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oh no
>that shirt
yikes...
Not vidya
>VR
>Augmented reality
>Yadda yadda yadda
retard
click a random point
>I'm a strict materialist
>I believe our mind is just our body in action
>we should just count the number of neurons in the brain and match it to amount of processing power
>build enough computers in a rack and get the right algorithms and we will surely have AI
Yeesh. I thought this guy was supposed to be intelligent.
but john and john invented vidya
prove him wrong then
Choose your character Yea Forums
If you listen to Joe Rogan's podcast that's a clear strike against you. You might as well be a fucking green bubble.
The brain is not a computer and never will be, and reducing consciousness to just neurons is absurd. Materialism is untennable.
en.wikipedia.org
Quake guy has a serious case of reductive scientism. If we accurately understood what the mind and consciousness was there wouldn't be such a vigorous debate around it.
Does he seriously think AI scientists haven't thought up this "just throw computing power at it" before? That that's the only hurdle holding back true AI?
Personal fan of this convo as a sample alternative speculation
youtube.com
>I believe our mind is just our body in action
I mean that's a clumsy explanation but that's the gist of the definition of mind, yes
MY BOY CARMACK
>Not vidya
Zoom zoom.
As opposed to what? Shamanism? Like mystical alien ghosts infect your chakras and are why you feel sad sometimes?
Get a grip.
>if you don't believe in logical positivism you believe in voodoo
Why do fedorafags always take things to such extremes?
Will there ever be a team/company more influential to PC gaming/the FPS genre than id?
It's not a problem of philosophy. It's literally like saying
>well we don't know every minutia of metabolic process
>therefore the digestive system and rest of the body cannot be all that is involved in digestion and there bust be some kind of spiritual digestion that allows you to absorb food
Origin Systems
Ultima and Wing Commander which inspired all RPGs and space sims to ever come afterwards
>materialism of the gaps
I mean consciousness is studied in neuroscience in both animal and human models, and can be manipulated in physical studiable terms.
I just don't see where there's space for spirits, humors, and ichors in these fields.
>Broke
Joe Rogan is a funny everyman who discusses interesting things
>Joke
Joe Rogan is a low iq faggot dude weed retard
>Cope
Joe Rogan might be a low iq faggot retard but he's providing a comfortable and unapologetic environment for modern men who are utterly alienated by current-day social trappings
>Woke
Joe Rogan is the figurehead of an insidious CIA splinter project and the man is two degrees of separation from Satanist, military commander, and MKUltra champion Michael Aquino (google this) and one degree of separation from less satanic MKUltra kingpins.
>Yea Forums
not vidya
Holy shit joe rogan is such an unfunny faggot. No wonder the onions boy beta cucks on Yea Forums think he's cool. What an awesome short, bald, closeted gay father-figure.
Zoomer jannies don't even know who Carmack is, sad!
>Woke
So he's friends with white Hoteps, who wouldn't be. Think of all the ceremonial daggers and headdresses you could be gifted.
>white Hoteps
>white
umm sweaty, wh*toids don't worship saturn/kronos/moloch/set.
That's a different group you're thinking of.
Everything done by biology can be done by technology and vice versa. Magic isn't real, so yes, artificial brains, with all that entails, are a possibility. Everything works off of the same principles, no matter how those principles are applied.
He offered no alternative speculation, he just said "hold on, I'm uncomfortable with your views, lets not jump any guns", but took a long time to say it. You're right, though, that we don't understand enough. However, that doesn't mean an intellectual free-for-all is appropriate.
I mean are we talking about just a computational neural network, or like an actual artificial brain?
Both are possible in theory, but a physical artificial brain would probably have little difference from the genuine article.
And both would be extremely difficult and is progressing at an absolute snails pace, but that goes without saying.
what did he mean by this
>No wonder the onions boy beta cucks on Yea Forums think he's cool. What an awesome short, bald, closeted gay father-figure.
this is so fucking specific, are you ok user?
WHO IS JOHN CARMACK!? HOW COULD YOU CALL HIM IMPORTANT TO VIDEO GAMES, HE MAKE NO NINTENDO GAME
I think it's a sick Zelda reference
Joe is an idiot.
He really is painfully unfunny, but his guests can be good. It all depends on who he's talking to
dude remember that one time elon musk smoked weed with him.
Get your computer pregnant.
>The brain is not a computer and never will be
Are you trying to tell me that the brain doesn't compute and process information?
Why is he so smug?
Watching now. Nice to have a decent guest that can talk Joe's ear off.
>rogan
pseud shit for edgy teens who think they're smart
Animals are that. Humans can abstract. If that is what the human mind was, then you wouldn't be able to imagine yourself doing an action without doing that action.
who was in the wrong here?
youtube.com
>joe 'there's nothing wrong with fucking kids' rogan
based
Yeah, I clicked the wrong video because I was going by old memory. My bad. Didn't mean to make people watch something unrelated.
But there was a money shot (imo) analogy from that guy in one of those series of videos. It's an analogy of finding out the nature of mind to trying to find out what exactly is money and the "value" in it is by dissecting a coin. You could count the metals in the coin, but no amount of precision will find the holy grail "value" element or proper mixture that makes money valuable money. Because money is valuable by having an interactive process of circulating in society and existing in a context of greater society. It can only fully be realized by an interactive process and by elements outside of the coin itself.
Is that true of mind? Maybe not. Though it's an idea on to something, personally. If you stuck a kid in a dark room from birth to adulthood how aware would they really be? The point is vulgar materialist scientism wouldn't even think to ask this type of question. It only wants to speculate as mind as an isolated brain in a jar. That a computer will flip on to fully conscious and ready to go if you get the right copy combination. If any sort of outside element beyond this jar was key it would totally go over the heads of current thinking.
september is always boomers delight no matter what
september is boomers month
What makes you think abstract thinking doesn't involve neurons, especially those in the frontal cortex and other areas involved with planning.
There is also a well-studied mirror neuron system, as in populations/networks of neurons that activate when performing an action and also when observing or planning that same action.
not joe. bruce is a little bitch that people overrated
humans are animals genius cunt
literally who?
also joe rogan is a cia asset
I mean the mind is what we call the processes of the brain. If you raised a child in absolute darkness they would probably pass critical periods for the development of visual processing, but even Helen Keller was conscious and aware without seeing or even hearing.
I'm pretty sure there are also plenty of animal studies in that area if you want to sate that interest for whatever reason.
zoom zoom
Did they try DMT?
It was impressive how he kept on talking without Joe interrupting with a MMA reference.
But did they talk about chimps? At least once?
man carmack was jacked, what a fuckin chad
he proved you wrong user
his mind is CLEARLY not processing any information
I can't watch this
I am afraid I end up pissed
Carmack is too pure, and Rogan is an asshat
got em
forced meme cock sucker
zoooooom
3 minutes in
Rogan already overwhelmed by Carmack absolute beast oratory
You know Rogan is a huge Quake fan, right?
>man I sure love showing people in this thread how much I love sucking dick
yeah
the thing is I really like Carmack, and I see him in a vulnerable position here, because he is basically trying to dudebro his expertise in some way
I am only 5 minutes in, and I am cringing so hard already
but when will Joe Rogan say Woman Chick, he has to because of Twitter
The truth is huge Quake fan or not Joe damn near couldn't be more different from John.
John knows martial arts.
does carmack talk about per pixel shading techniques, fresnel falloff, and subsurface scattering for 4 hours? 'cause otherwise i dont care.
Carmack is such a chad.
he probably put that on just to be """""hip""""""
this programme is clearly not his audience
>Magic isn't real,
Why do the jews keep pedalling this lie?
All I see is metaphysics and a call to fret about things that don't matter. Postmodern philosophy loves to ask and dwell upon questions that don't matter. The notion that consciousness is a complicated, whole-body (or beyond) system is pure fanciful reasoning with absolutely nothing to back it up but sophistry, like that coin analogy. It's just po-mo trying to flex, like they always do. It's not a clever thing to constantly stop people and go "ok that's cool and all BUT WHAT IF". But hey, you've done it, so WHAT IF? Well, we haven't figured anything out yet thinking on that what if, so maybe you can go work on that by yourselves instead of trying to convince everyone that your metaphysics is worth their attention.
I have far more to say on this subject, like actual theories and relevant insights, but I do so hate the line of thinking you have proposed, also, none of this is video games.
He was so cute.
>John Carmack co-founded id Software and was the lead programmer of its video games Commander Keen, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Quake, Rage and their sequels.
>not vidya
Zoom off somewhere else.
Pretty sure jews would pedal the opposite.
That weird mystic jewish tree shit.
why was he so handsome
Nah bro, they're afraid of wizardom.
>don't piss me off, i'm close to leveling up and you look like just enough experience points
>john carmack's shirt
he's just being ironic right
see
Joe is liberal as fuck and he's friends with Alex Jones. Just because two people are different doesn't mean they can't find a common ground and have a good conversation.
I would say that type of thinking goes back very far. Fuck metaphysics, if I have to sit through one more lecture about "yeah but Plato was all like where do colors even exist, man" my eyes will roll into the back of my head.
>Joe Rogan might be a low iq faggot retard but he's providing a comfortable and unapologetic environment for modern men who are utterly alienated by current-day social trappings
absolute cringe
>john carmack
his voice sounds so fucking wierd
Let him be a cringy boomer, he's earned it.
He was also a revolutionary programmer and a very large percent of modern games include technology and/or code that can trace their origin to Carmack's work.
His programming techniques allowed the PCs of the time to compete with specialized video-game consoles
He has no bass in his voice.
Very underwhelmed by this.
Not enough Id stories and too many "well the future will probably...." jargon. I mostly blame Rogan for these questions, every other Carmack interview he delves into these topics.
He was also heavily involved in the development of the Rift and helped usher in the VRsets we have now. The game industry would literally not get as far as it did without Carmack.
>being freinds with a con artist piece of shit that harrasess families that were killed by school shooter
see
Hey we talkin bout Alex or Joe?
Nah, just playin.
How can Tim Sweeney even compete?
Prefer it that way honestly, stories aren't gonna change all that much so you can always go to old interviews. I like seeing his prospects for the near future and knowing what he's planning on doing. That's new information and more fun than rehashing "i'm a sociopath who B&Es and kicks cats"
it's a proper old school nerd voice and it suits him so well unlike Stallman. I have listened to him for hours, Facebook giving him such a small timeslot at conferences is such a shame
you can tell he did speech therapy during the 2000s because he doesn't stutter or do his HMM tic like he used to
No kidding, fucking mirin those forearms. Has he ever said if he lifted weights/trained or something?
Yea, he goes into it on the podcast.
Carmack is a dudebro. He's an autistic Chad genius.
>He was also heavily involved in the development of the Rift and helped usher in the VRsets we have now
well he did lots of good things for the game industry too, we don't need to shame him for that
he did Judo for years
man, Carmack is pretty fucking good at talking.
Carmack isn't speaking any differently than he usually does.
FUCK OFF YOU TOOL!
DON'T MIND IF I DO!
20 minutes in
Rogan completely lost control of the interview
it's over for him
being a smart person talking to rogan must be exhausting
He's been talking like this for 15 years now. He doesn't have his autistic tics anymore
>he and a few kids tried to steal computers from school
>he makes a detailed plan to use thermite to break open locks without triggering security
>he uses the school chemistry labs to make the thermite
>some fucking moron breaks a window open and triggers the alarm
>they all get arrested
>Carmack insists they would have gotten away with it with his plan
>His pych evaluation describes him as "a brain on legs"
>He gets put in a home for a year
I wish I was able to be this Chad
John Carmack haven't been video games for a long while now.
>Animals are that. Humans can abstract.
Sure as hell wasn't Humans that taught beavers how to build fucking fortress in rivers. Shut you dumb ignorant mouth little fagbag.
You cant argue with results. Carmack is a Chad.
>He hasn't jailbroken his brain to run Doom on it.
Is Carmack a turbo manlet?
"If the mind comes from the brain entirely, how come there are no intellectual seizures. Why hasn't anyone ever had a seizure that forced them to do math"
CAN YOU FUCK OFF THIS IS NOT VIDEO GAMES
Malfunctions rarely improve performance.
Is that a Joe quote? Jesus fuck
Never said it would improve. How come no one who has ever had a seizure has ever been intellectually stimulated during it? If the mind come from the brain, how come when the brain is experiencing abnormal electric activity the only result are physical and never cause the person experiencing it to do brain functions? No one has ever had a seizure that made them suddenly do math
Wouldn't seizures just be the brain's attempt to divide by zero?
see
*chokes you out*
So basically materialists are brainlets who don't want to pit in the work necessary to understand anything beyond a simple brain=computer metaphor?
No because I am attempting that now and I'm fine
>If the mind comes from the brain entirely
It probably doesn't, certain animals have shown retention of memory to specific circumstance even after their brain is entirely removed. If this applies to humans as well, then at least some of you comes from your body rather than just your brain.
see
>TALKING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES IS NOT VIDEO GAMES
So sad seeing aspiring jannies
based and workpilled youtube.com
not defending that idiot, just pointing out how much dick you suck
i like how some people are saying that he should've been episode 1337
look at all those buzzword!
How would you explain the work of Adrian Owen then? This guy was able to prove that supposedly braindead people could think, answer questions, and even do math?
Do you even know what a seizure is? From a specific neurobiological perspective?
That doesn't contradict the possibility that at least some of your reactions and such to certain, specific, stimuli are from your body rather than your brain, it's likely a combination of the two but when one is gone the other can still make it happen.
all the turbonigger underages saying this isn't video games should be banned. if you don't know who Carmack is, you are too young to be here or haven't lurked long enough to post.
Damn, didn't know he was based. Comparing brains directly to computers is a bit dumb because they don't operate on the same principles but AI is definitely possible, obviously, because natural intelligence exists. Even if we can't get computers as we know them now to be intelligent, we can just make synthetic brains instead.
>If we accurately understood what the mind and consciousness was there wouldn't be such a vigorous debate around it.
No shit, but a debate around it exists because there's good arguments for both sides. There's nothing wrong with a physicalist belief or a belief in mind-body dualism, what matters is that your belief in either is nuanced.
I just hate anyone who wants to play jannie. Nothing more pathetic than entering threads just to complain you don't want to see them. These type of people, if given any sort of power/authority, are the type of people to be selfish tyrants. Luckily they are just weak minded, weak bodied, incels
IT'S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE
Joe's idea for a boxing glove with haptic feedback was one of the few non-retarded things he's said, even if it's definitely been thought of before. Shit would be cash.
Wait what are you even referring to? Was this like behavioral observations? Because in that case there are neurons in the peripheral nervous system (as in outside the brain) that are greatly involved in movement behavior and would definitely still have LTP, the process by which neurons encode memory
50 minutes in
Rogan is obviously out, as expected
ZOOMER DETECTED
see
>your body remembers how to do math and answer abstract questions
And how do you support this claim? Show me a body of work to support this otherwise it's just you grasping at straws without evidence and asserting nonsense
Should have had Duncan on as well to tag in when Joe checks out.
Just because somebody is in a locked-in vegetative state doesn't mean they don't have consciousness.
That was the whole point of his research, to determine whether certain people trapped within that vegetative state are conscious or not, and to interact with them somehow if they are. His research doesn't seem to show or aim to show that "consciousness exists outside of the nervous system" or anything.
>They got caught because the fat kid got stuck in a window
It's almost surreal the life this guy has had.
I think he may be just referring to some behaviors being mediated by the spinal cord instead of travelling all the way up to the brain like the classic reflex arc.
Yeah, the PNS is still the nervous system but some people don't realize that because it's not the brain
Do you know what a forced meme is?
youtube.com
>man I can stop sucking all these dicks
>2 minutes in
>carmack is already TALKING
based
You assume they were in a generic, vegetative state with full brain function. He worked with people who were medically braindead, had shrunken, damaged brains that should not have been functional. He proved that even with all that damage that they were able to think abstractly, which proves then mind is not just a function of the brain at the very least which makes materialism seem a bit unreasonable
To clarify further, Owen used fMRI to verify that people in vegetative state were still aware. fMRI just measures blood flow to specific areas of the brain as a proxy for neural activity, as the brain sequesters blood to areas where populations of neurons are activated.
So the people he studied weren't "brain dead" like their brain was entirely shut off or something. By definition they were still aware.
You didnt address the coin question at all. You just glazed over it and pretended you did.
Just because you have extreme brain atrophy doesn't mean that the brain in it's entirety doesn't work. You can still respond to stimuli with extreme cortical atrophy. That does absolutely nothing to "prove" anything of the sort and to my knowledge the researcher makes no such claims.
Theres nothing post modern about the way society creates value in objects in a way thats not equal to its material worth. Its a really basic observation of commerce.
Why does being called a Zoomer tilt you so much?
Why do you cry like a bitch when someone calls you out for sucking dick?
Why do people listen to this guy? He literally had Bernie Sanders on the podcast.
>which proves then mind is not just a function of the brain
ok
>which makes materialism seem a bit unreasonable
how the fuck did you get here
either bait or underage
the zoom cries out in pain as he shitposts
That'd be like the only reason to listen. It was a pretty good interview, not like joe at all.
fuck off retard
carmack sounds like a fucking nerd
the faggot keeps sucking dick as he forces his shitty memes
The coin question is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with how the brain or mind functions. It doesn't even work as an analogy.
I'm not the one crying here. Multiple people here have called you out for your Zoomer comments and you keep redirecting them to the same post over and over.
You really shouldn't project this hard
see
So that's a no then.
That's a shame. I kind of just wanted it to be about his experiences in the industry, and the history of stuff like the making of Doom, and the early days of Id and whatnot. Say what you want about Cliff Blezinski, but his JRE episode was pretty comfy.
see
stop replying to the zoomerino
>2h30m
Podcasts were a mistake.
Carmack has never been one to dwell in the past
They're meant to be listened to while you do other things.
>Dude... Quake and weed lmao
>He doesn't listen to podcasts on his 1 hour commute to work
Shoo shoo neet
What should i do?
>Everything done by biology can be done by technology and vice versa
>Everything works off of the same principles
Nice how you can make such an affirmative statement with a complete and utter lack of any evidence or argument supporting it.
The Boomer/Zoomer memes have been around for over a year, they're so good, reddit stole them and made a whole board dedicated to it.
It is definitively not a forced meme. Piss off to your semenbrain threads.
While you're working? Driving? Playing a grindy video game? Anything that doesn't require your 100% full attention.
Materialism is the assertion that the mind only comes from the brain and there is nothing else to it.
Responding to stimuli is much different than abstract thought.
They were medically deemed braindead.
That doesn't excuse the lack of editing. No one is so interesting that their uninterrupted chatter is too sacred to be trimmed a little.
user it's dangerous not to give your 100% attention while driving. You should be arrested for reckless endangerment.
It's a podcast. That's the format, free flowing conversation. Don't like it, watch heavily edited tv interviews I guess
absolute based podcast. What other game devs could be on JRE?
Play some vidya, something that doesn't require too much of your attention. Work, clean the house, while you stare into the void and wonder why were you put on this earth, doing the dishes, etc.
You listen to it while doing chores/tradework or playing a non-intense videogame.
Oh wow another person that has no idea what the fuck 'post modern' philosophy even is lol.
I seriously wonder what people like you would think about the founders of the scientific method and their philosophical pursuits of delineating what constitutes sure knowledge and truth
>lmao des cart tez was a fag
>i think therefore I am, ok guy
>dude lmao what if my brain was like in a vat controlled by an evil genius
You are a literal retard and should read ONE, just ONE SINGLE BOOK
No, contrary to brainlet belief podcast doesn't mean unedited garbage. It's one overhyped sub genre but it's not the definition.
You realise that podcasts are supposed to be listened to while you do other things, right? You can't be that retarded, right?
I think the morally correct stance is anti-materialism. Sure, we do live in a physical world, and things are heavily affected by that, but that’s a bad thing. Having a physical, mortal form is sensory deprivation.
Because the only alternative is that nothing works off the same principles and we live in a fairy world where our bodies are magic. I can get you evidence but I'm not here to educate your dumb ass, read a book.
So fucking what? I still want to listen to something worth listening to.
>hurr long = good durr
>Oh wow another person that has no idea what the fuck 'post modern' philosophy even is lol.
blame jordan peterson
Well keep complaining on 4channel then. I'm sure Joe will see this and change his ways for you
Tim Sweeney.
Then don’t fucking listen to it. What the hell are you even whining about
ASMRfags should be purged
no one knows what post modern faggotry is
and no one knows who jordan faggotson is
>I haven't listened to it
>But it's long therefore it cannot be worth listening to
Amazin'
I'm sure Joe is very proud of you leaping to his defence from criticism by 4channel listeners.
>joe: what's dota
>jamie: uhhhhh a different game than quake
lmao
You're not the zoomer poster are you?
Don't engage if you aren't willing to put forth ideas and evidence. Not everything discussion has to be an argument. This could be a really engaging and fruitful conversation if people just had a bit more respect for one another
Mirin' those wrists.
>Materialism is the assertion that the mind only comes from the brain and there is nothing else to it.
???????????
You could at least read the fucking wikipedia page on it. There are so many things wrong with your claims I don't know where to begin.
First of all, The mind doesn't just come from the brain. As many people in this thread have already said your nervous system and PNS contribute as well.
Second of all, just because a brain is completely fucked up doesn't mean it's not functioning in some capacity. Here, I'll do your work for you.
This is probably the most ludicrous example of someone remaining conscious after severe brain damage. This doesn't prove dualism or anything of that sort. We don't understand how the brain fully works or how it interacts with or produces consciousness, that's a fact. It's entirely possible that even with a severely damaged brain consciousness can still arise from the brain alone. The article I linked talks about one specific example of how this might work in the "radical plasticity thesis" bit if you're curious, but there are many possibilities. It's far from an open and shut case.
Do you not listen to the radio?
>radio
fuck no, 24/7 commercial brainwashing
Since I wasn't born yesterday I can actually know that editing is important for a good programme.
>No wonder the onions boy beta cucks on Yea Forums think he's cool. What an awesome short, bald, closeted gay father-figure.
You ok user ? Wanna talk ?
Origin and Interplay were influential in a sense all your favourite games are ripping them off, but were never top sellers boasting a larger install base than Windows
>t.CNN
I didnt even know they were doing those VR simulations inside big warehouses. Im out of the loop.
How long before we go full Sword Art and people just lay in bed and gather with their friends in VR to watch TV together?
>programme
Go be a pretentious faggot somewhere else. You must be desperate for communication
It doesn't have to be the radio, just music while driving, anything. Do you always drive in total silence? If you've got friends in the car, do you refuse to talk or listen to what they're saying from fear of not paying 100% attention to your drive?
You could in theory build a conscious machines that gets pregnant when you cum in it.
Flesh isn't magical.
>friends
never ever
We're gonna needs a few more decades of neuroscience advancements before we can do that neural interface shit.
You're still just making a claim with no evidence
You're completely missing the point of Owen's research and his conclusions and I have no idea where you're getting this from.
The entire basis of his research is creating better tools to fight misdiagnosis, specifically people who are diagnosed as non responsive actually responding to yes and no questions via fMRI.
Nowhere can I find a statement from him saying "these people's brains should not have been working at all, they are effectively dead." And looking at the data from some of his papers supports this.
And importantly, no hypothesis, conclusion, or statement I can find suggests that consciousness is controlled or directed outside the nervous system. Literally his work is in misdiagnosis.
t. fox and friends
There is not a single chemist/scientist on the planet that can create life from scratch. They can act as the catalysts, but they cannot create atoms, functioning cells, or tissues synthetically. Not possible
Big influences aren't necessarily the big money makers. Actually, they usually aren't.
Anything having to do with metaphysics is also a claim with no evidence, it's purely conjecture. If lack of evidence dissuades you then you might as well not have this conversation at all.
>anime picture
>poster is retarded
like clockwork
>atoms
well that's not life, but yeah no shit
>cells
Seems to be progressing nicely
sciencemag.org
>Anything having to do with metaphysics is also a claim with no evidence
That's also correct, so there's no reason to assert one is true instead of the other
>that shirt
come the fuck on john
doom's influence is more easily tangible than system shock's and wing commander's
and justifiably so because one of those games broke the bank and the other one was the critical darling nobody played
Glad we agree. So what do you want to talk about now?
Yeah he's not all that fu-
>All that projection
The BRAIN is basically a funky computer, but you're right about the rest.
T.V cuck
Please don't post mr potato head here.
Reminder Alex Jones touted himself as a cuck on this shit
>WAAAAAAAAH HITLER WAS A MEANIE
>WAAAAAAAAH THIS GUY IS KKK
How /pol/ ever listened to that fat cunt I have no idea.
Hello Crowder
Ultima probably has a bigger influence on the game industry game-design wise than Doom
While Doom has a bigger technological influence
Wing Commander was a very popular game at the time too, relatively
the claustrum seems to be a hot neuroanatomical structure to research these days, I'd suggest looking it up for some interesting papers
What? You're stating your materialistic viewpoint like it's fact. I'm pointing out to you that it isn't
>missing the point of Owens research
You can set out to prove one thing and and still have implications beyond your hypothesis.
Of course their brains were not dead, they would be dead people, but they were the most damaged brains he could find and he was able to prove they could think abstractly and even reject gibberish as nonsense. Not saying materialism is disproven, just that there is evidence to suggest the mind had contributing factors outside of the brain
Just because they can't right now doesn't mean reality won't allow it. Cells are molecules arranged in a specific order. There is no law of physics preventing you from arranging molecules in the same order.
all the RPGs I really liked were more about subverting Ultima's influences than emulating them
that's still an influence
I'm not disagreeing about the more tangible part, just pointing out that being an influence isn't necessarily tied with monetary success. Some obviously are, like Mario or Zelda or Doom, but some are just games or any other media product that manages to influence other people to create far more profitable products while the original influence doesn't get that money.
If you think the terms "mind" and "brain" are interchangeable, you really have no business talking about this subject.
inb4 some retard posts some lay definition saying they're synonyms
Joe rogan and his dying kidneys. This guy has another 5 years to live max.
And I'm not here to take you seriously if you literally can't even posit an argument
Yeah I'll take his word over yours kiddo
>Joe Rogan
i never really got the appeal of him
his content is background TV tier
You're still missing the point, he studied people with brain damage yes but what makes you convinced that just because they had brain damage somehow all possible networks of conscious thought, with all their plasticity and recursiveness, are entirely obliterated with no recourse? Owen does no research suggesting that this is the case, and gives not even a passing statement suggesting this is so.
This doesn't give any evidence to your claim whatsoever.
The mind is a function of the brain. It is not magic.
I hope Joe invites him to eat some elk
I'm not the original poster, was just being facetious. But to be fair, we have reason to believe the physical exists, because of sensory information. We have no solid evidence for the metaphysical. In fairness you could call into question sensory data and claim that qualia itself is evidence for the metaphysical, but that's a very complicated topic. I more or less side with Daniel Dennett on that issue though.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Someone called him Bro Oprah
that's basically it
It was nice of Carmack to let Joe come on his podcast.
well it's more like it's the behavioral outputs of the nervous system
Allready watched that.
Pro tip: this still doesn't mean you cannot arrange molecules in a specific order to create a cell.
We had no reason to believe other galaxies or atoms existed either until we discovered ways to observe them, yet they still existed
i did DMT once which makes me the most intelligent person in this thread
Soon he'll die and take his wacky religious beliefs to the grave with him.
no you didnt
Nothing exists in a vacuum, but more commercial success the idea has it has proportionally more influence. Half-life would not exist without Doom, but HL's influence is arguably even bigger.
Possibly, I see it as a case of game designers growing up playing Ultima and going "fuck you dad"
Point to me the structure in the brain that results in the experience of qualia.
Well yes, we did.
Other galaxies and other atoms still behave and are observable in the same way that previously discovered ones are. Hence why people looked for them.
>brain on legs
So this is where he got his inspiration for the spider mastermind? This no-name psychiatrist has unknowingly granted us one the most iconic bosses in the history of video games.
but i did
Before people discovered how to observe atoms they might aswell have been magic. The same is true for the metaphysical. Just because you can't currently observe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I counted at least 2 patented Carmack MMMs in the interview
Who will replace the autism in this industry that it needs when Carmack is dead? Are there others like him or are they all just denied employment because they aren't socially hyperactive?
prove it
Why are you assuming it's one structure and not a huge complex net of functionally and structurally connected areas?
It'd be harder to say what structures aren't involved in such a vague topic.
This coupled with the fact that there are no brain disorders that make you think abstractly suggests that the mind has contributions outside of the brain at the least
Carmack hasn't been relevant in industry since Doom 3. He doesn't even make video games anymore. The kind of technological innovation he does is no longer relevant in video games. We have our tech already
Point to me a soul.
Not really. Before the onset of microscopy it was theorized that atoms were indivisible units of substance. I think the analogy was something impossible to cut in half anymore or something. Pretty soon after, they discovered atoms. It wasn't magic to them then and it isn't now.
lmao retard ppl start doing vr seriously now only because of him and his reputation
Rogan's show is really only worth watching for the guests anyway. I'd much rather listen to Carmack talk about driving sports cars for literally an hour completely unprompted than anything Rogan would have to say.
Obviously, but there's no reason to assume it does yet. The metaphysical might exist, but there's no reason to assume so. There is reason to assume the physical exists.
unrelated here
why the fuck do streamers pretend they are actually entertaining anyone? why do they pretend like they DESERVE your chat replies and your money.
all of these streamers are delusional weak willed people. who picture themselves "making it big" as a streamer and stop having real life responsibilities.
they sit there in their ass-sweat soaked gaming chair reading the chat and laughing without actually understanding what the fuck they just read.
the streamer is nothing but an awkward fuck who works at some shitty retail job that yaps on about absolutely nothing to you while you are just trying to buy something. the idiots in chat are somehow lower than these morons on a social level, and are incapable of seeing through this persons non-sense blabbing and over emphasized "thank you!" 's .
whats worse is that they are usually so fucking bad at the game they are playing you really wonder why they think so highly of themselves.
the viewers are just enabling the streamer and somehow making them even more jaded than they already are.
Those last two seem silly but I’m down with the whole materialist thing. As in the “mind/body division” that the west takes for granted is BS. Reason I think this is that my health has been all over the place and that ends up having a profound impact on my mind. An IBS flare will bring with it random ass emotional impacts, a certain infection messes with my thinking, etc etc. There’s only the body and all its systems are linked. I mean, what is “the mind” supposed to be, anyways? Your soul or something equally intangible/silly? Nah, it’s an entity emergent from from the physical cells in your brain. Thus physical, concrete changes will affect it as they are the source in the first place.
No, it would be much easier: all of them. There is no physical structure that can explain away the problem of perception. And no, that isn't the same our senses.
>theorized
You're missing the point here
Before observation it was only that, theory
there are theories about metaphysical things too that haven't yet been formally observed
the point is that just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there, and assuming we can currently observe everything is just being arrogant
>2+ hours
was there anything interesting in that?
Streamers and their viewers are all faggots
People started doing VR years ago and they all failed because VR is a dumb idea
Not familiar with Descartes?
Also, 'mind' is a more precise term, 'soul' has a lot of other potential implications that obfuscate what we're talking about.
Once again Owen's research does absolutely nothing to that claim as we discussed, and you don't even seem to know what you're talking about with that second claim.
>You can't shatter both kneecaps to become a faster runner, therefore the action of running is performed outside the body
Future of VR
Some bits about car modding and rockets.
Judo
Rage and time.
They're nice for driving, working, exercising.
There's plenty of unsolvable problems that have metaphysical theories to explain them, which people will dismiss out of their own arrogance in the assumption that only what has currently been observed is real
Yeah, the higher cortical areas are heavily involved in perception rather than sensation. For instance, the layers of the occipital cortex.
You seem awfully ignorant of neuro for someone seemingly so interested in the topic
rogan is based
youtube.com
He doesn't have to suggest anything, scientists make inferences based off of others people's work all the time. I think you are still missing the point
Thats not really joe rogan
Again, we are not talking about the stimulus you receive from your senses.
yeah i'm about 30 mins in and starting wish Joe wasn't such a quake boomer, it's like he stopped playing anything after quake 3
it looks like joe
>that haven't yet been formally observed
And will never be observed. Nothing metaphysical has ever been observed, thus is the point of Plato's metaphysics.
You can hem and haw about arrogance all you want, but there is no platonic heaven where colors hang out until they are called down to pair bond with objects.
This is what sets it apart from theories about things that are real.
Nope, my grandpa told me he saw that movie in the theaters and joe wasnt in it.
You can make a metaphysical theory to explain literally anything. Lets do a test run. Here's my explanation for dark matter. I believe that giant, but invisible (because they operate on a metaphysical plane) space ghosts place all the dark matter in the universe, and cast a spell on it to make it undetectable. I have no empirical proof for my theory right now, but it does serve to explain how dark matter operates and why it's not easy to detect. Does this theory sound good to you?
>the mind is just the brain dude
>brain experiences electrical storm and the only reactions are physical and never affecting thought
Good one
Not him but you're retarded.
>And will never be observed. Nothing metaphysical has ever been observed
that's exactly the type of arrogance im talking about
Just because one particular metaphysical theory might be wrong it doesn't mean they all are
Neither am i, those areas don't just receive input from sensory organs you know.
And let me clarify, not only does he not suggest anything of the sort, his work and results alone make absolutely no suggestion or support for that ridiculous claim either. If anything the work alone serves to work against it.
His thought experiments are very flawed. He cannot imagine not having neurons. One cannot imagine not having a body just as much as you cannot imagine not having a mind.
It's really amazing that they managed to swap Shaub's face with Joe.
user, we're talking about conscious experience.
See
Did my post not sufficiently show that just because a metaphysical theory explains some feature of reality doesn't mean it's worth consideration on face value?
>all seizures are the same bro
Yes, no kidding. You do realize perception is heavily studied in neuroscience?
>t.onions boy beta cuck
College has forever fucked you into super concrete ways of thinking why do you just get down on some mystic shit man do some dmt like joe or head over to \x\ and try some occult shit out be more convincing then arguing something that the other side can't win because of the time period were in
That's nonsense. The malicious demon thought experiment demonstrates very clearly the existence of consciousness.
Just because you can make up one theory that sounds dumb doesn't mean any metaphysical theory is dumb
There's actually a few medical classes of seizures, yes. So what?
HON HON HON
what?
But not the exsistance of consciousness with a physical brain.
Are you just pretending to be retarded?
Is this a bloodborne tv series / movie??
Okay, so give me an observed metaphysical theory. One that doesn't involve biology or chemistry or physics. Just a solid observable metaphysical event.
There might be actually entertaining streamers with personality, but most of them are vapid idiots.
Look at an average streamer's screen: chat, their stupid face with cam filters on, any other visual clutter and shitty animations when someone donates. It's tasteless shit. The game is always interrupted with "hey, how are you" "Thank you"s. it's annoying.
I can't imagine anyone liking that. Also ""gamers"" generally have no sense of style and have shitty taste in everything.
He's the modern day Socrates.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
And none affect thought. No neurological conditions make you experience abstractions. If the mind was purely brain activity, you would think that something as severe as a seizure would cause the victim to experience abstract thought at least once
Depends what you mean by "metaphysical"
Also depends what you mean by "observed"
He's an aging dudebro boomer.
I'm not saying metaphysical theories are inherently dumb, I'm saying they're not worth considering based solely on the reason that they explain things, because a theory that explains something without evidence is worth nothing. The purpose of my post wasn't to make a theory that sounded dumb, it was to make up a theory that sufficently explained a feature of reality even though it was made up on the spot.
If you're trying to find the culprit in a murder case and you have a complex theory that sounds nice and accuses someone of the crime, but isn't actually based on any evidence, that theory is worthless.
Do you mean without?
There appears to be some link between brain function consciousness, which is to say that everything we know to have consciousness has a functioning brain, which is to say that consciousness appears to be tied to life.
But also we can really only check with things that are alive in the first place, so it isn't even clear that that's a prerequisite.
>No neurological conditions make you experience abstractions.
Not him, but what about psychedelics? Not exactly a neurological condition, but it's clearly a purely chemical interaction that causes the brain to think in the abstract.
>a theory that explains something without evidence is worth nothing
well of course, the problem is people will deny evidence that points to something metaphysical on the very basis that it's metaphysical so it can't possibly be true anyway
Moron.
It's impossible for empirical evidence to point towards a metaphysical theory, literally impossible, for the same reason science can't make any claims about the metaphysical.
If you've got a single example I'd love to hear it.
I think you misunderstand what he means by "abstraction".
Which streamer fucked you in the ass lol
Unrelated is right, gtfo lil bitch nigga
Depends what you mean by "metaphysical"
Well, since you're not defining abstractions I assume you mean complex thought involving planning, situational manipulation of some kind, perception, etc. Normal brain activity that requires such complex interplay of different networks and pathways requires non-synchronous activation. To my knowledge seizures are excessively causing synchronous activation. Why then would you theorize that abstract planning or whatever you're even trying to describe would result from a seizure?
There's plenty of evidence of perceptual "auras" and illusions arising though.
I mean the textbook definition. There is no empirical evidence about the non physical, be definition.
lmao
Well if a ghost were to show up on command and everyone could see it that would be empirical evidence of the metaphysical, if you consider ghosts metaphysical, but obviously that hasn't happened
Ever heard of math?
Math doesn't have anything to do with empirical evidence.
If ghosts showed up in the physical world then it'd be evidence of the physical, not the metaphysical. See what I mean when I say it's impossible for there to be empirical evidence? For something to be empirically verified, it HAS to be in the realm of the physical. Applied in reverse, if something has been empirically verified, it IS physical.
God he sounds like such a fucking soulless salesman now. That VR segment was hard to listen to with how goddamn hard he was trying to make it seem like VR is more than a glorified tech demo. And Joe constantly showing how out of touch he is on so many topics is disgusting.
Are you the same guy? My original argument is that the mind is a product of the brain and not a product of a soul/magical energy.
Than one user said "Point to me the structure in the brain that results in the experience of qualia."
I said "point me to a soul" after which was implied that Descartes's though experiments proved the exsistance of a soul without a body which I argued isn't true because one cannot actually imagine not having a body.
All his other though experiments do not actually argue against the body and mind being seperate.
So if you're saying that the body and mind are not seperate than I agree with you.
Why does Yea Forums unironically watch joe rogan? My dad watches this fuck and he's a 60 IQ boomer. You're not a senile boomer.. right?
That's why I said it depends on your definition of metaphysical
It could be percieved in the minds of people but leave no physical trace
But then you could argue that your mind is physical so to be percieved it must be physical
If you think anything that is percieved is physical, well then I guess there is no such thing as the metaphysical, as far as we'll ever know
>Math doesn't have anything to do with empirical evidence
Now you're getting it.
That's no way to talk about your father.
Unless you're 15
I mean thinking abstractly in the sense that you are trying to make sense of what you don't know, or are unsure of, in some way. Doing math, pondering philosophy, pondering science. That is a fair point though, the mind could just be the sum of all brain functions currently in process. We just dont know for sure. Thanks for not bring a vitriolic asshole in your reply btw.
I have a retarded 50 iq cousin that breathes air. You don't breathe air do you?
Next you'll tell me this isn't Tom Cruise.
youtube.com
I was introduced to him through my boomer dad. I enjoy listening to him on my own now.
>well then I guess there is no such thing as the metaphysical, as far as we'll ever know
Well then I'm glad we cleared all that up.
What's this thread about again? Joe Rogan or something?
Because he has entertaining guests and he is really stupid, which is great because he makes extremely intelligent people explain complex theories in baby terms that tards like me have a chance of comprehending. Also the /heem/ memes are fun
BOOMER
>not breathing pure oxygen in your oxygen tent for enhanced mental and physical performance
People don't define metaphysical as "what can be percieved" though. The question of whether the mind is physical or metaphysical is still there
>after which was implied that Descartes's though experiments proved the exsistance of a soul without a body
>without a body
You said that, not me. Again, as far as anyone can tell, you need to be alive and have a functioning brain to have a mind. The operative phrase is "as far as anyone can tell", because we have no way of testing this concept on anything else at all.
What kind of an ultra brainlet faggot do you gotta be to think the mind is some metaphysical shit? Poke your brain with a toothpick and see if you can still use your metaphysical abilities, faggot.
What would it even mean for it to be metaphysical?
Mind isn't brain
Shut the fuck up
>the mind could just be the sum of all brain functions
Which is basically the definition of the mind as it stands today.
It's a hypothesis though, let's make that clear
Good one.
So your implication is a soul that dies with the body / a soul that cannot exsist without a body?
I'd say it's far more logical to assume that the entire brain is responsable for conciousness.
the materialist view is that you, your conciousness, is a product of the physical universe
for your mind to be "metaphysical" means that it isn't, which could mean alot of things, because metaphysical isn't really defined well, it could mean you have a soul
brainlet
>hur dur the mind isnt the brain hurrrrr
that doesnt mean anything
What an ignorant thing to say.
I just explained what it meant
Is there any reason to assume the mind isn't the product of the physical universe?
No, the definition is the cognitive processes of the brain. You can observe these processes and how they chance scientifically, as well as how they affect other processes.
If the mind was metaphysical it would have no observable effect on neural measurements, behavior, etc
Looking Glass / Origin would be another.
Cyan might be another for Myst and their aspirations for URU
Valve would be another but not for Half-Life, but the Steam platform, born out of their failed aspirations for Prospero, partly inspired from Myst
No you didnt, you dumb faggot. If this is you you said it could mean a lot of things. You are literally saying nothing.
Well, this thread took an interesting turn.
I didn't fucking invent the definition, don't get all pissy with me
Stop watching streamsluts and actually watch a real faggot play games for an audience
This criticism is pretty much only centric to girl streamers. A cunt like Aris is great at fighting games, and he won't refrain from shitting on games he was given for free to review live. BawkBaSoup speedrunning like 7ish Survival Horror games back to back and even plays Outbreak with viewers is also a fun watch
I hate eceleb friend simulators, but there are a good spread of entertaining streamers out there
Other than misinterpreting results from neuro research 2nd or 3rd hand and being extremely vague about it, no.
>So your implication is a soul that dies with the body / a soul that cannot exsist without a body?
No user, I never suggested anything of the sort. All I have stated is that the only things we can know to have consciousness are sentient beings. If you want to get particular, you can only truly know that YOU have consciousness. Anything outside of that is an extrapolation that requires some degree of assumption.
You can observe the brain, you can't observe the mind. You can't observe thoughts, you can percieve your brain doing things when you think, not neccessarily the same thing
ghosts, apparitions, near-death experiences, religion
You can look up the definition of mind vs brain on Google I'm not gonna bother trying to explain it to you especially if you act like a retard
For Valve I'd say the Orange Box in particular. It was like the holy trinity for FPS. One action FPS, one puzzle FPS, one multiplayer FPS, all three of each ended up becoming huge influences in the industry.
>ghosts, apparitions, near-death experiences, religion
Holy FUCK, kill yourself retard.
Just because you are uneducated, doesn't mean things you are ignorant of are meaningless.
stop chimping out
Ya call me uneducated when this nigger is talking about ghosts now to prove his point, fuck off you god damn pathetic idiots.
That hasn't been the case since Aristotle, but nice try.
You didn't present it either. You are ignorant, hence.
Well than I agree with you.
I thought you were making the assumption that consciousness can exsist without a body. I know Descartes proposed it can but I'd like to challange that with that he cannot really imagine not having a body, brain and neurons.
Don't blame others for your own lack of knowledge.