How would you have fixed these games Yea Forums?

>WW
Give it another year of development, make combat more complex like the 2D titles.
>TP
Make it so that you don't RESPAWN IN THE EXACT SAME ROOM when you die, make puzzles more complex, add an extra plot arc between Snowpeak and the end, and make Zant the only villain.
>SS
Cancel it and make WW 2 instead.

>>SS
>Make it uncanon.
Wait, I changed my mind: focus all the effort into making TP2 as it was supposed to be until Miyamoto fucked everything up.

>SS was supposed to be TP2
tell me more user. ive not ever heard about this

>wind waker
add at least 3 times more enemy variety. make the dungeons more unique in theme and less generic. give the islands more content and make em bigger. fuck it just finish the damn game, give it some meat on its bones for christ's sake. also make the difficulty less braindead

>TP
take out all that intro bullshit, just let us get straight to the action, remove the horseshit about the wolf

>SS
make the sky controls better, and if that's not possible just remove the fucking sky. fewer tutorials, make fi shut the hell up once in a while

as usual, the tripfag is retarded

You havent proved me wrong

Botw confirmed for mediocre as usual.

If you like botw you have bad taste in zelda.

filtered

>No ugly graphics
>use Cell Shaded graphics

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Aonuma wanted to make a Majora's Mask-tier sequel with TP. Miyamoto wanted something different, something gimmicky involving the Wii Zapper and had the TP2 plan scrapped to make Link's Crossbow Training. After that they decided to take away the elements left over and created SS from them.

>WW
WW HD fixes most of the main issue's pretty well. Triforce hunting is less tedious, changing wind direction is less repetitive and sailing was made faster. Prevent enemies from being knocked down or knocked out of your combo before it finishes.
>TP
Make the intro shorter, in fact make a lot of the cutscene sequences shorter. give dungeon items more use out of the dungeon they're in. Make the Twilight sections not just boring collectathons, and replace wolf songs with a less repetitive and annoying mechanic.
>SS
Create a real overworld that isn't just the sky and a few interconnected islands. move side missions away from skyloft. Free up the combat by adding more combat mechanics and remove having every single enemy need to be hit in exactly one way to deal damage.

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>in fact make a lot of the cutscene sequences shorter.
There's a skip button there for people like you.

People wouldn't need to skip them if they weren't half an hour long.
They're all noticeably longer than any other zelda game. The story is good, so skipping it entirely would have a negative effect. They just need to condense it a bit.

>WW
Add the cut dungeon. Keep all the changes from WWHD. The game's fantastic as is.
>TP
Cut down on content bloat like bug hunting, mandatory minigames, and flashy sword techniques you rarely need to use. Replace them with mini dungeons and generally more areas to explore.
>SS
Fine-tune motion controls so they're actually fun and give the option to turn them off. Expand the sky, add tons of islands to explore. Make the main areas bigger and more interesting.

I would quit that open world meme and focus on making good dungeons instead of hundreds of baby tier shrines. Probably cut back on healing food's potency or at least make it harder to pause the game to fully heal yourself with your inventory of way more food than 4 potions. Nerf flurry rush and bomb arrows, those two are the solutions to virtually any enemy, including bosses, and extremely easy to pull off. Less Korok seeds, there comes a time where diminishing returns has long settled and the player gives no crap about the next thing they have hundreds of. Better final boss, Dark Beast Ganon might be the worst final boss in a mainstream game in a very long time. Enemy diversity is a big one. Even the recurring minibosses are endless recolors and half the time you have enemies in areas they ought not to appear, i.e. fire enemy in fire area? Okay. That same fire enemy everywhere else? Nah. Maybe less attention to weapon durability or more weapons that are permanent. I got no motive to fight another of the same enemies, eating up weapon durability, for another disposable weapon. Fix the difficulty curve. After Great Plateau, everything can be played in your sleep.

We're not talking about that game.

I do think there should've been more cutscenes focused on Link. Midna was a great character but Link didn't get as much spotlight as her imo.

I honostly fucking loved skyward sword
People like to talk a lot of shit about it
Ya sure that boss you had to fight like 8 times was annoying
But the other bosses?
THE OTHER BOSSES?
HOLY FUCK NIGGA
Skyward sword had some of the best bosses in any zelda game

Twilight princess was great, had to restart my game near the end since a puzzle stopped working and their was no way to fix it, literally no one else online had seen it. Was in that temple where you had to control statues i think
Kinda killed my enjoyment

Wind waker was good. Bosses sucked, Puzzles were kinda bad. and exploration got tedious after a while.

I've been thinking about how to fix SS for a long time and I think I got it.

>make the overworld connected to the sky, and where you drop off the loftwing is where you enter the world. no more goddess statue warps.
>also the loftwing is 5x faster and you don't have to use motion controls to use it.
>only 2 imprisoned fights, one at the start and one at the end.
>you can now tackle any of the 3 goddess sword dungeons in any order
>add a boss to the sky keep dungeon
>all of the shit like the tadtones and stealth mission are now optional and doing them all unlocks a fully powered up master sword
>during the climax where you have to save zelda from ghirahim there's no more barriers that stop your progress for no reason
>to enter the buddha temple you now have to use the back in time portal to actually give it some use instead of it being a tease
>remove dousing
>WAY less interruptions from fi

that should fix most of its problems.

not made them. the series was perfect at LttP, Link's Awakening was a cute little thing and then it was dead. fuck OoT, Fuck MM, fuck the N64, fuck 3D

Fix the triforce shards in WW and write Zelda after transforming better rather than losing all character and turning into a damsel
Haven't played the other two as every time I try I'm just bored for thirty minutes then turn it off

>remove dousing
It's an optional feature. Nobody forces ou to use it.
>WAY less interruptions from fi
When did she even interrupt that often? Navi was tons of times more intrusive and she isn't even as annoying as memed to be.

You forgot
>Soundtrack
>Story where everything interesting has already happened before the game started
It's honestly an Ubisoft game.

I say just scrap BotW. Fuck open world Ubisoft Bethesda shit. Zelda had exploration. Less and less as time went on but nothing compares to the sheer gap between
>open world so open it's fucking nothing
and
>shrines so linear that SkyWard Sword would say they're too straightforward, many times due to their short length next to whole dungeons

>Navi was tons of times more intrusive

This is simply incorrect

>WW
keep sailing but add a port town hub that's connected to mainland Hyrule and remove the quicktime attacks, also use a different artstyle closer to the Zelda 1/2 manuals
>TP
third Hero of Time game that resembles the Spaceworld demo, Ganondorf is an antagonist but not the main baddie
>SS
don't make it, commission From Software to make a new Zelda instead

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I kinda liked SS when it came out. I’d get rid of the glowing orb bullshit where the things chase you, fix the finicky sword charging mechanic, and add a whole lotta shit to the skyworld cuz it was SO fucking empty. Maybe make the groundworld a little more open too, but there’s still some fun to be had in SS. I loved the hub town and characters.

>This is simply correct
Fixed

>commission From Software
>he doesn't remember all the shitty parts of DS1's mid-endgame, the hopeless nostalgia pandering of DS3 or all the other problems they shouldn't introduce to Zelda

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Did you even play skyward sword? Fi was the most intrusive assistant to ever grace the series.

I did. Assuming your batteries aren't low, she barely showed up. At best she tells you there's a new area.

What

>Fi was the most intrusive assistant to ever grace the series.

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>Elder God tier
Phantom Zelda
>God tier
Midna
>Great
King of Red Lions
>Good
Tatle
Fi
>Meh
Elzo
>Bad
Navi

I never found Navi all that annoying. Fi, however was even easier to ignore

Fi doesn't interrupt you after the first dungeon much at all, definitely not more than Navi in OoT.

>>SS
>Don't make it? This one isn't salvageable.
This.

Fire Aonuma.

You don't have to dowse. You can point at a location and go to it, but getting there is no less difficult than any other Zelda. If anything it's more difficult because the areas you have to explore are much more complex and full of puzzle elements. People awe at SotC, which has an extremely similar optional mechanic similar to dowsing, but the world doesn't challenge you between colossi like Skyward Sword does between dungeons.

Does Fi pop out and tell you every step of the way how to go about your mission? No. There are only 2 times in the whole game where she might overstep that boundary and it only happens after you are given a chance to figure it out on your own.

>WW
Another year of development should basically iron out its myriad of problems.

>TP
Make the AI a bit more aggressive and make a game over mean something. Otherwise, HD nailed it.

>SS
Make Fi shut up and only fight Imprisoned once. Beyond that, it's good enough at what it tried to be, for better or worse. Not gonna try to turn it into a proper Zelda because pffffhahahaha holy fuck, no. Ain't got time to write that essay.

Fi usually interrupts if you're so retarded you can't solve the puzzle. If you can do it within a century, she doesn't say shit.

You hit some of the nails but there's far too much wrong in BotW to keep in one thread

How would user fix Breath?

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I don't really understand how she's a flaw I just played it last night and she's one of the better aspects. She only gets in your face if it takes you an absurdly long time to figure out the easy puzzles

>WW
Reduce the number of islands, shorten the triforce shard quest by 70%, getting rid of Tingle's role entirely
make enemies not have invincibility while knocked on their ass
Make fire and ice island the key to the third pearl
Make SPLOOSH into a proper battleship game instead of bullshit 4 Guess RNG
make the Storm wrecked island something more than just a raft and a goron
Put the bottle, piece of heart, and triforce chart somewhere other than on a fucking malo boat
make the final ganon fight actually have opportunities to counterattack/outmanuever ganon, rather than waiting for zelda to do everything and being given QTE's
remove the first visit to forsaken fortress entirely
get rid of needing to finish 3 temples before you can travel anywhere in the boat
remove the asinine USELESS grappling hook animation
quick sail
hero mode

1/3

Fi meant nothing and wasn't really a bother, the battery thing was just a meme, like Navi and that Owl.

Worst Zelda characters are Tingle and to an extent, Lana.

>Fi
Are you so dumb it took you THAT long to solve SS puzzles? You know you don't need to click the button if you don't want to. She only gives hints if your retard self takes so long on piss easy puzzles that the game thinks you need handholding, which is proven true if you take long enough for Fi to sound.

What was the glitch? Did the game freeze when you tried to activate it?

Don't. Nuke Japan a thousand times and then nuk whoever the fuck started this open world meme shit. Fuck GTAV, fuck MGSV, all those sucked compared to their predecessiors.

Lots of Skyward Sword players blocking out all the times you're given information and Fi pops out to literally repeat it to you.

>camera pans to treasure chest for 5+ seconds
>Fi: There's a 95% chance that chest contains the key to the top of the shrine.

>BotW
>Fixable

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TP > SS > WW

>WW
Option A: Remove the Hyrule Flood concept and add continents to curb the cookie cutter island in every 8x8 grid autism.
Option B: Keep the Hyrule Flood concept and cut out islands so that Hyrule's geography doesn't have this funky unbelievable spire topography. Make some of the existing islands bigger. Studying real world elevation maps to help envision a real Hyrule flood would have helped. Also less sailing simulator. You could literally do anything else irl while you're waiting to get from a to b.
>TP
This is a hard one as I still don't understand what it is with TP that I find awkward after all these years. The wolf isn't a wrong idea but could have been handled better I suppose. Also Hyrule is way too separated by canyons. There are portions where the game feels too dominated by its visuals and less by good design aesthetic (the forest temple looked fucking ugly with its jungle theme and vines everywhere, whereas I remember the fire temple being a solid execution)
>SS
No one should ever have to play a game with motion controls ever again. The sky exploration was 90% shittier than WW ocean exploration. The land exploration had a rocky beginning and slowly became tolerable. Lanayru was the best province.

It also goes without saying that the devs should give an actual shit about making boss fights challenging and not "stab the weak point" filler

They're all already perfect, so is any other 3D Zelda game

What's that, once?

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>Lots of Skyward Sword players blocking out all the times you're given information and the player is stupid enough to click the Fi button
Fixed

>TP
do what TP HD did and shorten the number of wolf sections
Give Illia a little more sidestory/relevancy to the main plot. Youve got this qt childhood friend who basically gets sidelined 1/3rd of the way through the game
make more cool stuff to find in Lake hylia, so swimming feels more fleshed out. Yah its cool you can actually swim underwater now but why bother besides going to the water temple
More snowboarding chances., ie More courses
make morpheel actually try to attack you
fishing in Lake hylia maybe? could be cool, dunno if its be easy to implement
again, hero mode
do more stuff with link and saving the village, it was cool as fuck seeing Colin's dad hurt and having them all afraid of you as a wolf
more stuff to do in the desert, so the spinner is more useful
make the dragon fight better. Dont make him pause so long after using his fire breath, so you actually have to zip behind him to get on his back. The fight itself is cool as fuck but braindead easy after awhile
more use of the twin grappling hooks

Not those anons but it's really not that much, like at all. Played the game & those cases are more common at the start but they're really, really few in total. I probably got Navi telling me to beware Wallmasters more.

Forgot to add: Wind Waker should have had Hyrule exploration.

No, i think it was something with a light or mirror or beam puzzle or something? I couldn't move the thing that needed to be moved basically.

>Lots of Skyward Sword players blocking out all the times
>blocking
Not SS fan but Fi is exaggerated. Fi wasn't so bad. But then again, I ended up skipping through her dialogue not listening to most (if not all) of what she had to say, and I found her dancing skills a bit lacking. So I guess she isn't that great of a character, until the end where you actually start to acknowledge her existence as something more than a hindrance

Maybe you're just making that up? How many times does she interrupt you in gameplay? Only one time I recalled, besides batteries, was that time I sat down on that seat and she said there's no time to rest, which froze time and let me heal even when enemies are mid-air. It was funny.

Anyone who unironically likes Skyward Sword should off themselves desu.

6-8 Formal Dungeons each with a new Big Item or Sheikah Slate Glyph. Each should be like the Hookshot or one of the big four starter glyphs in changing how you view and interact with the world. I.e. Pyrokinesis blue sheikah fire glyph, electrokinesis glyph for limited metal conductive charger orbs, etc. Dash boots from Link to the Past tied to stamina with combat and travel uses as well as puzzle shit(i.e. clearing timed traps)

Double the amount of weapon move-sets. Differentiate hammers/axes from big swords. Dual wield weapons. So on. Double the amount of enemies from in depth serious combatants(Iron Knuckles, Wall Masters) to more low tier wild life(tektites, like-likes)

Double amount of armor sets and make them more widely available/buyable and more obvious how to sync them up instead of separating a 3 piece set as far apart as possible in 3 corners of the world.

Allow Bow item slots to hold Ranged Weapons like Boomerangs and Wands to justify using my leftovers seeds after buffing my weapon slots.

Diversify the shrines/korok poop problem by introducing permanent effect items with big implications like a weapon repair kit or a super rare "this weapon can never break"

Make Boomerangs more common, intuitive and a bit more zelda-like in function(i.e. grabbing shit, stunning shit) or make the Boomerang a Big Item.

Link has a hard healing consumable limit tied to bottles or only carrying up to 4 meals at a time. Full heal/stamina meals require actual rare materials used in proper hidden recipes of 5 individual pieces like lynel horns.

You know what's annoying in skyward? Picking up items after you start the game That same
>You got X!
Happens every time. I don't need to know I picked up an amber or gunk or whatever. It stops after one but I have shit to do so I have to save and stop often. Screws with me way more than fi ever did.

how about some sky temples in skyward sword instead of visiting regions twice? have some natural dungeons down below and manmade looking ones up above

Fi didn't bother me at all actually. I hear so many people complain that Fi chimed in to help you with puzzles which I thought was funny because I always worked out the puzzles before she ever chimed in and the only time I couldn't work something out (crossing the sand inside the Lanayru Mining Facility) she didn't offer any help. Even when I asked for a clue the clue she gave was pretty cryptic something about checking my map to find a way through (I rarely ever looked at the map in Zelda games until Skyward Sword that is).

That'd be nice but I found the biomes of the dungeons to be diverse enough. First time through, I had no idea that Ancient Cestern would have all those gears nor Sandship would use bows like that. I'd like an ice level or more but I think it was decently done for a repeat.

Basically people are saying you're a retard for taking so long on SS puzzles that Fi chimes up. It's an easy as fuck game, you shouldn't take long enough for Fi to even sound.

>6-8 Formal Dungeons
THIS. This alone is needed. Fuck Shrines.

I agree with much of this.

The game needed dungeons, not more shrines. Boomerangs are even more useless than the average zelda. I agree with rewars too.

Different user but it's a meme people started to repeat to fit in after reading dumb internet comics about it. She has a prompt for the next dungeon area every half hour or so, and otherwise can provide straightforward advice on how to counter any enemy you lock on to. Same shit with the Water Temple being omigod so hard.

That said, Fi is what happens when you take the popular non-reality-based view of Navi and inexplicably decide to make it into an actual companion.
Definitely this. Why do people complain about Fi when this small feature is tons more annoying? I never had Fi tell me how to do a puzzle like these guys say, did I get a different version of the game?

>Fi was the most intrusive assistant to ever grace the series.
That's an exaggeration. My experience is she pops out about as much as Navi and has a bit less to say, usually a single line. You can also ignore her when she pings that she has something to tell you if it isn't crucial, and just ignore what she says when she forces her way out if you already understand the hint she's trying to impart. I only recall the pinging once or twice before she gives up. If she's giving a Fable-esque warning about low hearts for instance, you should never have any situation where you can't find more and refill out of the danger zone within 2.3 seconds anyway.

Fi and Navi get meme'd on for being annoying but they are nowhere near as annoying "x weapons is close to breaking" every few minutes or so. I love the physics puzzles and some of the characters but what went so wrong?

WW
>hyrule actually exists under the waves
>slow travel around doing dungeons and meeting the people of hyrule as you free them from the time curse
>have to say goodbye to it all at the end anyway

People who complain about Navi probably haven't played OoT in years and are just jumping on the bandwagon.

She's a saint compared to Fi and not even remotely as bad as people exaggerate her to be.

This shit began with navi in Ocarina of Time, but even she was much less annoying, easier to ignore, and did a better job at guiding the player to where they needed to be to progress than Midna does. Stops so navi can tell you something are sparse. Midna stops you every two goddamn minutes you make forward progress.

Whenever Nintendo puts a follower character in their Zelda games they can't help but put these fucking mini roadblocks all over the fucking place. Navi and Tatl are tolerable, Midna is infuriating, and Fi would be somewhere in between if it wasn't for that low battery bullshit. Seriously, there's a low battery icon on-screen, you can see the charge in the home menu, AND you need the character to flick the player in the dick until they read your slow-moving text box? Fuck off.

Pros:
>art style was nice
>story was good and had me enjoying lots of the characters
>Groose
>the desert area was with the time mechanics was fun
>flying was a nice addition
>Fi was a better companion than navi
>some of the bossfights were fun (the pirate ship one i enjoyed a lot)

Cons:
>flying although nice took up way too much of the playtime, had it been in BOTW then it would be great.
>having to fight demise again
>sent to that first woodland area so much that i hated going there
>oh great another demise fight.
i remember having to re-trek through dungeons to get stuff done which was kind of shit

other stuff that i found interesting not bad or good
>item upgrading
>the whole timeline is because this evil demise guy cursed link

>Midna stops you every two goddamn minutes you make forward progress.
Quit pulling shit out out of your ass faggot, I’ve played the game twice and Midna is nowhere as intrusive as you make out to be.

Weapon durability is something BOTW didn't need so much of. We had Giant's Knife and Razor Sword but those weren't main things. We had usable enemy weapons in previous games like WW but it wasn't a core thing either. I'd like a combination, where you upgrade your unbreakable basic sword through story but there's always some benefit, like range, for using other stuff.

I agree that weapon durability sucked. I ain't strategic, it's the same reason people often don't use masterballs. Don't want to waste it on weak mobs so I end up not using what I want to use.
Not that guy but I played ss a few and Fi ain't as bad as people here say either. Maybe we exaggerate companions.

thatt's blatantly wrong. Fi is the king of interrupting you, and it's 100x worse if you don't beat the game in a single sitting. "your batteries are low" "this is a blue rupee, it's worth 5 rupees" "this is a skull pendant" "You just got the bow, hey master let me show you a cutscene pointing to where to use it rather than letting you figure it out on your own" "did i mention this is a skull pendant?" "this is a blue rupee".

Most thoroughly based post I've read in a long time

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>"your batteries are low" "this is a blue rupee, it's worth 5 rupees" "this is a skull pendant"
What, are you Arin hansen? Most of that shit ain't even Fi.

Navi can be literally ignored by not pressing c-up. Fi interrupts gameplay 100% of the time if she wants to tell you something.

>our batteries are low" "this is a blue rupee, it's worth 5 rupees" "this is a skull pendant"
Err, most of those are non-Fi prompts

>Fi is the king of interrupting you, and it's 100x worse if you don't beat the game in a single sitting.
Just don't be a retard and take a year beating puzzles. Easy. Ignore her and don't click
>Fi interrupts gameplay 100% of the time if she wants to tell you something.
Don't click the button

>WW
Make it so it's possible to die, make the dungeons more challenging, add shit to do in the ocean and on the islands, destroy the remake.
>TP
Give more use to items, cut those fucking egg hunts as wolf link, make game harder. Destroy the remake
>SS
Destroy

>WW
Explorable Underwater Hyrule. One more dungeon. To would be nice but exploring Hyrule is more important

>TP
Remove the Ilia amnesia subplot and any quests tied to it

>SS
Cancel it. Nothing good came of its existence

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>"your batteries are low"
Fi and only happens if you for some reason play with low batteries.
>this is a blue rupee, it's worth 5 rupees" "this is a skull pendant" "You just got the bow, hey master let me show you a cutscene pointing to where to use it rather than letting you figure it out on your own" "did i mention this is a skull pendant?" "this is a blue rupee".
You talking Fi or your imagination?

>Fi interrupts gameplay 100% of the time if she wants to tell you something.
What. I've played the game & all it does is make your wiimote beep.

huh, it's been a while since i played SS, i guess i just blurred all the constant interruptions of gameplay into Fi.

>Fi is the king of interrupting you, and it's 100x worse if you don't beat the game in a single sitting.
Blatantly wrong. I'm thinking you didn't play the game or you, like the anons say, took too long on baby level block pushing.

>it's been a while since i played SS, i guess i just blurred all the constant interruptions of gameplay into Fi.
Hi Arin

Too bad SS actually toned down the YOU GOT ____ from TP, tremendously.

So you don't remember it. Maybe you should consider knowing what you're on about first. SS ain't my favorite Zelda but come on man.

>i guess i just blurred all the constant interruptions of gameplay into Fi
I'm curious how you people manage to play older zelda games and not blame the game for every screen transition.

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That would be funny. Imagine someone doing a similar Game Grumps parody of a 2D Zelda game, playing things equally bad, and pulling the same shit on waiting and Arin's ADHD on every screen translation.

I actually like SS, but pretending it doesn't have some glaring flaws isn't healthy. it doesn't make a major difference that i was wrong about it being Fi, it's still a major problem that Skyward Sword won't shut the fuck up when you are trying to play it.
are you really defending SS's constant desire to remind you what a chu jelly is every time you pick one up?

>ww
Add the two final dungeons so no triforce quest happens.
>tp
Give the game it's own soul instead of being an oot reboot. Axe the dog and first temple.
>ss
Man, where to begin. Add a no waggling mode for starters, change character design, populate the sky with more islands and characters, get rid of the tadpoles and silent realms, make the forging of the master sword more dramatic, spruce up the fights against the imprisoned, not fuck with the canon as much, remove the stamina meter, add more variety to the ground areas, etc. Game is a mess as is.

Not those but pic related is what you mean and fi isn't there. I agree and and agree that prompts like that are annoying but that's not fi.

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I'm alright with SS, not best game ever but not worst, and most of the time the game complains when you yourself screws up or takes forever on one thing. Do well and the game doesn't moan at you.

>change WW's artstyle

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>are you really defending SS's constant desire to remind you what a chu jelly is every time you pick one up?
Happens each time you load the game but not if you play repeatedly. Depends on seating times.

>change character design
What

>Zant's whole character arc? Yeah that surely ruined TP, scrap that.
Are you clinically braindead?

>SO MUCH WAITING
>I HAD TO WAIT FOR THE SNES TO TURN ON WHEN I CLICKED

skyward shit is actually the most salvageable of the three. remove the waggleshit controls, remove fi, and it's better than ww and tp.

Characters are too ugly man. We get people like zelda or groose's gang who look outright fugly.

>groose's gang who look outright fugly.
>he thinks groose isn't fabulous

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One small thing, why do people have problems with the motion controls so much? I found they were easy, too easy for challenge, but not hard to use.

So what are the good Zelda games? Was thinking of emulating one but all the latest ones seem to be bad.
Kind of odd there's a bunch of threads on them today.

Because moving your arm is hard.

I did say his gang, not him hahaha. There's few characters in ok with and he's one of them. Maybe the only redeeming factor ss has going for it.

I mean, I found it to be really precise to the point where the puzzles using it were honestly braindead
>slash these things in this order
That doesn't even count regular combat of holding a sword in one direction, spin attack and fatal blow/whatever SS called it.

>WW
WWHD actually fixed most issues with it, although it sacrificed the artstyle a bit. Make WWHD have a bit more content in the sea, give it the old artstyle, and it's fixed. Maybe some more dungeons somehow, it always felt short to me.
>TP
Be able to skip the intro holy shit
>SS
Option to make Fi shut up, option to make zoom in cutscenes not happen. Option to use joystick for flight. Make the islands in the sky actually have shit. Fix the shitty volcano section. There is no reason for a stamina bar.
Remove the motion controls in general because that shit felt awful when you're actually playing, textbook example of a desired idea being a wet fart in execution.

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my favorites
link's awakening
a link between worlds

>There is no reason for a stamina bar.
>Remove the motion controls in general because that shit felt awful when you're actually playing, textbook example of a desired idea being a wet fart in execution.
I don't get this. They felt fine to me. Too fine as I said about making any puzzles using them too easy. And it's easy to see stamina is to prevent you from spamming spin attacks.

>Remove the motion controls in general because that shit felt awful when you're actually playing, textbook example of a desired idea being a wet fart in execution.
Git gud

>Remove the motion controls in general because that shit felt awful when you're actually playing, textbook example of a desired idea being a wet fart in execution.
I've met people who say they liked the motion controls but not the linearity or difficulty and disliked the game as a whole. Dunno where this comes from.

Of all the things that ruin Skyward Sword, motion controls are ironically the least offensive.

>motion controls
Never screwed up for me. Why'd it fail for others?

I kinda miss ss's upgrade system. Stuff like the Slingshot managed to be more useful than any other Zelda game in recent memory.

They balanced returning items to be extremely useful in random combat and gave them a use beyond puzzles. In SS you can't just load up on 4 to 6 fairies and face tank your way though the game. Even the fucking slingshot feels overpowered as fuck compared to your sword.

Dunno either, I see vids like youtube.com/watch?v=p_aGjL1bwN0 and they have no trouble.

Skyward Sword's combat was the least of its problems. Actually, despite what the circlejerk will tell you, the motion controls were actually quite good.

Yeah, I had no issues. What'd others do that didn't or vice versa?

>WW
More islands, with an emphasis on them being near the edges of the tiles
Give Tetra something to do. Maybe quests on the Ship?
Tingle Mode
>TP
Fix the character proportions
Redo all the animations. Game aged terribly.
Bigger overworld, more enemies, puzzles based on the dungeon items
Upgrade the spinner so it lasts longer
I feel like it would benefit from BotW style climbing but in a limited capacity but idk how it would be implemented
More Zant screen time
>SS
Ooccoo
Make the accessible portions sky smaller. I'm thinking three main "cities" with a few islands near them, surrounded by storms so you need to have a guide to leave the cities.
Make the land bigger
Skyloft flying over the land???
Shut the fuck up Fi
Redesign all the bosses
If we must have the imprisoned fights then make them more distinguished and make him not so round and squishy

It's entirely reliant on motion controls, which, while I'm highly critical of, actually worked well most of the time. Skyward Sword would have been better as a spin-off akin to Link's Crossbow training, or Dragon Quest Swords, because it completely sacrifices any sense of exploration and is loaded with forced backtracking and filler that will have you groaning, and it's absolutely shameless about it.

I should clarify, outside of flying the bird, most motion controls outside of combat were fine, other than the bow being worse than TP's use of motion control.
What I couldn't stand was the swordplay. The way I remembered it, enemies changed their guard way too frequently. Like even the Bokoblins seemed to automatically change their guard to block your attack two times regardless of where their guard was, they'd change it lightning fast to block, but not on your third swing at them. This got very old very quickly.
I don't know, maybe I was just a shitter, but I'll still never replay the game because of the previously mentioned Fi.

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>All these replies claiming she isn't the worst
Contrarian Yea Forums is alive and well
Which Zelda helper repeats information that was just displayed on screen?
Which Zelda helper informs you of completely meaningless statistics?
What Zelda helper identifies key aspects of a puzzle as soon as you enter the room?

There is only one.
Fi is by far the worst assistant in the series.

>The way I remembered it, enemies changed their guard way too frequently. Like even the Bokoblins seemed to automatically change their guard to block your attack two times regardless of where their guard was, they'd change it lightning fast to block, but not on your third swing at them. This got very old very quickly.
None of those guy & I dont mean to offend but that's more on your reflexes. I can twirl my arms faster than they change. You can also deliberately make them block one direction and slash another. Them blocking a slash is nothing but a momentary delay. Or you can do what one guy said and point them one direction and spin attack. That easily handles hordes of enemies. It's not too hard at all, I say its actually easier once you do that latter than many other zelda games. I also recommend ensuring your hardware is positioned well. I've seen cases like that before.

>WW
Don't make it.
>TP
Shorten the length of the intro significantly.
Remove or remake the tears of light sections.
Increase the difficulty.
Make the second half non-linear.
>SS
Shorten the length of the intro significantly.
Remove the sky and have all the content (except maybe Skyloft which can remain a hub) be on the ground.
Add more enemy variety.
Cut the dragon trials (can maybe stay as optional mini-games), replace with dungeons.
Make Earth Temple and Fire Sanctuary more distinct from each other.
Give Sky Keep unique assets and a unique boss.
Completely remake the Imprisoned fights so they're actually fun.
Make Fi way less handholdy and give her an actual personality.

Not those guys again but have you played many zeldas? Plenty of times I heard Navi state the obvious or another point out "Hmm I wonder what that does" like Minish Cap.

gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gba/920670-the-legend-of-zelda-the-minish-cap/faqs/39934

The game actually has a random read input flag, you can see it being ticked in memory diagnostics in dolphin. It uses the gyro angle and when it shifts for a swing snaps to block no matter what.

And the scary part is that there are children nostalgic enough for Minish Cap who will try to tell you Sqawk Hat was one of the "good" partners, as if any Zelda partner character is good.

Tell me what's wrong with Ezlo, Midna, or Ghost Zelda

Then just hit them from the left and slash right. I've done so. Anything that works on Ghirahim works on most. I also forgot shield bashing.

It's really amazing how much of a 180 Yea Forums does about games.
But it's more like old Yea Forums and new Yea Forums are made up of almost entirely different people.

There's no option to turn them off.

Why would you ever want to?

Erase them from history

Because I don't want a helper character telling me how to play the game I already know how to play.

SO you never played any of the three games actually in question here, gotcha

Im but see that script and ezlo pointing the obvious or saying something you just did. I love Minish Cap but I admit that one.

You're half right. Ezlo made Minish Cap the worst 2D Zelda I ever played. Midna's constant interruptions made me grow weary of Twilight Princess by the time I reached Kakariko. I didn't even touch the DS games because fool me once, fool me twice.

>ww
do everything the hd remake did
>tp
speed up the start. give the wolf more moves. make ganons inclusion better. make open world less empty.
>ss
havent played but i heard the start of the game is unbearably slow and the sky sucks. also i heard that certain areas and important npcs are reused too much so fix that by adding more npcs

Then don't shittalk Ghost Zelda

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She's decent but limited movepool in Hyrule Warriors, but she's still a helper character so she's probably the worst thing about her source game. They always are.

>she's still a helper character so she's probably the worst thing about her source game. They always are.
She's actually the best thing about her source game because the parts where you use her in gameplay are the game's best. Again, actually play a game instead of reading incorrect, regurgitated opinions on it

Fucked if I know lol I haven't played any of them

>helper character is the best part of the game
>maybe you should play it
You just said all anyone ever should have to hear on why never to play that game.

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>Thing I hate is done well
>NO I CAN"T PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE BEING RIGHT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HAVING FUN

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It's impossible to do well. Helpers only ruin the games they're in. Make them optional things for children who need them, but there should be a toggle to remove them from the game for everyone else.

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All three of these games are trash fires.

Wind Waker and Skyward Swords are filled with so much padding and filler it's embarrassing to believe that this is how Nintendo treats one of its flagship properties.

Despite Wind Waker being obviously half completed and lacking in substantial content, Skyward Sword still manages to be worse due to forcing an awful control scheme gimmick when there was no reason to and recycling 2/3 of its content over and over again.

Meanwhile, Twilight Princess is a hollow facsimile of Ocarina of Time that lacks any sort of innovation of the formula, copying what worked in the original without knowing why it worked.

Breath of the Wild is a shamelessly made product meant to market itself to lowest common denominator by copying industry trends, causing the series to lose much of its identity.

It's safe to say every Zelda game made after the Oracle games have been progressively getting worse and worse. Considering Majora's Mask, the last good Zelda game made by Nintendo, was made 19 years ago, it's safe to say this series should be put to rest

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I hope you understand that "helper" in the sense it's used in ST is more literal. Zelda doesn't tell you what to do. You tell her what to do as she possesses Phantoms to HELP you through then dungeons. She's a gameplay mechanic, not a tutorial

>Considering Majora's Mask, the last good Zelda game made by Nintendo, was made 19 years ago, it's safe to say this series should be put to rest
It's padded just as much

MM had lots of padding too.

>awful control gimmick

>It's padded just as much

If you define padding as everything that isn't a dungeon you're a fucking dolt. I'm just going to break it down.

>Go to the swamp (Several areas full of enemies)
>Navigate Woods of Mystery (Also full of enemeis)
>World's easiest Stealth section (There were acouple grottos too in the nip version)
>Navigating the upper level using the flowers (With enemies)
>Recieve song
>Fly across the paltforms to the Woodfall entrance (Also with enemies)
>Navigate Woodfall

The only padding is being forced to get the Garo Mask and that's just to keep you from missing hints.

>MM
>Full of enemies
Outside of Ikana Castle? Fuck No
All the stealth shit is padding. So are the Gibdos in the well.

Plus the core gameplay mechanic is a form of padding. There's no reason whatsoever your weapon inventory should reset with time considering you get to keep your major items. All it does is force you to waste a few extra minutes restocking

>gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gba/920670-the-legend-of-zelda-the-minish-cap/faqs/39934
>CTRL + F "Hmm"
>(Link enters the Minish village)
>Ezlo: Hmm... It appears we have found the Minish village.
>(Link soon reaches a vortex)
>Ezlo: Hmn?! Hmmmmnnnn... Ah, of course! How silly of me! Hey, my boy! Jump into that vortex over there for me! I think I've got an idea!
>(After you pull the level to make the Small Key drop.)
>Ezlo: Hmm?! Did something just fall down, or way it just my imagination?
>(Link does a spin attack, and the stone tablet drops)
>Ezlo: Hmm-hmm... It seems that forging the sacred blade somehow opened the doorway! It must lead to the room that holds the secret to the light force! Link, we must go inside!
I haven't played Minish Cap in a while and this is just me searching some random phrase I remember Ezlo using. It's even worse just browsing normally.
>(After Link comes across a mine cart...)
>Ezlo: This must be what the humans who built this mine used to get around in here. Maybe we should hop in? Hm? What? After all, you don't expect me to belive you're scared! There's nothing to be afraid of here! Come, on, let's go!
Does the audience not know to jump inside a minecart? How the fuck does Fi get complaints but this gets a pass?

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>Several areas full of enemies
Not that guy but if areas full of enemies count, wouldn't this mean much of WW or SS gets a pass? I recall areas full of enemies outside dungeons.

Skyward gets a bad rep because of Fi but I never got annoyed by her
It has great dungeons, bosses (save for mike wachowski) and mid-sections.
Motion controls depend on your taste

Skyward Sword had a litany of small issues and one rather big issue. I'm disappointed they didn't do a follow-up to Skyward Sword to continue improving the motion controls, the major issue with Skyward Sword though is its pacing. It is way too slow overall especially at the start, it also feels like it's missing an act.

Normally Zelda games do a 2 Act Structure;
LttP - The Light World -> The Dark World
OoT - Child Link -> Adult Link
WW - Tower of the Gods -> Old Hyrule
TP - Fused Shadow -> Mirror of Twilight

SS seems to be trying to do a 3 Act Game but only has dungeons and content for 2 Acts, I think they should've had an additional dungeon for the 2nd Act and three more dungeons for the 3rd Act as well as a final dungeon at the end of Act 3, that totals to 11 Dungeons, just shy of the 12 Link to the Past had. I would suggest reducing the Imprisoned fight to being a single battle, probably one that occurs between Acts 2 and 3, Ghirahim should have fights that are separate from dungeons, have a confrontation with him outside of Skyview Temple after defeating that dungeon's boss, have one with him before Fire Sanctuary and have one with him at whatever Act 3's Lanayru Dungeon would be.

Also I'm aware Sky Keep is in the game, keep it in but given it kind of lacks a boss unless you're willing to add a Ghirahim fight into that dungeon I'd say that Sky Keep should only be considered a Mini-Dungeon, sort of like Ice Cavern.

One other thing the game could use is more land locations, they don't have to be important to the story hell they could be entirely unrelated to the Eldin, Lanayru and Faron environments so perhaps have them be for Sidequests and free exploration, I feel like we were perpetually stuck on a three element loop with Skyward Sword; Plants -> Fire -> Desert, so at the very least having optional locations that diverge from those elements (and Water and Electricity) would be beneficial.

It had good side quests, up-grade system, and the bosses were pretty creative outside of the design department, plus Hero mode was a godsend that sort fixed the difficulty. Basically it was the answer to WW's flaws in dungeons and side quests.

Why does one need to fix a game with the best girl in it?

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Because it locker her in a basement and turned her into a statue

Is it gay to fuck a pirate tomboy?

STOp REMINDING ME

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It's the straightest thing a guy can do

The truth is a burden to us all

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Nah, Alonzo did while Link was being a cuck, as the lore shows with Spirit Tracks (Link's descendant is a wage slave while Tetra's descendants are still royal family).

eh, prolly not

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I just like actual gameplay over mediocre “exploration”. The only thing i disliked about Skyward was Fi’s notifications, I loved everything else about it. Anyone who says the motion controls were bad obviously never played it

Wind Waker
finish it
Twilight Princess
more color, more over world stuff, better looking showdown with Ganondorf.
Skyward sword
better over world, fi shutting the fuck up, more Groose

Yea, it feels like if they had just made Fi adapt to your needs like ADA from ZOE, it would have been just fine. She'd help when you either wanted or the game felt you needed it instead of just every waking second.

Combat sucked because sponges and durability. Silver enemies are extremely annoying.
Exploration was fun until you realise your reward is a seed, rupees or a breakable object that you don’t need.
I liked some of the shrine puzzles but, the ones that relied on breakable weapon usage and motion controls sucked.
The Beasts were ok, if a bit unoriginal.
The music was non-existant and reminded me of a minecraft ripoff.
Voice acting is poor.
The best place in the game is Hyrule Castle.

Rating Skyrim/10. Seriously, this isn’t a Zelda game. You can’t just go in the exact opposite direction of Skyward and hope it works.

Motion controls are alright but they can't be forced or overemphasised
It makes it really tough to get into a lot of games if you're forced out of your comfort zone just to be able to play the game, that's why consoles and gamepads are so popular, because you can just sit down in ANY position and play it; you dont need to be standing exactly 3m from the screen and have enough room to waggle a remote properly

I think a classic example will always be skyward sword, the motion controls are alright but imperfect but the real problem is that EVERYTHING in the game requires you to waggle and swipe and aim and that's a big investment for otherwise casual video games, not to mention it stops you from playing for long periods of time
another problem is that the game will only ever be able to function on a wiimote for the rest of time, which isn't a problem for many people but it means that way down the line people aren't going to be able to enjoy it like they did with other classic zeldae

>Link's descendant is a wage slave
Gonzo's descendant is the wage slave. Link's is the princess

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It seems to have had worked
Honestly, just removing Groose would make the game 10x better

>Remove the motion controls in general because that shit felt awful when you're actually playing
the controls were the best thing about the game. The wii motion plus worked really good with the sword, the bow and arrow and the flying beetle thing. I can't remember what other stuff it was used for tho desu

The things that ruined skyward sword were Fi, the giant spiky whale thing and the quests where you had to get those glowy things ( i think they were called tears of light). The overword was also not fun, There was really no incentive to explore skyloft. The dungeons were great, and desu some of the best in the whole series.

Skyward sword was definitely a disappointment but it's a shame people attribute that to the game's controls, which were actually really good

>game 10x better
why do you hate fun characters

Skyward Sword is a masterpiece that was the victim of going against the vogue of the time of "linearity bad", and most of all of expecting too much from aging Zelda fans too impatient to adapt to a new control scheme. It's interesting that reviews were mostly glowing, particularly in Japan, but the narrative surrounding it was instantly taken over by "it's bad cuz it's more linear and got the motion controls".

Breath of the Wild was the game that they wanted, and so rather than accept SS for the things it did well they threw a tantrum. And SS was the lowest selling Zelda by far so it's clear that a lot of those people were just band-wagoning.

Everyone mentions SS's dungeon and level design, and yes that's phenomenal, but I don't think it gets enough credit for its items and combat. Probably because those things are most tied to the motion controls. Like anything else with a new control scheme it felt awkward to me at first, but after a few hours in I never had any issues. In fact I realized that SS has some the best gameplay 'feel', the most fun to use items, and best combat of any Zelda (up to that point - BOTW is a contender).

I don't like the stubby legs/lanky limbs of WW's artstyle, everyone looks like a monkey

>just removing Groose would make the game 10x better
>one of the most fun and enjoyable characters in ss

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>people actually defend Fi over Navi

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You are a man of fine taste and never let anyone tell you otherwise.

>up to that point - BOTW is a contender
>flurry rush being broken
>bomb arrows
>so many useless items
What

I'll tell you that your taste sucks

I don't hate anyone else, but Groose reminds me of this kid in my highschool who everyone pretended to love, actually hated, and gets some kind of cheap redemption arc at the end.
If he was even *written* just a bit better, I would have enjoyed the game much more, but Groose just irks me.
Also the fact he literally looks like Chad

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I still don't understand why so many struggled with Skyward Sword's motion controls. Seemed fine to me. Maybe too much attention but they were never unresponsive or failed to work for me. The most struggle I had was occasionally having to click the D-Pad to center when aiming because the crosshairs were misaligned.

>WW
Pretty great game already. Just replace the triforce quest with two more dungeons, like the devs originally intended to do IIRC.

>tp
Never played it. Maybe change the aesthetic, or something. As a kid, I always had the impression that this was a game for emo chicks.

>SS
Easy fix. Just replace all characters with Groose.

Twilight Princess is already perfect, though.

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Is there something wrong with Emo Chicks?

>Easy fix. Just replace all characters with Groose.

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You two are faggots that are just asspained I didn't like your favorite game. Only the Ikana well and the Zora eggs are padding in Majora's mask. Every other pre-dungeon area in Majora's Mask I was a well constructed and structured dungeon within itself. And resting the time hardly ever set you back a step or two as the game granted the player so many progress milestones that made catching up to where you left off a non-issue. Waiting five minutes for you boat to get from one island to another is padding, figuring out the steps needed to get to a dungeon by navigating specifically created gameplay sequences is not padding.

>Every other pre-dungeon area in Majora's Mask I was a well constructed and structured dungeon within itself. And resting the time hardly ever set you back a step or two as the game granted the player so many progress milestones that made catching up to where you left off a non-issue.
Neither of those but is this bait?

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It's the most trivial reason to hate a game but I despise the game's pacing. You know how everyone raged over that stupid little path to Ganon's Castle in Wind Waker? That's how I feel about everything in the last third of Twilight Princess

youtu.be/y2weNM4JtME

No, MM is just exempt from the standards other Zelda games get held to because it's dark. I'd bet I could get the internet loving the Triforce Hint if I wrote a good enough creepypasta pertaining to it

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Monkeys are cute, though.
I've always loved ww's artstyle, and now I can never unseebthat they're all monkeys. Holy fuck, what have you done to me?! My childhood is ruined!!!

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The proportions only stand out on the adult character but your heroes are all kids.

>Standards

Zelda has standards? You know what you have to do to get into the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess? The exact same fucking thing you did the last time you went there with a new step. You know what you have to do in Wind Waker? Either absolutely nothing paying Tingle like 10 000 rupees over what has to be possibly half the game's length. There's no middle ground.

I admit that its style will stand the test of time much better than a realistic style.

Yeah, they're fucking wierd.

Also I'm not one, so that impression deterred me from ever trying the game.

>stubby legs, long arms
>live on barren rocks in a world with no fish in the ocean and barely any food
>the gods washed away the old land of Hyrule but the people on the tallest mountains were spared

Face the truth: The Hylian people died eons ago and instead Wind Waker focuses on Gorons who evolved to be more like Hylians. That's why Link can't swim for long.
>B-but there are still Gorons in Wind Waker!
Yeah and there's still monkeys on Earth. Face it: Everyone in Wind Waker are Gorons.

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Yes, every game after OoT until BotW has padding problems. MM too. Don't know why people can't just admit the game is flawed but they really like the story and will forgive it because of it

>Link can't go underwater in WInd Waker

>until BotW

BotW has issues but I don't see how padding is one of them when you can kill Ganon whenever you want

The main game yes, but much of the side content is rather copy and paste or way less worthwhile. Judged by being able to finish the game, no but if someone's doing a 100% run, there will be tons of padding.

Those 3 are my favorite games in the series. They don't need fixing.

I mean, I like them, but I also like pirate tomboys and actual guys, soo...

Based

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Pretty sure all Zeldas have to be born from the same bloodline though. Also the story says the gods commanded certain hylians to climb the mountains and avoid the flood. If you could find a way around that I would legitimately consider this theory.

>WW
Either reduce travel time between island or fast travel (Which thankfully, I feel the HD port did alright with by providing an item to speed up to travel time
>TP
Get rid of Ganon and while the wolf was fine i wish there was more to do with it
>SS
Umm? Make it playable with a controller. Besides that there's not a lot you could do to fix it. Maybe get rid of fi

>Make it playable with a controller.
Why?

You're correct on the faster sail thing. They also shortened the fetch quest, somewhat.

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There's nothing wrong with TP Ganondorf

I only judge padding in a main game. I gained can have as much bullshit as it wants as long as it's optional. Nobody would have said boo about the Triforce hunt if it was a side quest

>Wind Waker
Not going to state the obvious dev time
Make Ganondorf not a fat loser
Less gay Link design
Make it not baby mode cel shaded
Deeper combat
I don't like this game so I would like to say cancel it pretty much

>Twilight Princess
Make start less slow
Wolf sections need more to them
Maybe less Midna interruptions
That's basically it, this game rocks

>Skyward Sword
Waaaaay less Fi interruptions, but more importantly don't interrupt every fucking time you find a new item
1-2 Imprisoned fights
Delete Demise's curse
Add unique bosses to all the dungeons you fight Ghirahim besides the first one, put them somewhere else, and the copy pasted ones too. Replace the shitty cyclops boss on the ship. This is my main issue with the game.
Sky could definitely be more interesting
Motion controls are fine I don't know why anyone bitches about it

You didn't ask but...

>Breath of the Wild
Make it be called just that, Breath of the Wild and no Zelda in the name
Don't let you fucking pause and eat to cheese
Remake combat to not be a masher with zero depth and make it more like TP
Delete the fuck awful voice acting
Make actual dungeons
No gay ambient music
Autism crafting made more like SS
Weapon breaking system needs to be reworked
No rain that rapes you during climbing
Add a villain because Ganon is fucking terrible in this game
No gay tranny scene and no topless Link for tumblr whales and faggots, this shit is even gayer than WW Link
Pretty much delete entire game. Liking this game is biggest red flag of "I'm a faggot" in recent memory

>if it's optional
>most of botw is optional

Wouldn't that mean Majora's Mask and Breath of the Wild get an insane advantage because so much of their content are side missions and side quests?

>Replace the shitty cyclops boss on the ship.
That was probably the worst part of the Sandship for me. I generally liked that level and the way they used the timeshift stones. In fact, I'd like to see the timeshift stones some more, they were fun for me. I guess it's also disappointing that no boss ever used them.

The sandship was a great dungeon. The dungeons in SS were its best quality, I also loved the ancient cistern and lanyru mines. Pretty much every dungeon was good.

But yes, the cyclops was a really shit design, very gimmicky boss fight and random character. Still it's better than literal clones (obviously very rushed) and Ghirahim taking up a slot for a boss. This game gets no credit for how good it is in spite of obviously being mega rushed.

A game with no content can be saved by it's side content (Wind Wkaer) but I still prefer the opposite. The problem is mroe that Skyward Sword not only doesn;t do it in a very interesting way the justification for it is borderline insulting.

>Good Plot: Have to go into a castle minidungeon to find out how to scale a bigass tower

>Bad Plot: Character refuses to let you go to the temple unless you help them by going to a place you've already been to get an item
If you try to get this item before this quest like a normal person the game refuses to acknowledge it
When you go in it's almost exactly the same fucking thing as last time
A character appears to tell you that Oops I lost the key XD

The second one is actually a real thing that happens in Skyward Sword. I fucking hate it.

I mostly agree with you. I too have no idea why so many complain about the motion controls. Never failed me before so I doubt it's software related. It's probably a hardware or user malfunction. As for BotW, I have to add enemy diversity. I mean, come on. I get Calamity Ganon made the world into a post-apocalyptic setting but just how many of the same enemy, maybe with different colors, are we going to see? Yes, they can be stronger or weaker but I tire of seeing another Hinox or Lynel with a different color. Where's the Darknuts? For a game where durability is such a central thing, where are the Like Likes? It's just odd to me that I'm complaining about lack of enemy diversity in a ZELDA game.

The fuck is up with the replies to this? Did you guys play a different game to me.

>MASTER THERE IS A 99% PROBABILITY THAT THIS BOSS DOOR IS UNLOCKED BY THE BOSS KEY YOU FOUND
>JUST LIKE I TOLD YOU IN THR LAST THREE DUNGEONS

>Aha! I spy a beam of light, that means there must be a connection to the exterior of the ship over there, I’ll walk over and-
>MASTER LOOK THIS LIGHT INDICATES A WINDOW OF SOME KIND. MAYBE YOU CAN SHOOT SOMETHING THROUGH IT

Navi would never have registered as remotely irritating if it weren’t for memes after the fact. If was a constant intrusion that seemed to take pleasure in ruining any sense that I was actually doing anything in the game off my own initiative unprompted.

Am i the only person who didn't mind the sailing in WW at all? I remember just exploring the ocean seeing a sillhouette on the horizon, and racing towards it without any idea how to use the map. I thought it was great. Finding submarines, enemy towers, islands and whatever other secrets were out there was awesome. I really just remember enjoying the sailing.

>The fuck is up with the replies to this? Did you guys play a different game to me.
Maybe they all did because the only points those replies have in common is asking if that user played poorly, and thus triggered Fi.

>ancient cistern
My first time there was great. I liked the system of gears and the overall design. It looks good. And the boss was great. Probably my favorite Skyward Sword boss.

That's another good one yes. I just got tired of listing the many BotW faults. The game is blatantly not Zelda and I would do the literal opposite in many cases.

I guess the atmosphere is there. The problem is more or less doing it over and over. I had fun in Assassin's Creed 4 sailing but there came a point where I mostly fast traveled.

make them all play like tp and leave tp alone

Gameplay in Skyward Sword is all a blur to me. I just remember forcing myself through the whole thing to justfify owning it.

I find BotW to be going the opposite direction of SS so hard that it fucks up in another way. It's like how I think Disney Star Wars tried being unlike the prequels so hard that they screwed up their own special, and IMO, worse way.

>WW
Overhaul the sailing or remove it completely. It's boring as shit with the reward not being worth the egregious waiting. Make the game harder, remove the triforce shard bullshit, add in the scrapped dungeons, and make the companions (the Korok dude and Medli) have more fleshed out interactions with their dungeons. I thought that was a good idea and that it should've been expanded on some more.
>TP
Holy fuck reduce the intro. Let me play the damn game. Secondly, remove Ilia or do something else with her, her memory garbage is completely irrelevant and can even be ignored. That's how much the devs gave a fuck. Overhaul the wolf sections so that they're not all samey collect-a-thons, make combat more involved so the sword techniques are useful, and diversify how the dungeons play out so you're not doing the same thing every time. Like every TP dungeon follows the same pattern, mix it up a bit. Finally, make the items more useful outside of their dungeons. Some of them are interesting, let us use them more often.
>SS
Delete it. Delete it, Hylia, Demise, and everything from that game. Gave Aonuma and whoever else thought it was a good idea a fucking slap upside the head and tell them to keep their shit ideas on a leash.

>and everything from that game
>Groose

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Agreed. Everything good SS did, the dungeons, the music, the villain, was fucking terrible in BotW. You could say the same for really any prior 3D Zelda, all the Egoraptor-tier complaints were taken on board.

>MASTER THERE IS A 99% PROBABILITY THAT THIS BOSS DOOR IS UNLOCKED BY THE BOSS KEY YOU FOUND
Does that even happen outside the first or second dungeon?
>MASTER LOOK THIS LIGHT INDICATES A WINDOW OF SOME KIND. MAYBE YOU CAN SHOOT SOMETHING THROUGH IT
The vast majority of those come when you're too slow to solve the puzzle. So I guess just learn to play better?

>all the Egoraptor-tier complaints
Oh god. I didn't take them seriously when I first heard of them, I thought of them as evidence that the complainer is an idiot, but they actually took those to heart? The complaints about chest opening times? Then again, if gaming journalists are any indication, kids really are smarter than adults. The kind of screw-ups I've seen these morons make I've also seen kids avoid. It's mindboggling.

Obviously don't know they did, but what is BotW if not a reaction to those complaints. It's a game made for children and casuals who never played the other Zelda games.

That would explain why my complaints about the game I never had for any other Zelda.

I honestly forgot how much she does it. Here look at the first 5 seconds of the video.

youtube.com/watch?v=XJE0CAQNuMI

Attached: 4fe656c6367b4990bed0f26440c86cf88f57582ev2_hq.jpg (367x653, 22K)

I would still take the game being wiped from existence.

>The music in BotW was fucking terrible
Invalidated your opinion. You're a pleb.

I kinda fastforwarded throught the video and I counted once at the start, once at 8:39 at the player's prompting via scanning, once at 12:31 which she sound-prompts (but I know that one is optional because I saw the lock on map and thought exactly what she said without needing to be told), an unavoidable one after the dungeon at 21:40, another unavoidable one at 22:30 which also quick-exits the dungeon, and that's all. So 5 in total, 3 unavoidables, 2 in a row, and 2 optional ones.

Enjoy your soulless ambient noise

Fine a TP and OoT snippet and compare how much Navi and Midna do it.

Not that guy but I genuinely don't recall a single thing from that game's soundtrack. Maybe the final boss music? I found none of it memorable, which is odd because I usually appreciate Zelda soundtracks.

I dunno if youtube.com/watch?v=8-VNJSnxYqU is, I just selected a random video and I'm watching/fastforwarding as I write this.

One unavoidable time at 1:38 (think because of the camera angle). Another at 4:02 (unsure which). I believe 18:02 was optional because of the click sound. I guess 19:35 was optional too, I rewatched it a few times and heard the sound every time. This guy must really like Midna because 22:09 has another optional one. Okay does this guy have short term memory loss? Another optional Midna (I think) at 24:14. I'm really just assuming click sound = optional but I'm rewatching and the start has one too.

By this point I'm stopping at 24:14 because I think I chose a bad video where the player clearly loves talking with Midna every two seconds. Seeing if I can find another one.

The only ones I recall are Hyrule Castle and the zora girl's theme.

A lot of the common criticisms about BotW are usually wrong and misunderstand the game (e.g. rain, the world is too big + empty, where's my reward I deserve so much, Divine Beasts aren't good, it's not exactly like the previous Zelda games and that hurts my autism etc.)

That being said, there are obvious flaws:
>Not enough incentive to engage in combat in the overworld, especially later on
>Copy paste combat shrines suck ass
>Reload for upgraded bomb is too forgiving, same with the time stopper
>The actual story is borderline shit, its implementation is good
>Ability to instantly heal while paused is dumb
>Not enough enemy variety
>The internal aesthetic for shrines and Divine Beasts are repetitive

You could look for a speedrun and check that.

Everything Egoraptor said about that game was true though.

I wanted to check up a regular playthrough to match so neither that video, or whatever I pic, gets an unfair advantage in any way. Especially if the speedrun glitches past large portions of the game.

>Everything Egoraptor said about that game was true though.
Please tell me this is a joke.

I checked up a glitchless speedrun.
youtube.com/watch?v=7v11Ev_amzU
43:40, she doesn't appear. She appears multiple times throughout the Forest Temple though. I kinda wonder if that's just because of it being the first one, though.

There's always many at the start because it's the first one. I wonder if first impressions are messing with us this time.

Oops, she actually does show up without a trigger. You can't avoid it, she makes a quick comment if you keep watching from 43:40.

No. The game was an inelegant translation of Zelda into 3D and very much inferior to ALttP. Very basic and uninteresting level design, zero challenge, restrictive, brainless item gating. It was boring. You can tell they had little faith in the players and themselves as designers with the amount of text explanation in that game, as well.
And opening chests obviously was a stupid waste of time.

>Very basic and uninteresting level design, zero challenge, restrictive, brainless item gating. It was boring.
>You can tell they had little faith in the players and themselves as designers with the amount of text explanation in that game, as well.
>And opening chests obviously was a stupid waste of time.

youtube.com/watch?v=fJg3HP36FrM

Attached: Untitled.png (1385x573, 120K)

I don't care how "good" he is at the game. All his criticisms were true and valid.

>Very basic and uninteresting level design,
How?
>zero challenge, restrictive, brainless item gating
Again, how?
>You can tell they had little faith in the players and themselves as designers with the amount of text explanation in that game, as well.
Supporting evidence where?
>And opening chests obviously was a stupid waste of time.
Who cares for a few seconds like that?

Went through the Goron Mines. There isn't an interruption there, so it's probably just babby's first dungeon syndrome.

>Everything Egoraptor said about that game was true though.

Attached: 1515402723706.webm (480x360, 1.3M)

>Wind Waker
More dungeons. Make the triforce take place over the course of the game like in Metroid Prime 1, or just cut it entirely. Make the dungeon design more complicated.
>Twilight Princess
Less fucking filler between dungeons, it sucks balls.
>Skyward Sword
Unfixable.

What if they aren't the game's flaws but his own flaws? A lot of his playstyle completely screws him over. He's the type of guy who rushes past all dialogue, exposition as well as avoiding all hints, gets lost, and then complains he's lost when he's the very reason he is lost. Then he complains about handholding if the game has a way to help lost players before getting out a strategy guide and saying the game's hints are useless because he has a 3rd party's guide.

go to bed arin

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Arin's sequalitis on OoT is a brilliant study on how nostalgia fanboyism dictates the medium of gaming and why noone will ever take it as seriously as other objective media.

his arguments basically boiled down to being retarded, and were not conveyed in the way your image implies they were.

He complained about being unable to keep track of things in a 3d environment. He literally complained about that. He basically said he has no spatial awareness and is as intelligent as a fucking human toddler.

The ultimate shit on arin for his hate of OoT is primarily his unironic proud love of games that are like OoT. He loves Dark Souls and Bloodborne and Monster Hunter. What would these games be like had there never been a game like OoT? All the fundamental game design for those games exist as being made popular if not outright invented through OoT.

His video is truly nothing about actual criticism against the game, but instead his perceived belief of thinking all zelda games should be 2d top-down and portrayed in a different way than 3D zelda's are portrayed. He has zero issue with the explicit gameplay style pioneered by OoT cause he enjoys games like OoT. He just hates OoT cause its Zelda, and he believes Zelda means ALttP.

Arin is the wrong kind of autistic.

it's ironic how WW fans were the one to call out others for judging a game based off its look, yet they are the ones now praising WW for its looks while shitting on games like TP despite the gameplay of WW consisting of shit tier dungeons and long stretches of ocean nothing

Attached: scooby.png (499x465, 217K)

OoT is overrated as fuck but Arin hardly gets to the heart of it; all he does show is what an ADHD riddled impatient contrarian manchild he is. If you haven't watched Grumps to find this out, it's also made clear here that he doesn't pay attention to text in games, as he gets a bunch of facts wrong (the plot of Zelda 1, Link's reason for finding the Master Sword in LttP, who gave Link the letter to Death Mountain in OoT, etc). He also contradicts arguments made within the video and those in previous Sequelitis videos.

>WW
harder at least one more dungeon

>TP
just make it more like MM

>SS
pretty much everything except the graphics

>WW
Overworld needs more content (more interesting islands, no copypasted reefs). Desperately needs fishing, although they'd have to get rid of that line about there being no fish in the sea. The last two dungeons should be able to be completed in any order. Great Fish Isle should have its own dungeon. Ghost ship should be its own mini dungeon.

It's crazy to think how amazing this game would have been if it felt more like a complete title.

>TP
Again, overworld needs more content. Grottos should be more like WW's grottos where there were actual puzzles inside. More than just three sidequests. Hyrule Castle Town needs to feel more alive with NPCs you can actually interact with. Map structure needs to be less bottlenecked. Prologue desperately needs trimming.

>SS
Burn it with fucking fire. Nearly everything about this game sucks, especially the piss poor overworld and lack of a proper day/night cycle.

WW and TP are great in their own way but both lacked things that the other game already had in spades. SS on the other hand is such a nauseating experience that they might as well remake it from scratch.

Am i the only person that genuinely enjoyed skyward sword?

>Very basic and uninteresting level design
>How?
Linear boxed-off rooms with either challenge-less combat encounters or brainless pseudo-puzzles, where the player rarely has to think about the dungeons as a 3D space in totality and never has to to navigate them in complex ways.
>zero challenge
>again, how?
Combat usually boils down to locking on, holding up a shield, waiting then attacking. Environmental factors should make this more interesting, and the game attempts this, but it mostly fails. In terms of item gating, progression boils down to "now I have the hookshot so now I can go to x dungeon" rather than anything that might require the player to make choices
>Supporting evidence where?
>You can tell they had little faith in the players and themselves as designers with the amount of text explanation in that game, as well.
ALttP has one-sentence long hints on walls. OoT has Deku Scrubs give paragraph-long monologues about what you should do to defeat them.
>Who cares for a few seconds like that?
People who respect their own time and can see past obvious filler and padding

There's others who do even on this thread. I myself have a hard time taking anyone seriously who says the motion controls are hard to use. I've seen kids use them perfectly.

>Combat usually boils down to locking on, holding up a shield, waiting then attacking.
See consider using Deku Nuts, hookshots or anything besides mindlessly mashing the attack button you scrub.

>challenge-less combat encounters
Consider playing some 2D Zelda
> brainless pseudo-puzzles, where the player rarely has to think about the dungeons as a 3D space in totality and never has to to navigate them in complex ways
Consider making more than a bland assertion
>Combat usually boils down to locking on, holding up a shield, waiting then attacking.
Consider learning how to play the game right.

Good game design usually teaches players through visuals and audio cues, something previous Zeldas were very good at, rather than dropping paragraphs on them. Again, I don't care how good the man is at the game, handholding and constant exposition are valid flaws.

>Combat usually boils down to locking on, holding up a shield, waiting then attacking. Environmental factors should make this more interesting, and the game attempts this, but it mostly fails. In terms of item gating, progression boils down to "now I have the hookshot so now I can go to x dungeon" rather than anything that might require the player to make choices
I'm sorry what the fuck?

>Linear boxed-off rooms with either challenge-less combat encounters or brainless pseudo-puzzles, where the player rarely has to think about the dungeons as a 3D space in totality and never has to to navigate them in complex ways.
Oh my god, did you ever visit the water temple?
>Combat usually boils down to locking on, holding up a shield, waiting then attacking.
Deku nuts

>Good game design usually teaches players through visuals and audio cues, something previous Zeldas were very good at, rather than dropping paragraphs on them
OoT does that. Even SS does that.

>this entire post
Did you just repeat that shitty sequelitis video with no thought?
Have you played a 3D zelda? here's some vids to check out
youtube.com/watch?v=fJg3HP36FrM

>Good game design usually teaches players through visuals and audio cues, something previous Zeldas were very good at
Ocarina does that all the time. All the damn time.
> rather than dropping paragraphs on them.
Did the 2D games never infodump?

>Again, I don't care how good the man is at the game, handholding and constant exposition are valid flaws.
What if the game only handholds because the game makers are aware idiots like Arin will be unable to proceed if they don't?

>Again, I don't care how good the man is at the game
>I don't care if he's shit at the game
>handholding and constant exposition are valid flaws.
>evidence-less assertion

>Good game design usually teaches players through visuals and audio cues
Most arguements that are formed from ALTTP dickriders against OOT is due in nothing but their own lack of patience and willingness to pay attention for more than a few lines of dialogue. You actually have to explore rooms in dungeons and not just run through them with the "puzzle" being shown after about two seconds of exploring their tiny boxlike design.

>He complained about being unable to keep track of things in a 3d environment. He literally complained about that. He basically said he has no spatial awareness and is as intelligent as a fucking human toddler.
A lot of early 3D games struggled with telegraphing things to players, and still struggle to this day. The third dimension and increase in visual noise that OoT brought obviously does detract from the clarity of the prior 2D games. This is an objective observation.
>The ultimate shit on arin for his hate of OoT is primarily his unironic proud love of games that are like OoT. He loves Dark Souls and Bloodborne and Monster Hunter. What would these games be like had there never been a game like OoT? All the fundamental game design for those games exist as being made popular if not outright invented through OoT.
They're 3D action games that were obviously inspired by earlier 3D action games. That doesn't suddenly make everything the original games does great.
>His video is truly nothing about actual criticism against the game, but instead his perceived belief of thinking all zelda games should be 2d top-down and portrayed in a different way than 3D zelda's are portrayed. He has zero issue with the explicit gameplay style pioneered by OoT cause he enjoys games like OoT. He just hates OoT cause its Zelda, and he believes Zelda means ALttP.
No he just points out that trying to translate ALttP and Zelda in general to 3D was inelegant and inevitably ran into problems that those 2D games didn't have. That is just plain honestly.

Arin not liking the game has more to do with him being unable to read on screen prompts than anything he brings up. He's right about all the negative stuff that anyone agrees is pretty low quality, but he also blows a lot of those things out of the water and makes up lies based on his illiteracy and poor comprehension about things he doesn't like to make it seem like a trainwreck of a game. Which it isn't, it's just not as good as OoT or TP or WW mostly because they tried stuff that didn't work.

I didn't have issues with it, I just don't care for motion controls. Give me a good old, ordinary controller any day of the week.

>A lot of early 3D games struggled with telegraphing things to players
OoT easily telegraphs shit. Too easily might I add.
>That is just plain cherryppicked dishonestly
Fixed

I think it's a question of what you want from a videogame. Just to play a really good game or a full fairytale-like experience as a really good game.
Arin is an idiot for complaining OoT is not what he wants for videogames, and doing it incredibly poorly with terrible reasoning, justifications, constantly contradicting himself.
For that matter none of that was relevant because he concludes that the first Zelda is the best anyway just because it has exploration, even though the game has a lot of poor design choices for being one the firsts of its kind.

Free exploration isn't the ultimate game design form, it's a neutral thing you have to do right like any other choice in game design.

Fuck I love all of Zelda and this idiot doesn't know what he's talking about.

>This is an objective observation.

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>Good game design usually teaches players through visuals and audio cues
Like Ocarina of Time?

>pic related beaten games Arin dropped
Explain this

Attached: Untitled.jpg (300x168, 9K)

That's fair.

the only one that needs fixing is twilight princess. it's just a game for those edgy teenage fanboys and less edgyness would have been better for this game. besides that, it starts very slowly. TP is the only zelda i fell asleep while playing it

Wrong the motion plus is good, remove imprisoned fights and make stamina better and have actual things to do in the sky like Star Fox missions or something, you’re right about fi though

The slingshot is fucking pointless.

At least Ocarina of Time made use of it only because you can use it as a child.

Read it again, I guess. Seems pretty clear to me
>Oh my god, did you ever visit the water temple?
That's the one exception that many people agree was seriously flawed.
>Deku nuts
Barely an exception
>OoT does that
To an extent, but it also has fairly big text dumps to explain stuff.
I have played OoT, yes.
The first three Zelda games did not have info dumps to the extent that OoT does. Very little, in fact.
In action adventure games that should encourage players to explore things and try to satiate their own curiosity and creativity as well as challenge them, handholding obviously isn't the most welcome thing.
I'm not a "dick-rider" for any game, Egoraptor only pointed out that it's true that a lot of the elegance in the design of the prior 2D games were sacrificed as it transitioned to 3D.

He accepts failure and perseveres
Arin on the other hand is a big child and has a tanty because he fails and calls the game badly designed

dps is shit at games but at least pays attention to info and knows what to do when given instruction

arin doesn't have the mental capacity to understand the concept of 3d games and calls it shit because it's 3d.

Arin fucking struggles with playing super mario 64 normally, any 3d sonic games which are known for being piss baby easy, and for a more relevant example struggles with majora's mask and twilight princess when direct information on where to go is given to him

>I think it's a question of what you want from a videogame. Just to play a really good game
Surely everyone wants this
>Arin is an idiot for complaining OoT is not what he wants for videogames
No one is an idiot for anything. It's just a man making a criticism and others discussing whether they agree or disagree. Why is video game discussion to over-dramatic?
I don't think he ever said "Zelda 1 was the best anyway because it has exploration".

*so over-dramatic

Read what again? There's nothing worth rereading.

>>Deku nuts
>Barely an exception
youtube.com/watch?v=fJg3HP36FrM at 40:51

>The first three Zelda games did not have info dumps to the extent that OoT does. Very little, in fact.
Consider Alink to the past. The opening scene alone had lots of text

>pointed out it's true
How about stop these loaded statements?

>In action adventure games that should encourage players to explore things and try to satiate their own curiosity and creativity as well as challenge them,
When the game does that, he complains about it and gets a strategy guide

You're right but three or four exceptions don't invalidate the criticism

>three or four exceptions
What if those "exceptions" are the norm? You can bomb those skalfos. You can use the boomerang. There's so many ways to actively take them out.

>In action adventure games that should encourage players to explore things and try to satiate their own curiosity and creativity as well as challenge them, handholding obviously isn't the most welcome thing.
When the player is incompetent as Arin, I'd argue it is.

It has a fair amount in the opening level, but that's really only to set up the game's story and basic controls and it's not very intrusive.

>It has a fair amount in the opening level, but that's really only to set up the game's story and basic controls and it's not very intrusive.
There's plenty after. I still remember being interrupted after defeating Agahnim

>No one is an idiot for anything. It's just a man making a criticism and others discussing whether they agree or disagree.
I am operating a toaster and stuck my penis inside.

There's the story exposition after dungeons and that's it. They never actually interrupt the gameplay in the middle of a dungeon, other than very short hints.

I have no nostalgic connection to Ocarina of Time. I only played it a couple of months ago. I thought it was a fucking masterpiece. Its atmosphere grabbed me in minutes and never let me go, and even the poor graphics werent enough to break the immersion.
I went back and watched Arin's OOT vs LttP review to see if any of his criticisms held up.
Not only was just about every point garbage, but I could see, after having played it for myself that they were all centered around a bias against the change in gameplay and camera angles. Every complaint was born from his inability to cope with how the game is structured and how to play it properly instead of trying to play it like a LttP game.
I got through the game perfectly fine without having to question what I should do. If you pay attention to the goddamn dialogue instead of complaining that there is dialogue, you will never be lost. I even figured out that if you carefully read Kaepora's words, and recognize that "Do you want me to repeat all that" yes is the default, you never have to listen to him twice.

>No he just points out that trying to translate ALttP and Zelda in general to 3D was inelegant and inevitably ran into problems that those 2D games didn't have
The problem is that they do stand up. They're fundamentally still good games. Maybe a bit basic by today's standards, but they're far from terrible.

After all, Arin's review have to be put into the criticism. Unlike other pieces of art, criticism MUST consider the artist - there is no death of the author in criticism. And there is a reality that was revealed over and over with his let's play channel, especially with his Ocarina of Time video.

Arin is very bad at video games. Just awful, really. Because of this, he gets a fairly bad experience of the game. Not because Ocarina of Time demands a lot of you. Of course not, it's a game designed to be beaten by children. It's nearly impossible to fail, and failure can't set you back far. You can play OoT incredibly passively, as Arin does, and reach the end - this is, after all, a game designed to be beaten by children. Of course, if you're moderately skilled at video games, you're quickly going to figure out how the game works and learn to do things faster, more efficiently, and in a more active way. I emphasize, again, that this is a game for children. As a child, you should be able to quickly learn these things by playing the game. By the end of the game, you've gotten good enough that you're able to actively engage in combat rather than passively hide behind your shield. And this is where we return to our problem: Arin is bad at video games, and doesn't learn these things.

>There's the story exposition after dungeons and that's it.
>that's it
I found much exposition and I was interrupted.

>Combat usually boils down to locking on, holding up a shield, waiting then attacking. Environmental factors should make this more interesting, and the game attempts this, but it mostly fails. In terms of item gating, progression boils down to "now I have the hookshot so now I can go to x dungeon" rather than anything that might require the player to make choices
>Hadn't played OoT since I was a kid playing through it with my older brother watching during summer break
>Watch Arin Hanson's vid on how it has serious flaws
>Oh hey, maybe it does, haven't played in a while
>Boot it up yesterday, been replaying through it since then
>At Ice Cavern mini dungeon
>Arin's biggest point against the game, "the enemies suck because they make you wait", is literally null and void just by things like the jump attack, or deku nuts, or hookshot
Why the hell did people bother listening to this guy? Been watching a compilation on his gamegrumps run of the game too, holy shit the guy just sucks at this game

Attached: Untitled.jpg (640x758, 99K)

>after having played it for myself that they were all centered around a bias against the change in gameplay and camera angles
He felt that, as a translation of the prior games to 3D, these were inelegant. This is true. Whether or not he's good at the game, I don't care

Not that guy but see gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/997842-the-legend-of-zelda-ocarina-of-time-3d/59658010 for many ways to beat them

>This is true.
>it just is

Attached: What the fuck am I reading.jpg (736x1080, 75K)

>He felt that, as a translation of the prior games to 3D, these were inelegant.
Yes he did express this opinion.
>This is true.
How?
>Whether or not he's good at the game, I don't care
The critic themselves are relevant the same way a bribed judge isn't trustworthy.

It is. The 2D top down-view where you can see the full environment obviously has a clarity that a full-3D space with a limited camera angle doesn't.

Confirmed to have never played the games he talked about. He gets a ton of basic facts incorrect and he contradicts himself numerous times, within the video and what he's said in previous videos.

Watching him play OoT and MM (hell, just Game Grumps in general) only clarifies how he came to such wrong conclusions and shitty arguments.

For the record, I find Ocarina of Time highly overrated myself. Arin's just a dipshit.

>The 2D top down-view where you can see the full environment obviously has a clarity that a full-3D space with a limited camera angle doesn't.
Not always. There are 2D games with nothing alike that. Take older sidescrollers. You can't see in first person nor even past the edge of the screen. There's plenty of times people like AVGN criticized a sidescroller with poor side scrolling.

I don't see how any of the criticisms are wrong though. The only point that can really be challenged is the fact that in instances you can defeat enemies in other ways than just waiting with your shield up then attacking. But that doesn't change the fact that the game rarely demands that you do anything other than that, and you can get through it just by waiting then attacking a lot of the time.

>The 2D top down-view where you can see the full environment
That's not clarity, that's just a smaller area to observe for people with low attention spans.

>I don't see how any of the criticisms are wrong though.
The criticisms are from his own inability, not the game's inability. That alone undermines everything.

When you apply what he says to how he plays 3d vidya in general, Arin is a gigantic hypocrite. He is legit terrible at playing 3d games. Most of his bias with OoT is due to impatience and 0 spacal awareness.

My main issue with him is that he touts his shitty opinions on game designs as fact.

>Looking for an eyeball/switch is a "non-puzzle" because it's braindead easy
>Complains about SS being the most linear of the Zeldas yet continuoualy gets lost
>The stamina meter in SS doesn't have an interesting relationship with the game world comapired to Monster Hunter and BotW therefor I should be able to run forever consiquence free

I specifically talked about the top-down view, which obviously shows the environment more elegantly to the player than a limited camera angle that they have to move.

>I don't see how any of the criticisms are wrong though.
Various ones are factually incorrect. That is the problem.
>But that doesn't change the fact that the game rarely demands that you do anything other than that, and you can get through it just by waiting then attacking a lot of the time.
That is not a fact. Those Stalfos can hurt you through your shield. To anyone else, this is a sign to switch tactics.

>I specifically talked about the top-down view
Which doesn't show everything, which is why Zelda has that screen-sliding effect to begin with. In a 3D game where you can see an enemy past the screen, you can't in a 2D game.

But there's not actually much more complex about the level design of OoT than the prior games, so it feels as if it's rooms of the same level of complexity that the 2D games had but with a limited perspective.
Shockingly, in instances ALttP actually does 3D level design better than OoT, with its use of multiple floors.

>But there's not actually much more complex about the level design of OoT than the prior games
Plenty is. The Fire temple, which he got lost in, the much criticized Water temple both are,
>Shockingly, in instances ALttP actually does 3D level design better than OoT, with its use of multiple floors.
Even Great Deku tree does this and Fire Temple does too.

>Shockingly, in instances ALttP actually does 3D level design better than OoT, with its use of multiple floors.
Did you play past getting the master sword?

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>which obviously shows the environment more elegantly to the player than a limited camera angle that they have to move.
Not really, it shows small chunks at a time. It's even more limited because it's forced to present everything in small pieces.

>which obviously shows the environment more elegantly to the player than a limited camera angle that they have to move
Obviously? It obviously doesn't, otherwise what's with screen transitions?

WW doesn't need that much fixing, just the pacing. The other two needed different design philosophies.

For Wind Waker, do what the Wii U version did, plus add a couple more dungeons.
For Twilight Princess, cut down the intro a bit so it's not as agonizingly long, and give more uses to the goddamn spinner. That thing is SO fun, yet SO underutilized.
For Skyward Sword, cut down on the handholdy Fi bullshit and give it an actual overworld with more zones than just boring old forest, volcano, and desert, rather than the dumb, boring, skydiving bullshit it has.

>Plenty is. The Fire temple, which he got lost in, the much criticized Water temple both are,
Again, I don't care about how good Egoraptor is at the game, and the Water Temple is a contested exception.
>Even Great Deku tree does this and Fire Temple does too.
The Great Deku has the web on the floor yeah. But your introduction to multiple floors in the Tower of Hera in ALttP is far more complex.

A physical map marking the locations of the first 4 dungeons as well as other points of interest. All of the dungeons in the game were numbered, so if stumbled upon one out of order you'd know.

Being given instructions does not turn the game into a tour. Being told the destination does not necessarily impact the journey. Usually knowing the destination is a big part of journey. I mean Frodo wasn't just wandering around on an adventure and stumbled upon a volcano and thought "This would be a great place to melt an evil ring!" He had a mission and the outcome was predictable. But getting there and how you accomplish the goals is the adventure. The Legend of Zelda starts out by giving you a mission before you start the game. Find the triforce shards, beat Gannon! It was a simple world made of squares. More complex worlds require more complex missions.

You still have to fight enemies while exploring simultaneously. Keese were ALWAYS annoying little shits. At least in 3D games you can snipe them.

He overblows the waiting aspect. Stalfos were the only enemy that had a fairly long period where they guard and all enemies that guarded had weaknesses you could exploit. There weren't a lot of enemies that guarded and most of them were minibosses. He pretty much names all of them in the video. Also, enemies that are difficult to kill quickly but can be killed quickly through skill and knowledge is still a legit challenge. They actually play with this in fights where you encounter 2 or more stalfos. Stalfos will revive as long as another one is still alive after a certain amount of time. The game challenges you to kill them quickly. If you let them control the battle it might go on forever. The original Zelda had enemies/bosses that you couldn't hurt without the right item (or a microphone) and figuring that out was a matter of trial and error or finding a random old man who told you dodongos dislike smoke.

>Again, I don't care about how good Egoraptor is at the game,
Not that guy but that's irrelevant. He's saying the fire temple is and you aren't rejecting it. And who cares if the water temple is contested, it is how he says or not.

Elegance in terms of telegraphing the environment to the player rather than the aesthetic elegance of it being a seamless dungeon

>Again, I don't care about how good Egoraptor is at the game,
philosophypages.com/lg/e06a.htm

>Elegance in terms of telegraphing the environment to the player
In that it doesn't telegraph the environment?

The Fire Temple doesn't use multiple floors to anywhere near the same level of complexity as some of the dungeons in ALttP do. The Water Temple does.

>taking a microscope to minuscule pieces
And it doesn't even do that. It limits your view to a small area. You see a hundred trees but never a forest.

>The Fire Temple doesn't use multiple floors to anywhere near the same level of complexity as some of the dungeons in ALttP do.

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In that it does, instantly, whereas in OoT you're limited to a camera angle.

>ww
More islands and shit to do, more dungeons, actual underwater dungeon and atlantis like world
>tp
Add an actual dark world instead of just one dungeon, fix the damage scaling, add actual side shit to do
>ss
Battle the beast like 2-3 times not 12, change the overworld beeing an actual good hub, change character design (except zelda), no green hat for link so we have the minish cap continuity, motion gimmick

ALttP has plenty of non-complex and poorly designed levels.

This only applies to the taking the "world" of the game literally. As an abstraction, as a game, it objectively is more elegant at showing the level to the player than a limited camera angle as in full 3D games.

Such as?

>objective objective
Nice assertion

>t objectively is more elegant at showing the level to the player than a limited camera angle as in full 3D games
It objectively shows tiny amounts and never the whole.

Golden Pyramid.
You just drop on to Ganon.
It should have been lenghty dungeon with re-fights of all Dark World bosses.

Apart from that Tower of Hera was too linear after the first 2 dungeons, so I pick that.

Honestly probably the 6th in the Dark World. It just doesn't feel like it has much character to it, boss fight is super easy, and the cane of somaria isn't really used that much in the dungeon.

The one where you deal with an inconsistent sword hitbox

It shows what needs to be shown to the player practically instantly, this is not always the case in OoT.

Link to the Past relies way too much on cheesy physics and just plain bad save spots when going through the the dungeons. A lot of puzzles in Link to the Past require a great deal of backtracking if you miss one element of what you need, with no quick way to get around the dungeon. For instance, in the ice temple there’s a block puzzle where you drop a block from the floor above you to get a switch turned on. But to reach the block you have to climb back up through two previous floors! I had the puzzle solved, but in order to actually implement my solution I had to trudge through several layers of previously solved rooms, which I found to be a persistent element in most of the dungeons. Not being able to immediately test your puzzle solution is not good design in my opinion, and most other Zelda games handle this much better.

I agree, that wasn't the best dungeon in the game. Still has a fair amount of complexity to it though

>It shows what needs to be shown
>needs to be shown
Not even the enemies on the next screen are shown.

>As an abstraction, as a game, it objectively is worse at showing the level to the player than a fully controllable camera angle as in full 3D games.
Consider a moving 2D top down like final fantsy

The Ice Palace is kinda bad, but not as uninspired as most of the Zelda 2 dungeons where pretty much every key is in a dead end. And if you bomb-jump and skip the blue mail it suddenly becomes a nice dungeon with a strong boss.

The first Zelda game had some odd moments as well. Where you could be halfway dungeon 4 and if you didn't do dungeon 3 you don't have the ladder and get stuck halfway. Or you can somehow use all the keys on wrong doors and have to buy one. Which was a nice feature in my opinion.

Part of the dungeon design is backtracking, as it is in any other Zelda. However, in a game like this, where each "room" is its own map, having to down something on a completely different level without seeing the effect right away is infuriating. Later Zelda's fixed this because they could show, via cutscene, what was effected by what you just did (shooting the Forest Temple thing to twist/straighten the corridor in OoT, hitting a switch triggers a cutscene of what was effected, etc.).

Again your complaint doesn't make sense taking the game as a game. Nowhere do you really need to know what enemies are in the next room, so no real "impeding" is done. And OoT is exactly the same anyway, except you can be in a room and not necessarily know where an obstacle or enemy is immediately.

What needs to be? I've wandered into mini-boss rooms by accident because there was no special door to them. Take Minish Cap where I remember being stuck in rooms where I had to kill everything and I didn't know I was wandering into one.

>Nowhere do you really need to know what enemies are in the next room
Yes. What if I'm out of bombs or arrows and I need them to take down a specific foe?

>can‘t advance dungeon 4 if you don‘t have item from dungeon 3
Honestly that‘s how I wanted botw. Huge hidden dungeons you could only advance if you found specific items in the world. That‘s what aonuma promised to me that faggot.

>Nowhere do you really need to know what enemies are in the next room, so no real "impeding" is done.
>you can't be allowed to know what's next before it is
The absolute state of things.
>And OoT is exactly the same anyway, except you can be in a room and not necessarily know where an obstacle or enemy is immediately.
Not at all. oot's style means a room would be linked by a door instead of a screen wiping transition

>Nowhere do you really need to know what enemies are in the next room
What if user just wants to?

Before, you'd really just trial and error. If you lost, you'd just restart and take what you knew and reapply it to a new try. If you ran out of magic and died, then you'd know on the next try that you needed to leave the temple to get magic potions before trying again. So stuff like preeemptive seeing can be helpful

I don't see the backtracking as a bad thing, since these games are intended to be about learning to navigate the layout of dungeons. That's something that game understands really well about how to use multiple floors. The instance one of you mention about pushing a block down a hole in the Ice Palace I thought was a good implementation of this, though I do see how a cut-scene could clarify to the player how it works better (but might teeter on the edge of hand-holding). I'll concede that this may be something OoT does better.

>nd OoT is exactly the same anyway, except you can be in a room and not necessarily know where an obstacle or enemy is immediately.
You would. There's first person, there's ways to look ahead further from across one screen, there's even Navi telling you to be careful of shadows.

bandwagoner retards.

>I don't see the backtracking as a bad thing

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>I don't see the backtracking as a bad thing, since these games are intended to be about learning to navigate the layout of dungeons.
Have you played metroid prime or any other time you walk back through places you've already seen or bomb every wall just to see if something changes? Backtracking isn't inherently bad but it can lead to enormous boredom through going through what you've already been though. A nintendo power interview said this is a problem with some prime games, which is why they wanted stuff like an enemy attack to make the return trip more exciting.

But can't you see why this lacks the immediacy/elegance of the 2D games? The fact that you have to go into first-person and have dialogue to know these things?

>since these games are intended to be about learning to navigate the layout of dungeons
If backtracking means I have to go to the top floor, then the bottom, then return to top, etc over and over, it gets tiresome.

>But can't you see why this lacks the immediacy/elegance of the 2D games
There is no immediacy. As I've said before, you would in OoT, so no it isn't the same. You can't see in ALTTP what you can see in OoT.

Never played Metroid Prime. The rooms in TLoZ and ALttP are small and succinct enough that it's never a real frustration going through them again imo

>mmediacy/elegance
His previous post was rejecting your
>Ocarina is the same way
by saying you can do that in ocarina so it isn't the same.

>The rooms in TLoZ and ALttP are small and succinct enough that it's never a real frustration going through them again imo
>t's never a real frustration going through them again
Are you kidding me? Having to walk to the other end of the dungeon?

>The rooms in TLoZ and ALttP are small and succinct enough that it's never a real frustration going through them again
What.

>WW
More content that isn't just space filler, maybe always have a handful of dungeons doable in any order.
>SS
less handholding
>TP
minigame for wolf link in which you fuck Midna

>The rooms in TLoZ and ALttP are small and succinct enough that it's never a real frustration going through them again imo
I'm fucking done. They aren't so small when you're going through tons of them to get to the other end. It's absolutely not.

In 2D games, you can't see shit anyways, so who cares about elegance when you're blind.

I don't see your point at all. You're saying that you can see things in other rooms than the one you're in in OoT (even though you can't, or at least rarely)

>elegance
It's not elegant. It's clumbersome and requires more periods of inbetween waiting than a 3d game. That is not elegance, it's the opposite.

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>The rooms in TLoZ and ALttP are small and succinct enough that it's never a real frustration going through them again imo
Tell that to those who find backtracking painful here

The point is that you said it's the exact same in OoT. I'm saying it isn't, and that you can see further in OoT. Thus their vision isn't identical.

>which obviously shows the environment more elegantly to the player than a limited camera angle that they have to move
That's actually a bad thing. There's no way to have secret stuff behind something because the camera can't change. No way to hide stuff from the player to surprise them. That kills lots of potential.

ALttP was a game about exploring and learning the layout of levels so backtracking is necessary, I don't see why you'd play these games for instant linear progress

>ALttP was a game about exploring and learning the layout of levels so backtracking tediously instead of backtracking enjoyably
Consider how so many other games have ways to warp or so many shortcuts to make reruns easier.

>ALttP was a game about exploring and learning the layout of levels
This doesn't explain why it'd be good to have to backtrack extensively. A few rooms is okay but there's times where the backtracking might as well be having the door you came locked and needing to go another exit and a new path.
>I don't see why you'd play these games for instant linear progress
This isn't linear progress, this is going through the same, identical place twice instead of anything new.

>ALttP was a game about exploring and learning the layout of levels
So are some Metroid games and they find ways to make backtracking fun i.e. new power-ups and new paths

This is a good point, but Egoraptor's argument was that it was a translation of the 2D games into 3D, so it retains the same level design tropes but with the limitations of a new camera that doesn't suit it. The instances that use the camera for the obscured things you mentioned aren't the most inspired, either (e.g. finding an eye to shoot on a wall)

ALttP has shortcuts
>This isn't linear progress, this is going through the same, identical place twice instead of anything new.
It's the player learning the layout of a dungeon. You are arguing that it's okay if it's just a couple of rooms (which is the case for most of ALttP anyway), but this actually prevents more complex level design.
So do TLoZ and ALttP.

This. I remember a metroid game where you get the speed booster & you can't go back from where you came so you speed booster through a new direction to get back. Teaches how to use the new stuff too.

Here's what I'm saying:
OoT has the same room-based structure for dungeons as ALttP (mostly) has, except you can't always immediately take in and understand the room as you can in the 2D top-down games.
You (or another person) have said that OoT actually allows you to see enemies in another room, unlike ALttP, giving you a better perspective than that game.
I've said this isn't actually the case, except maybe some rare occasions.

>shortcuts too
Different guy but come on none were anything like MP3 spicing things up. Those shortcuts are also barely interesting unlike them. I'd rather do the Fire Temple guy and jump off that large jump or minsh cap teleport panel.

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See previous posts and stop regurgitating same addressed stuff

No one has explained why the 3D perspective gives you more insight into what's ahead. That would mean you could see into "the next room", which you can't.

You gain new items to help go through prior rooms in TLoZ and ALttP quite often, and there are bombable walls for shortcuts. Enemies often don't respawn either, so there's not actually much hassle going through them again.

Different guy but come on this is obviously bait. You discussed the camera style in abstract then jump to games? you dont even discuss right or what they wrote about each square in link being not even a full screen of oot. with these crap straw man tier stuff, saying stuff like and are exceptions just for being against your point while nothing on why they are, it's no wonder support hansen.

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Different guy an I can read theirs & understand. Consider rereading and no spoonfeeding. no need for them to repeat.

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>you dont even discuss right or what they wrote about each square in link being not even a full screen of oot.
I have, here is the most recent post about it:
I'll admit I was wrong about the Deku Nuts, but as I said earlier it still doesn't stop the fact that the game mostly allows you to wait behind a shield and rarely demands you do much extra. I don't "support" anyone, I just know that his criticisms in that video were completely valid.