Was he right to murder Torygg and leave the Empire?

to be fair he was being fed false information from the elvish cunts so for all we knew he thought torygg was full emp.

>the dragonborn
>having any real power or choice
dude cant say no to save his life.

Except it was.
Thalmor agents had full fucking reign to walk imperial territory

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He could have, you know asked.
>Hey Thorigg. You down for rebelling against the empire?
>Sure, why not. If it mean we get the cult of thalos back.
>Perfect, kid. Let's do it.

Not really. Originally, as long as there was no outward proof of the empire breaking the treaty, they had no right to come in, and if they knew about peoples venerating Thalos, they would have to admit to have spies, which would break their part of the treaty.
So instead they manipulated the Ulfric to start the Stormcloack rebellion, so there was no way for the empire to hide that peoples were still venerating thalos. And so, the empire was in breach of contract, and they could send their police.

hindsight is 2020.
its like looking back at real history and thinking 'hey, why dident they do this?'

Honestly though its shit writing, nothing more, nothing less.

Yeah, the Thalmor didn't get directly involved until after the Markath Incident (which the Thalmor apparently had a hand in, having Ulfric as a contact even). Markath Incident is where Ulfric made a fuss about the Imperial Forces having to acknowledge Talos and endorce his worship, they did and hoped the Aldmeri Dominion wouldn't find out, and then of course they did because now it's an official thing and not just "hey we don't micromanage the hicks let's focus on more important things" while keeping a Talos shrine in your closet.

Justified? Yes.

Right? Fuck no. Dude's a fucking dumbass who can't see the big picture worth a shit.

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Ulfric is just shortsighted

>implying it's a prediction
>implying it's not the sheer volume of skyrim copies sold having a measurable effect on the modern psyche

It was Todd plan all along.

>Holds loyal to the empire are generally peaceful, prosperous, and overall doing well for themselves. See Solitude, Whiterun, Falkreath, ect.

>Holds loyal to the Stormcloaks are generally poor as shit, run down, and have a fuck ton of problems. See Windhelm, Winterhold, Riften, ect.

Really makes you think.

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That happened literally one time.

He was right, but for reasons he wasn't aware of. By resisting the Thalmor he opposed their goal of finding a way to unmake reality. Now, his intervention wasn't necessary, Shor took care of that with his Shezarrine, the Dragonborn. But when the stakes are all of mortal existence, you hedge your bets.

Torygg was a lost cause, he was a mewling fanboy who had been raised by a vampire.

Winterhold's problems stemmed from the College, not Ulfric. The guild in Riften was on it's last legs until TLB showed up. Windhelm is...old, and had a serial killer, but for the most part is fine. So, what exactly are you complaining about?

>being this delusional

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>The Thalmor are literally a stand in for Todd Howard and his plan to collapse reality with as many copies of Skyrim as possible.

The source of the problems isn't the point. It's the complete inability for the Stormcloak-loyalists to actually handle them with any measure of grace or actual responsibility.

Winterhold's Jarl could try to rebuild, fix up relationships with the college, ect. Instead he sits around and complains all day and when you finally do get to do a quest for him, instead of helping his old at all he sends you get a Helmet to impress Ulfric-Senpai instead.

Imperial Holds have problems too, but their leaders aren't shitlords and generally try to actually be leaders for the people they're responsible for.

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Ulfric did nothing wrong.
iF sKYRIM WAS A WARM LAND AND THE INHABITANTS WERE LITTLE BROWN PEOPLE WITH FEATHERS IN THEIR HAIR NO ONE WOULD BEGRUDGE THEM THEIR RIGHT TO THEIR HOMELAND!

I mean, Balgruuf is like, the most competent Jarl in my opinion, and it say something that he chose the empire over the stormcloak.

Sure but it's not their homeland, stormcumlord. They took it from the Ford
sworn like the cucks they are, and have the gall to start whining about the Rights of Nords and Liberte, Egalite, et Fraternite. God the Stormcloaks are trash.

>dunmer complain that stormcloaks dont like them
>dunmer refuse to help the city they live in with the war
>dunmer who consider other dunmer who spend too much time outside morrowind to be niggers

>10 hunter-gatherer bretons live in a cave in the southeast of skyrim
>they think that gives them ANY claim

Balgruuf is also a womanizer who cheated on his wife and has a kid who's a literal psychopath, but I suppose you can sorta write that off as the influence of a Daedric Prince through the Ebony Blade that he thought was a good idea to keep in his basement for whatever reason. Could've given that shit to Vigilants of Stendaar to deal with or something.

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>Nord shit on Dunmer
>Nord ask Dunmer to help
>Dunmer say "fuck off"
>Nord bitch because Dunmer don't care about them.
That sort of things can go both way.

All things considered, everybody in Skyrim has bad eyesight.

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Patrician's choice of faction coming through!
Remember, lizards and cats are still property.

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Yeah, well, the fact that every Dunmer group except House Redoran is shit was something we kinda knew since Morrowind.

>Balgruuf is also a womanizer who cheated on his wife and has a kid who's a literal psychopath,
If that the price to say to a competent ruler, then so be it.

>Imperial Holds have problems too, but their leaders aren't shitlords and generally try to actually be leaders for the people they're responsible for.
No, you just have plots in Solitude to slaughter entire ships and stopping Potema by dumb luck, in Falkreath the Jarl takes money from bandits and is a complete prick who sees his position as a means to do whatever he wants, and in Markarth the Jarl is a puppet of the man who pulls the Forsworn's strings. Yeah, they're doing great.

Still doing better than the Stormcloak holds, by far. That's what's sad.

>Nords treat you like shit and put you in a ghetto
>Nords expect you to help them even if they treat you like shit
>Lizard does help.
>Lizard is rewarded by keep being treated like shit and not allowed to enter the city.

Do you really think any Dunmer actually want to help a city that treats them like subhumans?

>Balgruuf is also a womanizer who cheated on his wife
Now that's news to me, which (if true) is surprising, it's been years since Skyrim was able to show me something new.
> he thought was a good idea to keep in his basement
Wasn't really his idea, he inherited the problem, and it's not like it was really safe to go in there and do anything else with it. Until someone stole a key it was basically safely secured.
>given that shit to Vigilants of Stendaar
The Skyrim branch is woefully incompetent.

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Yeah, talk to the high elf merchant in Windhelm, she says plain as day the Dunmer bring it on themselves. She gets on fine, and she's the same race as the Thalmor. The Dunmer ACTUALLY ARE to blame for their problems.

How? Windhelm is fine, Dawnstar's problems are not of their own making (and once the Skull is sorted they're golden), in Riften if you don't active help the guild they never recover, the only one you have a valid point for is Winterhold because the Jarl there is a mopey fuck.

There are a few NPCs around the Whiterun palace that talk about rumors of the psychopath kid having a different mother than the rest of the Jarl's children. I think the kid talks about it too if you do his quest, and Bethesda apparently cut a quest line where you could drive the kid to murder his father because apparently that (like many things involving kids in videogames) was just a bit "too far" for them to be comfortable with.

You mean the same girl that buys stolen goods and has connections with a summerset isles thieves guild? That honest working altmer?

I didn't say she was a good person, I said (correctly) that the Nords in Windhelm don't treat her like they do the Dunmer. The refugees never did the one thing that is the responsibility of all immigrants. They never assimilated.

They were there first, and all they wanted was the reach. Peaceful cohabitation could have been achieved but no, the nords needed all of the land, they couldn't be happy with the majority of it.

The fact that Ulfric has not thrown them out of the city is plenty allready. think about it, this is medieval times, they are an OPENLY neutral and resentful population within the CITY WALLS. in the event of a siege they are likely to sell out the city at the first chance.
They have no loyalty thus they are not trusted. if they would side with, at the very LEAST, the city which they inhabit the stormcloaks would treat them better.

Just look at how they treat the PC if they are non-nord. They friggin love you, because you are a TRUE son/daughter of skyrim and FIGHTS for it.

Okay, but gossip doesn't actually make something true. And Balgruuf doesn't have a wife, it's entirely possible he had another child because he was a widower.

It was incredibly shitty thing to use the voice in the duel. Ulric could have beaten his ass fair and square but choose to use something sacred.

How can you trust someone to uphold your traditions but he doesn't respect it himself?

>They were there first
No they were not. They're squatting in Nordic ruins, Nords aren't squatting in theirs.

the hagraven-worshiping, abomination-making evildoing forsworn cavemen?
yeah, no loss

>He want to take the culture of the Windhelm.
You have shit taste.

The Voice isn't sacred, the Greybeards just treat it that way because Jorgen Windcaller was able to overcome all opposition. Being the strongest doesn't make him right, it makes him the guy that went grinding the most.

literally the only reason any of you support the storm cloaks is because of that retarded opening where the imperials try to execute you for no reason
i'm pretty sure that if players walked in on the conflict from a neutral angle the storm cloaks would have barely any support

The fact Ulfric let them become resentful in the first place show how bad of a strategist he is. Could have had a dunmer corp if they felt treated well, and they all can cast lightning.

I realize this may come as a shock but Ulfric's not actually racist. Some of the people under his command are, but you can walk up to him as an Altmer and he'll say he counts you as kin. Anyone who says he is racist (like that Free-Winter asshole) are simply, demonstrably, wrong.

Based and Toddpilled

No, I support the Stormcloaks because I support freedom, religious and otherwise, because the Thalmor are cunts who kidnap and torture people, and because he's voiced by Vladimir Kulich.

I never talked about ulfric. Windhelm is just, in general, a pretty shit place.

How were they treated badly, exactly? Is giving them a quarter of the city to live in (that doesn't look like a slum, mind you) bad treatment? What else was he going to do, force citizens to give up their own houses? How is that any kind of solution?

If the story of Red Eagle is something to believe, they allied to the hagravens to get the power to resist the nordic invasion.

Ulfric would have been right if he was in a world were there was unalienable rights, if freedom of belief was a thing. But it's not, and the best options for the time was to venerate Thalos in secret while preparing a fight.

> Murder
Drop the psy-op. It was a duel. The fact your weakling of a king never learned to defend himself don't make it into a murder.

Also, is this /tg/?

Based on what?

This is something that doesn't come up enough. Ulfric was a greybeard. He was a follower of the Way of the Voice yet decided to meddle with politics.
If I was in the Empire I'd be using that in ALL my propaganda, calling him Oathbreaker towards Skyrim's oldest traditions. Hell, with the recent dragon attacks I'd be happy to point out the Greybeards are descended from the ancient Tongues which fought against the dragons, and oh look at Ulfric abandoning them just as dragons re-emerge. The sole non-elderly member who can actually leave the monastery and chooses to hide in a castle. After using his stolen knowledge to kill a peaceful king. Some warrior he is!

There's so many ways to spin it, but you'd be excused barely being aware that Ulfric can use the Voice with how little it's used.

>He don't remember the first scene you see in windhelm.
You know, if Ulfric can't tell a bunch of drunkard to stop shitting in the dunmer district, he probably would have been a terrible high king. Like this was the least he could do to pretend he gave a shit and get them on his side.

>the voice isn't sacred, it's just treated as such and was bestowed by the gods
???

You're implying those guys were wrong to give that woman shit. Based on what you learn about the Dunmer later, they were in the right.

It's cold, it's ugly, peoples are dumb, I'm sure they are inbred and they couldn't solve the murder case themselves.

A lot of things were bestowed by the gods, that doesn't make them sacred.

>Ulfric was a greybeard
I through he simply made his pilgrimage and stayed a while.

How's a kid supposed to defend himself against Thu'um?

So, nothing then. You have nothing to actually criticize about Windhelm. Hint: There are things you COULD say that are valid, but I want to see if you can figure it out.

Wait, he was a real kid? I through he was just, like 20.

Versus what? A bunch of short-lived hairy apes who worship a false god and forgot how to wipe after the Empire left them behind?

Wards are basic spells and stop Shouts.

Okay I have to ask, what the fuck DOES make something sacred then? If it's not the fact it's literally from divinity, nor millennia of being treated as such.. how do you define anything as sacred?

Skyrim had the right to rebel as the very empire they helped create betrayed them and foreigners (elves) were deciding the future of their people.
With that said, logically the long-game is the better play to defeat the Altmeri Dominion by holding out with the empire to regain strength and eventually have elvish women bedded by the end of it.

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You know, this one's on me for not making it obvious I was trolling. Mea culpa.

NOTHING IS SACRED. ALL RELIGION IS FALSE. PAY DRACULA TRIBUTE.

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You meet him in Sovngarde, he's an adult.

>With that said, logically the long-game is the better play to defeat the Altmeri Dominion by holding out with the empire to regain strength and eventually have elvish women bedded by the end of it.
Someone have his priority right.
But I still think if someone make the whole situation worse for everyone, even if their behavior are understandable, they are not right.

what tricks were the dunmer planning?

Not everyone has magic. Mages are uncommon, the main character is unusual in that regard.

Torygg is more likely to have had zero magical ability than having it. He was also a political leader like the position had been treated as such for centuries.

Ulfric was That Guy for demanding a duel for the crown. And just because it's technically allowed doesn't make it okay.

Fair enough, so I'll say something that is wrong. Ulfric COULD (though the ongoing war makes it understandable why he would not at the time) expand Windhelm to the east, there's relatively open land there that would be easy to build another wall for to the water to keep secure, and give it to the Dunmer to build their own neighborhood in as they see fit. But Windhelm is the oldest human city in Tamriel that's not actually a ruin, and Ulfric seems to have no interest in altering any of it.

Torygg was raised by a wizard and a vampire, he had every opportunity to learn magic. But Ulfric's not responsible for what talents Torygg did or did not possess. He was simply stuck in a position he was born into. Regardless of his feelings for Ulfric, he had to go.

I still think the most hilariously stupid part of the Skyrim Civil war is that one guy getting executed for opening the gate in Solitide after Ulfric murdered Torygg. Out of all the people to execute for allowing this fucker to even leave the throne room, why the main gate guard? Unless Ulfric systematically murdered every guard, knight, and housecarl in the city with that shout as well.

this is basically how I imagine they'll settle things in TESVI.

>Empire and Stormcloak war was secretly concluded in peace and they keep up the appearance of war
>Empire uses this as an excuse to beef up their military while feeding Stormcloaks information
>Before the Dominion knows it Ulfric and Tullius go "you've been rused!" and both countries are nearly back at full strength and are pushing the dominion out of their territories.

No. Literally everyone except him knows that Tamriel is gearing up for round 2. Ulfric has been the (((Thalmor)))'s catspaw since the end of the war.

Windhelm has a serial killer on the loose but that's a small issue compared to the problems other holds have.

Exactly. No one complains about Hammerfell seceding from the Empire, and the treatment they got proves that the Empire only cares about Cyrodiil.
He was training to be a Greybeard before leaving to fight in the Great War.

You can hear that mewling bitch whine about how it was a fair duel and that Ulfric is right up until they chop his head off.

They're executing him because he's an obvious crypto-Stormcuck, at the end of the day.

or crown the dragonborn new emperor by right of being basically Talos

conspiracy theory

>Stormcuck,
how is standing up for your tribe cucking?
the empire is literally NTRing to the thalmor

Didn't Ulfric say himself he basically was relying on customs where kings are not allowed to refuse challenges of duels, shouted him, then stabbed him before Torygg could react?

In other words, he never actually did get the king's acceptance on the duel, it's just implied due to old traditions and normally, when a duel is called, participants are allowed to call on proxies to duel in their stead, even challengers.

>Markarth
>better than Stormcloak holds
sure our Jarl is an impotent figurehead and the Hold is really controlled by the Stormcloak-aligned Silverbloods and their Forsworn controlled opposition who are between themselves crushing out all the minor settlements but at least we aren't Windhelm!

That's really not the sort of thing that happens between TES games.

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Wow so much wrong here. First, the Forsworn wanted the Reach, not the whole country. Two, they had been ousted by Atmorans, not Nords. Three, Nords come from Atmorans, but only after they came to Skyrim, making it the homeland for Nords.

No, he didn't say that.

Are you retarded, or did you just not play the game?
en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

I could have sworn I remember Ulfric admitted he didn't really do anything spectacular.

I am at least certain he did say he just used FusRohDah to put Torygg on his ass and stab him before he could get back up.

It's the truth.
>inb4 reee Thalmor agent theory is shit, they called him an asset not an agent
You're correct, it is shit. Of course he isn't working with the Thalmor. But he's still their asset. He's essentially Lenin in WW1 when the German's secured his release from prison and sent him back to Russia, because they knew he'd start some serious shit. And they were right, he caused the Russian Revolution/Russian Civil War. Same with Ulfric. The Thalmor sent Ulfric back because they knew he'd cause some serious problems for the Empire... and he did.

Why would he learn magic? He's not a warrior, a soldier, or.. well, anything needing magic. Even if he HAD picked up some magic, he'd learn things like magelight or illusion as a politician over wards and fireballs.

Anyone here CAN learn how to use a firearm and develop the skill. How many of us bother to? Anyone here CAN learn higher mathematics. How many of us bother?
Same is true in Elder Scrolls.

Torygg was by NO MEANS a poor king for not having martial ability. Being able to fight one-on-one was about as relevant as being able to make a gingerbread house for the position.
And even if Torygg was an excellent fencer, with the ability to throw firebolts and summon atronachs, Ulfric shouted him down without his opponent being able to do anything.

You can ask him if he killed Torygg WITH a shout, he says no. He just used it to stagger the kid them kill him. At worst, he used the Thu'um to end the fight as quickly as possible while also showing he possessed a power Nords hold in high esteem.

That's how Ulfric claims it happened. A thuum-sword one-two. The vampire lady in Solitude was there, and claims he just shouted him to death.

I think this is another example of where Ulfric's outlook was skewed.

Ulfric is an old-style nord who felt that leadership also demanded martial or at least magical prowess. He basically saw being a good warrior and being a good leader as the same thing.

But Torygg and the Empire match our more modern thinking that politics is a trade in of its own and while it helps to be knowledgeable in many fields to master it, being able to suplex a bear is not really one of them. It looks cool on the resume but administration, delegation, and leadership rarely call for that.

...yes, and? It's not Ulfric's fault he was more dangerous than Torygg, there has never been a fair fight, ever, in the history of anything that has ever existed. Ulfric needed him to die to achieve his goals, which he saw as necessary. He says it the first time you meet him, he's doing this so all the fighting and killing he's already done wasn't meaningless. He's right to oppose the Empire. Now, had the Empire bothered to let him in on certain things and actually talk, things might have turned out different. But dissent isn't limited to Skyrim, keep in mind there is a plot to kill the Emperor, from among his own council. By taking Skyrim, Ulfric has created an unbreakable bastion the Thalmor can't meaningfully attack (unless Bethesda writers are entirely retarded...which they might be). There are four roads into Skyrim. Through mountains. Two of which are always locked in snow, and two enter the country from an ash-choked wasteland. The coast is filled with icebergs. There is nowhere an invading army can approach from that would not put them as a massive disadvantage.

I'd go with "Ulfric shouted, Torygg was basically dead and reeling when he suddenly got a foot of steel in the chest."
Vampire is correct in Torygg being dead after the shouting, Ulfric is correct in that he did a Shout-sword combo.

>Ulfric is an old-style nord
Yeah, the good kind.
>He basically saw being a good warrior and being a good leader as the same thing.
What gave you that idea?

>By taking Skyrim, Ulfric has created an unbreakable bastion the Thalmor can't meaningfully attack
Ex-Fucking-Scuse me. How do you figure?

>unbreakable bastion
You amuse me.

>By taking Skyrim, Ulfric has created an unbreakable bastion the Thalmor can't meaningfully attack
[laughs in mirror-logic]

How does an invading army get in? There are four narrow passes, child's play to defend. Two of them are frozen, and two enter from Morrowind, which the Thalmor a) do not control, and b) is a wasteland. Most of the coast is blocked by icebergs, the very instant you snuff out a lighthouse, a ship crashes. Landing along the north coast means making camp in the coldest part of the country, land topo close to Winterhold and the mages burn your ships, land too close to Windhelm and you're fighting an army before you can disembark, the only place is west of Solitude, near Volkhiar. But landing there puts you at the base of a mountain range you'd need to cross (fighting uphill through more narrow passes) or straight for Solitude and another army. Attacking Skyrim from the outside is difficult bordering on suicidal.

this might mean something if the Thalmore didn't all but outright disdain physical fighting and relied mainly on magic.

>this is what n*rds actually believe in

That's not really going to help them in this context.

The problem is entirely with Bethesda's conception of what it means to be morally ambiguous. No side is better or worse than the other because they've been specifically tailored to be mirrors of each other. Each faction has the same number of shitty leaders and the same number of respectable leaders and the same number of who gives a shit leaders.

Information on the conflict is vague at best, so players can read into events however they want. How strictly was the talos ban enforced? How acceptable was Ulfrics battle to the death challenge? In what capacity was he an "asset" to the Thalmor? How actively is the Empire working to throw off the aldmeri yoke? The game hints at a lot of things, but there's little concrete truth that everyone agrees on.

It's not like New Vegas where each faction has very clearly stated agendas and the backstory for the conflict is readily available. Bethesda doesn't want players to feel as though they've made the "wrong" choice, so they intentionally balance out each side to be equally sort of shit.

see this user's point
It doesn't matter. If you defend a passage with a bunch of tightly packed soldiers, yeah, probably won't be able to melee their way through it. But a fuckload of Thalmor mages can just go wild and burn them all alive. Then you have to either A. Retreat. B. Keeping throwing more men into the fire until you run out. Or C. Attack, in which case they just fall back while still throwing magic at you. Then what, you chase them out into the open and completely lose your advantage?

>How does an invading army get in?
Magic? Thalmor aren't part of the Empire, they don't care about the ban on levitation

Yeah, Skyrim also has mages that can do that right back. Having more mages doesn't matter, because chokepoints are FOR denying the value of numbers. And arrows have just as much range as spells, and aren't stopped by wards.

>implying Skyrim mages are anywhere near on the level of the Thalmor
Nigga you WHAT

Did you forget to let fall off the board before reposting?

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>levitation
Sounds like a great way to get shot.

autist posted it on /tg/ as well for some reason, based mods moved it to Yea Forums

What? It's not like fireballs are particularly advanced spells.

Ulfric shattered Skyrim's potential for an Imperial counter-offensive, drew additional Thalmor interest, forced the Empire to spend additional resources in attempting to pacify the region and pick up the pieces AND broke the province's capability to respond the dragon and vampire threats.

Nigga just stay on your goddamn mountain and pray to Kyne.

>skyrim also has mages that can do that right back
Except, no. Also, the College doesn't care about Ulfric.

By what? Crack commando teams of stealth archers patrolling the borders to make sure armies of Thalmor aren't floating over the mountains?

The point is that the Thalmor have a vast amount of mages compared to Skyrim. And those mages are also better nearly every single way. It's kind of the Dominion's thing. Like how Skyrim is known for producing hardy warriors.

Actually in this context Ice Storm would be a better choice...which favors the Nords even more, as they'd take half damage from it, Thalmor however take full and get fucked.

No, just normal patrols would be more than enough.

Patrols in the sky?

It's still a battle fought in choke points, one Nord mage throwing Ice Storms down the road is just as effective as ten Thalmor throwing fireballs back.

You know what, since this is a Skyrim bitching thread...

Where the FUCK were the Nord sailors? Nords have two things going for them. Stronk warriors, and Sailing. It was a major part of their identity, they took to the seas all the goddamn time but in-game there's like.. three ships and basically no major maritime tradition on display. The biggest port is owned by Imperials, the second-biggest by Nords but run by Argonians and Dawnstar, the only full-Nord port, is literally shit.

Where my magic vikings at?

just cast chameleon and blast those patrols into oblivion

Okay now you're just being retarded. Sending your mages (and only your mages) floating into the air with no cover is a completely shit tactic against a country where hunting is a necessity, by the very nature of Skyrim it's soldiers would be good shots. And if the mages land, then what? They run around with no infantry support, leave the armies at the passes with no magic, and get hunted down and killed before they can accomplish anything.

No, not at all. That doesn't make any sense. Even one Thalmor mage is going to generally be better than one mage from Skyrim. Again, it's kind of their thing. But no
>NORDS ARE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING
Come on dude, every race has their "thing" and just saying that a Nord mage would be as effective as 10 Thalmor mages is ridiculous.

Sure, because that's a dumb thing for ten mages to do. If a few of them went support and started casting things like Restore Health, Resist Frost or Reflect Magic then the nord mage dies like an imga.

???

Are- are you basing this on Skyrim game mechanics alone where icy storm was OP?

They don't have to be the best. That Thalmor mage being better isn't really going to help him.

>That Thalmor mage being better isn't really going to help him.
What the fuck are you even saying right now? Are you actually saying that being much more skilled isn't going to help? Fucking what?

No, I'm basing this on the fact that, in lore, Nords are highly resistant to cold, and Ice Storm goes in a straight line through targets. And since in THIS CONTEXT the battle is fought in a mountain pass, that makes it the most OP weapon in the universe, since you have no choice but to stand in a perfect position to get killed by it.

>Having more mages doesn't matter, because chokepoints are FOR denying the value of numbers
You're thinking far too two-dimensionally. You're talking about a magical setting where casters can fly and destroy solid walls at a whim. There's lore stories about entire armies using water breathing to march across the seabed. Acting as though what would be a chokepoint in the real world has any bearing on the world of TES only demonstrates your lack of imagination.

Oh god you actually are basing it on that.

>by the very nature of Skyrim it's soldiers would be good shots
lolno, snowniggers are basic bitch archers

You can't be this dumb. I'm saying (and try to READ this time) that individual skill means less because the strongest spells in this context are far less useful against Nords than they are against elves. The Thalmor soldiers will die faster, leaving the wizards alone. What happens then? Arrows block out the fucking sun, and magic skill suddenly means nothing.

>hey guys let's fly
>promptly gets shot a hundred times because you have no cover

Okay, you realize that you're also basing your argument on game mechanics. Because (news flash) Imperial bans on spells mean nothing in a Skyrim that's not part of the Empire anymore.

>nords shoot arrows
>rows and rows of Thalmor mages just burn them to ash in the sky

>casts Magearmor
>laughs at Nords with their shitty steel arrows while summoning their dead to fight for you

>what is the shield spell
>what is flying archers/spellslingers launching volleys down onto the equally coverless ground forces
>what is invisibility
>what is teleportation
Again, you seem to forget this is a world in which magic is ubiquitous. You keep acting as though conventional non-magical combat has any chance in taking on an army augmented by magic. Your position is retarded.

>rows and rows of Thalmor soldiers die in the passes with no mages to defend them
>Skyrim army goes mage hunting

user, the whole point is that the mages in the back burn the arrows while the mages up front attack the soldiers.

>you seem to forget this is a world in which magic is ubiquitous.
You're defeating your own position, because you're acting like no one but the Thalmor knows magic can do these things.

>nord archers bring themselves forward to shoot at the mages
>laughs in bosmer

So, you've changed your argument to mages levitating AT the passes to support their infantry?

>Sending your mages (and only your mages) floating into the air with no cover is a completely shit tactic
Which is why we were talking about having the entire army flying over the mountains, you can't actually argue against that so you're trying to change the hypothetical because Nords suck.

>I'm the same guy as the others

>bosmer
>being relevant

>was he right

yes, obviously. might makes right and ulfric BTFO torygg. that's just how it works.

morality isn't real, snowflakes. it's all about power. ulfric seized power, proving that he deserves the throne.

its called will to power, libtards. deal with it. ulfric literally did nothing wrong.

>Falkreath
Overrun by bandits with the jarl taking a cut, its just as corrupt as Riften but better obscured.

No, shit. Which is why any sane strategist would see the obvious problem with considering a mountain pass a viable chokepoint. It literally only works if you're fighting an enemy who can only employ conventional tactics. If the enemy can literally fly over the mountains, he doesn't need to use your chokepoint. He can enter your territory anywhere. And circumstances now demand you spread your forces thin to cover the entire border, as the entire border is available as an access point. This is trivial shit, user. You shouldn't need it explained to you.

Sounds like you need to talk with the "not everyone can do magic" guy first, then we can talk about this.

Why do we have two of these threads...

Not everyone in the Thalmor army is a mage. Most are not, and only occasionally will you run into a soldier who can manage a Bound Sword. Random elf #3482 isn't going to be able to cast any of those spells.

>mages make infantry levitate
>infantry don't need to use the passes
Shit like this literally happens in lore. Why are you assuming wizards can only cast spells that affect themselves?

...

>full fucking reign to walk imperial territory
And yet in all that time they weren't fucking with the Nords over their beliefs.

Nords are great allies to the Imperials because the Imperials can cover their weaknesses. It's arguably why the Imperials were able to hold the Empire, because they could cover the weaknesses of other races while being generalists themselves. Imperials working with Altmer? Heavy armor soldiers covering their mages. Imperials working with Redguard? Imperial battlemages weaving protections over the Redguard swordsmen.

Altmer vs Nords is a mage-heavy army who broke the Empire vs a tanky army with little magic support.
Altmer have SO MANY more options than the Nords in this scenario due to their magic. And no, ice storm doesn't really mean shit. It's just a good destruction spell that Ulfric will have a few casters for. The Thalmor will have magic reflection, shielding, chameleon, levitation, elemental resist, elemental empowering, fucking TELEPORTATION, necromancy, atronarchs, daedric contracts, the list goes on. I haven't even touched illusion.

And don't forget Nordfag, that the college would have little to no reason to assist. Ulfric would be running with even LESS mages than the average Nordic population can offer. Poorly trained ones too for the most part. The good ones will be at the College or the Synod.

>Not everyone in the Thalmor army is a mage
All Thalmor soldiers have basic training in Restoration and Destruction magic, as is reasonable for a soldier on campaign to be able to patch up his own wounds and light a fire when he needs one. Leaving that aside there's no reason their mages couldn't cast levitate on the infantry.

>The Imperials knew well the power of faith and fanaticism. Engaging the armies of Morrowind with their god at their back was a fool's gambit. Rather than settle in for a protracted siege, the Imperials concocted a bold plan. Under cover of nightfall, their mystics weaved great spells of water-breathing. Thus ensorcelled, the heavily armored legion marched into Lake Coronati. At length, they emerged from the water like vengeful ghosts, thundered through the lightly guarded gates, and burned the fort like a bundle of dry kindling