*dabs on Civ*

Wopeoplekind

>No Precolumbian civilizations

it's shit

Attached: anxo-mijan-praza-oeste-ma.jpg (1920x1216, 1.27M)

>dabs on itself by using the endless legend combat system

I would usually say no, cause RoN wasn't a particularly excellent game, but we're clearly lacking a lot of RTS games recently

I would say you're a dumb nigger

They haven't announced all the civs yet. Cool your horses.
This is the kind of comment an incel would make. RoN is in the top 3 RTS games for sure.

But RoN is basic as fuck already

>RoN is in the top 3 RTS games for sure.
It is surely unique, but most of the mechanics in the game are surface level at best. This leads to lack of overall variety outside of civ bonuses

shouldnt be difficult to make something better than the snake oil that firaxis sells. they havent made anything half-decent since civ5.

what civilizations

garbage

The latest civ actually got stale really fast and started pushing the climate change myth, so i actually welcome another dev giving it a try.

>that primitive-greek hybrid to make them see more advanced than they actually were
Wew

The AI is even more brain dead than Civ6's

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Do we know anything about the game except what was in the gamescom trailer?

On what do you base that? Endless space ai was better compared to civ's ai, imo.

>People unironically thought that Sega's new AAA game was going to be a new Viewtiful Joe
Oof
Didn't you guys get the memo?
Sega makes strategy games now.

I miss RTS. Those game were everywhere back then. Makes me really wanna play Starcraft with my buds in a cybercafe that doesn't exist these days. Something about cybercafes that you can't get when you're playing online, in your own homes make me nostalgic. The cheers, yells, cursing and always someone watching your monitor when you're playing. As annoying as it was, those were great times.

>They haven't announced all the civs yet. Cool your horses.

There's been a ton of published concept are, none were featured, and they inherently also don't fit into the heavy Bronze > Iron > Classical > Medivial etc framework the game operates on where each civ is locked to their era; since Precolumbian civilizations, due to not focusing on metallurgical development as much/not being around for as long, didn't at all develop any metals past bronze even if they were more complex in other areas; and since,you know, they ceased to exist hisotircally, unless the devs will have hypotheitcal nations where they survived.

A pretty believable leak also said they'd only be added in DLC and it'd only be the Aztec, Maya, and Inca.

Which civilizations I want, or which civilizations as in you don't know them?

Yeah bro it's not like we have intact structures from that city with those exact artistic and archtectural motifs and a complete archeological ssurvey of it or anything OH WAIT

Attached: uweduerr dotcom need to change resolution url part to as high as possible Atetelco+-+002 Patio Blanc (2500x1668, 963K)

Attached: estado-de-mexico_destinos-principales_teotihuacan_03 visitmexico.abardev.jpg (1920x985, 336K)

Doesn't look amazing. Frankly, I hated all their prior games, so this probably won't be my thing either.

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Attached: mlcastle on flickr teotihuacan.jpg (4528x3020, 3.11M)

an for now that will be it, since I don't wanna derail the thread too hard; though I can post more photos or specific room layouts/reconstrunctions of specific buildings that are just shown as solid squares/rectacles here if people want

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That look like fucking a greek village.

Where is civilization, bud?

>humankind
was Mankind already taken?

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I'M ONLY HUMAN AFTER ALL

>A pretty believable leak
Put up or shut up.

Yeah, it was an old online game made by some frenchies. studio tanked a long time ago and the IP is held by some some octopus tendril shell company.

>hexshit

>made by endless trannies

>HUMANkind

Fuck off with your garbage and slit your wrists

it's a set of two patios in the atetelco complex, which is ; and is numbered 18 in the map key in ; you can see the two patios in the upper right of the photo When it was intact they would have formed a open air courtyard.

Pretty much all the rectangles for buyildings you see in were multiroom complexes like this, hence the reconstruction in ; it's pretty unique in that virtually the entire city's 150,000 populaiton were living in what were basically villas.

As far as it looking greek, that's just how central mexican archtecture looked bro (see pic, I don't know what to tell you. Aztec cities had a pretty simular set of archtectural and art motifs for their stone/fancier buildings, see pic

Not sure what your point is. You asserting they are just one off buildings rather then a whole city? You can see the city map in

arch.b4k.co/v/thread/474776113/#474781660

Attached: View of the Sacred Precinct of Tenochtitlan, Scott and Stuart Gentling DOWNSCALED COMPRESSED.jpg (6930x1421, 3.1M)

Civ is copying them you mean.

>arch.b4k.co/v/thread/474776113/#4747816
Come on dude. The fact that you know so much about South American history proves that you should be smarter than to believe some random shitposting faggot. The Civ VI leaker gave us some proof.

>South America

user South america has litterally the most obviously and clearly defined borders of any fucking continent, mexico is noewhere close to it.

> than to believe some random shitposting faggot.

Perhaps, but his claims aren't outlandish and it didn't really seem he was doing it for attention.

IDK user, he just seemed genuine to me.

Big buildings doesn't mean civilization.

>South america has litterally the most obviously and clearly defined borders of any fucking continent

That'd be Australia because the whole dungheap IS the continent. You can't walk off it and into another continent unlike all the others.

>don't fit into the heavy Bronze > Iron > Classical > Medivial etc framework the game operates on
They could be just using this as a more easily mentionable timeframe and not a frame of "progress".

It's Civ V 40k, but pure combat. No diplomacy, no peace, just kill everything and research better ways to kill everything. I liked it, but I can see others not liking it.

They've been doing that since CoH

Okay, sure, that's a fair point: Sites like Gobekli tepe or Caral have big monumental archtecture but were basically just ceremonial sites for tribes.

But teotihuacan wasn't just buildings, it's 22 square kilometers of a planned urban grid, 37 (which is twice the area Rome's walls encompassed) including the less dense areas. You have rivers re-coursed through the city in line with it's grid layout, and set to be seen from specic points in the city. The city housed a permanent residential population, there was a sewage system and plumbing, buildings had richly painted frescos in and on them, homes had fine furnishings of glazed cereamnics and sculpture; and the city's military conquered Maya city-states nearly 1000 miles away. You have clear soigns of craft specialization, with specific complexs like Tlajinga being home to Obsidian-workers as evidenced by the large amount of obsidian cores and fragements in the complex's trash area, or the Tetitla complex's (see pic) inhabatants having been shell tradeers as evidenced by similar evdience as well as consistent nautical and shell themes in the cereamnics, sculpture, inscenseburners, and murals in the complex, etc.

Also, by the time Teotihuacan was first founded in 200BC, the region had already had it's first formal state goverments for a few hundred years, writing around 600 years earlier, and earlier proto-urban sites with baseline monumental archtecture, class systems, and long distance trade over 1000 years earlier (or 3000 years before the Aztec, since Teotihuacan itself is 1000 years older then the Aztec).

Basically civilization in the region, even under the strictest definition of the term, had already been established well before this city.

>That'd be Australia
Well shit you got me there.

Perhaps, but I doubt it.

Attached: Tetitla, Teotihuacan, apartment compound. Adapted from Headrick 2007 5 by Jennifer A. Lucido, 2015.p (850x494, 76K)

I'll buy it/pre-order it. I trust Amplitude to make at the least a 7.5/10.

>climate change myth
imaging being so contrarian and anti-left that you start unironically believing climate change isn't real.

> Also, by the time Teotihuacan was first founded in 200BC, the region had already had it's first formal state goverments for a few hundred years, writing around 600 years earlier, and earlier proto-urban sites with baseline monumental archtecture, class systems, and long distance trade over 1000 years earlier (or 3000 years before the Aztec, since Teotihuacan itself is 1000 years older then the Aztec).
Can you back it up with proofs?

Don't respond to obvious bait user. Nobody who is actually that dumb would be able to learn how to read and write, much less navigate the internet and find this thread.

That was the worst fucking part of endless legend for me

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Organized peoples constructing big buildings suggests civilization

Isn't as easy to copyright tho

>suggests

Hi shill

Is there a 4x like game that has the pacing of Civ, but is purely single player. No AI opponents. I just like growing shit.

>humankind
That sounds fucking dumb.
Why not just use the term mankind?

Attached: what the fug.png (211x246, 11K)

Do you really need someone to explain why they wouldn't use MANkind in the current political climate?

You want Simcity. Even games with no combat in them like Mars Trading Company have ai opponents.

These guys looks precolumbian enough

Attached: hkmaya.png (780x1080, 1.2M)

I want SimCity but human history sim city.

huMANkind

Because Americans get upset about trivial details and people in Europe don't get their knickers in a twist over one word.

Attached: 07.png (778x1080, 1.37M)

As far as writing goes, here's Olmec writing (or proto writing, if you wanna be technical) from 900 BC. Sort of faint to make out in the image but if you google "Cascajal Block" you';ll see diagrams

There is, in fairness, some debate abnout it's authentcitiy. If you discount it, thent he earliest writing is dates to around 500-300BC, either being the Zapotec, Maya, or Epi-Olmec script (trhey all pop up around the same time).

The Zapotec city of Monte Alban is also likely the first place that had formal statehood, again, around 500-300BC. The paper "Primary State formation in Mesoamerica" (jstor.org/stable/25064850) talks about this in length (though some of what it says to disqualify el mirador raises my eyebrow, i've nevber heard of most of el mirador's mass construction projects being down in the classic rather then the preclassic before I read this paper for example, I still gotta verify that) though there's some who argue that San Lorenzo, the first major Olmec site, might have been a formal state all the way back in 1400BC, though I haven't looked into that yet, but this books.google.com/books?id=DQNK4BkMgWkC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=Statehood in mesoamerica&source=bl&ots=p0HsP-llLf&sig=ACfU3U1IEWj1U4caWxr4l_K7kO7qhYsdtA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp8M2nmpnkAhUkhuAKHVjzBKUQ6AEwD3oECGIQAQ#v=onepage&q=Statehood in mesoamerica&f=false touches on it

Huh, I mised that, you are correct.

Not happy wtih the Aztec sun stone pattern on the Maya temple, though. The clothing is also, like, completely fictional/has no basis in any mesoamerican clothing.

I think they did it just because "mankind" sounds sort of generic, wheras humankind feels more unique.

Attached: Cascajal Block.jpg (1206x1920, 656K)

Nice bait. Stop pretending to be British.

pump the brakes there, retard.

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>I wonder why

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Why would anyone ever want to pretend to be an anglo? Yuck

SQUARES? THEY BUILT FUCKING SQUARES?

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Ultimate brainlet

>Not happy wtih the Aztec sun stone pattern on the Maya temple, though
Are they Maya?

>people getting mad over based hex grid

Any good non-boring newish 4x?
Last one I tried was Endless Legends and it was so fucking tedious and boring compared to civ 4.

Release date: 2020

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you know nothing about the game outside of how it looks.

Annd reminder that their other Unity games crashed like crazy and had issues running on AMD systems.

Based Mesoposter

That's kinda neat. So instead of playing a glorified version of a society, you can delve into the more interesting sides of a culture. Like hiding the truth from your people in China, burning down a rainforest for cow farmers in the Amazon, or squatting everywhere in Russia.

(X)
>when Rodriguez and Ortiz retrieved the tablet, it was already removed from the ground, taking it out of its original archaeological context.
>Unfortunately, the authors determined the age of the block only indirectly, by studying ceramics shards found at the site, in the absence of a well identified and dated level of occupation

after civ 6, its not hard to make a good civ game

This is solid argument. Like it or not.

>claims civ v is the best
>it's a goty civ v who never played v vanilla where people were claiming it's the worst civ at that point in time

Or being a fatty tranny in USA

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The name alone screams "SJW". Hard pass.

California is a liability and we're actively trying to replace them with Puerto Rico.

I know you wanna shitpost, but that's not really new to Civ, remember Civ II?

Shammuramat would be cool.

I'm not pretending nor am I British.

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>Isabel Moctezuma
>literally less relevant historically than fucking Pocahontas
I am guessing most of them are of that caliber.

You racist, it's PEOPLEkind

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That's just a clickbait title and you fell for it.

see they used shit like Amaterasu back then

>Cautiously
Why? I mean Amplitude's games are fuckin good imo

Civ already does the one culture/one leader till the end of time thing.
I don't mind a different 4x taking another approach

>anita garibaldi
Irrelevant terrorist, she has done absolutely nothing important and lasting. Dom Pedro II's daughter, Princess Isabel, was much more important and useful.

>Mayan
>not Maya
Fuck these morons.

I seriously admire the patience of Mesoposter to endure Yea Forums's absolute brainlet userbase.

>implying he's not endlessly shat on on /his/ as well

>Swedish: Christina
I'm still mad

>implying /his/ is any better
Any narrative that doesn't follow the eurocentric one gets shit on there as well. People here are not looking to learn anything new.

>A western image board is eurocentric
Woah, that's so fucking unbelievable, dude. Maybe you should try Hue chan instead and stop bitching about representation in someone else's home.

>eurocentric

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Looking to learn anything new is too scary for a lot of people. You have to accept that you might not be right or might not see, or be able to see the complete picture. It might even be possible to never get to the truth completely. Just like these posts already show ,

>falling for this faggot bullshit

>passive aggressive post linking like a little bitch

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Etc
Yeah that's amazing that they built shit and invented writing. However didn't the Indians get stomped by the Spanish when they arrived? And I mean not just lost some wars, but totally crushed as if the conquistadors were some sort of space marines with technology 10000 years more advanced?
Something to think about

Plague and poor harvests killed more than the Spaniards did.

Reminder that southern "Europeans" aren't white.

I guess plagues and bad harvests never happened in Europe then!
Oh wait lol

The hell are you babbling about?

Mesoanon is too good for this site.

A lot of Indians died of diseases the Europeans brought with them. Estimate are difficult if not impossible to make but they range from 50 to 90 percent casualties in the Indian population. This also caused civil wars in the Incan empire for example due to succession problems with royals dying. The Europeans had more diseases than Indians because the 3 continents of the old wordl had a far larger base to produce new infections and virusses. Also people on the Eurazian plate had lived with all sorts of domestic animals while in the Americas there were only the turkey, lama, alpaca and the dog.

Hahaha, even these guys know Cleopatra is a horrible choice for Egypt.

>HuMANkind
Sorry, your attempt to be not sexist still failed

They did happen in Europe. That's the whole thing.

>Joan of Arc

mesofag deserves a bullet
Imagine defending shitty tribe which is failed to sustain itself.

And guinea pig, don't forget them.

The faggy title and making the Egyptians niggers shows that this "game" and it's devs are gigafaggots. End your worthless life shill scum.

Egyptian concept art looks pretty white to me lad

Civ 6 tranny on suicide watch

I've never researched it myself but it is very plausible that bad harvests would be less likely in the Incan empire for example. They had like 4 or 5 main food stapples and in Europe we had grain and in some regions 1 or 2 other closely related kinds of grain. Bad harvests were becoming less common and less destructive in Europe with the introduction of the potato, which wasn't widespread until the late 18th century. On top of this the Incans had farms for different crops in different biomes because of altitude differences. Their way of farming must have been far less susceptible than European farming conditions at the time.

But muh non-eurocentric AKA Marxist indoctrinated worldview muh did you know America had trade routes and flying teepees before Euros came? ughhh duhhh

>1 or 2 types of grain as the only source of food in Europe
Amerisociologist education

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As I said, the Cascajal Block is controversial. but what's not controversial is Zapotec (famsi.org/research/pohl/pohl_olmec_zapotec_script.html) and Maya writing (sanbartolo.org/science.pdf) going back to at least 300BC, potentially 600BC

No, they didn't get stomped.

The Spanish were almost entirely reliant on the armies of native cities to do the fighting for them, not just against the Aztec, but decades later against the other states in the region, even as diseases and epidemics ravaged native populations, and even with both diseases at play and native armies doing all the work, it still took the Spanish decades to actually subjugate most of Mesoamerica with some places actually never truly being pacified for centuries.

Had these native states decided to tell the Spanish to fuck off rather then helping them (which they did due to quirks of mesoamerican geopolitics, see pastebin.com/h18M28BR), or had they turned on the Spanish after they overthrew the larger empires like the Aztec, Inca, Purepecha, etc; then Spanish would have never been able to directly conquer either region (though you'd still probably see indirect imperalism via monpolizing naval trave/transportation and make the native empires depedent on them)

I talk more about how lucky the Mesoamerican Conquests actually was and how it easily could have failed in detail here desuarchive.org/his/thread/5526254/#5526329 and here boards.fireden.net/v/thread/441551507/#441565260 and why mesoamerican states allied with them due to how native geopolitics worked here: pastebin.com/h18M28BR; see pic for the Inca/Andes

Not to the same extent, see pic

You fucking moron, all the sources for this shit are either archeological or are from the 16th century. I guess Spanish friars are marxists according to you?

The protein defficieny think has been debunked for decades.

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The el nino/la nina periods give rise to periodic times of dry and wet weather, if one lasts longer it can lead to massive climate fuckery. crippling droughts or torrential flooding for instance.

They are irrelevant regardless of how developed they were. They weren't even that developed compared to the rest of the world anyway, literally ancient Egypt tier when Ancient Egypt was already several thousands of years old.

>see pic for the Inca/Andes
whoops, here

Attached: how lucky pizarro was to conquer the inca 2.png (1279x540, 118K)

This name is offensive against the attack helicopter people, we are going to sue you goy

Look at this desperate faggot.
>WE WUZ GREAT N SHIIET I SWEAR
>I ENDLESSLY DEFEND MUH BROWN GUYS ON 4CHINZ
>LOOK AT MUH ARCHIVED AUTISM

They deserved to be brought down by the based spaniards

There were 3 types of grain that were the basic food staple for every western Europeans for a long time. And not all of them were equally common in every part of Europe. Of those three barley has by far the biggest seeds and was the most profitable. Things like meat, vegetables, dairy products were part of diets too but those products were far more expensive and the first things to be cut when grain prices increased.

The Spanish turning different smaller kingdoms against eachother sounds logical but this would also have been helped by political instability caused by leaders dying of European diseases.

Some of your tribes self-destructed before Spanish.
>The protein defficieny think has been debunked for decades.
Strawman. Kys mesofag.
lame excuses
fuck off

God damn this studio is so good with sound and design, I still occasionally listen to Endless's OST

>non-eurocentric AKA Marxist indoctrinated worldview
How is marxism not eurocentric?

It isn't, it's also an eurocentric way to look at the world.

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spaniards were the big straw that broke the camel's back. every indian civilization in the Americas were in decline long before europeans came.

>WE WUZ KANGZ
>all of south america and mexico are complete shitholes because of the shitty people who live there
Really makes you think.

>no nigger civilizations
Based, what has subsaharan Africa ever made of note compared to the other civilizations?

>irrelevant

"relevancy" is relative. They are plenty relative to their own region. They are only irrelevant if you are looking at it from a Eruasian perspective to begin with, which is a mistake, since prior to the 16cth century or so influence and impact was mostly local and regional: There were exceptions, of course, but bottom line befpore the 16th century or so when europeans actually acheivie global influence, there was no "global culture" so there's no singular framework to judge relveancy or impact by.

Also, as I point out in , the Spanish Conquest of Latin America was only possible with the actions of native city-states, so it could be argued that they were highly impactful to world history, even if they weren't the ones who benefitted long term.

>lancient Egypt tier

The Mesoamericans were way more complex then the Ancient Egyptians in a variety of ways. For example, if you were paying attention and had actually followed the thread you'd know The image in the very post you are replying to shows a Mesoamerican city (Teotihuacan) with over 3x the population of the largest Bronze age city from either Egypt or Mesopotamia (150,000 vs Uruk's 40,000) and was almost 10x the largest bronze age city in physical area (37 square kilometers vs Uruk's 4 square kilometers). See also the pic for a different Mesoamerican city, Tenochtitlan vs not just Bronze age but also Iron age cities.

I agree that in a lot of ways they were comnparable to bronze age ciivlizations, but there's just as many where they were beyond them, though some mesoamericans were less complex then others.

>Ancient Egypt was already...thousands of years old.

Almost like humans didn't enter the americas till way later or something....

Also, by the time Japan got cities, Mesoamerica had had them for 1000 years, and that's with Japan getting shit from China when Mesoamerica didn't have any any other outside civilizations to trade with. You gonna shit on Japan as well?

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>all these desperate excuses
OH NO NO NO

>You gonna shit on Japan as well?
yes. this is Yea Forums, shitting on japan is half the shitposts on here.

It has a lot to live up to. Even with the relatively disappointing Civ6, Civilization is still the best 'medium weight' turn based strategy games out there. Very few have come even close (Age of Wonders). I'll wait until people actually have played it for 20+ hours to even form an opinion on it.

>You gonna shit on Japan as well?
Not him, but yes. Japan never achieved anything of value before the 19th century.

AIDS.

They are only complex enough to fade away into nothing. Cope harder, loser.

Mansa Musa in wider terms the kingdoms in the Niger delta, Ethiopia has always been based, the kingdom of Kongo. Modern day Africa is pretty cool too. Not actually reading anything about it and thinking you know what it is like is true eurocentrism.

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>Big buildings doesn't mean civilization
t.hut snownigger

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Is this going to be literally endless legend in a new setting?

What is British isles before Romans?

>The Spanish turning different smaller kingdoms against eachother sounds logical but this would also have been helped by political instability caused by leaders dying of European diseases.

It was less the Spanish turning them on each other and more them using the Spanish to take out their own political rivals.

Not gonna reply to blatent shitpostin (beyond noting calling them "tribes" when their cities were comparable to the greeks is stupid) but also brings up the "they were already collapsing!!!" thing, so I wanna address that.

I have no clue why I keep seeing people say this or where they here it from (Maybe people are getting confused with the Classical Maya Collapse, which is overstated to begin with), but no, Mesoamerican civilizations weren't already in decline when the Spanish showed up. The past few centuries before the Spanish arrived had seen strides made in metallurgy, political and govermental complexity (a switch away from theocracies and to formal monarchies, oligarchies,and republics) warefare, population growths, and intellectualism (circles of philsophers and poets, formal academia, etc)

I talk all about this here

boards.fireden.net/v/thread/473816781/#473824067
boards.fireden.net/v/thread/473816781/#473824871
boards.fireden.net/v/thread/473816781/#473825587

As long as you are consistent, anons

I'm not denying that? Yeah, they and the Andeans are the only highly developed high-cultures and civilizational spheres that got totally wiped out. It'sa a shame, we could have had a third tree of human history on top of the West and East. But them getting wiped out doesn't make them not complex or not worth including or that they weren't impactful to world history. .

>we could have had a third tree of human history on top of the West and East
If the Europeans hadn't turned their gaze to the Southern Hemisphere the Polynesian Islanders would have conquered the New World.

>muh sekrit klub
Gee, deadchan refugees already thinking here is home.

Go suck some spanish dick

Ok I admire your /his/ autism but holy fuck bro

It's shit, everything is shit these days

>b-bro ;_; I SWEAR they wuz kangz
>t-they wuz gonna be special n shiiet
Loving every laugh.

I'd rather have /his/ autism than deadchan autism

Word "Tribes" clearly hurt your feelings so much you doge the question.

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>beyond noting calling them "tribes" when their cities were comparable to the greeks is stupid
They were tribes, though.

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I must have missed it, what was the question?

Sorry, I went in a bit too hard this thread.

I didn't know that Cleopatra was a nigger.

Good post. Rwanda is based as fuck.

Not him but explain how

Why is she darker than her servants? Wasnt she greek?

THIS

Because WE

WUZ

KAAAAAAANGZ

I like her costume.

This title is clickbait. Instead of choosing 1 civ and playing as it for the whole game, you can essentially make a custom civ by adopting qualities from different real world civs throughout the eras.

Other Precolumbian civi- tribes. Why did they died before Spanish invasion?

>Why is she darker than her servants?
Yeah, that makes no sense.
> Wasnt she greek?
Ptolemy was Greek and his wife was Egyptian.

a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.
"indigenous Indian tribes"

It's more that people think they know all about Africa but in reality they know nothing. The news doesn't give Africans agency because the journalists writing articles are in many cases just as clueless.

Yeah me too.

This. The title is picked because it triggers people. I really like the concept because the culture you will be playing will in most cases be facing it's contemporaries.

Attached: 17.png (778x1080, 1.21M)

dropped hard

Every civ since III has been trash at release.
Vanilla nü-civ are basically glorified betas.

Multicultural in real life usually is a euphemism for multiracial.

>muh eurocentrism muh pronouns

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haahahaha

Maybe in the US and possibly in bigger cities but in Europe less so.

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WE

Europe was a very multicultural place while being all-white. Multiculturalism in Europe, despite this, has come to mean bringing in lots of brown people.

I said western, not secret. Nice reading comprehension, you fucking retard.

call it "mankind: from bronze to uranium" or some shit

Again, they didn't, the past few centuries before the spanish showed up had seen an increase in population, and technological and social complexity.

If you mean the classical maya collapse a full 800 years before the spanish showed up, then that was a combination of political instability from a massive war between the two most powerful Maya kingdoms and all their allies, combined with droughts which led to political instability (both from the wars and from the droughts, since the Maya had theocractic syansties and a sort of mandate of heaven system where promising fresh water and such as a king was part of that) and switching to unsustainable farming methods to deal with the drought and refugees swelling city populations, with it all creating a postive feedback loop

That said plenty of Maya cities survived in the northern Yucatan and thrived. In fact, the largest Maya state ever, the League of Mayapan, existed after the Maya collapse; and this was a speffically "maya" collapse. Other parts of Mesoamerica had some imprtant cities decline right before or aroiund this time too but plenty of others thrived and grew, etc. Teotihuacan's civil prising in 600AD for example isn't some mass social collapse across the region, it's just one city declining awhuile oithers got biggetr, etc

as long as you ar econsistent about it and would call the Athenians a tribe too.

Well, there is only so much cultural things you can get from white people only.
Multiculturalism is actually very hard to achieve as people usually stick to what they have and what they know, especially in more personal things, like morality.

>that they weren't impactful to world history
But they weren't impactful.
Disappearing with no real legacy is the very definition of unimpacftul.

>there is only so much cultural things you can get from white people only.
culture isn't linked with color of skin. you get have vastly different cultures among groups that share the same skincolor.

>Multiculturalism is actually very hard to achieve as people usually stick to what they have and what they know, especially in more personal things, like morality.
Funny, Europe had a tremendous variety of cultures and languages without le magic brown skin.

But even then Europe was heavily influenced by all the cultures arround it and even those further away or cultures that had already disappeared. Europe didn't exist in a vacuum.

A title consisting of one word is far more aesthetic.

This, too.

Attached: 09.png (778x1080, 1017K)

No, impactful means how much you altered the course of events and made decisions, choices, or discovered that influenced things, it doesn't nessscarily mean you leave a lasting legacy you are rembvered for.

Again, the Mesoamerican city-states and Andean city-states basically won spain the new world and were huge, critical factors in the spanish conquest, to the point where it's arguably not even a "Spanish conquest". Simply because that ended up backfiring on them and fucked them over in the end doesn't mean their particpation wasn't impactful.

also, again, prior to the 16th century, there was no global world history and you need to look at each civilizational sphere indivually tro judge impact, etc

anyways I am litterally falling asleep at my keyboard so I am going to bed

>sleeping at 12pm
bruh

>A title consisting of one word is far more aesthetic.
you know that civilization is not actually called civilization? it's called sid meyers civilization. but people only refer to it as civ because it is the only civ game (that matters). so the devs of this new game could call it "mankind: subtitle", and people would just refer to it as mankind anyway. and mankind: subtitle sounds much better than humankind.

It's not like the Aztecs would have been able to fight off the Europeans in the long run. They simply didn't have control over all of the Americas which meant Spain and Portugal were free to settle, which meant that they'd eventually be contending with much more powerful European nations on the same continent, rather than overseas.

>Manking: The Game
huh, it does sound better.

Based and vaultpilled

Regardless if it's real or not it's a shitty mechanic in a civ game

Whoever made this list (Dan Wohl) has absolutely no idea of history. There is so much false information there it's not even funny. This is just a shitpost.

why?

Rent free.
My point was that there are few things we take from other cultures and there is, I'm going to say not that much different cultures that only have/had only white people in them, and was unified in large countries a long time ago, though admittedly most still have their regional particularities. Add to the fact that europeans have been exchanging for centuries before considering to rest of the world like human beings and you have a somewhat unified european, white culture already. But as I said actual multiculturalism is very hard to achieve which is why most people still have a lot different opinions on pretty much everything.

>China will be the only civ you can play from bronze to modern eras

>w-we were the people who lost to the actually important people
>h-heh now that's a legacy

>modern china
>civilized

This is WE WUZ KANGZ tier crying.

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>different cultures don't count if they aren't multiracial
wew

Trying too hard.

No one KANGZ like whites these days. Whites on Yea Forums are the proverbial misty eyed old men reminiscing about the good ol' glory days

>deal with it
So fucking mad

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More civilized than Greater Israel.

Looks like I really hooked a high grade retard.

>gets put in his place
>rent free
ok lad.
>My point was that there are few things we take from other cultures and there is, I'm going to say not that much different cultures that only have/had only white people in them, and was unified in large countries a long time ago, though admittedly most still have their regional particularities.
... what?
>europeans have been exchanging for centuries before considering to rest of the world like human beings
You really think Europeans have continuously considered the entire world as subhumans for the past 4000 years? Like some kind of proto-nazis? That doesn't strike you as a comically distorted view of reality?

It was in SMAC and Civ II and was quite fun in those. They toned it down to keep it in line with predicted estimates.

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based Sam

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lmao. desperate shitskin detected.

that user triggered you all by simply changing the filename, and/or betting you'd assume it is cleopatra.
on the game's website, it's simply 'era1_nubia.png'
be harder to fuck with

>I said it was Cleopatra
>you said that doesn't look like Cleopatra
>OMG EPIC TROLLED I WAS JUST PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED
Wow.

Says the member of a race that spends the bulk of its time of this site screeching hysterically about how terrified they are of becoming a minority and being ethnically replaced.
Poor frightened boy with an old mans feeble soul. Shake your fist at the world a little harder, that'll show them darkies what for.

What I didn't change the file name on any of those. Are you messing with me?

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TL;DR. Dumb shitskin.

>Pyramids
>egyptian headwear
>white soldiers
>fucking pyramids of Ghiza
>queen is holding an ankh
>Nubian
user, are you sure you aren't the one trying to bait people out, here.

>put in his place
>retards assuming my opinions because what I posted somewhat disagreed with the previous post
>You really think Europeans have continuously considered the entire world as subhumans for the past 4000 years?
I'd say it was mostly antagonistic relations with the need to conquer or enslave, though that was the default thinking when met with vastly different culture or people, with a few successful trade relationships in recent centuries.

the future is brown, old man. Both your sons and daughters will be cheap whores and breeding stock for mines amusement.

I assume your opinion based on what you say and clain, user, that is how normal human beings operate. There is no need to greentext that. And that was a rethorical question, you are obviously dumb as fuck, for all your pompous way of expressing yourself.

>a list of literally-whos
Was making a joke of themselves part of their plan?
So they can assure they get attacked for their garbage?
"Oh noes, dem misogynists are attacking us good people for no good reason! Help us, donate, click our articles, we are getting oppressed."

I miss the times when we could discuss history games without devolving into this shit. The worse we'd ever get was retards with awful fashion sense talking trash on Osprey posting

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Just because I'm slightly disagreeing on some points doesn't mean I'm someone's antichrist and think the exact opposite on absolutely everything someone else said. Kinda why It's always impossible to have any discussion here.

More civilized than the majority of the us

kek
never go full retard

You are taking this way too personally. My original post was simply discussing your statement that white people have a limited range of cultures until you claimed that white people were some kind of historical racists throughout time, which is dumb as fuck, and deserves to be laughed at.

whatever you say chang

clearly someone in marketing didn't sync up with the graphic designer.
Picture of hand, tital is Humankind. Not Handkind

where were you when memes came to life?

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but there's a human inside the hand

handhumankind

Right here, were babies get their jimmies rustled over a picture.

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humhandkind

>your statement that white people have a limited range of cultures
True. Because as I said, they have been exchanging between each other for so long we essentially acquired everything we could or at least are willing to get from each other. It's the same for every other big continental culture groups, not limited to white people.
>until you claimed that white people were some kind of historical racists throughout time
Also true, but once again not limited to white people.
Of course, it'd be easier if you weren't a complete retard assuming me saying mean things about white people is the same as me thinking better about everyone else.

How am I triggered? It just makes no sense to nobles to be darker than commoners, since they spend less time under the sun.

What kind of civ will Yea Forums make?

I like Amplitude well enough, but all their games have been carries by how good their Endless setting and flavor is. I can't see them doing well enough mechanically to make a historical-setting game interesting

Dude it's the white hand of Saruman.

Attached: 16.png (778x1080, 1.57M)

a nigger ”civ” like everyone else playing this sad excuse of a game will. kek.

>european cultures aren't different reeee
>you can only have multicultural society with brown people reeee

What am I assuming wrong if you, yourself, admit that this is what you said, then? And also, it's not about you being "mean", but rather you making dumbass generalizations that should make you cringe when you type them. Were Europeans (again, which, europeans? when?) hostile to some non whites throughout history? Did they have contempt for them, like the Greeks towards what they called "Barbarians"? sure. Were there Europeans that, like Herodotus praised the Persian society, held other cultures in high regard, and had a cordial relationship with them? Yes. The point you have been missing for half an hour is that you can't just shove an entire fucking continent throughout fucking millenia in a single box.

Retard.

t. person who thinks you need brown skin to have multicultural society

Perfection, ship it.

It's exactly because I never said that that I'm calling you a retard, retard.

The greek defenition of barbarian is a person that cannot speak the greek language. The word barbarian doesn't have the same connotation as it has today.

Attached: 01.png (778x1080, 1.39M)

You have constantly insinuated that Europe isn't genuinely multicultural and that it needs nonwhites to be multicultural. Then you chimp out and screech "retard" when you're called out on it.

Rent free.

>severely butthurt

Seriously, I'm not insinuating, it's just you assuming retarded shit.

Didn't stop Aristotle from claiming that Hellenes were the superior race.

Oh so these aren't your posts here:
My bad!

You do know that the Greek we know from the classical times only became what they are after three big imigration waves that happened in the millenia prior. The last wave was made the Mycenaean civilization to what we know today as the different greek city states of classical antiquity.

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I really hope it's good since Civilization turned into pure shit with 6

What are you saying that in relation to?

Only just got into civ 5, what did they do with 6?

Greece were primitive cavemen until Xeres showed them what culture was.

>scale can go fuck itself

they turned it into a mobile game.

Peoplekind

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They turned it into mobile trash.

If this game has Endless legend's combat system I won't buy it.

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>Sega makes strategy games
Where the fuck is my Total War: Universe at War?

So they enlisted other tribes to fight for them. Of course they did. If some aliens with technology 1000 years more advanced than ours landed here and offered alliance with some countries and challenged others, some countries would indeed accept and join them.
So nah space marines with advanced tech is correct.

Europe was hit by plague and by bad harvests and still was not erased by external invaders.

they're making one about the Trojan War now

Civ5 was absolute shit

short answer? mobile game
long answer? Civ V was bunk as fuck at launch but gradually became good overtime. Civ VI was likewise bunk on launch but despite improving with the addition of expansions the core problems (districts, world congress, endgame, AI, etc.) were so fundamentally broken that no matter how many actually good new civs and features they added it couldn't fix the problems that were core to the game. The AI are unreasonable, wonky, and warmonger penalties restrict the player from ever taking revenge on an AI that declares war on them. The district system could have been cool but production is so much more important than every other stat coupled with the limited feasible district slots means that you build the same shit every time. The world congress is just a fucking mess and diplomatic victory is the most un-fun thing imaginable since a lot of it is locked behind participating in crises which barely ever happen. Endgame is a slog, by the time you get to the medieval era you pretty much know whether you're going to win or lose and everything afterwards is an afterthought. There are tools for civilizations that are behind to make somewhat of a comeback but the AI never properly use them. so at around turn 100 you already know who's going to win barring some massive upset that never happens. But to finalize a win if you're going for domination victory you just have to slog through attrition on the 200 AI cities that they plop down within 5 tiles of one another. Oh, and districts make it basically mandatory to play wide instead of tall, meaning every turn takes ages while you micro a zillion units and a zillion cities.

That even the Greek had been influenced by all cultures arround them and that their society is made up of different peoples that moved into the penninsula from the north at different times.

It shows promise. Basically Civilization, but with some serious cues taken from Caveman 2 Cosmos mod for Civ4 in terms of how you gradually GROW a civilization starting from baseline culture.

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Hold on, I think you going way off point here. Are you the original user? My point was that there is a plethora of native cultures within European society itself.

Climate change existed in civ 1 you monumental faggot

No I'm not the original user.

Look at this poor boy. He is blind you know.

hupeoplekind

>faggot OP
>creates another bait thread

Have an ounce of self respect, child

I'm personally confused as to why there is this big conspiracy theory cohort on Yea Forums that thinks civilization didn't exist in pre Colombian mesoemrica, it's like... why? We've known about these places for centuries, Spanish conquistadors and clergy and many others wrote about them extensively, what's the conspiracy supposed to be about?

Civ 5 with all xpacs is a worthy entry in the Civ series
with vox populi it's honestly one of the best experiences in the series

Americans like conspiracy theories.

I've skimmed through some pages about Mesoamerica stuff on wikipedia after reading your stuff and it's highly interesting. I know wikipedia isn't always accurate or up to data, so I'd like to ask you instead: Have people found out why societies there collapsed so often, sometimes without anything to replace them for hundreds of years?

Then we never disagreed on that particular point, I already told you what I found egregious. Unless you are saying that those migrations came from all around the world, and not from the balkans/mediterranean bassin. That being said, migration or not, ancient Greeks did recognize the idea of a certain "Greekness", or "brotherhood" among Greeks, I can't remember the exact word now. So not really that made up of different people as you say, at least not in identity.

Im American and this is just /pol/ tier reality denial, I just wonder where it's coming from

>Spain
>Important

It is not clear where the immigrants came from but there are historians that suggest they came from roughly the same region as the Krugans. The last one was when the mycenaean civilization dissapeared possibly the sea peoples played a role in this too. After a couple of centuries of which we know next to nothing things settled down and city states like Athens and the collection of villages of Sparta
came to be.

So deny reality to save ones own conscience?

>50 years
>9 out of every 10 people you know die of plague

Looks like they should have researched handwashing a little sooner down their tech tree.

Problem is, they literally forgot how to write for like 800 years the bronze age collapse, so we will probably never know these things for sure.

>there's an un-ironic Mesoamerican Studies student ITT
Revisionism can't save you from the reality of their situation, bluster all you like. They're primitives and always were.

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It's ok baby, you don't have to play the hard game.

more like hardly a good game

But there definitely was a huge group of people moving in from the north from outside the Balkan region. There is no way that wouldn't have changed their culture and society.

Not even that user but calling it revisionism is ridiculous, that would imply we already know everything about the past. This is clearly not the case.

Really?why would anyone do that?!!

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based retard

Literally nothing wrong with EL combat

based lobotomy victims

>another game poltards will play dumb about then seethe when it sells well

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Yes. And yes, one world is enough to get the lawyers suing (see Scrolls/Elder Scrolls shitstorm; Bejwelled and any game with Saga in the title).

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Students know nothing. That is why they are students, they still need to be taught.

Yeah, it changed it so much, the entire Minoan civilization vanished from the face of the earth lol

Didn’t they literally have the equivalent of kinds though?

But their alfabet is the basis for the one (you) are using right now.

How can Linear A be the basis for our alphabet when it's still undeciphered to this day?

>can't even have a decent thread anymore without mesoamerican autist popping up
what boards aren't you on faggot so i can avoid you

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Back to pol

Because after the first collapse of the Minoan civilization or arround the same time the Mycenaean conquered Kreta and used lineair A to create lineair B.

I guess. It's getting pretty tenuous at that point, though.

What? I'm not disagreeing with him, but he's everywhere. You can't escape him. I must've read his posts, word for word, plenty of times. Hell, I've even emailed him for more information, hoping that'd sate him, but he keeps on going.

He has all of this vast, informed knowledge on pre-Columbus civilisations, and yet he chooses to inform us, instead of taking it somewhere to be published.

people --> pee-/pol/

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>"history" of mesoamerica

Wait I meant the second and final collapse of the Minoan cities. The first one was only short and probably because of a tsunami when the island of Akrotiri partially exploded. The Mycenean civiliation used linear A before but the Minoan civilization was more sophisticated and produced far more texts. Linear B was developted after the Mycenean got to Kreta, there are similarities that's why archeologists gave them the same name. This exact thing is promoted to be one of the things that makes the game unique, leaving your mark, having influence on the collective history.

I don't give a shit about their cashgrab reskins, I want this in SupCom size:
youtube.com/watch?v=58SWsKUVoiQ

Oh yeah, the thread was about a videogame originally. That sounds like it could be cool.

Well too fucking bad, because you're getting an asset swapped Atilla TW.

>herstory of USerica

I applaud you, Mesoanon. Keep fighting the good fight.

>it's like... why?
well if they weren't low iq they wouldn't be saying stupid shit in the first place, that's why

damn.......... that's deep..................

Unironically really looking forward to this game. A fresh take on Civ is always a good thing.

Civ but without the fucking stupid memes and bullshit masquerading as historical facts sounds pretty good.

LMAO
Nig - Ger

wew back awake

If you read the desarchive links I posted whe n this first came up, I address this.

Something to keep in mind is that Spain wasn't even all that interested in widespread colonization of the American Mainland prior to Cortes's success: Spain had just come out of the reconquestia and was strapped for cash, and they didn 't really know what was there or if it was worth colonizing. His expedition's purpose was "exploration and trade", not warfare, and Cortes litterally had a force out for his arrest for Treason during parts of it once the crown caught wind of what he was doing. It was only AFTER Cortes miraclousuly managed to bring Tenochtitlan down and had the tribute influx from most Aztec controlled city-states now going to spain that their greedboner got unleashed and they commitied to pursuing mass colonization, and were even able to do so since they now had allies, a logistical base, had weakened it with smallpox, etc.

You also need to remember that Cortes arrived at JUST the right time: Shipwrecked Spainards who had intergerated into local Maya towns and had learned th language had caught wind of sighting of ships and had ran off to meet Cortes (one of them, anyways, the other was content with his life as a general and husband of the wife of the king's daughter), they narrowly missed each other and only miraculously crosse dpaths again later. The Republic of Tlaxcala was also on it's last death throes, with after decades of being whittled down by blockaded and Flower Wars, the Aztec had finally launched a real, commitied attempt at conquering them they only barely beat off and they had basiscally run out of essneital goods. Had Cortes showed up even a year or months later, they'd have already been conquered and not in a position to do anything. And the Tlaxcallans intially fought and BEAT COrtes's force despite their weakness, only sparing them on a last minute whim to try to use them as shock troops against the Aztec.

1/?

cont:

Most daminingly is that that aformentioned force out to arrive Cortes, who just arrived on the Coastline as Cortes had taken Montezuma II hostage inside Tenochtitlan, happened to have a single person who was unknowingly carried smallpox. This force actually attemepted to ally with Aztec forces to lay a trap and catch Cortes, but the plan failed and Cortes ended up capturing the leader of this force, Pánfilo de Narváez, and was able to convince them to join him rather then arrest him, and when they followed him back into Tenochtitlan is when the smallpox outbreak happened

I could go on (cortes nearly died in la noche triste, the mixteon rebellioj in West Mexico by city-states there nearly succeeded, etc), but I think i've illustrated that Spain wasn't even all that interested intially (seriously, whyu ship conquistadors across the atlantic where you had limited control over them and their ambitions; vs going off and conquering bits of north africa nearby which they already knew about and would be wasy easier?), and it was only Cortes's success that did it (and subsquently, their success from that point on which got the British, French etc jelly and interested on colionizing stuff)., and Cortes's expeidtion itself was pretty reliant on a lot of niche, cascading coidcences

Yes, Perhaps spain simply starts their colional efforts in an less densely populated area and slowly expands from there, but considering that historically it took a shit ton of coincidences aand hard fighting to even get Spain to want to bother, and after that it took having huge amounts of native cities and their armor to fight for them for decades even as the region was being ravagaed by blackl death level epidemics, I doubt it'd work that well.

I do totally agree that indirect imperialism, such as by monopolizing naval trade and access in the area, is guaranteed; but direct conquest? no way dude. Ahgain, see the links in for more info

2/?

>H-he's here so he must be wrong
Kind of a self defeating argument isn't it?

The Europeans almost got wiped out from disease, poor harvest, and invaders multiple times. They didn't because they got lucky, not because they were superior in any way.

I apologize, I've had a few people email me, but I haven't had the chance to get around to replying yet. I'm going to try to set aside some time this upcoming week, so check for a reply over the next few days.

Anyways, if you or have any better suggestions for how I can better balance particpating in threads and not being disruptive, let me know. Maybe that's what was in the email. But in like 99% of instances, this shit starts with me or somebody else making an innocuous on topic post that's not overtly obnoxious or abnormal, like , and then a ton of people reply, post incorrect information etc. It's really not my fault that "dude I totally know about history I play EUIV all the time!!!" retards go and spew incorrect BS.

Perhaps I can be a bit more selective about only reply to posts making mistakes in earnest and not shitposts, but beyond that IDK what you want out of me other then just not posting at all which I don't think is a fair thing to ask of me.

We-Wuzzing is bad because it's wrong. Their evidence is laughably bullshit and cherrypicked and it isn';t supported any even half rigerous inquiry into the subject. I posted an accurate recreation in line with 99% of other artistisc recreations of the site; of a specific city that's litterally one of the most studied archeological sites on the planet.

I can see WHY it seems like we-wuzzery if all you know about Mesoamerica is "pyramids and sacrifices dude lmao" and my posts must seem like insane revisionist horseshit, but it's not. Mexico is one of the most archeologically dense places on, there's what say, etc. I'm not posting some fringe shit here's, there's as much evidence for the stuff I post as stuff you take for granted about greece or rome.

You say that but they legit arguably had the best sanitation standards in the world at the time, they were hyper-autistic about it. Look up the free scholarly paper "PMC1805201"

>MANkind

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>this nigger is so butthurt that his "civilization" is nothing more than a bunch of savages raping each other that he decided to derail every single thread remotely linked to the matter.

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Seething

again, if you or any other user has real, meaningful suggestions for how I can balance replying to other anons (who are really the ones "derailing" threads since 99% of the time it starts with an on topic reply they just shitpost about) and giving info and not beig obonoxious i'm all ears.

But just going "hurr assmad spamming" doesn't give me real advice or input on how people would rather me post.

Ignore him. Poltards hate when their bullshit gets shut down. Only reason they complain.

>this thread

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I'd like to thank apsie mesoanon and his autistic /his/v/ crusade for eternally BTFOing all illiterate armchair pseudo-historians who don't know dick about native american history

Keep trucking buddy

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Yea Forums

You're my hero mesoanon. I've become sincerely interested in mesoamerican civilization thanks to your autistic fights with shitposters

I'm happy to hear that (check out the resources in desuarchive.org/his/thread/7102320/#7109468if you haven't akready, also feel free to email me at [email protected] with specific questions you may have, though keep oin mind it might be a while before I reply) but I do wish I could go about it in a way that's less annoying to people, since clearly some anons do find it bothersome.

again, I am seriously open to some suggestions\

I actually really dislike thgis image. It's not as if europeans can't build those structures, obviously europe is filled with thousands of pieces of grand archtecture as well, many, if I am being honest, more impressive from an engineeering perspective then almost any archtecture in the precolumbian americas.

I also don't think the problem is just hur dur racism. Some of it is just racist /pol/tards, yes, but I think the problem is moreso poor education: People are taught about the different stages of and timelines of Mesoamerican and andean history, or much about their socitiy or politics, and instead are only taught and exposed to very narrow slices of it.

It's no wonder why the Temple of kukulkan at chichen itza or teotihuacan seem "mysterious" if you don't understand the technological or social development leading up to them, like people ARE taught for Western civilization.

tl;dr I feel like the image is just making a bad faith assrtiomn

You're alright, Mesoanon.

Concerning your dislike of that image.

No shit buddy, this is Yea Forums you are supposed to be troll softly like that.

iirc he actually got backlash for mansplaining this

Seriously fuck disney for this retarded bullshit.

Hes not wrong, the UK IP laws are totally different than the US.

how so

Except it started on twitter, not Yea Forums.

I'm and I wasn't complaining about you, I like mesoamerican posting because I'm biased towards it since I quite enjoy the time settings and I find it quite interesting, and I'm also not retarded enough to think of history in the "linear progression" mindset nor am I enough of a shit eater to use the term "civilization" to only refer to what I like, the very first class any highschool anthropology student will get is on how the term "civilization" can be quite a load of shit at times. My disdain is mostly targeted at people who have the two types of mindset that I refered to or that use history as a political weapon to shit up threads because they know that's the extent of an impact they can have on any political or social landscape. My reference to Osprei posting should have clued you in on me not minding historical info dumps in vidya threads

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>how so

been a while since I read this.
but the jist is that american laws allow you to copyright pretty much anything, Uk Laws also have a comparatively miniscule timeframe for IP to become public domain.
I also think the whole "service vs. product" thing is different in europe in general. Which is why you can't remove a game from someones account over their without refunding them.

saad

based and asdaasd-pilled

I've consistently said in these threads that (for now at least), it's just a hobby since I don't know if it's smart to pursue it professionally given the shit situation the humanities are in and given my own iffy life situation

calling it revisionism is also ridiculous because like 99% of our sources are from the actual conquest period.

They Are Billions is very good at least.