Stealth game

Metal Gear is about as much a stealth game as Doom.

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What if I said I liked both? Oh wait this is Yea Forums and nobody is allowed to like two things
>In b4 HURR DURR FENCE SITTING DURR

Not a fan of steampunk. Just looks janky and blocky. Like someone was trying to make an edgier version of tf2.

>wojak poster is retarded
What a suprise.

Sure mgs 2 is literally designed like a maze and dead stops you in it's tracks for story, I think of the original trilofy it's the best. It has some fun boss fights and neat set pieces but the stealth especially on the tanker or warehouse strut F is some of the best in a video game

>hailed as the greatest stealth game of all time
>a genetically enhanced enemy with super senses, who is two feet in front of you, somehow can't see you standing upright and out in the open in a brightly lit hallway

So...this is the genius of Kojima...

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Both are good in their own right. Honestly both are some of the best stealth games ever made.

Shadow Tactics has guards that will roam around and then talk to other guards, if they fail to report to the other guard said guard will start to look for them. Also if you get spotted and raise alarms new enemies will permanently start to roam around.

Fucking retard

NARTHEENG HEARRRRR

>No arguments just personal attacks
Never change Yea Forums

4 is extra retarded because they don't notice when soldiers connected to the same network get disconnected.

MGS2 for the theme and Chaos Theory for the culture.

Dishonored isn't steampunk.

The Arkham games actually have other enemies investigate their incapacitated buddies.

What would you call it then? Retro-futuristic?

At some point stealth shifted from sneaking to a place unnoticed to killing people unnoticed.
Stealth kills kind of go out the window when the rest start noticing people are gone.

le whalepunk xDDD

In TLoU they do call outs, so sometimes it’s better to not kill anyone than to try and take them out one by one.

which sucks because killing or knocking someone out should be the last thing you do.

It's fantasy. Can't call it steampunk because machinery in it doesn't run on steam.

Is there really that big of a difference between steam and whale oil powered machinery?

Yeah, that and I guess diesel punk to a degree I guess. It really does it's own thing with the whole weirdly placed tech, the whale oil, and the magical aspects.

Yeah
Game design shifted from allowing to ghost everything to games like DeusEx HR where you kill everyone without being seen., and you do it because game outright rewards you with extra items and exp for clearing out all rooms.
I would rather return to original DX rules, but give enemies ability to call reinforcements when half of the base stopped responding in fucking futuristic setting.

EEEEEENEMEH SIGHTED

Too much work, most devs are lazy as hell

MGS2 has an absurd amount of polish to it. You will never see the same level of detail and complexity ever again in a AAA game. It will never happen.

Modern "stealth" games are just a joke in general.

Depends on the game. Stealth killing in multiplayer games is perfectly fine.

>MGS2 has an absurd amount of polish to it. You will never see the same level of detail and complexity ever again in a AAA game. It will never happen.

>take down bosses non-lethally
>they still die in the following cutscene anyway

Such attention to detail.

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I love CT but how is bank level emergent gameplay? It's just linear corridors and hide in shadows/knock out npc when back is turned like every other SC level.

Would kinda defeat the point of giving you so many action options if all of them invariably resulted in alarms don't you think?

Devs aren't lazy, resources and priorities exist. Not only that but doing that can hurt the actual flow of the game and have a lot of negative consequences as stated here

It's very little work to have the game detect the player has taken out a guard and send one to take a look.

The real answer is to make the game easy, most gamers are lazy as hell. They don't like THAT much of a challenge. Especially in stealth games.

Whale oil powered machines have internal combustion engines, for one. Now combine this with Sokolov who seems to be an expy of Tesla and his weirder tech. I would be more inclined to call it dieselpunk but I don't get why we need to slap these monikers somewhere they clearly don't fit.
It's just fantasy.

MGS4 was the same, probably the most technically stunning game ever made

The detail exists in the melting ice cubes and LCD screen breaking, flour, pans, etc

But the actual aesthetic of the game is extremely similar to steampunk, would you not agree with that point at least?

only ones that does is fatman and solidus.

>The detail exists in the melting ice cubes and LCD screen breaking, flour, pans, etc
Glad they prioritized the important stuff.

I don't think it is exactly to make the game easier. If you take out one guard and then the other guards will eventually notice then you might as well just take out everyone else too. It makes the player lean too hard to either two directions instead of letting them have different options but each one with unique consequences (you have to hide the body if you take someone out). MGS2 had a decent approach to this giving some guards radios in which they're constantly calling HQ back so you can't take those out without making the HQ suspicious but I don't think letting everyone do it would make it "hard", just tedious more than anything.

Yeah, especially the architecture and the weapons. Very dieselpunk.

How do you make a challenging and fair stealth game without relying too much on trial and error?

>replay chaos theory recently on the hardest difficulty for the first time
>breeze through it in a few hours
>its so easy it's actually somewhat unfun
Kinda broke my heart a bit. I really wish there was another game in that style but deeper. Why did they have to kill it? Why do they hate me?

The bank isn't linear, and shit changes as you progress through it/guards are added.

The guards AI and how they react to different situations makes them interesting. Granted 007 and Perfect Dark weren't far behind MGS2. MGS2 still has a really solid limb damaging system, and the fact that guards have to radio in help, can have their radios broken, and if you break their radio mid call for help they send a group to investigate is honestly awesome.

MGS3 had some real nutty shit though. Gaurds starving when you destroy their food, using their pistols when you destroy their ammo, running for food when they're hungry, reacting with fear when you toss a live snake near them, running from swarms of bees, react to out of place boxes in the jungle. Shit's nuts.

Yeah the whole game would be just slowly crawling around and waiting for guards to move out of your way or just kill everything, both of which you can totally do anyways if you want to but I prefer being able to improvise

>Gaurds starving when you destroy their food
You can also poison food to affect their AI behavior.

A lot of games manage to do that. Make the guards only notice you partially but forget about you if they can't confirm your presence so that you have to be somewhat careful while seeing which route and timing would be the best one to proceed but make actually going through that route tough since you'll have to go through areas in which if a guard spots you he will go to full alert unless you do something asap.

>If you take out one guard and then the other guards will eventually notice then you might as well just take out everyone else too.
Yeah, it's going to be less alarming to the enemy when ALL their guards disappear as opposed to just one, right?

If you think a stealth game compelling you to use stealth is making the game tedious then you just don't like stealth games. Which is kind of what I was getting out. The stealth genre has been dumbed down so people who don't like stealth games will still play them.

>stealth game has mandatory action section

It hasn't been dumbed down, you were able to take isolated guards out since the birth of the genre, MSX MGS and even most Thief missions on expert.

>game
>perfect realism is ignored for the sake of fun gameplay

God I fucking hate when devs do this shit.

Most "stealth" games are just shitty action games.

It would be less alarming because all of the guards are knocked out cold/dead so no one can do shit about it, not even the guys who were supposed to confirm their status since you also took them out.
Regarding the second part of your post:
The problem is that you think ghosting is the only approach that should be allowed in stealth games, but stealth games have always thrived in allowing you to tackle them in different ways. Sure, letting you kill everyone easily or play it like a token shooter is bad but there is also thrill to be found in killing/ko'ing everyone stealthily or rolling with the punches. As stated in previous posts things get more boring if you're forced to go full in only a couple of directions.

Play Thief 1 and then play Thief 4 and come back and tell me the stealth genre hasn't been dumbed down.

Thief 1 is filled with dungeon crawling levels that have barely anything to do with stealth.
Thief 4 is an awful game liked by no one.
Both games have plenty of instances in which they totally forgot they're stealth games.

nowadays yeah

>i want enemies to immediately hitscan headshot me as soon as my hitbox is available for them to shoot at

yes this is good game design

I don't think anyone is saying that stealth is boring but that having even something like taking just one guy out dominoing into a big consequence just isn't fun.
Most things like that are omitted because they're just too realistic in an non-enjoyable way, just like making super realistic AI which on paper sounds cool but on practice only leads to frustration.

>dungeon crawling levels
That is what a thief does in D&D
>barely anything
It still encourages stealth

That is why 2 is the best

why are they so short-sighted

Realism = good
That's what REAL games should strive for.

>That is why 2 is the best
It is if you like boring level design.

I remember reading an article a long time ago about "Thief 1" and how they were able to make the AI super-vicious and sensitive (for instance, they could see opened doors from far away or they'd have a super-efficient search pattern and even have other guards gang up to join the search) but the playtesters hated it and they had to dumb it down to make the game accessible.

>>guards always move over towards obvious chokepoints
This is totally fine if you haven't raised any alarms though.

How often in a day do you say to yourself
>Heh, yeah, I'm not going into the kitchen... that requires passing through a narrow doorway, someone hiding behind the wall on the left could grab me.

In fairness the controls of Thief 1 are dogshit. Can't even strafe.

>That is what a thief does in D&D
No one cares about D&D, we're talking about stealth games. Even if your point is right then it's totally stupid since pretty much everyone in D&D do dungeon crawling
>It still encourages stealth
It doesn't in those levels. You don't get rewarded in any particular way for hiding away or moving slowly from monsters in levels like The Lost City and The Haunted Cathedral (there's even a burrick who will get stuck in the middle of your path after a while so you gotta kill him if this happens)

that's why ghosting exists. At least have difficulty adjust AI behavior.

Can't get more boring than the worst levels in Thief 1 desu

Look at the map in the corner. You can see the blue box is technically partially behind the line for the wall. This is probably messing with hitbox detection. And the subtitles show he has been noticed and put the guard in investigation stage despite not being in the vision cone on the map so I don't know what user meant by can't see him. He's been spotted there.

In chaos theory guards will flee when they get spooked or shot but it may be more due to their erratic combat ai.

>In fairness the controls of Thief 1 are dogshit. Can't even strafe.
If you think that, you've clearly never played the game. YOu can absolutely strafe in Thief 1, you retard.

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The game generally discourages direct confrontation on enemies so its a stealth game

these are guards in a fucking FACILITY with armed guns. they are GUARDING the fucking place, not going to the kitchen to make a fucking sandwich you dumbfuck

>I don't know what user meant by can't see him. He's been spotted there.
I just looked up that video on YouTube and the reason why that guard is suspicious is because the player just shot in his direction, not because he saw him.

>walk all the way over to bodies to inspect instead of keeping a safe distance
This is needed to distinguish between knocking out and enemy or killing. Walking to an unconscious enemy allows them to wake them up and return guard count to normal.

No one is saying it isn't a stealth game, but that those levels throw most of the stealth elements out of the window or relegate it to a tertiary role. Even Thief 4 discourages direct confrontation by rewarding you more xp for going for a stealthier approach.

Ok then it seems it's more of hitbox detection fuckery. The player icon is partially behind the wall there so I would guess the game triggered the player as hidden and made all of him read as behind the wall instead of recognizing the individual parts of him sticking out. This is just me spitballing though. Old game, bad hitbox reading.

But even then you don't want to fight those monsters

>Can't get more boring than the worst levels in Thief 1 desu
The supernatural levels in Thief 1 added a lot of variety to the game, both in terms of atmosphere and gameplay, since the types of places you visited were often radically different from one another. As a horror fan, I also liked the scarier, creepier atmospheres those levels instilled.

The levels in Thief 2, on the other hand, feel relatively samey because they all take place in fortified human structures. Four missions have you break into regal mansions; three levels have you break into religious cult buildings; three missions have you break into public service buildings; two levels have you slink through the city streets. That means 12 of the game's 15 missions have a strong, similar feel to at least one other mission, though in reality even these categories feel somewhat similar to one another (a bank, a mansion, and a mechanist fortress all feel kind of similar to one another, in terms of both aesthetics and gameplay). Two of the maps are even reused for later missions, and one is recycled from Thief 1.

That leaves only a handful of truly memorable maps in the entire game. Whereas I can still vividly remember all the levels in Thief 1, like the Bonehoard crypt, the mage's towers, the opera house, Constantine's mansion, the haunted cathedral, and the ancient city.

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Why not? There's no real downside in those levels. Most of them die easily, their AI isn't as nuanced or clear with their alert statuses as human AI and even sometimes it's almost impossible to hide from them and taking them out is way quicker and requires less effort (not all missions in Thief 1 can be ghosted and some require exploits). Sure, in some levels you don't wanna wake up zombies due to the limited amount of resources to kill them but in Down in the Bonehard there are plenty of enemies placed in a way in which they're pretty much there for a fight instead of being in a pattern that encourages you to avoid them.
At this point we're going in circles but my main point is that stealth games have pretty much always since the begging let you take out some foes without having a huge consequence happen.

>Why not? There's no real downside in those levels. Most of them die easily
Zombies require holy water and water arrows to destroy, which are highly limited resources.

You didn't even finish reading my post right? I mention those cases in my post.

I agree. Thief 1 had better atmosphere, Thief 2 better level design from a gameplay standpoint but a lot of levels felt redundant.
A stealth game also needs pacing and variety, Thief 1 fared better in this regard compared to 2.

>Thief 2 better level design from a gameplay standpoint
It doesn't. The only improvement is removal of zombies. But the actual level design in terms of how it relates to creating interesting scenarios for player movement and remaining undetected is worse.

That's still pretty dumb. if a guy is knocked out there's a reason, and probably a danger to yourself. That's like running out to grab the guy that got shot in the leg by the sniper. Don't do it man.

>That's like running out to grab the guy that got shot in the leg by the sniper.
Not the same. The guard inspecting the body doesn't know how long its been there.

Achtually, they could be pretty sure it was only as long as the last check-in so the hazard is probably still close by.

I dunno, I don't think most levels were as bad as the lowest points of the first game. Overall I feel that they give you a better chance at playing stealthily more often but I might be remembering poorly some levels since the last time I played all of them was in 2015.

>I dunno, I don't think most levels were as bad as the lowest points of the first game.
What do you think were the lowest points of the original game? Nothing in the first game goes as low as having the exact same level reused back-to-back in Thief 2.

Not only does Thief 1 have more variety, but the levels are more open-ended and allow for a wider variety of approaches. You can do far less with rope arrows in Thief 2 than you can in Thief 1.

It's incredibly stupid that every Thief 1 vs Thief 2 discussion revolves around the same 'muh zombies' strawman instead of actually discussing the differences in level design between the two.

Better to avoid to not deal with shit combat

Thieves Guild: Too long and convoluted, doesn't have a lot of variety.
The Mages Tower: Similar issue as with the case above. Getting spotted also lead to enemies that aren't too dangerous since their attack are slower than an archer's and can be avoided easily at any distance.
Those were the levels that I enjoyed the least. A lot of areas in Down in the Bonehard and Lost City also felt pretty boring since they had very little stealth (non human creatures are way more volatile with their AI and their "barks" are less clear) and fighting the enemies is never enjoyable in thief.

I haven't played thief since 2011 or something. Anyone got any decent guide on which mods are needed to play it decently on a modern PC?

MGS1 is an action game with optional stealth

Are you actually that retarded?

>Thieves Guild
>The Mages Tower
Both of those were only added in gold, and absent from the original game.

I know, most missions in Gold are very rough around the edges but I still point out some grievances I have with missions that were on TDP since day 1.

Because they hate them to begin with.

>Not only does Thief 1 have more variety, but the levels are more open-ended and allow for a wider variety of approaches. You can do far less with rope arrows in Thief 2 than you can in Thief 1.
I feel as if the mere existence of just Shipping and Receiving, Party and the Bank cast a lot of doubt on this statement, were these two levels gigantic and full of different paths, exits and entries?

Thief 2 is praised by the community for being a more purer "thief" simulation. More so, levels like Framed were so incredibly polished I struggle to really see how the first game approaches 2.

>I feel as if the mere existence of just Shipping and Receiving, Party and the Bank cast a lot of doubt on this statement, were these two levels gigantic and full of different paths, exits and entries?
Not especially. Party is a good example. Despite literally taking place on the rooftops, you're still railroaded along a rather linear route through specific houses.

based civvie retard

I feel as if Shipping and Bank are the best examples of Thief 2's non linearity and open ended design, and Party being the weakest of what I listed due to it's more linear introduction along the rooftops which I predicted, but still affords the player a lot of freedom even as it limits your freedom and it's full of neat hidden areas and unique complete optional puzzles and world building, not even considering the tower itself. Blackmail is also a great example, and Eavesdropping is certainly large and non linear as well.

that's the thing about Thief 2, each level feels more realistic, more well designed and more polished generally. it's praised for the fact you are basically a thief sneaking into big places and robbing the place, and the places generally feel real which is it's strength.

Just download TFix and that's it. Disable any hd texture packs etc. if you want the classic experience.

It's ironic that 'hardcore' Thief and Splinter Cell fans consider MGS a 'movie' despite it having far greater difficulty and complexity than every other stealth games.

It's pathetic that you actually, unironically believe this.