Ultimate players are okay with banning all of the items for being too RNG and unfit for competitive play

>items
There are items that are guaranteed kills just for picking them up. All you have to do is press a button.
>meter
There are smash attacks that are guaranteed kills just for getting them. All you have to do is press a button.
>stages
Tournaments aren't fun to watch unless people are actually fighting each other. Some stages get in the way of this. Rather than pick and choose, might as well use a standard stage.
>Can't ban
Honestly can't understand what you were saying in this one. Hero is far from being as random as people complain though. I've been using him a ton and it takes about 50 hits for me to finally get a critical, so this 1/8 thing is absolute bullshit which is retarded when we are dealing with an iteration of the game where you are designed to die after 3 hits from anyone anyway. Thwack and Whack also have very low rates at low damage. Those are the only 2 moves that can OHKO you though so I don't know what these "6 moves" is that you might have mentioned.

I wasn't even referring to thwack

Garbage game, play a real fighting game.

>Remove all of the elements of the game that make it interesting and were built into how it should be played
What game are you talking about user? This is a Smash thread.

sorry everyone i just farted

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>Tournaments aren't fun to watch unless people are actually fighting each other. Some stages get in the way of this

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Characters, stages, items, etc.

>hey guys, this slight incline doesn't negatively impact a single move of mine while negatively impacting 80% of your move pool
>man you are such a faggot for not letting me have my god damn advantages...

>hey guys lets ban literally every single stage except for the giant, flat ones with massive blast zones
>man the slow, heavy characters in the game get no results in tournaments, how could that happen? Why does Nintendo always make them so shit!?

>battlefield
>giant
>flat
Is English like a 14th language for you or something?

>haha bro just play around hero's potential to remove your stock instantly due to RNG
>WHAT THE FUCK WHAT DO YOU MEAN "JUST ADAPT TO THE SLIGHT NUANCE OF THE COUNTERPICK STAGE" THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!"

>Items
Learn to dodge
>meter
Again learn to dodge
>stages
If they were as professional ad they pretend to be this would be a nonissue

Both players get a queen in chess you mouthbreathing retard.

Both players are allowed to choose Hero.

I don't think you can dodge Peach's final smash, meter is explicitly a mechanic just for fucking around which is why you have to turn it on.

Yeah, some FS's are still monstrous even after they made most of them single hit into multi-hit moves, and some are absolutely terrible as well.

>learn to dodge
I did learn to dodge things that are NOT dodgeable. It is called turning them off.

>If they were as professional
If 2 people are equally skilled, a huge handicap like specific stages makes an insurmountable difference. Competitions aren't about giving one person an advantage and telling another person he needs to overcome that. This is a single player game mindset. Competitions are about having things as fair as possible, then letting people duke it out against each other based on their skill. If you don't want things to be as fair as possible, just watch random matches in a multiplayer game.

>some are absolutely terrible as well
Fuck, ignore the fact that some of them have small and specific hit boxes, like hero's, but you also have some that can kill the user if they use it aggressively and fail.

There is no valid reason to ban Hero, so therefor he is not banned and never will be outside of a shitty local in Australia.

>If 2 people are equally skilled, a huge handicap like specific stages makes an insurmountable difference
The point of counterpicks are literally to give the player who lost the first game an advantage in the second one.

>Competitions aren't about giving one person an advantage and telling another person he needs to overcome that.
That's basically the philosophy when it comes to defending Hero. "Sure, RNG and randomness are inherently ingrained into his playstyle but you just simply have to respect the fact that his moves can sometimes just randomly kill you at low percentages.

>Competitions are about having things as fair as possible, then letting people duke it out against each other based on their skill. If you don't want things to be as fair as possible, just watch random matches in a multiplayer game.
See above point. Hero isn't designed around pure skill and comparing his entire kit to a single move G&W and Peach have is a false equivalency.

RNG havily favors G&W actually since everything but a 1 and maybe a 7 is in some way beneficial to him
Same for Peach
Hero's RNG meanwhile can actively harm him

>comparing his entire kit
We aren't though, we're comparing a single move (the menu) to a single move of G&W and Peach (Judgement and Turnip)
When you do you realize the menu is far more balanced as the other two moves are not only more likely to go your way but more powerful when they don't go your way. Peach's in particular is still one of the best projectiles in the game even at its "worst" result

>comparing his entire kit to a single move G&W and Peach have is a false equivalency

It's not, as soon as you present your argument as "RNG is antithetical to skill and cause for a ban" then Peach and G&W are called into question. In order to distinguish Peach and G&W from Hero you must come up with some way of measuring RNG that is in line with the reasoning RNG is said to be antithetical to skill, and there's no way to do that that doesn't resort to extreme levels of special pleading or oversimplification..

Smash community is retarded as fuck, what's your point? Really it's nothing new

Moral of the story: Git Gud you fucking Scrub-ass cunts

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>There is no valid reason to ban Hero

Language barrier on Down B makes Hero decidedly uncompetitve in major tournaments.

>We aren't though, we're comparing a single move (the menu)
Uhhh did you not get the memo that he also has critical hits that are active on frame 6?

The difference being it's a hugely prominent part of Hero's kit. G&W doesn't rely on Judgement because it's far too slow and unreliable to use in neutral and Peach's item shit, while bullshit, is so rare that it's hardly not nearly as much of an issue. Not saying they're good mechanics for a competitive game but there's always been stupid shit in Smash that can tilt the game's favor via RNG. Another example would be dying while your opponent is in a star KO animation and losing where you would've won the game had they just died instantly.

>Hero's frame 6 1/10 OHKO
Thwack has a 1% chance to kill up to 20%. At 20% Judgement kills most anyone. Quit bitching.

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G&W doesn't need to use Judge in neutral, it true combos out of a throw at low percents.

Nope. Simply make an easy tournament ruling stating that tournament sets will be played in the language the TO sets the console to, thus solving any language changing disputes

Have you ever heard of the concept of a "counterpick", user?

1% chance means 1 in 100 people will, in theory, be killed at 0 by thwack.
Evo had 3,500. 35 total 0% kills. Seems like the kind of thing that would get banned. Math works both ways friend.

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>Nope.
Brain damage.

>Uhhh did you not get the memo that he also has critical hits that are active on frame 6?
Oh you mean on his mediocre smash attacks which are barely as strong as Ike's when they crit which only happens 10% of the time and are almost never a reliable kill move?

That's before you calculate the actual odds of it appearing, the odds of being in a position where you can hit with it, and the odds of the opponent not just dodging it.

>The point of counterpicks...
... is something that is anti-competitive in nature. There is a reason it isn't done in very many competitive activities. The only time it should be done is when someone is objectively better than everyone else thus making it where there is no reason for a competition to be held. Counterpicks for characters is about as far as this should go though. What are you gonna do next? Tell good players that they have to start their matches with 1 life?

>philosophy when defending Hero
If that is true for most people then they are idiotic. We already have an unbalanced roster and Hero doesn't even come close to being at the top of the list for being unbalanced. That is the main defense for Hero. His RNG is a non-existent problem in the grand scheme of characters. As someone who has put in hundreds of hours with him, along with other characters, his RNG criticals and insta-kills are blown out of proportion so badly that this just seems like a petty joke at this point for people who just hate him for no good reason. I get more physical attacks in than anything else with the character. I can count on 1, maybe 2 hands how many criticals I will get in 4 hours worth of playing. I can probably count on 1 hand how many insta-kills I've gotten from Thwack and Whack from 0 to 20 damage. In fact, they feel so memorable to me DUE to how rare they are. Also, I can count how many insta-kills have been successfully used against me with 2 fingers in the whole time that Hero has been out. In fact, once I see that list pop up on hero, it is almost a guaranteed free hit for me.

>Hero isn't designed around pure skill
It takes pure skill for him to be any threat. He isn't different than any other character in this regard.

I accept your concession.

Except G&W's judgement would kill with a 9, which has a 1/8, or a 12.5% of appearing.

Using your same numbers, 3,500 entrants would lead to 437 kills using G&W 9's. More than 10 times the amount of kills from a Thwack. Again, quit bitching.

>argument always boils down to "just don't get hit"
just don't get hit by the items bro

But we just finished explaining that 9 doesn't kill at 0.
Or did you forget that part since it doesn't suit your argument?

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...

Evo had 3500 Hero games? That seems like a lot

Isn’t this a pointless distinction? Rng is rng and frankly nobody is going to be shooting for judge without the base throw damage.

>... is something that is anti-competitive in nature
Not really because the first game usually has the players blind pick (waiting for your opponent to pick a character and then counterpicking game one is usually seen as scummy and the player can request a blind pick via third party if they are anal about it)

The second game being a counterpick character and stage for the loser of the first is designed to test the winning player to see if they can still beat the other in an advantaged state.

>Language barrier on Down B
There is no language barrier. I am shit at languages and can't learn anything outside of English. I can use Hero's down B in any language though. If I see the word "Goose" as a menu command, select it, and Thwack is cast, and I do that 10 times with the same outcome, I will learn that Goose causes Thwack. We aren't learning a whole language here, you just have to learn a few items before the tourney starts and be done with it. Hell, I can use any command in Disgaea 5 within about a second of opening the menu and I can't interpret moon to save my life.

Oh yeah, this. You have a 20% chance of getting one of the OHKO spells, before you even begin to calculate OHKO odds. So the odds of Thwack killing should have an extra 0.2 multiplied by the percentage, unless you are at such a percent that Thwack is guaranteed to kill, which is a percent that you'd die from most anything else in Hero's kit anyway.

Thwack has a 1% kill chance up until 21%, where it begins to scale up. Meaning the comparison is accurate up to the victim being at 20%. Are you saying a 9 hammer won't OHKO at 20%?

the blast zones on battlefield are so fucking massive that it fucks over Heavies the worst

>Are you saying a 9 hammer won't OHKO at 20%?
Well yes, considering you're hitting the 9 at 20% and not 0%. But lets ignore that little blunder.
>Meaning the comparison is accurate up to the victim being at 20%
Well it's too bad we weren't talking about the victim being at 20% then. We were talking about the 1% chance of an OHKO. Which G&W does not have any chance of without being right on the ledge.

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>test the winning player to see if they can still beat the other in an advantaged state
This is why it is anti-competitive. A competition is a test to see who is better. Giving an advantage to a person is literally the opposite of that. You are no longer testing 2 people's skills to see who is better, but are now testing a single person to see if they can overcome an obstacle. I mean, this is still something interesting to see none the less, but it is anti-competitive.

The point is that it is no longer rewarding skill, therefore it's noncompetitive; the logic here is valid.

>This is why it is anti-competitive
That's literally why it is because the first game had the potential to just have been one player blind pick countering the other and Smash is more counterpick-oriented than any other Smash game to date.

>no longer rewarding skill
How so? For down b to be any REAL threat, I have to pick my move instead of just pressing the first one to come up. I then have to use the right move at the right time. Having Hero as an opponent, I know how to approach him if he is picking blindly. If he isn't though, I am glancing at his menu and approaching him more aggressively than I would blindly. Seeing which move he has in his 1 slot, then what he has available tends to create opportunities for ways to attack. If my opponent leans towards Thwack or Whack, it might as well be a free kill for me.

Funny enough though, Kaboom is probably the most dangerous move in the down B list and I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned a single time. Instead everyone complains about the shit that is free kills for me, or the critical hits that are RARE AS FUCK. I mean shit, Ultimate isn't a game that lets you survive very many hits compared to previous titles anyway so good chance that critical hit would have probably killed you as a regular hit anyway. All it really is at this point is a trigger to piss off retarded people.

How is that even remotely comparable to items? Items are horseshit because of how they spawn, not because of the actual effects.

>Well it's too bad we weren't talking about the victim being at 20% then.
Except I was, see And considering that Down B doesn't guarantee the spell, it isn't a 1% chance to OHKO; it's a 20% chance to get the spell, and then a 1% chance to OHKO. Those two events happening comes out to a 0.2% chance. Applied to 3,500, that's now 7.

>Which G&W does not have any chance of without being right on the ledge.
In other words, G&W can OHKO at 0% under certain circumstances, same as Hero.

This, Thwack and Whack aren't that good compared to his other down-b moves, and the only time Thwack has a chance to hit is when the opponent is on the ledge, whack will miss everytime unless you caught the opponent off guard.
While i agree that Kaboom is one of the strongest move Hero has, the truly RNG move is Magic Burst.

>Giving an advantage to a person is literally the opposite of that.
You can ban literally everything in the game by this logic.
>Pichu hitbox is to small, ban him
>Simon reach is to long, ban him
>Link is too spamy, ban him.
All the way to Melee tourneyfag autism where only Fox is legal and only two or three stages are legal.

Right, Smash has been designed to be anti-competitive. Sakurai has made this clear. By playing Smash in a tournament, we are trying to take something anti-competitive and turn it into a competition. As foolhardy as that is, the last thing you want to do is tack on as many anti-competitive traits as you can. Blind picks, no items, no smash, battlefield is the most competitive the game can get without just limiting the game to a single character.

>how it should be played
Casual retards everyone

Oh, I see. So you're comparing Hero's Thwack UP TO 20%, to G&W 9 AT 20%. So your comparison was rigged from the start. I apologize, I assumed you had the intelligence to compare apples to apples, that was clearly my mistake for expecting so much of you. Sorry to take up your time.

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>HEROES MAD

>HEROES MAD

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>Right, Smash has been designed to be anti-competitive. Sakurai has made this clear
Sakurai never said this.

>being this dense
You need to be able to read your opponents Menu to react to what Hero is doing. You potentially need to memorize the same menu in a different language in order to counter play Hero, and Hero is the only character this applies to. Therefore its noncompetitive.

>Magic Burst
I'd have to do some testing, but Kaboom seems to kill at a similar damage. Magic burst is big, can catch multiple people, but that is about it. It comes out slow as fuck, and will leave you with 0 damage, even if you are knocked out of it which is easy to do. If someone is close enough to get trapped in it, they are close enough to knock you out of it before it activates. Kaboom, on the other hand, comes out instantly, has a decent blast radius, and even sucks your ass in. Plus, if you don't get a kill, you still have enough MP left to cast every other skill available.

I don't understand why spirits don't have a larger comp scene on their own. All the issues people have with the roster can be somewhat mitigated. Spirits can adjust speed, weight, jump height, etc. If you hate ness or some shit, slap some psi resist spirit. Other spirits could even reward skillful play like perfect shields reflects projectiles or heals.

>Hero only banned in a completely irrelevant part of a completely irrelevant nation
Ok

>You can ban literally everything in the game by this logic
Right. The game wasn't designed to be balanced. So at this point you have to choose what level of competition you want. Allowing all characters while dismissing all other randomness is the best way to keep some form of competitive nature while still keeping it entertaining and worth playing.

I guarantee you more people go 0%'d at Evo than that. You can be combo'd from 0% to death by some of the faster characters, especially if you are playing one of the slower ones.

>Right, Smash has been designed to be anti-competitive
>Adds For Glory mode in Smash 4 and BF mode for stages
>Adds Elite Smash in Ultimate, balances the game around elite smash statistics, adds battlefield mode, adds the ability to turn off stage hazards
>Doesn't also want to cater to competitive players
Sakurai hasn't had a hateboner for tourneyfags for a while now buddy

>Sakurai never said this
Except he has... This isn't a hard google search user.

>So you're comparing Hero's Thwack UP TO 20%, to G&W 9 AT 20%
You can compare them at 0 if you like. You already stated that G&W 9 can kill at 0.

>DUDE language lmao
If you're determined enough to travel halfway across the world, which, in of itself, is time consuming, have at least a base-level knowledge of what people are saying to you, and do a series of mentally-taxing battles for possibly days on end, then you can take the literal day it takes to learn 20 phrases in English or Japanese, which are the only places where International S-Tier Supermajors take place
I can't believe people are spouting this ass-backwards assumption that the people TRAVELLING to another COUNTRY wouldn't at least understand how the language functioned in some capacity

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The problem is R*ddit and other areas of the web are NPCs following their twitter gods who have declared they don't like Hero and see this as fuel to get the character banned preemptively.

That's true, I'm sure there are entire montage's of 0 to death combo's you can find on Youtube and Twitter for days.

But they're combo's. Multiple consecutive attacks that take more skill and way more practice than pressing a button and rolling a d100.

Kaboom and Magic Burst are good in different situations.
Kaboom is useful more in neutral game, which is 70%+ of the game, but is harder to use when your opponent is near to you.
Meanwhile Magic Burst covers all ledge options and can kill characters very, very soon, and even if it doesn't kill 55+% damage is when full MP is a very fair trade.

JUST SHIELD IT BRO
>proceeds to break your shield with flame slash, a frame 6 move

Only on the ledge. Thwack can kill anywhere, at any time, without any positioning requirement and a hitbox 5 times its size, at 6 frames.
See what happens when you compare the two at face value without any handicaps?

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Jesus Christ can people stop this stupid "hoes mad" twitter meme?
>inb4 looks like a hoe is mad X DEEE

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Same reason Customs never took off competitively in 4.

Grinding.

Its easy enough to just ban uncompetitive spirits or customs, but it takes a long fucking time to get them. Every console at any tournament would also have to have all the same spirits or customs unlocked as well, which is just unfeasible when we're looking at ~30+ switches all at once.

Characters are MUCH easier and quicker to unlock, and can be done in a few hours. Spirits / customs can require several days, and even then you're still not guaranteed to have them all.

If they were all available right away then we could argue how they may help certain characters more or foster different play styles more to the point that it stales the metagame worse, but that arguments moot when the fucking things just aren't available.

>6 frame

I love this meme. You can't even pick something from the menu until frame 20 or something like that and Thwack has 20 startup on top of that.

Thwack is 20+ frames, i think whack is the one that have 6 frames.

Burden of proof is on you if you're going to say things that aren't true.

>without any positioning requirment
not him, but that isn't true at all. just because it's big doesn't mean you won't have to play around how your opponent might react
also It comes out on frame 20 you mong, and thats on top of a frame 20 menu and however many frames it takes to get to if its not on top

>You potentially need to memorize the same menu
For countering, you only need to pick up a few key moves. A lot of moves can be approached similarly. If they couldn't, I wouldn't be trying to make this argument to begin with. The problem here is you think it is a chore to learn the menu to be able to play against him. No, what you are doing is giving yourself an advantage against him. You reading his available moves is more detrimental to him then him having those moves unless he plays like an absolute pro. If anything, Hero has the disadvantage for shit like this.

Also, in every competition out there, you will always study the people you think you will lose against and ignore the ones you don't have time to study. This isn't something new Hero brings to the table.

At the end of the day it will only make the gap between tiers higher. For every low tier that will benefit from it, you can bet your ass the higher tiers will benefit it more.
Also it takes too long to unlock them all.

Based. Dbfzchads where we at?
youtu.be/PBunBjqul1w

When each system at a tourney has to provide the same tools for every player to work with, but the tools are locked behind a gacha system, you can imagine those specific tools aren't going to be allowed.

Not important to me. I don't care either way, I don't go to smash tourneys. Just pointing out that the number of people that died from 0% was probably not 0.

Honestly, banning Hero would be pointless. The character has been in a few tournaments now, but hasn't been able to win a single large one, and honestly gets completely destroyed when faced by any competent player. The only thing you ban when you ban hero is the great highlights for people who watch Smash vods. Until a Hero wins a grand final in a large Smash tourney, I won't see him as anything but F tier, he is in the trash next to Krool and Kirby.

...

>6 frames
after he picks it off the menu, which you can read too assuming you aren't an illiterate sandnigger with obsolete russian military surplus.

still a false equivalence. You don't choose your pieces in chess. both players have all of them at once and all serve a purpose. Hero negates the viability of almost 80% of the roster.

I'll admit I may have slipped up here. Hero has too much jank to remember all of the frame data for each move, especially when multiple of them have a different move with a similar name.
Note however that it's still a chance to kill anywhere on stage with a hitbox the size of an elephant while G&W need's a normal hitbox on the edge of the stage.

>>Uhhh did you not get the memo that he also has critical hits that are active on frame 6?
>ultimateframedata.com/hero.php
You are a lying niggerfaggot and you know it, His FASTEST smash attack (which are his ONLY attacks that are able to crit) activates on frame 9 (13 if you are not in the air) and acts like a STRAIGHT FUCKING LINE which makes it really hard to hit a moving target with. Stop spreading lies and ignoring the fact that RNG is RNG no matter how you fucking spin it. If you want to ban one character for it you'll have to ban ALL characters that have it.

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>but is harder to use when your opponent is near you
I just explained why this is the opposite of being true. It comes out instantly so it is much better for close range than Magic Burst. Magic Burst at close range is just asking for your opponent to get a free hit while reducing you to 0 MP, which you might need to recover from that free hit.

>55+% damage is a very fair trade
You just limited your moveset to half for a character that is magic reliant and now you don't have any means to recover from an attack. For scrubs it is a fair trade, but for competitive play this is a VERY risky situation with a low chance of having any real payout. This move is VERY situational on when you want to use it.

>Not knowing the difference between Whack and Thwack
>Not knowing that menu pull, by itself, is 20 frames, meaning the earliest Whack can hit is frame 26, while Judge hits frame 16

>See what happens when you compare the two at face value without any handicaps?
Yeah, you see that Judge is much better.

>proceeds to break your shield with flame slash
What are you doing that flame slash is breaking your shield?

Thwack hitbox comes frame 23 and last 10 frames , Whack comes at frame 6.

Most pros seem to be against banning Hero.

Based. Dbfzchads where we at?
youtu.be/PBunBjqul1w

Maybe if this was a legitimate discussion with someone who actually cared about getting to the truth, but we both know that isn't the case. The fact that you haven't googled this and found it already is all the evidence I need to know what type of user you are and that is the type that will just have me running in circles when there is no need to. I see your game and decline playing it. Go shitpost elsewhere.

>The tranny replies
Lmfao

Inclines aren’t balanced properly. Try using Ridley’s fireballs on an incline and tell me its balanced

I didn't really consider all those problems at first. I just really get tired of seeing the same posts of people begging for buffs and nerfs. I just thought that it might be better alternative. One can dream.

no-one here even plays smash competitively why are you manchildren fighting each other over how other people choose to play their video games

9 doesn’t insta-KO and in fact, doesn’t KO at 0 unless you’re either extremely close to blast zone or absurdly light.

Also the Menu isn’t the issue, the Crits are. Imagine if sometimes Ike could just KO you with half of his standard toolset from way earlier. No counterplay before or after the fact.

Ike might see play?

So he never said this and you're just saying "look at the evidence" when the "evidence" has pointed entirely to the contrary in every release after Brawl. Why would he make so many concessions to competitive play styles in Smash 4 and Ultimate, hold tournaments and now he's even downright congratulating the evo champions and holding itemeless 1v1 tournament invitationals if he strictly wanted the game to only be casual? Anway here's your (you), covet it.

>Meleefag takes the moral high ground
Go back to banning a mechanic in a character that never even comes close to winning anything and installing a ledge grab limit for one fucking guy. Maybe that will save your dying game

(You)

Well at least you improved to low tier trolling instead of being pure shitposting. I might have actually tried replying if you hadn't started with shitposting.

Imagine if a street fighter v tournament banned hadoukens, supers or ultra moves because they “break the game” and was footsies only, or maybe ban the grappler characters?
Do smash retards have any idea how much of a joke they are?

Woah... it's almost like counterpick stages are intended to give some characters an advantage or disadvantage others...

*bans wario ware*
heh....
nothin person

Judge can't even be used in the same situations as Thwack or Whack, that alone makes the two moves better by default.

Do you have a single source to back that up? Most notable pro players don't really give a shit either way.

I'm not even trolling you're being a dumb faggot acting like Sakurai still has the same contempt for anything beyond casual play that he did when he was developing Brawl. It's been 11 years user. Things have changed.

>I'm not even trolling
Slipping back into shitposting territory there. Leave this part out next time to improve your trolling effort. Also, could stand to use a few more sentences to make it seem like you are actually invested in a conversation.

imagine if street fighter VI added items that could take an entire meter by themselves and spawned randomly, or had stages that could do the same

Nothing to do with RNG you brain-dead faggot.

People probably shouldnt play that game competitively

Hero isn't like items
Deal with the rng you faggot, how do you think guilty gear/BlazBlue players do it

not that user but you are in the wrong here, not providing evidence is like talking out of your ass.

>not that user
And there it is... Back into everyday shitposting you go...

>you are in the wrong here
>for not spoonfeeding an easy as fuck google search
Fuck how many years has it been since your dumbassery was frowned upon on Yea Forums? Damn I miss the good ol' days

Yes it can, the only two differences is that thwack is a ranged attack and both thwack and whack only has a 35% chance to kill at best (60%+ dmg). Judgement kills 100% of the time at those % and is faster than any of Heros menu moves.

>Worthless fag trying to spin sakurai's word into his own
Sakurai never intended the game to be as competitive and restrictive as it is but to say sakurai intentionally designed the game to be anti competitive is just retarded. It's a fighting game, if he wanted to make it anti competitive there wouldn't even be an option to play without items.

twitter.com/PuppehSSB/status/1162393037345103873
Grand Finals.
Both players on last stock, both at 0%.
Thwack kills.
Game over.
>implying this is fair
This could have gone any which way if not for the random element. Hero needs to be banned not because he's OP but because he has TOO MANY random elements.
>inb4 muh G&W muh Peach
They each have one random move that MIGHT be really good. Hero has a randomized list of moves, some of which MIGHT be really good, some of which MIGHT close the stock from 0%. This isn't even including crits.

Smash developers cared about competitive since Smash 4, because since then, they bothered to patch the game, and that there's an for glory.
Smash can be played however you want, it is competitive when you want it to be competitive, if that wasn't the case we wouldn't have the choice to turn off items or limit stage selection.

>Grand finals
>Of a literally who tournament
>With a Hero mirror
Yeah, not convincing anyone.
Next.

Peach RNG is so uncommon it literally doesn't matter for her, G&W does benefit from his side b though.

That's why it should be banned NOW instead of LATER, so that this bullshit won't happen in an actually important setting, retard.
Yes and yes. But G&W has one RNG move that has a 1 in 9 chance to kill at 0%, whereas Hero has a purely (as far as we know) random chance to kill you at 35% with any of his Smash attacks and a possible move that has a purely random chance to kill at 0% (and the chance only increases at the enemy has more percent).

You say this as if the "neutral" stages don't have massive blastzones and by nature being a disadvsntage state for heavies, there are no neutral stages, why favor only a select group of characters? The only solution is variety and counterpicking.

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>Smash developers cared about competitive
>GSP locked behind a mode that pairs you up with people using random ass rules
>tournaments introduced but focus on anti-competitive modes
>"balance" updates nurf bad characters such as Robin and buff characters that were once OP such as Diddy Kong
Just a start of the list of items that show either a lack in intelligence in developing competitive modes, or a blatant attempt at making the game anti-competitive. You pick.

Naw, that's trash logic. It won't happen in an important setting, because no one in an important setting is playing Hero in a grand finals.

>don't have massive blastzones
What blastzones are you referring to?
>heavies
I use Bowser, DK, and Ganondorf on a normal basis and play on Battlefield to make sure the map is neutral. What am I missing?

>Believing this
Man I would love to be this stupid so I didn't have to carry on the burden of logic.

The first tournament was 1v1 no items 2 stocks.

>Believing this
What is there to believe user? Nothing stated was an opinion or a belief. Everything listed is a cold hard undeniable fact. Please feel free to elaborate.

>2 stock
>competitive
Yeah, no...

they sponsored tournaments, sakurai congratulates people when they win on important tournaments.
I agree that Elite smash is trash but the competitive scene is alive and well.

>2 stock
>2 mins 30 seconds long
>competitive
>FD / omega only
lol no

Compared to getting stuck with 4 player free for all with items and smash balls, it was the most competitive we've seen Nintendo be.

>You can't force your change your settings to only give you 1v1
>There arn't 1V1 tourneys online
>One weird nerf out of the sea of good buffs and deserved nerfs to every character
Think before you type

but it's still not actually competitive. it was effectively For Glory but only available for a limited time. And most online tourneys still have items.

>Implying it's anti competitive
Use your brains

Banjo will be instantly banned if his collecting ammo theory is true because it forces “distracting” items on screen.

>they put on a good face to make Nintendo look good rather than being blatant about their true nature out in public
Yes, this is totally shocking user. I would totally expect him to rather go up to tournaments and piss on them on live recordings.

Do these people refuse to play with others outside of tournaments unless they follow tournament rules? I’ve heard of Smogon folk doing that.

they did that on the melee/brawl era, wanted to cancel the EVO stream for melee.

>One weird nerf out of the sea of good buffs and deserved nerfs to every character
user, you can't actually be serious. Statistically, most of the updates have been nurfs, and to top that off, those nurfs rarely include top characters. Also, those top characters have a tendency to get buffs just as much as they get nurfs. Maybe I'll make a chart to showcase this before the next time I see this bullshit comment come up.

Yes? What’s wrong with that? Do you play Chess with people who randomly decide to change the rules?

>You can't force your change your settings to only give you 1v1
You can and will still get fucked by the Preferred Rule system sooner or later, user.
>There aren't 1V1 tourneys online
2 minutes and 30 seconds long, 2 stocks only, omega stages only. Not exactly competitive if you ask me. Most online tourneys are still with items on anyway.
>One weird nerf out of the sea of good buffs and deserved nerfs to every character
>"sea of good buffs and deserved nerfs "
>Inkling practically untouched
>Olimar BUFFED in most recent patch
>all they did to Pichu was make self damage stronger
>Ridley still scraping the bottom if mid at best after the buffs
>the Street Fighters are now sort of viable thanks to one (1) jab kill combo and different projectile properties
Yeah nah. Personally I don't think they're "anti-competitive" but you're fooling yourself if you think they're going out of their way to support the competitive scene.

>Items
Would be more balanced if there was a sense of control over them, but theyre random as fuck

>Super Meter
Final Smashes are completely unbalanced, like 90% of them are just damage, 5% are an instant kill from 0%, and the rest are useless

>Stupid reason like a slight incline
Wouldn't be an issue if projectiles didn't become nullified from inclines

>Comparing all of this to a character who's killing moves are 26 frames at the earliest

Yeah keep saying Flame Slash is frame 6, its not gonna be true when Command Menu has 20 frames of startup for the first fucking slot

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>for extremely stupid reasons such as having mild inclines
Care to explain which stages you're referring to? Because Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story, and Lylatt Cruise are available in 90% if tournaments as counterpick options.

>Wouldn't be an issue if projectiles didn't become nullified from inclines
I fucking hate Lylat for this reason. Can't shoot a projectile from the ledge without it disappearing into the void because of a 5 degree angle. Fuck.

Name one competitive sport or activity that focuses on reducing the amount of time you have to compete. Bowling lasts 10 frames. Baseball has 9 innings. The list goes on. When an activity involves feeling out your opponent, that activity has to last long enough for you to actually learn something about them. Out of all the rules given to us, which they can easily add new rules, 3 stock is the closest thing we have to a competitive match. Not to mention the 2 and a half minutes...

>inclines nullify projectiles
i fail to see anything bad about this

Fuck you. Samus is meh enough as is, do you really need to take her only ranged kill move too?

user, do you know what capitalism is? What you just told me is that they showed their true colors in the past. The response to this was that their fans got upset with them. Upset fans means upset sales. To fix sales, they pretend to change into something that their fans want by giving out meaningless "support" to the competitive scene, all while letting their true feelings bleed through in their programming of the game. You tell me all of this, and then tell me to believe they actually support competitive play because???

Why not 5 stock then? That seems to reduce the problem of random SDs, and really good players will just blow out their opponents anyway so the matches shouldn't be too much longer on average.

It's not really torneyfaggotry. Smash is such a random ass game it's like it's pulling game mechanics outta the ass when I play my friends. It used to give me controller smashing rage. No other fighting game is like this. These bans are an attempt to make it sane and not shit

1 isn't the only number that puts him in disadvantage though. 2, 3, and 7 , if used at at too low of a percent, don't do enough hit stun to prevent an opponent from hitting back before GW can act again, and GW can't afford too many mistakes before he eats shit.

Tournaments have trouble going overtime as is, don't want them to go back to lasting till 4 in the fucking morning

You have no idea how ridiculous that sounds.
The game where half the cast have unique mechanics, some of which massively change the way that you fight them, that being a core part of the theme/nature of the game. But you want to ban one character to try to make the game 'sane'?

This whole hero situation has gotten out of hand. The dude has shit frame data. He's not gonna be OP

But they clearly care about the competitive scene. Smash 4 had balance patches, and in Ultimate they even added more "advanced" techniques that casual will never use.or care about.

Mr. Game and his nines have been a staple of Smash tournaments since forever.

Just add more days. If you want real 'competitive integrity' you should go the extra mile.

>playing samus

>Why not 5 stock then?
That's what I use locally. Its rare for it to last 10 minutes, and what kind of competition can you really expect when you can't even spare 10 minutes for a match? Hell, even a quarter in football is 15 minutes and they are doing a shit ton more than just clicking some damn buttons...

We never banned characters when I played brawl with my friends, just all the randomness shit like items and some of the crazier stages. It;s way too frustrating to lose because some fucking random bomb shit spawned in front of you and blew your ass up

Okay. What does that have to do with banning characters?

The point of the game is to play as your favorite characters faggot. Metroid is literally the only nintendo game I give a shit about

Honestly all the Hero problems wouldn't be that bad if the magic meter was much more limited as it should be.

Seriously , a couple of hits (even of those were blocked hits) fills like 30MP

Fuck this forsaken character we had a pretty good amount of different characters on tournaments and now I watched a Hero mirror on grand finals with bullshit you might expect, literally the Metaknight / Bayonetta unfun pick of Ultimate

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Because there's usually only two teams and the match is supposed to last a few hours and also leauges take several weeks not 3 days

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>don't want them to go back to lasting till 4 in the fucking morning
That is just poor planning/execution and isn't a problem with match lengths.

People are only picking Hero in GFs because its funny, Shine is the next supermajor this Friday and I can guarantee, 100%, that Hero won't be in top 32 a single time.

Only stupid players think that Hero is busted. He has some broken moves but he needs to topdeck to pull them out unless his opponent is stupid enough to give him the time and space to get what he needs. All you need to do is stay in their faces and be aware of their superarmor meme attack.

1.- The matches would take too long
2.- This isn't melee where a good combo can destroy a stock
3.- Ultimate is a defensive game, not much as smash 4 though.

I agree with you, but I bet we will see exactly 1 Hero in top 32. But it will be someone that is down a game already, and then they will still get destroyed.

Hero isn't that bad even without his Down-B, he still has better aerials than fucking G&W.
And at the moment you are off stage better pray to the RNJesus that he doesn't have Magic Burst.

He's still only Okay if you don't factor his meme menu. I've seen absolute retards try to space them out and then go onto Twitter complaining about how busted he is though. Like, no shit you oxygen huffing mongs, you're giving them exactly what they need to win.

>Because there's usually only two teams
There are tons of teams in the NFL user. They make a habit of putting on multiple games in a single day. Know what they have that your tournaments don't? Fucking common sense... Probably your biggest problem is that there should be a limit on the size of a tournament. 5000 people just randomly feeling ballsy one day thinking they can just show off how great they are at a game they play on the weekends does not make a competitive tournament. Make those fuckers go through shit like regionals and so forth.

His normals are terrible, his dash attack is abysmal. He is carried by side-B, and magic burst. The rest of the character is F-tier.

Just another example of how nintendies actively refuse to play anything except first party nintendo games. Smash doesn't offer a competitive 1v1 experience but they'll bend the iron to a monstrous deformity rather than giving other non-nintendo platform fighter a chance, or hell any other fighting game for that matter.

Smashcon included two non-nintendo fighting games. Wait, or was it three? I don't know if Brawlhala was there.

Slap City and RoA actually have some depth to them. Dodgehalla has no place at a smash event.

user, Locals and Majors exist the way they do because it's deeply ingrained into Arcade Culture, to emulate "muh sports" is just asking for all the fun to be drained out.
The whole appeal of a big tournament is that all you need to compete and potentially make a name for yourself is a controller,5-10 bucks, and Skill.

None of this dumb bullshit centered around qualifiers, that's boring and sterile and Anti-Fighter

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Why are you playing and treating a children's party game with rng as a legit fighting game then?

youtube.com/watch?v=QnE2mdGIT3o

Also, when I first played Ultimate, the first impression I had was "wow they definitely designed people to die quick as fuck in this game".

Fuck me, Prepatch Peach Fair was some bullshit

Give me her @.

>b-b-but why isn't this competitive
>hey get that competitive bullshit out of here
>i needs "muh fun"
You are the type of person that kills competitive scenes. Good luck with your ass backwards mentality and hopefully there will be others like you so that you can destroy any kind of smash scene you have going on around you.

By comparing the hero to the queen you admitted that the hero is indeed OP
Good job retard

Been going strong for nearly 2 Decades so

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Get rid of Thwack, Whack, and Hocus Pocus.

They're Smash attacks that don't work 90% of the time, it'd be stupid to remove them, you're just freeing up space for the better moves

This. What the fuck is wrong with this people? He is slow as shit.

retard

How about just make Thwack and Whack unable to kill at 0% at all
There, character fixed

>Luigi's Green Missile
>decent recovery move, has a 1/10 chance to hit really hard

>G&W
>2/9 chance to unfavor G&W, 6/9 chance to be decent, and 1/9 to be great and kill as early as 20%

>Peach
>a 1/166 chance of pulling a Mr. Saturn, and a 1/250 chance of pulling a Bob-omb
>anything she pulls might actually be used against her

>Hero
>all Smash attacks have a purely random chance to kill as early as 35%
>2 possible moves that can kill as early as 0%, increases at higher percents
>possible move that instantly recovers to stage
>possible move that is effectively Ganon's uptilt but even stronger
>possible move that is Jiggly's Sing but is a projectile
>a move with a massive hitbox that eats a third of the stage and will absolutely fuck you up if you're recovering when it's used
>a bunch of possible moves that are decent projectiles
>a few meme moves that don't do much
>a few moves that actively hurt Hero, from shrinking him to just killing him on the spot
>the only thing mitigating any of this is MP, which is restored very generously when the Hero lands a hit, even if it's blocked
>except for random crits, those aen't mitigated at all

"They're the exact same things bro it's just like Judge or Turnip bro you're exaggerating bro"

>I live in an area where anti-competitive tendencies helps breed competition
Do you happen to live in an ass backward liberal area like California or something?

So if you’re with a group of people playing Smash, you refuse to play unless they’re playing by a specific strict ruleset?

That's just how Fighting games have worked since they were in Arcades and it works just fine.

This shit pisses me off the most.
I don't care if you don't like dying at 20% on WarioWare, i'd actually like to play the fucking game rather than die from a thousand papercuts due to your lame playstyle on Pokemon Stadium 2.
t. Incineroar main

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In a tourney setting? Yes. In a friend setting, no.
This thread is about Hero in tourney settings.

That’s when you laugh and say “Oh shit!” not piss yourself with rage from losing a party game that means nothing.

>poke with a tilt or something
>proceed to take the stock with thwack

what makes a game into a 'legit' fighting game?
>you can't do that, the devs didn't intend it!
>ignore the fact that players are using programmed options that the devs intended for players to use

Technically speaking no game means anything at all

Sadly not all of us have reached Nirvana and enlightenment like you, Siddharta. Some of us actually feel invested in things we enjoy.

Do I just have shit luck? Because I never get his OHKO. Or is OP being a massive faggot and overly exaggerating this?

I think Thwack should only have a (low) chance to kill at 50% or something. If any lower than that feels unfair but any higher than that makes the move useless because you're better off using neutral b to kill at that point.

It happened in a grand finals somewhere recently.

You can be invested, there’s nothing wrong with that, but unless you’re fighting for money and are stupid enough to make competitive Smash your only source of income because you’re an idiot, you’re thinking too deep over a game. Having an item land on you is meant to be funny bad luck, not rage inducing.

I've lived in 12 states. Unstructured "competitions" have killed competitive scenes every time I've looked over my shoulder in every place I've tried to get into it. Only ones that have their shit together last more than a year. Again, where do you live? I would be beyond shocked if it wasn't a major city.

lmao watching Yea Forumsirgins try to talk about competitive anything is hilarious

stick to your grindan single-player rpg shit, shitters

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There are a hundred grand finals happening any day, 99% of them are no name tournaments in regions with no good players.

>what makes a game into a 'legit' fighting game?
Everything in the game is allowed and goes.
If not sf tournaments need to ban Akuma because “he’s too op” or shotos because spamming hadouken is “not fair”.

Nigger your weird RP session is getting out of hand, you know how the Fighting scene works and its worked fine ever since the inception of the fucking genre with street fighter 2

Well sucks for that dudes opponent. But he is a character in the game so I can get the serious butthurt but if he's too reliant on RNG, they could just ban him. Then again, a character that relies on RNG also has a chance to lose because of the RNG so it kind of balances out?

But Akuma was banned from an SF game.... SSF2 Turbo to be exact, and that game is still played very religiously

Akuma was banned in SF2 tourneys. The devs nerfed him ever since, and he's not banned anymore in newer games. There are banned stages in SFV right now, however.

LMAO stop larping you gigasperg, you haven't competed in anything since you somehow won the race to the ovum

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this is what happens when a bunch of mentally retarded man children take a children's party game as serious business
smashfags are retarded

>your weird RP session is getting out of hand
What weird RP session? I'm a contractor without a family. Living all over the place is pretty normal.

Replying twice to try and accuse someone of pretending to do something is quite pathetic. Once is enough user.

Incels just hate / fear Fire Emblem and love Dragon Quest. I bet if that stage was from Zelda they'd be all for it. Think about it. They all cry when an FE character is added, but then they add four generic swordsmen (with some of the most generic designs of all time) and they'll all baseding out.

Still works because he still has to hit you first instead of going full YOLO and down-b + instaselecting first option to start the round

Seriously though, when the fuck has screaming "SAMEFAG SAMEFAG" ever worked?

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clearly hero is having an effect in tournament, is almost a month and we can already see hero's on top 8 in all weekly tournaments.
This didn't happen with Joker, nor with plant.

>Completely ignoring that Hero is seeing a lot of play solely because of people bitching about him

>Hasnt even been in top 32 of a major and won't ever be

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Oh shit that means... wait, calculating...
*number crunching*
Literally nothing!

Solution: Lower MP regeneration to 60% or more. MP regen on enemy hit also reduced by 60% or more (Or even nothing regenerated).

Now Hero mains should use MP conservately and wisely. Or end up dead. Simple.

If MP regen is nerfed, Hero couldn't be compared to G&W/Peach/Luigi as they can infinitely pull off their moves, and Hero can do their MP shit a limited amount of times, or stall to recover more MP... Or just end up dead.

wow pay2win in a fighting game I bet nobody saw this coming

Do you think like... tournaments make players only play with characters they own?

Random Number Tweaking is the worst way to balance a character, nerfing OR buffing

>Muh FE
Ignoring that this applies to fucking Robin too? Are you a bonafide idiot or just pretending to be one?

>generic swordsman
>More magic based and unique than Robin, who also isn't a "generic swordsman"
I guess we're leaning towards bonafide.

Oh yeah I'm just gonna go ahead and not train with/against the most powerful/viable/used characters you really figured that one out user.

>Remove all of the elements of the game that make it interesting
Even without half the game it's still interesting, because unlike Mario Kart it has a competent foundation.

Are you retarded? Where's the RNG in mana regen?

Like I said, make his mana regen slower. Then Hero becomes a castrated Anime Sword guy with nothing special on him once his MP goes to 20 or less.

Kill at your discretion.

Go to the house of your training buddies. You do have training buddies right? You don't play alone, do you user?

>ban half a game
>call yourself a pro at it

If you can't compete with everything in a game as is you're not a pro at it, you wouldn't be a pro at a racing game for only being able to handle half the tracks or cars.

I agree with you but
>hero has low MP
>opponent goes in to punish
>Hero throws a dashback fsmash and gets crit
>opponent dies
MP doesn't affect crits and while I think nerfing MP regeneration will really help with MOST of Hero's bullshit, he will still have crits that kill midweights at 40%. They should remove crits

What fucking Majors? EVO wasn't on recent patch and for Smash Con it was too early, there were like 4 heros in top 65 ffs, zackray used hero somewhere on the pool.

It does? it means people are getting carried by him.

but you'd be a pro in fps by only knowing 3 maps and 1 game mode. What a stupid argument

>remove promised feature
Haha no.

Street Fighter 2, which arguably made competitive fighting games popular, has Akuma banned competitively. SFV also has banned stages. Are the best SF2 and SFV players suddenly not pros because they din't play with "everything in the game" as you say?

I think somehow you're missing the part where having to pay to be better at a video game you already paid $60 for isn't good even if Nintendo does it. Just cuz Nintendo does something doesn't automatically make it great

>Smashcon was too early

By what fucking arbitrary merit?
It was more than a week, individual characters aren't that complicated

You have no proof they were getting carried by him, unless you have data that they previously competed and did NOT do well.

If someone is just getting another top 8, but with a different character, then Hero isn't doing anything for them. So if you want that data to mean anything, better start digging for names. But I doubt you will, so it means jack shit.

wait do are you using fucking locals for your "this character needs to be banned" rubric

smashfags are a different breed

It's not about your language choice, it's about opponent's. Do I have to learn the menu in every single language?

Hmm...

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You don't have to pay to be good. Play a different character. Hero isn't the best character, so it isn't pay 2 win. PT is a top tier character, in the base game.

Of course, how can you be a pro at a game if you don't play the entire game?

Would you be a pro at a game just because you're the best at finishing the first stage, but ignore the rest? No, that's stupid.

Do you know why Akuma is banned? It's not because he has one or two strong points like Hero. And the stages being banned is literally meaningless, because outside of the beach stage, they have no impact on the how the game plays.

Then even with nerfed MP regen, Hero would be busted and might as well be banned. Judge and Green Missile are not at all comparable to basic moves like fucking Smash attacks having a random chance to hit really fucking hard.

>Smash claims to use more of the environment
>Afraid to let people pick stages for their advantage

LMAO
M
A
O

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>Solution: Fuck up a character completely beyond any hope of redemption because that character is C-tier and pissing off a bunch of nobody's that can't stand losing to other nobodies.
How about no?

Have you ever tried playing with items 1v1? Like legitimately, go online and turn on items. When you win it doesn't feel like you actually tried. I'll play Free for All with items all day every day, but Professional play is a test of skill, and items and weird stages will not reflect that at all.

>Of course, how can you be a pro at a game if you don't play the entire game?
Lmao okay I guess Daigo isn't a professional Street Fighter player
It doesn't matter WHY, it only matters if anything was banned at all. The guy I was responding to said "If you can't compete with everything in a game as is you're not a pro at it".

Turning off items and stages is built into the game too, you stupid fuck.

>some characters have good final smashes compared to others
>this is considered unbalanced
Yes, because every other move across all 80+ characters have the exact same value and power.
Competitive smash-fags need the gas

There’s a difference between banning gameplay features intended to make the game more fun and banning an entire character

Hero's tier has nothing to do with the push to ban him though. It's really just his random factor being too much and too easy to pull off.

It would be better if crits were just "stored" instead of a random chance. Just like Little Mac's OHKO.

But faster recharging, and impossible to use on MP moves.

When it's used, Hero glows, alerting others to stay the fuck away from Hero. If Hero whiffs the attack, it wastes the crit.

Pretty sure that would make things more fair and make crit chance more acceptable. Just like Mac's OHKO.

Just giving here a solution. Not a particular fan of Hero (I'm inclined on Doom Slayer, and willing to main the fuck out of him once it enters in), but I'm pretty sure that crit shit could be tweaked to the best, eliminating any RNG factor.

Nice shitpost but anyone who plays Smash for more than 10 minutes can see that shit like Zelda killing you at 0 from halfway across the stage isn't balanced at all

If you've ever played against a Zelda with FS on you will understand that some FS are unfair compared to the dime-a-dozen "dash forward and start a cutscene for raw damage" FSs.

And for the 100th time, people think that is a dumb reason to ban a character. If it isn't for the power level of the character, let them be goofy and have RNG. Competitive integrity is a buzzword, and means nothing. If the character isn't strong enough to win tournaments, they won't show up in your big tournaments, so the competitive integrity is fine.

>Would you be a pro at a game just because you're the best at finishing the first stage

it depends entirely on the game in question.There is absolutely nothing wrong with putting boundaries up in games with high levels of customization. Competitive quake didn't use all of it's hundreds of maps, no competitive fps takes shit like ctf seriously, every single gun isn't allowed, etc. The idea that smash is somehow less competitive because people use the options is fucking retarded and only makes any kind of sense when comparing it to the average fighting game which is incredibly less ambitious than smash and doesn't have the problem of so many options.

Good thing you get several lives. Picking an otherwise mediocre character like zelda comes with a plus of having a good final. Pros and cons. Sounds fair.

>Hero's tier has nothing to do with the push to ban him though
Neither does his random factor. It is just some worthless southern australians that probably got beat by a new character and overreacted. This is the same country that hates 30 year olds with flat chests because their god given body somehow promotes pedophilia. Not exactly the model place for good judgement now is it?

That's a good suggestion, actually. Sadly it being random is how it stays true to the source material, so they'll probably leave crits in as random.

Not my fault, chief. They made Hero OP as shit. I'm suggesting changes. Feel free to criticize them as much as you like. You think I give a damn about Hero? I'm doing Generic Anime Sword Guy a small favor.

I don't respect any one else, except the Doom Slayer.

People have been practicing with their main characters for more than 6 Months and you expect people that have 1 week of practice to beat all of them?
not even MKLEO did that,
Doesn't change the fact that people are doing well with him despite every contrarian saying he's mid tier.
I repeat, we did not see this change with Joker nor with Plant.

when did i say i want him banned? i only said it's having an effect and we are seeing more Hero on the scene

>OP
heh

>being too much and too easy to pull off
Already been talked to death in this thread. It isn't too much and too easy. The fact that something CAN be done doesn't mean it is done on a normal basis nor does it mean it is easy to pull off.

Gotta call bullshit on that. Pretty sure they gotta change the mechanics at some point.

I don't think even the Japanese people will sit right losing to bullshit crits.

Give it 2-3 months or so. Not even the most avid DQ fans would sit through this... And I'm pretty sure Japanese aren't as retarded as a bundle of stones.

>get killed at 0% by a move that isn't reliant on skill
"Ah yes so fair and balanced. Who cares right, it wasn't EVO so it doesn't matter."
>If the character isn't strong enough to win tournaments
Except a Hero did win a tourney with a 0% Thwack killin grand finals. Now you're going to move the goalposts and say "but that's a literal who tourney it doesn't matter".
No, people have been pushing for a ban since Day 1 (technically Day 0 since they discussed his random kill factor as early as then). I care not what convicts and haters of petite women think, but a broken clock gets it right twice a day.

>OP as shit
Again, he's mid tier. Nothing OP about him.

>Generic Anime Sword Guy
>b-b-but his magic g-g-guys
Fucking pick one user. Calling him a generic anime sword guy while constantly complaining about him having magical options just makes you sound like an idiot.

People get top 8 with literally any character. Smash Ultimate's tiers aren't end all be all. Did you watch Evo? Do you think Duckhunt is top tier?

>Lmao okay I guess Daigo isn't a professional Street Fighter player
If he can't play against every character on any stage that's hardly very professional level is it? Sure he might be very good within a certain set of boundaries, but that's not the whole game, ergo he's not a pro at the game.

Doesn't depend on the game, if you ban or remove chunks of a game then claim to be a pro at it you're just flat out wrong, if you cannot play the entire game as it is then you're not a pro at it, simple as that.

>2 possible moves that can kill as early as 0%, increases at higher percents
>possible move that instantly recovers to stage
>possible move that is effectively Ganon's uptilt but even stronger
>possible move that is Jiggly's Sing but is a projectile
>a move with a massive hitbox that eats a third of the stage and will absolutely fuck you up if you're recovering when it's used
>a bunch of possible moves that are decent projectiles
>critical fucking hits
>"not too much and not too easy"

>No, people have been pushing for a ban since Day 1
No one of merit has been pushing for it. Move on.

Well feel free to keep being piss-scared of a bottom tier character, because he ain't getting banned. If it didn't happen yet, it won't happen. Enjoy your seething.

You are actually retarded. Look up what "professional" means and then end yourself.

>this entire thread

Attached: hoes.png (640x763, 553K)

>ergo he's not a pro at the game.
Sure thing retard

This thread is a great argument for the "smash players have autism" belief. Fear of change is a big one for autists, like you guys.

Armada and Leffen so far have pushed for it.
>inb4 they don't count because they don't place high in tourneys
They're still better than you and I.
I'm not scared of Hero. I actually play a rushdown and have bee moderately lucky so I haven't lost to Hero's randomness in 1v1s yet. But the fact it CAN happen should warrant concern because not all of us can get lucky every time.

where do you think you are

I would much rather fight Hero getting one or two lucky insta kills amongst 3 matches MAYBE, than a Joker who just trounces me the entire fight because he's a consistently good character. But hey, that's just me.

Autism on Yea Forums is a sliding scale, and smashfags are as far as the scale goes

I mean, that's just Psych-Up. Crits should only have a chance of happening when he has Psych-Up active is what you're essentially saying, and that sounds mighty fine to me.

Naw, it shouldn't warrant concern for the same reason I don't ask for fast characters to get banned just because I play a super heavy. There are bad matchups. Have a counter pick.

>2 possible moves that can kill as early as 0%
Both can even be blocked with your shield, and neither of them have good rates of killing. Any move in the game can kill at 0% if you are fighting an idiot such as yourself.
>instantly recovers to stage
You have to bring up a menu and hope its in the menu. It is almost impossible for you to get knocked of stage far enough where zoom is a better option than a fully charged up B. Also once you bring up that menu, hero starts dropping like a rock. Try actually using the character if you are going to pretend you know enough to evaluate him.
>Magic Burst
God damn can you people not bother reading the god damn thread? I'm not going over this move 5000 times an hour. It is a fairly shitty move. Stop bragging about how you are the only idiot on the planet that can't fucking get past this move that cripples your opponent.
>decent projectiles
As I've already said in this thread, Kaboom is the best move in his toolkit, but now that is a different argument than your dumb as fuck RNG arguments that you fucks can't get over.
>critical fucking hits
Rare as fuck and fairly meaningless in a game that lets everyone kill people quick as fuck anyways.
>"not too much and not too easy"
Yeah?

That's another can of worms entirely. Joker is very, very good but isn't near Sm4sh Bayo so he's not going anywhere. Meanwhile Hero is a shit character that anyone with decent skill and a character better than low tier should be able to deal with him, but the random factor might steal stocks at inopportune times. Alternatively, a really good Hero player might be leading and then he top decks Hocus Pocus and blows himself up, so it's also unfair for the Hero player.

Yes because of autists like you.

is Roshi correct?

Attached: hearthstone.jpg (640x480, 40K)

How do I counter the chance of the opponent Hero from topdecking Magic Burst when I'm offstage? It hasn't happened to me but I saw a webm of it happening recently
>inb4 just don't get thrown offstage bro
I'm good but not a god

but that's not entirely true, there are characters that are clearly better than others.
Certain characters have being winning more than others, and it shows.
Duck hunt is an exception to the rule, Raito was an amazing player and props for him to reach top 8, but result shows everything
I'm just stating results as a whole because Hero's was too young to go far in smash con, but even so we see him everywhere on the small scale tournaments.

this, no one can get an easy edgeguard kill like Hero does, not even the Top Tier ledge trappers.

Smashfags are kinda ridiculous for disabling 90% of the game

Yeah, and we also see characters like G&W do well despite being low tier for forever. Tier lists don't mean trash, and basic Smash skills can carry you through most characters. Hero plays like a slower Link most of the time, it isn't rocket science.

>no one of merit
>but user, here are two people who aren't of merit, but before you say something I will green text that response which means your obvious and legit reply is no longer legit because I say so
Um...

>I'm not scared of Hero
>p-p-please ban this thing I-I-I'm not scared of
Again, I just don't know how to reply...

You can also pick ZSS who has an overwhelming 7-3 advantage against Hero.

>play a real fighting game!
>no DI, arbitrary inputs, combos so long you can put down the controller, no sp content, on disc dlc, input lag, long loading times, artificial difficulty, laggy online, no custom games
What did they mean by this?

i repeat, some characters are better than others, and results show that.
I know that all the characters are getting mixed results but they never get the same results as the Top Tier ones.
Tier list do matter.

>Any move in the game can kill at 0% if you are fighting an idiot such as yourself.
It can kill at 0% and already has at grand finals of a local tournament.
>inb4 it's not an important tourney so it doesn't count
>You have to bring up a menu and hope its in the menu.
Chance is a chance. It hasn't happened to me personally but I've seen it happen. Thankfully you can react and punish, usually.
>magic burst
If you're offstage when he uses it you're fucked. This isn't a question of skill or my proposed lack thereof. It's inescapable in this situation and it can only happen due to chance.
>critical hits
They're not rare. They have a 1/8 chance. That's actually more common that Judge 9.
>inb4 just don't get hit

Do you place higher in tourneys than Armada nad Leffen? If not, then they're of greater merit than you.
>implying you're only allowed to care about an issue if it affects you directly

Whats the name of the game you just described?

And if the player doesn't use ZSS?
>just use the top tiers dude
lmao

>laggy online,
The rest of your post is right but Smash has this too
I immediately thought of the MK series

>They're still better than you and I
And the top 10 are better than them and none of them agree with the hero ban

Do you want to win, or do you want to play friendlies?

Judge 9 is also 1/8, far more powerful, and can be comboed into. Also you can dodge magic burst unless your character has a worthless recovery that is free anyway.

Magic Burst last 110 frames and can easily cover all ledge and edgeguard options.

MKLeo said he was boring and broken, and he hasn't spoken out against the push for the ban. He's the best of the best and since you love appealing to authority so much you'll see it differently now.

>Hero invalidate too many characters!
>These characters invalidate Hero
>Lmao
Lmao?

MKLeo has autism.

>source: trust my bro

His word has the most merit when it comes to SSBU though.

>He hasn't said anything
>That means he must be for it!
Ok mister mind reader

It's not the fucking twack that's the problem, random crits are a load of bullshit.

He straight up said he's boring and broken. That's a little more than "hasn't said anything"

Source is one of Nairo's streams

Sure. But he hasn't called for a Hero ban, so I'm fine with him thinking the character is 'boring and broken'. He also tried to pull it out and lost with it at Smashcon, I believe.

With this logic everyone everyhwere might as well just use the top tiers all the time. 20XX here we come.

If you aren't good enough to make your mid-tier pick great, you should use a top tier pick for the advantage. That is, if you want to win at all costs.

It wasnt Smashcon, it was some local either WNF or MSM, and he got paid 300$ to play Hero.

>already has at grand finals of a local tournament.
Tons of shit has happened in the game. Something happening once doesn't make said thing a ban worthy event. Was it so random that the person just clicked away at the menu so fast that he didn't know what he was pressing? If so, then he is a shitty player that shouldn't have made it half way through the tourney. How the fuck did he make it that far to begin with? We need more than a "something happened somewhere" for this to be a valid topic of discussion.
>Chance is chance
You missed the point entirely. There is no scenario where Zoom is the obvious choice. If you are close enough to the stage where you can't tell if zoom or up b is the better choice, then zoom is not the better choice. If you are far enough off stage where you can't tell, you are already dead. You are going to drop like a rock when you open that menu and you have to hope zoom is in quick reach. Ignoring that menu and going for up b is more likely to save you than zoom is. You see that one random zoom saving someone and think "OMG RNG SAVED HIS ASS" but the fact that he is relying on RNG has COSTED him more lives than it has saved.
>If you're offstage when he uses it you're fucked
Not even close. You can attack him to interrupt it, reducing him to 0 MP. If you are too far away for this to work. You are far enough away that you might outlast the blast before getting back to the stage anyway. Yes, some characters have a chance of being fucked, but since when are character matchups a new thing? Also, some characters can edge guard MUCH better than a measly random magic blast and they don't need MP to do it either. Where are the complaints for them?
>They have a 1/8 chance.
Bull fucking shit... I must have a 1/100 chance of winning the mega millions lottery if that's true. I've been hit by his crit maybe 3 times in the past week and I fight against him non-stop on a daily basis from what it seems like.

Ah, thanks for the correction. I couldn't remember exactly when he pulled it out.
Yeah he pulled the Hero, lost, and switched back to a character he is actually good at.

Well yeah, counterpicking has existed since the conception of fighting games period. Even Armada counterpicks in Melee sometimes.

All right then. Marss recently retweeted a video that endorsed a ruleset change, and Hero being banned was a focal point. There's your person of merit.

user, I said no one of merit is complaining about Hero. I'm not complaining about Hero either, so my merit doesn't matter. I could be the best player in the world, but my merit would still mean jack shit. Again, no one of merit is complaining about Hero.

And then there's M2K and Kameme, whose entire careers are built around counterpicking their opponent.

>Bull fucking shit... I must have a 1/100 chance of winning the mega millions lottery if that's true. I've been hit by his crit maybe 3 times in the past week and I fight against him non-stop on a daily basis from what it seems like.
According to the ingame tool tip and the wiki, it's 1/8 chance.

Who is fucking eating all these smash attacks to care about these? And his smashes are ass without crit.

Ah, okay. Marss is pretty good, top 16 is good for Evo. I mean it still isn't going to happen, but good for him.

Online only players

Define "of merit". If it means "places high in tourneys" then MKLeo complained about Hero.

>Game lets you pick your character after you know the stage
Woooow, what am I gonna do now? Right, let's pick the character that is at disadvantage on that stage!

>smashes are ass without crit
No they're pretty decent. Very average if a little slow.

Fucking this, I wanted to get into "competitive" smash but there's just too much autism going on for me, removing the smash meter and items is good in my opinion but the stage selection is autistic
>NOOOO you can't pick that stage it's too small Heavies are too good on it!
>That stage that is literally thrice it's size and that as such benefit camp characters that are boring to watch and lightweights heavely is okay though
>n-no you can't pick that one either there are food items which heal like 10% on it that spawn
>pick that stage which you can sometimes randomly glitch through and die instead
>WTF NO you can't pick Hero's stage it has random platform layouts!
>What do you mean all of these layouts are balanced? It's still random!
>WTF WHY WOULD YOU BAN HERO RANDOM IS GOOD!

>According to the ingame tool tip
>for a Nintendo game
Do yourself a favor and never play a pokemon game.

Super Meter is unbalanced as fuck once you take into consideration that, even in its weakened state, characters like Zelda can instant kill you with it around certain percentages. Meanwhile characters like Mario will probably never kill with theirs given how weak they are when used from meter.

Fucking this. People will spout Hoes Mad x24 but will ban small stages and anything with more inclines than Yoshi's Island on SIGHT.

>A little slow
His forward smash is slower than incineroar. 17 frames. Up smash is 13 frames.

street fighter tournaments ban infinite time, and handicap already user. all tournaments have rules.

My argument is: if the stage has anything that could possible kill you (minibosses/enemies) with minimum input on the opponents behalf, it should not be legal. Otherwise even living stages should be legal.
except Great Cave. it’s way too big. Even eight player sucks on it

Hi leffen

items weren't banned for being distracting, they were banned because their spawns were unpredictable. If items had fixed spawn time and location (like heroes spells do) they would be legal.

All sources I can find online say it's 1/8 or 12% to crit. None have citations, though. According to what I labbed on Day 1 of his release, I did 100 fsmashes with Hero and got 13 crits. Later I did another 100 and got 9.

>Define "of merit"
First off, disliking a character isn't calling for a ban so don't conflate the two. As far as "of merit", I would say anyone who has actually done major in-depth analysis of the character. I'm talking M2K levels of autism poored into studying the character. If you can't tell me a realistic percent chance for shit like criticals, OHKOs from Whack and Thwack, chances for each move to show up in down b, average time it takes to select a specific move in down b, pixels needed to be off stage for Zoom to be worth risking, and so on, then you haven't done enough research on the character to tell me there is a legit reason to ban him. All you are telling me is there is some chance in hell of an upset happening due SOLELY to his RNG and you don't have a single instance to support that.

>Decide to check the tweet in question
>Tweet video was about smash having cut out TOO MUCH for competitive play
>Literally only a preview saying that the guy was going to talk about Hero and at no point saying he's for the ban
You disingenuous fuck.

Did we watch the same video? A major point was how the community needs to work faster to respond to proposed bans. He verbally brought up Meta Knight in Brawl and Melee wobbling during this time, and its no stretch of the imagination he also meant Hero.

To be fair, responding to proposed bans also includes saying 'no we aren't banning him'. His problem is likely it hanging in the air. It leaves people practicing a character while not knowing if it will be banned next week. It wastes their time.

>S-SMASH IS A PARTY GAME
>B-BUT PLEASE ADD ITEMS AND FINAL SMASHES BACK PLZZZZZZ
Weak mental gymnastics.

Attached: 1565331765394.png (1920x998, 1.4M)

I average 1 crit every 20 to 30 hits. Hell, I've even had times where I've done magicless matches and went a few matches without criticals. I hate using my own percentages though since I do have below average luck compared to a normal person. I'm like lancer servants in fate with their E tier luck...

twitter.com/rishissb/status/1163481305188839425?s=19
If Marss retweeted another video aside from this one, feel free to share

Based

As far as we know crits occur 12% of the time.
We don't know the percent of Whack and Thwack yet, but it CAN kill at 0%. It already happened.
Don't know the chance each move might come up from the menu, but some moves are rarer than others.
Average time to pull a spell is 19 frames to open menu, with 4 frames every time you move the cursor. Most basic moves from this menu have 6 frame start up. Meatier spells take longer.
Don't know on Zoom yet, but Hero does stop moving when he activates it so technically you could do it 19 frames before touching the blastzone, assuming it's the first option. At worst you could do it 27 frames before touching the blastzones if it's the third option.

His random elements do not over centralize the game. They're a problem for low skilled players but that not relevant to a tournament. Though 90% Of players are bad so they got priced out by hero increasing the required skill floor. Nobody wants to learn how to mitigate hero even though that's just matchup knowledge like with anyone else. People are fine camping bowser but seethe at the idea of camping when they see thwack on the menu.

For the health of the game, sure, ban him. More people will be happy, which is what really matters in the end.

This post worked much better in your head I'm afraid

The formula for Whack to succeed is:
>1 + 200(pt - 20) / 280 + 20 * (pH / 300)
...where pt is the target's percent pre-hit limited to between 20% and 300%, and pH is Hero's percent limited to 300% or less. As a result, the final rate is 1% when the opponent is below 20% damage, and scales up to 100% when the opponent is just below 160% damage, with a maximum extra 20% chance if Hero is at 300% damage.
The success formula of Thwack is identical to Whack.

sources:
twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1163394775006892032 twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1163395871817383936
twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1163398560076857344

>Are Ultishart's really so obsessed with spiting Melee
yes. it's sad really.

Attached: 1538958746490.jpg (1024x768, 104K)

A loud minority will be happy. More people will not be happy.

I forgot to mention inclines, shit is really autistic too especially when Yoshi's Island's inclines are some of the most "abusive" compared to other stages that are banned because of inclines. You can also add walls but I guess a point can be made that they're a bit too easy to exploit with certain characters though I don't think it's bad enough that it warent an instaban.

You've been able to disable items from the very first game, underage.

Randomness is removed by controlling items, smashes, stages, and so on. The one thing that is left in the game to create the excitement necessary for tournaments to be worth a shit is being able to use different characters. Hell, we aren't even talking about a broken character. We are talking about a mid-tier character that will always be beat if the other person is a better player in the tournament. Why is this shit even a discussion? Ignore the fucking idiots until they get tired of their own voice and stop crying on their own. There is a reason those fuckers are stuck in Australia.

This mentality that you need an "upset" to decide to ban a character is going to bite you all in the ass one day. One day someone at an actually important tourney is going to change to Hero on a whim at game 3 and is going to win with Thwack. The other player will have been robbed of a fair chance at game 3 and only then will discussion move forward. TOs are notoriously slow as fuck to move along with bans because they're Jews who want Nintendo's sponsorship so it's better to decide sooner than later.

You're ignoring everything before that culminated into the Hero player "robbing" the other.

reminder someone is backporting Hero into vanilla Project:M
we're coming for you Brawleeniggers too

Attached: smugku.jpg (633x651, 25K)

You can't be 'robbed' when having a fair match against another character. Thwack is part of their kit, if you die to it you die to it. You lost fair and square. Don't try to use charged language to make it seem like some tragedy.

Plus as a viewer, I would be hyped, and laughing.

You have any videos or screenshots? Love seeing content backported.

i opt we counter Hero with another swordie with juicy crits behind it

who's with me?

Attached: lyn-spirit-enhanced.jpg (1708x720, 725K)

Because of how Thwack and Whack are calculated (Hero having more damage adds an additional 20% of success) it's entirely possible both of them would be on their last stock, with the Hero having a much higher percent, and then he pulls a Thwack and kills the opponent at 20%

>You can't be 'robbed' when having a fair match against another character. The touch of death ladder combo is part of Bayonetta's kit, if you die to it you die to it. You lost fair and square. Don't try to use charged language to make it seem like some tragedy.

This is also true.

I'm referring to Sm4sh Bayonetta of course.

>Flame slash
>Breaking your shield
Nigger how

I know, you are trying to make me care by relating it to a character that was strong in a previous game that I don't give a shit about. I wouldn't have banned her either, but at least people admitted they wanted her banned because she was strong. The people who want Hero banned start pulling out buzzwords like 'competitive integrity', when they don't even know what they mean.

How did both players get to a last stock situation?

Damn, I genuinely don't know what to say to you if you wouldn't have banned Sm4sh Bayo. I don't even know what competitive integrity even means I just know it's unfair for a 1% chance to kill opponents at 0%. But not wanting to ban someone who could slide to you from halfway across the stage, with 90% surety depending on their skill, combo you to the top blast zone at 0%? Christ.

Just curious, what was your opinion on Brawl Meta Knight?

They both just jumped off the edges, in a supreme display of masculinity. Only the last stock matters, you see. Nothing happened before that.

I don't have one.

>Lyn
um, no FEsweaties

Attached: Render12.png (1920x1080, 594K)

>With this logic everyone everywhere might as well just use the top tiers all the time.
Just pick a top tier!
I want the money to work for me, I'm tired of working for money!

>>proceeds to break your shield with flame slash, a frame 6 move
you dumb ass nigga, that was a Psych Up Flame Slash

Brawl meta knight might as well have been the only character where you could see high level plays due to how gutted the game was. An MK ditto would inevitably have more things happening than any other matchup combination. Brawl was less of a situation where MK was too strong but everyone else was too weak.

Leffen is a faggot loser and if you listen to him, so are you.

Have sex.

go to bed sanford

are you smoking crack? All of brawl's top tiers were busted as shit yet MK still managed to be above them

Well the grand finals situation that already happened, albeit at a smaller scene, had a Hero mirror match and both played normally. One hero (Puppeh) got the other to last stock but the second Hero hit Puppeh a few times and reset. Both were at 0% and last stocks. Puppeh threw a Thwack and killed.

>TOs are notoriously slow
This is a bad thing? Most people don't live in a world of hypotheticals trying to prevent things that never would have happened in the first place anyway.

>High level play
>5 pikmins and Snake's invisible hitboxes

So he outplayed the other guy for 2 stocks.

>He plays the game competitively

Attached: 1563856876201.png (491x327, 128K)

I know that is bait, but do the math
Hocus pocus has a 3% chance of showing off
With that saied only 3 out of the eleven things that can happen are positive
Let's assume they are all equally possible, so around 27%
With that assumption You have 0.8% of probability of getting away with an advantage
G&W judge has 12% of possibility of OHKO you
Now tell me who the fuck would go for something harder than winning the lottery in a serious competition
And tell me why you guys a such a bunch of bitches

Attached: 8186907_f520.jpg (520x579, 49K)

Can't wait for Banjo's down B to produce random items too

Cult of faggotry and no fun and they cant stop drinkin the koolaid

This not considering the time of fiddling around with the combact menu, and the more you reroll the more you can be punished for it

No? It was pretty even. They were both in last stocks, and the guy who lost evened it out himself before eating Thwack.

>DQ hero(es) will now always be associated with the words "hoes mad"

Fuck Sakurai, fuck the Smash fanbase and most of all, fuck this game.

It's this generations' easiest way to piss off someone, just because they don't have too much time to write anything that's more than just 'hoes mad'

>inb4 Hoes Mad replies to you

What's the best way to play some items matches without fucking your GSP up from being cheesed to death? Arenas I guess?
>caring about GSP
I wish it was hidden personally, but I'm already infected with le high number obsession and get pissed when I lose.

>that shitheap of a ninten render
at least try, dude

Attached: smash_ultimate_ninten_by_shinfurevindo-dch9m7k.png (845x945, 403K)

lets be honest bois, yeah na and japan get all the results and maybe like 2 guys in eu but south australia are the REAL trendsetters, they run this shit with an iron k rool fist

>Seriously , a couple of hits (even of those were blocked hits) fills like 30MP
His moves are also slow as shit and you're guaranteed to get punished by it. You basically trade off damage for MP if the opponent knows what they're doing.

It has a 1% chance of killing at 0. Combined with the extremely low rate you can even get Whack/Thwack and killing at zero is just unfeasible in a normal match.

it's a new render for NintenDS' new Ninten mod update, ya doof
forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=218085

Attached: Render00.png (1920x1080, 597K)

>posts the frankenstein fan render
at least the other render is internally done and expressive

Dude, he literally can't do shit to her. She jumps over nearly all of his projectiles and can rush him down before he even has a chance to pull up the menu.

You're aware you can tech Magic Burst, right?
mobile.twitter.com/Tilted_as_fuck/status/1161705266016071680

Lyn is too good for even official Smashes

Attached: sucks to be a lynfaggot.png (1183x453, 694K)

daily reminder the first "hoes mad" Erdrick image was a Fire Emblem twitter shitpost along with the rest of the others

Attached: file.png (500x243, 144K)

get used to it
Ridley had "2big", the Killager shit, and Shulk had "le feelin' it" pushed to overdrive

Smash kiddies like to meme about everything and run it down in favor/against it

Attached: smug dead body joins chaos.jpg (331x323, 54K)

frankenstein one looks better

>those misaligned colors
>horse face
>awkward ears
>missing a lot from his official commercial design
meanwhile, the former has the attention to detail and its just a typical render of the model itself like all official Brawl renders

the Frankenstein one looks more awful

here you go

wait1 idle:
cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/356144764766388224/607712113124835328/Animation25.gif

Command Menu selection idle:
cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/356144764766388224/607011621000315052/Animation23.gif

grab:
imgur.com/a/LhIIv7a

basics:
imgur.com/8Gzksnm

criticals:
https/i.imgur.com/EUMTNuf.mp4
imgur.com/YpY2lFE
imgur.com/a/zGPiAEc

aerials:
imgur.com/a/yOj0vVu

zapple:
imgur.com/a/nqPCrDi

kaswoosh:
imgur.com/a/H0lm7o8

Sizz:
imgur.com/a/Z4iLBKk

lots of progress is being made

Attached: Animation29.gif (1330x665, 1.72M)