Fuck modern game design

Witcher 3s medieval GPS gives me a strong sense of playing GTA. You are watching the minimap all the fucking time, no matter whether you are fighting enemies or traveling.

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No, you are nitpicking and biased. I win, bye bye.

Ironically a fucking nintendo game does exploration a million times better than Witcher 3

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Its also easier to paste a quest marker than to write out dialogue/instructions to be given to the PC

If the world design is actually realistic, quest markers are unnecessary and OP would be right because NPC's would tell you were to go and you could easily find your way just by the terrain. In The Witcher 3 you spend most of the time looking at the minimap while maintaining the auto-run button so you don't even enjoy that "realistic" world. These open worlds you seem to like so much are not realistic in the slightest and are not enjoyable. They're not even worlds to begin with, they're just a bunch of roads for you to mindlessly roam.

>Games that have quest-markers are not designed to be played without them.
>durr just open your map and look at the marker

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Whats the point of creating and having these giant worlds if they take away from the experience?

This. Instructions that have to be translated for different markets as well.

That only works in games that were designed to have no quest markers.
The fact that most games are designed to have them and render the games unplayable if removed is proof that the developers are insulting people's intelligence.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having map markers. Complaining about compass markers is different, but why anyone would be against map markers in games with big maps is beyond me. Unless you just like having no idea where to go

also don't forget the medieval fantasy google glass

what pretentious fuck said this?

because "having no idea where to go" is the point to dense motherfucker
fucking zoomers can figure nothing out for themselves

Was about to comment with a real life comparison, but then i remembered that everyone just uses phone GPS to find things now. But believe it or not, there used to be a time before everyone had a pocket GPS, and you found places and objects by having the path to them described by other people. And guess what, that same system of having someone describe a path to you, and you following his instructions still works even today!

But why would anyone want that?

Yea. If I stop using LFR, LFG and other cross server shit retail WoW will become Classic. Retard.

I never once felt like getting lost was comfy in old games
It was more often than not, a waste of time and frustrating

Fuck off

>can't even read the text in OP post
Yep pretty sure OP post is correct, minimaps are made for retards who can't read

>Virtual Environmental Enrichment through Video Games Improves Hippocampal-Associated Memory
>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4682779/
Who is BIG BRAIN here?

I don't know, why would anyone go on an adventure in the first place?

I don't play shitty MMOs so IDK what any of that means. Still can't believe people are (or even were) willing to pay a monthly subscription for one lame game

>Super Mario 3D World
>Two control conditions (passive and training in a 2D game, Angry Birds)
Amazing what gets funding

People that hate exploration are already slaves to the dangling carrot

Do note that adventures usually have a goal of some sort to achieve, very rarely is wandering the goal rather than the means to that goal.
No user not all people are like you and enjoy being dicked around by vague instructions written up by a dude who was on acid. Only someone with single digit IQ takes enjoyment from following instructions like "walk west until you see Y big rock then turn westward" as some meaningful and deep experience.
The people in general whining about quest markers are usually the equivalent of a 5th grader going to uni math course and insisting everyone always do everything on paper and never use calculators. Someone with an incredibly narrow and limited view of the subject making broad statements and demands that ignore the facts of reality.

>the dev of Oaxaca originally expected players to learn to navigate via the stars
>later patched in a compass

based ruskie devs.

wow i can't remember the last time i saw so much wrong with one post
dumb zoomer

I spent hours in morrowind because of this, having to spend time prepping for a quest you have no idea how long or how far it may take you was painstaking but worth it.

So wat ur saying is you need handholding to play games

>the adventure is getting the chest, not looking for the chest and fighting the creatures that guard it
You're a slave to dopamine. You're not even adventuring in videogames, you're just trying to clean up those quest markers as fast as possible so you can jump to the next one.
>This open world is so big, so beautiful and so realistic omg
Yet you fags can't take your eyes off the minimap. All the world design goes to waste in games like The Witcher 3 or RDR since they are designed for you to auto-run through the roads until you can fast travel from point to point. The enviroments in those games are georgeous and realistic but not inmersive in the slightest since the player is not actually experiencing them. You're not having adventures. You're not exploring. You're not transported to another world. You're just clearing marks in your map and journal.

This. That's why even after spending ~50 hours in witcher 3 you still can't travel from one point to another without the map because you don't even get to commit environments to your memory because there is no need, incentive nor urge to do so.

GTA5 had the same issue, but core GTA5 gameplay was a lot more fun than Witcher 3. Don't get me wrong, TW3 is still an excellent top tier game but everything feels rushed in it, you keep jumping from one thing to another and there is this constant sense of being overwhelmed by options and checklists to clear, game implies and imposes upon you a pacing that is absolutely unnecessary.

These modern rpgs have more in common with collectathons of the past than with their genetic predecessor that were RPGs.

We need some type of auto mapping system. You start with a really crappy map that barely shows anything, maybe is even flat out wrong in some areas, and it gets filled in as you explore. Quest markers could be handled too, they'd be like circles in the general area. Unless you've explored that area already, then they'd be points.
Any games that have this?

>Automapping
Fuck no I want to play the game where the first instruction is that the player should buy graphing paper and pencils.

My solution was to just turn the HUD off and use the map in Witcher. Felt less like watching the minimap and more like a trip with some vague idea where I'm going.

The amount of attention put into the environment is seriously wasted by how the HUD is designed

Yes but the game is not DESIGNED for you to not use the minimap. Because you are likely to trigger 50 new quests before you get even remotely close to finishing whatever one you were originally trying to do.

It really isn't as simple as turning the HUD off after the fact. Sure you can play it but game becomes frustrating instead of fun and satisfying to figure out.

Yet you can't even manage to try a single counterpoint to anything anyone says. Literally all you are capable of doing is going
>hurr u dumb
That's the limit of you ability to discuss things.

user I take deep issue with your assertion that finding something is equally as fun as fighting a monster. It's the point that I'm trying to make "finding" things is never ever interesting if you are required to find it first place, which is exactly the issue quest markers solve.
This isn't about ticking off quest markers and looking at the minimap, never has and never will be. Nobody thinks not the people who want quest markers or the people making them.

You are arguing against an absurd strawman standpoint that has no relevance on reality that nobody supports, why?

>Because you are likely to trigger 50 new quests before you get even remotely close to finishing whatever one you were originally trying to do.
Which doesn't matter at all because the quests aren't timed, you can blitz missions or just do them piecemeal and read the journal to know where you were at when you left off, almost as if they were DESIGNED around the idea that the player will not do them in a single sitting?

>Because you are likely to trigger 50 new quests before you get even remotely close to finishing whatever one you were originally trying to do.

That is just as true for the likes of Morrowind as it is any modern game.

>Sure you can play it but game becomes frustrating instead of fun and satisfying to figure out.
Nah, not really. It would be if the map didn't load up instantly, but as it is, it is quite fun

Minimaps are a symptom of not being in the game. You have a lot more awareness of your surroundings IRL than you do from looking at a monitor. It's why people like third person shooters I think, you get some of that awareness back.
VR might fix it, so you can look forward to that.

>entire game takes place in a single town
>first game does mark where important people you need to talk to live
wow I'm convinced I now think as you do OP

But it's the lack of exploration that OP is complaining about. Not sure how pen and paper adds anything to that.

>it is quite fun

I don't think you understand what is it we are even talking about here.

Minimaps fucking kill me, I turn em off every fucking time. You end up just looking at the mini map instead of the game.

Just beat Judgement without the minimap but to be honest I know Kamurocho better then my home town.

It's kind of hamfisted game design though. If the map's too big, just make it smaller. Why are you hacking shit on top of the existing game, just to make up for the game's shortcomings? Design it good to begin with, idiot.

>"finding" things is never ever interesting if you are required to find it first place, which is exactly the issue quest markers solve.
So doing something isn't fun if it requires you to pay attention and do some effort?

Turn it off then you dumbfuck

There is no effort in it whatsoever.

What's the point of big world if you are going to make the experience linear as fuck and it's pretty much impossible to miss out on anything? There is no sense of wanderlust or exploration.

You are retarded and should refrain from expressing your opinions anywhere, let alone on Yea Forums

You absolute brainlet I literally mentioned fighting things in the same sentence. Or are you implying that there are no games in which combat requires you to pay attention or do some effort?
Please try to use those 3 brain cells you have.

Don't know why that's ironic. Nintendo knows their way around a game, better than some Poles who have made three games that are only half good at best.

AC Origins is pretty fun to just explore.

>No, you are not enjoying the experience! Can't you see!? This is tedium!

Fuck off

Some games just do the "I'm giving you the coordinates" thing and just expect you to follow the marker
Not all of them give out much info about the quest so you can do it without the marker

The Skyrim compass is officially outdated. I am excited to see who will be the first to innovate from it.

I was with you until you were a comfyfag
fuck off

Name a single open world game with quest markes where the combat system requires actual skill. Besides, exploration is a core element of adventures. Using your brain to find the way to your goal while fighting enemies is what makes it fun. The fact that you can only enjoy games through violence is quite sad.

>requires actual ski
Define "actual skill" first so we don't end up with you going
>nu-huh THAT doesn't count
until the thread gets archived

Also keep in mind your holy point of comparison is morrowind, the game in which you could brew yourself into have infinite in every stat at level 1 an utterly obliterating any challenge.

You just have shit taste, dont know better and are easily entertained

Is this Brigand: Oaxaca or something else?

Don't blame the game for being an impatient child that cannot deal with having the minimap turned off and projecting your neurosis onto others. I've played and enjoyed all of the games you consider sacred gems, and I also played and enjoyed a lot of modern games because I have the two braincelss neccessary to turn the handholding off and get lost in a brand new world

videogames are too big now so you need to appeal to the average non videogame playing customer and convenience is too much of a positive

That's the game I was talking about, yeah.

>Define "actual skill"
Let's say a game where you can't just equip the highest damage weapon you find and spam light attack until the enemy is dead.
>your holy point of comparison is morrowind
I've never mentioned Morrowind. I've play Morrowind once and had to unistall it. It is an outdated game. Keep in mind than I'm a fellow zoomer and my "holy point of comparison" would be Thief.

Exploration was never a goal for CDPR

There is literally no effort. Having a map marker but no compass is arguably better, as you know the final destination but no compass and no minimap make you pay attention to the environment on the way there. A guy telling you to go right after the bridge then left changes absolutely nothing.

Games without map markers were annoying tbqh.
Open world vidya should build on BotW, have markers placed by yourself using line of sight, make your target visually distinctive and give the player some vantage points to look around.

>Let's say a game where you can't just equip the highest damage weapon you find and spam light attack until the enemy is dead.
The most casual of them all that started all this. Skyrim. Go start a new character, equip the highest damage weapon you can find and run up to the giants and light attack away. Report back when you are ready to admit that some planning is needed.
>would be Thief.
Which isn't an open world game by any stretch, it has open levels but it is very clearly not in the same genre as GTA/Witcher/far cry your current arugment is basically
>why aren't modern open world games designed the way old level based games are?
The need for objective markers is lessened quite a bit by having concrete levels with specific entry and exit points.

Who's the retard that has a map and, when asking for directions, doesn't ask the person to show them on said map?

You prefer mindless, effortless journey where you just tilt the stick up and don't have to think about anything whatsoever.
I prefer having to deduct solutions from the scarce clues that game presents to me, process that requires a bit of thinking and occasionally getting sidetracked/lost, but ultimatively providing far more memorable experience.

You are in it just for the destination, I bet you also have some kind of nigger faggot backlog and are stressed with crossing the titles off as fast as possible. It's nigh impossible to be rational when talking to you, you are simply a zoomer casual and you can't be helped because, like I already stated, you simply don't know any better. I could care less about the "classic titles" that you've watched your favorite streamer play on twitch. Your opinions are shit and you should feel bad about yourself.

You sure are putting a lot of value on being able to follow simple instructions on how to move. Did your mom send you out to get milk often and you are still proud about it? Can't think of any other way someone might enjoy "Walk East 200 meters then turn right at the crossroad and follow it to the big rock" as some kind of cerebral challenge

>YOU SOULLESS
>ME SOUL

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>Climb a tower
>Map doesn't just automatically populate with markers
>Have to just look at the horizon and check off things that look interesting
It's a shame most interesting things were pretty shallow though

The next level is to not even have a log with the dialogue and quest. Force the player to pen and paper everything.

I agree but you need amazing map making skills, rather than just throw a million trillion miles of terragen terrain at someone and call it "big".

Two of my favourite games I played recently had no minimap at all. Subnautica & Dark Souls. Subnautica just tosses you at a world and tells you deal with it, yet gives you the tools to create your own markers. (beacons). Yet rarely you did get objective pointers as well for a few specific story thing, but justified under the pre-text that coordinates for this specific thing have been beamed to you. I think it was the best mix. Whilst Dark Souls basically landmark centrale. I have never felt lost in Dark Souls for a microsecond.

On the other hand, I can't image how games like Just Cause 2 would work without markers since everything looks a bit same-y.

Just fucking to outside.

That's a lot of projection considering I never said any of these

>hurr you have a backlog durr you are addicted to doing shit as fast as possible
No. Literally the opposite of that. Again, stop projecting your neuroses onto others

>more shit opinions

Cope, zoomer

>comfy
Zoomer detected. You don't know shit about exploration.

Bethesda games (and games in general) have garbage writing. It's not worth reading.

Markers are the consequence of shit writing, level design and ability to give directions.

Generalizations killed exploration.

one of the reasons people love the souls games so much is that they dont have any maps or arrows telling you where to go

how do you feel about fast travel from limited points?

like the caravans in skyrim, or whatever.

reminder actually marking your map and not going off the vague directions of some retard npc is superior

>much bigger
Lmao, never heard of Daggerfall ?

You know what? That's exactly what Assassin's Creed 1 was about. The entire game is designed around being played without a hud and map and you were supposed to orient yourself via dialogue and observing the environment.
sadly the playtesters were retarded and thus neither the game nor the marketing material ever mentions that. on top of that the sequels dropped that entire aspect too, instead turning into generic trash

Vanila Skyrim? The only planning you need is decide on wich weapon to use. Unless you're playing in the higher difficulties, you just need to spam mouse 1 until the enemies are dead. And that's without taking magic into account.
>The need for objective markers is lessened quite a bit by having concrete levels with specific entry and exit points
But most of the space in open world games is completely useless since you have a quest mark and a nice path in your minimap to follow. At this point, is it really worth it to make such a big world map? If you take out the marks and the GPS, the devs will have to put more effort in the details of the entire world , making an actual open world game where you can find yourself just by looking around you instead of constantly looking at the minimap and every area has value instead of being there to look nice and fuck up your processor.
Obviously, I'd rather have a small area with good level design than an empty open world where I mindlessly follow a quest mark because there is no incentive to get out of the marked path. So yes, my problem would be with open world games rather than quest marks, but I understand quest marks as enablers of this open world trend. They make it seem like these games are well crafted and engaging when they are not.

>Vanila Skyrim? The only planning you need is decide on wich weapon to use.
Read the rest of the sentence, I specified exactly what enemy type you should go up against. Since you couldn't make it 1 and a half sentences I'll do the same liberty of ignoring whatever your attempt at moving goal posts was and go back to the point at hand.

Can you or can you not start Skyrim, grab the highest damage weapon you can find and kill every enemy you find with no planning or skill involved other than spamming M1?
The answer is no, if you don't believe me then the fastest test is to try to kill giants at level 1 with just mindless sword spam.

Do you disagree with my assertion that level 1 skyrim characters can't left click spam giants to death?
Or do you concede that your original argument for what "skill" is was is too broad to actually define anything?

>Or do you concede that your original argument for what "skill" is was is too broad to actually define anything?
I intened it to be broad since finding game expamples of great combat doesn't make the conversation move forward. If you want us both to go full autistic, let's say that giants are not technically enemies and my point still stands.
Anyhow, Skyrim is universally known for its simplistic combat. I stated the rest of my argument in the post above. If you care to move on from this retarded topic, go ahead and read it.

It still is bad

>Anyhow, Skyrim is universally known for its simplistic combat.
Which is exactly why I brought it up, skyrim is infamous for its simplistic combat yet even in that game the giants are infamous for sending everyone to the moon in a single swing, even the most known simplistic game isn't simplistic enough.
There is no open world game where the lack of skill you described would ever let you beat them, there are no games that simple. This is like the 4th time but dude, can you stop exaggerating everything the the point of meaninglessness?
Nothing you say carries any value if every other line is something so comically absurd that it's not relevant to anything

That just means instead of wasting 5-10 minutes looking for shit, you get to waste even more time. And since walking without an exact destination is something you apparently enjoy for some autistic reason, this is a great win you.