Calling all of the wise souls of Yea Forums: should the rest of the world follow suit to South Australia and ban Hero...

MOES HAD

There isn't a single way you can quantify that Hero's RNG affects more matches than Game and Watch/Peach's RNG so a ban makes no sense unless you also ban Peach/Game and Watch. If the argument is that RNG is inherently "uncompetitive" then you can't argue with the above. If your argument is that his RNG will sway an unreasonable number of matches compared to the above then you need to prove it.

Anyone that tries to argue with this invariably resorts to special pleading and "but it's different" for reasons that aren't related to why they claim RNG is a problem.

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The only thing I would change is the critical hit.
His down b is basically a glass cannon. You get good moves but if you use up all of your mana you virtually have no way to get back on the stage. The only thing I can see the devs changing here is to make some spells cost more

they should go further and ban competative smash

if only faust could roll dragon install and instant kills

As someone who has reached Elite status and played against and with Hero I can tell you that on average RNG does not factor in winning games. While there are situations were it can help you gotta remember that again on average it wont help you win. There wont be a single shitter winning a serious tournament due to RNG. Will there be games won by a crit? Probably but not on average. Hero has big issues for him to be top tier and the RNG is what makes him not be bottom tier. As long as you are aware of what he can do and not let him set up he is a non issue for any serious player. Cucks like South Australian shitters or someone who is trying to keep himself relevant like Leffen are just being bitches. Actual top Smash Ultimate players will simply adapt to him. Brawl Metal Knight and Smash 4 Bayo were much more degenerate.

>Nerf hero! He's too strong!
meanwhile Joker gets 100% Arsene meter refilled if he counters a smash attack and in competitive smash a good Joker player is in Arsene mode over 75% of the match due to knowing how to fill up the meter as fast as possible

Most people I've seen play Hero don't even use the spells. Sure once in a while you can get an instakill out of Thwack and make your friends mad but using it is way too slow and unreliable.

The reason is that Hero's down B is hard to pull against people who actually know how to play. The best way to do it is to be far and quickly scan but nobody should be giving hero time to do that.

I've got Hero in Elite too and still play him regularly, and I can tell you that rogue Magic Bursts on off stage opponents got me early stocks in more than half of my matches.

He can convert Gold Hammer into Instant Kill

>Other than the language issue Hero is not good enough to warrant a ban.
Name one language important tournaments are played in that are not in English or Japanese.
Even Smash Factor 8, which takes place in Mexico, was played in English and had English-speaking commentators.

What’s the kill chance of whack?
I only once killed a yoshi at 2-10%
But every other time I used it it hit but didn’t kill.

>HEROES MAD

>HEROES MAD

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Calling wise souls? Calling what I try to achieve : I'd say wait for the inevitable patches & endure meanwhile (learn the counterstrats).

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Nobody really knows, supposedly it's 1% at 0/0 and goes up as both players take damage.

just yeet hocus pocus out and I think he should be legal

crit rng + down b rng + hocus pocus rng + language barrier = yeah ban is fine

I mean, I won't fight for a ban because he's not gonna ruin the game (like sm4sh bayo or something) but he's pretty fucking stupid

>1%
Holy shit that yoshi must of been pissed. It was the last of a semifinal for an online tournament

No. He has literally no results of note.

people aren't arguing for a ban because he's OP, but because he's degenerate

>south australia
I didn't know kangaroos played smash

He said it's not the language thing either. Learn how to read.

Joker is Ultimate's Jigglypuff, with one single dude making him look good while everyone else who tries him chokes in the pools.

not your personal army

The language barrier can be a good thing as it can make smash players pick up a side hobby to learn basic terms of other languages for both the Japanese and the English. It’ll be better than playing smash all day and shitting your pants.

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>STOP BEING SO GOOD AT MICROING YOUR MENU WAHHH
>ILL BAN YOU SO I CAN WIN AGAIN
t. smashfags

Name a single good character in this game that doesn't have something degenerate/cheesy about them

based off random shit? very few actually

You can’t be comparing G&W and peach to hero right? This is a joke, right?

You're right, Peach can safely pull far more turnips in a typical match than Hero can cast spells and G&W has a reliable throw setup for his 1/8 instant kill gamble. Not really fair to compare that cheese to Hero's 1/20 thwack kills.

No. A pretty fun and objectively solid mid-tier character shouldn’t be banned because “““professional””” and casual shitters can’t adapt.

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This whole thread reminds me of Leffen's silly "delete from Smash" list that ultimately ended up including everyone who wasn't a fast-falling, fast-moving, braindead combo machine.

I notice nobody responded to this.
I'll make sure to remind people about this every single thread until they have an answer for it.

He made a delete from smash list?

>People bringing up this language bullshit since they've been told to fuck off with their other straw grasping nonsense.
This is getting sad.

In one of his stream rants, yeah. He later claimed it was a joke, but as usual for him, you can't tell whether he really was joking or being salty.

>competitive player
>can't adapt to opponent

If Enrique who lives in the favela can't jump the fence to play Smash in America and understand Hero's moves he's clearly not cut out for competitive play.

>Leffen's silly "delete from Smash"
I’m not really into the pro-Smash scene because I’m of the belief that it’s for smelly, unwashed autists, but why the fuck is this Leffen guy always calling for bans/cuts? Wasn’t he also spewing bullshit pre-launch too?

>all abilities can be countered by knowledge of his moveset
>crits only apply to attacks that have a massive windup
there is zero reason to ban

This, he just has mini-DORIYAHs that are just as telegraphed and whiff 3/4 of the time.

Rosterfaggotry is real even in the comp scene unfortunately.

The comp fags don't care how good he is, he could be the worst character in the game and they argue he should still be banned cause of RNG

We know they have autism, we're mocking them.

>People in their 30s who play a children’s party game are retarded
Imagine my shock

I think he deserves further testing, and I also think in the end, those who actually play competitions should have the clout in the decision, not whiny spectators on Yea Forums or elsewhere.

I think he's fine, he's busted in some areas but I don't feel any more than some other characters. Some of the RNG is absolutely disgusting, but the other player can still watch that menu if the Hero isn't just being a high-roller with it. My biggest problem honestly is his neutral B, it's so easy to punish with it and it kills at like 60% in fucking doubles. But I have more trouble with characters like Ike and Yoshi anyway.

It is absolutely quantifiable. Even Peach's Saturns and stitch-faces aren't as powerful as Hero's moves, and Bob-ombs are ultra rare. G&W has only a single OHKO that's very short-range. Meanwhile, Hero's smashes have a 1/8 chance of critting, which will kill people at 30% and will always result in a meaty blow, unlike G&W. Thwack is gigantic and fast, and has a very high chance of working at high percents. And many of his moves reliably kill in the 45-60% range without having to be slow or without range like Dorf.

I think there's ways around it, but the RNG mechanics of other characters have nothing on Hero.

He only ever says he's "joking" so if people try to argue him or call him out on what he's saying he has something to defer to.

Last week he said he didn't actually care about his beef with salem to pre-john in case he lost. Then of course once he won he actually cared.

Peach has less than 3% of getting an above average turnip, that includes Bombs, Stitches and Saturn.
Meanwhile hero has like 30% to get a projectile and like 80% of getting a move that doesnt suck, you cant compare Hero RNG with Peach RNG.
G&W RNG isn't game changing because is not easy to hit, requires an specific setup AND when you hit you need the RNG.
Meanwhile Hero has crits on his smashes AND his down b has more uses than G&W side b.

Leffen is a troll and anyone who takes him seriously is a stupid cunt.

So his thousands of subs?

I'm pretty sure antagonism and contrarianism is just Leffen's thing, right? He's like a villain or a heel, I always kinda liked that.

You quantified the probabilities of the events, not which will actually change the outcome of more matches.

objectively wrong, people have labbed this shit to hell and back
even if you perfectly react to the menu with like a shield or a jump, hero can simply cancel the menu and get a free grab on you

nevermind the fact that a bunch of the proposed "counterplay" is stuff like "JUST DONT GET HIT LOL"

leffen is tsundere for ultimate so he has to say everything about the game sucks

>counter magic burst at the ledge which kills as early as 40%.
>counter magic burst when you are close to hero
>counter rng move Twack at the ledge where is unavoidable and can potentially kill you
>every other character has normal smashes that kill at 90%+ with the exception of heavies, but is okay that hero kills at 30% randomly and even earlier with buffs.

It's 1/10 for him to pull it, actually, at best. Likely higher, more like 1/8, because Hocus Pocus is rarer and Heal loses priority as it's used.
The real question is what your percentage chance of a 0% Thwack/Whack is.

Why is the concept of RNG such a problem in the first place?

>not a wise soul
>still voted
SOMEBODY STOP ME

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>get a free grab on you
Lmao, not with that shitty hitbox

As if I care what some Lancels do. It's dumb and probably the result of them being unable to handle the legend himself, but whatever. I'll keep enjoying my main all the same. Shame for the spectators, though. All 4 of them are going to miss out on a good show.

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dont need to be a great grab if your opponent has to dance around in circles trying to counter any of your possible random moves

But they actually change the outcome of more matches???????????
Almost every move hero has in his Down B is good and can actually decide the outcome of the battle.
You got a projectile? like 20+% damage when you hit , they come in frame 6 and travel almost all of the stage.
You got a buff? Use it, every buff is good.

Hero's Down B changes the outcome of more matches than Peach turnips or G&W Side B.

No semi-major, major, or super major will recognize a character ban. Aussie shitposters can stay btfo.

They are only hurting themselves by not getting experience against the character for when they play in tournaments that actually matter.

>what is metaknight
>what is bayo

also we're living in a world where wobbling is banned again and fiction's meme idea makes it into tournaments, anything is possible

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Yes, if only to piss off Herofags. Bantards are being retards but Herofags only doubled down on acting like incredibly obnoxious faggots in response.

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Hero's grab is far from great, in fact it's far from decent, you will hardly get a "free grab" with a good read, let alone opening the menu randomly. Thinking you are untouchable because you opened the menu and can cancel it it's retarded as fuck, you will only get to have you opponent doing pressure on you, secialy if it's a rushdown character, or said character can do decent shield damage or has a good projectile.

Reasons to ban Hero

Exhibit A: twitter.com/PuppehSSB/status/1162683639282450433

Exhibit B: twitter.com/PuppehSSB/status/1162688644186038273

Exhibit C: twitter.com/MVD731/status/1162699306819825664

Pretty much this. Top tier characters in Ultimate can easily deal with Hero. Some people are being fags over the RNG. Again until we see Hero consistently winning due to RNG I dont think talks of ban should even be on the table. Retards like Leffen saying that Hero is worse than items make it even harder to have serious discussions.

All I see are players making mistakes. Hero is the kind of character you cant give him a chance.

That's a dumb argument. He's clearly not broken, so why is his RNG okay if he's not a good character?
Like, do you see how those are unrelated things? Dumb random mechanics aren't suddenly okay because they're on a shit character?

No, just because the Smash tryhards are a bunch of pussies who can't handle a character having an element of randomness to their kit doesn't mean Hero deserves a ban.
Banning him just shows that people who take Smash seriously can't do so without taking everything they can't deal with out.
They need their comfort zone to play with zero deviation and anyone with any kind of bizzare niche has to be nerfed into the ground and be useless to stop the endless flow of tears.

>just play perfectly lol
It's been like 20 years and people still defend wobbling with "just dont get grabbed lol", dont go down that road

I see nothing here telling me which character wins more matches off luck.

Wobbling wasn’t OP and was only banned because melee comp scene needs twitch kiddy shekles, shouldn’t have been banned in the first place.

No, don't ban Hero, just learn how to fight against him
I admit Smash can be kinda luck based with its jank hitboxes for some characters and other little variable. but at some point you got realized that sometimes it isn't rng or bad luck why you lost, sometimes you just get outplayed and have to accepted
Banning Hero is like saying anyone who wins with him is pure rng and no skill, something a sore loser would say

it doesn't matter whether it's OP or not, it's fucking stupid
and at the end of the day, there are no god given commands on how you should play the game, rules are a collaborative community effort
and if everyone agrees something is fucking stupid, then it's fucking stupid

and before you start, no, this does not equal some "the brawl club" tier scenario with completely retarded rules

some moves hero has, are better than others.

ABLUU ABLUH BUT THWHACK INSTANT KILL WAAAAAHHH NERF HIM AND BAN HIM AND DELETE HIM FROM THE GAME MOMMY I CAN'T HANDLE NOT SPAMMING THE SHIELD BUTTON AND MICRODASHING INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YEAR LONG OPENINGS

*edgeguards u with magic burst

>learn how to play against bayonneta, PEOPLE NEED TO ADAPT, SHE'S NOT THAT BAD.
*kills smash 4 competitive scene*

Yes
DQ-kun's slot machine gameplay is a fucking atrocity that shouldn't be allowed in a competitive match, even if he's objectively the worst character in the game.
If he keeps getting banned, then nintendo might patch him and rework is RNG gameplay and actually make him fun to play.

>Ignores that Hero player was already up a stock and the Woomy jumped right into the attack instead of going for the ledge.

I'm not really for it but I'm not really opposed to it.

>Exhibit A
Didn’t dodge the moment the Meme Menu appeared just the be safe

>Exhibit B
Went for the classic Stinkling play of going for grabs and hoping for the best instead of dodging. Also took the unnecessary risk of getting hit by psyche-up + slow ass smash attack

>Exhibit C
Didn’t switch to Charizard the moment the hero turned giant and thought he could somehow survive as feather-weight Squirtle. Also, didn’t dodge out of the way the moment the meme menu appeared.

This is literally Brawl club shit though lol. Any other fighting game community wouldn’t even consider talking about a ban they’d just say “oh yeah that guy is janky and a lot of risk assessment”

>he can edgeguard you with magic burst and get a guaranteed kill
excuse me but that shit only applies to when he has a full 100 mana
why not just pick him up and throw him off the stage so that he deletes 20 mana just to save himself because his jumps are fucking terrible?

>just play perfectly lol
This is how you beat characters like Smash 4 Bayo, yes. At least this time the 0-to-death has a high chance of failure.

any other fighting game dont get characters this random

what the fuck just dont get hit lol hero sucks
just shield thwack/magic burst midair

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Here are the only broken things about Hero.
>Crits on shields are retarded and randomly turn Hero fucking up into a free Smash attack and likely KO, if he's buffed it can shield break a full shield. It's objectively rewarding Hero players for making a mistake. And means that anytime Hero has Psych Up or Oomph you MUST keep away despite your shield working 7/8 times, giving Hero control of the match over a hypothetical situation that will only play out a minority of the time.
>Kaboom is way to good, nerf one of the following: Travel speed, explosion radius, or kill power.
>Language Barrier in international tournaments

First 2 are pretty easy changes that I genuinely believe are coming. Third might never be fixed and in the rare occasion that it comes up it will suck balls to deal with. I feel like there's three good options
1. Allow the player who doesn't speak the tourney's native language (IE, Japs at EVO) to block their opponent from picking Hero if they so choose.
2. Allow Hero's opponent to pick their native language in the settings, putting the ball in the Hero main's of Smash Bros court to learn the spells in multiple languages.
3. In the case of Hero dittos with two people that speak different languages, a random language that neither speak is chosen
The burden of learning all the spell names in different languages should 100% fall to the Hero player and never any of his opponents, that much I'm sure of.

Supposedly they do. You already have a guy that can fish for kills at 20% off a throw anyway.

WAAAHHHH MOMMY MOMMY HE USED UP HIS ONLY RESOURCE TO EDGEGUARD THERE'S NO WAY I CAN POSSIBLY NOT EAT SHIT TO IT AND PUNISH HIM FOR IT MAKE THE MAGIC BURST ONLY TAKE UP HIS HITBOX WORTH OF SPACE AND DO 1% DAMAGE PLEASE HE'S BROKEEEENNN

Crit on shield doesn’t do extra damage, psych up+oomph f smash just breaks shields in one hit regardless of crit.

this but unironically

this, taking any damage cancels magic burst and still eats all of his mana, it's pretty fucking dumb

You can actually air dodge thwack, though.

It's a meme move in the games too, you only use if it you're gonna die no matter what anyway.

What did Hero do to Leffen?

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Based.
Also, jumping up and using a fully charged Up+B to block the ledge and even ricochet them off the side is a more efficient means of ledge guarding anyways.

Exist

people making retarded arguments defending his rng triggered his autism
reading this thread I cant blame him

Neither of those character were ever officially banned. Just like Hero, they were banned by literal whos. I don't understand what's with the casual audience pretending to be knowledgable of the competitive scene they claim to hate so much.

>and if everyone agrees something is fucking stupid
Seems split down the middle, chief.
Sorry.

He's already fun. Did you just want Bootleg Robin so you could bitch "muh anime swordsman"?
They make the Hero play actually unique in the roster and people cry that he's too weird for them because of the element of RNG oh no how awful I was hoping for another Press Down-B to counter character I could then shittalk while begging for Geno in Rosterfag threads or some shit.

>Retarded arguments

“Yeah I know we already have RNG in Smash but we need to ban this specific character without even testing them because somebody might get good”

Don’t you have to be seething over not being able to get 3/4 of the roster removed, Leffen?

esports are cancer. Who gives a shit.

actually MK was universally banned for two of them in doubles

He’s scared that he’ll be exposed for being shit because he can’t adapt to the play style of a character that stands still and scrolls through a menu.

you know he beat salem's hero in one of the most prominent matches at smashcon right

Hero is good but he's not broken or overpowered. Just buff up some of the shittier characters like Little Mac.

His Side-B, Up-B and Neutral B are all pretty good charge moves from my experience with them. The menu isn't even his strongest thing but because it's randomized that's what people bitch about.

I honestly voted yes to be contrarian. I hate whatever Yea Forums likes and vice versa.

What about removing his fucking critical hit and improve his fucking down-B? The hero's design is perfect, the problem is the fucking execution.
Increase the number of commands from 4 to something like 6 and make them fixed every game. Balance the MP of skills like heal to compensate for the fixed menus.
There, he's now fucking fun to play because you can actually train yourself to use the menu to its fullest instead of getting fucked by RNG most of the time

Leffen's secretly a KHfag, and he's mad salty Square chose DQ instead.
Also he's bad & afraid he'll be exposed by Sword & Watch after Ivysaur got hard nerfed.

Little Mac is probably the only character on the roster that needs a complete rework, his design is just so ass.

Same. I can rape hero with bowser. I'm honestly indifferent

No, certain regions can decide for themselves if they want to ban a fighter. In the end, that's all that really matters since conpetitive players will 90% of the time go against someone else in their region unless they are a top tier player.

Of course he doesn't. He doesn't know shit about dick. These threads have been a great breeding ground for winning extremely easy arguments. Not that I'm in favor of banning Hero, Leffen's a fag. It's just that the casuals here take this as an opportunity to talk completely out their asses then act proud that they're retarded after they get btfo.

>6
That's unwieldy, and it's 4 because the Command Menu is traditionally four options.

Today I learned that Smashfags have a huge superiority complex.

Did the text on the screen studder your stupid fuck?

>e-sportsfag thinks he knows what he’s talking about because he watches “pros” play a kids game
Hoes are, in fact, mad

nanigaderukana?

Not him but it's true
People that can't talk about any sort of game at a mechanical/deep level usually plague Yea Forums of all places and especially come out of the woodworks to tell you that your favorite game has no depth. I'm not much of a Smash player but people straight up have told me shit like CS is not a team oriented game. Also this is pure Leffen style, he has always been a whiny bitch.

It already takes long enough navigating the four random options, the randomization means the menu is unreliable so that on top of how long it takes unless you gamble your life with mashing because it could always be the suicide button or an unfortunate Hocus Pocus on the top. On the flip side, his other B spells are fairly strong when charged up and reliable but to fully charge them also eats more MP than spitting them out raw. Hero's RNG and how slow it takes for his A buttons and menu navigation balance him out for the ridiculous variety of spells he can use. The only thing I could say is reasonable is not having critical hits work on shields but he's built in such a way that he can be dealt with if you actually bothered to try instead of crying about his RNG and demanding it be removed.
Slow A Buttons so if you get hit by a crit, it's usually because you whiffed a few too many times.
Menu navigation so his variety of spells takes time to actually find and get out or puts him at risk of killing himself or blowing all his MP in a bad spot
His B spells all being fairly strong when charged but requiring both that charge time AND a large amount of MP for charging them

The Hero isn't the issue, it's people who can't deal with working around his design decisions.

>and was only banned because melee comp scene needs twitch kiddy shekles
Based. Wobbling is boring AF to watch so I'm glad the Ice Grapplers are gone.

No you don't ban him, let players get booed out by chanting cunts.

>DLC ruining Smash's comp scene once more
Delightful

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Then make the commands fixed instead of that RNG shit for fucks sake. Whenever I play a dragon quest game, I don't spend 10 minutes searching for a certain a spell because they're always in the same place in the menu.

So when are they gonna ban Peach?

imagine a scenario where you're good enough to be considered one of the top players and you take on the world, but you have ill practice against a character because a region ban prevented you from getting good from it. lol

when turnip rng matters

I've literally lost a match before because peach pulled a bomb

Hey, I know.
I'm just talking about how user is jerking himself off.

Language barrier is the only issue.

It matters a shitload stitches are murder.

>counter rng move Twack at the ledge where is unavoidable and can potentially kill you
Lol just dodge or reflect it

I think Smash tournament players should take showers

>can LITERALLY pull items
How does this not matter?

How about we just ban competitive Smash instead and solve all of the problems?

>those who actually play competitions should have the clout in the decision
>unironically wanting leffen to get involved in the decision

1. Because the chance to pull a non-turnip is incredibly low (

>Aussies can't deal with the shitopst that is Hero.
Always knew you guys couldn't take what you dished out.

Smash bros you need to get in here NOW

discord.gg/N25dFQ4

discord.gg/N25dFQ4

discord.gg/N25dFQ4

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He can easily dashgrab, nobody said he had to stand still.

But I thought it doesnt matter how good it is just the fact that its rng? seems to be a bit of bias here :^)

>twitter.com/Samsora_/status/1160783662755061760
>opponent makes peach kill herself.

Funny how the argument is so flexible.

I fully admit to jerking myself off. That being said, I love casual Smash to death, that's what I play, I'm no pro. I'd never look down on anyone for their preference of play. I just look down on others who look down on others.

I didn't say anything about how good things are. I said the randomness only plays a factor rarely and when it does, it has a low impact.
Hero's RNG is very frequent and has huge variance, the differences in possibles spells and how they play out in any given matchup are gigantic.

Leffen has a history of being a complete trash human being, his image might have gotten better as he's grown a little older but there's no reason to assume him above getting salty about irrelevant shit.

I'm not talking about you but the reason for the ban, but anyway a mr. Saturn, bomb or stitch face can very much change the course of a match.

Does he still key peoples cars

Actually no, they don't.
Bomb-ombs are frequently discarded because they're a risk and stiches as well as saturns are used in the exact same way as regular turnips, they just do more (shield) damage. In fact, most pulls, special are not, are just thrown out to zone and dont actually hit anything. It is very rare that an unusual pull is actually match-changing.

Magic Burst has more range, more damage and LAST much longer than ANY of peach's turnip pull, including Bombs, not to mention it has higher chance of happening.

When even semi respectable players like MVD respond to criticism with joke answers like repeating what the other guy typed in a sillier manner, you can be sure that the entire community is under some sort of mass psychosis. Whatever the fuck happened to learning character matchups, did people just quit on that front entirely after the first few months' 'top tier chars' were figured out?

Too bad they pretty much never happen, while Hero is pretty much guaranteed to pull Magic Burst at least once every match.

Smash community already had 2 "learn to adapt" characters in a row. is not going to happen a third time.

When is M2K coming out of his cave to yell at these idiots again? Nothing really happened last time when he spoke out for a more diverse stage list but at least it gave me solace that there's still at least one 'famous' player who actually knows what competitive Smash should be about.

Link has a pretty good matchup against him so I dont care either way

A bunch of top players want a bigger stagelist, the problem is TOs don't really care.
dunno who tweeted it a couple of days ago but basically, not a single top player has been approached by TOs regarding rulesets or stagelists

I don't want to throw them under the bus and say it's a lack of effort, but I don't know, there's definately something asmiss.

No you fucking autist.

I don't think he should be banned, it's way too soon to make a judgement.
Hero's smash attacks are comparable to Marth/Ganondorf. Both can kill at incredibly low% in the right conditions (Tippers / Ledge), so I don't really see a problem with crits.
Hocus Pocus will most of the time be nothing special, with a low chance to either actually do something especially harmful/helpful, so I don't imagine that move being relied on to get starman/mushroom.
Magic Burst is the most suspect move, but at most I'd just beg for a nerf for knockback.
I wouldn't campaign to ban something unless he becomes a centralizing character in the meta and the game devolves into "Either pick Hero or pick the character that has the best chances with Hero"

If they didn't ban Bayo in Smash 4, I don't see a reason to ban Hero in Ultimate.

fuck off smashbrains

Yes they should ban him. He can win matches based on luck of the draw, which other characters can't do.

Why the fuck do people still tolerate Leffen? How has he not been ostracised by the community? He constantly spout shitty opinions, starts drama and instigates beef with players who don't follow in line and is constantly joining whenever games don't go his way.
He's an insufferable cunt.

I feel like Mr. Game & Watch can. Not to the extent of Hero though. What's the RNG with Hero again? His f-smash, right?

you get to talk shit if you can back it up with results senpai

1. random crits
2. random spells
3. one of his spells, hocus pocus, has random effects

God that match fucking infuriated me so much. Is this what Smash Ultimate has come to? Spamming as much fucking shit as you can in order to beat out even more spam. Just look at this shit. youtube.com/watch?v=Jiy88Cfk9Qg
Shit like this makes me want to unironically legalize Wario Ware and Castle Siege.

to be fair that's just snake, he's a projectile spammer
ivy can projectile camp, but it's not nearly as effective as switching through mons and getting up close, he just had to do it this match to contest snake

Shit mentality. No wonder the community is such a mess. And not really relevant considering he's bad at ultimate.

Cause most smashfags are braindead.
In Melee sure, but in Ultimate? Leffen has pretty much no results as to be comparable with any of the top players.

>shit mentality
that's literally the universal fighting game mentality

>dashgrabbing out of his downB
Bruh, even if you could his dashgrab isn't much better, in fact it's 3 frames slower

Attached: Hero grab.png (1012x408, 268K)

>he's a projectile spammer
Yeah he has a strong projectile game, but he Snake is capable of so much more. It's like some Smash Ultimate players put in as much effort as they possibly can into not actually playing the game.

If Bayo was allowed to rape the scene for years unopposed no way is Hero getting banned

I'd rank leffen as like a top 50 player
like, far from actually contesting, but definately relevant enough to not be disregarded

mobile.twitter.com/anti/status/1163185544773492737?s=21
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ANTI-BANFAGS BTFO

>just play perfectly, you deserve to die at 0 for a single mistake because your opponent just got lucky

how did metal slash insta kill lucina

Holy fuck you Smashfags have really fallen from grace. Remember when everyone would brutally shit on competitivefags back in the day? Cause I sure as fuck can see why the FGC fucking mocks these fucking children. You clowns have completely forgot that SMASH IS NOT A FUCKING FIGHTING GAME.

Attached: 1531962646141.jpg (409x618, 58K)

no wonder the FGC is so shit

The enemy Hero got a critical hit which pushed her into her ally's Hero's Thwack. Thwack is what killed her, not Metal Slash.

That was a friendly fire actually

>learn hiragana and katakana
>still can't read shit unless you memorize thousands of kanji
fucking retarded language

>wanting to ban Hero because some dude kkilled his patner in doubles for spamming DownB
I don't get it

It's actually wanting to ban a character that can kill people at 0 just for being lucky.

twitter.com/rishissb/status/1162992138436698112

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I don't really main him so it really doesn't matter. but in my opinion i don't think Hero is worth the ban.

He can kill himself at 0 just for being unlucky too

No you can't, you willingly choose to use Kamikazee.

How much damage does Kamikazee do again? An unblockable 60% in a large AOE around him? That's not as bad as you're making it seem. If using Whack/Thwack also deals 60% to Hero, I'd say it's fair. But it doesn't.

>spam downB as soon as match starts and select kamikaze,, kamikaze your way with hocus pocus or thwack your patner
>but that doesn't count tho

The player read the Thwack command though.

t. am able to read the whole menu with a glance

My stance is this: If you are going to allow Hero in competitive matches, allow items as well. If not, ban Hero

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or hocus pocus

So he choose to thwack his ally willingly?

No

Stop being a crybaby and learn to adapt, literally any Heavy with good reach and super armor counters Hero

To clarify the reason I think this is that if a character's core gimmick (their special button) is entirely RNG based, the way to make it fair is to allow RNG advantage to everyone playing . Other fighting games have characters with random shit like Hero but those games do not have the items mechanic that Smash does so its never an option to incorporate it.

Since Smash already has items that can be turned on or off, the balance for this game should be to just allow items too

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You can play around Hero's RNG, you can't play around the game spawning a bob-omb in front of your attack.
Melee should unironically have pokeballs only on very low

Why on earth would a character who brings zero issues to the game be banned?
No one gives a shit about Australia.

I have never seen a character cause as much butt hurt as Hero has
Pre reveal/leaks
>they will never show off a DQ character at a western event, no one knows what that franchise is
>they won't put in Erdrick over Geno or Sora
>There are too many companies involved to get him, you think they can get permission from SE who gave nothing with FF, Toriyama and Sugiyama?
Reveal
>wow another generic anime swordsman
>wtf where is BAAAAANJOOOO
>nooooo Sora
Release
>he's too random, ban him
>i can't read moonrunes despite the fact I have never fought a Japanese player ever, ban him!
>he has instaskill moves, ban him!
Hero makes the Smash community so mad, I fucking love him.

I like him and am mad they are rallying behind some eceleb trying to get the community to see him as “not a real character”.

I'm equally as pissed abt whack/thwack as when a GnW cheeses out a stock with a 9

As if some losers who's retard opinion in a game he sucks at is relevant at all.
Leffen is a laughing stock.

Don't those bombs fall from the sky instead of materializing in front of you? I don't think there's anything besides charged smash attacks and maybe jabs which you could cancel that would go on longer than the time it takes to actually get in your hitbox

No, it just so happens that his ally was thrown right into the hitbox.

I haven't looked into it. Why does that one black spell he uses just fucking kill you sometimes? How does that shit work? I died at like 50% once and for what reason

He has way too fucking much. It's bullshit. All these Spells plus Crits. And why? Other RPG characters in Smash have crits in their games but they don't get this buff. Fucking nepotistic nips

>any Heavy with good reach
So, none of them?

>Donkey kong
>Bowser

They spawn above the ground slightly above the tallest player models
So if you say, input an upsmash, and one spawns on the same frame you input it, it will fall into your attack and kill you if you're at a medium % or at the very least deal a ton of damage and put you into an unfavorable position. It's even worse if you're playing as a character with slower attacks or lingering hitboxes. This isn't even getting into the issues of many items that are essentially just instant kills like Galaga or items that are useless in certain matches but basically instant kills in others like the franklin badge
Hero's RNG in comparison requires both players to learn, adapt, and react to a set of predictable RNG. For example you can play around Magic Burst even if the Hero player just does a hail mary and spams select after opening the menu without reading and gets lucky by just assuming every time the menu is opened above 80 MP that Magic Burst will be used. You always know what he can do at all times and know what to expect. It adds depth to the game in the same way items do, but without the inherent unpredictability of items. Also Hero's RNG tends to be unfavorable towards him rather than favorable, and getting it more consistently favorable requires making it easier to predict by leaving the menu open longer.
On top of all this Hero's RNG requires both players to not only know what all attacks do but to also practice recognizing what each attack is in a very short time frame (many players use a method where they just look for the length of the word and the first letter) which adds depth to the matchup. Meanwhile item RNG only adds depth in that it makes stage control more important but that's redundant since stage control is already very important in Ultimate since ledge camping isn't a thing and setup characters and edgeguards are more effective.

Because DQ was the original game to have menu selection combat and random crits and such out of all those RPGs
FF has menu based combat but they didn't give the menu gimmick to Cloud, because that wasn't the defining feature of his game. Limits were

>Banning a low tier character because of RNG

This is fucking retarded that's like banning G&W because of this 9.

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they're not even complaining about the rng being broken, they're complaining about rng because rng

>m-muh low tier

Keep coping, Herofag. It doesn't matter what power level your boi has, he's getting banned no matter what, faggot.

No they are complaining the RNG is broken, the argument isn’t internally consistent otherwise.

Bowser, DK, and even Ganon. And anyone with a counter or reflector. And anyone fast. So most of the cast.

We banned customs during Smash 4. Hero's kit is literally no different, except now all the equipment effects are now tied to RNG.
And why are we always going on about Bayonetta and Meta Knight when Miis were banned for most of Smash 4. And they each only had 12 interchangable moves each. Now Hero has like 20, 2 of them are instant kills, and quite a few have a bigger hitbix than DK's Kong Cyclone, which was also banned. What's the difference?

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>low tier
>Elite is nothing but fucking Heroes now
All I ever get anymore are Nesses. Heroes, and fucking Jokers.

These kinds of statements is exactly how you know Yea Forums is shit at video games.

>Elite is nothing but fucking Heroes now
Liar, I've not seen a single Hero in Elite out of a good 60 or so matches in the past two weeks. Plenty when I use non-elite characters, though.

>people are playing the character that just released more than characters that have been in the game since the start
woah
wow

>we banned
>he actually followed tr4sh competitively

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More importantly statements like "RNG is bad because it's random" tell you people are bad at videogames. A bad character having attacks that are good but have a 90% chance to be shit is not ban worthy. Especially in a community that never banned Brawl MK or Tr4sh Bayo.

Customs were banned in trash 4 because of logistics

And they're getting into Elite easily hmm

Customs were banned because of time concerns, you fucking retard.

Am I the only one who hated Hero from day one? Boring as shit generic anime character with basic bitch gear.

so basically how smashfags argue about viability

but still they made a big deal about it, talking about integrity, which is bullshit

>These kinds of statements is
The retard that can't perform basic English is also a dumbfuck who doesn't know anything about Smash Bros. What a surprise.

This is the only reason anyone is even discussing it, people acting like RNG taking a stock is unique.

No they aren't hmmmm

A single 3DS can solve all those problems.

>online

Ah yes, everyone knows Rool and Ganon are broken as fuck

Smash bros you need to get in here NOW.

discord.gg/N25dFQ4

discord.gg/N25dFQ4

discord.gg/N25dFQ4

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I just find DQ boring as sin, and I constantly get downvoted on reddit for saying how boring he is.

People love to wank the "nostalgia for Jap players" angle. Even though FE has more style.

You're trying too hard, spic.

>and I constantly get downvoted on reddit
Then stay there forever and improve your upvote count. Just never come back here, you fucking idiot.

>I constantly get downvoted on reddit
>on reddit
Go back and stay there, faggot.

You aren't trying at all.

The smash fanbase really is special in more ways than one

Get triggered lol. Do you expect me to only stay on the one vg thread or wait for one to popup on v?

>makes one grammatical mistake
>h-hurr you're English!! s-see I have perfect English myself, haha please a-accept me, guise!!
I called you out for the retarded ESL beaner you are and you can stay mad about it, faggot.

they're the same faggots who tried to downplay Hero's video being massive in Japan.

random fairs are critically balanced
Sincerely, the TF2 community

>vg
even worse than reddit
just fuck off and dont come back, we hate you

>random fairs
>critically balanced
Are you alright user?

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Get bent fuckhead, i'm commenting on your least favorite forum as we type.

>i'm commenting on your least favorite forum as we type.
Stay there cunt

No I don't think I will. Downvoted your post btw.

The chance of pulling Magic Burst at the edge when you have enough MP to make it count and the opponent is the perfect distance away is less than pulling a stitch/dot face, bob-omb, or Mr. Saturn. Peach can do some absolutely haram stuff with turnips, and she doesn't have a limit on them.

Also, everyone is ignoring Luigi, who has a chance to just delete you with his misfire. That's way worse than Hero's menu and people are fine with it because it's legacy.

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>That's way worse than Hero's menu
It literally isn't, what the fuck?

Hero is nowhere near comparable to Miss Touch-of-Death, you disingenuous bastard.

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>makes grammar mistake while saying stupid shit
>get called out for being a retard in two dimensions
>chimp out and just start flinging insults at random
lol

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>it doesn't matter whether it's OP or no
It absolutely does, if it isn't OP then the argument is worthless.

It literally is, what the fuck?

>Calling all of the wise souls of Yea Forums:
You won’t find any.

It absolutely is. Hero's menu has a decent probability of getting himself killed if he just topdecks all the time, and anyone under the age of 85 can react to his menuing.

That is, unless you're literally as bad as game journos.
>post yfw anti-Hero-fags are THIS bad at video games
youtube.com/watch?v=848Y1Uu5Htk

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You're right, he's even worse because at least Bayonetta's combos required some semblance of skill.

Safe? You know post nerf peach can only pull her turnips when she's in Advantage or on the other side of the stage, right?

I actually hate you more.

No, that's simply wrong. Stuff like items are banned not because they're OP, but detrimental to what people feel is a fair test of skill. That's the angle for a hero ban.

>and anyone under the age of 85 can react to his menuing.
Then anyone under the age of 85 can react to Luigi's side b. Explain to me again how the fuck it's worse than Hero's bullshit.

Except that you can take your time in most card games to make a decision and you are forced into getting what you get for your hand.
Good Hero mains will be using the menu is just a few frames and they can choose/cancel it.
Like imagine in poker, one player could choose from a pool for 8 cards, and shuffling those 8 cards just cost a few dollars, then as cards are handed out, you can just abandon your hand for a brand new hand that costs a small amount.

Honestly, just remove the menu, reduce the power of Magic Burst a little, and have Thwack/Whack only work after 40%.
Also reduce the damage/hitbox of his Neutral and Side Special.
That’s just it.
Nothing else changes.
Hero is now undeniably balanced.
No arguments against it.

Luigi can get a free, uncontestable recovery with it, and, at worst, gets a pretty decent mobility tool. It's hardly broken, but better than Hero's menu.

>It's hardly broken, but better than Hero's menu.
Holy shit, you're actually serious. Bro, get into Elite Smash before you spout this nonsense.

>Also, everyone is ignoring Luigi, who has a chance to just delete you with his misfire.
Missile is the worst move in his kit, my guy. It's only good for recoveries. No one in their right mind would use it in neutral. And even then, it's still not gonna do anything meaningful since it doesn't instakill like Hero's attacks.

>making the best of an inconsistent as fuck moveset takes less skill than a character so notorious for taking games with little effort that she carried two people to the goddamn EVO Grand Finals
How do you function when you're this retarded?

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>The chance of pulling Magic Burst at the edge when you have enough MP to make it count and the opponent is the perfect distance away is less than pulling a stitch/dot face, bob-omb, or Mr. Saturn.
Do you know how rare those items actually are?
Do you also forget that Hero can cancel out of his menu pretty quickly?
Or how Peach still needs to throw/aim (along with Luigi/Mr.Game&Watch), while Magic Burst will always be huge as MP gets easily restored over a match?
Or that the menu lasts 5 seconds, which is much longer than what most characters can stall off the ledge can do?
Or how Hero still has his Side B, which is a Falcon Punch that covers a huge area, is a multihit, faster, can 2 frame or how his Up B can leave a hitbox by the ledge, just incase he doesn’t feel like using Magic Burst?

I did get to elite. As Mega Man and Hero. Not like it matters. Even in Elite, Hero is hardly a threat.

New Tornado is his worst option, though. They nerfed that hard from Smash 4 for no reason. At the very least, misfires can get you random kills against swordies trying to edgeguard you. Any top tier can basically stop Hero from menu-ing unless Hero just top decks 24/7 and manages to avoid hitting that sick Kamikaze/Kaclang button.

>Luigi can get a free, uncontestable recovery with it
Zoom?

>and, at worst, gets a pretty decent mobility tool.
Acceleratle?

>Slightly good recovery is better than 20+ good fucking specials that act like items, most of which can kill you pretty early while covering a huge area
Nigga are you serious?

>make Magic Burst have slightly more startup on use so you can knock him out of it and not get ez-edgeguarded
>Whack/Thwack only starts killing above 30%
Balanced your character, if you get hit by a crit then you were gonna get hit by a smash anyway and you deserve it for not dodging/blocking it when Hero doesn't have Oomph/Psyche Up

Or how you can easily kill Hero like he's an even shittier Little Mac after he magic bursts?

RNG isn't degenerate and hero isn't degenerate. You just don't like the meta around him.

And you're clearly a Herofag

There's literally a video of a dude winning a Grand Finals in a recent tourney by landing a Thwack on someone who had 0% damage and it KOing them.

And there's an entire compilation of Hero getting his shit kicked in because the RNG fucked him over. Your point?

People who get knocked out of a tournament due to bad luck probably were knocked out for more than that. Most tournaments use best of 3, so if you lost a match because of Thwack or a critical hit, then you should surely have no problem recovering from that if you truly deserved to make it to the top.

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thanks for agreeing his rng is way too high variance for a healthy competitive environment

>ITT

Attached: Hoes Mad.jpg (832x934, 94K)

Stop sandbagging Hero's normals. They're pretty good, especially his aerials.

>They're pretty good
lol no, they are decent at best, a forward air with a hitbox at frame 14 is far from pretty good, let's not even talk about that shit back air.

That's not a real reason to ban him

They really aren't, they can barely be considered serviceable.

After he takes one of your stocks, if he doesn’t hit you once, and if he is still at the ledge for you to get him off stage.
And that’s like for 5 seconds since his magic recharges quickly.

Except Herofags are the one seething at the idea of him getting banned. :)

NA banned miis just for being inconvenient, hero easily deserves a ban by those standards

Your definition of a healthy competitive environment is nonsensical. If Hero's RNG is not enough for him to CONSISTENTLY win, then he's not worth banning, nor is he a detriment to the game's competitive scene.

Attached: 794.png (500x500, 77K)

If it gets people to stop crying about the Hero then ban him all you want.

>A few of his disjointed neutrals are slow, so all his neutrals are absolutely terrible

I don't play tournaments so leave hero in. He shakes things up from the usual wario, snake, olimar and peach hell

>just remove the menu
How? That's a fundamental change.

You are clearly a fagfag as well as a low IQ bum

They actually are though, does he even have a single aerial that autocancels?

What YOU think is a "healthy competitive environment" isn't valid and isn't real
Literally all the arguments against hero are fallacies about RNG being "bad" for competition. All of it just boils down "WAHH WAHH I DONT LIKE RNG WAHH"
It's low IQ shit

Luck is a skill too.

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HOES MAD
>HOES MAD
HOES MAD
>HOES MAD
HOES MAD
>HOES MAD
HOES MAD
>HOES MAD

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yeah but everyone is equipped with luck.

No, you're simply missing the point. It has absolutely fucking nothing to do with how strong Hero is in a competitive environment, but about how his RNG goes against what people feel is a fair test of skill.

Here's a more clear example to illustrate the principle: Imagine a character who has a special that has a 50% to instantly take a stock from the opponent, no matter where they are or what they are doing, and a 50% to instead kill the user. Would that be fine? You lose as often as you win, clearly it's balanced, right? Most people would have an issue with it regardless because it's a coinflip and they feel that's not what competition should be about.

And that's putting aside the fact that the controller of the RNG has an advantage because he gets to decide when to roll the dice, but that's a bit of a tangent.

No, it's not low IQ shit, it's a simple look at what people want the game to be. And yes, it's not ME specifically, but it is a general sentiment and it is both valid and real and that general sentiment decides what gets played. Nobody plays a game that's not fun. Nobody wants to invest time in a game and gone their skills when they can lose to a coinflip. That's why items are banned. That's why random stage hazards are banned.

If you think it's just me and that's not valid or real, feel free to put your own tournament with all sorts of random shit in it, see how popular it is.

>What the fuck?! That guy just got a full house! This is bullshit rng! They should ban Uncle Joey from tournaments!

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I don't see why. The RNG that Hero is running on is way too inconsistent to be a real issue. You're gonna have random wins off of Thwack and the like, but mostly it won't matter how good your rolls are.

The language barrier is a more serious issue than the RNG is, I think.

you all are retarded and shows how bad you are at the game if you think SA matters

even without his RNG the fireball shouldn't do almost 40% and kill below 100% and the electric move is too fast with half stage length, and super armour on full charge. it's a little ridiculous.

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That's really what those southern aussies should have claimed as the reason for banning Hero. Since several other characters have RNG, it makes them look like hypocrites for banning Hero for it, but the menu is a problem unique to him. Yeah you could read the MP cost, but you have to scroll over for that which gives an advantage to anybody that can read the menu.

>A few
Nigger, most of his disjointed attacks are slow, and the few attacks that are not disjointed are faster but have a small as fuck hitbox, like his Uair

It costs a ton of MP to use and most of his moves are slow and bad. He also can't recover without MP. A quick roll and he just lost half his MP.

Unironically based and smellypilled.

>It has absolutely fucking nothing to do with how strong Hero is in a competitive environment
And that's the problem, because thinking that ANY other kind of argument matters when it comes to banning a character is stupid as fuck. If he's not strong enough to carry players, nor is he influential enough to warp the entire meta game around him, then a ban should never even be on the table.

>Imagine a character who has a special that has a 50% to instantly take a stock from the opponent, no matter where they are or what they are doing, and a 50% to instead kill the user.
Good thing Hero ISN'T a coin flip then, you goddamn inbred.

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>If Hero's RNG is not enough for him to CONSISTENTLY win, then he's not worth banning
So if a character even has the slimmest possibility of ever being beaten, then they are not banworth?
Just ignore how the character drastically changes how the game is played or how their play style is just flat out uncompetitive?
Hell, the biggest problem with hero isn’t “I lose to him all the time” (although he is definitely on the stronger side of things). Hero is essentially “Items On” the character.
His RNG changes several fundamentals and how to approach him since he has so many options at once and most of those options are dependent on RNG, with some of those options being impossible to counter in certain scenarios (such as Magic Burst vs literally anything but Hero’s Zoom when off the stage), or at least 50/50 (Like Hero getting Hatchet Man and any other powerful spell while you are close enough to get hit by Hatchet Man while shielding).

Yeah, he could use some nerfs. But that's it, really. He's brand new and needs a bit of balancing.

Losing to a player who plays hero well isn't "losing to a coin flip"
If you lose to hero you are inferior, just like if you lost to anyone else. You just don't like the meta around Hero and his play style, but that is not valid and no one needs to care.

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hi played gg for years
gold hammer only adds more dizzy, which the opponent can mash out of.
you can't combo into instant kills in gg unless its the final round and the opponent is in hellfire, plus you need 50 meter for the time freeze on instant kill activation

there's really no reason to ban hero when the community never banned g&w, luigi, or peach. right now its just a knee-jerk reaction to what can possibly happen in a match through randomness
meanwhile joker is going to continue to win everything, consistently

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They actually are it's pretty easy to get into elite with him lol

The fireball is slow as shit and takes away from the rest of his kit. It's generally not worth using unless you've trapped your opponent, much like every other move that kills absurdly early. Same goes for his side-special, it's generally useless for anything that isn't edgeguarding.

If anything, his small and medium fireballs are MUCH better tools for him in general.

You mean Leo is going to continue winning everything consistently

...

Why should a ban never be on the table? How is "lol who cares" a good argument?

But I am glad you agree that too much RNG on a character is bad, now the only question is if Hero crosses that line.

>magic Burst vs literally everything
But thats wrong retard. There's a good reason you don't see Heroes throwing it out in neutral, its hitbox has NO priority, moves outward slowly, takes ALL of your mana (which is fucking huge, you lose access to literally every special and either have to stall for half a minute AT BEST or rely on your shit normals) and he doesn't gain a lick of invincibility. Any flinching projectile at any point, or large disjoint at the beginning, shuts the move down hardcore.

His Nair comes out on frame 8

Using this as an argument is fucking stupid, it "comes out" frame 8 at a point directly above him, then over 8 frames rotates down to below him, then he's stuck in the end lag of the move and it doesn't auto cancel.

Compared to most sword aerials thats fucking slow

this, joker's being carried

Yeah that's why I said most, but even then that isn't really fast, just standard Nair speed, a lot of heavies have their Nair at frame 8.

in order to stop further brain hemorrhaging, here are the valid and invalid reasons to oppose a hero ban

invalid:
>he's not that good
>his rng doesnt matter because sometimes it fucks you over too
>dude just jump/shield/adapt/predict the future/play around it
>it's too early
>bans are stupid
>rng is fun
>hoes mad

valid:
>Hero's RNG is not severe enough in terms of variance and impact on the match to warrant a ban

>So if a character even has the slimmest possibility of ever being beaten, then they are not banworth?
Are you actually illerate?
>If a character isn't strong enough to carry entire matches/tournaments for players
>or isn't good enough to warp the metagame around them and boils the whole scene down to "who can counter X character the best"
That's the argument here not "well he can fall off the stage occasionally so don't ban him".

>Just ignore how the character drastically changes how the game is played or how their play style is just flat out uncompetitive?
We would've banned Little Mac at the start of Smash 4 if that's the kind of flimsy reasoning we're going with. Also just because you consider it uncompetitive doesn't mean it actually is.

>Hero is essentially “Items On” the character.
No he isn't you moron. Items are a problem because of how they spawn on the field. NEITHER player has any control over what item appears or where it goes, so you can easily camp out players until you can grab one and start a snowball effect. Hero doesn't encourage any of that, he forces both players to attack in order to get the upper hand.

Meanwhile Diddy Kong, Peach, G&W, etc can spawn ACTUAL items but they aren't a problem because it's a dumb as fuck argument.

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>Hero's aerials are worse than Mac's
You're either a troll, or a complete retard

He's saying you can just grab him and throw him off the stage and he can't do shit post-Magic Burst.

He’s talking about shield stun I think

>its hitbox has NO priority
Doesn’t matter when he can just time it easily for when you are recovering. On top of the fact that Magic Burst lasts forever. Also good luck trying to stall out off stage for 5 seconds since his menu doesn’t cancel out for 5 seconds.
>moves outward slowly
It’s definitely quick enough to reach you at any point where you try to dodge it.
>takes ALL of your mana
For like a few seconds, most of which is spent by you returning to the stage (made worse if you are Star KOed), and he can just go to the center of the stage to avoid being thrown off like a Little Mac since he is also pretty heavy for his size. And if he hits you a few time, he gets a huge chunk of Mana back.
This is definitely worth it considering its basically a free stock if your at the ledge.
>you lose access to literally every special and either have to stall for half a minute AT BEST
See above
>rely on your shit normals
His normals, while aren’t the absolute best, are still on par and are far from shitty. Saying hero’s normals are shit is a complete Meme.
>Any flinching projectile at any point, or large disjoint at the beginning, shuts the move down hardcore.
Good fucking luck with that while recovering (or worse when he has bounce up if you go for the projectile) or getting past his magic burst with a disjointed air while recovering

idk how to even engage with this "debate" because I don't feel RNG in the form of weighted risk taking is problematic.

considering what you get for using Magic Burst, is a pretty good fucking deal, either way you only need to hit the opponent ONCE to be able to recover again.

>it's too early
This is not an invalid reason at all, people want to ban him since his RNG has the potential to cause upsets, if no upsets happen, he shouldn't be banned. There has been a few tournaments and so far we have had no upsets, if this trend continues, I don't see why he should be banned. If there is a consistent trend of upsets of top players losing to random Hero players cause on RNG, he should be banned. Waiting out the results is a perfectly fine reason.

>smash
>fighting game

>still in the game and online forever with you
HOES MAD
HOES MAD
HOES MAD
HOES MAD

I don't like this logic because it subtly implies if a hero main ever gets an unexpected knockout on a top player then the character must be broken and not that the player was good.

Montana just passed its ban

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So basically 5 people

Hero's RNG has next to no influence on the outcome of a best-of-3 tournament match.
Literally every player that tried out Hero at a tournament got their asses handed to them, which shouldn't be happening to a character that supposedly has rng degenerate enough that it reduces tournament matches to sheer chance. Some Hero player should have already broken the mold and caused an upset. Since they haven't, he's fine.

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You know, I'm just now realizing that you said off the stage, after typing all that out
I'm a moron, but I will now quickly change my argument to that Mana Burst doesn't really show up often in these scenarios, even if its really strong when in this situation. Of all the Hero competitive fights I've seen, I've only seen it show up like twice when i that specific situation, and in ONE of those, it was beaten by a ledge attack. Also, recovering high is a thing, and a large chunk of the cast has flinching projectiles that can be used in the air

yes

Nothing should be banned if its in the game.

of course they all "got their asses handed to them" in their final games. thats the way hero works. They get unlucky and they're out, and then everyone pretends hes not bullshit because he got out. Before they run into bad luck and get pushed out of the tournament, they get lucky and they unfairly push good players to losers or just out of the tournament.

so how did he get into grand finals? did he spam thwack the whole way up? because odds are he was the better player if he'd made it to match point already.

No, you compare win percentages, generally the numbers for top players getting upset to other people should be consistent with all characters. Hero should theoretically have the same ratio as everyone else. So if top players are losing to a random Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong, Mario, Link, etc 15% of the time in pools with their main, theoretically Hero should be 15% as well. If it's 30% or something, that breaks the trend and may mean his RNG does have a big impact and a ban may be justified, if it's the same as other characters, that means his RNG doesn't really affect the outcome of the match and a ban isn't justified.

no, that doesn't work because if hero's rng averages out such that he wins 50% of the time, that 15% upset percentage won't change, but hero will still be causing upsets where they shouldn't happen, and some good heros won't be able to pull of upsets against bad players when they should have due to bad luck. When you introduce RNG you can't talk about just the proportions. you have to talk about spread too. Hero's RNG significantly increases that spread.

A single stock in Ultimate is also equivalent to 33% of your hp, so thats just 1 clean confirm and Faust's meteor is an "I win neutral" button.

>Ah, today feels like a good day to make some hoes mad

Attached: the alphanary.png (999x703, 264K)

>Before they run into bad luck and get pushed out of the tournament, they get lucky and they unfairly push good players to losers or just out of the tournament.
Literally never happened. Did you miss the part where I said there hasn't been a single upset yet?

>they get lucky and they push out unfairly good players
Where and when has this happened again?

All of his moves that are actually affected "RNG" are so easy to work around and anyone playing the character seriously just goes for buffs out of the menu because its consistently the best option.

There's a grand finals of peach pulling a bomb and winning at 20% too. And 10% of Maister's wins were off of a 9 judge confirm too.

>chanting "hoes mad hoes mad" over and over again was not actually effective at preventing Hero from being banned in tournament play
WHAT THE FUCK HOW COULD THIS BE HAPPENING TO US??

>Outright banning a character because of RNG you can even remotely play around

Doesn't matter what happens now, Smash is gonna be a joke forever. Rationalize it all you want, this'll be the go-to for whenever "Smash is not a fighting game" arguments come up.

Magic Burst is literally the only potentially unavoidable RNG effect he has and if that got nerfed the ban argument would have no leg to stand on. Instead the whole character has to get thrown under the bus and now everyone's gonna shit on the community for being thin-skinned. Half the shitposters in here don't even give a fuck, they're just bandwagoning on "I BET YOU'RE MAD HUH HERO PLAYERS :))))" shit. Same type of faggots that """mained""" Plant.

>anyone playing the character seriously just goes for buffs out of the menu
This is true, you can probably count with your hands the times Hero players actually used Thwack or Whack at a tournament, much less landed them. At the end of the day, tournament players value consistency.

Smash isnt even a healthy environment for being to be playing and attending, other fighting game communities have accepted RNG as a part of life, just because you have a million people getting their shit kicked in online doesnt reflect high level tournament play. he's not the best, he's just not competitively fair, too fucking bad. you'll have change shoved down your throat one way or another or once again accept looking like the worst fighting game community for another year in a row

whether or not they get those buffs in their menu is RNG. the rng is unavoidable. its not just consistency either. those buffs are just strong.

If you don't have data about how rng wins hero game then you don't have an argument peach rng has won her more games that hero.

>KOs heavies at 30%
Yes

take a high school statistics course

G&W confirmed for bannable

The entirety of Xrd is slightly RNG since they introduced danger time.

way to assume that I think the other RNG is fine. while its much more tolerable, I am of the opinion that peach, G&W, and luigi should all be banned

Luck is directly acting against skill

>is called The Hero
>absolutely destroys the smash competitive community

Attached: kic5ipgovj431.jpg (1024x455, 97K)

Luck management is a skill.

G&W's RNG is usually used as a last resort and you need to hug the opponent for those 2 second frames to work.
Magic Burst is a fucking AoE that can be shot out in 0.1 second frames along with the fact that good Hero users don't need to use MP.

nothing alike, fuck off already

Seething

Every option can't come out twice in a row. If you dont get zoom while on stage, getting it near the blast zone becomes close to 100%. You have a 100% chance of pulling between a buff, a projectile or kacrackle/flame slash, which are all the relevant things. If you pick Yoshi's island, standing at the inner end of the platform guarantees that down B covers all of the opponent's ledge options or you get a buff.

hero has thwacked someone at 0% in grand finals.

See

>Magic Burst is a fucking AoE that can be shot out in 0.1 second frames
It's funny you say that because most of the times burst was used, it got interrupted.
Though to be fair, nobody has really used it for edgeguarding yet.

>Maister opens every round with a judge confirm and there is not a single tournament he attends where he doesnt take at least 1 stock this way

He is both the hero we needed and the hero they deserved. Amazing how he destroyed both rosterfags AND competitivefags.

What the fuck are you on to even imply MB isn't a last resort? If you fail using that move you are beyond fucked. And even if you land it, if the opponent is gunning after you in the next stock you still can't do shit.

>Dexter literally dance dashing in front of a guy who's just scrolling through his menu
>Parappa didnt use side B once in the entire match

Yes, very high level competitive play

if hes already got the menu open you can't just rush in there unless you want to take that huge bet.

>magic burst
>1 in 100 chance
>guaranteed kill but only if it's an edgeguard and you're above 80 MP which means you're gimping yourself to stay above that threshold
>gimps you into being an incredibly shitty link with no recovery after using it
>cannot use it close to the opponent or they'll just smack you
>opponent can literally see you about to use it
>judge 9
>1 in 9 chance
>instant kill
>comes out quickly enough to be used frequently
>no punishment after using it
>no requirements to use it
>moves true combo into it

Clearly hero deserves to be banned, and G&W doesn't

You can do this thing called "shield"

>jab him
>literally none of his moves start up fast enough to hit you if you do
wow that was hard

>talking about rushing him down from a distance
>"dude just press jab"
are you retarded? you are at a distance.

He was using Wolf, he has a fucking Blaster.

Kamikazee can come up in Hocus Pocus

Smash 4 Bayo has caused the most butthurt, even more than Brawl MK or Melee Fox during peak 20XX

>ban Hero at a bunch of small locals and South Australia
>go to a major where Hero isn't banned because big TOs don't give a shit about your whining
>eat shit against Hero players since you have no matchup experience

Attached: 1544898992214.jpg (353x218, 75K)

>shoot him with a projectile
broken character. Ban him

She had 0 to death combos you couldnt DI out of and yet nobody wanted to ban her.

not everyone plays a character with a fast projectile or projectiles at all, turbo retard. also bounce is a thing

...

>playing a character without a projectile
Then you're just playing a strictly better Hero and guaranteed to win anyway if you don't suck ass
>bounce
Wait it out like every other buff in the game

Miis and Customs were banned because of time concerns and shit like Windy Kong being straight up busted. Once Whammu Kong got you offstage, you weren't coming back regardless of percent.

It's a shame because customs would have easily made 4 Palutena A tier but she's stuck in D with her garbage defaults.

Also should have been able to save a custom moveset to an Amiibo

>That's a dumb argument. He's clearly not broken, so why is his RNG okay if he's not a good character?
>Like, do you see how those are unrelated things? Dumb random mechanics aren't suddenly okay because they're on a shit character?
In the issue on banning Hero, they're entirely relevant to each other.
Take Pokken for example. Croagunk isn't banned despite having RNG on a decent amount of moves, and that's because he's not very good.
Is it good design? No, but that doesn't mean that they're ban worthy. Little Mac is one of the worst designed characters in any competitive game ever, and he isn't banned.

Its okay because if they're not a good character they can't affect tournament results. Did you think items and stages got banned just because of RNG?

people wanted to ban her and Brawl MK. Brawl MK was even banned in some areas for a bit.

4 would have been a better experience for literally everyone except for casuals of she was banned though.

Meanwhile Doubles would still be Cloud: The Game

Wasn't double Cloud banned?

Yeah, but that happened like less than a year before Ultimate came out so the game was already halfway in the grave at that point.

>using Acceleratle offstage
That's a good way to SD.

Turn based and karedpizzled

I've killed myself so many fucking times trying to be cute offstage with accelerate and ending up under the stage.

>Why should a ban never be on the table?
He literally told you when it should be on the table. When the character is so centralizing that the meta revolves around him, or when he's so broken that no other character can realistically beat them.

>But I am glad you agree that too much RNG on a character is bad
Where in his post did he say that?

It's fine since probably 95%+ people are the same

Is this all of Montana or one random local in Montana?

Fully charged Zap is pretty fucking useless unless you call a hard read on a recovery or a ledge trap
and then you are gonna say "b-but why should a character kill with a hard read at 60% by the ledge in a game where 7/8ths of the cast can do the exact same thing?!?!?" aren't you

Maister has taken at least one stock off Leo with a 9 every time they have a set. It's getting kind of funny at this point.

Does it really matter, it's fucking Montana

Well, it could snowball.

Yesterday it was South Australia, today its Montana. Tomorrow it could be the whole Tristate area.

BODY GA AMEE ZE

Attached: 25c0d849c91857709c5b58c66e4940e6.png (500x503, 18K)

>I lost to a character with RNG, that means the character is bad and should be banned!
So when are Peach and Mr. G&W going to be banned for their RNG?
>BUT THEY'RE DIFFERENT BECAUSE-
Because nothing. RNG is RNG and if you demand one banned then ban ALL of them.

is this Dr. Doofenshmirtz's master plan

Just like ALL the characters in the game.

People also forget that Villager's/Isabelle's turnips can crit too. But for some reason that doesn't seem to count.

>Bowser's fair compared to Hero's fair
>Ike's nair compared to Hero's nair
>Joker's bair compared to Hero's bair

That's actually a very good point. Then again, how often has a person lost a stock to a crit turnip?

The variables are much higher and much more extreme. Hell Hero himself has more rng than the rest of teh characters put together.

why pretend all rng is equal

Up air is actually pretty major for Villager because he uses it often and getting 3 turnips is a very cheeky early kill. Down air not so much. Idk about Isabelle.

>Maister has taken more stocks with judge against Leo than any Hero has ever taken against anyone in the top 5 of the PGR
Tell me when the above stops applying.

If you get caught by one of his Smash attacks that's 100% on you, because he swings that sword slower than molasses in January. Whack and Thwack can be countered, shielded, and reflected. If you're allowing him to have his Menu open long enough to select something that only proves how bad you are.

G&W is a good character.

One of the very few Villager mains here. Yes up air getting 3 turnips is a big deal because you can chain up airs intoeach other. Sometimes you wish you DONT get the 3 turnips though because it sends them too far for another chain, but its extra damage and time for more setup so its ok. You can't combo a Hero smash attack into another smash attack lol.

Isabelle can't get 3 turnips btw.

You're right. Peach gets more chances to pull turnips than Hero will ever get to down B and smash attack combined. We should ban Peach first.

>just play perfectly

People who have placed high at majors have gotten hit by thwack/wack etc. But I supposed they "don't count" either. Just because you beat some shitty hero on wifi that took 10 seconds to decide which special to use doesn't mean that everyone is slow on reacting. When Hero pulls up menu, the opponent has to react to it, see which 4 spells they have, then decide which one to "react" to (and that's assuming they're going to pick one and not cancel it, or just topdeck/pick randomly)

Not to mention shit like magic burst is literally impossible for the cast to avoid on ledge.

If you seriously think that dying on center stage due to one minor mistake, only because your opponent got lucky is okay, and think "hmmmmmmmm villager turnips are the same" you're beyond saving.

*dying on center stage at 0 percent

Reminder that the smash competitive fanbase ran on garbage "theory" rather than application. It's why these fags make tierlists based on theory than tourney results.

And yet they don't matter in the slightest since Hero still didn't rank.

>And yet they don't matter in the slightest since Hero still didn't rank.

As if when a Hero upsets a top player you're going to change your mind.

>STILL, STILL thinking the argument is about them being overpowered

Oh I know the argument being about RNG, and it's still a retarded argument. You've been cuckolded by Melee's settings that you think a slight form of randomness (especially one that has been considered due to how sloppy Hero's moves are) triggers you.

>just play perfectly
Yes, you play as well as you can, just like you do against ANY character.
>hurr all top Hero players can read faster than the Menu even comes up and select everything at lightning speed that means he's so OP and doodoo
I thought you people were supposed to be experts at this party game who could adapt to everything and lay out slick mega-skilled hoobiedoobie combos and ultra KOs of ass destruction. Why is it so hard for you to fight against a character even the Smash Wiki confirms is only mediocre with a lot of glaring flaws?

ssbwiki.com/Hero_(SSBU)#Attributes

>As if when a Hero upsets a top player you're going to change your mind.
I know that feel, I've screamed that Fox and Marth should be banned for the last 18 years solely because they happen to win stinky tourneys.

>Yes, you play as well as you can, just like you do against ANY character.

Not even MKLeo JV4's every match so I'm not sure why you expect me to.

>I thought you people were supposed to be experts at this party game who could adapt to everything and lay out slick mega-skilled hoobiedoobie combos and ultra KOs of ass destruction. Why is it so hard for you to fight against a character even the Smash Wiki confirms is only mediocre with a lot of glaring flaws?

>Why can't you adapt to RNG, something that you can't change no matter how good you are????????

Just ban Hero's Down B

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>Man I HATE smash players so much, GRRRRRRR I'm going to enter literally every thread and insult them constantly every day
>hey even though i have no idea what im talking about and will never play smash you guys should listen to how i think you should play the game. For some reason I'm REALLY concerned about it.

If you can adapt to Peach and G&W who have far more consistent RNG than Hero, then you can adapt to Hero whose RNG only matter when you stand there and let him do a fully-charged Smash attack or peruse a menu that auto-closes if he gets so much as tapped.

>Need to react to the menu
You can literally hold shield for everything except Hatchet man and Kamikaze. The former is 30+ frames without invincibility and the latter is fucking kamikaze. And if he buffs at point blank that shit has a shitton of recovery and anyone who's half decent at the game can punish it.

Or you could play ZSS and her zair literally stuffs out EVERY SINGLE MENU OPTION.

>Magic burst is impossible to avoid
Except for
>Snake
>Peach/Daisy
>Bowser
>Joker
>Ivysaur

Falco, Villager, Lucas and anyone else with a fast, horizontal aerial projectile can stuff it out too because it has no fucking invuln on it and has a slow spread.

>Dying center stage due to a minor mistake isnt a big deal
I didn't realize we were actually talking about Bowser and Yoshi

>If you can adapt to Peach and G&W who have far more consistent RNG than Hero

Please tell me how to adapt to my opponent getting super mushroom/super star at the star of the match.

You claimed I'd change my mind and cry about Hero if he won anything. I don't give a faggot fart about your pathetic stinky times, but I will laugh at you babies as you scream and moan over Hero's RNG.

Why were you standing there letting him use Down B and scrolling to Hocus Pocus, assuming it's even in the lineup to begin with?

by literally getting to him first before gets a chance, the fact that you bring up a what-if scenario is hilarious

>You can literally hold shield for everything except Hatchet man and Kamikaze.

Most of them are safe on shield. And he can cancel out of the shield and grab you. AND if he has psych up he can upthrow kill you at 110-120. Not to mention oomph/psych up smash attacks can shieldbreak.

>Except for

Wow, 5 characters out of 75+ can deal with an option, so that means it's balanced!

>Falco, Villager, Lucas and anyone else with a fast, horizontal aerial projectile can stuff it out too because it has no fucking invuln on it and has a slow spread.

not on ledge

>I didn't realize we were actually talking about Bowser and Yoshi

I forgot to type dying at 0, even if a Ganon somehow managed to reverse warlock punch you at 0 you still wouldn't die.

Doesn't matter since the amount of times that will happen instead of him killing himself is going to be infinitely less than the number of stocks you lose to stitch/bob-ombs/judge 9

If the hero is fast enough(believe it or not the one you beat on quickplay isn't indicative of literally every single one) he can get it. Even if they aren't fast they can topdeck it/ mash it out.

the only time your point will happen is if hocuspocus is on the first list (which is very rare due to being 0% on health) and having a positive outcome (which is very rare again), that you have to reroll and at that point the enemy is in your face

again, smashtards arguing about theories is retarded

That argument would work if there wasn't also millions of other bullshit things that could happen, and have objectively happened in tournaments with high ranking players.

Listen, the mere fact Hero even exists in Smash is an affront to competitive play and a deliberate insult from Sakurai to everyone who has spent years training and practicing to show Smash is pure skill.

>backpedalling to "w-w-well it's not LIKELY to happen so it's okay"

lmao.

So like with all the other characters. Better just ban competitive Smash altogether.

youtube.com/watch?v=oPr8ZqRHTQo
Thread theme

Again, same deal exists with Peach and G&W, so ban them as well or you're just showing that you're a hypocritical little bitch crying about a new character as what happens every single time there is a new character.

but I didn't backpedal, in fact I provide a solution right there

>he says this, while using an argument about unlikeliness

see this is the best idea

>one move with rng is totally the same as an entire character built around rng with much more extreme variables, to the point where you can literally take a stock as soon as the match starts

Here's a question.

What do you do about a pro player losing in pools and not advancing because they happened to fight a Hero player that got lucky in their matches? Even if that Hero player gets bodied later on because they're mediocre, they still resulted in a better player getting pushed out early because of RNG.

That's why it doesn't matter if Hero ends up never reaching the top at tourneys.

>something can happen with a million to one chance, that means he's OP and literally a threat to everything the competitive Smash community has worked for!
Fox can 0-death combo in four seconds the instant the match starts, ban him.

Your "solution" was another hypothetical where the hero is a complete idiot and the person against them is a literal perfect player.

There are, you're right. And statistically, the bad things are far, FAR more likely than the good things.

And all of your hypotheticals have been "Hero gets all of his randoms 100% of the time with perfect timing and instakills three stocks in five seconds flat".

>it's okay to lose because your opponent got lucky and didn't outplay you because they probably won't do it next round!

Brilliant.

RNG isn't a big issue.
Luigi has 1/8 to mis-fire Green Missile.
Mr. G&W has 1/9 to score a KO with Judge.
Peach can randomly pull Stitch-Faces.
Hero's RNG isn't the kind that will consistently win him games if relying on it, the player has to actually be good.

Now, in terms of the language, we don't have a precedent for this, where knowing a language (knowledge unrelated to the game) will reward a player far more than not knowing it - If he gets banned, it'll be on this, or all tournaments will have to settle on using Japanese or English and every player will need to memorize the spells in both languages.

The fact the good things can even happen is ban-worthy alone.

So Peach and G&W should be banned?

>it's okay to lose because your opponent got lucky and didn't outplay you because they probably won't do it next round!
Do people who lose to Peach turnips and G&W Judgments also scream and shit themselves like this?

No, because they can't Super Mushroom or Starman themselves.

>Fox can 0-death combo in four seconds the instant the match starts, ban him.

He has to outplay and read his opponent at the very least 3-4 times to do that.

>5 characters out of 75 can deal with it so that means its balanced

Nigger do you even play smash. The same percentages apply for Snake's Nikita, the difference being it doesnt cost all your fucking resources.

>Lucas and Falco not on ledge
Nigger if he's on the ledge then you can just get up attack.

>Dying at 0 center stage
Yes thats still Bowser. If he down Bs you at 0 and you made the minor mistake of shielding you still die because Ultimate lets you drag characters to the edge now.

Could've fooled me from all the videos I've seen it happen.

Not nearly as much because, like I've said before, a single move that happens to have RNG isn't the same as RNG: the character.

Am I the only one who fucking despises Magic Burst for being better than many other final smashes?

But you just said that because there is RNG with a favorable outcome, Hero is banworthy. Not only do peach and GW have RNG with a favorable outcome, but their favorable outcomes are infinitely more likely.

So Shulk should be banned, because he can become essentially Super or Metal on a whim?

Yes, the character who needs to have you standing still to allow him to do any of his RNG shit for it to be able to do anything, and you always think that every time he opens his menu what he wants is right there at the top first thing and his opponent is absolutely powerless to do anything in any way to counter it.

He has 1 Move that's RNG, and one more that's essentially just Marth but with a tipper neither player can control.

Doesn't matter, they're legacy characters with many skilled players while Hero is a new piece of trash.

>Nigger do you even play smash. The same percentages apply for Snake's Nikita, the difference being it doesnt cost all your fucking resources.

Nikita isn't RNG. If someone beats me by edge guarding with Nikita there's nothing stopping me from picking Snake next game and doing the same to him, I'm not guarunteed that opportunity if I go for the Hero ditto.

>Nigger if he's on the ledge then you can just get up attack.

If his spacing is bad, maybe

>Yes thats still Bowser. If he down Bs you at 0 and you made the minor mistake of shielding you still die because Ultimate lets you drag characters to the edge now.

Again, not RNG. Also shielding a 31 frame move is a major mistake, not a minor one. I'm pretty sure most of the cast would survive the fsmash at 0 afterwards anyway.

No, because those are examples of good RNG. Peach's turnips are well-telegraphed and easily played around and G&W's general strategy doesn't revolve around his judgments.

Hero's RNG and his risk/reward gameplan is entirely dependent on RNG. From his down-b to his criticals, he can close out matches incredibly fast just because everything he can do has some luck-based component to it.

Imagine if G&W had a chance for every single move he had to be a 9 judgement for free, and you get Hero.

Has anyone here actually come in Top 8 in a regional or better tourney?

If not, why in the fuck do you want to ban Hero and why do you think you know the game better than those that have done better than you and don't want to ban him?

So it's okay to have RNG that's far more unbalanced if they're old characters?

Oh you watched videos of it, my mistake. We got an expert here.

No, but shitters on Yea Forums are buttmad because they're too garbage to memorize a few spell names and keep getting killed by a shit tier character that nobody uses in tourneys except as a joke due to how terrible he is

>Down-B and Forward Smash make up all of Hero's moves

Get fucked

Samsora pulled 12 stitches against Leo and he still lost. Quit acting like Hero is a pure dice roll without counterplay.

Exactly. Because people have had YEARS to adapt to them.

>Imagine if G&W had a chance for every single move he had to be a 9 judgement for free, and you get Hero.
Yeah but only if he also had an ~90% larger chance for each move he does to kill himself for free too. and if his entire kit was nerfed for that. And if all of his moves required a slow charging meter that makes him even worse when it's empty

Well obviously.

Those are the reasons Australia banned him.

twitter.com/PuppehSSB/status/1162393037345103873

Actual tournament with players that placed well at majors.

So you're saying you're too shit to adapt to a low tier character who can't win against anyone that's actually good at the game, so it should be banned?

I’m gonna vote yes in the name of shitstirring

>Actual tournament players
>literal whos at some local
Nice
Now let me show you a collage of "actual tournament players" taking off a stock instantly with a judge 9 confirm, which is literally 100x more likely to happen in tournament play and can happen to real players, unlike thwack appearing and proccing at 0% (whichi can only happen against shit players)

>Smash 4 bayonneta wasn't a problem because she didn't win a major until a year later

Because she wasn't legal in majors for a year after her release dipshit
Bayonetta was S tier from the moment she released
Hero has been low tier since the moment he released

>Actual tournament

Was literally just a weekly

>players that placed well at majors

Was literally just Puppeh - everyone else that can't make it out of pools at a regional.

>>literal whos at some local

>top 30 player is a literal who

okay

>Now let me show you a collage of "actual tournament players" taking off a stock instantly with a judge 9 confirm, which is literally 100x more likely to happen in tournament play and can happen to real players, unlike thwack appearing and proccing at 0% (whichi can only happen against shit players)

Except 9 doesn't kill at 0.

Show us all the majors she was allowed in and didn't top.

Oh wait, you fucking can't, because all you fucking did was go to Smash Wiki, look at the top results, and think you're a goddamn expert.

Eat shit.

>top 30 player
lol
>Except 9 doesn't kill at 0.
Sure, if you're bowser or K Rool

>Because she wasn't legal in majors for a year after her release dipshit

>hero apologists

I mean, initially she wasn’t that big of a deal because she was slapped with nerfs ASAP and everyone thought she was mid tier until Salem won EVO and then ZeRo retired then everyone became a bayo player eventually.

>character wasn't a problem until she was legal in tournaments
wow user you sure showed him

I'm guessing you don't play Hero? Because none of his moves outside of Kaclang will kill him for free.

Kamikazee is bad if you're down a stock, but it's unblockable, huge radius and will kill easily. Hocus Pocus will generally just debuff you and not kill you.

And his meter is only slow if you're not landing hits. He charges by hitting enemies and his best moves are cheap on MP.

He's nowhere near as obnoxious as Smash 4 Bayo or Brawl MK were. No ban.

I'm gonna trust Dabuzz over the most inconsistent PT main

youtu.be/NB_KAD7A_SE

There was another clip against Squerk who placed top 64 at smash con out of like 2000 people

>Show us all the majors she was allowed in and didn't top.

She literally didn't win a single one until Evo 2017, a year and a half after she launched.

Kaclang is basically a kill or at the very least a free 40ish percent on him if he's not at fully charged smash kill %
Hocus Pocus will most likely either kill you outright with kamikazee which is shit against good players, or debuff you, which will kill you against good players
>And his meter is only slow if you're not landing hits. He charges by hitting enemies and his best moves are cheap on MP.
His best moves are also not RNG and the majority of his RNG moves are either terrible or worse than just doing a side or neutral B or regular attacks would be. He's also the literal worst character in the game without meter which is likely to happen if you keep spamming menu attacks

So, the first major she was allowed in?

>top 30 player
What if I side with Nairo who says he's ok? That's a top 10 player

>appeal to authority
>in response to footage of something that objectively happened

Hero's RNG is far greater and more prominent, it removes all notions of skill and lets the lucky player win.

And that's his absolute best placing. He just barely makes 5th at game shop tourneys.

lol

She was allowed in every major between her release until the game died.

Hero's RNG moves are all shit except for the 2 rarest ones
He's also garbage tier even with those two moves

Unless he pulls out one of the two insta-kills, he's basically a worse Robin.

So you want to name a major she was legal in before evo 2017?

>over actual footage
>when there's more footage of him getting outplayed
>when there's footage of MKLeo playing Hero and getting his shit kicked in

That wouldn't work because the point I argued against was that Puppeh was a literal who.

And Robin is the worst character in the game other than maybe gimmick characters like Little Mac

>Kamikazee is bad if you're down a stock, but it's unblockable, huge radius and will kill easily.
Kamikazee has a second of build-up and only does good damage and knockback if the opponent is humping him, and even then the opponent needs to be heavily damaged anyway.

>Hero's RNG moves are all shit except for the 2 rarest ones
Not even remotely close to true.

>He's also garbage tier even with those two moves
100% true.

His best moves are all tied to RNG.
Bounce lets you completely negate spacing from zoners
Snooze is an outright kill on opponents with any HP if you hit it
Zoom is a free, unstoppable recovery
Thwack covers a massive area and stops opponents from jumping in, threatening them with instant death if they do
Magic burst is a free edgeguard
Flame/Kacrackle slash covers a massive area in front of him which again, stops people from rushing in
Kaboom will suck opponents in and KO early and can edgeguard like a motherfucker

Something that objectively happened to some literal whos at a local

>His best moves are all tied to RNG.
Yes, all 2 of them are tied to RNG that hurts him more often than helps him.

>And that's his absolute best placing

It's better than all of he hero apologists here who claim they always JV4 hero players telling people to "git gud"

Why does everyone bitch about Hero upsetting people? Almost any character could do that given sufficient matchup inexperience or just overall reads/outplays.

Each of you have 10 seconds to justify this degeneracy.

Attached: herosmash.webm (960x540, 1.94M)

And he still has the most RNG in the game which is unacceptable in the skill-based world of professional competitive Smash Bros.

Not really, peach's RNG influences matches far more often than hero's RNG

>Almost any character could do that given sufficient matchup inexperience or just overall reads/outplays.

That's preferable to a character doing it because of RNG.

Puppeh is a literal who, and Nairo, VoiD, ESAM, and Dabuz all say Hero's mid tier at best.

I'mma go with Hero's fine.

Why did he just jump around for three seconds and let the other guy slowly browse the menu and get off a Thwack? Did you make this video?

Can Hero top 8 an S tier? Probably not he’s too random to do that.

And she only has one, ONE, ONE!!! move with any RNG.

Villager can get you up to 700% if you bounce the tree correctly.

>except 9 doesn't kill at 0
>I have never seen Maister play ever
>dash attack to grab to 9 confirm
Thats literally easier than opening the menu

And Hero has two.

Nobody uses Down-Smash as Hero, and if you get hit by Hero's Up-Smash you were always going to lose.

Right and it's one of her best moves, even when the RNG is as unfavorable to her as possible.

i really, really, really dont want to spoonfeed you the actual fucking obvious, but no.

It really doesn't. 99% of the time the peach is going to do the exact same thing with whatever turnip she pulls. Depending on if the hero gets buffs/projectiles/slashes and how frequently changes how him and the opponent are going to react.

>The one move that she on average uses twice as often as Hero's smash and down B combined

Sorry, I cannot justify teabagging. That is absolute degenerate behavior. Everything else was fine though, so I'm guessing you were just calling attention to the teabagging.

Peach's move is fantastic regardless of the RNG - If there was no RNG at all, and all you got was a regular turnip, she'd still use it.

Hero's is only decent when RNG is in his favour, otherwise it's shit.

>Kamikaze
>Kaclang
>Bounce
>Hocus Pocus

GREAT SELECTION.

>appeal to authority.

All amazing players but that doesn't mean they're right 100% of the time, especially fucking esam whos opinions were always memes. He even made a video about how Bayonetta was unplayable after her nerfs lmao

>Peach's move is fantastic regardless of the RNG - If there was no RNG at all, and all you got was a regular turnip, she'd still use it.
Right, so you agree that Peach's RNG is far more imbalanced and a far bigger problem than Hero's?

The only one of those moves that are objectively bad is kaclang(even that has some niche uses)
Hocus Pocus can literally win you the match, bounce completely fucks over projectile characters for 10 seconds(an eternity in a game like this)

That's also only 4 spells out of like 20

please supplement your argument by justifying >

t. NPC
please try thinking for yourself.

Attached: ExcellentAdolescentHoneyeater-size_restricted.gif (500x279, 1.6M)

If you removed Peach's RNG 99% of her matches are going to change very little. Hero without RNG is a completely different character.

>He even made a video about how Bayonetta was unplayable after her nerfs lmao

Weird how the 5th best player in the world has opinions that don't match up with scrubs on a chinese frog-breeding message board.
Even weirder how he was correct about Bayonetta, who hasn't placed in Top 8 since her nerf.

And look at that, he's calling everyone who's banning Hero a scrub.

twitter.com/PG_ESAM/status/1162828433568804865

But no, random user's who can't even get to elite on fucking Yea Forums obviously have a lot more experience.

Not really, peach pulling a turnip better than the default one is far, far more common than Hero winning through his menu moves.

>Even weirder how he was correct about Bayonetta, who hasn't placed in Top 8 since her nerf.

>won 2 evos in a row
>3 bayos in top 8 evo 2018

what are you doing

There's a glitch in the game that causes Hero's critical and thwack/whack rates to double when vs. another Hero.

The 500% was because both Hero's were using bounce and neither should have gotten anywhere NEAR close enough to allow Kaswoosh to hit, since they both should know what the fuck happens when they both have Bounce active.

Justify what? If I make a webm of me and a friend dicking around where my friend lets me shoot him to 999% with fox then kill him with a jab, does that mean fox is broken and should be banned?

Better, maybe. But less influential to the match. Especially if she misses the stitch faces.

>Better, maybe
So you agree that Hero isn't banworthy and is generally a bad character? good
>less influential to the match
Wrong.

>does that mean fox is broken and should be banned

Yes, because Fox can't kill off a single Jab. If you can, then you broke Fox.

Honestly, I think if they just doubled the cost of Up-B and halved his MP Regen when attacking, there'd be no issues.

Attached: EAwW-RYX4AATpdv.jpg_large.jpg (560x1024, 127K)

What am I justifying? I dont see anything wrong with this webm.

>So you agree that Hero isn't banworthy and is generally a bad character? good

maybe if my argument was that hero was overpowered and not inconsistent

>Wrong

nope. Most of the time Peach's actions have very little to do with the turnip she pulls.