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I get what you're saying but if you've played FF14, every single player is the *single* chosen one. You all do the same story like it was a singleplayer game. It's lame as fuck

Because MMOs changed.

Before MMOs were digital D&D, and people would play them casually, go do quests and have fun with their friends, now they're linear grinds that people who don't have jobs use to fulfill that human part of their brain that they need to be doing something that improves themsleves somehow, despite it being a retarded number no one gives a fuck about on shit like WOW.

Every nu-MMO developer just wants to make carbon copies of WOW, especially koreans who worship blizzard, and none of them realize why WOW got popular in the first place, and I can tell you it wasn't running MC and BWL every weekend, only 10% of the playerbase in vanilla actually reached end game, and less then half of that actually raided, but that seems to be the #1 focus of all nu-MMOs, raids and instanced PVP, and those same MMOs crash and burn in less then a year of release, sometimes they're even dead on arrival. Even worse because the MMO space is so bad right now, there are scam companies right now who make bare bones MMOs promising the world to people wanting something new, only to get scammed for hundreds of dollars in preorder beta access nonsense.

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Animal Crossing, but huge fantasy world with player trading and you have to find all the cool shit in the world yourself instead of just buying the best gear with microtransactions.
House buildings, farming and let me have a cool waifu companion like a cute female Nisse/Tomte/house elf whatever tf you call them.
Also Norse mythology that's not Hollywood trash. Make the elves have gaping holes in their backs and be hollow and shit.

Just make it more simulator instead of a grindfest. Make the cities actually relevant, like maybe you can live there, or find quests on bulletin boards I don't know. Feels so fucking shallow when you're in this small ass town with nothing to do, but it's surrounded by shit enemies for you to grind on.

But number 1 wish is cute Nisse/Tomte/whatever companions.

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That game exists, though it might not be what you want because it has full loot PVP.

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Why are they all naked?

PVP means fuckall to me. Never cared about it in any MMO I've ever played. I just want to explore a cool fantasy world without the restrictions or shit levelling. So if that's its only focus then I'll pass.

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It was an end of the world event, and the people who were controlling the altar killed everyone who came close, threw their gear in the river so no one else could steal and use it, and used the bodies as a barrier.

sounds like you should just play No Man's Sky you filthy casual

I miss killing people out in the world and looting their gear.
I miss being able to tell people to fuck off from my grinding spot or else I would kill them.
I miss being strong over the fact that I can spend 14 hours a day playing.

why cant the mmo character be just a powerful champion? like "I need heroes to get rid of this big raid boss".

Because thats not the point of an MMO.

You should be able to become the best, most powerful character on the server, but that needs to be propped up by the community, not NPCs telling you and all your friends are the chosen one and only you can save the world, only for you to never touch PVE content and then the next expansion comes along and low and behold, you're still the chosen one, and the last boss was killed by you despite you never touching the boss.

I love the sound of a real, growing world. I just want to do menial things, i hate the copy paste mmo format of "go here, fight this thing, fight boss" etc

I want to play an MMO where the players decide who's on top. The top guild for example, are revered players and are respected by all. I want content to be exclusive to those who were there. Create periods of time where an event happens with several raids/dungeons etc and once their done thats it. Those who were there were *really there*.

What i would love is if an mmo devoted its team to constantly updating content for all levels of play, consistently throughout the games life cycle but i appreciate that this is a VERY ambitious wish.

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>Wanting content that can only be done if you played at that time
Yeah that worked great for GW2.

I liked Runescape until they introduced GE and liked playing Wurm Online with friends. All the other games like ArcheAge are just fetch quests with bullshit filler until people reach "end game" and have repetitive shit, no actual goals beyond getting a new piece of gear.

Wurm Online was really different since me and my gang just set out into the wild after building our first boat. Built on an island coast. Turns out there was a butthurt faggot with a castle saying that we would attract raiders because of our presence. We just said "lol whatever" and chopped down even more trees out of spite. It escalated until we had to escape into another guy's castle who had the same nationality as us. Turns out he didn't want deadbeats in the end so we resorted to banditry and loot some castles.

Had a real blast playing it since it felt like a breathing world. Nowadays MMO's are no longer like that. They just copy the WoW model and call it a day.

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o dear.. wanna elaborate?

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Yah but da devs ned to mayk content 4 the hardcre plyrs who els gin hold your game up f we don gt mor raid gimiks

I think you can still buy their living stories by converting gold to gems

>I love MMOs so much, specificially the idea of them. A huge world where you can play with thousands of other players! For me, it's the greatest gift the internet gave us.
I too used to love MMOs until Devs and Publishers started pushing for the casual audience which just wants to log in, do their daily quests/dungeon run and somehow expect to be at the same level in equipment and skill as as the autists.

What truly killed MMOs was instancing and creating less and less quests where you needed a group for, through both essentially encouraging solo-play instead of people being forced to form groups.

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retarded wowfag
you realize wow was literally created for casuals right

MMOs are trash because NPCs have flooded the internet.

NPCs are strange input/output machines that have trouble raising the level of abstraction above their current without specific cultural instruction.

Once these input/output machines came to games wholesale, games instantly became systems of refined input/output and minimum viable product made to produce pure profit. All mystery, adventure, freedom and fluff was gutted in order to install monetization and simple systems that replicated NPC social ladders and wealth worship. They want everything and they want it now. Anything beyond ringing a number counter upwards and meta is worthless because they can't abstract new value, only worship existing value instructed to them. beep boop

You illiterate underage nigger. I wasnt even talking about wow, I was talking about how nearly every MMO in recent years and the first thing you sperg out about is WoW because an autist like you doesnt know anything else.

Mcfucking kill yourself.

You reek of wow zoomer, dipshit. Go back to your classic threads.

Ah, so its just bait.

Kill yourself anyway.

FinalFantasyTrannies are just as annoying as WoWfags, thanks for proving that to everyone, redditor.

mmos are literally a tranny's fantasy materialized

Video games are nothing more than another form of entertainment that have become more about profit than making something that's fun to play. MMOs are the least fun games to play because of how brain dead easy they are anymore. WoW killed modern MMOs

To be fair they do that trope fairly well

The main story is one of the biggest features of FF14, unlike any other MMO except maybe TOR, I never played that so don't know how good it is. Most MMOs make you out to be some generic faggot and they are pretty boring desu. I think if you want to make an MMO like that it needs to be a proper sandbox MMO rather than a themepark so people can truly choose their own roles and decide their own fate.

linear-ization and anything involving time-gates (dailies)

has become a general trend with mmos

because its easier to make a game that has a straight path

maplestory is an extreme example of which these things happened to over time

MMOs have the potential to be the ultimate Fantasy experience, but it's being held back by greedy devs who want to milk you for everything you're worth.
A shame really, because there's not a single doubt in my mind that a simulation style MMO would make way more bank than those shitty grindfests that get super popular for like a week, then die.

how would it keep you playing?

By being fun, retard.

that's why they do dailies so much, because they feel atm its an easy way to 'keep people playing'

Giving you a reason to log in every day that isn't a chore for one.

Seriously, the reason why I played EVE for the better part of a decade before CCP ruined it was to see what the fuck people in my region were doing.

Similarly H&H politics make me play that game every new world until inevitably some russian mob kicks down everyone's palisade.

By creating a dynamic world that is fun to play in.

Dailies are the antithesis of this, as soon as the daily content limit starts to become a thing in any MMO I fucking drop it in an instant, no one wants to spend 2-4 weeks farming 10 good boy points a day for a chance at something that will be irrelevant next patch.

So why dont you host your own wurm server

Why does everyone obsess about end game and raiding now

I oersonallybelieve the levelinf process should be the bulk of the mmo and where all the fun is. But now tbe modern mmo player hates it and just wants to rush to end game content that they hate and then complain theres nothing to do in the game.
All my fond mmo memories come from being some low level to mid level scrub and relaxing with friends around a literal campfire while someones playing an instrument they composed music on.

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This.
It's the whole thing leading up to the end game that matters. Exploring the world, meeting people etc.
Best memories are always the starting areas for me. Even RuneScape I mostly remember the very beginning from Tutorial Island and then first time walking through the gate to Al Kharid.
Elwynn Forest was chill as fuck.

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Because there is 0 player interaction and 0 real content, leveling has become a grindfest.

MMO gameplay almost always suck or don't allow user generated content because if persistent world.

MMOs are a true example of how normalfags and run things into the ground:

MMOs at the start:
>Online adventures made by tabletop nerds trying to simulate their dnd sessions. Very heavy social mechanics, very inconvenient for single players.

MMOs now that the bubble has burst:
>Soccer mom/normalfag simulators where only instanced dungeons matter. Low social mechanics, can be done by one person. Spend ingame sitting in town so you can do your dungeons 2 days a week then go back to sitting around ignoring other players

Its sad but 110% true.

>474450050
This.
And what player interaction there is has been simplified if not outright removed by the addition of tools to keep people from having to talk to other people.

If you play the game you find out you’re not really the chosen one

Thats the thing though, WOW was a major hit because of its initial leveling experience.

They spent 5 years on the leveling zones and it showed, each of them were full of content that made sense for the world, dropped things that made sense, and the quests weren't there to linearly grind you to end game, but to guide players towards areas that were level appropriate.

Go figure that when they ruined the leveling experience with Dungeon Finder, and then the cataclysm revamp, designed to blitz people through vanilla content to get to end game raiding asap, the subs flatlined, then tanked.

Thats really the biggest flaw in the MMO genre, the grind creates a segregation of the playerbase, and everyone is now forced into these personal progression grinds that they no longer care about other players, only themselves and efficiency.

>FF14
Dude you aren't the chosen one lmao

>What do you want to see in an MMO?
Planetside 2 but done well

So planetside 1

A big thing I miss are people who use to sit around certain towns or areas and just fucking talk. They brought life to the game. There's none of that now.

Leveling in an MMO dooms it to be linear and is asking to have your olayerbase rush to max level. Prove me wrong

Maplestory was such a great example of simplicity mixed with socialization. Everything in that game created an inviting aesthetic that made me want to explore the world and see new maps. Yet max level was so off in the distance I didn't really care about the pace. Just hanging out with bros and killing monsters. It was grindy sure, but really it was the backdrop to allow players to socialize with each other.

Thats why automated trading is bad for MMOs.

Right but also with good shooting mechanics because as much as I liked PS1 the gunplay was shit

Endgame in MMOs is too focused on grinding and loot, rather than on social mechanics.
Also the whole game is entirely focused on grind and loot and social mechanics are never encouraged, which sucks ass because playing through an MMO no longer feels like an adventure, it feels like a chore of grinding from instanced dungeon to instanced dungeon waiting for your numbers to get bigger and nothing else.

There's no longer any attempt to encourage cooperation and socialization, in fact several features in modern MMOs do the exact opposite and make it advantageous to NOT socialize.

If there was anything I wanted an MMO to do it would be to make it's gameplay and endgame more about exploration, adventure and socializing rather than just about making your numbers bigger.

Focus on questing to level killed mmos, prove me wrong.

They need to do away with skills entirely. Gameplay should essentially be mount and blade warband with players dictating the laws of local economies, player crafted items, strongholds, territories, taxes on sales. 12 peasants can kill an armored knight Etc. No more rock paper scissor bullshit. Minimal narrative but let player based kingdoms rise and fall.

This is a problem with automated gameplay systems, automated trade removes haggling and hanging around with other traders waiting for people to buy/sell shit.

Then dungeon finders, solo grinds, and daily shit makes it so people just use an interface to automatically do their daily dose of content and either log out, or repeat on an alt, say what you want about /looking for group, it gave people a reason to just chill for a while and hang out in social areas.

And if the only group based content are instanced, then you have no reason to have a guild and helping friends and guildies out, in fact you'll probably be excluded from the group due to limited slots unless you're playing the game like a second job doing organized raiding from 6-8 every night.

yeah I didn't like them adding grand exchange to runescape

MMOs should do away with the ability to talk across the entire server with such ease.

I'm just waiting for Starbase to come out.
Apparently it's Space Engineers + Minecraft on a single server with a fucktillion players at once, I'm just a little worried that the devs might pull out a "Sean Murray" at launch because it just sounds too ambitious for a indie game.

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/thread

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The WoW control format (press tab, rotate skill keys, repeat) is boring as fuck, yet every MMO on the face of the planet uses it. Granted it can be a lot of fun with a large scale raid full of chill people but that's so rare it's not worth the 100:1 ratio of neckbeards who spit out their hot pockets to reprimand you for doing anything slightly different from them.

>make endgame content the focus of the game
>waiting for groups to level up to endgame content sucks
>alleviate by making everything up to endgame soloable
>players slowly lose ability to function as groups
>random queues die out because everyone sticks with their friends
>and also because people don't learn to play their class properly because they had to solo everything so people avoid random queues

every fucking time

What do you do when this amazing leveling experience is over though?

The gameplay is always trash. The quests/things to do are always trash. You can easily get sucked into the game’s progression, but it’s always a hollow grind in the worst way.

Try an action mmo.

You’ll find they are just as bad but for different reasons.

Y'know, I have. I was talking about TERA that whole time, and I realized by the end of it, it's the problem with every MMO I've ever tried.

MMOs suck because they have to appeal to a massive audience. You can't make a massive budget game really hard core or else only neet autists will really get to enjoy it, so it's just easier to make an inoffensively mediocre game instead. This is what blizzard realized as they continued adding expansions to wow.

And what do I want to see in an MMO? A live progressing story that changes depending on the actions of the server population. And none of this telltale style bullshit of telling stories where changes have temporary minor consequences. I mean the world changes for good, factions get shattered, etc.

Or you could just team up to take down overwhelming threats. You know, like actual people. Mob the motherfucker, and not, YOU, the CHOSEN ONE, must end this evil, along with these 4 other CHOSEN ONE who are also here for some reason

Not really, the problem is no one knows how to make MMOs except for a small group who operate at a premium.

There are plenty of indie people out there making small MMOs, but those MMOs never get off the ground because the niche audiences they make aren't able to consistantly subscribe to the game.

A small dedicated team can still make something interesting, Haven and Hearth is a good example, though Jorbtar are kind of thick skulled when it comes to how they design the game.

I fucking love that sleepy wizard hat.

You aren't disproving his point in FFXIV you're literally the chosen warrior of a god that everyone else flocks to. While the story is good (atleast in HS and ShB) it's disappointing for an MMO.

Way too focused on end game and just performing at your best. Devs need to realize there are people who want to play mmos for something other than end game raiding

This. The grind should be fun too.

MMOs were unironically ruined by addons, which turned the playerbase into complete autists chasing after parse percentiles.

Too many of them are still point and click bullshit. Destiny is a step in the right direction but is just fucking boring.

Why can’t we have a fantasy MMO where you actually have to aim your bow, or direct your shield, or use stealth mechanics?

Here's how an MMO should exist. Make a huge epic game with excellent gameplay, music and graphics. Now instead of NPCs, just have the players. The players become the traders, the quest givers, the enemy, etc. Main reason MMOs suck is because the gameplay sucks and the game doesn't require much interaction with other players. Think about it, aside from bosses and shit, your interaction with other players is mostly irrelevant.

Those games do exist but they fall victim to other shitty MMO practices.

On the one hand playing a merchant sounds boring as shit. On the other, tracking down a merchant guild to unload all your trash might be kind of neat

>Destiny is a step in the right direction
Destiny also isn't an MMO.

Because everything went downhill from the day that DAoC died...

ive become such a boomer

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F76 tried that and it was an awful mess.

FO76 also isn't an MMO.

What? Why not? They're literally MMO's. What arbitrary rule are you pushing towards the definition?

user...

2 major criteria
>Persistent world
>More then 100 players in a world instance
Neither of those games meet either of those criteria, the games you listed are looter shooters.

>you are a legendary hero who has amazing powers and needs to save the world
>but first can you help me deliver this package to a guy 10 feet away please
>50 levels later
>yeah you can kill demons and shit but I need you to gather some herbs and deliver a package for me please, hero.
I hate this

Don't be fucking retarded.

Describe the gameplay

Are you the kind of people who also call League of Legends MMOs because you grind summoner levels and the game is played by millions world wide?

I'm a little surprised so few other MMOs do what Kingdom of Loathing does, where after reaching the endgame you can reset back to level one, and there are leaderboards for who can make the trip the fastest.

See? Arbitrary. Pedantic, even.

You have started this thread with a picture of some elf slut.
I am going to laugh at you.
HAHAHA.

I think you got the SCALE wrong

If your game can't handle more then a battlefield server's worth of people playing on the same shard, its not an MMO.

What if you become a merchant and can use the profits to build your own merchant empire with other players controlling your ships and trading with other players?

A r b i t r a r y

they're not mmos though, part of the problem with modern mmos is the majority of the market is saturated with non-mmos claming to be mmos

stop

>tfw can’t enjoy mmo because my internet is shit and i am poor.

then stop bitching about mmos being shit

right now they're made for brainlets like you who just want to farm ilvl all day

That's not an argument.

Yes, genres are arbitrary.
To be fair, i don't even consider wow to be an mmo anymore due to excessive sharding/phasing.
Not him btw.

shit at this point do MMO's even exist?

Heaven and Hearth.

Runescape has the perfect quest system for a MMORPG
>no main quest, able to do the quests in any order you like
>usually contain a mix of puzzle-solving and/or combat
>NPCs are all memorable and help push the quest's storyline along
>receive rewards that are actually useful (skill EXP, the ability to use new items/skills/etc.)
>rarely ever have to grind since quests give you experience that help you meet the requirements for other quests

It's a shame that the combat is so dull in Runescape (because the game was designed around solely being playable with simple mouse clicks), otherwise Runescape would be a near perfect game. I genuinely believe that completing a quest like Dragon Slayer is one of the most rewarding feelings in video games.

lmao gotta love founders packs, they're nice red flags for an MMO

fuck off retard. make the same op with a different picture stupid fucking semenbrain.

The internet ruined MMOs.

The second any content's released, somebody's already been through all the files and let us all know all its secrets. And you can't ignore this information and just play like you're in a single-player game, since it's not a single-player game. Even if you don't exploit the available information, everyone else that you're playing with will.

The game is robbed of all mystery and discovery, catapulting the entire invested playerbase directly to the 'mastery' phase, which is also rapidly overcome by the internet. The biggest autists will parse through all the information and figure out maybe not the BEST solutions, but far better ones than the average moron could come up with, and then spread these all across the internet as well.

All of which and more basically boils down to 'playing MMOs' now just being googling a guide and doing exactly what it tells you for 400 hours of grinding until you get to the point where you have enough unlocked options and personal experience to actually come up with ideas and solutions of your own that aren't unambiguously worse than the google-answer.

>But why are MMOs so trash?
Because they do a lot of shit at the same time and can’t do any of those better than single player games. Not to mention being massive multiplayer means consequences for your actions and story quality are usually limited.

here. Also agree with this because these games used to be about exploration and getting rewarded for risking your butt in the game to figure out new shit.

I've actually wondered if an MMO could fix this problem just by using some weird methods to load in new item/enemy data. Like, only when you get within a certain distance of a new enemy, or open a chest containing a new item, would the servers start sending the model data over and stuff.
Would probably mean the first time you see an enemy it'd have a low-res texture, but it does feel like a trade-off that might be worth making.
And there could also probably be some technical solutions for keeping various formulae on the server rather than the client, too. Maybe.

Of course, there are some MMOs out there that don't have any downloading at all, which are inherently immune to datamining issues. Those are fun for exactly that reason, too.

>calls someone "retard"
>uses "comebrain"

Dilate.

I would say that Runescape arguably has the best quest system of any game, if not one of the best.

Yes and no.

Runescape's biggest drawback is it is a solo game, so much so that they reworked the majority of the game around iron man mode.

The quests in runescape are really well designed, but on the flip side, the game itself isn't really good for multiplayer, other then as a casual chat room.

If this isn't the biggest indicator that only SJW's use gamer, I don't know what is. I can't imagine what it's like being so fucking upset that people enjoy sexy women. You came in here and DEMANDED that the thread be remade without a sexy picture being used for the OP. Holy shit.

I-I'm talking about the quest system, user...

And the quests are still designed for solo play, except for the 2 quests where you need to trade with another player.

Based

Spoilers exist for a reason, you fucking idiots.

I don't really see how that affects what I said at all, though.

lmao spike dies

Phone posters can’t spoilers

When just being an online game stopped being a rare thing MMORPGs nosedived. People realized they are mostly average games due to how vast the audience is they are appealing too, suddenly if you wanted a PvP experience you could just y'know play something else and get a catered PvP experience that's still online. Run down the list of what an MMO has to offer and people can find games better suited to their own niche.
I hate that it always boils down to Sandbox vs Themepark in the context of MMOs though because I think both have merits, and both have weaknesses. I like raiding and doing dungeons with my friends which is something a lot of sandbox games fall flat on because they aren't built around instanced content of that nature (if there is one with that please let me know). Meanwhile Themeparks are mostly one trick ponies and once you do all the current content you are left with nothing to really do, which is where Sandboxes excel, just having shit to do.
I hope this Archeage announcement turns out to be interesting because it's got a lot of elements from both sides I enjoy but the P2W is just so severe.

big lies

Everquest Next was supposed to fix it by having shit constantly change because of monster behavior. Like Goblins would build societies and expand and shit. It probably would never actually happen even if the game didn’t get canned though

Dataminers can be fooled by false leaks as a smokescreen attempt to dissuade people uncovering things before they are intended.
As for people writing guides and explaining game mechanics there is literally no way to stop that.

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I really enjoy MMOs with world building, exploration, and discovery, like a themepark, but I don't like when they're railroaded linear grinds,

There is a good middle ground, also grinding without a personal goal makes MMOs boring as shit, and you need sandbox elements to make the personal goals actually have purpose and give people a reason to log in every day, if everyone in the guild is working towards maintaining and upgrading their fort or town, then the game has a good sandbox system, but there should still be themepark elements in the game, because no one wants to hit rocks and trees for 50 hours in the middle of bumfuck nowhere just to make a weapon that isn't shit.

Have ruins, lairs, monsters, ect, but make the open world be a place players live in, instead of a themepark itself where it dies in 2 months because everyone already grinded past it.

I miss SWG. Perfect balance of PvE and PvP allowing you to do either one anywhere at any time via a flagging system. Incentive to do so for PvP exclusive items obtained via climbing GCW ranks or doing shit in big PvP zones like Restuss. Then when you're not doing that stuff you might just go fishing, or camping out in the wilderness. Buy your own home and decorate it with ANY item you've ever found in the game. Start a small moisture farm or ore extractor business. Several planets to explore that would still take around 30-45 minutes to cross even with the fastest speeder with plenty of points of interest and other secrets to find along the way.

The emulators just aren't the same, because it was all those random people you met and befriended along the way that made the experience what it was. A wounded hunter that shows up at your camp to heal up and get buffed so you spend almost an hour just chatting and becoming buddies. Heading to the Cantina and seeing your favorite entertainer, or to the Hospital and seeing your favorite doctor and either one giving you a discount for being a loyal customer. Flying in space and about to be destroyed by Black Sun pirates only for a friend to come soaring in at the last minute and blow them the fuck away. So many memories.

A quest system that doesn't make use of other players in an MMO is trash

Exactly, that's what kills me. There is no reason not to have both systems working in tandem to cover each others holes in content, sandbox style content to fill inbetween larger themepark update, but it's just not really done.

>But why are MMOs so trash?
The reason is
>A huge world where you can play with thousands of other players!
Is the exact opposite of what devs/producers aim for now in an MMO. Having an actual world and reasons to do shit with other people doesn't retain a large enough playerbase nor get them lots of money.
So they instead make games where you're running on an endless treadmill to increase arbitrary numbers and get things that are slightly better than what you already have. Instead of epic adventures, they've all adopted garbage like "raids" where you do your "job" and get some dopamine-shitting fanfare at the end, all the while your randomly-assigned matchmaking teammates don't have to say a single word to one another.
Anywhere and everywhere they can, the devs stick in shit that feeds people with addictive personalities, getting them hooked to the hollow success and then fleecing them with microtransactions.

The thing isn't that they haven't "figured it out", it's that figuring it out is counterintuitive to the devs making lots of money.

There will never be another good MMO like the handfew of genuine MMO "worlds" that existed in the late 90s to early 2000s. You get far more exploration, discovery and organic teamwork in something like fucking Minecraft than you would in any modern MMO.

That says more about other games' quest systems rather than Runescape's.

If given the opportunity, players will always optimize the fun out of a game.

I feel like people forget this a lot and blame the company instead.
Like when people bitch about WoW/XIV having corridor dungeons instead of more open ones, or random group finder systems. It's the community who drives that shit, not developers.

Mortal Online still exists buddy, why didn't you play it when it was cool?

The solution is to have content for those hardcore players but stop catering to them exclusively. Maybe things like loot dropping on death / PvP anywhere / "hard mode" for dungeons or whatever should be something you can optionally enable. The players that want that experience can throw themselves through a challenging crucible all day if they want to.

>tfw Mortal Online pre launch hype
>sounds incredible
>buy it
>have constant like 400-500ms because apparently only an EU server existed
>everything that could've been fun ruined because of it
Having players type "gard/gaurd/gurd" over and over after being robbed was pretty hilarious.

Modern MMOs are too much of a treadmill that limit player interaction. You can sell items, do dungeons, clear over world content, and all that jazz without talking to a single human being.

Maybe it's nostalgia or a sign of the times, and the novelty of exploring a big ass sandbox with hundreds of players scattered about is no longer as magical as it once was. But none of the successors hold a candle to Runescape in my book.

Fuck the grand exchange.

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nigga just play classic wow you retard wtf

>MMOs
>Catering to hardcore players
You fucking what m8?

If there was an MMO where they put as much changes as they did in Fortnite it would be so fucking cool imagine if they did the Cataclysm update in real time like they do they events in fortnite Deathwing raining hell around the map and a crowd of people following and running away from the carnage

I mean, I play an MMO that has its own ways of preventing the datamining issue. And you're not wrong, people do tend to optimise things enough that they start begging the developers to nerf some insanely painful-yet-optimal strategy they came up with.
But when new content comes out, it can often be weeks or more before everything's discovered. And that's worth something itself.

Outside of baby's first MMO Final Fantasy Roman Numerals Edition

I've only heard stories about it but when Elite Dangerous added ayylmaos that yanked you out of hyperspace without a big fanfare update that seems incredible.
It's a shame that hidden updates are a double edged sword, you need the hype machine to garner interest for financial reasons unless you have a gigantic following already, but that means everything is on display weeks or even months before it comes out. There's no sense of discovery.

I just love raids dont care about the role playing aspect i want to fight giant monsters with 8 of my friends

> MMOs so trash?
Too many people want too many different things. People here are especially blinded by nostalgia. People who play MMOs got really really good at playing MMOs so less need to talk overall. On top of that the fucking game model just isn't sustainable for most people. These games need a shit ton of things to do in order for people to be interested and then people's addicted brains need to play the game for fucking hundreds and hundreds of hours so then developers need to make the content people do be drawn out and not as satisfying. Like shit man, you try thinking up a board game people are okay with playing every fucking day for multiple hours and see how that shit stands up. It's so stupid to see the complaints, like damn I got bored playing this game after I spent 2 years on it. Yeah, like no shit, that's normal. Then people feel like it can't be them, it has to be the game that's shit because the game tried to make changes to keep most people interested.

If they tried to make it more unique than those things take a lot of time, end up being shorter, and hence difficult to pump out.

Name 1 MMO that has stayed around in the past like 15 years that catered to the hardcore playerbase.
EVE counts, but I really can't think of many more.
>tfw
It sucks, you can't even find good non-mmo games to capture the feeling of raiding.

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And usually thats an issue with an MMO that is linear and lacking dynamic elements.

Thats the big thing though, optimization is inevitable, people always follow the path of least resistance, but the fun is finding those paths and sharing them with others, if there are no paths to explore, then there is no pathfinding, thus there is no fun.

This is my biggest gripe with WOW's talent point argument, people always go "Blah blah, cookie cutter blah blah, copy paste" but then the counter argument is that the people who create the 'cookie cutter' builds in the first place have to test them out and min-max them in the first place, imagine being the first person who discovered rogue stunlock, or SL/SL, or reckbomb, thats what I miss.

Its not the communities fault that cookie cutter builds existed, its blizzard's fault for making talents stupidly easy to min-max in the first place, there is no choice between having 2 more second duration on chill or having 5% more damage, people will chose 5%, especially when bosses are immune to chill effects, and you're constantly reapplying them in the first place, and by the time MOP came out talents were no brain "pick this or else" choices, thats a problem created from the design of the game, not from the community, simply put, if you give people the choice between 2 shotting people with a deagle, and 3 shotting people with a glock, people will pick the deagle every time.

Completely agree, I love exploring the world and interacting with shit as you progress through the game but then you reach the endgame where it basically just becomes a normal video game with grinding as a prereq. Joining a long running minecraft server with a lot of development is a better MMO in some ways, EVE has the type of endgame and interactions I would like but the actual world and gameplay isn't that interesting.

Just play FF14.

GW2 is ATTEMPTING to go this route even though the game is very casual from its foundation. Though when I say Hardcore player base I refer to those that want to see their numbers raise by a few decimal points and grind the latest raid over and over until there is either nothing left or until they have a comprehensive phone book sized guide on what to do to beat it 3 seconds faster than normal. People who essentially live the game.

I do but I don't have an FC and my friends are casuals. PF can only go so far.
Honestly I've never tried to get into GW2 raiding but I've heard it's alright, I wouldn't consider them being catered too though. The updates focus is primarily on living story and new maps.
I do love my Diviner Renegade though and I really should get back into GW2, kind of waiting to see what the Season 5 announcement is.

>cant even find good non-mmo games to capture the feel of raiding

Its called monster hunter, you're welcome.

>What do MMOs do now that you hate?

>play with thousands of other players!

You already posted it. I just hate other sperglords and faggot normies.

Not the same, but good. I've been playing MH since MHFU and while it's enjoyable I actually enjoy MMO mechanics in the context of the role trinity and that.
MH Bosses don't really have much going on in terms of mechanics and "strategy" boils down to hit it till its dead and build your characters to hit it harder.
Still a fun series though.

just give me eve online with modern gameplay

I wish more MMOs just let you do whatever you want anywhere (and have to accept repercussions) instead of safe spacing every player because dying is unfun

>strategy boils down to hit it till its dead and build characters to hit harder
So, raiding?

NexusTK

Do behemoth then

This x1000000000000000. I just don't give a shit about the 'Resplendent Sword of Shitting Dick Nipples +17'. Just want to chill with buddies in a fantasy world. God damn fucking Blizzard turned the entire genre into a diablo clone skinnerbox.

What I mean is only attack up matters in MH, yes that's a problem in MMOs being too DPS focused too, but I mostly play Tank/Healer and I don't really get that feeling in MH. Closest I got is HH which I love yet it still falls flat after time.
Damn you got me, one fight in like the entire franchise has psuedo trinity.

Best memories I have of all the MMOs I've played aren't of endgame content and shit, but the leveling with my friends.
If MMOs force you to party up to level they'd be problematic since you would have to wait for everyone all the time, but if you make it full solo then no one socializes anyway.
I don't have any idea what would work on our current internet society because back in 2005 ish everything was still new and people found it amazing just because it was an MMO.

People hate it but level scaling helps so you can play solo but still group up and not feel completely out of balance.
Honestly I think MMOs should just give up on levels entirely, they don't teach anything and if you are going to say your "main game" is at max level then what's the point besides padding. Have the cap be absurdly low or just don't have levels period.

GW2 raiding is by far the worst I've ever seen. The rewards for tackling one are bare minimum and unless you are running one of the Snow Crows meta builds and have precisely memorized an exact rotation of skills and their precise timings, you can forget about completing a raid let alone being allowed into one. Dungeons have been totally abandoned in favor of this.

They also need to stop focusing balance around end game hardcore raiding, you need to strike a good balance at the early-mid levels as well so that people are inclined to group up, but don't feel like they're forced to, this is what I feel like vanilla WOW got right compared to its contemporaries, it was soloable, but it was annoying to solo since you had to eat/drink between pulls, but when you grouped up with others you exponentially increased your clear speed of mobs

But now its faster to ignore grouping up and just cleave half a zone to finish a quest solo, and where there is group content its primarily just showing up to a big dot on the map to hit the same mob for a minute and hoping someone is running a tank build.

Honestly I'd love a game that had you level up through dynamic events ala GW2.
GW2 HoT is probably my favorite overworld of any MMO ever, just having constant events and everyone come together for the map metas makes it feel crowded and its just fun to do.
It'd be more interesting to have maps built around events over static quests you complete then never have a reason to come back.

I love my wife Valeera so much.

notice how only her boobs have perfect shading

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May god bless that artist for having his priorities right.

I thought absolver was pretty cool and offers some alternative approaches for constructing an MMO. Now if only they could keep people playing.

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Most modern MMORPGs would be much better off being ORPGs in the mold of something like Neverwinter Nights. You have a bas co-op RPG with lots of modding tools and let players create their own content and servers. Focus is still on cooperative play in small-to-medium sized groups (as is the case in most modern MMOs) but less constricted by everything being tied to a persistent world, so you have the same gameplay without rigid MMO mechanics.

If a game is a true MMO with a persistent world and all it should really play more like EVE or SWG. Not because those are better games but because they actually take advantage of open world gameplay. What you have in modern MMOs is just castrated ORPG gameplay in instanced content, with a mostly redundant open world on the side.

I thought this was just a fighting game

Yeah but no one is going to pay $15 a month for premium for an ORPG, which is why a majority of online games call themselves MMOs when they're not.

I really wanted something like this to succeed, I'd love to see more just persistent online worlds in games.
When I was playing Journey I always imagined what it'd be like to see that approach taken to bigger titles, having games focused on anonymous drop in/drop out coop with a focus on simple gestures for interactivity. Have it be about an adventuring experience with other players instead of focusing on some endgame ideal or the big social club aspect.

I'd say that MMOs are too tied on progression through different "tiers". Whether that be the way Destiny does their ranking of weapons and items, the way that ESO does their ranking of weapons and items or different ways. You get a system where people just ignore everything they've done previously and farm the higher tiers over and over because they're just plain better than everything else. This sounds like a stupid point, but I think the biggest problem right now is this progression that MMOs have which make you stay in specific areas only to get this specific material or item. Another issue is that you end up logging in to only do a boss run about twice that day and then log out, there's nothing drawing the player apart from daily quests to go out and do anything after completing an area. They can just buy the materials, they can get their lower ranks to farm it in exchange for the loot they get (which to them are throwaway shit no one wants).
Another issue with Fantasy MMOs is that its the same fucking setting. Its the same ye'olde medieval time with mages and magic thrown in because they couldn't think of anything original or new for healing classes or anything like that. This includes the issue of being able to know how to do so many things at once or just switching classes without weight. For example, if I'm starting in an MMO, let me switch up my playstyle early if I don't like it or respec my skills, but if I'm like LVL 30 and I've obviously invested myself into a specific role, make it hard for me, make me work for that respec or new role. I'm tired of so called "hard" content MMOs having specific roles everyone plays from the beginning and never experimenting or sticking through with their mistakes. That's another thing, make quests actually fail if you fuck up or something.

I miss being able to PK.
>hurr pvp is still a thing
No, it isn't. It was never about pvp. It was about the gank. MMOs have been dead ever since death became meaningless. Nothing will recreate the feeling I got when people screamed out "REDS IN GRAVEYARD" or the pitched battles when scrubs would form anti-PK guilds only to be eradicated.

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My biggest problem is that if I wanna be a blacksmith, I can be a blacksmith AND an incredibly well versed swordsman AND someone who can craft powerful spells/potions. Limit. Control.
If you don't limit players from becoming a one man utility, the need for a clan or team system is lost or hindered, if you don't make these roles important, then what's the actual point of working in these roles? What's the result of one of our blacksmiths leaving our clan or team. In most MMOs, it means jackshit.

This is not what happens in practice, what happens is one guild wins due to behaving like a bunch of bug exploiting, rmting faggots and ruins the game for everyone else or nobody with less than 12 hours a day to play can be useful for anything.

>where you can play with thousands of other players
>thousands

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maybe an MMO that like, once every month generates a new randomized world, and the old one is lost

Crowfall is trying to do something with map seasons that is interesting at least to shake things up a bit.

Thats what crowfall is trying to be, also Haven and Hearth has world resets every year or so.

>Crowfallmind
tfw I want to try it but the buy-in is still so high.

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It's a fighting game in an open world, with NPC enemies set up Dark Souls-style. But also, other players drop in and out of your session and can help you or spar with you. What's interesting is that you set up a move list similar to the custom movelist in God Hand, and you learn new moves by defending them correctly when an opponent uses them.

It's still very playable as far as I know, and it's worth a night of your time if you think it's interesting. The NPCs can put up a pretty good fight.

The issue is that the game doesn't really have the content to justify mastery. It's a handful of scripted boss fights and the social elements, and that's about it.

Again, really unique experience and totally worth a session, especially if you have some friends to mess around with. More games have got to follow in its footsteps, it just feels like we're not quite there yet with this one.

>the idea of them
>A MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME

This confuses me too. I've never played a traditional mmo before, except for trying wow for maybe an hour. And that's exactly what it was: a mindless treadmill singleplayer game that happened to be online. Planetside 2 was actually fun and achieved some player interaction on large scales that I haven't seen anywhere else. So where are the MMOs that don't have all the grinding bullshit, leveling, etc. and let you play a *game* with millions of other people?

Don't -ever- buy betas, they're scams.

Crowfall will probably be dead on arrival, save your money, wait for release, if it releases, try it then, don't fucking buy betas.

...user is there a story behind this? It's oddly specific.

I'm an MMOfag desperate for something new, I know EA is a scam but I really like seeing game ideas. Shame more of them don't come to fruition.
Legends of Aria for example is probably better off as being an Ultimate Online revival than it's own game.

Fallout is obviously supposed to be an MMO. I think having the players do everything isn't a great idea for just logistical reasons.

minecraft alpha/beta wasn't a scam

What happened to that MMO where each character had a soul and some souls had special powers or something? I remember being told about that ages ago and I kind of doubt it ever came out since the idea was trashy on paper.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor, do not buy betas.

Right now there is a massive money making scheme for people kickstarting MMOs to prey on thirsty MMOfags, just don't do it man, its not worth it, and you'll be part of the problem if you do.

Beta phases are the time where MMO developers should be creating free PR for their game, letting people try the polished parts of the game, and thats the issue, people who buy into betas are apologists who are trying to justify giving $100 for an incomplete, and probably never going to deliver product, and the MMOs that do that tend to be dead on arrival.

Just don't do it.

Minecraft alpha/beta wasn't $100.

Minecraft also dropped its development goals real fucking fast once notch became a millionaire.

That being said I understand the appeal and I hope that MMOs can go in a more DND like direction, with at least exploration and combat based pillars. For now though I enjoy MMOs where the classes are fun to play and the fights are enjoyable to get through.

>Go figure that when they ruined the leveling experience with Dungeon Finder, and then the cataclysm revamp, designed to blitz people through vanilla content to get to end game raiding asap, the subs flatlined, then tanked.
You're sounding like a gigantic nostalgiafag to me. You can dislike the redesigned zones all you like and all the new lore, but to say that everything was made with zero context and with no intention to guide you through new locations and zones is being incredibly dishonest.
If anything the Cataclysm quest revamp had much better stories (which you probably never paid attention to because you're yet another vanilla nostalgiafag) the quests flowed a lot better and weren't all just mundane shit.
Sure they fucked up the world and the lore behind it all was hot garbage, but to say that the leveling experience was worse than fucking vanilla of all things is peak rose tinted goggles.

More specifically Living world season 1. Heard it got really bad reception at first due to hammy villain, limited time only story and events that changed the world. You had to have been there to play it.

What said
GW2 tried to have an "ever changing world" and it turns out most people don't like a game that makes irrevocable changes. Now years later players get a small cutscene and paragraphs of infodump for what Season 1 was, and it also hurts the story throughout Season 2 since you really have no idea who the fuck these people are that you are working with.
Regardless of the quality of the story itself the temporary aspect of it only dragged it down further.

>cataclysm quest revamp had better stories

Im fucking sorry I didn't like CSI Westfall and Redridge: First Blood.

The quests were linear as fuck, designed to chain back to back, and had little to no incentive to actually group up or do dungeons, cataclysm was streamlined to get people into end game raiding as soon as fucking possible.

Most poeple just stopped questing outright, why quest when you can just dungeon queue with hierlooms and get 5+ levels in a single instance, reason why people stopped saying ding, if someone was leveling an alt, they were going to ding every 10 minutes.

An MMO where the overall goal isn't necessarily to be able to just kill stuff as fast as possible would be interesting.

It should certainly still be one avenue players can go down, but not the only one. I think the problem is that players are largely accustomed to being put on a gear treadmill, so all developers really know how to do any more is build treadmills. It's harder to figure out how to keep a player entertained and paying their subscription fee entirely with something like crafting or performing or subterfuge. Well, I guess there is EVE.

>tfw vanilla wowfags never shut up
>tfw their game was extremely casual, catered to solo players, had all the worst aspects of themepark mmos, and even started the downward spiral of the genre.
>they still act like it's the best game ever made.
Hurts my soul.

That's actually pretty close to what Chronicles of Elyria is trying to do.

The game starts out with a world of NPCs that have their own family and property, and character creation is about choosing which NPC to replace. For example, if you want to be a blacksmith, you choose a family of NPCs that start out good at blacksmithing and you get access to the family's forge and supplies. Other players might become your dad or your sister, and you probably will work together to smith stuff.

MMOs by definition are a casual, grindy as fuck genre.

But they're also social games, which is the problem with modern MMOs to begin with, they're antisocial as fuck.

And no having terrible UIs that makes the games barely playable, where half your functionalities are done with /commands or having to camp rare spawns for 20+ hours doesn't make them more hardcore.

I want a Mabinogi new server without the p2w kind of like what maple story got or even a spiritual successor.

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What quests in vanilla were open eneded and left you with choices? You had 14 quests in senrtinel hill to go collect mundane things and kill whatever enemies walked around nearby with 5 paragraphs each of lore dump, which 95% of the playerbase never cared about anyway. The new Westfall looked like garbage and nonsensical, but at least the quests were something a new player could get invested in while being shown through the zone and steered in the direction of the next story.
>Most poeple just stopped questing outright
Were there people in vanilla just randomly going out questing when they were max level?
At that point when the cataclkysm revamp happened, the grand majority of the playerbase had their mains and alts at max level and they had been for years.
Dungeon finder may be shitty, but it is a necessity for a game as old as WoW when most players have no need to do such content anymore. New players wouldn't be able to do basically anything in the game if they were left to the original systems and you're in denial if you think that people would always be willing to help.
But this is getting off topic because I'm trying to discuss purely about zone and questing experience

you're right, my bad

Why aren't PvP MMOs more popular? Leveling up and obtaining gear by killing players is 1000x more fun than doing menial quests over and over again.

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so basically mmo with
0 NPCs and just some resources

PvP MMOs tend to focus on group play, player skill, knowledge of game systems and potential loss of progress.
Modern audiences hate all of those things with a passion.

Quests in vanilla weren't designed to be the end all be all of world design, they were a guide to get people to go to level appropriate zones

The world itself told its story through set peice and world design, something cataclysm threw out the window with its meme quest designs, every new zone was either some pop culture reference, or a cutscene riddled mess.

Also because they were so streamlined, oldfags didn't level alts anymore, and when they did, they didn't do it in the world, they did it through dungeon queues, where they would just rush through chain pulling half the dungeon and any newbro would just be sitting there going 'what the fuck' as the tank kills half of the dungeon by himself thanks to his enchanted to fuck hierlooms.

In vanilla things were different, quests didn't give gear most of the time, so you would have to find new gear, either by farming mobs, training professions, or trading with other people in the same zone, then you have professions, which required you to go out and actually farm the materials needed, but in cataclysm you'd get gear appropriate to your level from every quest, so professions didn't matter until end game, and the only end game professions that mattered were the consumables and enchanting professions.

Cataclysm's world became linear by design, and not in a good way, the 'world' became one giant chain of follow the dots, rather then an open world for players to explore and exploit, because none of the content, especially the fucking quests, mattered, because the game by that point became Ion Hozzikostas' raid or die wetdream.

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if the mmo is just pvp, its just a multiplayer game with a ingame lobby

I'm still waiting for VR GTA or the Oasis

What do you think of Project Gorgon ?

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Oh fuck off.
Vanilla quests daisychained from hub to hub and were 90% soloable. Most people just didn't even bother with dungeons their first go around because just doing quests would take you out of their level range. Not to mention some zones that were secluded behind other zones barely saw foot traffic because it wasn't on the normal quest train to even go there.
It was literally the same fetch quests we see now in modern way, you can go fucking level in outland and see the prior quest design.
>Stroll into town
>Pick up 15 quests
>Do them
>Quest takes you to next hub
>Rinse Repeat until they turn green/gray
God you fuckers are delusional, heirlooms broke dungeons and turned them into AoE meat grinders which is true. Funny enough they were nerfed along with dungeon scaling made harder and people cried over it because they said it's just there to sell boosts.

I want a game that has the complexity and player driven content, and the feeling of you being just a cog in a massive machine that makes all of the main events happen. So, like Eve online, but in a fantasy setting, let's say.
In EvE, you can do pvp, massive fleet battles, raids, you can just be a simple miner, or a space-truck driver, a scout, a master engineer etc. You can focus on just one of these simple roles and you don't feel like the "chosen one" on a loot threadmill, You need to work together to get anywhere.

Everyone wants Fantasy EVE.
Seems like it'll never happen.

>a small group who operate at a premium.
who is this?

I hate story quests in general. You know, the ones full of cutscenes that have you running from one story quest marker to the other instead of exploring the world and maybe even playing with other people.

Given the kind of garbage you have to go through while leveling in most modern MMOs it's weird they even have leveling in them anymore. In some games you basically only do story quests until you reach max level and that's it. There's no grinding, there's no adventure, there's no exploration. Just follow the red or whatever coloured story quest marker from one cutscene or shitty story boss to another.

It's even worse when you're the chosen one. Vanilla WoW is like the only example I can think of where you just do stuff in the game world and every other player is a random adventurer/hero just like you, but that got ruined too with the expansions. It gets really dull when everyone gets on their knees ready to eat you out or suck your dick as soon as they see you because you're THE CHOSEN ONE.

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bdo is for you gl with suicide seems you're depressed af

>best mmo quests
>all quests except 2 are designed for solo

Because they were nerfed to sell boosts you fucktard.

Vanilla questing works because its a boring, slow endevor that is only made faster by grouping up with others., now grouping up is completely a waste of time, in fact it only slows you down.

They nerfed leveling in BFA explicitly to sell boosts, why? Becuase they didn't do anything to fucking fix cataclysm leveling, there were litterally weeks where certain zones in the world were undoable when leveling because the level scaling was fucked, and it was so fucking slow that people found that the 95% exp nerf for having a 120 farm dungeons for you was faster then actually questing, and that got nerfed too, rather then them fixing the leveling experience.

Stop sucking cataclysm's cock, it was designed by fucking brainlet raiders who thought making a zone into a massive fucking indiana jones meme was a good idea.

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Damn I miss Eve before it switched from an Icelandic grinding MMO to a Korean one.

>Vanilla quests daisychained from hub to hub
below level 30, maybe
>90% soloable
below level 15, maybe
>Most people just didn't even bother with dungeons their first go
Huh
>some zones that were secluded behind other zones barely saw foot traffic because it wasn't on the normal quest train to even go there
How very daisychained huh
>you can go fucking level in outland and see the prior quest design
we're talking about vanilla

>I miss being strong over the fact that I can spend 14 hours a day playing.
I just miss games rewarding effort in general. I'm not going to waste my time raiding in your shit game if people who don't put in the effort can get gear nearly as good as mine. Or even worse, if people willing to throw money at the game can just buy the same gear.

MMO netcoders are incredibly niche and the only people who know how to do it are indie developers, or people who have been hopping between companies to create the framework for an MMO game, one of the reasons why WOW cant handle more then 20 people in the same zone anymore is because the developer who coded WOW's netcode left over a decade, its why it took blizzard 10 years to upgrade the size of the backpack, because they didn't know how to adjust the inventory slot code serverside.

Why, world coherency, of course.

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LOOK AT THOSE FUCKING THIGHS SWEET JESUS I WANT THEM TO CRUSH MY SKULL

So is tedium good or not, because they added it back and now it's a bad thing.
Daisychained into bringing you into certain zones while dismissing others. I leveled 3 classes to 60 in Vanilla and not once did I ever feel like I needed someone else to tag along. I also never felt obligated to step foot into a dungeon, I did a few at low level (and because I wanted the red defias bandana on my rogue) and then just went back to playing solo. Nothing in Vanilla WoW pushed me out of that comfort zone of just soloing to 60 and then once I hit it just sitting in town looking for groups. Not once did I ever feel obligated to go somewhere like Desolace or Felwood until after the revamp.

The thing I hate about MMOs is that if you aren't there from the beginning, it becomes a single player game. This is especially true with f2p MMOs. I'm enjoying SoulWorkers but it's mainly been a solo experience. I'm also irritated by a bunch of players being butt hurt about the game's energy system so they made a private server stretching the game population even thinner. I really hope this doesn't happen to PSO 2 when it comes out next year.

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There is a difference between tedious and unplayable, stopping to drink and eat every other pull or joining a group is fine, requiring 10x the effort of vanilla questing to sell boosts is not.

I've heard this game is good but stuck in development hell, never touched it personally but it sounded neat to me.

It is good, its made by 1 guy and his wife, so yeah it is going to be stuck in development hell.

>Be there from the beginning
>All your friends quit one by one until you eventually just have to accept it's dead aside from third worlders

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MMO gameplay is so bad

Dude just tab-target + hotbar spam. Dude just have a fuckton of little boxes all over the screen. Dude just crunch numbers all day. Dude just go from section to section and level up by doing the same monotonous and unmemorable quests. It's so mind-numbingly boring. I don't get how such a unique concept for a genre can be so uninnovative and samey.

this sounds really niche and poorly fleshed out, not surprised it didn't succeed

The first one is tedium.
As someone who leveled a class recently to 120, a priest no less, the quest pacing was actually fine. You get to actually complete zones for the first time in forever because of scaling. The slowdown only hit when you got to WoD and that was mostly because I have just done Frostfire too many times and you basically leave Draenor as you get there, the linearity of Draenor makes it really annoying in repeat playthroughs. They fixed that in Legion/BFA by letting you swap your starting zone though BFA feels much weaker considering you only get half the zones based on faction.

All quest design aside, the major selling point of Vanilla was as (one of the) guy(s) you're arguing with in his original post put it >They spent 5 years on the leveling zones and it showed, each of them were full of content that made sense for the world
You were in a game world you were familiar with from WarCraft, getting to explore it for the first time. It's really beyond me why they chose to throw all of that out of the window and make every expansion its own themepark island somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

And that aside, you're effectively just saying that you chose not to do any of the things people liked about the game. You just didn't want to. Isn't that on you?

You could literally level most of the way to 60 by AoEing mobs with Blizzard as a mage without doing a single quest outside some select ones you maybe wanted to do for rewards. If you choose to do that, it's your choice.

>I don't get how such a unique concept for a genre can be so uninnovative and samey.
gameplay and limitations due to technical and financial limitations, it's not that complicated

gameplay and scope*

> I also never felt obligated to step foot into a dungeon
Have fun with shitty greens for a while. You seem like a fucking inbred from the reply chain, user.

>And that aside, you're effectively just saying that you chose not to do any of the things people liked about the game. You just didn't want to. Isn't that on you?
See here's the thing, the game never pushed any of the group aspects onto you besides maybe the occasional quest, even then its a quick general chat "hey anyone doing this" and you are on your way. I never felt obligated to actually go out and find dungeon groups because I leveled past them with quests fairly easily. It was a buzzkill to stop what I'm doing and sit around saying LF1M Tank X. Then people leave, then people get lost on the way there if you recruit in a capital, and groups dissolve with all that time being spent really just standing around.
The reason I bought WoW is because I cared about WC lore as a kid and really enjoyed WC3 as I'm sure a lot of people did. Most of the quests did nothing to expand upon the world, where do you think the jokes about collect 10 bear rumps started?

Beats sitting around for 30 minutes hoping I can get a group together, then hoping I even get drops in the dungeon, then outleveling all of that in like an hour anyway.

What game looks cool af

>in an hour
a hearty kek was had

>Most of the quests did nothing to expand upon the world, where do you think the jokes about collect 10 bear rumps started?
Might just be me but that's something I loved about it. I wasn't supposed to be Thrall or anyone that mattered. Just some random faggot doing busywork.

It's not all about the happenings. You're not slaying Lich Kings all the time. It's a living world and there's a lot of minor things happening like whatever was going on in Duskwood. The current WoW on the other hand is all about solving potentially world-ending situations with everyone ready to suck your dick as soon as they see you're because you're just that amazing a hero.

Kind of a recurring problem with current MMOs. You play with thousands of other people in what is effectively a giant single player game where everyone is the MC.

Yeahokay, I forgot Vanilla WoW is actually a 400 hour adventure game full of the best things ever made and if only we could just play it again.

You actually are the chosen one though, you're an Ascian that left the major council in protest of the summoning of Zodiark and led the counter-summoning of Hydaelyn and became her chosen across all of the split stars
Games still shit though

I don't think you understand the appeal of MMOs whatsoever.

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heck yeah nexus was my jam

too bad it worked for basically all of the reasons that aren't achievable nowadays
>constant sub-1000 playerbase
>limited exchange of player information through out-of-game channels
>massive delegation of what would normally be fixed/npc game mechanics (classes, guilds, city establishments, etc.) to actual players

those were truly the golden days

>Fetch Quests are deep and meaningful because it builds the world.
There were some good stories within Vanilla WoW, it also had it's fair share of meme stories and references (like Linken), but it was mostly just filler that provided no context or substance.
I agree that having a world ending threat every other week is shallow and stuff like Legion leading into BFA is laughably bad because we've gone from spaceships back to troll mudhuts, but there is no way you can just keep everyone as a lowly adventure in a setting like that.
And I feel the same about you, almost like it's subjective.

It also makes sense if you're gathering 10 bear asses to make a suit of bear ass armor thats better then your shitty tattered 10 levels old armor.

It also matters that these quests gave you fucking money so you could buy your skills, i'd gladly farm 10 bear asses if I can buy my next rank of fireball.

>Mostly just filler that provided no context or substance

Brainlet detected.

Collecting Zhevra Hooves gave me a deeper understanding of the harsh realities of the Barrens and the noble heritage of the orcs.

Yeah the concepts behind that game are cool as fuck except paying money every time you die is faggot tier gay and the demo for swordplay they showed looked like absolute shit

Mark Jacobs is making a successor called Camelot Unchained

Sorry Thrall didn't manefest out of nowhere to kiss your ass for gathering 4 zevrah hooves for a hunter.

>but it was mostly just filler that provided no context or substance.
It was. Like in practice it much of it was just the game telling you to stop and grind mobs for a bit with the added quest exp reward for doing so.

Having tried most MMOs that came out after 2006, I've come to loathe heavily story-centric MMOs. It's really fucking dull when the entire leveling experience revolves around doing some main story questline that spans the entire way from level 1 to max and contains a million cutscenes.

I really prefer to just walk around and grind stuff, for either levels or better items, while exploring the world. Many current MMOs have interesting combat systems that actually make that fun. It's the same appeal as in Dark Souls. You just explore and get dripfed some lore here or there. As opposed to basically reading WORDSWORDSWORDSWORDS about it while watching cutscenes as the game stuffs it down your fucking face.

DDO actually. And it's a very good game. However its business model is so cancer it killed what was left

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That's a reflection that I think gacha games take advantage of a lot. If you were to take the examples of posts in this thread (eg, making it so events are timelocked/limited) you'll get a similar feeling of that. It'll just lead to people blacklisting you no matter what because you don't have x or weren't around for x.
I'm not saying elitism is bad, I'm just saying you'll get an eventual split of players segregating based on sekrit clubs. Again, that's not a bad thing because it'll happen anyway, but when you have that limited time event stuff all over the place and they're big time events, you'll have way more and player trust will be even lower, no one will want to work with newer players and newer players will be forced to play alone or form their own groups, and I can tell you out of my own experience (mainly because I've played so many MMOs where that's been a thing) that I have never grouped with random people at all. I have never joined a clan or group, even stuff like a trader group. I don't know what its like to play an MMO with other people apart from just running across them in the wild and maybe we'll fight the same enemy or something. That's it. That's what MMOs are. Just singleplayer worlds that have everyone else playing their own singleplayer game or are with friends.

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Yes well that's where RS strikes a balance between the singleplayer/multiplayer dichotomy

There are quests you do solo, but there is a lot of content you can't really do solo (unless you're retardedly good) such as bosses and raids

>I really hope this doesn't happen to PSO 2 when it comes out next year.
Just play it on JP already.

No one I play with stopped playing because of the announcements and most people don't give a shit about it. No one expects anything less than a complete disaster. They can't localize the collab because they don't have licenses for shit like YuruYuri and no doubt they'll find all kinds of ways to butcher the game by censoring the lewd outfits and whatnot.

You'll find people to play with just fine. I started like two years ago and I had no problems playing with people who had played for years like a month or two after I started. Getting your gear up to the current standards is no problem and the older players don't have any real advantage in that regard.

I'll give the NA version a chance but I'm going to play both whatever happens. Or just JP.

Raids are a reletively new thing though, all OSRS bosses were soloable.

Lets be honest, runescape became a singleplayer game when they started to pander to the solo self found meme.

Emet-Selch dies, Elezenos gets his old body back, Minfillia receives her own identity as a redhead and gets named Ryne, The Crystal Exarch is G'raha Tia from the future where the Black Rose is unleashed. You're probably the shattered remnant of an ascian, Zodiark and Hydaelyn are primals, and the barmaid in the Crystarium is revealed to be a hero of the 13th shard or whatever when you do all the role quests

FF14 is a fucking joke of an MMO, endgame is literally glamour, combat is a DDR minigame, everything else is singleplayer

the issue with MMOs is that they get stale really fast once you do all the content you can at your skill level
a good future MMO would have heavy sandbox elements, and it would have dedicated community masters who use these sandbox elements to run very small barely organised events like an invasion of goblins into a town to a weeks long siege of a major city by an npc faction
essentially these community masters would be dungeon masters running a fuckhuge dnd game in the form of an mmo
if you had enough sand in the box, and enough ways to use it, you wouldn't even really need to update the game as the dynamic content created by community masters would keep the game engaging

This game was awesome but inevitably the retarded meta-moveset(s) came about and its absolute lack of content killed it

FF14 gets boring too fast after you do the short Savage content

>But why are MMOs so trash? You think that by now people would have figured it out right?

You want a good game.
They want a profitable game.

Look up Camelot Unchained

You're right but still

>What do MMOs do now that you hate?
i've afked through enough "content" to unlock a new tier of my buzzword item in WoW so i did the questline and big surprise void tentacles and void beasts and void horrors and it's going to destroy the wooooorld
i miss being a knight or holy warrior fighting dragons and orcs

it's even more ridiculous when i'm the mega-hero and STILL required to collect 8 bear asses in the newest expansion and have to suffer peasants giving me the stink-eye like BITCH i'm the most powerful hero in the world right now
don't build me up to be the hero and then shit on me

GIVE ME RAGNAOK OR GIVE ME DEATH

Here is Tree of Savior.
Keep the change, kid.

Let me reverse time to about 2009 and then have LOTRO continue its original developmental philosophy from before F2P. I still have fun with it but damn were SoA and Moria/Mirkwood fantastic...

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>interesting combat systems
USEless BULLshit
Involved combat systems only distract yourself from multiplayer!!
AUTOATTACKS ONLY
then! - you will speak

... fuck action bars... fuck double enter ... and fuck rotations! focus on people ONLY

i like FF14

not just speaking about Endgame. leveling different jobs with each of their own stories tied to them, making a quick gil fishing, managing your GC squad, gambling in the gold saucer, collecting triple triad cards to stand a chance in tournaments, learning about the different beast tribes through their dailies (as a former WoW player i never thought i'd get enjoyment out of anything daily related), people are very friendly, collecting glamour stuff and so much more.

It's a pretty game with a beautiful soundtrack and such a treat for any final fantasy fan. People get too caught up in the endgame to appreciate the full package. Endgame stuff is fun too but there's so much more to just have a comfy day playing.

Only real complaint i have is that it starts off too slow combat wise and some MSQ filler quests although that might be fixed soon.

Know that whoever you are, you are my eternal nigga.
I miss my Dwarf Minstrel and Human Captain every day.
Shadows of Angmar/Moria were the best MMO I've ever played and F2P is so disgusting in how it ruined the entire game.
Also the PvMP was my jam. I could write a thesis paper on all the cool shit Lotro had to offer.

>All my fond mmo memories come from being some low level to mid level scrub and relaxing with friends around a literal campfire while someones playing an instrument they composed music on.
I've always wanted this ever since I was first exposed to dot hack, and now it seems that sort of player is drowned out by the masses that are just looking for a second job. PSO private server is the closest that's come to fulfilling that sense of teamwork, community, and socialization within a game that offers more than just grinding.

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>a mangled version of runescape from 2007 that incorporates design from the nu-mmo modern era is the best mmo currently available

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artist name? Reverse google image just shows a bunch of Yea Forums threads

imagine the jewconomy

iqdb it dummy
21yc, rumor is he was disappared by the chinese government

Ultima Online, before the Felucca/Trammel split, was the pinnacle of MMO's and the best MMO ever made and you can't change my mind so don't try. the things you could do in that game were great because most of it was emergent gameplay fueled by player actions. catering to people who never wanted to pvp or didn't want to be subject to crime in general, who were frankly better off playing single player rpg's, was the real death of these kinds of mmo's. Everquest, WoW, and all the other theme park bullshit stemmed from this decision. Now, because there are "safe" mmo's to play where you choose how you interact with the world rather than adapt to chaos, there will never be an mmo like that that is popular ever again

They should really have just released it globally, with an English language option for the JP client, and added some containment servers for foreigners. Nobody really wants an NA version at this point. They'll play it, but it'll be on life support pretty quick, be starved for content, and likely get shut down within a year or so.

Mabinogi had the same kind of thing happen between NA and EU.

If I wanted to spend like $300 or something on commissioning a porn picture of this quality, where the fuck am I supposed to go then?

It’s unironically a decent grinder nowadays.

no idea, never commed, I just sail the high seas looking for good art

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>But why are MMOs so trash?
>You think that by now people would have figured it out right?
There are a couple of problems.

The first is that every MMO has tried to copy WoW since it came out. Yes, this gets repeated endlessly, but it really is an important point. Everybody saw the cash cow and success that WoW did, and so attempts to be the next WoW. Even a bunch of smaller games or MMO ideas are just attempting to copy WoW, or just assume that players will be repeating the same ten boring quests until they hit max level just like WoW did. Until you can break yourself from the MMO = WoW concept, you are never going to make a good MMO. You're just going to make a WoW clone, with less funding and thus less impressive than WoW did.

The second problem is kind of related to the first. Nobody has original ideas. Everybody just thinks "WoW, but with X different". This results in pretty much every MMO turning into a WoW clone, if accidentally. Think of how many other MMOs came out with original ideas or novel game elements, but it was still just taking quests fifty times until you level up and move to the next area to do it again. Everybody is scared about making something less popular and so everybody just remakes WoW, even if they don't want to or intend to, because they'd rather have a weak game slide into failure than chance the entire thing bombing right from the start. At least people know that players will play a cheap WoW clone, even if just for a bit.

I have very particular tastes I can't find anywhere

Third, MMOs traditionally suck. No, seriously. The idea is neat but the implementation means dumping hundreds of hours into minimal gains. The concept needs to be reinvented, not copied. A big reason why EverQuest died out is because WoW did the thing that EQ did (grinding quests for EXP and materials) and turned it into more of a game. People liked WoW because turning the material grind into a fun team fight system was more enjoyable. The fact is that MMOs really need content, not in the sense of volume but the sense of something worth doing. And that might be the biggest problem: nobody has the time to create thousands of hours of character dialogue or interesting missions and then charge even $5/month for it. There's a reason that every MMO is just generic wolf-ass fetch quests over and over again, perhaps with some PvP at the level cap to keep people interested. Because that's the only way to keep people playing, and keeping people playing is the only way to generate enough money to pay for these things. I mean, just look at the successful MMOs remaining. They are still just grinding for loot, not because MMOs are about grinding, but because that's the only thing that can keep players interested after they've played through the ~20 hours of content that the last expansion provided.

>What do you miss about old MMOs?
I just want the feeling of discovery and adventure back, where exploring a new zone or new dungeon was exciting and enjoyable. I also want the community who wanted to do those things and who would happily group up for some hard quests or a dungeon.

Nowadays it feel like exploration is dead as you simply follow the quest GPS and try to get it done as quickly and efficiently as possible and grouping with randoms only happens if it's strictly necessary, plus you may even have tools to automatically find people for dungeons and shit so you get a purely random group which breaks up immediately after. It feels like neither the game nor the people really want you to enjoy the world anymore. Maybe game design has really changed, or maybe I've just lost my childish naivete from my early MMO days and things aren't as exciting anymore.

Just make D&D but online.

Random Encounters are the norm, instances are non-existant, and ruins rarely respawn with monster and treasure to be found by adventurers, start small as an indie project, and expand out, and focus on group play, not solo grinds.

user I mean Dungeons and Dragons Online exists.

God I wish that were me

>instances are non-existant
bingo. problem solved right there.

Right now we need to see a revival of co-op ORPGs, you'd think that with WOW just being a linear dungeon blitz game you'd see people scrapping the hard to develop MMO aspect of the genre and just create co-op dungeon crawlers.

DDO is nothing like actual dungeons and dragons.

Except it's such easy bait for micro-transactions companies can't resist.
Look at how awful the Loot and Shoot genre has been for years.
I would kill for a dungeon crawling game with like 4 player co-op, a soft trinity, boss fights and gear collecting and all that. Slap on a map editor and letting people build some offshoot dungeons and all that. Let people in on the development and their autism will carry through any content droughts.

Doesn’t really work in practice with modern MmO. Seriously world bosses in most Kmmo suck dick compared to instance ones.

Try this OP

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Hello? Modules exist.

Imagine if they made a D&D style dungeon crawling ORPG where people could make and sell modules through a store and the developers take a cut off the top.

that's mega gay
it was gay when WoW heroes went from "adventurers" to THE CHOSEN DEMI-GOD-GOD GOD-SLAYER SUPERFRIENDS!

I played it when it was free, but $40

what's a good mmo bros

>

ok

what's an mmo that isn't ffxiv that i can burn out some of my life on

The Runescapes, both 3 and OS, are the type of games that you never quit. Right now I'm afk grinding out 200m range in rs3.

OSRS, FFXIV and WOW clones in general are terrible since all your invested time ammounts to nothing in 6 months since a new patch invalidates all your progression.

Runescape is eternal.

The gaming landscape changed. Back in the day, MMOs were unique because you were able to play online with potentially anyone in the world. In an era where online multiplayer in games was almost exclusively used for shooters, this was a huge novelty. They were also much more organic and designed around player interactions and the stuff that would emerge from players and the tools that they were given. It was more about the adventure of braving the unknown of a new world with your friends or whatever strangers you found where the whole game was the game rather than a boss rush loot farm at the end and the rest is just window dressing.

They were also much more unknown. The worlds were unforgiving and exploring them alone was treacherous. Before datamining you had to actually do or see something before anyone knew about it or how mechanics worked. That style of game that was designed around player communication and interaction, you know, that thing that MMOs were unique for, has been chipped away at over the years under the guise of "quality of life" improvements so that casuals might give it the time of day in an effort to get a few more subs and make more money.

Casuals didn't like aimless grinding of mobs to level up so modern style instanced dungeons became a thing to break up the monotony. Its still mindless grinding but now the venue has changed as you move from dungeon to dungeon. They didn't like being forced to group up with players to progress since the game should revolve around their schedule rather than a world that lives and moves on without you, so MMOs became solo friendly and quest centric so players could advance at their own pace. Then casuals got tired of having to form their own groups/travel to the dungeon so modern matchmaking dungeon finders became standard. Then those dungeons were too hard because any smoothbrain monkey could click the "find group" button and now all that content is piss easy and doable in your sleep.

Every time I get curious and think about trying an MMO, I remember that it'll probably shut down in a few years and I'll never be able to play it again.

>What do you want to see in an MMO?
I want an MMO that is built around player interaction and not based just off how many hours you have invested. This would have to include making a world that feels alive and needs players of different skill levels.

>What do MMOs do now that you hate?
They're literally all guided theme parks that escort you from set piece to set piece

>What do you miss about old MMOs?
Not much, most haven't come close to getting it right. Usually the old MMOs were either to complex or too watered down, there was never a good balance.

>Create periods of time where an event happens with several raids/dungeons etc and once their done thats it. Those who were there were *really there*.
Guild Wars 2 did that and it was a disaster. The Karka island bullshit is just about the last thing I remember doing before dropping that game completely. It was an event that was supposed to only run once, took hours to complete, gave out pure RNG rewards so you could get complete shit or a legendary precursor item. Because they hyped it up as a one time only thing everyone in-game converged to do it and the game wasn't able to hold up with all the people. Everyone doing it caused there to be multiple instances of the zone to be created with the event running to lessen the load but really all it did was cause more people to pile in to create more instances to get the huge loot chest at the end over and over when it was only designed to be looted once.

Something expansive and fun to explore, with actual fun combat and not a pointless loot grind. Star Citizen is really interesting as a concept but it’s obvious to me they have zero idea how to make an actual engaging game

>Why does everyone obsess about end game and raiding now
Tigole raped the entire genre.

Doesn't help that there's more tools to do that externally. The games are more casual and there's no real need to communicate with randoms but even among groups of friends they all spend their time in voip or discord or whatever and making online games complete ghost towns.

Actual active combat. It’s a pipe dream and I’d accept concessions to achieve it but the combat in nearly every mmo is just trash. Also, fuck cooldown timers

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>early access MMO indie game
You're setting yourself up for disappointment. Been down that road and it never ends well.

fuck active combat! AUTO ATTACKS ONLY
nothing else!

Aren't there a bunch of games that have real time combat, even with medieval swords and such? Kingdom Come is a familiar name. Do you want that as a MMO?

Have you tried not playing D&D?
Have you tried doing PvP?

play albion online

>albion online
tell me why i should play it

No. I’d prefer third person action combat. Most of the ones labeled as active combat aren’t actually, but are more like targeting with calculating distance away from an enemy

Action combat is incredibly hard to develop for an MMO, most 'action combat' systems in MMOs are just adhocked from the tab-targeting systems, they just take the same cone AOE mechanics the genre has had for 20 years, and replace auto attacks and targeting with various AOE cleave mechanics, one of the reasons why missile based classes like archers or gunners don't feel good to play, because you're not actually aiming and shooting, you're just randomly spamming missiles in a direction.

If I had my wish though, i'd wish for monster hunter style combat to replace the trash tier trinity we have now.

MMO's are just like normal games, but you shove a number simulator engine that dictates what content are you allowed to experience, and also make it x10 times slower.

Actually, maybe we can describe MMO's as games that everything takes x10 times slower, even if you could create a great and fun MMO that only last 40 hours because the devs actually put resources and effort in the writting/gameplay, that's bad because of the length. MMO's has to be infinite and never end you the players will suicide, which I'm not sure why that's bad a thing.

Fucking this. Thanks for explaining because I was too lazy

Brainlet, writing is not a good thing for MMOs, world building sure, but story driven MMOs are retarded.

You can have an MMO where people want to log on daily because it has a dynamic enough sandbox element to the game, thats the problem with MMOs today, they all follow the wow formula of curated fun, but not even fucking blizzard can keep up with content to keep their playerbase happy anymore, you need a sandbox, or to better put it, a player driven element to the game in order to make it interesting to play long term.

EVE is notorious for this, but the problem with EVE is its notoriously bad, if you took the sandbox of EVE and attached any fucking MMO that came out after WOW to it, it would be an amazing game, but EVE is a fucking rusty fucking dinosaur in terms of game design, the only thing they got right was the player driven dynamic.

There was a Kickstarter for an mmo-like with a good concept - territory control, fully destructible environments and the like, but the world resets and randomly regenerates every week (or some set time)

This was mostly because of lag. If you have two players from different parts of the world, then it's normal to see some sort of lag and you'll likely see the players desynced at some point, resulting in one's position not being where it is shown on another's screen. This is a huge problem in action games, where you'd need to swing a weapon in the appropriate space and so even being a second off, much less half a minute, results in an unplayable mess.

If fights are just hitscan attacks determined by an Evade% and just being close enough to the enemy, though, then this problem mostly goes away. Characters still teleport around due to lag, but it's fairly irrelevant since it doesn't matter where your character is relative to everything else, just what you can hit and what you can't. The only factor really needing fast connecting and frequent updates is the HP bar; everything else becomes cosmetic.

This is a really good point and you’re right. EVE to me is also a bit to much in the micromanagement, number-crunching side

Yeah, this is a big problem in PVP MMOs, but honestly the tech could be developed on a PVE MMO where player desync doesn't matter as much, and the netcode can be improved and developed over time, though I do have horror stories of playing MH3G and teleporting brachydios was fucking nightmare fuel.

>tech could be developed
rev up your quantum entanglement

Lag compensation is a thing user, and a major part of how MMOs operate under the hood, but right now only tab targeting MMOs are optimized because they're the only ones that have been made over the past 20 years.

MMOs became trash the second they became more about the loot treadmill and grinding and less about immersion.

A big part of lag compensation is putting the models and physics engine on the client side of things, and in some prediction in what a player is going to do between client-server updates. As in, if a character model is running straight ahead, it's a good guess that they'll keep running straight ahead, so it'll so them moving straight in your game even if that isn't exactly what they are doing in theirs. It's why laggy characters appear to "skip" or jump around a lot: the actual-location will update on your screen and it'll be different from what your client MMO software thought was happening. The laggier everything gets, the less frequent these updated locations can happen and so the larger the apparent skipping or jumping around.

This doesn't mean much if all characters just start automatically attacking when the enemy is nearby, and everything is determined by stats. But it is a huge factor in an action game and basically breaks the entire thing if it is trying to be competitive. Compensating for lag is not going to solve the problem. The fact that you need to compensate for lag in the first place is an indication that the lag is going to be a problem anyways.

Having content locked behind a story is fucking gay. I remember playing a shit ton of f2p Korean MMOs, being dropped in the game, being given a quick rundown on the lore at most (or you had to read that shit online), then you just do whatever the fuck you wanted. There were quests with storylines, but all of them were optional and made you feel like a part of the world rather than the center of it. Do any MMOs do this anymore?

Yeah, but if you're going to create a game with non-tab targeting combat that isn't adhoc with cleave mechanics, you'll also probably have a slower base game to begin with.

>Mechanical complexity dumbed down for mass appeal
>Convenience tools which allow players to go through the whole game without needing to communicate
>Excessive layering and instancing, makes the world feel like it's cut up into pieces rather than being a huge persistent world
>The focus being on the destination rather than the journey (especially with level boosters)
>Terrible stories which are written by hack 'creative' types like Christie Golden, rather than being player driven
>The game treating the player like they're the chosen one

One of the biggest problems for me with modern MMO design is that they try to make all of their content accessible to everyone, rather than having different content for different skill levels. Modern WoW raids are basically daycare centers where you're given participation awards for showing up.

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Probably why I've been having way more fun getting every job to ShB content and grinding dungeons so much. Haven't even touched end game stuff yet and don't need to.

Link?

they can make good mmos its just mmos are kind of a dying/dead genre, there isn't as much money in them as there was when we were kids

Yeah. All of this shit bothers me and has kept me away from MMOs mostly.

Considering how easy it is to gear, practice a tad, and join a teaching group, its not hard at all.

There are actual mechanics to raids in gw2 besides just whacking it, holding agro, not standing in fire. Admittedly, a lot of mechanics can be some up with a few basic criteria.

>Elwynn Forest was chill as fuck.

This. Goldshire to me is as much a place as any real life location.

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I just looked it up and found it for the first time since seeing the Kickstarter campaign years ago. I have no knowledge of the project outside of the original pitch: Crowfall
kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo