>First game starts off ridiculously easy
>Levels are simple to traverse and all readily visible from several vantage points
>Jiggies mostly require the application of a single move to an interactable on a level
>Multiple step puzzles reward multiple jiggies
>Minor collectibles literally sitting out in the open
>As the game progresses jiggies become increasingly more demanding to unlock
>Combinations of moves, moves used multiple times, or moves used correctly/in limited timespan become more prevalent
>Minor collectibles still sit out in the open, but more and more are in hazardous areas that demand you put effort into 100/100
>Later levels require at least some backtracking, as you may need the running shoes for Mr. Vile, and WILL need the running shoes for Boggy and the jiggy just outside freezeezy
>Later levels become increasingly complex, requiring the player to keep track of where doors lead, dividing the world into subzones to keep track of things, and exploring in depth as a vantage point can only reveal the general layout and not every nook and cranny of the level
>Final world is the culmination of this difficulty increase
>Jiggies are either mechanically demanding or treks that require you complete actions correctly in multiple seasons to receive a jiggy, as well as requiring that you finished the Gobi puzzle from Gobi's valley, traversing the world is a demanding climb up the tree where one hit can send you falling to your death, and the minor collectibles are on this dangerous path, in snapping plants, and otherwise not just handed out like earlier worlds
>Culminates in a test of your knowledge of the game before a bossfight that tests your proficiency with the games moveset
First game starts off ridiculously easy
>Sequel begins
>Game complexity picks immediately back up from where Kazooie left off, and the difficulty is caught up to by world 3 with the Mr. Patch fight
>Early worlds don't just hand anything out but a handful of notes
>Several jiggies per world require tools from other worlds in order to complete
>Transformations for every world, Mumbo is playable on every world, Bossfights on every world (as well as mini bosses)
>Jinjos have gone from 5 per world to a lofty goal you'll mostly be achieving near the end of the game
>The middle worlds of the game are increasingly demanding in terms of collectibles and level design
>The final 4 worlds are the ultimate test of the skills you've built up to this point, just navigating them is a challenge to your exploration and navigation skills, and most of the jiggies are multiple world adventures that will have you traveling to the far corners of the isle o hags to complete, while some others are the most mechanically demanding jiggies the series ever sees
>Game culminates in a new twist on the test of knowledge and another superb bossfight
What other series feature sequel kino on the level of Banjo-Kazooie to Banjo-Tooie
HARD MODE: No Pokemon Gold or Gravity Rush 2
I gave up when I got to Grunty Industries
You got casual filtered by the best level in the series
For some reason I was given Banjo-Tooie first as a kid, I fuckin loved it, and I still really enjoyed Banjo Kazooie when I got it a couple years later. These games embodied what a 3d platformer should aspire to be. I'm a little nostalgia blind but even going back, I can appreciate a lot of things I took for granted when I was little, like the art direction and music.
While I give Tooie credit for really sticking to the idea of "it's a sequel" and having you literally begin with all of your old moves and just learn new ones, which does give a cool sense of true continuity of the journey (instead of contriving a reason to start from scratch again), it hurts the game in the end because the movelist starts to just get plain fucking stupid.
Also I hate what they did with music note collectibles.
To answer your question, the Tony Hawk Pro Skater games, which just kept dogpiling new mechanics on top of the old mechanics for like 7 generations while never stepping back to remove, rework, or consolidate your move list. By the time of American Wasteland (or Project 8) the game has ballooned into this behemoth clusterfuck of controls that's more or less unapproachable unless you are at least somewhat familiar with the past games, and it doesn't even really bother trying to teach you the stuff you should have learned 3 games back.
To be honest that only thing I find to be particularly excessive is hatch, it's the most shameless and obvious "key for some puzzles" move in the series. It does NOTHING outside of a handful of eggs you need to sit on, and it does even less in the remasters because heggy just auto hatches everything
Banjo's extra solo moves are all pretty engaging and the main moveset never got cumbersome in my opinion. Although I can see how all 3 together feels like a pain in the ass. If I were to make a threeie I would consolidate the good moves into the regular moveset over bringing split up back
the pleb filter
It's more the shit like "upgrade your ground pound to be, like, a better one"
and "oh, this move lets you do stupid bullshit Goldeneye FPS segments. And then there are 3 more moves for that"
And "oh, four different kinds of eggs, for four different kinds of arbitrary egg-matching puzzles"
The separation moves were cool, even if tying them to pads was kind of stupid (no stupider than flight pads, though). As is the ledge grab. I guess shooting while flying and swimming is pretty good too. Honestly, maybe I just remember the worst parts of it.
I've 101% Donkey Kong 64 twice, I just got bored.
Both ground pound moves have applications in Tooie
Goldeneye FPS segments is just Tooie having better and more refined minigames than Kazooie.
Eggs aren't bad at all, stop being retarded
>Separation was good
>Flight pads are bad
Ok I'm speaking to a retard
Uncontrolled flight is shit tier and ruins any level design, go play Yooka Laylee to see how bad it is.
Whoops I meant to elaborate on the ground pound statement
>Beak buster is one of the best combat tools in the game and is the optimal way to avoid falling damage, as well as being one of the moves you need for the cactus of strength
>Bill drill is used for breaking rocks and unscrewing things
Seriously Tooie feels so much worse if you only use Bill Drill. There's a reason it takes 2 millions years to use
What's going on in this thread, guise?
Donkey Kong 64 is the middle ground between Banjo 1 and 2, there's more backtracking but it still takes less time than tooie's backtracking, and its also bigger and Banjo 1
It is the missing link
>"Series of tunnels" level design
>None of the characters are fun to play and their moves aren't enjoyable to use or unlock
>Even if one was fun, it's not like you can play them for more than 1/5th of the game
The problems of this game have nothing to do with the size of the levels
>but it still takes less time than tooie's backtracking
Was the 90s the last time you played these games?
This game is an autism test. I really wanted to like it but none of the characters are fun to play as and doing everything 5 times is a chore
The point is, the secondary ground pound serves no function other than to be a move-shaped key to an obstacle-shaped lock. Good metroidvania design should still hold sway here; new moves should primarily be an expansion to your actual abilities, and impact your overall gameplay experience. Creating a contrived situation where you cannot advance without having that move is a level design problem, but it should not be dictating the expansion of your kit. If the only time a move is useful is when the game has contrived a reason for you to be required to use it to advance, then the game is essentially handing you a "red key card for a locked red door" and dressing it up as an "ability".
That's bad design.
In fairness, BK did this to a certain extent as well, with the power-up "moves" (use running shoes, use wading boots) but Tooie should ideally have moved away from that instead of digging back into it. The main reason there are so many moves in Tooie that exist only to contrive some reason for you to spend music notes to unlock them to advance is because the movelist got so big that there just wasn't anything else reasonable to add. And in the absence of reasonable things to add, they just start adding unreasonable, stupid things instead, to act as a sink for the notes and keep the format going.
That's the problem. In Kazooie, there are puzzles you cannot solve without having the ability to shoot eggs, but the ability to shoot eggs on its own is a useful ability that you are glad to have and which carries meaningful uses outside of combat. Ditto the talon trot; yes, it lets you scale that first walled-off surface in Grunty's Lair, but it's also a highly useful navigation move on its own and you find yourself using it in tons of places where it isn't required to make progress past some arbitrary obstacle.
Do you ever do that with the Bill Drill? Did you ever ONCE use it except when the game contrived a reason for you to be required to?
Aw great, here comes that disgusting neighba of ours, DK64!
>The point is, the secondary ground pound serves no function other than to be a move-shaped key to an obstacle-shaped lock. Good metroidvania design should still hold sway here; new moves should primarily be an expansion to your actual abilities, and impact your overall gameplay experience. Creating a contrived situation where you cannot advance without having that move is a level design problem, but it should not be dictating the expansion of your kit. If the only time a move is useful is when the game has contrived a reason for you to be required to use it to advance, then the game is essentially handing you a "red key card for a locked red door" and dressing it up as an "ability".
>That's bad design.
By that logic the ORIGINAL groundpound is also bad design and the rocks, huts, and pads placed around the levels are contrived reasons to use it
As much as people like to pretend it's not true, there's pretty much no faults that apply to Tooie that don't also hold true for Kazooie.
>Do you ever do that with the Bill Drill? Did you ever ONCE use it except when the game contrived a reason for you to be required to?
With enemies like the evil beehives that move at a million miles an hour it helps to have a lingering hitbox to smack the enemy with
DK64 really needs a spiritual successor. Multiple characters, each with their own unique mini games, powers, and segments was great. Banjo Threeie needs to happen but DKSwitch would be top tier as well.
>By that logic the ORIGINAL groundpound is also bad design and the rocks, huts, and pads placed around the levels are contrived reasons to use it
To your OWN point, it's also a useful tool for breaking fall damage, a helpful attack, etc. You fucking said that shit two posts ago. The game first gives you an ability which is useful on its own, and then contrives obstacles that require it.
That's fundamentally different from giving you an ability which is only ever useful to deal with a few contrived obstacles.
>As much as people like to pretend it's not true, there's pretty much no faults that apply to Tooie that don't also hold true for Kazooie.
Speaking of moves, you're right, if only because the running shoes and wader boots are a part of that same bad design pattern, but the biggest complaint I have about Tooie (and it's not true of Kazooie) is that the levels are far too fucking big relative to the density of stuff that is in them.
No I played it the other weekend, I only stopped because I felt like saving Creepy Castle for October, Donkey Kong's backtracking is easy, all you have to do is go to the tag barrel which takes a few seconds, if you can't see why the characters are actually great to play then you don't have very much tech skill, the only bad character is chunky, but at least he has high lights
Tooie's back tracking consist of finding a stupid dinosaur family, walking to mumbo's cave, using magic on one of them, walk back, become banjo, walk back to the cave, another dinosaur needs magic, but not the DINOSAUR WORLD'S magic, but ISLE O' HAGS magic, so you have to bring that stupid train to dinosaur world, using banjos backpack move on the dinosaur (because of course you were supposed to know that a dinosaur could fit in there, take the dinosaur on the train to isle o hags, go back dino land, let him out, take the train to Witchy World, take that dinosaur on the train, go back the the dinosaur world, go to the family cave, and then finally get ONE jiggy.
That is why Donkey Kong 64 is better, the sense of progression in Tooie can go from taking 10 minutes to get a jiggy, to an hour, Donkey Kong 64 you would have collected at least 4 golden bananas by then, yes the character restriction is retarded, but the game is very generous with tag barrels, to it really isn't hard.
I never ran into that, but okay. How about the ice eggs? Did you often spend a lot of time using your ice eggs for any reason other than some puzzle which arbitrarily demanded you have ice eggs? Or those remote-control chicken walker eggs?
So, would Conker's be Wacky Deli?
>Cherry picking the most involved jiggy in the entire series
Ooooh boy. It's one of these.
The fall damage thing is an unintended mechanic and in Kazooie all the attacks do the same amount of damage and there's only one enemy that takes multiple hits IIRC, the bull.
Bull can't be killed period, and Kazooie has several enemies which take 2 hits with weaker attacks but can be one-shot with the ground-pound (black crabs, for instance).
Kazooie also doesn't have nearly as many steep vantage points to accrue fall damage from, whereas every world in Tooie aside from maybe Glitter Gulch has several
So when's Banjo Threeie debuting so it can improve on its predecessors?
Actually that would probably be the pool problem in Jolly Roger's Lagoon, that takes several hours. But that's not the only problem, the problem is bad levels as well, the Dinosaur world is ugly as sin, nobody likes being there, worst part is that its one of the better designed levels, but every where looks ugly and the music sounds like someone is taking a shit, then there's Grunty Industries, the opposite problem, the aesthetic is really cool, but it isn't fun, it really, truly isn't, then when I got to Cloud Coo Coo Land, I gave up, I thought it was unpleasant and retarded. I liked Hail Firepeaks but I still thought it was severely flawed.
The pool problem is completely uninvolved and just fixes itself naturally from going into later worlds. All of the things you need are sitting out in the open 20 feet away from the world entrance.
>the problem is bad levels as well, the Dinosaur world is ugly as sin, nobody likes being there, worst part is that its one of the better designed levels
You are impressively retarded
>Complain about bad levels
>Call the only outright low quality Tooie world "better designed" but just ugly
Wew fucking lad
Is this a meme that everyone on Yea Forums is pretending to like this level now? It's terrible. It's absolute shit. By far the worst level out of any Rare platformer even if you include Yooka-Laylee.
I swear to god you faggots are so fucking pathetic, you will jump at any chance to be contrarian. In a few more months you'll probably be back to hating it because all the other unique snowflakes will have reverted their opinion back to what they think is less popular.
You didn't argue against any point, this is like arguing with a Sonic fan
that wasn't so hard
Keep crying bitch nigga
Underrated but too linear
it's definitely not as great as bfbb but still pretty good
I'm guessing they were all taken away by the aesthetic, I listen to the grunty industry music sometimes, and it looks so cool, but the level is still terrible, except for the boss, Weldar was Kino
>What other series feature sequel kino on the level of Banjo-Kazooie to Banjo-Tooie
Mechanically Tekken. Most fighters swap or change mechanics between sequals but Tekken has basically been fundamentally the same game throughout its entire history, with more and more shit added on each game. It's gotten to a point now where Tekken 7 is so dense that the lack of a tutorial is easily the biggest flaw with the game.
Super Mario Bros 2/The Lost Levels did it better and LONG before BK/BT.
Literally Battle for Bikini Bottom
As a kid I couldn't even figure out how to access most of Kelp Forest.
FUCK i loved tooie when it was new. literally the perfect sequel. it's just such a FUCKING SLOG to replay again.
kazooie is the perfect length with minimal tomfoolery. i play it once a year at least
This fucking game was full of beginners traps, shit game design
for this reason i can always play american wasteland for a few hours, it's so damn good
I would say that was the point of it, and it is the point, but it is shit typical game design.
People wanted a hardmode of mario so thats what they got, nintendo was ahead of the kaizo curve.
which version did you play user
I'm so glad we ended up with Doki Doki Panic, it's a far more interesting game
ps2. I couldn't figure out what to do with a section requiring three stone heads, one was easy to place, but the other 2 were across a swamp and leaf jumps? Could NOT figure out how to get them back.
if you return to the original I recommend the xbox version
better lighting = easier to see kelp forest
and if I recall one of them does require lillypad jumping with patrick
well we have a HD remake to butcher the original so I'll stick around for that.
I'm still surprised it's actually getting a remake
it's rare for a licensed game to get a rerelease let alone a full on remake