MMORPG's are so dead the only new thing to look forward too is classic WoW

Why the fuck are all MMOs fantasy games?

I couldn't care less about another generic fantasy world, yet they always seem to make that.

Why does nobody create their own Sci-Fi MMO?

>best genre
fixed that tor you

why bother making an MMO when you can make a jpeg collection simulator retards can install on their phone to print money for you

this. MMO's were a product of their time. there has never been a good MMO, only nostalgia.

I honestly never get tired of it.

Also Sci Fi sutff existed but died, see wild star.

Crazy times. All the microtransactions going on on gaming but MMO's are dead? I don't understand.

MMOs are too slow for modern gamers that require instant gratification via big explosions and loot boxes

there's like star wars and star trek mmos. and bunch of other shit

Sci-Fi MMOs never really make it desu.

MMORPG's died the moment WoW was released

What do you guys have against ffXIV? Genuinely curious.

i absolutely hate sci-fi. it's for autists who love sterile gamedesign.

>Makes me wonder, are MMORPG's not profitable anymore?
They aren't. That's why the next wave of MMORPGs are funded by crowdfunding instead of publishers, which is a great thing for consumers and developers.
Pantheon - Rise of the Fallen will be the last chance of saving the genre.

You mean Pantheon.

global cooldowns, boring never-ending story quest, too many quests, nu-mmorpg elements like dungeon finder

MMO:
>years to make
>hundreds of millions of dollar
>hundreds of staff

Mobile:
>weeks/months to make
>thousands of dollar, or low 7 figures
>dozens of staff

MMOs are still profitable, it's just that there are bigger fish in the see now. If you were a business why would you ever invest in MMOs?

>Pantheon - Rise of the Fallen will be the last chance of saving the genre.

Then we are fucked

F

I miss Saga of Ryzom
And Star War Galaxies
Everquest 2
City of Heroes

Survival games like Ark replaced it for me, although I still would prefer something more traditional (but conquerable territory to some degree is a must for my mmo)
Amazons New World was lookin gud but I heard they might have shuttered some studios, was New World cancelled? No idea.

Otherwise yeah dead genre unless you're a gook.

implying that classic is not better than no contentbringers

i still just play shitty modern maplestory.

>moaning about new content that is widely received.
>hyped for content people played 15 years ago
You dumb cunt lmao.

>Pve game saving the genre
Yeah right

It definitely won't be Camelot Unchained with it's constant development hell.
Might not even be Pantheon either because Pantheon is going for nostalgia bait and not innovating so it will be the same old shit with a coat of polish.
Won't be Chronicles of Elyria because of feature creep and too big of a scope for such a small team with such a small budget
Won't be Ashes of Creation because that's a battle royale now.
Which leaves use with only one contender: Crowfall.

Their vision sounds great. An MMORPG where you're actually forced to be social if you want to be able to do anything in the game.

I know what all of those words mean! ...separately.

Still pretty new to mmo’s and FF has been my first one. Still enjoying it though

>Literally looking forward to a stagnard content gane

l fucking mao

>Pantheon is going for nostalgia bait and not innovating so it will be the same old shit with a coat of polish.
The devs recently came out and said that this is completely wrong and that they intend to work harder to change that view in people's mind. I don't think it's just gonna be Everquest in prettier graphics.

yeah think about it people are more exited about a game that is more than a decade old then your shitty excuse of an mmo

>No content!
>Wants a game with no content
You can't make this shit up.

This is because every MMO copies WoW. The real game they should be imitating is Eve-Online. WoW is a theme park and once all the rides are exhausted the developers are forced to create new ones. This is both expensive as shit for the developer and boring for the players who either have to be gated via artificial means each expansion by time, grinding or gear checks. Eve-Online creates content by letting you control land and letting the players antagonize each other into years long wars. The problem EVE has right now is the shitty mechanics and ancient play style. Make a game with combat systems as fluid as WoW and land control on a frontier and you have an endless money maker. Hell I guess you could even use some of those insane profits to continue making theme parks in the non-frontier areas for people who hate PvP.

>muh esports
Devs pandering to pvpkeks are what ruin games. Look at what arena balancing did to the classes in WoW. Now every class plays the same and the RPG aspect is gone.

I'm happy for you user, enjoy your game!

Problem is, their combat is atrocious. It's slow, animation look bad and it lacks any depth.

MMORPGS have to share the same pie as MOBAS, Battle Royale and Autochess games desu.. plus it's a shame that most of them are shit (FFXV, WoW, Tera, ESO etc..)

Main culprit is people's attention span is getting shorter. Now you can't expect people to grind unless they're some retarded no lifer neet. People would rather play fortnite for 20 minutes than raid a dungeon that would probably take 2 hours minimum w/ no expected outcome

Attached: 159906127054.jpg (1200x1200, 347K)

Then they should start working no changing everyone minds now since that what everyone thinks the game is. I haven't seen reason to believe other wise. Camelot Unchained may have a ridiculously long dev time, but they sure are bringing a lot of new things to the table.
WoW being shit isn't indicative of anything other than blizzard's greed and incompetence.

social media replaced mmos

>The real game they should be imitating is Star Wars Galaxies.
FTFY

I have legit not seen anyone hyped for classic at all except for Twitter shills with a checkmark next to their name and shills on Yea Forums.

Eve

I'm not gonna judge it yet since they aren't even in closed early alpha. It's a miracle that we get to see anything at all because at this point in the development of any other MMOs you would probably not even know the title of the game yet, let alone see any screenshots or videos of it.

Attached: 1562798090453.jpg (1024x576, 160K)

It's not about the money.. It's the attention economy. MMOs compete against every other use of your entertainment time. Unless games can adapt like Fortnite to where they can include other forms of entertainment inside them (movies, music, reading) they will always lose to options with a lower cost of entry

>People would rather play fortnite for 20 minutes
Too long time. Let me just log in on my phone and roll the FGO gacha and then log out.

i play xiv but cmon man its more of the same thing every expansion

>Make a game with combat systems as fluid as WoW

>wow combat
>*click*
>*click*
>*click*

no game should be copying this crap

It's because it costs a shit load to make a mmo and people who play them generally play only one.

It's good if you treat it as a singleplayer game, but as an MMO it's literally just (a lot) better modern WoW. It's a lot more competently made, but it still suffers the same flaws (no MM or RPG aspects)

Even FF14 is doing well, there is definitely a market.

Problem is the people developing the games try concentrating on things irrelevant to what would make their games successful. They focus on doing some huge variety of features so when people first join they're bombarded with tons of bullshit rather than plain goals like "kill 10 rabbits" or "make a base".

WoW classic made things take time to get around, to do crafting, enchanting could produce twinks, and you had a hugely unfair playing field. You could also build up resist sets to purely tackle certain objectives.

FF14 kept combat simple and has a main quest line you're funneled through for the entire game, you get introduced to everything the game has to offer with it and it's a generally entertaining solo experience with the MMO offers on the side.

Minecraft just plops you down into a sandbox where you can build whatever.

If anything, the problem with modern atempts at MMOs is they go with the mindset that people are impatient and try offering as much as they can, as quickly as they can, when that's the opposite of what people want.

they got boring because nobody tried to progress the design or technology whatsoever and just tried to copy WoW because it was already successful

people got bored and moved onto games that were actually trying to do new things

>clicking
yeah you have absolutely zero say here, retard.

They would be profitable if developers wouldn't insist on making them shit.

Newer games are dead but thankfully there's still older games alive with tons of content. I got back into Mabinogi last month and it's been an absolute blast.

They're not dead, just moved to mobile.

What made Wow fun was that it was it was covering new ground with lots of people. That mmo style grinding was grinding but exciting for everyone because most people had no idea what was going to happen. The cat is out of the bag now, nothing really happens, it's just a game where you grind endlessly and everyone knows it. So that other draw of the game, the community, is also gone. The only people left are those that unironically enjoy the pointless, endless grinding. These are unpleasant people that use the game to suppress other major problems they have in their lives.

Mmos are dead and they aren't ever coming back.

I had a lot of fun on RO back in the day but I don't have time to dump into mmos anymore. Cash shops and shit don't help.

Attached: Female_Novice_(Ragnarok_Online).png (120x120, 5K)

They did, and it was one of the best MMO.

Attached: 2856x2069_px_RF_Online_Rising_Force_Online_robot_warrior-1196362.jpg!d.jpg (1600x1159, 297K)

>MMO
>spend 100h for opportunity to try endgame content
It's just not worth it

the whole point of mmorpgs is the adventure, people wanting to rush to endgame are the reason why this genre is so shit now

How new are you?
Plenty of those existed before
MMO is an old and dead genre my dear zoomer

Too and to aren't interchangeable you demented cumstain.

>new thing
>classic WoW
???

THE ADVENTURE is just a bunch of fetch quests with poor writing.

20k average players
Lmao your game is so dead nobody cares.

My fondest memories were from lvling phase in most MMOs.

Leveling up, getting stronger, learning cool new skills and playing with people you found while lvling or defending yourself against others etc.

>WoW invented MMORPGs
Every time.

This. My favorite parts in rpgs are when you are first starting, getting those first few levels and increasing in tangible power. Muh endgame content is the dumbest fucking shit and mmos need to stop focusing on it.

And before WOW we have even better Adventure. Without quest. Just non-stop mob/skill grind.

>He says whilst devs said theres over 1m active subs before shadowbringers released

lol

Yeah. Funny how RO quest were a better at adventure/lore/immersion than nu-"M""M"O"RPG".

>Archlord dead
>Rift dead
>Archeage dead
>Tera dead
>Kal online dead
It hurts

>better
>Weaboo grindfest

>all those nu-games
who cares

>archeage
Don’t remind me user. The beta for that game and the short time after release were some of the most fun I’ve ever had in an mmo. Why can’t anything ever stay good?

I seriously think Archeage had potential to be a great game, but they absolutely had to go full jew mode.

>retard
>replies with buzzwords
Like clockwork.

>going off steam players when the most popular launcher is the pc launcher.
And forgetting PS4

Youre retarded.

>I only want to play WoW and derivative games forever and never see innovation in the genre

It's not my fault that RO can be described with one word. Or you can proof that this game doesn't build around grinding?

WoW is also a nu-shit

Can proof that this genre doesn't build around grinding?

So, see this

see , retard.

Yes, not only mobile games can generate way more cash with way less effort involved, but most of the old MMO audience just don't have time (or interest) to play these old-fashioned games anymore. Even popular "M"MO titles like WoW, FFXIV, PSO2, DFO, etc. are essentially singleplayer games with multiplayer segments.
In my opinion, this will be the future of online RPGs, always-online singleplayer games with (possibly optional) non-"massively" multiplayer modes, F2P or B2P but always with a cash shop. Games like Warframe, Destiny, Path of Exile, and so on.

Attached: Sucks.png (231x260, 132K)

MMORPGs were continuously loaded with more and more and more busywork while shafting social aspect further and further away. At certain point said busywork became one most important element of any new MMO: do that this many times, advance to next task, repeat.
And at this point, it was easy to win people over by offering them same shit, but with all/most of busywork being done for you, since even dumbest people get tired of repeating things again and again and again. Sadly, in eyes of population, MMOs are now associated with grind so hard, it's easier to do Nintendo and invent "new" genre than trying to salvage "MMORPG".

You may dislike it, but auto-combat mobile game is final step in the evolution of any game that includes dailies and immense amount of grinding.

This trash should've never been alive in the first place.
>"massive multiplayer" is a joke with EVE Online being the only exception
>99% are shit mechanically
>100% have shitty RPG system
>retarded subscription system
>boring grind
>half-assed PVP
MMOniggers must be gassed.

Attached: 1522700107246.png (625x773, 127K)

Wow invented grinding? Or endgame content? Or you just spent hundreds of hours in RO for no reason, just to see your numbers grow

I feel you bro shit was nice.

I remember I had a neighbour from the opposing faction, that always shit his pants when I was around as I could potentially 1shot him, took a few days but we became friends even though we couldn't communicate, he always greeted me via emote when we met, cute as fuck.

Where is your reading comprehension, bro? Do me a favor and go grind high school before posting again.

>genre that pushes the boundaries of the internet
>a new age of social interaction during the early new millennium
>"shouldn't exist"
Fuck off, you retarded zoomer. And take that self-portrait with you.

It just depends on the mmo. I also love the leveling process btw.

Take a full sandbox like EVE. The endgame is dynamic, the players fight over territory endlessly. Take a hybrid like DAoC. You can level up and PvE in safe zones exclusively and the PvP and endgame is contested territory and semi dynamic that the factions fight over constantly. The PvE stuff also bleeds into the PvP zones as well.

That's what's missing from WoW. There's no dynamic or even semi dynamic part to the end game. You can PvP (which was mostly removed from the world by BG rewards) and end game raids. The raids are great but the content gets exhausted.

There's no reason why you can mix all this together though in the future.

Maybe mmos died because they suck.

>WoW invented MMORPGs
It's your words, not mine.
Here is mine.
RO is shitty grindfest for stupid weebs.

dumb newfag

>there's no reason why you can mix all this together though in the future
Only profitability. With the budget and time you need to invest to make the ultimate MMORPG you can develop and release one or two dozen of turds (phone games and/or the new fads).

Pretty sad, since now "we" have the technology to make them happen without gay stuff like time dilation.

>get called retard with no reading comprehension
>reply with a post confirming it
Good job, son.

If mmos are dead why is FF XIV wildly successful after Shadowbringers? Hell game is fun too I got about 280 hours in it now and still have a lot of content left, just now touching the old raids like Alexander with some fc friends.

Scifi MMOs mostly end up being scifantasy games because devs usually want to include all possible game styles, which ends up making melee viable through pretty much magic.
There have been a couple of shooter-scifi-MMOs but from what I know they're all fucking dead. Or if you don't want to go the classic MMO route, EVE.

Good arguments. RO is still shit, and you can't deny it.

This is the answer. MMOs are still profitable - it's just that mobile garbage is even more profitable. Don't you all have phones?

I guess KotOR was a sci fi mmo but it played exactly like fantasy ones

RO is weeb Runescape, shitty grindfests with trash gameplay

Sci-Fi MMOs never take off because all of people that would play them were permanently assimilated into EVE a decade ago.

I didn't want to get into the money/profitability side of this. I understand all that. But disruptors always come along and flip everything on its head through innovation. The things we cannot see yet.

Getting convince to play WoW again was the final redpill for me
>resub
>level a character in two days
>gear up in a week
>end up doing fucking daily/world quests because hurr you need to do meaningless shit if you want to fly
>raid twice a week with some friends, it's okay but nothing stellar
>do PvP in the same fucking battlegrounds that existed since forever
The game developed into doing chores just after a week, shit's fucked if your game's like that.

I must be playing WoW wrong because I don't click in combat.

Attached: 1564457273669.jpg (750x593, 51K)

FFXIV is barely an MMO. It's really just a good single player JRPG with multiplayer instanced content.

It's still pretty good i feel. I play it on and off every few months doing sunken cargo ships with a couple of friends.

Naval fights are incredibly fun, especially now that they found a way to mitigate the gear gap with Hiram.

Every MMO is like that. You can't make fun MMO without destroying balance.

Brand recognition, nostalgia bait, large amount of JRPG-like content (story-driven singleplayer segments, both playable and cutscenes). The game isn't popular because it's a massively multiplayer RPG, it's popular because it's a JRPG made by SE. Remove the Final Fantasy component and the game would just die in less than a year.

If you make a good mmo though it’s wildly more profitable than an app unless you make like a really addicting gacha game (surprised final fantasy doesn’t have one yet). Plus, companies like Square Enix make big products like mmos not because of the money but because they genuinely care about their company’s reputation, it’s a fame over money deal

They are profitable, that's a large part of the problem. Mmos with a reasonable user base used to make money, but not vast swathes of it. Now that's not enough, they've seen that they can make retarded amounts of money, and with little to no effort to boot, and will not be satisfied with anything less. Mmos that cater to a relatively small dedicated user base don't really exist anymore, those that remain faithful to their game and world even less so, and now that cash shops and lootboxes are a thing no one will make an mmo without them.

Mmos are dead because of greed, of chasing large audiences, of designing psychological manipulation instead of designing a fun game, and a whole host of other things.

>I didn't want to get into the money/profitability side of this
But that's the root of the problem. Making your dream MMORGP would be really expensive and nobody will invest in a low return really expensive project.

As a mmo it does a lot of things right as well man. Having daily roulettes that reward player a ton of experience for running old content with new players is something games like WoW could wildly benefit from

Again, nu-MMOs are basically shitty single player phone games with some co-op dungeons.

Keep defending your trash weeb game lol.

Not all companies are like Square Enix where they actually care about making a project instead/along with the bottom line, and it's one of the things that I can count my blessings for in this industry that they do exist.

it comes down to this basically
>try to make unique, new mmo that fundamentally changes gameplay (bdo, dcuo, skyforge, dragon nest, vindictus)
>gets handled poorly and fails because nobody cared in the first place

>make the same shit everyone else is making
>impossible to get handled poorly since the formula is already written out for you
>people play because its familiar
>succeeds

>every dev and publisher takes option 2 since its easier
>mmo genre is now stale garbage like it has been since WoW came out since everyone is trying to copy eachother

only exceptions are warframe (if you wanna count that) and final fantasy.

Ascent infinite realm finna BTFO all mmos

youtu.be/jH6OFuCWdHo

Attached: maxresdefault.jpg (1280x720, 210K)

Agreed, the fact that I didn't even have to talk to a single person on my server since who the fuck needs servers anymore lmao didn't help with the social aspect. A ton of people I've stayed in contact for years were fuckers who I just randomly met in the world multiple times.

Oh I know man. It’s why I prefer Japanese games Western games are more money driven when games made in Japan tend to be more driven by reputation.

My brother, I can't explain why I truly loved rfo but it was comfy as fuck. It was grind central, you were always broke if you played solo cause you spent all your money on fucking potions to let you grind stuff not below you, you got ganked the shit out of by level 50s with nothing you could do about it.
But idk man, it was nice, grouping up with a bunch of strangers to farm ace crawlers or some shit was comfy.

>>make the same shit everyone else is making
>>impossible to get handled poorly since the formula is already written out for you
>>people play because its familiar
>>succeeds
More like
>people play because it's familiar
>it's just like WoW but with more bugs and less polish
>everyone leaves after a month
>game dies half a year later or goes F2P

Lazy devs that don't want to take risks.

MMORPG genre have no limits in terms of what you can do but instead they stick to the fucking wow garbage formula or the Korean pay 2 win with endless grind.

Remember RO? back in the day of people playing with 256kb/s RO was pure freedom in terms of doing shit.

Now we have follow the quest marked and get babysitted the whole game until you are "forced"to pay real money so you don't get fucked by some asshole who spent 1000 dolars in his PJ.

>ff
>exception
It's literally the textbook example of your second point

>warframe
This is not an mmo, it's a coop game

Games focused on world PvP will be niche because they'll become very harsh for new players unless there's virtually no character progression and a game focused on instanced PvP will end up being e-sports that barely represents MMOs as a genre.
Only a PvE game can "save" MMOs.

Final fantasy took off because it didn’t completely rip off WoW

>Korea MMO
Definitely

Yep yep, as I said, I understand. You're focused on that alone right now and in a negative kind of way. I'm trying to make a point about good games with good gameplay, not chasing after the masses money with the minimal amount of effort. That doesn't ever change. They'll move on to something else next, the next latest fad etc etc. I definitely don't want to focus on that. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy that will take care of itself. Seen it before, will see it again.

>Tfw FFXIV is the best MMO of 2019
youtu.be/Xt_zGmu7B0w

Attached: shadowbringers.png (1920x1080, 2.66M)

This.
You just can't compete with mmos that have years worth of updates.

Part 2

And yes FFXIV could be ten times a better game if they dropped the console version so we could have ;

Better textures
More open world content
Open world cities
More complex dungeons
Better mechanics
More custom SHIT

fucking sick of "MUH 3GB LIMITATION PLEASE UNDERSTANDRU"

The white piggu fears the bugman.

>freedom in terms of doing shit
>kill mobs
>sell shit
What a freedom

FFXI: TOAU was the last good mmo. I think no one will touch MMOs because shareholders do not want to spend the time and money to actually develop a game with content and pay for upkeep and hosting of servers. Bean counters and marketing graduates have completely destroyed the idea of product quality and have warped the perception that any game that doesn’t cost as little to make and gross as much money as black ops 2 is a commercial failure. It’s not a coincidence that the most successful and highly praised games of the last several years have been small studio/independent games

Attached: 49282EC3-1499-40DD-ABD2-73F04A77DBBC.jpg (600x740, 177K)

You can when it comes to luring in new players.

>the best rpg of current year is a glorified single player game with some coop bits
I like the game but I hope the next mmo they make is more focused on the mmo part.

Attached: ffxiv_07282019_134125_626.png (500x520, 450K)

I disagree. The visuals in ffxiv look fine and hit the sweetpoint between making the game accessible on old hardware while making it look good.

>Copy paste wow formula.

Name one well made korean MMO that wasn't a total fucking p2w grindfest
I've been burned by this shit too many times now, I now firmly believe that there can be no good korean MMO.

And then those players leave once the novelty of a new thing wears off. That's the point.

A single player rpg with a chat room attached for 15 a month... Congrats you manage to be worse and more casual than wow.

How is that ultimate release coming you casual as shit faggots. It'd really so sad the hardest mode is savage right now in the new expansion. What faggots play this shit? Don't get me wrong it is probably the best written FF in years... But that isn't saying much.

So, it's not a problem of particular game, it's problem of MMO as genre.

>FFXIV looks fine.

Yeah after using Reshade and running it a 1440p so doesn't look like a PS2 game with grey tone colors.

Attached: 16GkyCh.png (1253x1107, 948K)

Ffxiv combat and class system is so fucking garbage that no content release ever could make it worth playing.

PSO2 NA next year
it's finally almost 2013

Attached: pso20190812_114659_000.jpg (1920x1080, 704K)

Kurtzpel

Maybe make a game that doesn't rely on "novelty" and has enjoyable gameplay instead then?

People don't want more complex dungeons though. Even in vanilla people did BRD emperor runs just to skip all the running and go straight for the end boss. Very few people cared about the rest of the dungeon if they weren't trying to attune for Onyxia or do the tier 0.5 quest. All the time and energy spent on making the dungeons expansive and interesting is lost when you just skip to the end

Roulettes only exists because the game is designed in a way that can't keep old multiplayer segments alive for very long. It's a pretty good band-aid fix for a far bigger issue, but it's still is a band-aid fix. Same for Khloe and non-roulette content like EX trials.
XIV's strong points are soundtrack and presentation. Gameplay is serviceable at best, itemization is almost non-existent, and dungeon design is absolutely garbage.

kurtzpel isn't an mmo.

>single player rpg
>literally have to do dungeons with other players to progress unlike WoW where you can ignore the dungeons entirely and play it single player

It's too late.

It's called immersion you dense faggot. You're playing a game where you're a nobody doing small irrelevant tasks for even more nobody people than you most of the time, the fuck do you expect
Every single game is just get from the start to the end, but you don't bitch about that unless it's an mmo.

Attached: 1544377855918.png (766x133, 21K)

Please tell me how WoW has better dungeon design than FFXIV

Attached: CE0F65FD-B36D-4408-B131-0B0658FA5F20.png (590x333, 244K)

>play "old" MMOs (lets say, RO)
>hundred of players everywhere, in fields and dungeons
>WoE full of people, hundrends of players attacking and defending castles

>play nu-MMOs
>single player leveling experience
>"le epic raids" and pvp have less players than a quake 3 deathmatch map
welp

Also RO still gets new doujins every year.

Attached: 76114305_p0.jpg (1480x2071, 2.68M)

Are you seriously missing the point on purpose? Here, let me link you the post that sums it up, you brainlet.

I'm still playing original PSO, so I challenge that
I was just trying JP version with renewed hype, and I think it will be worth it

That's why WoW is implementing a level-sync like system. I'm actually expecting they'll implement dailies to do leveling dungeons with the system like XIV eventually.

People yell when they rip each other off, but they should adopt things from the other game. Harder dungeons like M+ could be adopted in FF and something like deep dungeon could work well in WoW. Even something like Eureka would probably work better in WoW than it did in XIV.

Would you call a game with instanced 4 player dungeons and pvp massively multiplayer?

>XIV forces you to do MP content fully
>In WoW you can skip majority of this anyways

lmao every single time

just play flyff bro

>accessible on old hardware
This is a good point a lot of people miss. Games like Fortnite and WoW are popular in part due to the fact that you can run them on a damn toaster. Accessibility is important when you consider that an mmo lives and dies by its playercount.

Both wow and xiv have shit dungeons. God, do I miss wildstar.

Oh I agree man, mmos should steal from each other

>>Makes me wonder, are MMORPG's not profitable anymore?
Cash shops are always profitable. That's why all MMOs suck now. Just strap together a bare bones mmo and throw in a cash hop, only minimal dev time necessary.

>It's literally the textbook example of your second point
there is just something about the way its fine tuned that makes it play different than most mmos, thats why its an exception

You doing repetetive shit, with shity gameplay and mechanics. At least i expect fun and good gameplay from my games, and not some dick-size race.

>Cash shops are always profitable
lol no they're not, you dummy. Cashshops aren't guaranteed money makers anymore, not when there's a plethora of f2p games on the market.

why make an mmo when you can make a mobile gacha game with microtransactions every 5 minutes

Nobody is talking about WoW, though. WoW isn't even a good example of a MMO (or a good example of anything, really).

Archeage is probably the most MMOish MMO we have currently. It has the same tired formula but with many more options and objectives you can work towards with your friends. Building a castle, selling cargo overseas, doing world bosses only to be killed my people from another nation, killing cat niggers in their own territory and stealing what they were about to sell, you choose.

Newer games should strive to be as sandboxy as AA is, these are the most fun.

Why waste money on an MMO when you can make a mobile game that will get you far more money due to people spending outrageous amounts for jpgs?

They really are, otherwise no one would make mmos anymore.

>People don't want more complex dungeons though
Full of shit, people want long dungeons, they don't necessarily want needlessly complex mazes. Brd is an example of a needlessly complex dungeon in that bosses are all over the fucking place without clear direction or ways to reach them unless you already know the dungeon. Compare it to ubrs, or strat or anything else, the dungeons are still long, but the layout is much better for actually getting to do what you want to do: fight bosses.
If brd had a better layout for doing all bosses without 8 billion years of backtracking and running through shit you've already cleared, people would do full boss runs much more.

Respectability. The only reason Sqaure did it for KH is because they know the series is shit

Are you implying WoW gameplay is actually enjoyable?

>or a good example of anything
To be fair, is a good example of how a fad can kill a whole genre.

This is pretty much the reason. Just make a Destiny or GTA Online or whatever and enjoy the buxs flowing like water with your micros and lootboxes.

>mmo thread
>WoWfats vs FFXIVtrannies
I want you plebs to leave, you are the good example of why nobody wants to play mmos anymore.

Attached: 21312312312123.jpg (900x599, 168K)

The job system is great and the longer gcd is to make you have to think about what abilities you use when instead of mashing buttons like a brainlet in WoW

Wow started the tranny thing and has a larger tranny base by far.

MMOS are not profitable anymore because you have similar games that have all the fun of a MMO but dont require you to spend hours on boring or brain-dead easy content to get to the fun part.
Also GMOD VR chat or all those server based MP survival and build games and similar games basically fill in the gap for player socializing and RP.
MMOS are in essence often RPGs whit shitty combat. that only fill in the niche requirement for social interaction by some players.

Attached: 1553966026211.jpg (749x780, 114K)

So you don't actually want complex dungeons just more than 4 bosses per instance? They're still just straight lines with a few bosses here and there. I don't really see the difference to be honest

He's right tho, WoW players (the players of the only MMORPG zoomer's know) don't want long dungeons. They just want their daily chores (like the best phone games!) to fill some timegated gauge and the random daily/weekly/montly reward (totally not a lootbox). And they have ADHD, so you'll better make these chores short.

>no one would make mmos anymore
They don't. Greedy publishers moved to mobile shit. Remember when there was a new mmo on the horizon every couple months? What mmos are there to look forward to now? A couple korean shits? some crowdfunded stuff stuck in development hell? Wildstar was the last great hyped mmo and it isn't even around anymore. The servers were shutdown last year.

Very few people cared about the rest of brd because loot was shit, not because it took too long and there was too much backtracking. Rare as fuck arena and emperor drops are the reason people bother to run brd at all outside of quest and attunement runs.

mmmmmmm Star citizen lmao

You don't need action combat to make a good mmo.

I still can't believe blizzard made futa draenei horsecock canon.

FPBP
/thread

Where'd you get that idea?

Nobody wants to backtrack more than absolute minimally, backtracking never feels good in any game whatsoever.
But like said, even bosses that don't require a lot of backtracking and only require going out of your way a little bit will simply be skipped if their loot table is pure dogshit

From playing mmos that try to have action combat.

Whatever happened to those MMOs where people built their own cities and did shit like traded and went to war with other cities and shit?

Attached: 1379863696625.png (613x613, 479K)

it is a mmo though. stop being retarded.

Attached: behemoth.webm (800x450, 2.8M)

Sandboxes? They are the best "you think you do but you don't" examples.

I think Chinese destiny looks kind of cool if you wanna count that.

So you want a longer straight line with more bosses, got it. No wonder wow is shit if that's what passes for complexity these days

What games do you consider to have "good gameplay" user?

"People skipping dungeons' segments" is more about the game's shit level and reward design than the lack of interest in proper combat content.
Be it complex mazes or straight lines, people will always optimize their routes. If the developer put all the good stuff in the end of the dungeon, then people will obviously go straight to it.
That is why open dungeons with properly distributed rewards is better than instanced content with worse level design than singleplayer games.

Wow. You can zerg rush world bosses.
Big deal.

Attached: silky smooth 15fps.webm (1000x562, 2.98M)

mmo's need to reinvent to wheel, the old style of healer tank dps is getting old
something more complex involving real team work
In my opinion people are starting to realize that grinding is not as satisfying as it use to be

So basically all we have to look forward to are two croud funding scams. Fuck blizzard for bringing us to this point.

They still exist.

Attached: ark survival evolved.jpg (1920x1080, 470K)

Sandbox MMOs are never good.
The only MMO to even get sandbox right is EVE Online.

The rest have been pure fucking dogshit.

>i want to spend 30 minutes of my time backtracking, walking, doing absolutely no fighting, hurr durr
sunken temple is a much better example of a complex dungeon without 8000 years of backtracking simply because it's more compact and requires solving a puzzle to open a boss and shit
not just /following some cunt and going to make food
also nobody said they wanted a "complex" dungeon, they said they wanted fun dungeons that aren't

>grinding is not as satisfying as it use to be
Grinding is just "relaxing" at best. The deal with MMOs was playing with a lot of people all over the world. It was a new concept and social networks were basically inexistent, so people loved that. If I want to grinding daily to increase some numbers I'd play Cookie Clicker.

Camelot Unchained has gotten more money from investors than crowdfunding, so trying to run a scam isn't really an option.

Good for you but that's not really related to the discussion.

you do all that in a persistent world. it's what makes it a MMO.

Attached: 1519521515.png (1920x1080, 2.22M)

Sure it is. You don't need action combat to make a good mmo.

Not as dead as RTS

Whoa, look at all these people waiting to pull a world boss.

Thanks but no thanks, I'll stick to ESO

Damn, EverQuest aged poorly. That shit looks like some console game.

>MMORPGs were continuously loaded with more and more and more busywork while shafting social aspect further and further away. At certain point said busywork became one most important element of any new MMO: do that this many times, advance to next task, repeat.
>And at this point, it was easy to win people over by offering them same shit, but with all/most of busywork being done for you, since even dumbest people get tired of repeating things again and again and again. Sadly, in eyes of population, MMOs are now associated with grind so hard, it's easier to do Nintendo and invent "new" genre than trying to salvage "MMORPG".

Can't tell because of what you said at the beginning but what you also said towards the end, but sounds like you only grew up on post-wow mmorpgs.

I'm hoping Pantheon comes out great. However, it is being bombarded by all sorts of people with different agendas and from various other mmorpgs. There's the people who played mmorpgs other than Everquest and FFXI. There's the people who want pvp (although the devs were loud and clear that pvp wasn't a focus you god damn cancerous babies). Then there's the SJWs that was all the female characters covered up in burkas (seriously, on the game's FAQ, there an answer dealing with this and many of the forums are crying in a sjw vs anti-sjw civil war to not make cheesecake women characters or clothing/armor).

>Now you can't expect people to grind unless they're some retarded no lifer neet.

Funny, but in the community I'm in, every xivfag just about is a neet. If they aren't a neet, they have severe mental problems. Or both. And goddamn they whitekight it to death. Act like fucking cultists.

Agreed

If anything their profitability has increased since the late 2000s due to generally lowered server costs. The problem is that's not enough for the money hungry corporations so they squeeze as much extra revenue out of the game as possible with cash shops, micro-transactions and skeleton crew dev teams to maintain the game while neglecting the things that keep an MMO alive. Unfortunately this makes their games shit and they die within a year of release. Almost every MMO that's shut down in the past 10 years were still turning a profit, just not enough to satisfy the companies that owned them. Those that shut down because they were legitimately losing money are the games where people just stopped playing because of all the bullshit monetization that was shoved into their game. The only hope we have are the few crowdfunded passion project MMOs currently stuck in development hell.

There's this one coming soon
youtu.be/zXLTFwoYM_s

MMOs are all shit because they're all just WoWshit copies. Play Runescape.

But it did you fucking retard.

>FFXI
Great example of a pre-wow mmo where gameplay and socializing were quite the things. Heavily crippled by be designed for controllers and extremely bad UI.

>FFXIV 1.0
Combination of trying to be a direct sequel to FFXI including a very big marketing campaign for their FFXI players to jump ship but having very, very, very jank gameplay and polish (GJ throwing it to the Chinese).
>FFXIV 2.0
OH FUCK OH FUCK FFXIV 1.0 IS A STUDIO ON FIRE OH FUCK WHAT DO WE DO?! Wait, what is currently best mmo? Oh fuck, its wow, just fucking copy it, GOGOGOGOGO.
>FFXIV 2.0+
We still have some jank gameplay, why don't we just make the game into a simpler wow, especially in consideration of our controller users? Oh also open up a Fantasia bottling factory, these faggots are buying them like 6-packs.

>nobody said they wanted a "complex" dungeon
>More complex dungeons
I guess following a comment chain is too hard for you. Also old ST was kinda shit. Very few people liked how it was designed and it was anything but compact. Mauradon had the same problem as ST in that they were both placed out in buttfuck nowhere and had way too many mobs to kill to make the dungeon take way longer than it should

The dungeons location isn't really a concern or part of the argument for a dungeons design. Maraudons design was dogshit because it was split into 3 separate ass zones, and thus required backtracking around the place. Sunken temple never had that issue. Sure it had too many dragon whelps maybe, but dungeons should take a while. A dungeon run that isn't 45+ minutes at absolute minimum on your first or average time through isn't a good dungeon
Also let's just establish this right now: backtracking is not complexity, it is a severe time waste and the most effort free way to waste your time from a dev standpoint

Yes, like FPS with call of duty

I agree that backtracking isn't complexity, but a dungeon that has a mob pack to kill every 10 steps to make a run take 45+ minutes isn't complex either. Let's take a TBC dungeon like Hellfire Ramparts as an example. That dungeon takes a while because of the sheer fucking density of mobs that don't actually pose a threat to you. No backtracking, no complex level or enemy design, extremely time consuming. Good dungeon or not in your opinion?

ramparts was arguably the worst of the hellfire citadel dungeons, no it wasn't good. but if you're giving me the choice of "fight mobs but don't have to walk miles backtracking" or "no mobs but backtrack running for centuries", i'm gonna pick the former. i'd rather be gated in an arena and forced to kill monsters to progress than backtrack even if they took the same amount of time. anything that discourages game engagement is fucking terrible especially in parties.

>the grindiest MMO to have ever existed
FTFY

At least it had cyborgs.

Blood Furnace and Shattered Halls were designed the same way as Ramps though, with BF even having the exact scenario you used as an example. They're very small dungeons with an absolute metric shitton of mobs to kill. I'm not sure why you are so caught up on the backtracking part, you can make big dungeons without backtracking by using shortcuts. Fact is though that most players don't want to spend an hour+ running around in a dungeon which was my argument to begin with. Complexity isn't what the average player want in MMOs these days

I see you've never played Lineage2 official server.

The problem is current mmos are just bad because it easy to be low effort. An mmo SHOULD cater tyo all the different types of player, those that like pvp, socializing, casual pve, hardcore pve, collecting ect. current mmos will be somewhat fulfilling on like one or two fronts then just be trash on the rest.

I couldn't enjoy MMOs anymore once I grew up as they require too much investment. I loved them as a kid though, back when the internet was a wild and wonderful frontier.

The race war aspect is what makes it good. In regular pvp-based MMO, most people would just talk it out with their PK-er or just move to other map because they don't want to be disturbed.
In RF, you can't understand other race's language, and the best farming spot is the map where the three races able to get in. You can't help but to band together with people of your race in order to farm efficiently.

I was playing on the classic server recently, and not that user. My biggest dissappointment was finding out that:

1. The community is filled with BRs and Ruskies.
2. RMT is rampant.
3. You don't actually fight mobs, you just mass pull them and never actually tank them.

Emphasize #1 and 2 several times over and you'll get the state of the official Linage 2 classic server.

Attached: eq velious.jpg (804x320, 139K)

this, mobile games killed the mmo just like they killed visual novels and soon will kill JRPGs

>tfw reduced to playing private servers for games made 20 years ago

I fucking hate this genre. Why did it completely stop making good games past 2005 or so?

Attached: 1492174221714.png (1070x601, 463K)

Because retarded WoWbabies kept crying about the MMO part, and every other team started copying WoW as it got shittier and shittier.

Every company thought mmorpgs could potentially roll in millions by the month so they invested in them accordingly. Unfortunately they all made jank-ass attempts so they shot themselves in the foot by doing so. Warhammer Online as one notable example, and Wildstar as the most recent. Like they had no idea what to do with the actual game-part of the games.

Also I would like to think every mmorpg who tried to do a faction vs faction attempt after wow (i.e. all of them) fucked themselves over trying to cater to the pvp-crowd that was supposively a big thing during the late 2000's.

You will never have a good MMO around as long as Discord exists.

You will never have a good MMO around as long as Zoomers exists.

I'm not even bothering with classic wow

What do zoomer have to do with with a genre only played by 20+ year olds?

UO was fucking amazing and absolutely ahead of its time

Yep

That's not what made it enjoyable for me. Sure the mining wars were fun, but I was never high enough to properly participate, just run around getting one shot.
The highest I ever got was like 40, the game is incredibly inefficient for solo play and partying up with strangers is rare unfortunately. I had a bellato psyper at like 33 and an accretian striker I got to 40. The game was just comfy, nothing to do with the pvp. The zones, the mobs, idk man. Just wish it wasn't so retarded to play equal level content solo, almost all your money goes into potions you so you can fight shit you need to when you play solo.

since this seems like the best place to ask, what Ragnarok Online server should I play on? Preferably something that isn't pay2win or completely devoid of content.

Attached: ragnarok online.jpg (1024x768, 303K)

give it 5-10 years brothers, and we'll be going home for real

Attached: firefall-pc-cover.jpg (1280x548, 427K)

>Generation Z (often abbreviated as Gen Z) is the demographic cohort after the Millennials. Demographers and researchers typically use the mid-1990s to early-2000s as starting birth years.
Retard.

leika-ro.net

>what Ragnarok Online server should I play
No one.

The one where you can buy your way to victory.