Whats the best way to do it ?

I've been really happy with Guilty Gear's hitboxes.

Is all that blue stuff not a hurtbox in the OP pic?

pls do not malign the holy bringer of Ass and Tiddies

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oh wow. my brain looked at that image and saw the blue boxes as being hurt boxes except for the skullgirls one where my brain saw all those blue lines and interpreted it as meaning "scribbled out" and therefor not there or something.
i might be having a stroke.

thanks doc

Judging off these pictures alone, Skullgirls in concept but KoF in practice. Yeah Skullgirls looks the most accurate but dear lord that has to be a pain in the ass to develop for every animation. And judging based only off these pictures SF punishes you for attacking well Guilty Gear rewards you for it too damn much.

All it's good for.

That's like the opposite of how GG works tho lol, you're describing modern KOF hitboxes (Old KOF hit boxes have no rhyme or reason to them, some not even matching the move being done).

Smash hit boxes are like the Skullgirls ones, but with random hit boxes protruding in directions they shouldn't, and randomly assigned body part invincibility. Also Sword hitboxes are 2x as big as they should be.

Trekken hit boxes are the Michelin man.

DBZ hitboxes look like GG, but extending an extra foot in every direction.

Where's the version with Melty Blood hitboxes?

never really got into fighting games,
solely from a gameplay standpoint, is there a reason why all hitboxes arent like skullgirls?

Am I supposed to want anything but Skullgirls?

You're an absolute mongoloid if you think this.

Have you ever tried to play Skullgirls online?

It's a total pain to develop them that way, and it's also a lot less fun.

Bad call for 2D games. This is what MK does, and is partially why hit detection feels clunky in that game. Beta SF4 did this too until Seth got ahold of it, told Capcom it played like shit, and was hired on as a special advisor.

Pixel perfect collision doesn't work in online play and won't until quantum computing is a thing. It's the reason Demon's Souls/Dark Souls have the worst netcode in existence

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What was wrong witn it?

precision doesn't necessarily result in balance

It's basically unplayable with more than 10 ping because the massive amount of hitboxes increases the amount of data that needs to be transmitted exponentially.

>Smash hit boxes are like the Skullgirls ones, but with random hit boxes protruding in directions they shouldn't, and randomly assigned body part invincibility. Also Sword hitboxes are 2x as big as they should be.
Nah, you've got it wrong. The issue with Smash hitboxes can't be communicated in this image format since the primary issue with Smash hitboxes (aside from them being spheres, which is fucking weird) is that Smash is technically a 3D game and can have weird hitbox issues as a result.
youtu.be/GP5fJUjgu6w
Smash Hitboxes being 3D is actually also a perfect example as to why "more accurate" isn't always better.

In a practical sense, the best in this image is Guilty Gear. It follows the animation's outline pretty well while giving the hitbox enough space to not somehow whiff in weird situations. Perhaps extend the hurtbox at least halfway down the leg (but no further than where KOF's is) depending on how strong you want that button to be.

Attacks matching the model only works when the game takes advantage of 3D space, allowing players to move in either direction on the Z Axis. This allows them to dodge attacks and also creates the need for moves that track or have trajectories which extend into the Z Axis. A 2D game where the collision was limited to the model would have extremely awkward footsies and would be hard to patch without doing new animation work. IIRC NRS has tried that approach (I forget if it was some or if all of their games do this) and if I was a fighting game developer I wouldn't be copying anything NRS is doing from a gameplay perspective.

>let's just have 100 hitboxes instead of one polygon
I refuse to believe this is faster.

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Meanwhile, in Lethal League...

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It makes moves less consistent and hard to balance. You'll end up having more shit whiff that you swore hit, and it also results in more weird trades. Not as bad as 3D hitboxes (granted, they don't have a choice because of sidestepping) or Smash/MK retard hit boxes.

Smash isn't a fighting game

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>Game is literally bursting with hefty tits and ass
>Main the big dude
He's too fun, I can't help it. I play solo just so I can do big boy damage.

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Causes a lot of combo inconsistency between characters, restricts balancing decisions, takes too much time to develop, and makes the server send more data which fucks up online more than it needs to.

>that video
holy fuck, the reason why i felt like half of marths sword didnt exist makes so much sense now

>seething so much that you reply to the wrong person

the server doesnt send hitbox data

Who plays fighting games online?

>one polygon
>pepe
are you retarded or just stupid

Not having hurtboxes on your extended limbs is fucking dumb though.

why would smash be included

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If you think that's bad, check out Melee Yoshi.
youtu.be/eWO6iDefd-g

You can parrarelize hit detection, which in itself probably takes more time than just using a polygon.

It makes moves less consistent and hard to balance. You'll end up having more shit whiff that you swore hit, and it also results in more weird trades. Not as bad as 3D hitboxes (granted, they don't have a choice because of sidestepping) or Smash/MK retard hit boxes.
I mean, both of these things can be true, and both be problems. I'd argue both sets of problems make each other even worse, which is why MK hitboxes, though bad, don't feel as shitty as Smash ones.

Here's your hitbox bro

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No, because you'd have characters with outrageously long ranged or flashy moves dominating.

Attacks will feel like complete shit and miss a lot unless a character is using a giant 2 handed sword. Terrible case of more not being better and is just a case of Mike Z being a faggot autist.

>100 hitboxes instead of one polygon
I legitimately cannot fathom what the fuck you mean by this. You're stupid even by frogposter standards.

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Fun fact: Snake's Brawl hitboxes were as retarded as they were because they downscaled Snake late in development but just forgot to scale down his hitboxes with him.

That's one of those issues that isn't really an issue with the system so much as that the people making it are retarded and didn't do the extremely simple fix, which would be to just project all the hitboxes onto a 2d plane and do the collisions there.

They're really not anything like the skullgirls hitboxes there anyway. The hurtboxes are generally pretty close to their outline but they do whatever they want with the hitboxes and since everything in a sphere for ease of computation they end up with weird shapes. And some of them are just straight up incorrect and they stick a hitbox randomly in the middle of nowhere

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>ignorant pepe boy trying to tell people how to do their jobs
listen, nobody shows up to tell you how to masturbate to little girls so keep your trap shut and mind your business
-x

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then why not design characters where something like that wont happen?

I dunno, I estimate like 80-85% of the people who buy it, depending on the game. I'd guess even higher, but a substantial amount of people play just for single player stuff and don't touch versus.

Okay, sounds like a plan.

Now how will we denote that a fireball will damage the player on contact?

Smash is a party brawler, this is discussing traditional fighting games

I don't know why Smashfags get so offended at the insinuation that their game isn't a fighting game, it isn't because it's its own genre at this point, that's nothing to get salty about

I don't know how anyone could argue that #3 is the best. Even then it's not even that good because the kicking leg is all fucked up. If you fighting game fans are actually trying to argue that the hitbox shouldn't match the models then kys please.

Like this.
Fine I will write code to test both.

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There is literally not one good game that isn't le ebin physics meme shit where hitboxes perfectly match the models.

>fighting games have become such a joke that the average fighting game player thinks "versus" means online

More complex hitboxes means more complex netcode.
Doom 3 had per pixel hitboxes, but they were disabled by default for MP for a reason.
DES and DAS have shit netcode because Japs can't do netcode worth shit. They live in a small, ethnocentric country and don't need to cater to large demographics or geography.

nice

Yes

>More complex hitboxes means more complex netcode.
no it doesnt you idiot

nigger you don't know what a polygon is
what you drew there would legitimately take 3 times as much power to compute

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>collision tests between two non convex polygons is fast

go on then, see it for yourself.

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Game feel and intuitive hitbox size for links>precision

>the massive amount of hitboxes

-- take shit all memory space and network bandwidth. It'd be about one-thousandth of the bandwidth used by VoIP chat solutions to transmit a single second of voice.

It literally does though. More packets to send means more lag

That IS a polygon if you ignore my bad drawing leaving gaps.
A POLYGON DOESN'T"T HAVE TO BE CONVEX OKAY!
>what you drew there would legitimately take 3 times as much power to compute
IF YOU KNOW YOUR ASS FROM A COMPUTATIONAL GEOMETRY ALGORITHM I'LL BOWL OF SHIT

Okay but can you make it so I don't get damaged and go into hitstun if I contact with something that isn't his foot/leg, he's not attacking me with his head

>More complex hitboxes means more complex netcode.
No it doesn't, collision detections are all done clientside, fighting game netcode is almost always just sending the inputs with the occasional game state info for synchronization. Why would you need to transmit hitbox data when there's already a perfectly accurate copy of it in their game, as long as their game knows what move you're doing?

You have to draw it for every frame anyway, and the engine made for Skullgirls probably supports hitboxes and the devs simply went very specific with their usage; you'd have to check how the hitboxes in another game in the engine not by Lab Zero look I guess. Unless you're advocating for just having the move's hitbox/hurtbox match the model's collision like Tekken, in which case you don't have to do this shit either.

It doesnt send more packets
you dont send the hitboxes across the network

dbfz confirmed not competitive

>A POLYGON DOESN'T"T HAVE TO BE CONVEX OKAY!
oh fuck. I needed that, thanks, little boy.

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Personally I prefer this.

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I'm taking this back, I just tested it and polygon is faster.

hes right

>implying some gigantic clusterfuck mess of an ngon is somehow easier to compute than a bunch of squares

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Not skullgirls.

It looks impressive at first but it's fucking awful to design. That's why all of the DLC characters have more tradtional big block hitboxes.

Like this.

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Why on earth would you need to send more data than the other player's position and inputs? Your fucking console already knows exactly what all the attacks are and what their hit boxes are it can do all that calculation itself, you just have to tell it what attack was used.

yeah placing boxes over an image is so hard

What if my character is a triangle???

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Just use a bunch of spheres. Easiest way to compute anything. That's why old raytracing demos always use spheres and cylinders.

Depends on how many rectangles there are. A polygon computation takes the time of about 8 rectangles.

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Why don't they just do pixel perfect hit detection on the GPU?

I still can comprehend the very existence of Big Band. He's a perfect design stuck in a underrated because of fanservice game

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Imagine getting hit by the air under a leg

Actually, valid question, I guess it might make the hit areas 'lumpy' but who cares, right?

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depends how many sides the polygon has

You'd be removing creativity and freedom (think in SC VI where Maxi is facing Ivy) for the sake of balance and "realism"

Also, there are legacy characters with moves that can't and will never change. They're its signature and can't be removed nor changed

Why don't they use circles/spheres/radiuses instead of squares? It's just a distance check between two points.

You could do pixel perfect collision detection on computers in the 90s, how slow do you think they are? It's just better for gameplay to have a seperate hit detector

You're going to have a nicer fit to the character model with a polygon using a smallish number of sides compared to tons of thin square slices to try and approximate slopes like Skull Girls did.

Just take the convex hull of all the hit boxes and then smooth out any jagged slopes into segments.

Make it granular enough and you're good.

Updated/expanded image. Continue discussion.

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Smash does exactly that, but then Smash introduces another retarded problem where all the hitboxes are spheres/pills in a 2D-based game, see

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Even you want it to be separate just store the "hit box" as bit map.
Then you get fast collision and any shape you want up to pixel granulairty.

Not if you literally print polygon blue, damagebox yellow, and then see if the result has any green.

It's a simple spell, but quite unbreakable.

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shitty doggystyle anal

comparably equipped with a t-shirt

Thank you friend.
I accept everyone's apologies for being rude.

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You can use circles in a 3D engine for computations if your characters are on fixed planes. Squared distance is fastest calculation you can have.

>IF YOU KNOW YOUR ASS FROM A COMPUTATIONAL GEOMETRY ALGORITHM

Do you though?
Intersections between non axis-aligned bounding rectangles are already significantly harder to compute than intersections between axis-aligned rectangles. The latter is downright _trivial_ and millions can be computed in the blink of an eye, if parallelized.

What you are suggesting is intersection for non-convex arbitrary polygons. Which is several orders more complicated than the case of non-axis aligned rectangles.

TL;DR you are being stupid.

Meltyblood is the best one, prove me wrong.
youtu.be/CVP1QE0eh0A

Despite being an absolute clusterfuck I kind of like what that Melty Blood is going for.

Square collision isn't really that much more difficult computationally than circle. It's like 4 operations compared to 2, and being able to make single long skinny rectangles instead of lining up 6 little circles probably makes up for it.

why

>if parallelized.
Both can be done in blink of an eye on gpu.

If you're using just a few hitboxes then sure, but if you're being retarded with hitboxes might as well use circles.

The Skullgirls method is the ideal one since it's the most precise and comprehensive, if the processing time and lag weren't an issue it would be perfect.

Melty Blood's whole deal is that attacks are big, wide and covered in particle effects, but can still be stopped if you time things just right.
youtu.be/ETWYHdlgiRw

No they can't. Such trivial computations would take longer to queue up in the GPU than to actually perform it on the CPU. Shows that you've never done any parallel programming.

> then see if the result has any green

There's a signficant delay involved in read-back from the GPU and then needing to scan the resulting bitmap buffer for green pixels.

Granted; it _is_ the most convenient and often fastest way once you start dealing with multiple very complex shapes. Especially if you need pixel-level granularity and cannot substitute for a more abstract polygon.

I don't understand why it could cause more lag.
Just send character position and pose then any client can lookup the bounding box from local memory.

I love this. Where's the Dover Boys one?

imagine thinking rectangle collisions are so expensive you need to parallelize them on the gpu

>The Skullgirls method is the ideal one since it's the most precise and comprehensive,
Absolutely fucking not.
Anyone in this thread who things Skullgirls' hitboxes are the best literally does not play fighting games.

Why would you compute hitbox collisions on gpu in a fighting game?

Nobody is parallelizing bounding box computations for a fighting game on cpu.
The overhread of threads too high.

Yes it does. If it didn't everyone would be using per-pixel hitboxes. Stop making shit up.
The packet information is more demanding which leads to greater risk of desync in the event of packet loss. Also most games, especially console games, use hybrid peer-to-peer garbage which is more taxing on the host.
>what is desync
You're frame of logic is flawed. Stop projecting what you think I'm saying and read it for what it is.

You sound like you suffer from affluenza.

Just print it right in CPU's cache, no reason to use GPU since you don't really want to show it anyway. Readback is quasi-instant.

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It's really not though. Footsies are an absolute joke in that game. There's a good reason nobody plays it anymore.

Why does it matter? The GPU is fast enough since it's rendering everything.

>Yes it does. If it didn't everyone would be using per-pixel hitboxes. Stop making shit up.
I have no clue why fighting games use boxes (tradtion maybe) but you dont send collision data over the network, you just send inputs or actions, as many other people have pointed out. The packing information isnt any more demanding

It looks robust but punishable. Like you get those fun busted hitboxes that should never have any right to exist but it comes at the cost of also have those shitty busted hitboxes you loathe in every game.

>if the processing time and lag weren't an issue it would be perfect.
Processing time and lag aren't an issue. As has been said before lag isn't relevant since that data isn't sent anyway, and 10 boxes or 100 boxes the actual processing time is trivial, it's going to spend several orders of magnitude more processing time on just rendering the visuals.

Because there's no need to do it. And even if there were, lightweight threads would be a much better option than the suggested GPU option. GPU's need a lot of data to crunch in order to make up for latency between CPU and GPU. Let's not forget that polling data from the GPU is thread locking.

smash is not a fighting game

In the hitbox viewer it's because it only shows the character model, no effects. Len is swinging a magic orb thing around in the actual animations.
If you mean "why" in general, it's because the attacks are designed so that they have a thing that they do, and they're extremely good and consistent at that thing. It works out really well, makes the game feel clean and straightforward to play. If a move beats low pokes, it fucking beats low pokes and don't try to talk back or it'll smack your shit. If it's an anti-air, it will knock almost anything out of the sky, etc.
There's also stuff like this, where it's a pressure/oki tool that isn't supposed to beat anything, so it won't, and in exchange has great other properties.
Basically it's a game where there's constantly a ton of shit going on so weird hitbox interactions would just get in the way.

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>>what is desync
Completely irrelevant to the hitboxes? None of what you're talking about has fuck-all to do with the hitboxes. Sure my console and his console might disagree as to his location, but not the fucking hitbox data of a light punch.

Here's an analogy for a brainlet like you. Imagine you need a 5 liter bottle of water. The tap at your home is your CPU, the supermarket is GPU. Which one would you choose. Spending the extra time going to the store to get instantly filled bottle of water or will you go to the bathroom that's right there and fill it there. Transferring data between CPU and GPU is slower than the AABB collision detection.

Ye olde saltyA/S tier

street fighter or skull girls

Fighting games don't use pixel perfect collisions because it feels like shit in-gameplay. It creates a lot unnecessary jank, whiffed hits and other things, when the relatively simpler approach of using few boxes works that much better.

Model-based collisions really only work on 3d fighters like tekken and soul calibur, where they need to account for an added axis.

Why would you parallelize hit box, even lightweight threads are doing way more work.

But we already have to go the grocery store so adding one more item to our shopping list is not a big deal.

Skull Girls, for sure.

That's my point stupid.

heh
i saw that too

GPU is more like a mail delivery system
every item you send or recieve takes time to travel
so for small items it's faster to just do it locally

No you're not. Every single task on you do on the GPU needs to be queued up by the CPU.

They use them because they're easy to code and calculate. Cheaper. That's the only reason.
Asians are penny-pinching cheapasses.

Other people haven't pointed out anything because they likely have no idea how synchronous data even works.
How do you think, in shittier netcodes, its so easy to desync yourself and cheat? Why do you think "nothing personal" backstabs in DES or DAS happen? Because of shitty hybrid peer-to-peer netcode that doesn't have proper failsafes for packetchecking in the event of desync.

But it's all fast enough for purpose of game so who cares?
Why not use more accurate version?
You're telling me one extra task for GPU is going to make or break the framerate target for fighting game?

Did they downscale him to 1/4th the size he was originally? Because he'd need to be about 400% of his current size for most of his retarded shit to make sense.

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>sending hitboxes over the network
Are these literal niggers serious?
Who comes up with this shit?

ANY collision method for checking the collision between only two objects is so fast it doesn't matter what method you use, boxes, polygons, pixels, you can use anything and it would make no difference. Japanese aren't efficient programmers either

Skull girls sends the hitboxes over network as uncompressed json lol.

Why do you think a GPU is more accurate?

We're telling you that the GPU version would be slower, you imbecile. Even a shit-ton of hitboxes on CPU until you reach thousands and thousands of them. Might as well use something like circles by that time.

Because it can do pixel accurate intersection detection?
Note I don't mean pixel perfect to visual character model but to some bit map representing the "hit box".
You could represent all the hit boxes in OP's pic using this or do more detailed one etc.

Stop fixating on the word "hitbox" you peanut-brained subhuman and think about what information would be needed to create a proper connection.
The less information you send in the packet the less likely you are to desync, but only if that information being sent doesn't require heavy calculations to synchronize.

"Playing catchup"

>Because it can do pixel accurate intersection detection?
so can a CPU

>We're telling you that the GPU version would be slower
Who cares which is slower or faster?
They're all so fast that none of them will impact the framerate. Are you trying to run at 1k fps or something?

>They use them because they're easy to code and calculate
That is an extremely small part of it. The main reason is that per pixel collision is EXTREMELY hard to balance.

Imagine you have one move that's just too powerful because the hitbox is fuckhuge, or it leads to an infinite.

What do you do to fix it? Of course you can tweak numbers like damage and hitstun, but most likely it won't entirely fix the problem, you'd most likely need to edit the actual sprite which is a ton of work, especially if there are a lot of frames of animation.

With hitboxes you literally just move or scale the box.

People also point out how good marth's grab is but I think this gif shows more how Yoshi's sucks

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wait why would you go to the bathroom for water instead of like a kitchen or kitchenette area

The intersection would still have to be processed on the CPU. Jesus fuck, I'm done. I'm leaving this thread.

It sends the same amount of information no matter what kind of hit detection you're using. You have no idea what you're talking about. Fighting games only send inputs to each other

Not nearly as fast.

literally same water and i doubt your kitchen sink would with the bottle

You really have no idea how online multiplayer works the way it does without desyncing, do you?

Hard to balance what? That's a failure of the video game or dev, not the technology.

CPU would be faster for doing intersections of a few images, you would only see gains if you had tons of characters to test and not just two
totally irrelevant anyway, speed doesn't matter, all of this is so fast it's trival

i don't understand, is this an oversight?

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>>If it's an anti-air, it will knock almost anything out of the sky
>anti-airs
>in melty
lol

Theoretically, Skullgirls
Practically, KOF

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It does make a difference unless you're on LAN sitting right next to each other.

But I do?

There is literally (LITERALLY) no reason to send hitboxes when they are already available on the connected machine.

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Melee was developed in like 11 months. There are a LOT of oversights.

No... you do it on gpu using primitives in vulkan or opengl or whatever.

no it doesnt the game will run at 60 fps regardless
2D fighting games are so simple they would run at thousands of fps if they were uncapped

>not playing Satsuki
When they make an anti air, it anti-airs

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>"why send hitboxes over network?"
>desync, desync, desync, desync
I don't get it, what does user mean?
help..

>Dark Souls

he's literally insane and has made up his own idea of how video game networking works which has nothing to do with reality

Fighting games are a bad medium for online play and nearly all of them have shit netcode.
What does that tell you? That all packets are the same? Or all devs are the same and have no fucking idea how to netcode so they all just borrow the same techniques.

melee uses yellow for hurtbox and blue for invincibility in the developer display

make the body and leg yellow and keep the head blue and the leg red

He thinks that in order to have a synced up netcode you need to send a perfect representation of the game state every frame. Don't tell him about rollback netcode, or his head might explode.

except the kitchen hopefully smells less like someone regularly shits and pisses in there

if only they did that for more than 2-3 characters

No, bad hitboxes are a failure of the dev.

Hitboxes are very easy to implement, balance and calculate while offering basically the same result as per pixel collision as long as the hitboxes aren't retarded.

Pixel collision is literally worse in every aspect except the practically irrelevant "it looks better" argument, which basically nobody who actually plays fighting games gives a shit about.

>Hard to balance what?
Everything? Do you realize the amount of balancing that is needed for a fighting game?

ITT: People that don't play fighting games and don't know how computers work argue over how best to design both.

264 replies and 79 images omitted, click reply to view.

>not playing anime fgs

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Why would FPS be a direct influence unless the game code is trash to begin with. Are you genuinely pretending you know how online multiplayer works?
Don't ever develop an online multiplayer game. You're a fucking projecting moron.

That's because fighting games are about instant reactions to what your opponent is doing, how does that work with latency? There's some quite sophisticated techniques for latency compensation in fighting games. You can't just say "shit netcode" because the style of the game itself doesn't lend itself to online play. None of this has anything to do with packets or what they contain

I didn't make the image, nerd.

>Don't ever develop an online multiplayer game.
I have which is why I'm calling you insane
You don't understand what you're talking about

based melee retard

The amount of balance needed for fighting games is completely arbitrated by fictional scenarios with fictional science.

People should watch youtube.com/watch?v=k9JTIn1SVQ4
It's really interesting. Not specifically about how fighting game netcode works, more just specifically how rollbacks work, but is one of the better overviews of the entire system and the challenges of making fighting game netplay actually playable.
Stop reading shizo arguments about nothing and actually learn something.

I see now that you're actually clueless.
Thanks for wasting my time.

Post your shit game them. Stop lying.

why dont use the game models as hit boxes?

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hitboxes are the way that they are for balance reasons

>move is too strong
>now have to change the actual character model and animation

im not identifying myself here just to prove your retarded ass wrong
stop being so sure of yourself when you dont understand a topic

Some games do, like NetherRealms Mortal Kombat/Injustice games

if it's a 2d fighting game the sprite might be just an image stored in memory that's a pretty constant size including space around the character so unless someone bothers with mapping out various points all along their outlines to come up with a set of points enclosing an area representing the character model they wouldn't really have any easy way to tell

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KoF, Skullgirls is just retarded and inefficient as fuck. whoever decided to go that route should be dragged out back and shot

>No MUGEN where the hitbox is your filesystem

Haven't watched this yet but are there any downsides to using rollback instead of delay or is it just developers being lazy?

Skullgirls is a weird game mechanically because for every brilliant idea that every fighting game dev should be doing it has a fucking pants-on-head retarded decision that boggles the mind.

This is only possible with 2d games with sprites and not models. In a 3d game like Dark Souls, it would require a super computer to calculate all the collisions of complex geometries and shapes, this is why almost all hitboxes are parallelepipeds and spheres, their collision is very easy to calculate

You wouldn't be proving me wrong. You'd be proving me right. Because you're full of shit.

You're saying that like an alpha channel doesn't exist.
It's still not the way to go though.

Tekken and Soul Calibur do, but they have the benefut of using 3d animations with frame interpolation. In this way the hitboxes smoothly travel along the designated path (as they are tied to the limbs), and can also deal with depth.

A lot of 2d fighters use more traditional animation approaches, so they have to approximate the area those moves would hit if they were animated at 60fps. Add to this that some attacks need to serve a specific purpose, like maybe a move beats high-hitting moves, wuthout the requirement of having the character literally faceplanting themselves against the floor. It's a delicate topic about balance, gameplay feel and moveset design.

Look up how fighting game networking works
you send the input to the other player, that's it
infact it doesn't matter what the game is, no games actually send hitbox data through the network, a FPS game just says "I shot at this position" and the server determines whether it hit or not

Modern engines allow for mesh collisions

>not a hitbox that deletes your filesystem
There will never, EVER be a game with more aggressive powercreep than MUGEN. The moment that Gogeta beat Omega Tom Hanks cleanly it was all downhill. First they made even more bullshit characters like Rare Akuma, then they made characters who can win near-instantly, then they made characters that literally win instantly, and then people were pushed so far that they made characters who not just win instantly but irrepairably fuck up your computer the moment they do so.

You think SaltyBet S-Tier is some jank busted shit, with your high-volume Mexican/Brazilian DBZ/Saint Saiya characters, you haven't seen shit.

The amount of misinformation and lack of understanding of fighting games on this board is mindblowing. There's nothing bad with not knowing things, but the problem is people that don't know things but feel like they are experts anyway.

You've literally said nothing to back up your assertions why would you expect anyone would believe you lmao

post insane mugens. Always worth a look.

>no Virtua Fighter

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3 is objectively the best
prove me wrong

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The melty blood image is wrong and makes no sense if you actually play melty.

>Dark Souls
The worst part are certain enemies with enemy hitboxes that linger for a full second after the attack animaton, specially in Dark Souls 2.

this guy is actually busted. he is in basically every god damn team.

There's a ton of reasons, I'm sure you'll get a ton of (you)s explaining them
There's one most people miss though so I'll take this opportunity
Take this "animation" for example, it's a karate chop, imagine it's all fancy with smear frames and motion lines and shit, but the key frames are basically this. It's easy to tell where the attack would hit intuitively, because we have an understanding of space and motion and know that the arm would have to pass through the intervening space between those frames, but the computer doesn't. If it was just comparing models, then it's going to think it would miss something that doesn't intersect with one of the keyframe positions, or you get stuck trying to make your smear frames and effects pull double duty, looking good and being a balanced and reasonable hitbox. It's infinitely easier to just draw the hitbox in after.

Basically no. Bad rollback netcode is worse than average delay netcode and it takes work to implement since it has to actually be able to do the rollbacks which isn't a simple thing unless the game was built with it in mind, but there is basically no situation in which well implemented rollback netcode would be worse than delay that wouldn't be unplayable anyway. GGPO actually uses both delay and rollbacks, because rollbacks make small delays of a frame or 3 basically unnoticeable but cause issues with like 150 ping ~5 delay because it can't do that much prediction accurately so it has to roll back bigger chunks of time, so in those cases you just set a few frames of normal delay so the rollbacks on have to deal with manageable amounts.

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Why are FGCfags so scared of smash anyways? They spent all EVO seething about it

At least some people found a higher calling and used MUGEN for porn

>censoredgirls

Haven't been down the rabbit hole in a while, mostly in the headspace because Twitter recommended a MUGEN No Context account that I got a kick out of. That said, two of the most blatant were I believe called "A-Bomb" which would explode the moment it pressed anything and be a fullscreen unblockable instant KO and "F2" which was just the key on the keyboard floating there that would immediately win. There was also Light Yagami with sprites taken from Jump Ultimate Stars who was slightly less bullshit since he could kill you by writing your name in the Death Note but it had enough startup to punish on reaction before he finishes. The shit I'm talking about that I would need to take a while to find was characters that were designed to be like these characters but when they won they would fuck up your computer's files, because the only thing stronger than winning instantly is making your opponent unable to actually play the game anymore.

Semi-related, but I also recall having a character in my own MUGEN copy way back when that was Vegito from DBZ, but specifically when he was turned into candy by Buu. It was just a floating purple dot that could fly anywhere it wanted on screen and its normals were just flying in specific formations with hitboxes attached, and his super was just a beam you could pump all your meter into that did insane consistent damage and tracked position (like Cable's HVB but without manual aim).

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That was painful to watch this guy make asinine excuses and market buzzwords to justify terrible netcoding and cost-cutting.
Cheap and Lazy. They can just use fully dedicated servers coupled with region filtering and solve most of their problems. They won't because its an added expense and alienates potential buyers and playerbases.

Now everyone is going even farther away from dedicated servers and using "cloud" marketing meme bullshit which is just peer-to-peer with extra (virtual) steps.

>MUGEN porn
Good stuff when it works, shame it's an unorganized mess and the characters only barely work together

Unironically the most balanced game at this year's EVO.

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Smash Bros and ANY other fighting game (Tekken, Street Fighter, King of Fighters) has zero cross-over, they're effectively two different communities while the rest of EVO fighters have some similarities in community.

So EVO turns into tribalist and start throwing their own shit at the other tribe.

The real stupid cheapy ones are kind of fake bullshit. Yeah obviously if your "character" is an external exe that you give administrator permissions to or just a .bat file that says "del /f *" or whatever the windows command is it can fuck up your computer. Some of the stuff sounds like it's actually just using the normal character files and exploiting bugs in the game to do neat shit, but most of the stuff on mugen.fandom.com/wiki/Cheapie is pretty retarded.

>merely pretending

There should be main and partial hitboxes; hitting an outstretched hand should do damage, but less than an attack on the opponent's core.
I don't really care for characters where it's the opposite though, where damaging attacks have a sweetspot on a weapon, like Marth.

I miss Melty Blood, bros

>Most of the "aggressor" porn characters were just blob monsters
>Most of the girls with sprites edited to match these characters weren't the ones I would've wanted
Were there even any girls done for that corner of MUGEN that weren't SF Alpha girls or the main KOF girls like Mai? Pretty sure they didn't even do all the Alpha girls because I never saw Rose.

Yes I've looked up how they work and 99% of them are trash. What's your point?
That the packets are the same, or that all these games are the same?

>People make anti-malware characters to counter the malware characters
Fuck, that is hilarious.

>Fighting games
>Dedicated servers
>Not peer to peer

So you have no idea of what you are talking about

>99% of them are trash.
what does that even mean? Do you know a better way? Fighting games will just suck shit on a laggy connection, there's no way around it

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>1 polygon
I almost had a brain aneurysm trying to figure this out

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>he actually thinks it makes sense even on a basic level to send hitbox data over the network
>he's STILL defending this retardation in the thread
You don't even need to be a pro to understand why this is flat out retarded
Both games already have the hitbox data locally. There is absolutely 0 benefit to sending information if the recipient is already guaranteed to have the same information.

Are you? It doesn't send hitboxes over the connection you fucking retard, it sends collision data.

That user obviously sits on a tachyon connection and everything else just pales in comparison.

You can still play it

Why?

The irony of what that user is saying is also that Skullgirls despite having some of the most complex hitboxes, still has one of the best netcodes in all fighting games. So he's literally proven wrong by reality.

>Do you know a better way? Fighting games will just suck shit on a laggy connection, there's no way around it
I'm glad we're coming back to a real argument instead of me saying important shit and you sticking your fingers in your ears.

Accept that some things don't work and they cost money and resource to make better, which fighting game devs are unwilling to do.
You have nothing important to add to this discussion.

>Games with around 60+ players can handle all the hitboxes
>Game with 2, TWO, characters can't handle more accurate hitboxes for the two characters.
What antediluvian horror is responsible for this and how may I begin to fathom the reason for such dark horror?

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Right, I forgot the team "Cheapie" so I couldn't find them easily. Still a really wild side to the game.

That's because a white person coded the game and not an asian, but also doesn't have the money to use better technology.

>Tons of doujins where a group of high school girls gangbang a shota
>None where a group of high school girls gangbang a loli
I wish I could draw so I could fill this empty market.

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What kind of collision data are you sending that is impacted by the amount of hitboxes? You only need to know the position and character state, everything else can already be checked on the server.

what did they censor?

I don't know a single person who plays Virtua Fighter. Does Sega gate that series? I've only seen the characters as guest characters

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>Accept that some things don't work and they cost money and resource to make better
Can you please tell me how you would spend money and resources to lower the speed of light?

Two animations were changed so upskirts didn't show full panty anymore and people got really mad when the vast majority of the upskirts are still intact.

Age differences with loli (that isn't father incest or disgusting old man) is rare

>lower
It's the other way around, user. You want it to be faster. Instant light travel would be fucking amazing.

What in God's name is that thing?

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Better technology like what? Rollback is as good as it goes for fighting games, can't really do better.

Based

Virtua Fighter does this with a simplified mesh.
Absolute fucking brainlet, dumb retard nigger. You use a simpler (4-6k) mesh that is basically a simplified version of your real mesh and trace on that. By the way, you could do it on the real mesh since it's just two characters, but it would be a useless way to burn up frametime since it provides no advantage over a simplified one.

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I'm really not sure what SEGA wants to do with it. Apparently they put a full playable version of one of the games into the arcades of every Yakuza title, and I heard that they just straight-up have VF5FS in Judgement, including the option to play it straight from the main menu.

Part of me thinks that SEGA might just say "fuck it" and put out VF6 with Kiryu on the cover (and a couple other characters from the series on the roster) and hope it sells Yakuza numbers.

>server
How many fighting games do you think actually use fully dedicated servers and have packet protection protocols to prevent desync?
Most of them only use servers for lobbies and matchmaking.

oh yeah thats what i meant

>dedicated
Literally who said anything about that? A host is also a server you dumpass.

I'm making it way more harder in my head, like I understood what it was they were trying to say but my tired dumbass made it way more complex

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It's a really straightforward post, though. Maybe you're confused because when you were in 1st grade and learned about polygons you were only shown regular convex polygons?

Big Dick hit boxes are the name of Under Nights name.

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Aren't most of the Virtua Fighter devs not at the company anymore?
Sega knows the next game would be soul-less if they tried with a different team.

kusoge

>king of fighters
Game is great but god fuck does it suck being an English speaking fan

Good taste, /ll/ and yuri molestation are top tier. /ll/ seems to be becoming more popular as of late so maybe you'll get your wish soon.

tekken isn't like that though, there's plenty of attacks with weird hitboxes, i.e. jin's 2,4 hitting super low to the ground despite being a high

The issue isn't current technology. Its infrastructure and old technology. Backbone networks jerryrigged to work on modern networks.
Better infrastructure requires more money and resources.
America has some of the oldest still-in-use infrastructure of any modern country. By infrastructure I don't mean brick houses. And by still-in-use I mean for every-day use and not a theme-park attractions.

>fully playable VF in Yakuza
I'm playing through the Yakuza games and I haven't even noticed the VF games yet, damn that really sucks. What the best VF ever sold? Do tournaments even happen for it?

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Hard to do so when the last one you can play at home was on Xbox 360. The rest of the community consists of very dedicated Japanese autists in arcades.

SEGA just needs to release the latest arcade version on PC, that's all that is needed. It's SEGA though, so don't count on it.

I mean, technically if you rebuilt the entire global internet infrastructure from the ground up you could theoretically have around 3f delay between from one side of the planet to the other. The vast majority of delay is from switching and processing and shit, not actual travel time of the data in the wires. That's why sometimes you can get better connections from the east coast to the europe than like california to mexico. I don't think that counts as netcode any more though.

Theoretically skullgirls
In practice, street fighter.

dark souls 2**

>Sega
>Soul-less
I mean unless it's Yakuza they don't seem to care if the game crashes and burns anymore

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>do what 3D fighters like tekken do
Well done, your post is so fucking stupid I can't determine whether you're an idiot or just kidding.
Here's your (You)

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Would be hard to patch the game. Normally you would just tweak the hitboxes but it's tied to the model then you'd have to call the character modeler, remodel, redo animations etc.

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kek gif related

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fucking lazy gamedevs not reinventing the entire telecommunications network so we can get better ping on fighting games

that's because yuri is fucking shit

Virtua Fighter 2 is still the best.

>more casuals play a casual game
wow cute

Theres some unist characters

They don't need to re-invent anything. If anything that's what they WANT to do. They're trying to re-invent the wheel because someone already made a better one, but its too expensive for them to make.
They can use dedicated servers and region -filtering. They won't because it means spending money on servers, alienating potential buyers, and segregating playerbases.

Reap what you sow.

just beat SotFS, and holy shit, it's a huge problem in base game, but less so (still a problem to a degree) in the DLC. I'm glad I watched a video on how to get a rapier +6 in 15 minutes, else it would've been impossible. one of the most glaring flaws other than that bullshit hitbox bonanza, is that most of the challenge in ds2 comes from the devs copypasting enemies as a substitute for challenge. on top of that, you need to feel like a faggot and actually point levels into 3 different defensive categories if you want to survive.

dedicated servers would be slower than peer-to-peer, not faster

Samefag

>A to C to B is faster than A to B

I'm not hating on Virtua Fighter, I'm just confused on how much it's getting ignored in a current market that has fighters selling pretty well. Is the market too flooded? Would a new VF even sell? I feel Tekken would be its direct competitor but I'm not too familiar with VF so I really don't know

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You're retarded

>Is the market too flooded? Would a new VF even sell?
The problem is, VF hasn't had an entry for over a decade, so zoomers don't know about it. That won't change without new entries, however.

A PC/console release of the newest arcade version would be the best and least expensive way.

Tekken also has round hurtbox and hitboxes like Melee

Bad news, you aren't in for much better in the sequel.

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Now we're circling back to the packets argument. You really are a disingenuous cunt aren't you.
>peer-to-peer is A-to-B
Don't ever start an ISP.
Clown world.

just tape the name of the characters on the screen + fighting game in google, fucking lazy brainlet

>473826749
>473826496
>473826298
>473822965
>473819142
Soulsfags will defend this.

>473826571
Go play Virtua Fighter 3tb then get back to me.

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What's wrong with this? It's a fucking ground slam that fucks your balance.

And that's a good thing.

Oh wait, I didn't see him lose half his hp lmao

Jesus fuck

The only information that has to be sent across the network is player position/orientation and the frames on which they input actions.
The positioning of the boxes coincide with the positioning of the character model's placement, everything else is managed client-side.

That would actually be fucking great. Unfortunately that's not what's happening in the webm.

I've played and completed all the soulsbourne games + sekiro, and while these hitboxes are a problem in all of the games to an extent, ds2 is by far the most egregious offender, on top of being the most bland copypasted bullshit they have thrown out. here's the official powerrankings on the goodometer™:
DeS=BB=DS>DS3>Sekiro>DS2

re: 473827387
I do know how to quote. None of those soulsfags deserve a (You) and neither do (You)..=

>that's because yuri is fucking shit
To an extent I agree user but from my years of experience I've found that a lot of the things I hate actually gel we'll with the things I like. Vinalla Yuri has never been my cup of tea. I find it boring and formulaic. At most I'd say it's kinda cute. But combine it with something else like "Age Difference" or "Incest" and then my interest starts to rise. What was once a typical bland story of two girls falling in love has now turned into the story of a older Onee-san lusting after her cute little imouto which is so much more palatable to my taste. To give an example that is not yuri, Feet by themselves give me no pleasure but feet combined with femdom and stocking becomes 10/10 fetish fuel. Try mixing the tag with stuff you like you might just realize the yuri wasn't the problem. The scenario was.
To summarize what I'm trying to say is I should've gone to sleep hours ago.

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Well the third one is objectively best in terms of accuracy. It's just a question of whether this causes the performance of the game to go to shit from trying to process all the boxes.

Without the correct visual indicators theres no way to tell how big that hitbox is or where its safe. Its a ground pound but it doesnt make a splash or have visual effect to show that is ground pound and thats it hitbox is bigger than the claw, but it only appears as if the claw has a hitbox (not the ground) on the windup .

DS2 was a mistake and that mob was one of the worst copypasted offenders. basically a damage sponge with no rewarding payoff.

Box collision is like the cheapest shit you could do.
Only problem with it is how tedious it would be to implement.

>Brainlet
It's accurate to the sprite so it's better!
>Gigabrain
All that matters is how it feels in game and balance

You can actually clearly see why this happened. The "cone" where the monster registers a grab is attached to his head, and his head tracks the person as they rolled.

The issue isn't the hitbox. Its the monster's head-tracking still being active during the canned attack animation. Although you could still blame the hitbox, but if headtracking wasn't still active he could've dodged it.

meant to reply to

> Monster hunter
Checks out

IS that shitbox ratings or game ratings
If it was hitbox I'd say DS1 and DS2 and BB are probably the worst.

If it's overall games I think it's DS > BB > Sekiro > Nio

Don't you mean hipchecks out

It's true, porn search engines aren't complex enough to get us what we really want, so we have to stick with umbrella fetishes. For example I like loli mostly for the size difference aspect, not necessarily the aspect of the girl being underage.

Another example I can think of is that someone made this sex toy that resembles an insect's ovipositor used for laying eggs, and uses some kind of gel to create and insert eggs up your asshole so you can push them out afterwards, which is apparently safe, and made to cater to people with an insect fetish.
I knew one guy who had something like this, though instead of wanting to simulate being fucked by an insect his fetish was to simulate being a chicken

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>I knew one guy who had something like this, though instead of wanting to simulate being fucked by an insect his fetish was to simulate being a chicken
What a plot twist at the end

it was overall scores, and I would put nioh on the same tier as sekiro. it was monotonous and I never finished it but at least it had replayability

The crabs are one of the few outliers in that game, most of the hitboxes are pretty tight outside of multiplayer phantom range due to latency.

>though instead of wanting to simulate being fucked by an insect his fetish was to simulate being a chicken

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You keep saying this like its the correct way to do something and based on some foundation that is also correct and not designed in a disingenuous way.

accurate maybe but accurate isn't always the best. All moves have an intended purpose and changing hitbox sizes are an important way making sure that move serves it purpose.

For example look at this webm.
Falcon's jab is a very fast move, its purpose is to be quick move that gets a close up opponent off of him. The hitbox is accurately placed around his arm and fist. However this hinders its ability to function properly. Pichu small stature allows him to duck underneath falcon's jab which defeats its purpose.

Also processing hitboxes is easy and not expensive having accurate hitboxes does not make it prohibitively more expensive.

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>Yea Forums discussing pornography.jpg

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Giant enemy crab

When even the smallest of fraction of a second counts, every additional layer of information is added burden to synchronize between two clients over an asynchronous connection (hops, hubs, bridges, etc) instead of using a single client. Short of magically teleporting people to an actual arcade cabinet there's no expense-free solution.
When you arbitrate hitboxes to do things other than visually intended you cause deception.
The problem clearly stems from balance being an afterthought, and the willingness to adjust was not cost-effective enough (within their arbitrary budget) to justify it.
If you create a fictitious entity and give it fictitious properties this creates more deception and balance problems.

The solution is to create a budget beforehand. Whether it be numerical for damage, size of characters, range, packet-size etc. It all must fall within a budget that isn't financial because that's another layer of arbitration.
>I can't do this right now because its too expensive, but maybe layer I can.
Then don't ever do it or it will cause powercreep unless you're willing to take the expense of redesigning your entire budget every time you're able to.

>why do medium height move whiff very short person
hmm i wonder

but seriously, these kinds of differences and quirks are easy to play around if you just fucking think about them for five seconds. pic related, Sol (the dude in red) is doing a move with upper-body invulnerability to punish Ky's sword. similarly, he can use Ground Viper (a special move that travels very close to the ground) to counter a very annoying long projectile. and the best part about this is that both of these cases are intuitive as hell: the attacks happen above the ground, at or higher than waist level, so there's some space left for you to crawl on the ground and cross-counter the attack from (or just sidestep the attack and grab the fucker's sword when he thrusts it forward)
as another example, take Sailor Moon S for the SNES: the shortest character, Chibi Moon, can not be hit by most normal attacks that aren't a low move from crouching position, which means you'll have to think about the whole fight differently when fighting her compared to more normal matchups where you can spam standing jab and high-flying fireballs as much as you want

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>all these deleted posts of an autist
lmao

>dark souls has bad hitboxes!

Imagine sucking so much you decide to blame the game.

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invincibility on a character's model is and always will be a shit inclusion
there is no counterplay to it apart from memorizing what parts of what characters during what times of what moves are invincible and playing around that
an important part of any competitive game is being able to understand what you did wrong and learning from that to improve which isn't enjoyable in the slightest when it's full of bullshit like invincibility, instant teleporting, etc.

Sorry, I'm not very good at fighting games. What do those boxes mean?

You are like little baby. Watch this.

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>shots working as would be unquestionably expected from any other game in existence is hitbox porn to soulsfags
really goes to show just how bad they have it

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Just try and imagine a fighting game with no invincibility frames and how fun it would be then you might realise how retarded you are.

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I'm not sure what your point is.

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RAN RAN RUU!

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What's the difference between the red boxes and the blue boxes?

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>Get hit by move you think you shouldn't have
>Realize it's either invincible or has a very fucking good hitbox
>Either go look up the hitbox or try to beat it until you learn what works

Wow so hard

Red is what hits the opponent if it touches their blue boxes
Blue is what gets you hit if it gets touched by the opponent's red

Red=Outgoing Hitboz for attacks
Blue=Character Hitbox for being hit

Remember: Dark Souls hitboxes are pretty much perfect, with very few actual shit ones sprinkled over few enemies that get posted over and over.

Dark Souls problem is shit netcode, nothing to do with hitboxes. Whenever you see a webm of some outrageous hitboxes, most likely that person is online and that is messing up the alignment of enemies hitboxes and their models.

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Ah I see, thanks. I don't really delve too deep into fighters beyond some casual tekken with mates.

blue are the guy kicking's hurt boxes and red are the hit boxes of his kick
if your blue box connects with an enemy's red box, they get hurt and the same goes for you

in guilty gear i think the only time there's invulnerability is during backdashes and 6P upper body invul, both of which are universally shared between all characters
really guilty gear has that kinda bullshit to a minimum. instead there's bullshit like attacks being longer than you'd expect them to be (axl low and johnny being key examples) and okizeme setups that will wreck you no matter what you do

my point is accuracy sometimes does not matter, and sometimes is detrimental to the gameplay, so stop being bothered by it or by lack of it. these quirks games derive from "inaccurate" hit/hurt boxes is what is most fun about the game, at least for me.
it's also why i like starcraft broodwar, even though i don't play it much. the fact that you can place buildings in such a way that Terran Marines will pass between them, but Protoss Zealots won't, changes the game a whole lot

>rasterizes entire polygon for hit detection
golly gee

Isn't the hitbox in DAS1 and 2 just a giant ass pillbox and during emotes it instantly changes places?

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No, it's literally your model. That's one of the reasons the online is shit, too much unnecessary info being transferred. Simpler, less precise hitboxes would actually make the game feel better and more precise.

Some specific attacks have weird hitboxes, but they are not so common. Dark Souls 2 has the most outrageous examples and that's why it get posted often. All souls games have broken grab attacks.

Tell me about the Blitztank

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Simpler hitboxes mean faster calculations for hits, meaning gameplay can be much faster, not to mention it accounts for lag better.

Are you stuck in an age where the CPS2 is the most advanced system?

Spent thousand hours on bbct, bbce, bbcse, bbcp.
Participate to offline tournaments and even won some. Stopped playing for a while. Came back but there is no players online anymore (in europe).

What should I play? Is guilty gear very similar to blazblue? I was a carl clover player

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street fighter, why overlap the boxes though?

No one is getting hit by that from full screen.

i think centralfiction is still alive.
GG is similar but not very. cross tag is very not similar by virtue of being a simplified crossover tag game

Not a fighting game.

goofy goobers is the poster boy of character specific combos, what the fuck are you smoking

Wow, you guys know a lot about hitboxes and fighting games.

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>though instead of wanting to simulate being fucked by an insect his fetish was to simulate being a chicken
O-Oh ... that's ... better?

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KoF > Skullgirls > Guilty Gear > Street Fighter

Nobody here has even mentioned SamSho boxes yet. They're all on a whole other level.

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Tekken uses spheres instead you fucking retard. And the hitbox of some moves is garbage.

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If I want to fool around with programming fighter.
Is there some engine people use? Or is it custom code?

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That entire image screams autism

Man Ace Combat 7 online must be near quantum PC levels then.

Fighting games don't work like your Counter-Strike. It should be precise and updated for every millisecond.

Samurai Showdown is my favorite fighting series so I agree its the best by default.

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>skullgirls
So that's what happens when you spend $20,000 on hitboxes.

BASED

Simplicity of calculation, and also for consistency in gameplay. If you want a move to hit in a certain way you make the hitbox a rectangle with the exact measures you want, and this way you know it will beat this or that attack when done at this or that time. Nobody wants to throw a jab and have it miss because it didn't exactly collide with the opponent who was in a weird pose by sheer luck.

In street fighter there is push both on hit and on block. So if your enemy blocks the attack, he or you moves back so he often isnt in range where he can punish you easily. So it kinda works as intended.

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>doesn't know what a polygon is
>calls other's stupid

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SUPERIOR LIMB BASED COMBAT

Welcome to the online age, grandpa. Locals still exist, but most people dont have others to play with, so they become online warriors.

Rectangle collisions require like 4 comparisons while circle collisions require square-roots and multiplication (distance formula). Entirely depends how much a sqrt function takes compared to comparing whether one value is larger than another.

You don't need sqrt, just square everything. Then it's a couple adds, mulitplys, and two conditionals.

have you even bought this

FUCK OFFF IMAO FUCKING TIRED OF YOUR PARTY GAME FAGGOTS THINKIBG YOURE HOTSHIT IN OUR FUCHKN G FGC FJCJIGOOOIOOIIFFKFKFJFFF

Wouldn't you only need one conditional? Sorry, been years since I've done any game programming.

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based user admiting to being a retard. we need more of you here

But that's wrong user

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yeah you're right

it does not matter what engine you use. old guilty gear was made in custom engines, new guilty gear is made in unreal, there's someone who made a fighting game in gamemaker and someone else in unity. all you need is hitbox/hurtbox collision detection and optionally netcode which you can steal from GGPO. clean code will perform good on any engine, messy code will perform bad on any engine, simple as.

>Comparing a party fighter to traditional fighting games

I love skullgirls and I think they do the animations and art well enough where the hitboxes in their method never feels imbalanced. That being said, I think guilty gear is the way to go these days at the least. Nobody wants a "WTF HOW DID THAT HIT ME" moment

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>The crabs are one of the few outliers in that game, most of the hitboxes are pretty tight outside of multiplayer phantom range due to latency.
Right and while a few questionable hitboxes is a flaw it's also something that might have been done for balance reasons and be more interesting for most players anyway. Dark Souls is about spotting tells and timing your roll correctly as much as it is about visual positioning. Ideally both will match but in the cases where it doesn't it's not nearly as big a deal as autistic Yea Forums detractors try to claim.

The DS2 webm is bullshit because the player did everything right and still got fucked. Hence that's the game that only a handful of dedicated contrarians actually like the best.

Skull Girls unironically.

isn't that kind of what NRS does with their fighting games?

Ah another v roleplaying thread about why they suck at a genre

Even if non convex polygon collision is orders of magnitude more difficult to compute than AABB collisions, it ltierally doesn't fucking matter for two characters in a fighting game because any modern cpu can do thousands of them instantly anyway.

so why still use AABB?

Street Fighter's style. It allows players to be aggressive but also rewards those on the defensive for making good reads and playing good footsides. Also how the fuck does Guilty Gear's style work in practice? Do the game's attacks have more recovery frames to make up for the lack of hurtboxes in attacks or what?

if you have to use custom configs just to make your game "fighting" it isnt a fighting game. theres a reason why sakurai added a smash meter but the "community" didnt like this vision and just band half the stages and rules. what other current fighters do this?

why do fighting games still use boxes?
is there a game play reason for it or are the Japanese lazy?

I hope I once get first to a promising thread so I can post good bait and get a lot of (You)s like this

Based

>No, it's literally your model. That's one of the reasons the online is shit, too much unnecessary info being transferred. Simpler, less precise hitboxes would actually make the game feel better and more precise.

This is not how anything works at all. No hitbox data needs to be sent over the network besides player position. The actual reason Souls online is because it's a PvE game and can't afford to introduce local latency. "Phantom range" is a result of there being no input compensation, it has nothing to do with hitboxes. The alternative to this system is having all of your moves come out 0.2s after you press the button, which they don't do for obvious reasons.

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FGCucks are so easy to bait, holy shit
Is it the rampant autism, the insecurity over an aging, dying scene, or both?

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bad at games

>make the actual 3d model the hitbox
Congrat, you now run at 0.1 FPS on a supercomputer.

lots of games do per-poly hit detection, very old games like doom 3 for example. There's also per-pixel hit detection like in red orchestra but really it's better to keep the mechanics more ambiguous, beyond what you see as it allows for far more interesting game play and strategizing.

Just came into this thread to say that SF hitboxes are retarded, and the pushback on hit and block pretty much makes SF unplayable for me.

for shits and giggles there should be "low tier melee" one where the hitbox goes up to his shin and there's one on his forehead

>wii fit trainer

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The fuck games are you playing that don’t have pushback on hit

If they do, it's not to the extent that SF has.

youtu.be/2sC16Uu-_WQ

mfw

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dark souls"" entire series

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Boxes are way easier to program, and feel better than sprite based collision detection. Not only that, but they are also less intensive due to having less computations for collision. Also, every fighting game developer uses boxes, not just the Japanese. The japanese just make better fighting games.

>Not only that, but they are also less intensive due to having less computations for collision
but it's literally just two models and a background, how hard and inventive is it compared to an fps?

It doesnt matter how hard or inventive it is. What matters is game feel and response. The only reason FPS games have the system they do is because they are going for a realistic approach. A realistic fighting game is more like Footsies: hifight.github.io/footsies/. This, while fun for a bit, does not have the same feeling as playing a fighting game with a diverse cast with strengths and weaknesses. In addition, adjusting hitboxes makes balancing much easier in the long run.
tl;dr - fps games shouldn't be compared to fighting games. Apples and oranges.

>DUDE IT'S SO SIMPLE WHY BOTHER OPTIMIZING LOL
You're exactly why games are 50+GB now.

Don't forget, levelling ADP gives your rolls more iframes
Oh wait, they don't tell you this
And they don't tell you at what levels you get a new iframe
Lol just leave it up to the community to fucking brute force figure out on release day lol

>but it's literally just two models and a background, how hard and inventive is it compared to an fps?
You know that most FPSs don't use model collision either, right? They use hitboxes.
youtu.be/gh5Fg5d_uBU
youtu.be/Z4U81AwXBIA
youtu.be/nv1tT0dGCus

Consistency. It was an intentional decision in SF4 and up development to make the hitboxes large rectangles. it looks less intuitive, but when you are playing its actually more intuitive, not just because all combos work on all characters but because its very clear what will go under certain moves and what won't while with super refined hitboxes you can get weird instances of certain moves at certain times in the animation being able to avoid another move that it normally doesn't.

Don't try to latch onto others stupidity with your bait just to get (You)s.
This is the only one you'll be receiving and be thankful.

KoF looks best in the image. SF is fine until you get to characters that use ranged weapons that get whiff punished by a punch 3 feet away from them and just looks silly (ie. SFV Poison) and could probably be remedied by having them step a little more forward during their attack animations. SG sounds good on paper to anyone who has never touched a fighting game or casuals until you see the concept put to the test and it feels like ass as a result and rebalance patches are probably a nightmare unless you ditch the model-matching hitboxes because you might have to reanimate several attacks.

dude, you just linked two games from 2007, it's now 2019.
Csgo doesn't have square hitboxes anymore.

>You're exactly why games are 50+GB now.
I would be that guy if the games were actually good :^)

Square roots are retarded fast on CPUs released after 2000 or so.
Actually, you can get away with pixel per pixel checking even on a 300 Mhz ARM CPU.

What's wrong with skullgirls?

Please link me to one modern FPS that isn't an autistic milsim where they use model collision instead of hitboxes.

Yeah and we can get away with making bipedal tanks. Treads still win though.

csgo.

lol retard
square roots are still one of the more expensive operations you can do and you don't need them at all to do collision checks. just compare the square of the distances instead of square rooting them.

FYI hitboxes have been obsolete for over 10 years since detection can be assigned to the character model mesh...if anyone could be bothered to do it.

wrong.

no one fucking cares faggot.

It's been said multiple times, but that doesn't work for 2D games where the Z-Axis isn't accessible. You create awkward move interactions and make it near-impossible to significantly buff or nerf an attack in any way other than frame data, and sometimes that doesn't actually solve the problem.

Lack of consistency. Simple as that. Certain combos will drop because of character model. You would think that it wouldn't matter, but that's why hitboxes and hurtboxes matter a lot.

Basically what you are saying is if hits were accurate your lil anime totally not 12yo magic girls would get killed by the male characters all the time and thats bad?

the fuck is this garbage? holy fuck

Yes, but they only use hitboxes because they want.
Any discussion about performance is useless given you can use any sort of collision you want on a modern CPU and still keep solid 60 FPS, or even do a fighting game that run at 144 FPS.
Let's not even do x86 here, let's do fucking ARM:
infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0439b/BEHJADED.html
14 cycles per SQRT.
Yes, its 14 times slower than a multiply, but supposing you're a fucking cheapstake and is running this CPU at 300 Mhz, that's 21 million square roots per second.
Supposing you have two characters on a 3D fighting game running at 240 FPS on this CPU (somehow), you get 12000 distance checks per character per frame.

This is how irrelevant the performance is.

>sfv
why.jpg

I play grapplers my man. In fact this problem hurts the big characters more, since a lot of their attacks might just go over the heads of little girl characters. There's a reason Zangief has two Lariats; one that has a high hitbox and one that has a low hitbox, despite having the same animation, allows him to handle situations differently.

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No, what he's saying is that if hits were accurate, 12yo little magic girls would duck under EVERY move and be unstoppable. Hitboxes are designed like that for a reason, and it is for balancing purposes among other things.

Actually nevermind I'm retarded and can't follow a reply chain.

CS:GO literally, functionally still uses hitboxes instead of model collision you mongoloid. Try again.

How many cycles does it take to compare if a variable is larger than another?

Not even SG wanted it because it created all these weird specific and inconsistent combos and situations. The DLC characters have much more simple hitboxes and they made changes to the original cast

Not 100% sure but i bet around 4 if not equal,4+pipeline size if equal.
Given again ARM, you have to load the variables into the register, perform a subtraction and then do a conditional jump based on the negative flag.
So the loads take a cycle each, the sub take another cycle and then the conditional branch will be predicted as not taken, so 1 cycle if not taken, and a pipeline stall if taken, which on a modern ARM CPU is like 14 cycles.

So how does collision detection between two rectangles (at least 4 comparison statements) compare to collision detection between two circles?

>people still pretending to care about fighting games even after EVO is over
Just give it up already, your 2 weeks of constant threads are over. Just obediently and silently wait for evo 2020.

Its probably pretty close if you only use the regular FPU
Circle you have the SQRT pulling shit down, but box collision you have all the subs.

Also i just noticed i grossly miscalculated my first answer because i did three SQRTs per test, but you actually only use one.
(its SQRT(x*x+y*y+z*z) instead of SQRT(x*x)+SQRT(y*y)...) so its probably closer to 35000 tests per frame per character.

If anything, sfv would benefit from more pushback

Where did you learn this low-level stuff?

But assuming sqrt's take far more than multiply, wouldn't using equation give circles an edge on rectangles?

>more people like it so its better
shouldnt you be watching the big bang theory and drinking ur onions lattes?

Maybe, but its still quite irrelevant in general.

The only thing that matters in fighting games is the jiggle physics. Everything else is irrelevant.

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Dude gg hitboxes are so wonk that i have 5 different combos with axl out of a throw midscreen that i have to choose based on what char im playing against, and lets not talk about its stupid weight system

>lots of games do per-poly hit detection
Only when raytracing (ie: a "laser" bullet).
In such games you'll notice that physics hitbox are different than bullet hitbox.
Those are called collision layers. Even fucking fallout does it (you can shoot a corpse but will walk trough it/can't pile them on each other).

Actual complex hitbox hitting another complex hitbox ?

It's legit supercomputer having issues running it. Instead of raytracing from one point one direction (a bullet), you have to raytrace for EVERY point of EVERY surface in EVERY direction.

That's why hitbox are always simple shape. Because you can solve them with well known math-equations. Instead of being recursive tracing unsolvable hell, it become
=> Do any of the edges of my square (easily calculable) get closer to a point in space than a set amount i:e : do my fucking square collide with a circle.

Eh I used to be obsessed with optimization, so minute details like this interest me.

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It's because of stuff like the weight system that I'm not too worried about daisuke's twitter post

>But assuming sqrt's take far more than multiply
If you sqrt like a retard yes.
What you can do instead is Newtown method with 1 or 2 iterations + a table for initial guess. This is how 3D games were even made possible.

If you need the inverse, you can even simplify further.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

t. doesn't play fightan

For good reason. Why the hell would anybody censor a game that is meant to have lots of fanservice? If anything they should've added to it, rather than take away from it.

I remain convinced that DaS2 doesn't have fans who like DaS2 itself, they just enjoy specific features of it a lot and resent the lack of them in other games (ascetics, powerstances, etc)

I will never understand Arcsys' decision to fund BBCTB over BBCF or GGXrd when they already had a anime team fighter that was vastly more popular than BBCTB.

Do they just enjoy cannibalizing themselves or something?

Get into HLSL, write shaders for Unreal/Unity, make money.

This, I have no idea what the fuck the other user is talking about. Basically all 3D games use hitboxes, "make the model the hitbox" could be just as easily said for 2D sprites. This is genuinely reddit tier ignorance.

BBTag legitimately only exists because Mori wanted to make a RWBY game and he disguised the pitch as a crossover between Blazblue and other franchises with existing sprites; the reused assets gave him enough budget to acquire the rights to RWBY characters and make brand new sprites for them.

You must understand that Mori is Waifufag Prime; ArcSys needed his power to get BB off the ground and popular so they could get money and buy Guilty Gear from SEGA in order to make Xrd. He did have a purpose, but now Guilty Gear is back and about to be bigger/better than ever in 2020 while FighterZ was received very well and GBFVs is about to get that Cygames money behind it.

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I know it's late but no single video capture mugen as perfectly as this one to me.

youtube.com/watch?v=ljJ1IKFHa7U

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>17 frames of startup
>-14 on block
It's not nearly as good as it looks

youtu.be/zkZhTt3KSjI

>It's another "attack out of context" post
Yawn

>trash

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youtube.com/watch?v=XaJyZ7lmHiM

>yoshis tongue doesnt even touch marth only his sword
>marth lunges forward and touches yoshis fucking massive nose
morth grob too big

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I've watched that gif a hundred times by now (on top of watching/playing a decent amount of Melee) and I legitimately never noticed how far Marth actually extends his arm during his grab until this post.

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The problem is that it isnt intuitive, falcon even crouches when he jabs and it touches pichu, but still no hit, the thing is that in sailor moon and in most fighting games, all chars have a crouching jab or short that functions almost identically to a standing jab, but smash doesnt have that, in falcons case his crouching attack is kinda like a sweep, is very punishable and its not a close quarter attack, so without his jab he has no tools to contest pichu up close, thats bad fucking design and if they just expanded the hitbox downwards it would solve the problem

Also, funny you mention an arc sys game in your example, because they are solving the exact same problem that webm has by giving granblues smallest character, charlote, a hurtbox on her crown

Which ever one allows me to play wall-ball in the corner

I don't play fighting games. Why isn't the Skullgirls one objectively the best? It's the one that's most accurate to the model right?

It makes it difficult to balance. A move that would counter the kick attack picture in the OP would be a low sweep that lowers the character's hurtbox and attacks where no hitbox exists. If the attacking player's hurtbox is so close to their actual sprite then there's a chance that doing the sweep will actually whiff unless the character has really long legs or explicitly moves forward for the start of the animation. That's one example of many where hurtboxes that aren't 1:1 but still mostly follow the model/sprite like Guilty Gear's are better. Skullgirls' approach also adds a lot more dev time since you're doing these meticulous layers of hurtboxes on every frame of animation, and then later on when you need to rebalance moves you can't really deviate from that so you have less options to buff or nerf normals.

Literally dozens of explanations already on this thread but to summarise

1 Considerably easier for balancing
2 Better to create interesting gameplay scenarios
3 More consistency
4 Allows more artistic freedom with animations and models (good luck implementing model collision in a 3d arc sys game with those fucking wanky ass stretched models)
5 Less stupid shit happening like my attack whiffed couse the enemy was on frame 24 of his idle animation instead of frame 25

I used to think so due to the strange way that they portray attack frames in MK9 but actually that's just extra work they did to accomplish what showing a box could have.

Only if you'd end up with less than twice the circles, compared to squares. After that it becomes less efficient.
Who cares anyway? The number of hit boxes that need to be calculated in a regular fighting game is so low that doubling it would produce no noticeable performance loss.

Except that was fixed already.
Certain characters still need some specifics because they are tall/wide/slim/heavy but no one should fall out of your combo unless you fuck up or were doing a combo that didnt work in the fisrt place, and there are universals anyway but they're less optimal if you cant learn more than 1 combo.

haha

Don’t forget that you can’t reverse beat it so you have to special cancel it.
The real UNIST button is Yuzu’s 4B

Also FUCK PHONON’S 4B

and replace them with what you cumstain

>melty blood hitboxes reaching that high

Just use polygons

Yes, it was fixed with correcting hit and hurt boxes. I have no idea what you're trying to say here. If you're arguing towards on model hitboxes, I would beseech you to go play a fighting game.

0 seconds since nintendoodlers sperg out over bait

Modern engines allow that because they use a technique sometimes refered to as "hierarchical bounding volumes."

Given two meshes, each of roughly N triangles, a brute-force collision detection would need something like N^2 comparisons. By first grouping neigboring triangles into bounding volumnes (i.e. hitboxes) and iteratively grouping hitboxes into bigger hitboxes, a tree hierarchy is established. At that point comparisons for collision detection only need to 'look inside' a pair of big top-level hitboxes if they actually intersect, because that would signal the lower level boxes (and eventually the mesh triangles) *possibly* intersect.

It reduces the number of comparisons to log N and makes the entire thing fast enough to run in real-time.

Such a 'hitbox tree' is computed beforehand as part of the content-creation process and stored with the model, so there's no runtime penalty associated with it, other than needing just a tiny bit more RAM memory.

The idea is that women fighting in short skirts will incidentally show their underwear at times. The two or three panty shots they removed were of their own creative decisions, not to appeal to a ratings board or anything like that, and were certainly a gratuitous "just because" kind of panty shot that contradicts their stated design philosophy.