Nintendo will never make pay to win DL-

bayo already existed you idiot

Where is you trophy, user?

I can't wait for this waterfall of tears to hit Banjo.
I hope one of the last two characters is something ridiculous in concept and winds up "broken" to shitters.

Leo will never allow Samsora to win a S class.

>Literally only ONE GUY
>ONE SINGLE SOLITARY DUDE is winning with Joker
>NO ONE else
>Retards still think Joker is broken
Joker is not overpowered, Leo is overpowered. When Leo won with Ike people bitched and moaned about Ike, when Leo won with Lucina people bitched and moaned about her too. Its not them. It's Leo.

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I want Chosen Undead to be in and be able to parry and riposte people for Ganon f-smash tier damage.

>mkleo starts maining Ike
>Yea Forumstards: Ike is so fucking broken goddamn it nerf pls
>mkleo starts maining joker
>Yea Forumstards: Joker is so fucking broken goddamn play to win dlc
why is everyone on this board so bad at video games

spoiler alert: banjo's autistic manchild fanbase won't allow anyone to criticize him for being pay-to-win without accusing you of being a "stevefag."

We are forgotten...

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he almost lost 3 times
they just choked cause they couldnt believe they were winning

Stay mad.

?

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that a move can isntakill at 0%, yeah I'm mad that's nonsense

Arsene is busted and clearly got Leo out of pretty grim situations.

He's not broken. Among the best characters probably, but not broken. MKLeo is just really good at the game and chose to main him. If the character was actually broken, you'd see a lot more top level players using him. Just look at the usage of Meta Knight in Brawl and Bayonetta in 4 for comparison.

it happens that the smash community is full of crybabies. armada himself said that everyone who says joker is carrying leo should shut the fuck up.

Sakurai never knew how to proper balance smash becase it isn’t a fighting game.

Because you're mediocre as fuck.

T.has never fought against a joker online before,evar

without arsene joker usually kills until 200%. just watch the matches. if the best player in the world is struggling to kill with him what do you think it means?

>Joker gets Arsene
>approach him anyway instead of being patient
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE WHY AM I LOSING
Smash players, ladies and gentlemen. Any other competitive game, players would develop strategies and counter-measures for characters they KNOW get results. But Smash players are too fucking stubborn to use logic. Just nerf anything you're unfamilair with, makes total sense.

>be Ridley
>shitstomp Jokers and Yuushas all day long

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>B-but Joker isn't OP! MKLeo carried him!

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Because the only things that make you broken are your spells and everyone realized how shit most of your spells are and how close they have to be to you for the spells to actually work

No one shields with hero anymore, they just dodge

No the opponents were just making a fuckton of mistakes and letting Arsene shit on them.

>Raito made it to top 8 with Duck Hunt in 4 and Ultimate

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Nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to approach a Joker with Arsense you dense faggot. Wait it out. Punish him if he gets impatient and tries to chase you down. There is a button on your controller than can be used to block and dodge attacks. Use it.

t. Joker main

No, the character is busted, plain and simple. He's better than Smash 4 Sheik.

>Implying random shitters online have any relevance to the competitive scene
Just because you suck ass at smash and got destroyed online by a joker doesnt make the character broken.

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Arsene is overtuned because he's active for a while and it's easy to restore guage. He needs limit on that

Alright let me rephrase. Joker is fine, Arsene is strong but that's his purpose. The issue is that the mechanics that "limit" Arsene are busted and don't do their job.

literally this. samsora wiped the floor with leo in winners because he actually waited arsene out. how the fuck is that hard to understand?

If Joker is broken why is every tournament top 8 not full of Jokers then?

Yikes

Why are smashers such fucking babies?

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>Block his projectiles
>He runs up and grabs you
>Dead from grab
Plus, he's faster than 80% of the cast, has as much range AND speed as Roy, with the knockback and damage of Peach.

Nerfing him couldn't possibly hurt. Just lower his weight to a reasonable level so he isn't a fucking middle-weight with lightweight speed and heavyweight damage.

He still shouldn't get something like that for being comboed, whenever sam caught him out and did ~60 damage leo gets arsene and resets neutral, sometimes outright kills him. Leo is an insane player, but Joker getting rewarded like that for getting comboed is very silly.

>parry and riposte is just another down B sword counter
FUCK

Go back you underaged phoneposting faggot

>Make Rebellion Gauge rise less slowly from being hit
>Make it rise the same regardless of how many stocks you have
>Make Arsene stay out for maybe 5 seconds less
There we go. I fixed Joker. I play as him and even I can admit he's easily the best character in the game when he's at an advantage.

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You had time to to complain when amibo came out son.

If Joker was overpowered you would see a lot more people getting tops with Joker, and you don't.

I'm just happy as an inkling main the nerf incels aren't looking at us anymore

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So, will Leo kill the Ultimate scene singlehandedly since people are clearly fed up with watching his Joker already?

Theres nothing to fix retard. The character isnt broken.

The fuck are you standing around letting him hit you with projectiles for? RUN THE FUCK AWAY FROM HIM UNTIL ARSENE IS GONE. It isnt rocket appliances.

>Everyone else bitches about his damage and rng
>He's actually solid at best

That's literally the fucking case.

The only change I would make is landing slightly more landing lag on downward gun (not rainstorm) I noticed multiple times it let's Leo return to neutral even when blocked and is overall pretty ignorant.

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No.

>Don't buff or nerf characters unless they're broken!

ITT: SHITTER COPE

He's new and most of the top 8 are dedicated to certain characters? Raito pretty much exclusively practices Duck Hunt. The rest of the tournament was full of Jokers, he was one of the most represented characters. Meanwhile the top 8 are all autistic and stick to one character.

But I'm sure you'll say Peach isn't good because only 1 person brought her to top 8.

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The only people complaining about Joker are Meleefags that want everyone to think Smash 5 is dying

I wish Leo would main some random ass character like Puff or Lucas just to see how long people will ask for nerfs for whatever character he plays.

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Who knows?

>See him approach
>Jump
>Throw out a hit box
>Move the fuck away

What is the point of this meme? It always just ends with OP getting dick in their face, immediately. You're fucking setting yourself up for failure.

>parry/riposte works on actual parries and gives you a 14 frame window for whatever.
>weapon swapping like PT swaps mons

The only people complaining about Joker are under the age of 18 and they exclusively play online

That's twitch desktop you fucking idiot, you can even see chrome on the filename and not IMG that would signify it as a phone post

The new Twitter layout shares the same shitty one on both desktop and mobile.

Ok, so people are just going to keep watching even though they are bored by Leo's Joker and groan whenever Arsene pops out and he starts winning? Views aren't going to drop at all if this continues?

Banjo will join in once he's out.

Well, if OP is always a fag. Maybe that's the goal?

why are people whining over joker. my god. whining and crying nerfs and patches because they exist now. this is why we can't have nice things. we abuse it and cry nerf and carried when our favorite player loses

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>uses twitch AND chrome
Don't you have algebra class in a few hours, user? Maybe you should go to bed.

where do you go to find v arenas, when i ask in vg i just get "u know this general isnt for just arenas its for muh discussion about waifu" with no codes

inb4 a fucking discord

>The rest of the tournament was full of Jokers
>Image only shows a single joker

>Only a single Joker player at the top level
>P2W P2W P2W I LOST TO HIM AT 3MIL GSP
lol

Thats not even true retard. Its like 50

>bro just win. It's impossible to lose on defense

LIMIT ARSENE TO ONCE PER STOCK

Arsene lasts for a long ass time, and Joker has way too much stage control. You pretty much have to play ring-around-the-ledge with him, constantly mixing him up and dodging back to the ledge for invincibility for 20 seconds. And if he ever gets a grab or a combo-extender, you're dead. Hell, he just needs to land one f-smash and you're fucked. His f-smash hits as hard as Ganondorf's. You know how much everyone would be complaining if the G-man had his f-smash reduced to frame 10?

Leo got a LOT more dominant after Joker.

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t. onlineonly. Your opinion doesn't matter.

a "scene" is not just viewers

>bro don't trust the results, trust my rando wi-fi ass

because the game is unbalanced and these things need attention.
p2w DLC is absolute dogshit. if this were any other game then Yea Forums would throw a fit

>people who could never place high a tournament and stuck playing mcdonalds wifi "elite" smash are fed up about a single player winning with a character

yeah lmao these people don't matter, they think they have a voice but they are crying into a pillow about playing field they will never have access to

literally the only reason people complain about Joker is because MKLeo stops their favorite Smasher from winning top 8, this entire thing is a popularity contest

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It literally fucking isn't. If he isn't nerfed, 6 months from now Joker will be all over the tournament scene. He's only been out since late April and has already won evo.

The only thing that I'd change about Joker is how fast he gains meter, especially from Rebel's Guard. It shouldn't fill up from just a couple attacks. The player should have to work harder to get Arsene.

Also, why does Joker start stocks with about a quarter of free meter? That should be removed too. Character is fine otherwise, though. Definitely very good but not broken.

So you think that its fine to get arsene when you get your ass kicked? The character probably isn't op but its pretty shit design that you simply take around a half stocks worth of damage to get one of the strongest comback mechanics in the game.

So, how does this mean that Joker's broken? If you take MKleo out of the picture the character has absolutely zero results. All youre showing to me is that Leo is a better player than everyone else. Keep in mind that Leo had already won multiple majors before Joker even came out with other characters.

Joker isn't broken, but he's the best character in the game and a nerf to Arsene would only be a good thing, I think. Anyone who says otherwise is being a contrarian for no reason.

>muh melee boogeyman

thats the worst balance opinion ive seen yet, you can control how fast you get him but theres no lowering that bar, if that were the case have the bar fill and then press down b to activate i guess, still sounds stupid if you ask me

no one is saying peach isn't good you stupid nigger. we are saying joker would be way more represented after pools if he was truly broken. he is good, he might be the best character but he isn't broken. deal with it.

Oh, I guess Peach, Fox, and Wolf aren't good either, they only got 1 result in top 8.

>Joker uses Rebel's Guard
>DURRR I WILL HIT HIM
Literally do anything but hit him user. I believe in you, I know you're not THAT retarded. You could even set the controller down on the floor and you would be doing the right thing. Grab him. Literally fucking anything but hit him.

literally only one guy is doing it. people will bitch when leo plays another character and dominates. or you fags just hate leo. fucking patch culture

>without arsene joker usually kills until 200%
Literally not true, drag down Uair is a confirm at normal kill percents. Multi hit Dair, strong dair, etc.

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Literally every fighting game with meter rewards you for taking damage by filling up the meter. Do you complain about that too?

You could, you know, throw out some attacks while playing keepaway.
>B-but counter
If he is spamming counter, grab. If you're getting countered often, mix it up and stop being obvious.

More like "Bro just learn the fucking match up"

Leo could use King fucking K. Rool and you dense faggots would whine that he's overpowered. Get good and stop playing online.

guess so retard feel free to prove otherwise
see you at evo

Joker will not get meaningful nerfs because people paid for the character and taking away power from a DLC character is basically taking money away from the person paying for the character. You're not going to see any particularly meaningful adjustments to the character's kit so long as a profit motive is in play.

Then why do we still only have ONE Joker placing well?

>tfw I have to agree with Leffen on something for once

Feels weird but this is still facts

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ssbwiki.com/Tournament:EVO_2019

Considering he's been out for all of 3 months, he's got some pretty nifty results. More than any other new character except for Inklings.

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See
Where was the God MKLeo before Joker? He's only winning literally every major AFTER maining joker.

why does nintendo get away with making their games blatantly p2w? first bayo now this....

fuck off. joker is painful to play against online regardless.

based big leff

Good to know you're arguing in bad faith just because you don't want your main to get nerfed.

>tfw the word broken just means strong to very good the majority of the time
Bayonetta in smash 4 was broken. Meta Knight in brawl was broken. Joker does not seem broken. He seems good, but that may be entirely because of how good MkLeo is.

BUFF JOKER
NERF ARSENE

>The rest of the tournament was full of Jokers, he was one of the most represented characters
>Posts an image with 1 Joker
Are you trying to disprove yourself?

talks about bad faith while attempting to poison the well instead of arguing on the merits of the evidence LAMO
aint gonna win evo like that bro

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based leffen with brains
no he's not. you just suck and not know the matchup

Here's a storyline: Joker gets nerfed, Leo moves on to some other character and continues winning, that character gets nerfed, Leo moves on to some other character and keeps winning, repeat ad nauseum. No one will escape this twilight zone until they can beat Leo, not his character.

He's been out for 3 months and only MKLeo has switched to him? Zer0 could probably hop back into the competitive scene maining Joker and make it to top 8.

>Just play fucking perfect bro, it's that easy
Tell that to Tweek.

It's like everything now where words have no meaning.
Broken can also mean characters that suck.

Wow the smash community is actual garbage. Nothing but whiny bitches as far as the eye can see.

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Rebel's Guard comes out frame 3. It can be very hard to predict. Granted, Samsora did act a bit retarded in grand finals with all the turnips he was tossing at Leo, but in many situations, Joker is able to activate Rebel's Guard AFTER you've already committed to an option.

Leo flipped the script on a lot of crowd favorites

this. these faggots just hate leo

Pichu, Peach, Olimar, and Mega Man all received nerfs for far less. I think Joker needs to be toned down with them. Getting Arsene 20 - 30% later isn't going to dumpster the character. You could probably nerf him as hard as Bayo was nerfed between games and he'd still be better than a good 1/3rd of the cast.

Are you new?
Like are you seriously new, Cloud and Bayonetta already did this.

There are literally 5 Jokers in that whole listing for results.
And most of them aren't the only character the player used.
How the fuck is this "nifty results"?

I agree, but this retard also bitches about Hero.

If he was that broken, more would have switched already.
See: Bayo in Sm4sh

Sounds more like most Ult players are mind gamed by Leo than anything.

Getting real tired of the Leffen cocksucking as of late.

because that character clicks with him?? have you not seen other games scenes? sometimes players go through streaks of winning with a character no else is really good with. in smash alone:

>armada with peach
>hbox with puff
>zero with diddy

you are embarrassing yourself.

That just seems like a timing thing since half those joker listings took place within a week of eachother.

Like, you can fit all of Smash Factor 8, EVO 2019, and Smash Con 2019 within the time between Smash Conference United and Glitch 6 just taking place.

Don't mind me, we produce the best players jajajaajaja

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This would be mind shatteringly hilarious to see. The literally number 1 fan favorite character being hated because he's broken. I want to see it

Very little other characters in smash get this, there is rage, but its nowhere as strong as arsene. Its fine in other fighting games because both players always have it unconditionally, but in smash literally only Lucario and Joker has something like it, also fighting games are usually health based, so getting low can really lower your chances of winning, while you can get to 200 in smash and still live. Don't get me wrong Leo is a God since he really utilizes all of Joker's options, but arsene is too easy to get for what its worth.

Nah, Leo is great. I just hate Joker because he's way too damn powerful and completely invalidates any heavy that isn't Bowser or DK. I want to be able to play heavies in Elite without running into a big fat L every 3 - 4 rounds because now everyone is playing the best character in the game that also destroys anyone slower than Pikachu

>Where was the God MKLeo before Joker?
Watch Ultimate summit, he was literally on another level in that tournament.
Tweek and Marss weren't there, but he stomped Gluto and Dabuz really badly with Lucina.

I really need to go back to trying to main Joker. I completely forgot how to play him while I was trying to main Hero, but Hero is so fucking bad it hurts to try to be good with him.

Hero literally exists for shitters to collect some free Ws. Joker gives shitters a free Ganondorf bro when they hit 60% just in case they need one. Banjo will probably just randomly start the opponent on one less stock at the rate we're going.

I agree with you, but honestly at this point I don't care as much when it comes to squandering this MKLeo slander

just learn the matchup and battle arena with joker. he still has his weaknesses

You’re peach analogy is retarded and you honestly should just kill yourself. Broken and high/top tier aren’t synonymous.

>Lucina
Swordies are busted in this game, that much should be apparent with Chrom somehow being usable despite being Mac 2.0. Disjoints are way more powerful in Ultimate due to the normalization of frame data.

Smash is the only FGC scene whom sees Gods as cancer killing their game instead as sone great obstacle to overcone. You don't see people bitching about Knee/Arsen in T7, or even Sonicfox in MK, to the extent of ZeRo/MKLeo in Smash.

They are all babies with weaker mental fortitude than Punk. You could easily feel the dread in the arena and commentary every moment Leo activated Arsene. That is just embarrassing.

They already did in the last game though

I fucking hate Lucina

just make him burn through it faster

She was a *lot* more entertaining to watch than fucking Arsene. And I mean a LOT.

He literally doesn't. The only thing I can think of is that you can more easily 2-frame him with Arsene's recovery, but he's almost never in disadvantage with Arsene to begin with. He's stronger than Smash 4 Diddy.

Its because smash community is full of way more underage children and autistic retards than the fan bases of normal fighting games are.

How close was grand finals? I've been waiting for it to get uploaded

Asking for nerfs are for bad players who can't git gud. If they literally can't beat clones imitating one good player online then they have no business playing competitively. They should go play games that hold their hands, like JRPGs or something.

That literally removes a portion of his kit from being used, that's a terrible way to balance a character

Anyone who genuinely thinks Leo is carried is retarded.
That being said, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that arsene could use a bit of a nerf.
I don't care if Leo keeps winning despite it (he probably would), I just want less bullshit arsene moments in otherwise hype matches.

Why couldn't he back up his shit talk towards Melee?

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I just pray to god that Sakurai never listens to your bitch asses and leaves Joker as he is and that he unleashes a truly OP DLC ala Bayonetta so that tourneyfags seethe eternally.

smash is a party game, not a fighter

>Make Arsene come out 20 - 30% later
>Nerf weight to be 86
>Make Rebel's Guard disruptable like most other Super/Heavy Armor moves in the game
There, he's fixed without actually nerfing the things that makes him unique and fun. Suddenly he actually has some real flaws and isn't just a better Lucario.

>don't be Leo
>pay for Joker
>lose
Bro?

It was like EVO's all over again

People here have the mindset of teenagers, so a little bit of reverse psychology by saying things that everyone will call you out on or posting some nice tits helps to get threads rolling when you don't feel like putting in any actual effort to spark a compelling discussion about a game

If Joker is as dominant as everyone claims how come the only Joker in the top 32 at Evo was Leo? Maybe just fucking maybe Leo is actually a really good player and actually earned that #1 in the world spot?

EVO 2.0

Isn't Arsene like, the weakest and shittiest Persona you get in P5? And the game straight up tells you to throw him in the trash can as soon as you can?
It's kind of funny he's such a powerhouse in Smash.

this. they stick to complaining that they can't win and think when some character gets nerfed they'll flip flop and go towards the illusion they are somehow good overnight and now dominate "x' nerfed character all the time now. congratulations for the fake victory. it's pathetic.

t. Joker main. You never see Peach, Inkling, Olimar, Mega Man, or any other top tier character mains get THIS defensive over their characters. Most Olimar players were okay with their character getting nerfed because they knew he was overly strong.

This. Tweek and Samsora were doing great until they broke down and choked. They defeated themselves just as much as Leo beat their asses.

In addition to this
>make Arsene last 25% less time when active
>when Arsene, meter drains 25% faster

If Peach is good, why is Samsora the only Peach in top 32? If Fox is good why is Light the only one in top 32? If Wolf is good, why is Zackray the only one in top 32?

Your logic is wrong.

Even other top players can't pilot Joker.
VoiD got knocked out of SSC early trying to do it and Nairo realized he was better off sticking to tried-and-true Palutena.

I'm a Joker player and I want Arsene to come out later, elss often, and last less long. Then Joker would be fine.

Are you also gonna say that Ike is broken too?

They should buff Base Joker and nerf Arsene.
Vice versa for their recoveries though (buff Wings of Rebellion and Nerf Grappling Hook)
This keeps the character basically the same power-wise, and makes it so that retards will have to come up with another argument besides "comeback mechanics" to shit on Leo.

there were two foxes in this top 8

Poor Samsora, he was so happy to win that first game too

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Literally this, if the smash community was the SF or tekken community they would've complained about akuma and tokido when he made his evo 2017 run or arslen and kazumi destroying everybody this year.

>You never see Peach, Inkling, Olimar, Mega Man, or any other top tier character mains get THIS defensive over their characters.
i have absolutely seen peach mains get super defensive over their character before

Hell yes you did, Peach and Mega Man mains in particular bitched HARD about their nerfs and once again in most major tournaments the only player who gets great results with Joker is Leo because he's you know a really good player regardless of character but chose to invest a ton of time in this character and is showing the results for the effort he put in.

No Inkling has one a single major. That doesn't mean she's not high tier at least.
Same for Joker. THe fact that it's just one Joker player placing VERY WELL doesn't change the fact that he's at least high tier.

MKLeo even said Ike wasn't broken and would eventually be fine when people learned how to punish him more. Ike is still a good character, but not a top tier like Joker.

I dropped the game a while back because I thought it was way to spammy, I still look at results from time to time. A few common trends with top tiers in Ult is disjoints, trample armor, "High priority attacks" and high damage easy bake combos. Look at the best characters in the game and they have at least 3 of these.
The issue with Lucina in particular is the fact that Ult is spammy as all hell and she has attacks that reach far in this game has no lag .

>that shot of him just sitting there, looking at nothing, while the confetti for Leo buries him

*when Arsene is out and Joker is hit

holy shit you have the comprehension of a 12 year old.

You can still deck out Arsene if you level him and feed good skills into him to basically be a top tier Persona. It takes a long time and isn't efficient but you can still do it

>Leo didn't dominate this bad before Joker came out, Joker's broken!
>here's a tournament that Leo dominated with character X
>w-well character X is broken too, that doesn't count!

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perhaps the bitching and whining you guys did was so loud and obnoxious you didn't notice. patch culture is gay and you faggots need to git gud

People seem to just repeat history:
>"FUCK KEN AND FUCK MARTH"
>"FUCK ZERO AND FUCK DIDDY KONG!"
>"I MEAN FUCK ZERO AND FUCK SHEIK"
>"FUCK MKLEO AND FUCK JOKER"

Fucking stop. A player got good with a character. Get over it.

People in this thread defending Joker don't remember Smash 4 Rosalina and Luma. She was agreed to be a top tier by every pro across the board and only had a handful of dedicated players, and only one that got any tournament results.

Olimar players are cucks. People who play Pinkmin are cucks. You're not a cuck, are you, user?

All that's left for Leo to become the ZeRo of Ultimate is for Joker to get nerfed and Leo to keep winning anyway.

That wasn't me fag. I maintain my position that Leo wouldn't be winning like this if not for Joker.
We'll watch if he switches over to Chrom.

>"Joker is busted!!!!!!"
>Okay then why aren't there any other Joker players in Top 32
>"Oh that means you think Joker is bad then? Do you think Peach/Fox/Wolf is bad too?"
All of them are good, none of them are broken.

Smashers are the only "people" who ask for nerfs more than buffs. Sad.

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You forgot the one about hbox

you can actually turn him into a pretty mean late game Persona if you keep him and build him up right, but yeah most players won't bother to do it
although I did on a Hard mode run forever ago because I always thought he looked cool

Not the weakest but pretty low. You can actually take him a lot farther than Orpheus and Izanagi compared to the other modern starter Persona in the other games. Especially if you can refuse him or use skill cards, which would be his smash version since Arsene doesn't learn Eigaon or Makakarn/Tetrakarn normally.

Will my nigga Lucas ever become top-tier, let alone better than Ness?

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No, she very much is not.

I didn't say Joker was broken. Bayonetta is broken. Joker is top tier.

only characters from localized games get to be top tier, sorry

You did, though.

Oh yes, the ultimate placebo back then, "Dabuz is overpowered", "please ban Rosalina", "Rosalina makes the game grind to a standstill", and then Zero beats him. Again. Like always. Dabuz Rosa was never a threat.

Where is the new CANON OFFICIAL SSBU RANKINGS?
Has MK (forma de LEOOOOOOOOO) ascended to SSSSSS?

you forgot
>"FUCK MKLEO AND FUCK IKE"

Reminder that Samsora picked a Bob-omb in the last game and MKLeo literally shot it out of his hands on reaction before he could do anything with it.

It's not Joker, it's MKLeo.

Yes she is. Joker has a stupid comeback mechanic where every 50% of damage you deal to him (if you're lucky) you turn him into far and away the best character in the game so your best choice is to not engage. Lucina has nothing like that.

1. No one has ever said that since Bayonetta and Cloud last game
2. MKLeo is just good, he is top of the charts by far and has proven that with any character.

Seriously that shit is so funny in hindsight.
Ike never got nerfed yet almost nobody has complained about him since Leo dropped him.

Rosalina pretty much invalidated certain characters like Ness or Mega Man. She was just as toxic as Joker is now, except Joker boxes out all slow characters and Rosalina only boxed out projectile-reliant characters.

She was still a top tier in 4, even after several batches of nerfs. The nerfs just made it more fun to play against her, which is what would/should happen to Joker.

Yeah, instead she has ridiculous speed, strong frame data, quick attacks with little end lag, and high disjoint.
Not to mention she has basically no visual flair.
But hey, cry about Joker more because you're bad.

Comebacks are hype, you only hate them because its leo and you want him to lose.

Leo just isn't as good without Joker bro.

WARIO HAS THE ONLY BALANCED COMEBACK MECHANIC IN THE FORM OF WAFT AND ACTUALLY MAKES THE GAME FUN TO WATCH AT TIMES PROVE ME WRONG PHANTOM DICKS

>a character with gimps, combos, and a stupid comeback mechanic in the shape of a stand
>less entertaining to watch than literally fundamentals the character

you're deluded.

Probably because all the wannabe-Leos in online dropped him, too. Ike is actually obnoxious to deal with because he's another Nairplane character like Palutena. He's not exactly top tier, but he's good and easy to play, leading to him being the bane of online players' existence.

Except everyone agrees that swords are too good in ultimate. They all should be reworked to be slower to compensate for the disjoints and the ones with shit recoveries should be buffed in the relevant area.

>Two Mexicans in Top 8

Mexico is clearly sending their best

Doesnt joker have all this plus projectiles

If she's that good why isn't Leo playing her anymore though?
Fundamentals are fun, play more fighting games.

Can't it just be that Leo found a character he really clicked with in Joker? Have none of you guys ever had that happen with you in any other fighting game?

And what's left for them?

and samsora isn't as good without peach or marss without zss. what is your fucking point?

The Arsene meter should be nerfed a bit.

They are fun, and leo has better fundamentals then everyone. So how is lucina more hype then joker? He's playing him the exact same way has he did with lucina

I'm just glad Joker is top tier and you're here bitching about nerfs. Keep seething.

Keep all that, add projectiles and Arsene and you have Joker.

>Joker is top tier
>NO HE ISN'T
>Why?
>Because MKLeo is the only one in top 8
>But what about him being absurdly fast for his weight, having great damage output, insane frame-data, having Ganondorf-tier kill power on said low-frame moves, having one of the best recoveries in the game, and also being mid-weight so he doesn't even die early?
>Yeah, but only MKLeo is the only one who plays him in the top 8

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Joker doesn't have near the disjoint Lucina and basically every other sword does.

>expecting proper balancing in a party game
nintendies crack me up every time

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nobody disputes Joker is a top tier, it's people thinking he's some kind of S+ Broken tier

I want to have a pic or gif of that.

Because he has no kill power without Arsene and if people would learn to respect, but not fear, Arsene he isn't hard to beat.
And nobody said he isn't good, but he is FAR from broken which is the topic.

>having great damage output, insane frame-data

Only with Arsene. Joker is Sheik tier without him. Samsora and Tweek almost 3-0'd Leo but they choked hard. Why can't you see that?

he's top tier, the thing we are arguing is that Leo gets carried by Joker, which obviously isn't the case.

Is Leo DOWNLOADING every single one of his preys? Just look at Samsora's face. I believe he has been dowloaded at this point.

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He is top tier, every fucking fighting game in existence has top tiers. You faggots just want everything nerfed and that actively makes the game worse.

Being a top tier character doesn't warrant nerfs and doesn't warrant diminishing a player's skill because they use the character

Learn the difference you braindead nintendie

>t. someone that mains Genjuro in SamSho

Yeah, sure but I'd really like it if the sword users didn't have fast, hard hitting disjoints and Palutena had to use something other than nair.

Joker isn't broken, but he could certainly use nerfs.

In the same vein that PT was never broken, but literally no one argued that shit like Ivysaurs rediculous hitboxes didn't deserve a nerf.

Characters can need nerfs without being "free win" machines.

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I laugh at everyone who wants Genjuro nerfed too.

Just buff Nakoruru, Shiki and Yashamaru and the game is perfect

>I did the EVO comeback to win SSC! I made a huge comeback and then reset the bracket and won! Im so hapoy even tho a lot of people hate me and are talking trash, im still happy with my win :) i just have to say joker is honest @echofoxgg #FOXWIN

I'm really starting to dislike the guy, but not as much as the pros supporting him, why is the smash community made up of so many try-hards when it to trying to appear nice on twitter?
Wasnt around competitive smash in 2014-2015, is MKLeo reaching zero levels of hate yet?

>nerfing Peach and Pokémon Trainer is fine
>don't touch Joker though he's totally fair as is
Alright Yea Forums.

literally who said he wasn't top tier?
what, so top tiers automatically deserved to be nerfed so you can feel like you are god at the game or something?

There was nothing good about those nerfs either but at least Peach got away with a slap on the wrist

he didn't say anything wrong though.

Did they gut Ivy's oversized hitboxes? I'm all for that.

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Not yet, but it is building up. Leo at least looks mortal in this God run by having to come from losers constantly and even lost a recent tournament. ZeRo hardly ever lost.

Because Zero set himself up as a villian when he first game into the public eye by running away and stalling a match to win the Nintendo World Championship thing Nintendo did for E3 that one year.

He's obviously a great player but is currently riding his character pick to victory. You only even need to watch the matches to see this play out, he's taking great advantage of all the ways his character edges out his competition. Obviously the mark of solid play, but also the mark of someone who can't keep this going if things get nerfed. It happened to him with Diddy and I kinda hope it happens to him again with Joker. Funny enough, only a few changes really need to take place to bring Joker more in-line with the other top tiers, but with the kinds of patches we've been seeing, it's doubtful we'll see them, and this is a case where they can't just buff other characters to where he is. Some things, like his down air, can't even really be nerfed. The character is just a mistake on quite a few levels.

i saw him stall with a meta knight in brawl and ended up losing that game. it was funny. when i saw the video i thought he was some fat asian loser that focuses on exploits in the game to win. lol

you actually took his bait lmao

Trainers charizard buff uniroincally made them better though. Look how many trainers were in top 48 at Smash con

39% without buffs. Still good as fuck but at least it does pretty much nothing to shields.

i dont give a shit about arsene, the only thing i hate about joker is how a lot of his moves like fsmash are almost impossible to punish

And everyone who's come close to beating Leo has done so by playing carefully while Arsene is out
But they always go full fucking retard and unga bunga at him while he has Arsene at some point and get fucking destroyed as a result, see the last tournament. Fucking Zackray is a hack who was carried to fame by bayo and he managed to almost beat Leo when he was respecting Arsene then got curbstomped the moment he stopped.
Nobody thinks swords are broken except bad players. Almost none of the players consistently top 8ing majors use sword characters exclusively, Leo was the only one and he abandoned them when Joker came out and nobody else gets real results with them. They're pub stompers because Smash players are generally fucking garbage at their own game. See: all the morons who can't beat Leo because they're too stupid to utilize directional airdodging and edgeguarding properly.

I really don't have a problem with top tier characters existing, but they are always going to exist and you are retarded to think otherwise, but Genjuro is literally the worst and most boring kind of top tier.

He wins games by just being straight up better versions of other characters.

ITT: People who don’t know what they are talking about in a subject discuss the subject as if they are experts of the subject

People hate Kazumi though

I don't know, I still think Haohmaru and jubei do things better than Genjuro or at least have one part of their character that is better than Genjuro. Haohmaru being scary without a sword thanks to dash attack jab and Jubei's dash pokes are more reliable than Genjuro.

The problem with nerfing Genjuro is that it's an Akuma situation. You play this character because he'd the "better" shoto and if stops being that, he sucks

Yea scrubs do

He's nothing to pichu.

Joker isn't overpowered, and MKLeo isn't, either.
It's both of them together that become overpowered.
Leo got good results before Joker, but ever since he switched he has been getting insane results. This is because Joker is a top-tier that seems tailored specifically for Leo's playstyle.
Hell, not even just his playstyle, but even his frame of mind. Leo is by far the most composed of any Top Player, he doesn't let deficits get to him, and plays consistently even when 2 stocks down. The longer a set goes on, the longer Leo has to adapt to and brutally punish the opposition (a great example of this is how many times he called out Tweek's Pokemon Switches at Evo from Game 3 onwards). Leo's own mental "comeback mechanic" is perfectly complimented by Arsene being a "comeback mechanic" for Joker as a character.
So sure, Leo wouldn't be getting the same results without Joker, but the same goes for Samsora without Peach, or Cosmos without Inkling, or any Top Player without their main.
In conclusion: Hoes Mad.

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>drags you down into upsmash/downsmash at 90%

Fox was nerfed, that's what PAL is.

>a smash attack killing at 90 is overpowered
How new are you to this series?

youtu.be/DQsivruSEEE

Just like Ike carried him to victory too huh?

>complaining about Joker when Hero is out
kek

Leo plays like he came straight out of a fucking battle shounen manga. Gets brought to the brink of a complete loss by super tough opponents, only to adapt and promptly reverse it on them. Plus the nerves of fucking steel.

Zero played a campy stalling game in Brawl which people hated him for, then he ruined the Tr4sh invitational by just running away for the entirety of the finals to stall out the clock which people were upset about because there was no actual prize money for that, it was purely for exhibition. People don't hate MKLeo as much aside from shitters who are butthurt about Joker "stealing a slot" and want an excuse to call him OP even though Leo is the only one getting results with him