Where do you fall Yea Forums?

Where do you fall Yea Forums?

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Other urls found in this thread:

youtu.be/aC6WhBb_8oE
etgmz14.g1.xrea.com/143.html
warosu.org/vr/thread/1434726
pastebin.com/B6NrUiVt
vndb.org/v3030#main
youtube.com/watch?v=uIUt_y351oU
youtube.com/watch?v=65JCXIaeqEM
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

>New Vegas
>Hardcore
Give me a break
Fallout 1 and 2 are much more hardcore than that baby shit

Too easy, I used to be really into old DOS games like Master of Magic so I'm practically Shuma Gorath tier

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why is god hand on there twice

hardcore I guess

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>bioshock infinite at the bottom of "jaded outcast"
>eve in the bottom tier

This entire image is so retarded

>Nintendo casual
>Shmups gamer
>God hand hardcore
What fucking retard made this

>Dark Souls is Casual Scum while Bioshock Infinite is jaded outcast

Idk it doesnt make any sense is this b8 oh i guess it is right

literally all of those games belong in casual scum tier

What a fucking shitty list this is.

i cringed hard with this list.

Of the hundreds of these I have seen across this decade this one is the worst ironically or otherwise

i made one of these in 2016

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I caught OP on video

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>fallout 3: level 1
>fallout 3: the new vegas expansion pack: level 5

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>all the newfags who have never seen this post before

cute thread premise to make newfags look new

>Total War
>hardcore
That's cringe.

is this shitty bait?

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>SFII
>Deepest tier
how will casual-whitoids ever recover from knowing that all childs in Maroc were queueing at the arcade ?

Did a redditor make this shit? How is New Vegas, SotC, fucking roller coaster tycoon hardcore? And how is casual shit like EVE and Simulation games at the bottom? It boggles my mind how retarded this list is.

>i play games from every where

Jaded outcast unless you count sim racers as simulation games. Also there aren't any rhythm games on there.

gods can be sexy
idk what your on about

You mean this one?

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If youre not a fucking zoomer you have played most of these either way.

None, I've never played any of the games in that image. Where do text adventures fall? Casual scum? I played a lot of those. Also completed Eastern Mind but since that's one of the most famous "weird" games out there (right along with the insanely famous LSD but a little less popular) it's probably in level 2 or 3 at most.

hopefully on the concrete when i jump

jaded outcast on this one too

kissless virgin wizard

Obvious joke

>Statues
w-what's wrong with that haha though really, you'd think petrification and statues would be around the same thing

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Stupid fucking nigger, I had SF 2 on SNES in the 4th grade.

the weird guy

I always wondered what that thing at the bottom right is.

enjoy playing against bots all alone whitoid

Zalgo I guess, I like simulation games and Quake 3/SF2 though I don't play either very well. When are we gonna get an updated version of this chart, I've been seeing this same one for years.

>new vegas
>hardcore
someone post the reddit image

>floor tiles

heh classic

a drawing of a "ningen", which is an internet urban legend about some kind of giant white humanoid that lives in polar seas

>>Nintendo casual
That's correct though. They're made for literal children.

>shmups
>not in anything below "that weird guy"
ya, because ikaruga is such an accessible game for everyone

Is this the Reddit version of the list? How absolutely disgusting.

These graphs are always so fucked. Street Fighter 2 is in the very bottom tier. Even though it's the best selling fighting game of all time.

>14/??? not with Saint

okay then

I can live with being weird

>Bullet hell in "That weird guy"
>Fucking babby's first New Vegas in "Hardcore"
>Quake 3, a fucking popular game in the bottom
Come on. You gotta be baiting

>Serial killer wikipedia articles

Fuck, that brought back bad memories.

where's the rape simulators?

>Eastern Mind
>daemon tier
I guess I'm a Daemon then, but damn it didn't seem that obscure.

>fall mainly in weird
>futa/dickgirls drop me into creep levels

There's a lot in fallen that interests me but what's the story behind contemplating dog knees

someone post the cat one, you know the one

I’ve played literally all of these games and like most of them...

I've tried repeatedly to get Osamu Sato games from Japan but there seems to be some silly law keeping them from leaving the country or something near as I can tell.

Terraria is most definitely not casual scum tier.

if by god you mean any god, fictional or not, I have wanked to arceus from pokemon

Most of these have millions of fans and are not obscure at all.

neat

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what the fuck is mexican sugar dancing?
>looks it up

sigh..

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irredeemable here

Pioneer, thanks to 3dvce and biogenesis, which I wouldn't really call games.

>new vegas
>god hand
>hardcore

What kind of zoom zoom made this image?

The deepest of depths.

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I just played it off a DOSbox an user gave me with it preinstalled.

Same, don't know if should be ashamed or not.

well, I think it's one of the less fucked up ones

Solid degenerate here

god I always want to research that weird shit but they are hard to google

>Ascended
Noice

fallen here

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user, the only ones lower are Mexican sugar dancing and memes, it's not one of the less fucked up ones.

Lowest I fall is weird, although some fetishes are placed oddly so I dont think it matters too much.
Same. for the life of me I cant find anything on 14/???.

youtu.be/aC6WhBb_8oE

>sim games
Does Arma 3 count?

etgmz14.g1.xrea.com/143.html

Pure, I'm pretty sure. Basically everything below that is not my thing.
Wow, I thought I was obscure with .hack but I've literally never heard of anything "The Demon" and below. There is much to learn I see.

14/? and 14/?? were the only ones released when that chart was made. 14/??? only released earlier this year

Based

I like you.

"Weird guy" and Gamer are the same thing, Gamer just has slightly more recent stuff.
Oldfag is the real "Weird guy" category and even then Quake and Fallout 1/2 aren't that weird.

The only stuff I like above normalfag is Softcore femdom, monstergirls, and anthro

cringe
more so than the unironic charts

demon god of shadow tier shitter spotted

CLASSIC GAME looked genuinely interesting and unsettling from what I've been able to look up

>t.babyman

OP is a fag

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replace half life 2 with half life 1

>play that one asm game on steam
>suddenly on second to last tier
these charts are stupid

What tier is 5+ years of my life browsing Space Engine for several hours a day

i actually caught this fetish it really sucks because everyone thinks its a meme

Fucking how

What kind of tiles are you attracted to user?

the curves on the tiles and between them really remind me of vaginas and i just imagine a perfectly sculpted woman with heated tiles instead of skin
idk i guess i laid on heated tiles a lot as a kid and would rub my cock on them because they were warm and i didnt know what i was doing

show us your tile folder or get the fuck out, you don't shit talk about based tileanon here

>total war
>hardcore
I like it but cmon

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>a perfectly sculpted woman with heated tiles instead of skin
Whatever gets you off I guess

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my favorite is blue glossy tiles, heated and curved edges, white grout inbetween

Its spelled "colossus".

gregor i guess Cdda isnt that obscure if you like rogulikes

>statues
>fallen
What do you think all those renaissance dudes were making naked statues for? That shit is pure-tier.

That's the joke

Scrimmy Bingus is placed too low.
It belongs to Gregor tier, not Elder

I like Quake 3, and I love RCT2. Guess that makes me level 4-5?
And?

damn why would anyone make this?

to feel superior because they've played games that other people haven't

I'm an ST player so I guess street fighter 2 and thus beyond hardcore

>Polish System Shock clones for DOS
>Taiwanese Doom clones for DOS
>Czech third Splinter Cell clones
>Cuban propaganda shooters
>Restoring lost content from the Half-Life 2 Beta
>mfw know a slav website which hosts torrents for almost every FPS ever made and regularly download whichever looks obscure and foreign enough
Movies:
>Livestreams of Tunisian anime
>Cambodian horror movies
>Bola De Drac Z
>A hand full of VHS rips of some extremely obscure Japanese Toku movies from the 90's
>Archives of Cantonese television programs from the 1980's
Which ones do you want to know more about?

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Where's Guilty Gear and MUGEN?

Cambodian horror movies?

>zombies in irredeemable tier
Apparently most men are irredeemable

>door knobs in fallen tier
Apparently all women are fallen

Shut up, slut

Doom clones and cuban shooters

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Joke's on you, my autistic love for futuristic racing isn't even covered by the chart.

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>shills do it for free
I don't think that's a conspiracy. We have them moderating this board right now

Nutendo =/= Nintendo

>Facebook games being in causal scum and not hardcore

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>Depressed farmer
>autistic screeching monkey homebrew
as always

Fallen I guess
Got me on the floor tiles

get that faggot shit outta here

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>Dwarf fortress
>Europa
>Total war
>Hardcore

I play all three of these regularly and im married with a pension and a mortgage

Nice bait picture OP

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Where do I fall if I've beaten Kotor and Kotor 2 with every class combination on both alignments, and once for each gender?

Slav website please.

>Dorf
>hardcore

Also, where is EYE? You double Jians.

>new vegas
>more hardcore than FO1/2
get this garbage off my screen

Thought I was firmly in pure and normalfag until I saw impregnation and albinos.

What the fuck is this shit?

t. exposed normie

I can't figure out how to look it up at all, google is no use

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give me that slav website

Those are all casual scum for me it’s bibles animal races

Worlds.com and many other of these VRML games aren't really
It's cool though, it's like the darknet but in 3d and without druggies or jews.

>taiwanese doom clones
I've played many old taiwanese and korean singleplayer games as well, most of them are really mediocre tho.
>cuban propaganda shooters
>tunisian anime
Now you're shitting me

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DON'T EVEN FUCKING MENTION GOLF RUMORS FORGET THIS THREAD

*aren't really games

Change the color for the bottom row. It's impossible to read.

t.schizophrenic who can't even use the word normalfag.

Soon as I have the money I'm going to investigate pelzer. I live in SC.

Keep crying, small brain.

I feel like this chart is a wee bit bias but hardcore

>tfw played shittones of TW
>tfw played the hell out of Red Alert 2 as a kid
I AM NOW HARDCORE

>As you go down the list all that happens is things just get more obscure.
>If I look up and know about this fucking obscure as fuck thing I am fucking superior.

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>still playing EVE
rock fucking bottom it is

>Waffle Boy's Mountain Adventure
I fucking miss Postopia

Same. How am I supposed to find something called "classic game"?

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>protodites

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What even

>The Daemon
>bunch of crap I've never heard of
Boy this is pretty obscu--
>also the entire PC-88 library
ok

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That weird guy is where my heart lies, even if I've played most everything below it.

>unreleased shovelware
I have a collection of gba roms that I found on a random flashdrive a few years ago, none of which are actual released games, but instead a bunch of weird shit. Most of them are either test animations or multi-language book readers (none of them seem to work), but there are some games (most of them are just ripoffs of other games.
There's also porn screenshots

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>Quake III and EVE under dorfs

Weak bait.

>dwarf fortress
>hard
Lol

>garage

I remember that one thread from /vr/ where some finally found a working copy of "garage" and made iso out of it. You won't believe how many anons creamed their pants over it, as they thought the game is lost forever.

Literally beyond the bottom level, this is plebshit

"elder" thanks to unreleased, dropped in making Jap doujin ryona games.

r8

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It's a game with pretty cool aesthetics but most of it amounts to just farming fish. Or rather crustaceans.
I have the thread archive of the user who bought the game.

hipster faggot

None of those games belong in that bottom tier except maybe EVE.
Bottom tier should always be kept for meme games and the really fucking obscure autistic stuff like aurora4x

Unironically The Elder

Thought I was deep degenerate but saw unbirthing in irredeemable so I am irredeemable

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>tfw live burial

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What fucking loser made this shit?

The absolute state of zoomers...

NoctisV never ever

>>Bola De Drac Z
sounds like romanian dragonball
what's special about it?

Don't forget T I L E P A T E R N S

It's in there.

fuck

>Writing a post refuting this
>Realised halfway through it's a bait image

link it faggot

warosu.org/vr/thread/1434726

a list of everything i've ever played in red, green is currently playing

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>government only simulators is at the bottom
>tfw crashed a virtual million dollar aircraft on a multimillion dollar piece of training equipment
>some faggot thinks Im some kind of alien nigger
guess I’m better than the rest of you faggots now

Meant for

What the fuck kind of zoomer baby made this shit?

>not posting the redux version

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>Zeddas 3
Ah, the best time I've had on /vr/
That one collector BakuDD from retrowin who got his shit leaked
fuck retrowin anyway

Morrowind, Stalker, Fighting Games. Definitely the weird guy

>Casual Scum - All Nintendo
>Bayonetta is level 3, Metroid Prime is level 4
What did he mean by this?

>find mega link to a collection of old forgotten early 90s PC games on /vg/
>fuck yes this is my jam
>download entire thing
>literally all of them are japanese
what the FUCK
ive really gotta learn moonrunes

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>polybius
god I hate this meme
almost completely invalidates the entire pic for me, honestly

>New Vegas
>Hardcore
I don't even care if it's bait

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Sup fellow Gregors

A zoomer from reddit desperately trying to fit in.

hello fellow gregor, i gained my place through h-games and a text game, how about you?

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The Void and Marathon, a few h games here and there

>Search "pancreas denial" from the bottom section in google
>First thing is wikipedias list of conspiracy theories, but cant find pancreas denial on the page
>Also some redditor saying that "pancreas denial" can only be discussed on the deep web
>Everything else is about pancreatic cancer
Excuse me what the fuck is this

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very cool, what is the void like? it seems interesting.
i have pathologic 1 though sadly i've yet to play it, still got a backlog to go through

I played The Void a bit, which I suppose is a technical qualification. Very comfortably in OldFag territory at the very least thanks to xcom classic, dorf fort and grand strategies.

pastebin.com/B6NrUiVt

Is it even worth returning to?
I played it at least 5 years ago, liked the market jewing but quickly burned out.

>fnaf below flash games
seriously is there a list on Yea Forums that isn't at least 50% retarded

Oldfag here love me a good train simulator.
Can't remember the same but the music was comfy as hell.

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Based

Irredeemable
Gregor, Daemon if one game is enough to move you up a tier but I've not even heard of most of the shit there.

hi guys 2015 oldfag here to post twitter memes

This is the most hardcore game known to man.

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i play gunz the duel. where do i fit

What's eskimo kissing and/or alaskan snow dragon?

Holy fuck, thank you for sharing this

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What tier am I Yea Forums? These are bookmarks that I use as a fetish list (some of them are just for organization and not really a fetish).

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>Roller coaster tycoon
Turns I'm actually the hardest of the hardcore

Qliphoth-tier

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Irredeemable

For me, it's Normal Tier

Also I have a virus fetish, although I don't really indulge in it that much.

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>Straight

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Do you mean a computer virus fetish?
Or like bug catching?

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Look at the picture user.
I think bugchasing is hot but I would never engage in that kind of stuff.

>spoiler
HOW? How can ANYONE find that shit arousing??

>Quake 3
>Level 5

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Do you download malware intentionally then jack off to it?

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Yeah, I thought I quit doing that years ago but it came back with a vengeance.

Nigga jacks off to malware and that's your question?

this chart is dogshit

What do expect from bait. Quality?

>2016
>flash games
maybe while at school, most casuals don't touch flash games anymore because fortnite is free.

what do you find arousing about this? there isn't even a human really involved.

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A bit from each idk

whenever I see one of those charts I think of pic related.
also that bottom tier is wack. quake, street fighter 2 and TGM3 are nowhere near "elderich weird", and can be easily picked up and played.

I feel these are much better, with the Daemon Tier being stuff I've literally never heard of.

Irredeemable and above. ero-guro is a hell of a drug.

Why do I find this hot?

Is your favorite porno windows destruction?

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>fetish of viruses infecting computers
care to explain how this came to be?

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What the fuck does that even mean? “All Nintendo game” implies every Nintendo game in history, from the 80s to this year. And if you’re trying to say that Prime is “Nutendo”, it came out in 2002, making it older than most Yea Forums. Hell, it’s just plain older than Yea Forums

>bullet held games not in the bottom territory
the touhou crowd never leave their basement dungeons and pee in bottles

OP, Eat Shit And Die. Where's level 0?

Wait. This rpg maker game looks very similar to the rpg maker game Neftelia, same sprite and everything. But its not called Neftelia?

I don't really know, I guess it was because when I was 13/14 years old and I'd look up bestiality and I'd end up getting a virus.

Then it turned into a fetish about viruses, or maybe it's something about domination and bondage, I'm not too sure.

Pure for IRL sex and Creep for porn.

this is the most baby version of this image, where is the good one

How do you feel about Bonzi Buddy?

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One of the most unique, beautiful and thought-provoking games I’ve ever played, and also seriously hard because the mechanics of the game plus color RNG absolutely hate you. I still haven’t won it, I just do a little better each time.

so is it like specific types of viruses? do they each fill like a different niche of fetishes or something?

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>casual scum
>mmo's and dark souls on par with facebook games

>that weird guy
>Half life 2

>god hand mentioned on two different levels

What a shitty bait

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>Q
>Transcended
MAGA fellow plan truster

>Already into beast at 13
Goddamn

Oh look, its the retarded "ironic weeb" tier contradictory who hates fun. The problem with your list, is that iceberg lists are supposed to be based on obscurity, so why you are mocking something for its obvious purpose?

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I prefer anything that is visually doing something rather than just making my computer run slower through bitcoin mining
It was probably 14 or 15, when I was 13 I was still discovering things like fat, furry, scat, etc. I probably should of realize something was wrong when I saw shitting dick nipples and 2girls1cup and wasn't disgusted.

>Play ETS2

Damn it's nice down here in ryleth

I mean, I've read and enjoyed some fucked up Visual Novels where the dude skullfucks the chicks eyehole and neck stump. Was kind of weird at first but then it became kind of hot. And reading serial killers wikipedia pages is always fun.
But I'm think I'm a vanilla faggot that is too much into step-father/daughter anal rp porn.
What tier am I in?

What defines Lost Media? I saw the Passion of Joan of Arc, that was considered lost for decades until it was found again

>Bioshock Inf. Below lvl.2
>Dark Souls being more than one level away from Demon's Souls.
>Neo XCOM in the same level as classic XCOM.
MMO's being listed twice.

What game was that

I don't remember the name user, it was in japanese and shit. The plot was kind of that the chick couldn't die or something, so the dude torture fucks her, he rips of her limbs and fucks them, it was kind of weird, pretty bloody too.

Lmao stay fucking mad

I find the placement of some anime here to be quite questionable.

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>Bullet Hells, Deus Ex, and Morrowind above modern XCOM and Diablo
>New Vegas below Fallout 1/2
>Bioshock Infinite on the same level as the original XCOM
>Total War and Roller Coaster Tycoon that low
>Godhand is on this chart twice
This entire fucking image, Jesus Christ.

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Sounds like what happened to Ciel in Tsukihime. Don’t forget, the best way to suppress Roa in her ass is without lube

>around 13 and already into beast
mah nigga

Found one, it wasn't exactly this one that I was thinking of, but I did play this one too, name is Dustmania Grotesque ~Kaitai Sounyuu Shinsho~
vndb.org/v3030#main
Fair warning if you press the "show 18+ images" near the bottom, you'll see some potentially fucked up shit.

Usually it's just stuff that was known to exist at one point but no known copies of the data exist anymore. Things that maybe completed development but never shipped like Star Fox 2, or games that were almost completed and then the company shut down or something. Also games / services that only existed online and have since shut down and no source code or original files exist anymore. Stuff that is considered lost media is still considered lost media usually even after it has been potentially found and archived online.

I never got around to reading Tsukihime, when I was done with Fate and was about to start the Tsukihime series they announced the Remake/Remaster with better visuals, so I kind of decided to wait instead.
I'm still waiting I guess.

Sounds like a day in the life of mai chan but maybe im wrong

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Actually, now that I'm reading the synopsis, this is the plot I was thinking of, what I'm misplacing is the art style and scenes, those are from another game I think, the one I'm thinking of wasn't translated when I read it.

That's the manga right? I think I started reading that one but never finished.

Do you just have an archive of malware like most people have porn? Can we see?

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>Bayonetta
Platinum, not Nintendo.
>Metroid Prime
Retro, not Nintendo.

I remember that one. It’s awwwwwwriiiight

Somehow managed to make it to ascended.

Only ever hit Gregor on this one. I still want to see some Parallel Timeline games, though.

You son of a bitch

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>it has a live action film
why...

I used to but I stopped doing that because I would keep on going straight in and installing a bunch of stuff.

Imagine you couldn't use your computer for like 30-40 minutes after you fapped, that'd get pretty obnoxious when you're fapping multiple times per day. So to prevent myself from constantly needing to clean my computer, I only used malwaredomainlist and that was only on certain occasions.

I remember a Murder Dog game that Vinesauce played a while ago, dunno if it's "NES". It was a courtroom game where you controlled the defendant (dog).

>Pre-1960's anime down at the very bottom

You can find stuff like the momotaro WWII propaganda films on youtube, along with some older stuff.

I play American Trucking Sim to crush audio books
ascended, no joke
Elder, played game maker levels on my buddy's PS1 he made
Pfffffpfpfffffffffftttttfff âoodapsd, played that slender 8 pages while drunk off my ass
Level X, checked out worlds.com
Northwoods 2 is actively occuring

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Is this chart made by the schizo obsessed with shitposting about CS?

I am Gregor, because I like to play LSD in my spare time. I probably have over 1000 hours in that game at this point.

Gregor

ah a man of culture i see.

>semper games
Never understood what that meant

wrong, it is an actual but whit a small edit picture of a giant squid.

4 play a metric shitton of hoi4 and total war and tf2 each having a least 1k hours

Suggestion: use this format for individual genres or game series. Example: Monster Raising RPG
Lvl 1 - Pokemon
2 - Digimon or DQ Monsters or whatever
3 - Semi popular indie game (I cant think of any off the top of my head)
And so on and so forth. The problem with multiple genres is someone who doesnt regularly consume a certain genre will put more mainstream games in it lower in obsecurity (since most things in said genre are obscure to the image maker) if that makes sense.

i guess the furthest i go down is tier 5, but only for angels egg and detective conan. But Detective Conan seems like it should be higher up.

Are any of the games at the very bottom enjoyable at all?

I feel like people just go out of their way like this to claim that they are more cultured or superior, when they are pretty much playing the vidya equivalent of Z movies.

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I feel like I don't deserve the power waffle boy has given me since I havent heard of anything else in elder or ??? tier except the 14/?(??) shit which I havent even played.
Just to make sure I remember the right thing, WBMA was a platformer but it also had weird 4 wheeler sections with a fuel limit.
It was on the same site as a dinosaur game I remember being dope

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Litterally all of thes charts are either a decade + out of date or are ordered by Yea Forums's perception of popularity then anything in reality

Halo is always the big error in these it's universally in the top 1-2 spots even though it's niche as fuck these days

Yea Forums has a bunch of hidden vorefags and gtsfags

Literally no game there is more underground than "that guy"-tier

Most of those games don't exist (they're either jokes or creepypastas), others are very simplistic, albeit kinda creepy, walking sims found deep in the bowels of Japanese neocities and whatnot. The stuff beginner programmers used to make for practice back in the day.

>street fighter II at the bottom
>no other street fighter game to be found
ass list

A few of them are also literally trojans.

Not really. Past Gregor level you go from "Obscure games that are actually pretty good" to "Obscure games that are obscure for a reason". Some of them are worth a play for how baffling and weird they are, like worlds.com, and some are interesting as a historical footnote, like the dead MUDs (Multi-User Dungeon). But shit like && (Pronounced Twicefold Ampersand, not kidding) is just pretentious bullshit made possible with RPGmaker. There's no connecting logic to any of the game, it's just nonsense for it's own sake. Here's a video of it if you're curious.

youtube.com/watch?v=uIUt_y351oU

Everywhere except the last one. Who came up with this garbage chart?

What a fucking waste of time of a list. You can't even begin to point out how retarded it is.

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I still play original Quake from time to time. I consider it the only Quake game. Fuck those entries with edgy versions of the Borg from Star asslicking Trek.

I suppose a bit of the deepest portion. Also, I play Warcraft 2 once in a while.

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Fallen.
I'm not sure if "elusive cock goblin" means pic related, midget whores, or youtube.com/watch?v=65JCXIaeqEM
Either way I'm still all in.

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Self hating failed normagroid

I actually find Z movie tier games fun. They’re always interesting to play to say the least.

>that video

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>Paradox games
>Hardcore
Fuck outta here.

I never understood why the fuck Shadow of the Colossus was that low

>Diablo, Metroid Prime, Bioshock Infinite
>more "hardcore" than bullet hell games, Morrowind and Deus Ex
This chart is all sorts of retarded.

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>The fucking ass thumping

Holy fuck I'm dying

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yikes

Aurora isn't listed because it's too dense to be moved from the ocean floor.

they're not made exclusively for children no, also good luck actually completing any mario game

if you care about nullsec then no it's horrible right now
otherwise yes

>Fall into 2 category's
Heh. Guess you can call me a Hardcore Gamer.

Casual chad. The lower you are the more fucked you are, I'll gladly stay a normal person.

Everywhere.

I still play flash games sometimes they're fun

EASTERN MIND is an actual fun and good game. People should play it, it's kinda weird but I liked and it's pretty short