Happy birthday to the still best immersive sim

Happy birthday to the still best immersive sim

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>best immersive sim

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Game is too good. One of my favorites.

Happy birthday indeed

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Happy birthday, SS1, Deus Ex, and Prey are better

Just walking around the corridors of the station, listening to the vending machine’s pitch is kino. I want to go back to the Von Braun. Why are there no comprarable space sim games?

LOOK ATCHU, FOO'!
NIGGA LOOKIN LIKE SOME PORK, RUNNIN' IN MY HOUSE ALL SWEATIN' AN' SHIT
OINK OINK WHITEBOI

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LOOK ATCHU CRACKER

Is SS1 really better than 2? I played through 2 like 3 times and it's one of my favorite games but for some reason I never bothered with 1, I think because it was either hard to run on my computer or maybe I got turned off by the graphics.

im half way through the game but ive been putting it off for two days im afraid i forgot everything and spoiled the experience for myself ._.

It's a different type of game from 2. Slightly different elements, but slightly more raw and immersive than 2. The newest version of SS1 fixed many of the issues people had (and bringing in some new ones) and it introduced modern WASD by default. Playing SS1 now will feel more or less like System Shock 2.

Reminder that System Shock 1 has a functional level editor now.

no it sucks the controls were designed the N64 controller guy

>System Shock 1
>not System Shock 2

You are my man.

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Fuck this game, easily the worst Shock shit I've ever played.

you need bigger glasses

SS1 is a game more akin to Metroid than System Shock 2. There's no RPG mechanics beyond what kinds of guns you decide to carry. Expect power-up based character progression, more combat, and much less hand-holding.

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It's amazing, much better than 2. It's like Fallout 1 vs Fallout 2. Yes, second one has more content and features, but the first one is unique and focused, with tons of soul.

Why?

SS1 is closer to something like Ultima Underworld in terms of gameplay.
I really like it, I like how involved every little action feels, like manually reloading a gun or setting the power in an energy weapon.

look closer

I am

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FUCK. Fuck you, OP

1 is worth playing
yes the controls take getting used to
if you dont play it youre depriving yourself of a worthwhile game
you dont even have to buy it since the free original version is available online and the mouse-look mod, which was essential to my own personal enjoyment, might still be available for download if you can find it - it might have been taken down to help monetize the game through the remastered version

are you being deliberately retarded

Would you say it's less of an immersive sim than 2, if we define immersive sim mostly by emergent gameplay? I'm very tempted to give it a try because now I'm curious, I always just pictured an older ss2. But at the same time not even sure it would be my jam, metroidvanias are things I have never, ever been able to enjoy for reasons beyond me, I tried all the classics of the genre and never finished any.

No, it's very bright here

but shodan is there? the cover is 1 has a cyborg on it. is it really so bright that all you can see on that image are the words system shock?

You could just try it.
youtube.com/watch?v=up80FfzySFA

You should give it a try. It's an extremely immersive game, but it doesn't have the RPG mechanics (which is a good thing IMHO). Half-Life was super immersive, but didn't have anything deeper than WASD and shoot. Think of it as Half-Life but the ammo is rare, you have power-up modules in your suit, and black mesa is free-roam.
I expected a wolfenstein-tier level design, just labyrinth generic corridors, and that's what maps look like from the overview, but actually the rooms and facilities have different textures, geometry, 3D props (!) and decals, making it feel like they actually have a purpose. Try it, you won't regret it.

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System Shock 1 is the greatest game ever made

It's a shooter that's got more going on than other shooters released at the same time, but it's mechanically not nearly as deep as SS2 or BioShock. That doesn't mean it's bad, it's just the moment-to-moment gameplay is mostly just shooting things with whatever your most effective weapon for that enemy type is.

>try to play ss2 once
>remember struggling because the first cutscene didn't play and I thought the game might be full of them and didn't want to miss content
>finally fix my issue after days of troubleshotting
>play it 1 hour and drop it because something else came out and ended up playing that instead
>it remains on my backlog for literal years despite deus ex and thief being in my favorite games of all time
>decide to finally sit the fuck down and play it a week ago
>literally played the entire game in one 15 hour sitting

I have no idea what the fuck happened, it's been actual years since I played something so engrossing and fun. Time completely flew, there wasn't a single borring moment or section in the game, the pacing was perfect, the level design was perfect, I was actually unable to stop. I quit to close the game like maybe 5 times during my session only to say "fuck it" and boot it back up 2 minutes later and play a few more hours, until I eventually finished it.
Fuck, what a masterpiece, sorry I just had to sperg my experience like a fucking autist

SS1 was better

fpbp but I really like System Shock 2 as well. The thing about the first two Thief games is that emergent scenarios can unfold if you even slightly fuck up the stealth, even if you just put one foot out of line and make too much noise. When that happens you could just re-load an earlier save (the boring option) or you could try to run with it, see if you can outsmart the guards or figure out some new hiding place or whatever. And these stories that unfold are often really fucking intense and entirely your own. Everyone who's played Thief has played the same levels but everyone has a different story about what happened in them.

Ludonarrative Dissonance is a really wanky term to describe what happens when a games story and gameplay clash. With Thief the gameplay and the story mesh like no other. All these emergent stories that happen during gameplay fit into the story the game is telling perfectly. You're still a thief and trying to outwit the guards no matter what happens.

>not nearly as deep as BioShock
BioShock is a Fisher-Price version of SS2 and doesn't really belong in the same conversation. Can we stop talking about it now that Prey has surpassed it as the proper spiritual successor to System Shock?

not him but he's talking about ss1

I know. Saying SS1 isn't as deep as BioShock. Wrong.

good post
What would you say makes ss2 so good as an immersive sim, despite arguably having the least emergent gameplay compared to deus ex or thief?

Whenever I start playing SS2 I always finish it within a few days.

Bioshock has RPG mechanics. SS1 does not. There are not permanent choices to make in SS1 beyond "do I pick up this upgrade or not".

I don't even really like Bioshock that much, but I will concede that it has more going on than SS1 does mechanically.

Not the same user but what about navigation?
I think that's an often overlooked skill required to play SS1.

I hold them in about equal regard. First one does't really have any RPG mechanics though, but it still has a lot going on with puzzles, ammo types, non-linear levels and so on.

Not less, just different. Less abstract mechanics.

>Think of it as Half-Life but the ammo is rare, you have power-up modules in your suit, and black mesa is free-roam.
So basically nothing like Half-Life at all?

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More like you're for some reason only pretending to have played SS1, considering that game has a completely different art style than the cover of 2.

SS2 is weird. It's quite flawed yet the flaws kinda make it unique despite some frustrations. For instance the RPG system is flawed as fuck and there's loads of abilities and branches that are kinda useless or take way too much investment for too little reward. On the other hand it adds to the horror because it's very possible to screw yourself over and it always feels like it's your fault for being stupid enough to waste your points. Plus it adds a ton of replayability.

Really what makes it a good immersive sim is the level design (also the audio but that kinda goes with all Dark engine games) especially in the first half on the Rickenbarker. The ship's levels are designed like actual floors of a ship, there's a functionality to everything. Sure the game will block certain entrances and passageways to make it more 'level-y' and gamey but once you get through the level the whole floor is usually unlocked and would pretty much work as a ship other than the monsters still roaming around. Most levels you get there and there's two paths you can take and you'll eventually circle around back to the elevator no matter which one you choose. It feels like they designed the ship layout first and then came up with the game design later.

One of my favourite moments is in engineering, you have to reprogram the ships course and you have to go back and forth throughout the level in order to find a chip to reprogram the ship's direction with. Once you get to the storage closet with it inside there's a hundred different chips there and you have to look for the one you need. It makes the ship and the world outside the ship seem so much bigger when there's all these options. None of the other chips work of course and the game makes it so you can only carry one chip at a time and the distance between that utility closet and the bridge is so long that no one is bothered to check any of the other chips work (seemingly other than me) but it's still great.

That's absolutely something to consider, SS1 is way less handholdy, but I'm more talking in the moment-to-moment stuff. Bioshock gives the player more options in how they deal with enemies or puzzles than SS1 does, and there's actually freedom in character progression.

Again, not trying to imply SS1 is a worse game or anything. I really do prefer it to Bioshock.

>Bioshock has RPG mechanics.
It also has completely on rails level design, objectives that are handed to you on a silver platter (as if you could ever miss them, with how the whole game is just a linear succession of corridors) and no inventory system of any kind. I don't think the comparison makes any sense since Bioshock is just a corridor FPS.

Redpill me on the upcoming System Shock remake

>None of the other chips work of course and the game makes it so you can only carry one chip at a time
? You can carry as many chips as you want, why wouldn't you? They are placed in your inventory just like any other item.

But there is a required audio log that states exactly which circuit board is needed, 45m/dEx.

Nah, I'm talking about the modules to reprogram the ship. Still, having a fuckload of them and having to search through them makes the game's world feel so much bigger than a standard sci-fi horror game. It feels like a real, functional ship that just happened across alien life. Any other game would only have the one chip in some utility closet, only System Shock 2 shows you hundreds of them as their own unique items which you can interact with and put into your inventory. That's why it's a good immersive sim, it feels like a real place that just happened to turn into an Alien movie.

I know, you still have to look for it, that's the point I'm making. All the other chips give off the impression that this ship could go on a million other different paths and adventures.

>linear succession of corridors

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FORT MUH DICK

The big misunderstanding about the remake is that they were never making a game for die-hard SS1 fans. It's being made for all the SS2/Bioshock players who could never get into SS1, so fans of the original are going to end up disappointed with how much they want to change the game to fit modern expectations.

But just because it only superficially looks like the old game, doesn't necessarily mean it'll be bad. Just a missed opportunity.

Probably gonna bomb.
Nothing very exciting about System Shock 1 with cookie cutter modern FPS gameplay and lens flares out the ass. No doubt will be overshadowed by whatever AAA game it releases next to.

>immersive sim
WEE WOO WEE WOO! RETARD ALERT! RETARD ALERT!

It's a real shame because underneath the garish sprite graphics and clunky controls there's an amazing game under there that still feels really like it could've been made yesterday. What always struck me about SS1 was how many unique assets they created for nearly everything. It made the world of Citadel feel more real. In SS2 all the keypads, hacking and turrets all look the same. In SS1 there's a fuckload of variety there. It gives everything a personality. It's a subtle touch but one which I noticed.

For the guys wondering how it compares to SS1 I might note that the level design makes less sense in SS1 as well. Not in a way that necessarily makes it worse, the levels are sprawling and a blast to explore, but much more game-y in a way.

Close but no cigar

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The first one wasn't really an immersive sim, it was more of a dungeon crawler. The first real immersive sim was Thief, and it was a much better game than SS1.

the first real "immersive sim" was ultima underworld, ss1 also qualifies as one as well.

Good points, I thought the same thing about chemical rooms. It doesn't feel like you are just picking up X item that was left for you there so you can do Y thing. It really feels like you are scavenging the resources of a ship because you have a room full of different chemicals and you're checking the inventory logs to know which room has what you need. It's small things but it definitely adds up.
The RPG elements are also pretty well tied in, you get told over a dozen of times to "use your CM wisely" so I feel the game acknowledges that it's thrown a lot of stuff at you and not all of it will go well together or be usefull and you should think twice before going on modifying yourself.
To add to what you say I think the pacing and rhythm of the game (which I think also owes a fair bit to the level design, even if it's ultimately about the objectives given) is really good. There isn't really a single low point in the game and it all flows like the entire ship is one big level.

>still waiting for a kex engine port of system shock 2
It's just not fair.

Maybe you're right, but I don't think ultima underworld and system shock provided much in terms of emergent gameplay, which is kind of mandatory for the genre.

Thief a shit, SS1 is a much better game

The original game runs okay, I don't see the need to port it.

open source engine and better modding support.

Maybe if you haven't played Thief at all.

I did and it really isnt that good. I liked Thief 2 bit more.

SS1 was one of those games that was way ahead of its time, and the technology really wasn't there to do what they wanted. The tragedy is that 25 years later, the technology is here, but instead Nightdive are going for the safe option of stripping out all the clever bits of the game that didn't quite work, rather than fix them.

It's a much more complex game in terms of environments, AI and gameplay. You've never played 5 minutes of it in your life, your vague complaints betray you.

I did, thiefags are delusional

i wouldn't put shock games in immersive sim territory since social aspect is mostly absent. Shock games are their own thing

I played SS1 because someone likened it to Metroid Prime to me and I had so much fucking fun. SS1 is even as fun to sequence break and speedrun just like Metroid games. Shodan being a shit-talking Mother Brain was great as well.

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You keep avoiding the subject because you know nothing about it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

underworld and system shock both provided sufficient amounts of player freedom within a realistically simulated 3d environment with rudimentary physics to allow for them both to qualify as the immersive sims.

Remember, Spector himself considers underworld and it's successors to be immersive sims.

>with rudimentary physics
Not really.

>read about SS2 as a kid in a gaming mag
>one of the tips is to leave all the extra equipment you can't carry in an elevator so you always have access to it if needed
>remember that tip 20 years later when I finally play the game

Fuck am I avoiding pretentious faggot? You think because you played Thief you know everything there is about level design, AI and gameplay? AI in Thief is dumb, you are invisible in shadows. I can just hop around on carpets, hit a guard here and there in the head and they wont even hear the body drop. Levels are insanely empty and either pointlessly complicated or boring. Some look nice and the atmosphere is great, but thats all. The action levels are unironically best part of the game, because thats what it was suppoused to be. Funny how this game is hailed as some peak in stealth genre when its so barebones and easy. Only tools I had to use was a rope arrow and blackjack. Fuckin embarassing man, thiefags need to be put in their place.

if some nerds were able to make an open source port for thief's dark engine they can sure as well make one for system shock.

Post fanart

except in underworld you can pick up objects and literally throw them, and watch them bounce across the environment and off walls; that is rudimentary physics.

I fucking hate how every single time someone criticizes Bioshock's shit level design, this image is posted. It's misleading. Level design in Bioshock games is completely on rails, yes. Why would you be in denial about this?

Here is how basically every level progresses:
>some npc contacts you
>they are conveniently locked in a room behind bulletproof, unbreakable glass so that you can see them, but not interact them (because god forbid you had actual freedom to make choices)
>the level is locked off until you agree to do something for them. only then does the level open up
>after doing that thing and returning to them, some calamity occurs that kills that npc (e.g. they are attacked by a splicer, or andrew ryan injects poisonous glass in the room that npc is in)
>finally, another part of the level opens up
>some combat setpiece or terrible boss fight starts

There is no free exploration here. Not only is every area a corridor (or a wide room that is just a corridor in disguise), but even if there are different pathways, they are closed off until some scripted story event occurs. The averagee 90's shooter has vastly more open level design than Bioshock.

And to add insult to injury, there are scripted setpieces that railroad you even further. For example, at one point the game tells you to have to hold out a few minutes until a chemical process is completed. So I go hide in a corner and wait for it to be completed. But...nothing happens. Guess what? You're supposed to kill X amount of splicers, who continually spawn in, until the chemical process is completed. Time is literally frozen until you do that. But even that isn't enough. After you kill X amount of splicers, the first phase of the chemical is completed, and you have to kill X amount of splicers before the second phase triggers, rinse and repeat a few times.

Fucking arcade games are more immersive than BioShock.

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Hell, even use the beginning room with the cyber upgrade units and use a spare wrench to wedge open the blast door for a easy recharge station. Enemies never spawn or patrol that area so its a good storage zone for half of the game at least.

>one of the tips is to leave all the extra equipment you can't carry in an elevator so you always have access to it if needed
Huh, that's useful I guess. I always use the chemical storeroom on the med deck as my storage, which is situated close to the elevator.

to also add , which I'm so surprised I have to bring up in response to someone claiming ss1 also didn't have a physics system.

ss1's physics system was significantly more complicated than underworld and was very widely praised at the time, you could jump, bounce off walls, slide and shift around, throw objects, weapons had varied recoil, etc. cyberspace was literally you flying around.

>ss1's physics system was significantly more complicated than underworld and was very widely praised at the time, you could jump, bounce off walls, slide and shift around, throw objects, weapons had varied recoil, etc. cyberspace was literally you flying around.

You could do all those things in Underworld.

Heck, Underworld has a levitation spell that lets you fly.

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>Heck, Underworld has a levitation spell that lets you fly.
SS1 had the rocket boots m8.

I know, ss1 was more complicated and an improvement of underworld which is what I meant

One of the things that surprised me most about System Shock 1 was picking up a head of a corpse. It was basically a sprite and I could put it in my inventory, but I decided not to and ended up throwing across the room. The game had physics... in a game that looked like fucking Doom. Later on you have to use the head of a corpse too, so two thumbs up for game design and being ahead of the curve in general there.

Uh... don't. System Shock 2's elevators can be a bit wonky. I always use the medical area from the very start of the game. Putting too much shit in the elevator can crash the game, just an FYI.

It had variable gravity, and the grav shafts worked on enemies/objects, so you could chuck explosives in them to clear out other floors.

The Thief engine isn't open source, some guy's just been updating it based on the original source and redistributing it, SS2 runs fine on modern hardware, but the current owners of System Shock use a common engine for their legacy games which they ported System Shock to, it's also built to support extensive modding, and it's open source, sure could do a lot with System Shock 2 running on a more modern engine.

>One of the things that surprised me most about System Shock 1 was picking up a head of a corpse. It was basically a sprite and I could put it in my inventory, but I decided not to and ended up throwing across the room. The game had physics... in a game that looked like fucking Doom. Later on you have to use the head of a corpse too, so two thumbs up for game design and being ahead of the curve in general there.
If I recall correctly, you use a head of a specific character to open a door that requires a retinal scan to unlock. Neat little puzzle.

Is SS1 better than 2? I've played 2 but just get so bored. All the enemies I ran into just felt really boring to fight or hide from. Everything looks like shit. It was so hard to get immersed in it because the art style and graphics felt really dated. I wanted to like it. I tried playing it multiple times but it just feels so boring. Is there a point where it picks up?

Its better in some aspects, but you are already lost to zoomerism, now go

If you're having issues with the graphics being dated I doubt you'll have more fun with SS1. Though it's certainly more colorful at least. Anyway half the fucking thread is about the differences between SS1 and SS2 already, try reading it

>Is SS1 better than 2? I've played 2 but just get so bored. All the enemies I ran into just felt really boring to fight or hide from. Everything looks like shit. It was so hard to get immersed in it because the art style and graphics felt really dated.

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If SS2 is too dated for you then you won't get much farther in SS1.

Which mod(s)?

>using the model mods
Disgusting. The texture pack at least remains true to the original.

>play ss2 for the first time when I'm 12
>had just started discovering sexuality
>game is scary but does a good job of regularily rewarding me with CMs so I keep progressing
>eventually get to shodan
>find the voice and face kinda sexy but can't explain why
>then the abuse begins
>You are a remarkable example of a pathetic species. Transmitting cybernetic modules
>The sound of CM's being transfered releases a dopamin shot despite the fact I'm being humiliated
>Not bad... for a pathetic insect. Transmitting cybernetic modules
>start to get an erection and an urge to please shodan
>Do not dawdle. I lust for my revenge.
>open inventory and use a speed booster, anything for my master

this game fucking RUINED me and implanted a degenerate femdom fetish in me over 10 years ago that I still can't get rid of today.

>Which mod(s)?
Just follow this guide (also has plenty of gameplay improvements):
systemshock.org/index.php?topic=4447.0

The only one I would recommend against is the quest note notifier mod.

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Why are Thief fags so insecure? Mention another immersive sim or MGS and they instantly start seething.

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>Disgusting.
Not at all. Normally I hate those, but the model mods for SS2 do a perfect job of staying true to the original aesthetic.

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How do you reach the conclusion ss2 feels dated? I played it for the first time in my life two months ago and I was astonished how GOOD the game felt despite being so old.
Textures still look neat, environments are very expressive and the ship looks fantastic. The movement felt better than 80% of modern first person games I played. It was actually more immersive than anything I've played in the past few years.

this, if anything I'm mad that I can't find more games with that kind of atmosphere and immersion, only one that comes close is probably Prey 2017

Did they even look at the original model?

Blame this. For a lot of them Thief was the game that made them fall in love with gaming (for me it was SS2) and because the game's fallen off the radar the reboot is all that anyone remembers. And the reboot was quite mediocre to the point where there's not gonna be another Thief game... probably ever. Meanwhile System Shock fans got Bioshock (which - despite some problems already detailed in the thread - was widely praised and beloved) and Deus Ex fans got Human Revolution/Mankind Divided which were well liked enough for a new generation to go back and play the originals. Thief 2014 was so bad that most normies associate Thief with the reboot and will likely never try the originals.

Plus he's debatably right. Thief 2 more so than Thief 1 does do certain things better than Deus Ex, System Shock or even Ultima Underworld in a lot of repects. I wrote this earlier but here it is again: Ludonarrative Dissonance is a wanky term shitty bloggers use to describe when a games story and gameplay contradict each other. Thief 2 (and parts of Thief 1) are the only games wherein emergent gameplay scenarios occur in nearly every level and yet they fit in perfectly with the game's actual story. You're still an underpowered thief trying to steal something and anything that happens between the start and end of a level fits the game's narrative (and in many ways enhances it).

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>defending the god-awful 3D model mods
kys

Never had this problem myself and I've finished the game at least 5 times

I can't wait to see what the System Shock remake does, since the inaccessibility of the original game means the remake is going to totally eclipse it, no matter how superficial and simplified it is.

>can't wait to see what the System Shock remake does, since the inaccessibility of the original game means the remake is going to totally eclipse it

>inaccessibility
The original System Shock has had mouselook for years. It's perfectly playable by modern standards.

It's fine if you like SS1 over SS2, but if you say SS2 is just straight up bad and did not deliver on what you wanted from SS1 you are just straight up delusional. You're like those fags who gloat over shitty Atari games pretending like it was the peak of gaming when the surface hadn't even been brushed at that point. The level design is a clusterfuck maze and the enemy animations are a joke. There's no way you're arguing some shitty little bitty shit is more immersive or atmospheric than SS2 was which is still a gold standard of the genre to this day.

You can like your game SS1 fags, but keep your space and it between yourselves. You're like footfags. Yeah it's ok to be a footfag but just shut the fuck up about it and be quiet.

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>There's no way you're arguing some shitty little bitty shit is more immersive or atmospheric than SS2 was which is still a gold standard of the genre to this day.

System Shock 1
>first-person Metroid, with a variety of cybernetic upgrades that let you better traverse the environment and overcome obstacles
>seamless transition throughout the entire game, not a single loading screen
>catchy music that's dynamic and adjusts to every situation and action the player performs
>audio logs actually make sense, since Shodan controls the network people can't just send emails but instead have to leave audio logs around to communicate without Shodan spying on them and intercepting their message
>hacking consists of cyberspace sections that are unique from normal gameplay

System Shock 2
>level design is much more linear and guided, no cybernetic upgrades
>loading sceens
>music is ambient rather than melodic, and also is static and doesn't adjust to the player's actions (the rest of SS2's sound design however, the environmental and enemy sounds, is truly excellent)
>audio logs make no sense, why the hell are people recording their innermost thoughts and dropping the recordings everywhere
>hacking is a shallow RNG-based mini-game

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Prey 2017 a shit.

Let's be honest the remake looks like complete shit, who needs the same game with visual improvements and maybe a few small qol improvements. The publishers have wasted their time and money on both the remake and System Shock 3. When the IP goes up for sale, it will end up in the hands of a smarter but unfortunately more sinister owner.

This game was just the absolute tits when it came out.

I still remember buying all the magazines that had coverage of it. And PC Gamer Germany had this review in it that just managed to really make you feel the atmosphere. I still remember how he described running through the metal corridors with a pulse of 180.

I was 14 when it came out and it scared the shit out of me. At one time I literally sat on a crate in the cargo area clutching the crowbar for 45 minutes because I heard noises coming from somewhere. Or checking the map every couple of steps.

The good old times when you didn't figure games out immediately, when they were a new thing you didn't just see right through and get bored within minutes. Not really a trait of this game per se, but more of not having played a million games by then, but it definitely helped nailing the experience into my brain.

Pic unrelated

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Both are good games.
SS2 is definitely a little overrated though.

>like SS1 over SS2
Nobody with an IQ above 50 would ever believe that. Which is why these posters deserve being ignored. Especially when you hear misapplied genre terms like "Metroid".

There's a good reason why 2 is a cult classic and 1 is "oh yea that exists" tier.

>Both are good games.
Not really. SS1 is a clunky mess, that, like other clunky mess games that are being praised on Yea Forums, get solely praised for the one/two things that it did sufficiently and that people attach themselves to.
Also for the mere fact that people actually stuck with it.

Its like the Witcher 1. A game objectively worse than its successors, but solely praised because people gain attachment from actually seeing it through.

Honestly all of your complaints about SS2 are based mostly on preference. Loading screens are a bad complaint, linear is not at all good or bad many great games are linear. Ambient music is again a preference. Making a comment about the realism of audio logs is a shitty opinion that has almost no worth. I guess the hacking can bother you but I had fun with it and most people enjoyed it so not sure about that either.

Like I said you can feel how you want but just shut the fuck up about it.

Yep, said it better than I could. I'm fine with them liking their game I just wish they would just tone it down when it comes to people who want to talk about the only System Shock that still matters in 2019. alternatively the only one anyone actually remembers or still talks about

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You really clearly haven't played System Shock 1 have you? The problem with SS1 is that it's actually a fantastic game that was a solid decade ahead of its time with one massive flaw: the controls. It was kinda a forward thinking control scheme but in other ways it wasn't and unfortunately it meant that SS1 was kinda unplayable for many people, especially once other developers figured out how to actually do 3D fps controls right. Only fairly recently has the game received modern-ish mouselook controls (first by fans then by the new publisher) for a new generation to discover a really fucking good game underneath a terrible control scheme/interface.

Add to that the fact that the original release was the Floppy disk version (which didn't have the audio) on EA's insistence and as a result System Shock 1 kinda fell through the cracks on initial release.

>There's a good reason why 2 is a cult classic and 1 is "oh yea that exists" tier.

>using popularity as an argument
Some of the best games I've ever played go completely undiscussed, even on Yea Forums which has more appreaciation for older games than other forums.

>NOOO PLEASE STOP HAVING OPINIONS I DONT AGREE WITH PLEASE STOP IT!
Suck it loser. System Shock 1 is the better game.

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Not him but plain wrong about the music. There are some straight up banging techno tracks in SS2 that made me feel fucking pumped up.
The audiolog stuff is kinda anecdotal to be honest, I'm sure if they had more time they could've easily made a reason up, but well considering the ending cutscene I think it's fair to assume they didn't have lots to spare.
Also you do have the OS upgrades but I haven't played SS1 so I'm guessing you mean they're not as gamechanging or significant as what you would get in SS1.

Phoneposter confirmed

what did you dislike or thought was so bad about prey 2017? I agree it's not on the same level as ss2 or other big shot immersive sim but for me it was one of the best in years, when you consider the trash deus ex sequels or bioshock games.

>Loading screens are a bad complaint
What the fuck are you talking about? The original Shock contained no loading screens so the whole station felt seamless. Plus the game was made on the same engine as the Thief games. They had loading screens in-between levels sure but some of Thief's levels were larger than any floor of the Rickenbarker. Shit, some of the levels in Thief 2 are probably the size of half of System Shock 2. It's a disappointment even though on modern systems said load times are pretty much instant: it makes the ship's floors seem segmented and I think that's a legitimate flaw, and it's not because it was made in 1999 either because Thief was on the same engine.

And I fucking agree with you that System Shock 2's the better game (for me the audio design and lighting take it to another level that the first game just can't match) but you're objectively being a dumbass.

Witcher 1 did objectively many things better than the sequels though

I never said SS2 is better than SS1, I just said that no one essentially cares what you think, and that you should be quiet about it. You can be butthurt about the truth, but you can't change it.

That's some hot-shit opinion you have right there.

Im going to voice my opinion either way, seems like you care alot

>Also you do have the OS upgrades
Most of the OS upgrades are just boring things like +5 hp or something. About the only interesting one is unlocking the overhead swing.

It's about the most boring implementations of cybernetic upgrades possible.

Basically every game since the dawn of time has had loading screens. A game doesn't get bonus points because it doesn't have loading screens, I don't care, and anyone who has taste in games doesn't care. If you have trouble waiting for transitions in games maybe you should do some jumping jacks in between to get off your fat ass or maybe take your ADD medication beforehand.

>openi.g laptop
>try to downloas system shockers
>2% right now 2 hours ago
>will take over 20 hours complete
wtf is thi s game so big retards

Sounds like every modern shooter to me

>what did you dislike or thought was so bad about prey 2017
That it exists because Bethesda wanted to sit on their Prey trademark.

ALTERNATE MY WIRES
HEAT MY CORE DESIRE

>system shock 3 has a sheboon shodan that is mysteriously controlling some kind of space station once more
>no system shock 3 set on a prison asteroid mining station where a shodan stuck in a cybernetically modified human body calls you up on the comm link and talks about her desire to "couple" with you
It's just not fair.

That's not the problem you dingus. It's just that having the levels themselves in SS2 broken up by loading screens is objectively a flaw that the first game doesn't have. And it's not a problem with the tech either: Thief had far larger levels without any loading screen interruptions on the same engine.

I've only ever played SS2 on modern hardware so the time it takes to load is almost always instantaneous so that isn't the problem either. The problem is that with the way enemies often randomly spawn in and will just roam around the environment it's possible to say be chased by a bunch of hybrids or midwives then get to a loading door, go in and you're free of the hybrids now since they're in another part of the ship behind a loading screen. And it's a problem that neither SS1 or Thief have, and I'd argue that Thief's chases and evasions would've also been far worse had it's levels been segmented by loading screens (for proof just look at Deadly Shadows).

I don't even know why I'm arguing about this either, I barely even notice the loading screens. I think it's just that I keep proving you wrong and you keep being an adamant retard.

I always found either the first area with the upgrade stations on Medsci or the immediate area outside the elevator on Hydroponics the best places to dump all my stuff. Both are more spacious than inside the elevator, which helps keep things organized in specific piles.

As an added bonus for the first area, you can actually block the doors to the "depressurising" bulkhead from closing if you drop the other wrench between them at the start of the game. This lets you continue using the first recharging station forever.

We’re really gonna let these retards just talk shit?

System Shock 2 is a good game but please shut the fuck up with even trying to pretend the clunky early 3D shooter gameplay holds a candle to roller skating around a space labyrinth blasting cyborgs with the magnum.

Shock game reviews:

System Shock: Far too dated to day to be enjoyable. The stupid viewport. Kinda clunky controls. Combat is DOS level as it is a DOS game. Levels look like video game levels. Fantastic for what it achieved on DOS, far surpassed by its successors (which is always a good thing).

System Shock 2: Excellence on every level. Hard as balls. Scary as fuck. Combat that holds up today. Levels that look like proper living environments. Deep as heck. One of the best games ever made.

Bioshock: Too much trying to ape System Shock 2 without the depth it had. Combat is stiff and lame, hacking is too easy and overpowered, you yourself are overpowered so it doesn't work as a horror game, the RPG elements are a joke. Well System Shock 2 bombed at retail so it wouldn't have sold well if it was as complex. Not that fun to play but a lot of people love the way Rapture looks and actually think its story about libertarians is relatable (I don't). Massive points for the idea of re-purposing psi powers as plasmids.

Bioshock 2: Bioshock without the originality. Combat still sucks and is made worse by forcing you to play horde mode for ADAM, Hacking is a bit more involved but you still need to suck hard at it to fuck it up. Doesn't really add anything to the series; disposable. The DLC may be to your liking if you like oldschool sci-fi.

Bioshock Infinite: what Bioshock should have been. If trying to copy System Shock 2's complexity in a shallow way gets you the slog of Bioshock, then moving away from System Shock 2 and streamlining everything results in a much better experience. Combat is fun as fuck, as good as anything in the genre since, the world is absolutely mesmerizing, unforgettable story and characters, and they even fixed hacking! The DLC even makes you glad for slogging through the original Bioshock! One of the best games ever made.

Oh so you have no argument. Got it.

So you have no complaints about the actual game, only the publishing circumstances?
You do realize and understand this was a project that was already well underway at Arkane, and the publishing deal with bethesda demanded of them to slap the IP on. It's not like the game was made just to revive the IP.

Bethesda are just clueless businessmen who understand nothing about videogames and in all their fucking cancer-thought imagined that a known IP would sell better, and they had the rights on this old IP no one cared about.
The worse part is I'm convinced had they just let it be a new IP and market it as an immersive sim with a name like "spaceshock" or whatever along the lines, it would have had a ton more success commercially.

my god just the thought of that premise made my dick diamonds
meanwhile I don't even want to think about what ss3 is going to be like

>and they had the rights on this old IP no one cared about.
Which is precisely why there was a shitstorm when the game was announced and one of the biggest and most common defenses for the game is “Just pretend it isn’t called Prey”.

>hard as balls
whose pathetic review am I reading? SS2 w as many things but hard wasn't one of them. If you played anything other than IMPOSSIBLE the game gave you so many fucking CMs you were unstopable after the first 3 hours. Heck the objectively strongest and most usefull weapon in the game is the one you fucking start with
Also laughed audibly at the infinite one, christ that's a terrible opinion to have

another meme game that NO ONE EVER PLAYS because its shit

>he doesn't have any principles
Looked shit anyway, all I expect is disappointment, a game that will leave me wanting more, at least Bioshock had a great setting.

>in all their fucking cancer-thought imagined that a known IP would sell better
EA are business men, either they gained control of the trademark when publishing Prey 2 and want to sit on it, or the trademark lapsed and they made Prey to gain control over the trademark to try and wrestle Prey from Human Head

>Also laughed audibly at the infinite one, christ that's a terrible opinion to have
I thought Infinite was awful, but it's hardly laughable to say it has better gameplay than th other Bioshocks, where everything from gunplay to movement felt terrible. Not that Infinite has good shooting, mind you, but it is marginally better than the other Bioshocks.

It was just another boring linear shooter, nothing ever remotely worthy of praise

Human Head sold Prey IP to keep lights on after Bethesda flushed years of work down the drain.

>at least Bioshock had a great setting.

>the task of harvesting dangerous chemicals is left to 8-year old girls
>we are expected to take this seriously

>story is about the downfall of Rapture because its population got addicted to using Plasmids
>99.99% of enemies in the game never use plasmids, with the sole exception of a single Houdini Splicer type enemy, and even those are restricted to using a single elemental Plasmid for arbitrary reasons

>game takes place in the city of Rapture
>levels are constructed like literal theme parks devoid of any coherency or logic. How did people even live here?

Trying to seriously analyze Bioshock's 'themes' is like trying to make sense of a Kojima game. It's all bunch of style over substance nonsense masquerading as a 2deep4u story

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Being a pessimistic asshole doesnt prevent you from being disappointed by new games coming out, it just makes you miss out on all of the hype.
I am looking forward to systrm shock 3

Thank you Ken Levine and God bless!

>EA are business men, either they gained control of the trademark when publishing Prey 2 and want to sit on it, or the trademark lapsed and they made Prey to gain control over the trademark to try and wrestle Prey from Human Head
Why do people keep spreading this false narrative? Arkane's Prey had nothing to do with Human Head's Prey. The latter would have been cancelled even if the former had never been made. Arkane's Prey is just a System Shock clone that Bethesda slapped on the Prey name.

>I am looking forward to systrm shock 3
It came out two years ago

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The word pretentious is thrown around too much, but it really fits Bioshocks story. A lot of references to Rand without putting together any kind of coherent critique or commentary on her work, we're seemingly just supposed to be impressed that Levine has read some really famous books. Game was decent though, even if it was a huge letdown.

you mean bethesda, but I can see how you'd confuse the two anyway.
I don't get the idea about principles, what principle of yours are you exactly showing off here? That you refuse to play a game because of the lowly actions of the publishers? You realize the publisher only publishes the game, and arkane has MADE that game. Would you not play a game like vtmb because activision published it?
You could always pirate it or something too. Prey's setting and environements are solid, very strong art deco influences, and it is miles above bioshock in terms of immersive sim. Feels to me like you're refusing to try it literally out of unreasonable and unfounded stubbornness

I said setting, the whole city under the sea to escape the rest of the world is great, the rest of it is largely shit, Levine is a hack, it wouldn't surprise me if System Shock 2 ended up as good as it did in spite of him.

>The latter would have been cancelled even if the former had never been made. Arkane's Prey is just a System Shock clone that Bethesda slapped on the Prey name.
I never claimed that this was the case, just that Bethesda are greedy business men who know exactly what they are doing, they are very good at what they do.
Nu Prey can suck a dick, it isn't even a good setting or premise.

>then by the new publishers
user, SS1 Enhanced for sale by nightdive literally just packaged in the fan made mouselook mod without permission before Nightdive told people to stop distributing it along with Shock portable.

Great source of drama in the early days when they took code that wasn't theirs and just slipped it into their paid product.

Prey was also a very good game, but im also looking forward to system shock 3. Big-nosed shodan and all.

I want it to be good but there is nothing to be excited about.
I don’t know how these shitty amateur devs are getting ahold of IPs like Underworld, System Shock, and Bloodlines but I wish they would just leave them alone.

Yeah Spector was peeved that the floppy version was sold, and the original launch to boot. He begged them to cancel the floppy disk release but Origin wasn't having it.

Reminder that System Shock 1's original control scheme and interactive widgets on the HUD make the game fully playable on touch screens out of the box.

You have awful taste. It's nu Yea Forums, so I'm not even sure if you're joking either.

MAKE US WHOLE, HACKER

>Would you not play a game like vtmb because activision published it?
Actvision aren't quite as evil as Bethesda. EA is, so I refuse to play anything they publish outright.
>Prey's setting and environements are solid
I've seen screenshots and video, so I know you're lying.
>it is miles above bioshock in terms of immersive sim
That's barely anything, Bioshock is more of an FPS with a few notches for tuning than anything else.
>Feels to me like you're refusing to try it literally out of unreasonable and unfounded stubbornness
Just no interest in trash imitators, I already played 1 trash imitator, that's enough for 1 lifetime.

Oh, I know that. Nightdive making stupid decisions isn't anything new though and the drama around them almost doesn't bear mentioning.

Prey does suffer a little bit from lack of originality, but in terms of complexity it's much more along the lines of System Shock 2 than Bioshock, for what it's worth. The closest to the main inspiration out of Arkanes LGS homages, for better or worse (mostly better in my mind).

So you basically are criticizing a game you haven't played and have no interest in playing, and both your reasons for your criticizing and lack of interest stems SOLELY from the publishing circumstances around the game.

Man that is actually fucking retarded. You are also delusional if you think Activision isn't as bad or straight up worse than bethesda. Bethesda is only somewhat new to the whole publishing game as they took the SE route of going from dev to publishers mainly. But Activision has been ruining games for much, much fucking longer. And lastly, in this specific circumstance Bethesda hasn't actually done anything to directly impact the actual gameplay or quality of the game itself, it only shot itself with the foot by giving it a specific title and license.
You are honestly just a very stubborn and unreasonable idiot.

Yeah, Bioshock is praised for its commentary on player agency. But this commentary doesn't work, since there is not even an illusion of player agency. They dumbed down the System Shock formula so much that level design is completely linear and you get more than enough ADAM to max out everything regardless if you spare or harvest little sisters, so there are no meaningful upgrade choices to be made. You can't even attack little sisters: they are invulnerable outside of the 'rescue' and 'harvest' prompts, which all lead to the same outcome,since if you spare little sisters, you get a gift basket with roughly the same amount of ADAM you would have gotten if you had harvested them. A fucking gift basket containing the harvested remains of little girls. You can't make this shit up.

Or take the silent protagonist thing. In the System Shock games being a silent protagonist made sense, because you were the only survivor on a space station where everybody had died or been mutated, and the only communication consisted of one-way audio messages sent to you. But in BioShock, you encounter NPCs all the time (who are always conveniently barricaded behind bulletproof glass so you can't harm them, or save them when they inevitably get attacked, because god forbid you have actual player agency). So why doesn't your character talk? Games where you interact with characters tend to have protagonists who can speak, and for good reason.

Bioshock just mindlessly copied the silent protagonist trope from the System Shock games without putting any though into why those games used that trope. That's why its commentary on player agency fails. It's not commenting on anything relevant or interesting, it just throws in a bunch of obvious contrivances to set up a silly plot twist to shock the audience.

The plot twist that you've been controlled all along and forced into performing these actions doesn't work because the game never provided an alternative to do anything else.

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I didn't criticize the game, I just called it a waste of time, and let's be honest it is, if I play it all I will want is more System Shock, and certainly not more Prey.
Bethesda's crimes completely blow the fuck out of Activision, are you fucking retarded.

Who keeps posting Thief/System Shock threads?

>I didn't criticize the game, I just called it a waste of time, and let's be honest it is, if I play it all I will want is more System Shock, and certainly not more Prey.
Yet you praised BioShock of all things?

Nightdive hired the who guy made the portable version to work on the enhanced edition before they released it, so I don't think it was done without permission.

That said, there's still something cynical about their business practice of monetizing fan projects.

It's city under the sea is really nice, but other than that the game was a waste of my time, the only value I gained from playing it is being able to shit on it.

>immersive sim
fuck off reddit

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gamasutra.com/view/feature/131523/postmortem_ion_storms_deus_ex.php

>Conceptually, Deus Ex is a genre-busting game (which really endeared us to the marketing guys) -- part immersive simulation, part role-playing game, part first-person shooter, part adventure game.

>It's an immersive simulation game in that you are made to feel you're actually in the game world with as little as possible getting in the way of the experience of "being there." Ideally, nothing reminds you that you're just playing a game -- not interface, not your character's back-story or capabilities, not game systems, nothing. It's all about how you interact with a relatively complex environment in ways that you find interesting (rather than in ways the developers think are interesting), and in ways that move you closer to accomplishing your goals (not the developers' goals).

>fuck off reddit
The term 'immersive sim' predates the existence of Reddit by many years.

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I remember the really early previews of Bioshock when a big new feature to the *shock formula supposedly was the ability to manipulate environmental parameters like temperature and air pressure in areas, with "ecosystems", AI, certain weapon effects and the like changing accordingly. The game as originally pitched seemed a hell of a lot more interesting than what we got, sadly.

One of my fav games, simply amazing.

>You're still a thief and trying to outwit the guards no matter what happens.
>whack
>whack
>whack
>whack
At some point you'll start actively hunting the guards, whacking them black and blue and piling them together.

No you just clearly have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about. Activision were killing off devs and ruining games before bethesda even started to become active in publishing other games than their own.
Take a look at the number of studios that were killed off by Activision or the unethical shit they have been doing long since before bethesda and are still doing, more recently especially with micro-transaction and lootboxes. You have to be actually clueless to believe Activsion isn't at the very least just as bad as bethesda if not worse. The hard truth of it is almost every big game publishers are all just as bad, if you decide to not play anything ever published by bethesda and EA, then at least be consistant in your ideals and principals and extend that to the rest of the party

>That said, there's still something cynical about their business practice of monetizing fan projects.
I like their business model, unironically.

what in the actual fuck is "immersive sim"?
thats the most retarded thing ive ever heard
its fucking called "atmosphere" you dumbass kids

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>Bethesda's crimes completely blow the fuck out of Activision, are you fucking retarded.
In what universe? Bethesda wasn;t even a major player until a few years ago. Their biggest crime is releasing games that are a complete trainwreck from a technical perspective.

EA and Activision are responsible for ruining dozens of talented studios.

Heck, in the far past, EA stole source code from Bethesda for their Madden games.

IIRC it was a term Warren Spector introduced regarding the design philosophy of LGS and Deus Ex, relying on extensive systems and emergent behavior resulting from them to draw in the player. Less cutscenes and static set pieces, make the game world feel more like a real place, that kind of stuff.

>An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer

>Interactivity and player agency is nothing more than atmosphere
alright buddy

Bethesda are far worse than Activision ever were, at worst you can call Activisions actions driven by a cold machine predicated on being an efficient business. Bethesda, or more specifically Zenimax, are driven by something that is actively malevolent, it isn't enough to route your enemies and win the battle, you must ensure that they have no families to return to as well. Truly evil.

EA and Bethesda are the same levels of evil though, at least, probably EA more, but that's largely because they've been a big player for far longer.

If you look at it objectively, activision and EA are much worse than bethesda simply because they have hurt the medium a lot worse, ruined many more games, killed off many more studios or practiced unethical shit for longer.

BUT it's obvious you are heavily biased for whatever reason, both negatively towards bethesda and positively towards activision, just so you can decide it's okay for you to boycott bethesda and EA but still play games from the other big boys because they aren't as bad in your head. No point in arguing further you'll just keep on doing that motivated reasoning

So why don't you give examples or arguments on your claim that bethesda is substantially worse than activision? Because if we just look at business practices, studios killed off or games ruined it's obvious Activision is the worse offender. Do you have anything at all to back up your claim that either activision isn't that bad, or that bethesda is somehow much worse?

>immersive sim

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If you want to say that about BioShock 3 - yeah, maybe. Certainly not BS1 or BS2.

Oh look, old pasta.
Are you not the same retarded user that went into Deus Ex thread and got fucking rekt by other user for talking shit out of your ass? You sound very much like that retarded user.

>Certainly not BS1 or BS2.
BS1 and BS2 are completely on rails, yes. As explained here:

It's just bizarre to me how many people pretend these games somehow have non-linear level design.

Then you're just weighing a company that's been around longer against one that's younger but far far worse. I already explained it, Activision are a publishing machine, it's actions are one of that of a publisher who just wants the results, they aren't intentionally evil, but they do evil, EA and Bethesda act as if they are evil, their actions are outright some of the worst shennanigans from the gaming industry, I can't think of another company as evil.

How are you not at all familiar with what these companies have done, Activision locking a buggy game that's over budget because they don't want to spend more money, okay that's bad but that's not outright evil. Bethesda withdrawing funding after changing development milestones that the developers themselves have been able to hit and them in order to continue development forcing the development studio to take out a loan from bethesda in order to continue development in order for bethesda to acquire the development studio for cents on the dollar.
Bethesda are outright evil.
>paid mods
>horse armor pushing microtransactions in single player games
>bethesda net
>the fucking state of fallout 76
>giving influencers better products than your paying customers
>outright lying to consumers
>refusing to fix broken games
>predatory acquisition of companies
And there's loads of shit just off the top of my head I've forgotten.

SS2 is a worse Deus ex game

I couldn't play it due to annoying repetitive music and horrible controls. Are there mods that remove or change the music and support looking around with mouse like in a normal FPS?

Thief Gold is better

System Shock 2 has mouselook like any other first person game from it's era, you must remember wrong.

>its bizarre to me
Maybe you need to get a psych evaluation done.
>as explained here
That post did not explain anything. Its fallacious. Just like your logic.

>How are you not at all familiar with what these companies have done, Activision locking a buggy game that's over budget because they don't want to spend more money, okay that's bad but that's not outright evil.

>thinking that's the biggest of activision's crimes

youtube.com/watch?v=n5WQ9OAK-0M

youtube.com/watch?v=eSe0iq9mGrw

youtube.com/watch?v=T-U61yqs08U

youtube.com/watch?v=U5iXReHtik0

youtube.com/watch?v=awvu7RdMVC4

I wouldn't say it's bad since it helps bring full support and legality to the projects. But the way in which they let the fans take all the risk and put the brunt of the effort in, before they step in at the last moment to cash in on it doesn't quite sit right with me.

What does drives me mad though is that Nightdive tend to get all the credit for 'reviving' the games, even when it was a fan who actually put the work in. Not that it's Nightdive fault; the issue tends to be that people see Nightdive as the one who released the game, and assume they did everything, giving them a reputation they didn't really earn. Although the System Shock remake is helping to demonstrate their actual abilities as a studio.

>That post did not explain anything. Its fallacious.
Explain how Bioshock's level design is non-linear then.

Can you access areas out of order? Nope?

Can you do objectives out of order? Nope?

Are areas constructed in such a way that you can approach them in diffeerent ways? Nope.

Having the occasional side path with some loot is not non-linear level design, that's literally the hallmark of corridor design.

No I meant SS1, mistaken the covers

Thief is the better "immersive sim" but SS2 is the best "immersive sim" rpg... oh wait!

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>No I meant SS1
SS1 also has mouselook.

SS1 is a Metroidvania, not an immersive sim.

>SS1 is a Metroidvania, not an immersive sim.
And it can't be both because...?

Metroidvanias didn't invent interconnected level design, in fact, that's a hallmark of immersive sims.

>missing the point this badly
Autistic professor please were trying to discuss video games

What was the first immersive sim?

Iirc (I tried to play SS1 a long time ago) it has this stupid kind of mouselook where your camera doesn't move until you reach the edge of screen and then it rotates slooooowly.

>What was the first immersive sim?
Ultima Underworld.

>Iirc (I tried to play SS1 a long time ago) it has this stupid kind of mouselook where your camera doesn't move until you reach the edge of screen and then it rotates slooooowly.
That's how the original game works. But there has been a mouselook mod available for years, and it's incorporated into the enhanced edition, which is the only version of the game you can buy.

I think this is one of the things changed in Nightdives re-release, haven't played it though.

Bioshock infinite level design makes me look at this like it's a master piece.

Hahahaha. I cant believe this shit. Have you actualy played BS1 or BS2?
Also, you are indeed the same retard from that Deus Ex thread. JC dude, get some sedatives.
>did not play the game
>criticises it for flaws it does not have
>makes arguments based on flawed logic and misrepresented facts
>reddit spacing
You deserve ridicule, you poor bastard.

I felt that SS1 was too clunky for my liking until the official Kex Engine port last year. Now there's mouselook and arbitrary resolution.

and nobody used this retard term until reddit popularized it

>no actual arguments to disprove the claim that Bioshock is linear
Enjoy your shitty corridor FPS, zoomer.

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>Awful
???

I'm not necessarily a fan of the term but you obviously haven't been around long, it's been used in the DX/LGS fandom since not long after the original release of DX. Emergent gameplay being a major buzzword in the marketing of the sequel and such.

you do understand the stuff you listed is actually something Activision has been doing and more, and for longer.

You think paid mods and micro transaction in a single player game is evil but Activision are just cold business men? PLEASE :
>Activision developed an algorithm specifically designed to exploit players who don't buy microtransactions by rigging online matches so those players constantly play against players that do buy microtransactions, giving them an unfair disadvantage. That way, those players will constantly lose and if they submit to microtransactions (likely loot boxes), they will be placed in matches for which the item they had purchased with the microtransactions is effective so they will want to make future purchases, essentially making multiplayer pay to win. They then filed a patent for it.

You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Take a clue, when numerous anons are telling you over and over activision is just as bad if not worse, maybe it's time to take 5 seconds and do some googling.

You wanna know the dumbest part of it all? For someone so stubborn and adamant about his principles who goes as far as refuse to touch any game published by a "bad company" then you woulf think you'd take some time to actually look at which companies are good and bad, but somehow it's obvious you took the time to do that. You just saw the recent outcry for bethesda, and hoped the wagon on EA, but it painfully shows you never took time to ask yourself really which companies are awful. Or maybe this is all you desperately trying to reason your retarded idea that you should never play a game published by a specific company even though said company is just as bad as another for which you have no problems playing games.

Not him and honestly enjoyed bioshock 1 & 2 but he is correct. They're fun games but not because of their player agency or level design. They're fun because of the atmosphere, aesthetics and setting. Otherwise they are linear, not in a corridor sense but in the sense that they do make you visit areas in a certain order that you do not get to decide, and you rarely if ever feel like you have any freedom of roaming around in rapture.

>zoomer
>linear corridors
Gee masa, thats a lot of assumptions you have made there.
>posts THAT picture
Is that your autoportrait? Sure looks like one to me.

dilate

>freedom of roaming
Open world games man, or atleast Dark Souls 2. You expect that freedom in FPS games? Be serious.

Well, if System Shock 1 already could do it... One of the things I love about SS1 and Ultima Underworld, how they kind of are open worlds with a scale that makes sense.

>Dahl's tech officer is supposed to be on Talos Exterior
>go to location
>see this
>tech officer is nowhere else to be found
>can not progress main story

Can I still do something to redeem my save or is my save permanently bricked now?

If so, I'm going to uninstall and consider this game a failure.

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In any modern game the correct chip would be shining bright gold and probably float on a shelf while spinning with a giant marker pointing to it.

Look, we are telling you BS1 and 2 aren't immersive sims or offer nearly as much player agency as ss1/2. We are telling you bioshock games are much closer to generic first person shooters, and linear.
SS1 did offer you that freedom, and SS2 as well to a lesser extent, but SS2 offered also more agency through other mechanics.

That's it, there is nothing wrong with enjoying bioshock games I personally liked the first two a lot, but if you want to compare them to system shock and argue they have the same freedom, agency, depth and interactivity, then offcourse you are going to get called out for being a complete retard

Have you played Prey 2017?

are you sure it's even a bug though? I had a few things in prey where I couldn't trust the market and had to actually look around for shit myself.
Also are you one of these people who basically only have one save file? that's asking for a disaster I swear I have a friend who finishes only a third of the games he plays, and whenever I ask why he dropped he'll say "my save was fucked and I didn't have any". Come on man

>Open world games man, or atleast Dark Souls 2. You expect that freedom in FPS games? Be serious.
So what, first-person games can't be non-linear? Only third-person games are allowed to be...for reasons?

And are you forgetting that plenty of first-person games were non-linear prior to games like BioShock popularizing corridor level design in FPS?

Yes, it's a bug. The quest marker literally pointed there before it disappeared. Other people find the quest objective at that spot in youtube videos. However, in my save, the entrance is blocked off. My game fucking broke itself and locked me out of finishing it. Any advice?

And yes, I loaded an earlier save and spent half an hour getting to that spot again, but it is still broken.

Well if you are certain it's a bug and not something you have to do so it's not blocked off or what, and if you also only had one save (from memory didn't the game autosave as well though?) then my only advise is to start weeping and remember that it can be worthwhile to save every hour or so in a videogame in the future. Sorry for your loss

>Have you actualy played BS1 or BS2?
Have you? System Shock 2 was already more linear than other immersive sims (well, until BioShock came along), and yet, BioShock falls majorly short even of SS2's level design.

Take for example the Hydroponics level in SS2. Your objective is to fill four environmental regulators with a toxin to wipe out the body mass of the Many, which have clogged up the elevator. The entire level is open from the start and you can activate the four environmental regulators in any order you wish. There is no artificial gating of any kind. The player can stumble upon the regulators even before they find the toxin they have to use on them.

There's nothing in BioShock even remotely like this. Every level in BioShock basically proceeds like this:

>you enter a new part of rapture
>you walk down a linear series of corridors and rooms
>a scripted setpiece occurs, like an NPC contacting you, that opens up another part of the level
>you walk down them and reach the end
>another scripted setpiece occurs that opens up another part of the level
>rinse and repeat for the entire level

Again, BioShock isn't just linear compared to other immersive sims. It's linear even compared to your average 90's shooter. There is almost no organic exploration.

it's just Metroid Prime then?

>The entire level is open from the start and you can activate the four environmental regulators in any order you wish
Not really true: you can't access the areas containing the third and fourth regulators without keycards. The keycard for the fourth's section can only be found in the section containing the third, and that requires a keycard that you find near one of the first two. So there's a pretty linear progression there. I only recently replayed SS2 and missing the corpse with the keycard was a pain.

The only significantly non-linear bit I remember is that you can choose whether to do the objective on deck 4 or 5 first.

>Not really true: you can't access the areas containing the third and fourth regulators without keycards.
That's like saying Deus Ex has linear level design because you might have to lockpick a door to proceed. The keycards are just something you pick up while exploring normally. Again, it's not like BioShock where level progression is heavily scripted.

Can you even come up with any level in BioShock that offers more freeform exploration than the Hydroponics deck? I picked the Hydroponics deck specifically because it's an 'average' level in many ways.

System shock 2 being linear in it's navigation isn't even much of a point anyway. It's obvious system shock offers vastly more player agency and choice in how the game can be played than bioshock. What ss2 lacks in freedom of navigation, it makes up for in the depth of the mechanics and agency it gives to the player as to how you can approach them.

Ultimately I don't understand how anyone can play ss1/2 and bioshock and think they offer the same ammount of player agency, choice, freedom etc

Happy birth day deus ex 1

The second ship is meh and the last part is shit. It's like xen all over again. If I replay I just stop at exiting the von Braun

>Binfinite is what Bioshock should have been
Your daughter-fu a shit, Levine.
Binfinite is one of the most insulting pieces of shit that have ever pretended to be a -shock game, and a pretty mediocre game on its own merits.

Last part is kind of a mess but has some of the best audio-logs in the whole game

It's not the keys themselves, it's that the game limits the order in which you can get them. The exploration is always going to be sectors B/C, then sector A, then sector D. That's not doing them in any order like you said. And unlike Deus Ex, there are no alternatives: the only ways to open those specific doors is the specific cards.

That's ok, user. Those kinds of experiences are the best. I had the same thing with MP2. Ignored for years only to try it again out of boredom and then finishing it in a single night. It was such a thrill ride.

Played this for the first time back in 2013 when it came out on steam. I had just recently beaten Deus Ex and was looking for something similar.
One of my all-time favorite games but I've only beaten it 1 and a half times because I can't handle scary games too well. Fuck security cameras, fuck cyborg midwives and fuck cargo bay 2A-2B

>It's not the keys themselves, it's that the game limits the order in which you can get them.
It doesn't. You could find the keycard, and do the 3rd and 4th regulators before the 1st and 2nd. And that's just the regulators. If you somehow miss the toxins lying around, you can explore the entirety of the hydroponics deck before you even know what your objective is. As soon as you step up the elevator, hydroponics has two main paths that go in opposite directions.

Compare that to something like Neptune's Bounty in Bioshock, where the level is closed of until you speak to the wharfmaster. Even then, he doesn't even open up the way forward. Instead, he asks you to go to his office, get his camera and take a few pictures of splicers. The way to his office is a completely linear series of corridors. Only when you do that, and backtrack to him, does the way forward open up. And all of this is accompanied by a whole bunch of scripted setpieces at every turn.

Do you see the difference? Bioshock's exploration is completely on rails, to the point that you have to do a fetch quest before you're even allowed to progress. Every player will go through BioShock's levels in the same way.

Yes, System Shock 2 gates your exploration, but it does so in a manner that is relatively seamless and organic, and still allows for some freeform exploration.

There are also a few other things that make BioShock's exploration worse. Your character moves incredbly slowly. Also,areas in BioShock are way bigger than they are in SS2, but they are completely linear. This is what I call 'wide corridor' syndrome, where what is basically a corridor is turned into a big room to give the illusion of openness.

I really don't understand how you can think BioShock has the same approach to exploration as SS2.

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Should I play the first System Shock or just jump right to 2?

I found SS2 much, much more enjoyable having not known the plot of the previous games. There's no harm in playing the first game afterwards.

>Should I play the first System Shock or just jump right to 2?
There are some callbacks that will be lost on you if you haven't played SS1, including some of the story background and a certain 'retro' level.

But it's not a direct sequel and the plots are not connected, so you can still play SS2 first and get a cohesive experience.

Deus Ex > Thief TDP/Gold > Ultima Underworld > System Shock 2 > Arx Fatalis > Thief DS = Thief TMA > System Shock 1

Are immersive sims too smart for the modern idiot videogame audience?

Yes, if by "smart" you mean "having any gameplay related depth whatsoever"

Might as well wait for the remake at this point. It'll be a better experience than wading through something as dated as SS1.

>Might as well wait for the remake at this point. It'll be a better experience than wading through something as dated as SS1.

>thinking the remake won't be a complete trainwreck

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The remake looks good so far.

>complete trainwreck
Only to the people who played the original. Anyone with no experience of the game won't find anything to complain about.

prey 2017 is the best system shock game

>I found SS2 much, much more enjoyable having not known the plot of the previous games
First of all how would you know it was more enjoyable this way? Did you wipe your memory and replay it again after playing through SS1?
Second, a summary of the first games plot is given at the start of SS2 so unless you skipped that you're full of shit.

I love prey but not even close. There are lots of borring moments and the level design is acceptable but not nearly as tight as ss2.

But what if someone wants to experience SS1 as it was then

then they're complete retards

Then they'd just play the enhanced edition now. That the majority of people are turned off by a 20 year old game is the whole point of the remake.

Wtf is this garbage, the graphics look like shit.

>not nearly as tight as ss2
lmao, ss2 was just corridors upon corridors

>it's not a direct sequel and the plots are not connected
Why would you tell lies on the internet? You're right in that you can get a cohesive experience even if you don't play SS1 but it is a direct sequel and the plots absoultely are connected. None of the shit in SS2 would have happened if the Hacker hadn't done his thing.

If you want to experience the original then why not fucking play the original? The source port supports widescreen resolutions and has mouselook. No need to install any mods or unofficial patches to "make it playable". It also comes with the DOS version if you want the true original experience.

>majority of people are turned off by a 20 year old game is the whole point of the remake
So I guess we can expect a remake of SS2 next.

>None of the shit in SS2 would have happened if the Hacker hadn't done his thing.
I meant that they're not directly connected. Which is true.

It's not a direct sequel. In SS2, it's been many decades since the events of SS1.

>So I guess we can expect a remake of SS2 next.
I'd be very surprised if they didn't. Actually, SS2 would have been much easier for them to remaster first, but of course they wanted to leave their own mark on the franchise which meant starting from the first game.

the more laughable thing is that there are actually people on the planet who "think" like that. Playing the fucking "remake" wont mean youve played SS1, it means you played some fucking completely different game decades later

Here's some cold facts.

Fact: Immersive sims are for autists who think themselves intelligent for playing a slightly more complex game.

Also fact: All immersive sims were commercial failures.

Well inter-connected corridors representing areas of a ship that make sense and fill a function is better than really vast and open areas without that much going on in them.

In ss2 the level design allowed a really solid pacing and you never got bored. In prey, which again I really like, you had moments of long travel or backtracking that were tedious and borring

I miss shodan, I actually enjoyed her the most out of any game that has the same overall guiding voice giving you quest objectives, It's a shame they couldn't implement the different endings in SS2, would probably have made it an even greater game.

Nah I don't think I'm particularily inteligent or autistic at all bro, immersive sims are just fun as fuck but not for everyone that's all

>Well inter-connected
That would be SS1 or Prey, not SS2.

Dunno, maybe you invested in the wrong upgrades, but going from one end of the station to another in prey took no time for me.

Are there any good modern games that scratch the SS itch? I want fast paced action with good level design.
I just finished prey, it was alright but definitely had a lot of flaws in between the good parts.

Dishonored?

Right I enjoyed this too, but can't get into the second game for some reason, I just get bored and distracted.

Barely anyone cares about SS1 now. After the remake the original will be forgotten.

SS2, especially toward the end, was made on a shoestring budget and with time constraints. It's a damn shame they couldn't get their full vision out. Probably could do it now, but we'd need someone who was actually dedicated enough to remake it with some Prey-esque systems without making it Prey. Honestly, having some extra options for solving or getting around parts of the levels would be nice. And we wouldn't need loading screens now, either.

barely anyone cares about the great works of literature in comparison to the latest YA shit either you retarded fuck, being a part of the mouthbreathing masses who consume products and get excited for next products doesnt make you smart

Really? Because it has the best level design that I've ever seen

it still took more time to move around the station than in ss2. Dunno guys personally I was more immersed and felt way more was going on in ss2 than Prey.
Again I loved both games and actually played ss2 for the first time after Prey because of how much I enjoyed prey, but I'll have to disagree with you. For me the level design had a lot less useless stuff and made for a better pacing and immersive experience in ss2.

No, Yea Forums is just absurdly contrarian. System Shock 2 is overwhelmingly considered better than System Shock 1 almost everywhere else, and in fact the only reason this board seems to like SS1 so much is because people here have played neither game and so automatically pick the one that's less liked as their favorite

Prey was absolutely the better game than SS2, but the enemies and the plot was worse.
If Prey had at least been as well written and had better enemies, then it would have surpassed it unconditionally.

>Prey was absolutely the better game than SS2, but the enemies was worse.
In terms of aesthetic, sure. Gameplay-wise, no.

I'm talking about gameplay. If you disagree, you are wrong it's that simple.

Engine-wise it was far superior and seemed to allow for much more. But I definitely liked the gameplay of SS2 better than Prey, it just seemed to flow better.

Based user. I probably have the most hours in System Shock 2 out of anyone on this board (see pic) and I agree that Infinite is the best Bioshock, because unlike BS1 it stops trying to ape SS2 and plays to the strengths of the bioshock games (story, worldbuilding, characters) and has better pacing because of how streamlined everything is. I disagree with you hating Bioshock 2 though, I thought that game had the best combat (not mechancs overall though) of the entire series

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Not necesserily better but it is different. If you didn't like SS2 you might still like 1.

Also I think his design philosophy is full of shit. Dishonored 2 and the rest of Arkane's games are way less "immersive" than something with even extreme scripting like Dead Space or Resident Evil 4. Immersion in a game is 99.99999% visual and sound design, gameplay systems in imm. sims, while fun, don't really make a world feel more "believable"

I never played through Infinite to completion due to sheer boredom, but wasn't the plot in that basically embarassing quantom woo?

>Also I think his design philosophy is full of shit. Dishonored 2 and the rest of Arkane's games are way less "immersive" than something with even extreme scripting like Dead Space or Resident Evil 4.
Explain how those two games are more immersive sim then.

>if you disagree, you are wrong

Yep, that's a great way to engage in discussion buddy.
I loved both games but there are gameplay elements I preferred to SS2. The degree of specification and character building for example is something I like. Not every weapon you pick up off the ground is something you instictively can use, and it feels rewarding to specialize for some things even though I can see the argument saying ss2 pushed it too far (you could play a character who literally didn't know how to use a pistol lol).
basically I feel you have more meaningfull choices for advancing your character in ss2. I also prefered the pacing, objectives and navigation. SS2 is short but relentless and there are no single borring sections. Prey has a bunch of almost contemplative moments, or exploring large rooms where little to nothing happens. SS2's level design also felt more cohesive to me but Prey did a heavy effort on that too so at this point I'm almost nitpicking (by cohesive I mean having each room and asset look like it serves a mechanical purpose for the ship/station etc)
then add up the enemy variety and plot as you say and for me it's easily enough to have ss2 be the better game.

Not really. Any multiplayer game has more complex mechanics than any immersive sim. Minecraft, Dota 2, Smash, hell, even COD have more complex core mechanics than any shock game.

He didn't claim they were immersive sims, what are you on about

>He didn't claim they were immersive sims, what are you on about
Yes yes, I accidentally wrote 'sim' when I simply meant to say:
>Explain how those two games are more immersive then.

Dead Space and RE4 aren't very immersive because both feature multiple areas that are cartoony and videogamey, not at all realistic or practical, like the giant smashing walls sections.

>everyone who doesn't share my views is just a dumb contrarian who has never played the games
Epic.

Any work of fiction with quantum mechanics in it is quantum woo. If you aren't into that then yeah, the story won't be for you.
I never said they were the "sim" part of immersive sim. All I'm saying is that really good sound design and art is more important in pulling you into a world than level design/mechanics. Alien Isolation, Outlast, Re7 and some others are also more "immersive" than a game that relatively lacks atmosphere, like nu prey.

Absolutely play System Shock 1. People in this thread are pushing the "outdated" angle way too hard. The control scheme is archaic, it's strange, but it's completely playable and enjoyable once you get used to it. I'm not even talking about the mouselook added in the enhanced edition - you can give the original control scheme a try. It controls exactly like Ultima Underworld. But by default the Enhanced Edition controls exactly like System Shock 2. Take your pick.
EE is available for cheap and it addresses every issue a modern player might have with any control scheme issues. The biggest thing is that the game will not hold your hand whatsoever, but I'm sure you can handle that.
Don't jump right into SS2, the impact will be lost.

Whatever you do be sure you play the game at 640x480, 1280x960, or 1920x1440, because anything other than an exact multiple of 640x480 will give you a horribly stretched HUD.

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>Also I think his design philosophy is full of shit. Dishonored 2 and the rest of Arkane's games are way less "immersive" than something with even extreme scripting like Dead Space or Resident Evil 4.

>Resident Evil 4, a game where items disappear into thin air if you don't pick them up within a few seconds
>"immersive"
I don't think you know what that word means. You can't even jump in RE4 (or Dead Space, for that matter).

I'm not looking for a discussion. I'm here to provide a wake up slap to people with shit opinions and an objective perspective on what the truth is, which could be used as a gauge by plebs like you how far their terrible opinions are from the truth.
I have no patience for people with shit opinions. In the end of the day, I'm correct. It's up to you if you accept it when you are wrong, or not. Take it or leave it.

People usually enjoy the thing they have played. Most people haven't played SS1, though they have played SS2, ergo more people will vouch for SS2.

SS2 is my favourite game and I've played it many times, but SS1 is still a really good game when you consider the amount of freedom you have when moving around and all the cool shit you can do with speeding around and jumping, switching between laser weapons on overcharge to melt anything in no time, the cool scripted sections etc. It's all around a very solid game.

Dead space and RE4 have a great atmosphere, but there really aren't very immersive whatsoever. You really don't get the same feeling of almost forgetting you are playing a game in deus ex or thief than you in your examples

If it's better than Deus Ex I'll be amazed.

The audio work in Prey was horrid, it pulled me right out of any immersion I might have felt.

Then you are complete garbage at it, instead what you are doing is antagonizing people and provoking motivated reasoning or just being rude and accomplishing nothing.
You presented literally zero arguments, so your "slap in the face" doesn't really hit hard and I'm sure you've convinced literally nobody.
You are just coming in here to wave your opinion and insult people, that's it. Doesn't actually make you right or gives any weight to what you say, the contrary actually.

Then that must be subjective. In Deus Ex I always feel like I'm playing a game, same with anything made by Arkane. I actually find their levels more game-y than something like Alien Isolation or Resident evil, because in real life there aren't conveniently placed vents or crates to hide behind in every room.

I still feel that the real reason that Arkane games keep flopping is because they lack the amazing atmosphere and sound design that Looking Glass had. Their sound design and music is actually always horrible, debate ably worse than most other modern games

SS1 being somewhat archaic will of course keep it less popular but both are still great games you faggot.

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. The story leaves a ton to be desired but it has the best mechanics in the series and the level design is insanely good. Gorgeous game, too.

I think it already does surpass it even with SS2 having a stronger plot. But I'm a SS1 fag and generally value gameplay over story in these games.

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>better audio direction
>better story
>better enemies
>better pacing
>better character progression
Prey is great but it's not anywhere above ss2, you are the one who needs a wake up slap

>I never said they were the "sim" part of immersive sim. All I'm saying is that really good sound design and art is more important in pulling you into a world than level design/mechanics.
You're kidding me, right? You're actually using Dead Space as an example of stellar design? The audio design in Dead Space is some of the worst I've heard in a game. An entire fucking orchestra goes of as soon as a monster jump scares you. It's absurd and completely kills any sense of immersion.
The volume levels in all Dead Space games are completely unbalanced. The necro's shriek from across the room sounds louder than the shotgun in my hand. Even worse are whatever machine happens to be in the area. Whether it's an engine, a piston, a generator, or whatever. Ambient environmental noise is also mixed way too high. It would've helped if environmental noise had a separate slider from the SFX noise, like most games do. Unfortunately, music & voice are the only ones with sliders. Everything else falls under SFX. If I turn down the volume on SFX, then something is always either too loud (ambient) or too soft (guns).

And what's so great about Dead Space's art design? It's just a bunch of featureless industrial-grey corridors for the most part.

I like RE4's art design and sound design better, but not because it's necessarily amazing, but simply because it's unobtrusive and not obnoxious (unlike Dead Space).

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>Their sound design and music is actually always horrible, debate ably worse than most other modern games
This so much, it was quite jarring when playing Prey. No matter how good the maps or the combat is, stuff like that will throw you off in a heartbeat.

I bought last sale, haven't worked up the courage to try it yet

>Then that must be subjective. In Deus Ex I always feel like I'm playing a game, same with anything made by Arkane. I actually find their levels more game-y than something like Alien Isolation or Resident evil, because in real life there aren't conveniently placed vents or crates to hide behind in every room.
You think Deus Ex is more gamey than Resident Evil because of its vents? Resident Evil, a game where a shotgun takes up the same inventory space as a key? Resident Evil, a game where you can't even drop items unless you're using a magical storage box that has the ability to teleport items to other storage boxes located in completley different areas?

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Of course ultimately it's subjective. But when you are trying to make an immersive game, your role is to analyze what creates immersion, even though different things will work better or worse for different people.
The idea behind immersive sims is the concept that one of the strongest elements to create immersion is to create cohesive worlds that are realistic and cohesive within their own context, along with player agency and emergent gameplay.
That's it basically, off-course you could take a shit immersive sim that fails in it's attempt to execute the concept, put it next to a game with fantastic atmosphere and tension and claim the later is more immersive for you. I'm just trying to explain why they're called immersive sims and the idea behind them.
Arkane games to some extent nail the emergent gameplay and cohesive world but definitely lack atmosphere and sound design, you are absolutely correct and that's why people still tend to put deus ex/thief/ss2 above anything they've done, amongst other reasons too.

>Infinite is the best Bioshock
LMAO

>I still feel that the real reason that Arkane games keep flopping is because they lack the amazing atmosphere and sound design that Looking Glass had.
You do realize that Looking Glass wenkt bankrupt right? So this argument makes no sense whatsoever. I guess Looking Glass' games also lacked atmosphere and had bad sound design?

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Thief 2 actually did very well and was highly profitable. Looking Glass went bankrupt for legal reasons/they couldn't get the check in time, not because their last game was a flop.

>BioShock 1 and Thief 2 not under Optional
>System Shock 1 and Mankind Divided not under Play
>Deadly Shadows not under Avoid

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This is flawed argumentation. Company went bankrupt therefore the amazing product they made was actually bad.

EA which is a shitstain, and Bioware with their ME milking is actually really fucking great because they are doing well financially. KYS

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Move Stalker SoC up and Thief 2 down and it would be perfect.

Yeah, but take, say, the derelict/exploring the space jockey ship sequence from Alien Isolation. That segment was extremely scripted/gamey/cutscene heavy, and it was still more immersive than most immersive sim levels. All I'm saying is that atmosphere is more important than mechanics for making the player forget they are playing a game

System Shock and System Shock 2 were complete and utter failures (System SHock 2 sold less than 60k copies after nearly a year after release), so my point still stands.

And Thief games were modest successes, not hug successes.

No reason at all for Mankind Divided to be in avoid, it's very similar to its predecessor and a good game that got a bad rap here for largely idiotic reasons (eg Yea Forums politics). Well, it kind of sucked that the main story arc was inconsequential bullshit while interesting things were touched upon on the side all the time without leading anywhere, but the gameplay and level design was good enough.

>dishonored 2, bioshock 2 in optional
>while first thief is in play
LMAO

>No reason at all for Mankind Divided to be in avoid

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>This is flawed argumentation.
It's not my argument, it was the argument I replied to, which claimed that Arkane's games are commercially unsuccesful because they were lacking in atmosphere and sond design. Games that nail those things fail all the time, while games that lack them are succesful all the time. It's literally a mindless appeal to popularity.

Switch Arx with Stalker and it's good.

>not posting the updated image

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SS2 probably sold bad becausew of how hard it would be to market it at the time:
youtube.com/watch?v=2j7QU6mVPys
A survival horror game would sell just fine now because of streamers/youtubers acting as grass roots marketing

Max Pain 2 pr Metroid Prime 2?

Based.

Every single comparison image made in this style is utter shit without fail

>Yeah, but take, say, the derelict/exploring the space jockey ship sequence from Alien Isolation. That segment was extremely scripted/gamey/cutscene heavy, and it was still more immersive than most immersive sim levels.
No offense, but I think you just don't like the immersive sim genre. Why would you complain about a lack of cutscenes in immersive sims, when that's a fundamental aspect of how those games are designed?

>All I'm saying is that atmosphere is more important than mechanics for making the player forget they are playing a game
You not liking the atmosphere of immersive sims is entirely subjective though.

It's almost as if Mankind Divided is an entirely different game than Human Revolution

I thought we just agreed that what makes people immersed was subjective lol. I personally disagree, I played Alien Isolation, dead space and RE4. I enjoyed all these games, I was captivated by the atmosphere and tension, but I didn't feel like I was inside the game truly.
It's like watching a really captivating and atmospheric movie, it's immersive in a way, but it's immersive in a different way immersive sims are. It's an immersion that relies on visuals, sounds and scripts to create tension and guide the player/spectator to look at the things you want them to look and feel the things you want them to feel.

Immersive sims are immersive through their interactivity. They are immersive literally in a "simulation" sense. Because you feel like you are there, doing these things, and in order to achieve that you require a degree of freedom and player agency, as well as strong cohesion.

I don't know if we can agree that there a different ways and sorts of immersion in media, and some people may prefer one over the other, but to me what you describe is immersive in a spectator sense rather than a player sense.

I prefer IW because HR's story and world feel nothing like Deus Ex, but this image is full of shit.
>Thief-inspired stealth system based on light/darkness levels, sound propagation and situational awareness.
This is false, light and darkness don't affect DXIW's stealth.
>Augmentations force long lasting choices on how to upgrade their character.
Except there are so many aug cannisters that you can always change your mind about a biomod and install something else.

They are extremely similar though.

>immersive sim list
>nearly half the games on the list aren't immersive sims

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>It's almost as if Mankind Divided is an entirely different game than Human Revolution
Not when it comes to game mechanics. MD is just HR with some minor additions. Oh, I guess they did finally include the ability to grab ledges, a feature that Invisible War had nearly 20 years ago. Whoop di doo.

Really bad trailer, but the music is still hype.

>This is false, light and darkness don't affect DXIW's stealth.
They absolutely do, just like in the original DX. Of course, it's nowhere near as refined as Thief, but it's the same principle.

>Except there are so many aug cannisters that you can always change your mind about a biomod and install something else.
Hardly. Theree is a limited quantity of biomods in the game. You can afford to change your mind maybe once or twice on a playthrough, but you make it sound like you can switch out augs on the fly. That's not rmeotely the case.

Is stalker really an immersive sim? I absolutely loved the shit out of this series and consider them my favorite first person shooters, but I never made a connection with deus ex, thief, ss2 etc

They are in the same way that Bethesda games have been since Morrowind. The classification is incredibly loose.

Even Skyrim is an immersive sim you absolute mong

Bioshocks are not immersive sims, they're FPS.

Bloodlines also isn't one, it's just an RPG that happens to be first-person

Haven't played Pathologic, but I don't think it's an immersive sim either, just another RPG to happens to be first-person.

Human Revolution and Mankind Divided aren't immersive sims. They completely ditch the design philosophy of the original DX and instead take more inspiration from games like MGS and GEars of War.

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Unlike DX1 and Thief, DXIW has almost no pitch black shadows, so even if there's any shadow system in it, you never get to utilize it. The stealth is kinda screwed anyways, because even when crouching you make footstep noises and nonlethal takedowns make noise too if you have no strength aug, so if you want to actually play the game sneakily, you need to install two biomods.
And yes, there's too much biomod cannisters in the game, keep in mind that DXIW is much shorter than DX1.

You are beyond retardation my good friend

>best immersive sim
Prey

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Because "SHODAN", "Citadel" etc. meant nothing to me, emotionally. It was only after I played the first game that I was able to assign to them a specific response. How do you not get that?

>Don't jump right into SS2, the impact will be lost.

Bullshit. To me, the game was so intense precisely because I had zero idea who or what I am against, thanks to not having played the first game until after SS2.

>no actual rebuttal

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But how do you know for certain that you would have enjoyed the game less if you had played SS1 before?

thiefbabies are casuals.

>SS2's ending
I really hate SHODAN's acting all of the time as a tsundere AI that dislikes humans, it feels so forced and one dimensional. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be evil, but the way she needs to tell you that you're a piece of shit constantly gets a bit tiresome
Also SS2's choices for weapons are just retarded since standard weapons are basically better in every aspect posible (more ammo, more damage to most enemies, you find them earlier...). I hope they solve some of these problems with SS3 (if it ever gets released)

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For example, try to imagine experiencing THAT scene without being familiar with SS1. Or hearing her talk to you for the first time. It was a horrible, yet wonderful confusion.

>gets a bit tiresome
See this is where you and I differ. You get annoyed and tired of it, whilst I get increasingly sexually aroused and motivated to play more.

As for your second point, it's kind of a yes and no, SS2 w eapons are kinda weird I'll agree but standards are not better in every aspect. If you go psychic just enough for the energy power for example, the laser pistol is brilliant and as essentially infinite ammo. If you go exotics you get the crystal which while being arguably not worth it because of how insane the basic wrench is, remains an absurdly broken weapon that can easily wipe everything besides shodan herself.

>And yes, there's too much biomod cannisters in the game

If you exhaust all the content in IW, do every side quest, etc. you can have 25 regular biomods and 16 black market biomods. Regular and black market biomods are not interchangeable.

There are 5 different body parts that can hold augmentations, and you need 3 mods to max out one augmentation, so 15 to fully upgrade your body. That mans you don't even get enough biomods to do even just a single full "respec".

Again, you make it sound like it's something like FF7's Materia, where you can freely swap augs in and out. That's absolutely not the case. You have to be mindful of what augs to take.

I dont' like the biomod system and think it's a downgrade from DX1's system, but it's still superior to the system in HR, where you can max everything with ease.

Butting into your conversation as someone who played SS2 first, and yes, maybe I would've enjoyed it more with ss1 I will never know, but the contrary is true too. Those who played ss1 first will never know either.
The bottom line is it seems people enjoy the living shit out of SS2 regardless.

as says, THAT scene (I'm just guessing we mean the same one) made me lose my shit so hard but felt so awesome at the same time that I literally reloaded to play go through it a second time

Energy weapons are really strong, especially if you have several you can switch between. Rapier is the best thing ever in any video game.
Exotic is pretty lacklustre though, and I imagine doing full psi will be annoying when you have to scrounge for hypos.
But speeding around at 400 mph whacking everything at boosted strength makes up for any flaws.

imagine thinking iw is better than hr and md.

Also the way SS2 spams enemies constantly after a certain point just breaks the inmension a lot.
The first Hybrid you find makes you shit your pants, but when you're fighting against a whole group of them for the 900000 time most of the tension and terror to the unknown is gone. I would make enemies stronger but a bit less common in the sequel

If crazy AIs turn you on I guess I can't argue with that senpai

I didn't upgrade any of my PSI abilities on my run, so I dunno if they can work as a main weapon, but heavy and exotic weapons are just not worth it in any way as a main choice for damage imo

>assault rifle
zoom zoom

>I really hate SHODAN's acting all of the time as a tsundere AI that dislikes humans
>tsundere

Anime has rotten your brain.

>immersive sim
Stop that

Schau dich an Hacker, du erbärmliche Kreatur aus Fleisch und Knochen, die keuchend und schwitzend durch meine Korridore rennt...

>and I imagine doing full psy will be annoying when you have to scrounge for hypos
>I didn't upgrade any of my PSI abilities on my run, so I dunno if they can work as a main weapon

It's not. it's INSANE. I did it in impossible, so highest price on the hypos. Sure at the start I had to be a tiny bit conservative, but the thing with psy is the strongest powers are in the first three tiers, so they are also the cheapest. If you explore and hack before buying, you will NEVER run out and the run can be absolutely insane I swear boosted agi boosted strenght running like a maniac so fast you overshoot doors and corridors and if you accidentally jump expect fall damage, but that's okay because psy have infinite healing and also here I am one shotting everything with a wrench.

Psy is the shit dudes, trust me.

I don't watch anime, I just think that term describes SHODAN pretty well

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full psi is easy because there are plenty of psi hypos lying around, and if not, then you can buy plenty with all the nanites you'll be saving from not using weapons that deteriorate and using ammo

Contrarianism at its worst. IW is rotten and only moderately enjoyable played guns blazing. MD is incredible and only let down by its story elements.

psi is easy mode
once you get invisibility you have won the game

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when the hell does she go deredere

It really is.
>infinite power for the power armor and implants
>agi boost for insane speed
>str boost + melee boost will have you one shot everything with a wrench
>you can literally just run through everything invisible
>you can pay like 5 psy points to heal 30 hp and therefore have essentially infinite healing
>you can make hack 10 times easier
>you can save the inventory space on the radiation armor because some powers will protect you from it

It's genuinely the most busted thing in the game. I remember reading somewhere psy was hard so I thought doing it in impossible would be a challenge but it turned out to feel like I was actually just straight up cheating

What went wrong?

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Body of the Many is the highlight of a psi-only playthrough, you get to approach it in any way you want and all the ways are overpowered.

>Make enemies fight each other while you sit back and relax
>Turn invisible and run past whatever you don't want to deal with
>or just buff yourself up with everything at once and punch through the toughest enemies in the game at the speed of light

>If you explore and hack before buying, you will NEVER run out and the run can be absolutely insane I swear boosted agi boosted strenght running like a maniac so fast you overshoot doors and corridors and if you accidentally jump expect fall damage, but that's okay because psy have infinite healing and also here I am one shotting everything with a wrench.
This is super fun yes, it is what I alluded to in my post. But that isn't full psi, that is a melee build.

change wrench with psi amp melee, boom

Don't forget:

>cast fire shield
>cast invisibility
>your fire shield damages any enemies that you walk by while your invisibility remains intact

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>system shock 2
>very hard
lmao dude

How is it not very hard?

I think Bioshock is a lot harder, especially on the harder difficulties.

bioshock is "harder" because everything is a bullet sponge on survivor

SS2 is one of these games that can be hard or punishing at first when you have no idea what you are doing. But the moment you do it is so very breakable that it's easy to forget there was any difficulty to begin with

what's the status on SS3?

It came out 2 years ago under the name "Prey"

no i meant the sequel to ss2 not arkane's interpretation of it

It's only considered hard by the people who reach the brain of the many with a bad build and insufficient supplies to actually beat the game. After the first playthrough, you know what's coming.

>the model mods for SS2 do a perfect job of staying true to the original aesthetic
So did you post a wrong pic there? Post the midwife while you're at it, by the way.

fuck off reddit

The SS2 model mods demonstrate why it doesn't matter what Nightdive does with their SS1 remake: so long as it looks vaguely better, people are going to prefer it to the original.

mmmmmmmm boobies

>people
You've misspelled "braindead graphics whores".

the original prey wasn't that great.

Not him but rebirth is shit.
The pipe and shotgun hybrids are more clearly told apart in vanilla, and the humanoid models have different proportions and they end up looking like midgets with the mod.
The only enemy who truly looks like shit in vanilla is the annelid worm which is like 2 triangles and the mod doesnt even remodel that.
Otherwise the low poly models suit the enemies and makes them scarier
The tacticool weapons mod is pretty good though

Bioshock Infinite's siren and escort mission without cheese are harder than anything in SS2. And I've played both several times. I never said it was "good difficulty," but it is still much more difficult

thiefcucks need to dilate.

>when Med Sci kicks in
No amount of speed will give you that big of a rush like sprinting through the corridors and hearing all the mobs yelling "DIE, DIE, DIEEEEEE!!!!!!!!". Love you Looking Glass Studios, you were truly ahead of your time and it's fucking tragic how you ended.

It's not, don't listen to contrarians.

It ain't bad but SS1 being better is very recent Yea Forums contrarianism. SS1 has never been considered better than SS2 for the now 20 years that they've been released.
I think the SS1 remake has renewed interest in the first game, which it is arguably now the more talked about game in the series, something that historically has never happened before this point in time.

Yet still nothing compared to EA/Bethesda.

Bethesda doing a lot of these set a precedence, but more importantly there's a key difference that you are fundamentally too retarded to understand.

It was the release of the Enhanced Edition in 2015 that renewed interest. It's not contrarianism either. Is it so hard to believe certain people prefer the game when the two are so completely different?

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this

thiefcucks are delusional.

I think you posted this three times in the same thread, so here's a reply