It's controls and level design have yet to be surpassed

you have triple jumps and that forward slide move

Yeah but your acceleration is shit and you can't turn around on a dime while walking slowly.

acceleration is fine. there are lots of ways to move about if you're good enough

The only thing that's yet to be surpassed is the amount of cock nintendo puts in your ass

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The only game that is impressive for speedruns

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Acceleration is only fine when you're moving quickly, until you gain speed it's a chicken and egg issue. Also yeah there are lots of ways to move about but those ways don't include turning around on a dime while walking slowly. A very basic and essential feature. "You just have to be good enough not to need it" is not an argument, because it's not about whether you need it or not, it's about the impression the movement system gives off throughout the whole experience, from learning it for the first time to being good at it. It's fine for doing complex movements to take time to understand, but doing simple movements should be incredibly easy to pick up, so easy it feels natural, so easy it feels like you already know it just by being a person, so easy that as soon as you pick up the controller you feel like you ARE mario, that is the POINT of a PLAYER CHARACTER. And not being able to do something as basic as turning around on a dime while walking slowly really breaks that immersion.

why would you ever be walking slowly

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Immersion

>controls

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Sunshine > Odyssey > 64
64 is so fucking overrated.

Controls yes, level design no.

Mario 64 has crap level design

>immersive mario

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>so shitty it can be beaten in under 5 minutes
youtube.com/watch?v=iUt840BUOYA
defend this 64fags

Immersion is a crucial feature of any game. It's not something specific to any particular genre, it's a basic dimension of game design.

We even feel some immersion when playing something as symbolic and low-tech as chess, we talk about the pieces in terms of actual royal offices.

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>shit is a function of speed

Retard alert

>>shit is a function of speed
>Retard alert
t. never been to taco bell

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I can't disagree properly until you've rigorously given me the semantics of immersion in video games (mario)

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> we call chess pieces terms for royal offices for immersion

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wasn't much of an issue for but ok, sure. thats just one facet of mario's moves though. all other basic things are pretty easy to execute

i-i-cant, i guess you're the winner.

/thread

we could have had a forest stage but nooo they had to have 2 stupid waterworlds that look exactly the same with an overrated song.

Yeah, that's true, but there are little kinks here and there that periodically break immersion. Not being able to turn while walking slowly is one of them, another one is getting stuck on the edges of surfaces and vibrating for awhile, the camera's a little off-kilter too.

It's true though, calling the chess pieces by the names of royal offices portrays a story. Chess does in fact have a plot. It's a very basic plot. The story of chess is about two warring nations and that's it, that's the whole damn plot. But it's still a plot. We still identify with the pieces on some level when we move them, or when they're captured by the opponent. There is some level at which we mentally experience them as tiny men. That's immersion.

Well damn, I read a few academic papers on this for my game design classes, if only I still had the links to them. Pretty much to have immersion you have to have something you control in some way, the control latency has to compete with the latency of the setting updating state, and the way you control the thing you control has to make sense to our cerebral body maps and feel seamless. If all these requirements are met the player can bond with the player character in such a way as to experience "being" the player character, and talking about things that happen to the player character in terms of "I" or "me" or "my guy." At that point, the game has achieved immersion to some extent.

>turning around on a dime while walking slowly is an essential feature
Sunshine did this. 64's Mario is designed around being weighty and powerful, so he doesn't do snap 180 degree turn around on the ground like you're playing some PC FPS. The slight bit of delay of the camera reorienting itself behind Mario again is crucial and pleasurable when, for instance, doing 180 degree side somersaults. Mario games are designed around facing and running forward.

>Walking slowly and turning around is the immersion Mario experience
Nope. The immersion Mario experience is moving around quickly and doing drastic 180 degree turns for aerial ascendancy (wall jumps). Turning around abruptly while walking slowly is actually anti-immersive if you think about how unnatural that is in real life. This isn't a horror game where some noise plays behind Mario and you have to see what's behind him. You're supposed to be seeing what's in front of Mario. YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY, user.

Non-issue.

>Turning around abruptly while walking slowly is actually anti-immersive if you think about how unnatural that is in real life.
Anti-realistic, maybe. Anti-immersive, no, I don't think so. Basic principle of immersion, movement needs to be responsive. As long as we're talking about basic techniques that intuitively shouldn't be difficult, you need to be able to effortlessly make your character do what you intend for them to do. Otherwise you can't adapt your spatial reasoning skills to their virtual world, or your ability to adapt it experiences brief outages. If you can't suspend disbelief and imagine yourself in their nonexistent body, there's no immersion, realism be damned.

>level design have yet to be surpassed.

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agreed but I still wouldn't call it's movement bad

It's hard to say whether Sunshine surpassed the controls in 64 when both controls are perfect movement design and differ from one another. I'd argue 64's controls are perfectly built around its worlds, and like-wise for Sunshine.
Well we have a difference of opinion here on what achieving and keeping high immersion is in a Mario game. If you want to purposely jank the movement of the camera and/or Mario to produce ugly / anti-immersion that's on you. I don't play Mario games poorly. My opinion is that Mario is based on immersion of speed, not immersion of walking (or in this case walking turnarounds). To build momentum reversing your direction makes sense to be discouraged. That's one of the key designs in these games in how it locks Mario's airspace in dives or triple jumping.

Turning around immediately and jumping on a dime fundamentally changes the game; it turns it into Super Mario Sunshine. Doing what you want means the player can effortlessly side somersault with the catch that you have to delay your jump if you want to regularly jump. I don't consider Sunshine more immersive than 64 for back-turning. Back-turning implies mistakes just like in racing games.

meant to write: "one of the key designs in these games is how it locks Mario's airspace into forward movements, such as in a dive or to initiate triple jumping".

I’ll give you controls, but half of Mario 64’s levels range from mediocre to shit

That's interesting.

By that definition Mario 64 seems like the gold-standard of immersion though. It's subjective. The controls feel intuitive and responsive, especially for such an ancient game. You can even use the camera-man to manipulate Mario.

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God damn I'm not a vidya collector at all but I would unironically love to have a seal copy of Mario 64. The amount of nostalgia (not soul you zoomer cucks) it gives me is akin to seeing a childhood photo. Mario 64 is the only game I can vividly remember playing for the first time. I remember getting a snes with my family but mario 64 was just fucking magical to me.

>Odyssey is what you get when mechanics are the best in the series but the level design is the worst
>Galaxy is what you get with the worst mechanics but the best level design
>64 is when you have balance good (but not the best) mechanics and level design
> Sunshine is what you get with the 2nd best mechanics in the series and the 2nd worst level design in the series
>3D World is what you get with the 2nd worst mechanics in the series, but 2nd best level design in the series (If we count Galaxy 1&2 as one game)
So in terms of prioritizing level design it goes like this from best to worst
>Galaxy 1&2
>3d World
>64
>Sunshine
>Odyssey
In terms of prioritizing mechanics from best to worst, it goes like this,
>Odyssey
>Sunshine
>64
>3D World
> Galaxy

Both Odssdssy and especially sunshine have improved controls and level design over 64.

64's controls and movement physics suck. As and note, acceleration is fucked, it takes mario l;ike a full 2 seconds to from standing to normal moement speed. Turning is similarly shit, with an absurd turn radius, you can try to make a hard right turn and mario will almost walk in a circle. You can't even turn around while standing since mario will move. In Odsssey, mario is noticably more responsive. There's still some acceleration and turning iffyness but it's far less. Cappy also adds a huge amount of movement complexity that both 64 and sunshine doesn't have. Meanwhile, sunshine has insanely responsive controls and physics, mario accelerates very quickly, he turns near instantly, and jumping feels way better.

In terms of Level design, despite supposedly being a sandbox platformer, 64 has all it's platforming in linear paths or half the time are just straight up overtly linear. In oddsseey, platforming is still really mainly built into paths, but with tons of branching ones and there's some opportunity for breaking these paths with clever custom platforming paths. In Sunshine, there's still a main path or two, but even better then in dossey, there's a TON of platforming tools and geometry all over the levels to the point where you can make up freeform platforming paths across any which way in most worlds.

For example, Bianco Hills, like Bomb-omb battlfield, has a central path through the stage and then spiralling up a tower, but there's also a large village to the left, a wall section with waterwheels, a park area with trees, and a lake with large poles and tightropes, and you can freeily and creatively platform off of and between all of those parts of the maps; wheras in Bomb-omb there's basically fucking nothing.

>I don't play Mario games poorly.
>Back-turning implies mistakes just like in racing games.
It just doesn't make sense to me to evaluate a game's immersion solely from the assumption that the player will be good at the game. Super Mario 64 rewards skilled play with immersion. Immersion should be a given, and should be what facilitates rewarding skilled play with a sense of accomplishment. It should be possible to be immersed even in the mistakes you make; *breaking* immersion shouldn't be used as a deterrent from playing poorly, instead immersion should be *leveraged* as that deterrent.

Consider:
>good immersion already established before skilled play is achieved
"I am Mario. But doing the thing is hard."
>skilled play is achieved
"I, Mario, finally did the thing."
>reward is sense of accomplishment
"I, Mario, am cool for doing the thing. I am the best at jumping around."

Versus:
>controls feel janky before skilled play is achieved
"Mario won't do what I tell him to."
>skilled play is achieved
"Finally Mario is doing what I tell him to."
>reward is good immersion
"After getting halfway through the game I finally feel like I am playing as Mario."

Also consider:
>breaking immersion as deterrent
"When I make Mario go backwards, the camera wigs out and I don't feel like I'm playing as Mario anymore, so I guess I shouldn't make Mario go backwards."

Versus:
>leveraging immersion as deterrent
"When I, Mario, go backwards, I tend to die or take damage, because (insert level design related reason here e.g something is chasing me or something), so I guess I shouldn't go backwards."

Also even when I play the game properly instead of nitpick at rarely used controls I still feel like the controls are janky as fuck. Good controls for the N64 but janky as fuck by modern standards.

was there a forest stage planned or is that just something you want?

ALso Odssey and ESPECIALLY sunshine do a WAY better job then 64 in terms of making the levels feel like real places.

No, see Level design:
Oddseey = Sunshine > 64

Movement physics:
Sunshine > Oddsssey > 64

Movement complexity:
Odsseey >>> Sunshine = 64

Challenge:
64 > Odsseey > Sunshine

Content/length
64 = Odesssy > Sunshine
(Odssey techbnically is much longer then 64 but only because of the stupid amount of moons)

Impressiveness for their time of release:
64 > Oddesssy = Sunshine

I agree completely

>64's controls and movement physics suck

Compared to what?

BS, Sunshine has better level design and more challenge than Odyssey. Odyssey is one of the easiest games I have ever played in my life.

I agree with you but mario 64 is the better game from a purely fun standpoint followed by sunshine. Odyssey is fun but I found it far too easy. I know these games are meant for kids but man was it absurdly easy at times...and on top of that they include a mode that's even easier. Solid 8/10 but I wouldnt say it's a must play game at all

Nah, Fluud is too much of a crutch.

If sunshine had some sort of rank system to enocurage players to minimize fluud use and to make creative platforming paths to optimize times to complete missions, then I think people would apperciate it way more, but it's no suprise people think the game sucks as a platofrmer as of now even if it's level design is the best just because of how much fludd trivalizes platforming.

Odsessy and Sunshine, for starters/.

64's speed hasn't been touched. It still the fastest to move around in which is what makes it the best. Flood is slow and Odssey Mario is floaty. 64's level design can be improved if they made a pure linear 3D platformer that focused on movement and reactions (like the levels without flood in sunshine). Though to a certain degree there is more to break and try out in more open maps.

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IDK man, I find it hard to believe people died more in Odyssey than in Sunshine. Fludd may trivialize platforming, but there are still a multitude of ways to fail a mission in sunshine and there are some difficulty spikes in there even if the game isn't that difficult overall. It's almost hard to die in Odyssey imho.

>level design
>Wet Dry World

I like how they put all these little jumping puzzles in the game, and you can just long-jump right over them.
By far the most broken mechanic in the game

This thread just shows how terrible people are at 64. Have to laugh at them conplaining about his slow sprint or turning.

you fucking moron, being bad has nothing to do with how the game controls or how mario moves. That's the fucking problem, no matter how much you git gud the shit physics always holds you back

>64 is the better game from a purely fun standpoint
this isn't a point, this is an opinion you hold. This idea of "from a purely fun standpoint" doesn't exist because we're all here to enjoy games. I agree that 64 is fun, but as somebody who put lots of hours into each, I fail to see how odyssey is anything but a net improvement on 64's fun.

Being bad at a game will definitely hamper your immersion. While it is a brand new criticism from all that I've seen discussed on this game, the problem with what you are criticizing is that it would damage the physics engine (read: momentum-based movement) and also, surprisingly, your immersion in following Mario.

>"I guess I shouldn't make Mario go backwards."
Sort-of. You really want to *avoid* moving in a backwards pattern.

1. Turning around in third person cuts off visual information of what is ahead of the player. This can be seen fairly easily in 64, but in Sunshine when you redirect Mario to run at the camera it becomes very obvious. In fact, I just messed around now with 64 and Sunshine and when you waterslide going at the camera Mario will go completely out-of-view. The camera is supposed to follow after Mario, not the opposite. 64 and Sunshine are designed that way.

2. Controlling Mario or any character is always easier and more sensible done from a behind-the-back perspective than at an angle or facing the camera the opposite direction from where you are moving.

3. Note: 64 and Sunshine will softly / naturally re-direct the camera behind Mario if you veer outside a certain distance of a centered Mario/Camera sync.

One unique situation where its up to user opinion / preference on moving backwards is during boss fights. If the camera is automatically locked onto a boss then the user can do backwards movement and keep the boss in view. If the camera is free than the boss will routinely get out-of-view and allow the player to better see where they are going.

They don't hold you back, they are just anoither challenge to overcome.,64 is very momentum-based, in a way it's a better 3D Sonic game than any of the actual 3D Sonics.

>acceleration is fucked, it takes mario l;ike a full 2 seconds to from standing to normal moement speed.
Mario is heavy in 64, so he takes longer to accelerate. His weight corresponds to his speed; it makes him feel more powerful when he runs, long jumps, jump kicks, etc.
>Turning is similarly shit with absurd turning radius
Mario in 64 is not designed around being nimble. 64 is about boldness and power. Mario = strong force by weight and strong camera centering / syncing.
>64 sandbox platformer
64 is designed around being able to get around the course quickly without feeling like the course is too big to reach the other side. It accomplishes this with a stages tending to evenly center around a point (i.e. mountain), so that your distance never outmatches your movement speed.

Odyssey's level design is far too large for Mario's new physics engine. Flying around with a wingcap or sliding up a hill has a far more enjoyable and complex movement on 64's stages of "nothingness" than rolling, running as Lion, or gliding as whatever that winged possesable creature is called on flat expanses of terrain in Odyssey.

>Cappy has movement complexity 64 and Sunshine don't have
Not true. Bounce jumping off at a hat = double jumping. That actually slows the game down and makes it less complex since maneuvering more in the air is slower and has a smaller moveset than on the ground. A lot of Odyssey's controls were compartmentalized in negative ways (e.g.. diving kills momentum now, hat throwing requires motion controls)

>sunshine jumping feels way better
It seems like you prefer lighter nimbler more touch-sensitive characters. I think 64 and Sunshine perfected 3D movement.

>It's controls and level design have yet to be surpassed.
Do you really think the N64 controller is the pinnacle of design?
Yikes

It's a moderately polished tech demo that is only praised because it's mario
The fact that people aspire to it in the terms of designing their games is a fucking shame

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Also the DS port shits all over it in terms of quality

>controls have yet to be surpassed
>n64 joystick
L O L
O O
L O L

ITT: Retards can't stop smashing the joystick back and fort

>Someone: SM64's controls are shit!
>Speedrunner: I'm about to ruin this contrarian's entire career

youtu.be/iI8Giq7zQDk

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Sped that spends a decade playing a shit game is better at using suboptimal controls than anyone just playing games.
You showed everyone, user.

I'm sorry you're so shit at video games. Mario 64 controls like a charm if you have more than 2 brain cells.

It's not good anymore because of the controls and level design.
It's good because of its simplicity and exploration. You didn't have to collect a bunch of shit and craft something new, just to fight the new boss.

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Eat my dick faggot, if I wanted 120 stars I would go dig my copy out of the attic.
Just because you're permanently crippled that daddy slapped mommy and you didn't get to see him until your 28th birthday doesn't mean you have to never move on from the game you played while they screamed at eachother.

>controls
this would be true if the game wasn't limited by the hardware it was designed for, as it stands, not having analog movement is one of the biggest factors of its aging.

>level design
they literally stop holding up halfway through the game.

Still great though, Odyssey ties with it and Galaxy 2 is better.

>not having analog movement

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>the controls being shit is a challenge

By that logic a game with a shitty camera that constantly clips into walls is good because the camera mqkes it more challenging.

>it makes him feel more powerful when he runs, long jumps, jump kicks, etc.

What the fuck does this even mean, power has nothing to do with running or jumping. Yeah, he feels heavy, way fucking heavier then he should be.

Damn, that happened to cheese? I'm not surprised he's gay

Ah yes, I sure love not being able to kick while I'm going fast, and not being able to dive when I'm going slow, truly a masterfully crafted experience.

Mario galaxy 2? You mean that one expansion pack they released for full price?

Also I guess you only ever played the ds release, cause the not-shit version has analog controls

>acceleration is fucked, it takes mario l;ike a full 2 seconds to from standing to normal moement speed.
Yeah, because that's the skill of it. You can't just spam inputs and get a desired outcome. You actually have need to space and time your jumps.

Not even reading the rest.

see
>By that logic a game with a shitty camera that constantly clips into walls is good because the camera mqkes it more challenging.

"I-IT'S PART OF THE CHALLENGE" isn't a fucking excuse. If they wanted to make sure the platforming was skill based and required precision, then they should fucking design the stages that way, not fucking cripple you with shit controls.

Spyro surpassed them both

This argument works under the assumption that the controls are inherently bad. So I can't argue against it. I can't argue against a presumption.

you're mentally retarded. to think spyro's movement holds a candle to any mario game is just laughable.

Spyro's gestion of speed and reliance on exploration make it miles ahead of anything mario has ever done.

too bad actual platforming challenge is virtually non-existent. hardly a worthy trade-off.

Heh, I'd say it is, the only time 3d mario had actual platforming that was cleverly contextualized in a level was in mario sunshine, with levels like rico harbor, and that game was still riddled with issues.

Okay grandpa. Have fun killing yourself with a rusty shovel because that is the only tool your family can afford besides your dad who was only fucked by your mom to get back at her ex boyfriend and his receding hairline

retard alert

It's all right user, let it all out.