Why was this the only honest attempt at a D&D game?

It’s the only edition that translates reasonably well into video game form.

I'd give my left nut for a 5e TOEE

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There is a pool of radiance module recreation on Neverwinter Nights (1)

Neverwinter nights was 3.0, the expansion was 3.5. To the point that you can do character builds in those engines, even if it is missing some feats/spells.

Larian seems hellbent on shitting on BG1 and 2 fans. THAC0 hasn't been in a PC RPG since 2000 anyways.

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My uncle bought this for me. I was bored to tears.

4e would work pretty well with that, but it was a contentious edition even before the guy in charge of the tabletop / online integration project committed a murder-suicide.

Those are some of the best known crpgs ever, retard.

>Disgaea and FFT friends spouting about their games in a thread
>bring up Krynn series
>crickets
I dunno user.

Aren't those SRPGs, though?

I liked Ravenloft.

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Did you bring your dudes all the way through to Stone Prophet?

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More like because it was made by Troika and the battle system is quite amazing for 3.5. Also the freedom of ways to resolve problems.

Could you explain further I've heard none of this before about a murder suicide

I wish there was a high-budget, 3.5e baed ravenloft game

>be Troika
>release well designed game system
>riddle it with bugs and unpolished graphics
>die
Goddamn it why did it have to be this way.

you mean
>do it again
>and again
>die

Troika was like Obsidian. Praised shit.

>it has the most accurate ruleset and already proved you don't have to neuter the rules for a good experience in video games
Vanilla ToEE is also a low level campaign with a pretty damn neutered approach, of course it works better than those games in that sense when you have less than half of the full extent of the system to work with.
The good thing about ToEE is that it was designed on a turn based system to begin with, so there was absolutely no need to redesign most stuff to beging with, granted that again, given the fact that the campaign was low level, you also didn't have to worry about a lot of other things, especially for spellcasters, that could make things a bit more complex.
Not to mention that Vanilla ToEE also got rid of tons of stuff like certain races or spells like Wall of Fire, it took until Circle of Eight and Temple+ were finished to integrated those things and make ToEE the beast it is today, do not forget that.
Only 30+ years old neckbeards have a chance at knowing those games, don't kid yourself, it's a miracle the average player goes beyond BG games nowadays.
Ravenloft games are a real mixed bag, they're horrible to play and they didn't really implement Ravenloft's setting and possibilities well.
On the other hand they have amazing sprite works and tons of atmosphere, Menzoberranzan and Stone Prophet ooze charm despite being really mediocre in the gameplay department.
I also wish more CRPGs were written like those, the fact that they keep dialogue choices down to the most effective choices possible instead of drowning you in pointless options that do nothing but add le quirky drama club dialogue is really something lost to time.

>lolsorandumb aspects like throwing tables at people
I'm not going to argue one way or another about what system rules will make for a better game. However getting into funny shenanigans in fantasy has been a thing for a long, long time. Monty Python and the Holy Grail is over 40 years old now. Discworld as a series started over 35 years ago. Merry and Pippin and Tom Bombadil were part of Lord of the Rings. Prankster fairies predate Shakespeare. Trickster gods were part of many mythologies.

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Certainly! One of the big Wizards of the Coast had planned for 4e was a D&D Beyond-esque program that could serve not only as a player / DM reference guide, but also as a game platform designed to let people play together remotely and streamline things for the DM for ease of use. Unfortunately, Joseph Batten, the man they placed in charge of the project, was having marital problems with his wife, to the point that she took out a restraining order against him. A week later, he found her in a parking lot, shot her several times, and then turned his gun on himself. In the wake of such a grisly event, the project was cancelled.

And out of all of those, the only good part was Discworld. About a quarter of the time. Fuck the Vymes books.

That's a sad story. To think of one marriage hadn't failed 4E might be more fondly remembered. At least Pathfinder 2 E is out soon

Vimes books were fine. Only his last few books were stinkers and his mind was degenerating to the point he couldn't even write himself anymore by then.

>Why was this the only honest attempt at a D&D game?

"only"

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I got used to Menzo and Stone Prophet once I wrapped my head around the idea of moving with the mouse and using spacebar to cycle between interfacing and moving.

Strahd's Possession has aged like milk though, as enemies would continue to walk around your characters and in and out of range during combat. Makes it a really unenjoyable experience. Which is a shame, because the setting is awesome.

>Vanilla ToEE is also a low level campaign with a pretty damn neutered approach

What's neutered about it? It had a level cap of 10, which is pretty normal for a D&D game. Baldur's Gate had a level cap of 7/8, if I recall correctly.

>Only his last few books were stinkers
He'd said he wanted to give Vimes a retirement but also wanted to retire his old enemies and defang them and soften them so that everyone could have grace in retirement. And then he kept writing because he just couldn't stop and made Unseen Academicals a book I can't even begin ot read because it's not him, just a ghost.

I disagree. Only Guards! Guards! was left unmolested but every other Vimes book has the typical Discoworld setup, setting, and it all culminates in showing off how tough and rugged and smart Vimes is instead of something interesting. Time travel, war, dwarves, werewolves, nope, here's Vimes complaining.

But I really liked Carrot so I'm probably just salty he was usurped as the MC.

> tough and rugged and smart Vimes is
Men at arms shows that he's not, but carrot is the mary sue of the story he won't take charge of.
The watch stories are just "lol, carrot, but he won't take the heros mantle so it falls onto vimes, who it doens't fit well but does its best.

Ah, but Carrot is the one who gets mortally wounded. Carrot's is the person who is wrong, gets into unecessary trouble and has to learn a lesson from his mistake.

The real Mary Sue is actually Vimes.

This has the best turn based combat system of any game I've ever played. It's a shame that everything else surrounding it is pretty subpar.

>IE and beyond crpg babies
SSI crpgs are the golden standard and still haven't been beat

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Based.

>The real Mary Sue is actually Vimes.
In the long game, yeah, I can't argue that.

Unseen isn't even the worst one bad as it is.
Science of the Disc Judgement Day reads like it was ghostwritten by a vastly inferior writer.
Snuff's goblin screeds are pretty out there too with utilitarian arguments about their singing giving their life value.

How much do you start building the character you make in these games into something that is yours emergent from what is directly expressed in the game? I always end up running with mine and making elaborate stories about them

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Look up Knights of the Chalice.

Well it's a steady decline. My grandfather went form not recognizing me to not recognizing my mother to not recognizing himself.

imagionationlet here
my character is 18STR

>Science of the Disc Judgement Day
I did not even know that was as thing. Thank you for warning me. I liked the first science of the discworld books, but the others I'd much have preferred to just read the science part and the discword/roundworld felt contrived.

Are they Fezzik-tier "I don't even exercise" strong, or is their strength the result of hard work and determination?

it's a +3 modifier

What about 5e is appealing to you? Admittedly I've only read over the rule books and haven't played it, but it looks like a neutered 3e to me.

>>Disgaea and FFT friends spouting about their games in a thread
>>bring up Krynn series
>>crickets
Disgaea means your friends are zoomers and Krynn series is borderline unplayable without mods even for a fucking old fart like me who played them on release.

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Could be he just wants a competently-designed 5e game so that Sword Coast Legends isn't the only non-mobile D&D game we get this edition.

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I play D&D with my friends now, the game is extremely popular again and literally hordes of people are playing it.

I don't really need a half-assed video game version

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Probably because it was made by a smaller studio, not much fanfare and it was technically challenging via the bugs and crashes.

Strongly disagree.

Pool of Radiance was okay, but personally I thought the two Ravenloft CRPG adaptations, and Menzoberranzan are some of the best implementations in their time. The Krynn games are an interesting point because, quite simply, it's a shame the Dragonlance setting hasn't been adapted in the modern day. It's a wonderful setting.

I can't agree. It might translate into a very generic, and disappointing, MMO, but translating well into something I don't want to play isn't a very compelling concept.

Not him, but I did. Stone Prophet is especially a unique little gem.

Same.

This this and this. No matter how much WRPG fans try to convince themselves that WRPGs are just as good as the real thing, after you've tried actual tabletop DND one time you'll understand that they're just as limited as JRPGs.

>disgaea
>zoomer
zoomers don't have the patience to grind that much and the first game came out on ps2, shut it moron

Well good for you retard. Good for you.

B...BUT MUH CHOICES
MUH IMMERSIVE SIM GAMES
MUH BASED D&D LICENSED GAMES

>The Krynn games are an interesting point because, quite simply, it's a shame the Dragonlance setting hasn't been adapted in the modern day. It's a wonderful setting.
People don't like Kender I guess.
Otherwise the setting seems like it would be a good fit for a videogame franchise because you have a linear structure already to work from
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DL_series#The_DL_Modules.

Just build your engine then churn out content based on what's already there.

>nitpicking
Point is they're too young to have the patience to play a game that literally requires you to read dialog from a printed book instead of from the screen. And that's just the beginning of the UI quirks and limitations you'll find in those old Gold Box games.

I never saw the problem with them. They mostly turned out the way they were due to issues with using, "Hobbit" wasn't it? So instead of modern ideas of halflings, or what have you, they turned out as just . . . people. Pointy eared, and very short, but no furry feet or oddly porportioned legs/arms/bodies as you often see in Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings.

Was pointy eared, short but otherwise perfectly normal Human bodies with a fairly defined lore that off putting?

Agreed, I'm honestly surprised more people don't realize this.
A GM has infinite flexibility to adapt a narrative based on player decisions, a videogame never does. Either you have a gameplay system with some flexibility, that is still a system to game; or you have "branching" which typically amounts to just needing to play the game multiple times to see all the narratives and outcomes written for the game.

>Immune to fear
>kleptomania
>racial skill is taunt
Kender seem basically designed to be annoying. I never had a problem but I can see why.

>, after you've tried actual tabletop DND one time you'll understand that they're just as limited as JRPGs.
Your GM was shit. Tabletop is unlimited, it's all a matter of how much patience your GM has before he says "fuck off outta my house" or how much imagination he's got.

I haven't been very interested in D&D in over 15 years. It simply can't compete with other vidya.

>The SSI Krynn games are also the best D&D games set in the Dragonlance universe.
aren't they ONLY games set there?

D&D, just like multiplayer games sucks if you're partnered with idiots. And it's a lot harder to kick retards midmatch.

Yeah, I don't feel like it's a problem either. I suppose if that's how people see it though, they can do them. I'll just enjoy my old Dragonlance book collection.

Nah, there was that one godawful NES game.

>This this and this. No matter how much WRPG fans try to convince themselves that WRPGs are just as good as the real thing, after you've tried actual tabletop DND one time you'll understand that they're just as limited as JRPGs.
That's not even remotely true. And what wrpg fans have actually made the claim that wrpgs are just as open-ended as tabletop games?

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I fucking wish.

The home computer versions are supposedly passable.

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Congratulations, you've cherry picked FFIX Thief and Summoner and ignored every other JRPG in existence. Hell even within the FF series that summoner bit doesn't remain true as there are examples where they follow the character and defend them, or even where the player gets to play as the summon. Not even getting into incarnations outside of FF. One of my favorites being one that doesn't just summon creatures, but also summons items and tools for their creature summons to use, while having various abilities to manipulate their summons and augment them.

The thief thing is just as bad. Again, you're talking about an entire genre, taking one example. There are WRPGs where the thief can't do the things you note under the WRPG thief. There are JRPGs where the Thief can do everything listed under the WRPG thief.

This is utterly moronic and anyone that buys into this a literal drooling brain damaged ape.

>no WRPG player has EVER claimed WRPGs are as open-ended as tabletop games
>and while i'm at it, let me post butthurt bait
nice try fucko but you need to lurk more

sorry, i think it must've been unclear. what i meant by that was "once you've tried tabletop DND one time, you'll understand that WRPGs are just as limited as JRPGs."

i remember i had a giant in my team that could steamrolled every enemy

Yeah that was the point, user was talking about WRPGs on computer, and specifically citing the tendency of WRPG/CRPG fans to dismiss JRPGs because they lack "choice and consequence" shit like branching dialog and being able to choose to kill NPCs and be evil. But most of the time, WRPGs do nothing more than fake it with simplistic branching dialog and reputation systems.
I'm sure some are better than others (Age of Decadence looks pretty cool) but the point is that it's virtually impossible for a videogame to recreate a GM's ability to adapt a narrative to player decisions.

>No matter how much WRPG fans try to convince themselves that WRPGs are just as good as the real thing
Things that never happened: the post.

Baldur's Gate 2 is a perfect fucking example of a WRPG that gives you the illusion of being a flexible open world where you can do anything but the game is actually mostly linear with some branches and side quests, with every branch of dialog and every major decision set with pre-programmed consequences.

And thief itself is a great example of a videogame trying to implement a tabletop RPG mechanic, trap-finding, in a way that mostly winds up just being tedious. You have to just sit their waiting for your thief to do some skill checks to see if there are any traps before moving anywhere. It adds very little to the game other than giving you a reason to bring a thief. It's mostly just hassle.

Is the combat in BG2 better? Debatable. It's certainly deeper and with SCS mod can be much more challenging. But it's also pretty fucking jank itself with a byzantine array of immunities, arbitrary "save vs." categories, and crudely defined weapon categories. Plenty of fights are just puzzles or gear checks that are completely braindead to win so long as you have the right gear, but might be nigh-impossible otherwise. Combat in BG2 is inconsistent. When it's great, it's way better than most Final Fantasy due to its greater depth, but Final Fantasy games have a fairly consistent combat and certainly there are encounters like Zeromus in Final Fantasy IV that are as fun as anything in Baldur's Gate 2.

troika never really a completed functional game and their games were still better than most

It's not really possible to implement Ravenloft properly in a CRPG.

Maybe not, but what does happen all the fucking time are retards claiming that in order to be a real videogame "RPG" you need to have character creation and branching dialog trees.

i don't claim this
are you reliving ptsd from rpgcodex

WELCOME TO THE D&D WORLD!

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I don't agree with that.
The problem is that Ravenloft's bizarre set of rules doesn't lend itself well to what the typical CRPG fan wants, it's not that it's impossible to implement, it's just that most people would not enjoy a game that pretty much doesn't allow you to do a lot of things that are very basic in other settings.
Honestly, a massive RPG set in the whole demiplane of dread with all its inherent rules would be pretty damn cool, problem is not a lot of people would end up enjoying it.

The point I was making, that seems to have gone right over your head, is that wrpgs obviously can't reach the level of freedom that tabletop games offer. But making the absurd claim that wrpgs are just as restrictive as jrpgs is complete nonsense. There is a middle ground between tabletop levels of freedom and jrpg levels of railroading, and wrpgs fall somewhere between that.

>The thief thing is just as bad. Again, you're talking about an entire genre, taking one example. There are WRPGs where the thief can't do the things you note under the WRPG thief. There are JRPGs where the Thief can do everything listed under the WRPG thief.
Then why can't you name them? I can't think of a single jrpg where a thief can do those thing. You know damn well that thief skills are virtually non-existent in jrpgs. In large part this has to do with jrpgs still using separate battle screens, which makes it almost impossible to implement things like stealth and laying traps before combat.

>Congratulations, you've cherry picked FFIX Thief and Summoner and ignored every other JRPG in existence. Hell even within the FF series that summoner bit doesn't remain true as there are examples where they follow the character and defend them, or even where the player gets to play as the summon.
You know damn well that's not accurate. FF10/12/13 let you summon an actual creature, but only a single creature, and they don't even fight alongside the party, they just replace it. That's an extremely limited and shallow implementation compard to Baldur's Gate, where you can summon multiple creatures who can fight alongside the party, as well as a variety of items.

I don't even know why you'd be in denial about this. Ask yourself this: how many jrpgs let you kill NPCs? Dark Souls...and that's pretty much it. By contrast, almost every WRPG lets you kill NPCs.

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Thac0 has always been a red herring. The games do all the calculation for you and if you can't figure out that Enchanted Red Dragonscale Armor +5 is better protection than a tattered leather tunic, you're probably not allowed out of the house by yourself.

The real issue is just that D&D rules are simpler than necessary. Frankly even modern D&D rules are probably only good for ideas. Computers can handle all kinds of calculations instantly that would be a pain in a tabletop setting. Dark Souls style damage scaling based on stats, for example, use a moderately complex formula that is reasonably intuitive but would be a hassle to have to calculate manually for every possible stat configuration.

user didn't say you think that, he says many people do, and if you disagree then you've literally never been in a wrpg vs jrpg thread.

>This is utterly moronic and anyone that buys into this a literal drooling brain damaged ape.

Name even a single jrpg that allows you to do the things described in that image. Shouldn't be hard considering jrpgs outnumber wrpgs by a 10:1 ratio if you look at rpg releases in any given year.

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You still haven't recovered from the massive dick I put in your ass yesterday and you're already back at it? In a WRPG thread on top of that?
Daily reminder to kill yourself, WRPG-Kun.

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i can't believe you get into bad arguments in bait threads

>Ask yourself this: how many jrpgs let you kill NPCs? Dark Souls...and that's pretty much it. By contrast, almost every WRPG lets you kill NPCs.
Now ask yourself this: how many times have you actually killed an NPC in Baldur's Gate except when it was either part of a quest, or you were just fucking around to see what the game would do?
The fact that the game engine technically lets you murder people is almost entirely irrelevant to anything about how the game actually plays, which is the point. Much of this supposed freedom illusory.

i've just been lurking long enough to see every variety of shitpost, that's all.

It's not even that, there's many WRPGs that also do not allow you to kill NPCs, NWN2 is an example of that, there's WRPGs that don't even have a steal option despite implementing Rogue/Thief classes, Kingmaker being the most recent example I can think of, where even the Rogue's supposed utility as trap disarmer is pointless since anyone can disarm anything as long as you dump points into trickery either way.
He'll still pretend none of those examples matter because he's literally insane, everything that doesn't follow his own distorted idea of what an RPG should be doesn't count when it's japanese, and when it's a western game, it doesn't exist or it's completely fine.
He's just a sociopath with free access to internet, now he's also doing his anti JRPG tirades on WRPG threads out of the blue just to show how fucking deranged he is.

I didn't say that every WRPG ever made implements every possible type of interaction possible. But even the ones that are lacking some options still offer overall more interactivity than virtually any jrpg.

Again, you keep insulting me, yet you have yet to name even a single jrpg that offers even remotely the same amount of interactions listed in that image.

Which means I can only assume you tacitly agree with me.

>tfw only played on some autist NWN Ravenloft-mod server
It was still very fun

not him but kind of missing the point.
>Can pickpocked NPCs
why, for what? Most of the time this is a completely useless skill, except when it's pre-programmed to be useful with specifically placed NPCs for a specific quest. In a JRPG that would just be a minigame or some shit.
>Can steal from stores
In Baldur's Gate 2 this is a stupid and broken mechanic that basically lets you, for the cost of one potion of master thievery per vendor, steal nearly every spell scroll available for sale. Supposedly it is "roleplaying" that your thief can literally steal an entire inventory of spells from a fucking spell vendor.
>Can pick locks
Which does exactly what for gameplay? Either the game has no locks worth picking in which case the skill is useless, or the game has locks worth picking and every party makes sure to have X% in lock-picking in order to meet the requirements.
There's no skill or risk or any kind of decision-making or involved after the game starts. You just point the thief at the lock and it opens or it doesn't depending on their skill.
>can detect and disarm traps
Another largely pointless hassle that really adds nothing to the game beyond "your party needs a thief" and "never move anywhere at a comfortable pace always go slow as fuck to make sure your thief can detect traps"
>set traps
>move in shadows
>backstab
Mostly legitimate points. Invisibility is useful in Baldur's Gate both in and out of combat, while in JRPGs it's either in-combat or nothing. Positioning outside of row/backrow is not a factor in JRPGs.
However, for "set traps" it's worth pointing out that for Baldur's Gate, they have very limited use due to the fact that virtually every enemy in the game is a static placement that you must either charge or pull with a range attack. There's no real dynamic environments where you can observe a pattern and then set a trap based on that observed pattern. In general "set traps" is a very disappointing skill in Baldur's Gate.

>He's just a sociopath with free access to internet, now he's also doing his anti JRPG tirades on WRPG threads out of the blue
I wasn't the one who out of the blue started shittalking wrpgs to prop up jrpgs. Others did. Specifically:

But why let pesky little things like facts get in the way of your false narrative?

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>Yea Forums has started defending movie games to spite WRPG-kun

>Again, you keep insulting me, yet you have yet to name even a single jrpg that offers even remotely the same amount of interactions listed in that image.
It's a bad faith comparison that doesn't proceed from a fair understanding of the point and emphasis of each game.
>But even the ones that are lacking some options still offer overall more interactivity than virtually any jrpg
Yes but the point is this is mostly just a matter of degree. It often isn't even a very large one, and WRPGs may have made major tradeoffs in their game engines and content design in order to include mechanics that wind up not being particularly engaging anyway.

kino

I'm not shit-talking WRPGs to prop up JRPGs, but in the hopes that WRPGs understand these problems and stop trying to pretend they aren't videogames.

>why, for what? Most of the time this is a completely useless skill, except when it's pre-programmed to be useful with specifically placed NPCs for a specific quest.
Are you sure you ever even played a wrpg in your life? Every wrpg that has pickpocketing also has npcs with their own loot tables that you can pickpocket, ranging from a few copper coins to jewelry to potentially a magic ring. Pickpocketing can make you rich.

Pickpocketing can also be a way to solve a quest, by pickpocketing a quest item from an npc that you otherwise would have had to get through a more difficult way.

In some wrpgs like Fallout, you can use pickpocketing as an assassination method, by placing a timed explosive in an enemy's pocket.

>In a JRPG that would just be a minigame or some shit.
What jrpgs even have pickpocketing?

>Which does exactly what for gameplay?
Depends on the game. In Deus Ex for exampl lockpicking consumes lockpicks, which are limited, so having a higher lockpicking skill will reduce how many you need.

>There's no real dynamic environments where you can observe a pattern and then set a trap based on that observed pattern. In general "set traps" is a very disappointing skill in Baldur's Gate.
That's true for Baldur's Gate, but most other wrpgs do have enemies that patrol around that you can observe from stealth.

>and if you disagree then you've literally never been in a wrpg vs jrpg thread
Why would you bring up that you're habitually dumpster-diving while in respectable company?

>It's a bad faith comparison that doesn't proceed from a fair understanding of the point and emphasis of each game.
How is it a bad faith comparison? It was a perfect comparison, both games having come out in the same year (2000), both being party-based story-driven RPGs and both being by far the most commercially succesful in their respective subgenres (baldur's gate for wrpg, final fantasy for jrpg).

>Yes but the point is this is mostly just a matter of degree. It often isn't even a very large one
Again, you have yet to point out even a single jrpg that offers even remotely the same amount of interactions listed in that image. Why do you keep repeating this empty claim if you can't even back it up?

I didn't read the thread. Has anyone called this guy a retard yet? It's very important that I know this.

>Why would you bring up that you're habitually dumpster-diving
Where do you think you are?
>while in respectable company?
No really, where do you think you are?

>I'm not shit-talking WRPGs to prop up JRPGs, but in the hopes that WRPGs understand these problems and stop trying to pretend they aren't videogames.

You want wrpgs to stop trying to pretend they aren't video games by...abandoning interactivity, the defining feature of video games?

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In one of the extremely rare good threads on this board forsaken by all imaginable deities. Why?

>two wojacks in a row
no need to say more lmao

>this thread
>good
huh??

>Mostly legitimate points. Invisibility is useful in Baldur's Gate both in and out of combat, while in JRPGs it's either in-combat or nothing.
Wait, what? Since when do jrpgs have stealth 'in-combat'? It's not like Fire Emblem for example lets you use a thief to sneak around unseen on the map. Instead, all characters on the map are somehow all completely visible to each other, despite the map being massive.

Not the only ones. I enjoyed order of the griffon and warriors of the eternal sun.

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Yes, go play Persona 5, if you want to see peak RPG game design.

>no need to say more lmao
So what you're saying is that those wojacks accurately represented your level of intelligence and your inability to come up with any coherent arguments?

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First I want to note that in spite of everything in this post, I like both Baldur's Gate games more than Final Fantasy IX, in fact do not like FF9 much at all.
>How is it a bad faith comparison?
Apart from (too much) story, Final Fantasy IX's gameplay emphasis is on the combat. Combat is predominantly random encounters and major boss fights. Combat emphasis is split between preparation and decision-making in battle, with a very small amount of skill and quickness in handling the real-time ATB element. The vast majority of time not spent in cutscene events, NPC interaction, or minigames, is spent in combat. Thus, FF9 emphasizes consistently engaging combat with a variety of abilities to choose from that work within the limitations of that combat system.

Zidane has several active combat abilities and an array of passive abilities. Zidane can flee the whole from random encounters, which is as effective as winning except you get no rewards. He can also reset the turn counters of the enemy with a distraction. He has a special ability that can inflict weapon-based status ailments.

Baldur's Gate doesn't have an equivalent to those because the focus of the game is different. There's no "random encounter" dynamic. There's no need to try and balance a string of encounters to have meaningful decisions to make, even when the encounters present no serious threat. Baldur's Gate might have your thief sneak up and get the jump on a wizard and chunk him before he can cast protection spells. Which is fun but also leads to very inconsistent battle sequences. A wizard battle that might have been engaging and involve a lot of tactical decision-making winds up being over before it begins due to a clever exploit. (Which leads to counter-exploits like having Wizards auto-buff the moment you get near them whether they've actually noticed you or not).

>16-bit

Was it fun?

Shadow in Final Fantasy VI has a stealth move that turns him invisible (requires an item). When he's invisible he can't be hit by physical attacks but he can be hit by magic.
But no it's not "stealth," it's a combat buff. That's the point. A good JRPG makes its combat as engaging and dynamic as possible, as it's the focus of the game (well, it used to be, before story started overwhelming them).

ToEE is a better implementation

>You want wrpgs to stop trying to pretend they aren't video games by...abandoning interactivity
Branching dialog trees has all the "interactivity" of filling out multiple choice bubbles on a scantron with your #2 lead pencil. It's nothing at all like real conversation even if there are autists like you who can't understand the difference.
I want games to focus on the kind of interactivity they are good at.

I've played loads of D&D crpgs but I don't know shit about tabletop. Is it as gamey as the, well, games? Like can you sneak up on some sleeping Demigod and slit his throat with a knife or will it only do 1d4 damage plus sneak attack whatever but he has still has like 500hp left?

I've already did time and again, you always refuse them because you get exposed and then come back 24 hours later and repeat the same exact shitposting, day after day, pretending nothing happened for all the times you've been BTFO ingloriously.
And you know why, because you're a sociopath.
>I wasn't the one who out of the blue started shittalking wrpgs to prop up jrpgs.
In fact nobody did, all those posts are literally not propping up either JRPGs or WRPGs, but rather pointing out how both have something good to offer and making fun of idiots like you who still engage in the worst possible case of hooliganism out of butthurt, like you do literally every day, in multiple threads.

Again, you're insane, JRPGs literally live rent free in your head 24/7 (or rather some very vague idea of them, since you proved time and again you haven't played jackshit) and you shitpost incessantly about them every day.

This is the pathetic excuse of a life you have, a loser glued to his chair shitposting about videogames you never played on Yea Forums all day, out of blind hooliganism for a genre you don't even know all that well yourself, and you do it for free, you're literally worse off than a janny, the lowest organism in the Yea Forums pyramid.

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Thoughts on Realms Beyond Yea Forums? Will it be the NWN/ToEE hybrid to save us all or yet another failed kickstarter?
youtube.com/watch?v=RjjDHEegtYQ

Attached: RB_IndieDB_News.jpg (1024x768, 370K)

It's not about having the extra aspects being a negative on the game, but how they are already talking about sacrificing core D&D things like hit chance and spell slots in exchange for them.

>Is it as gamey as the, well, games?
Depends on the GM.
>Like can you sneak up on some sleeping Demigod and slit his throat with a knife
If you're a god tier Rogue/Assassin with badass magical items, sure, people piledrive dragons out of the sky on the regular so I don't see why you can't do that.

The problem is that a tabletop session isn't as "visual" as a game, and it works on fundamentally different premises either way, the present of a GM is what makes tabletop special, otherwise we'd all grab a bunch of spreadsheet and dice and play by ourselves.

I like the hex system, that's about it, it looks and sounds immensely boring.

>Branching dialog trees has all the "interactivity" of filling out multiple choice bubbles on a scantron with your #2 lead pencil. It's nothing at all like real conversation even if there are autists like you who can't understand the difference.

The only one who has brought up dialogue trees is you, in a pathetic attempt to create some illusory strawman. Look around you: the discussion here is about tactical options during gameplay.

Attached: 1552167632268.jpg (550x549, 39K)

I really like the backgrounds for the game but the animations seem to be lacking some of the "oomph" that ToEE has which can make or break a turn-based game.

>the animations seem to be lacking some of the "oomph" that ToEE has
To be fair, that's WiP footage, so things might change in the future.
The hex system is a very good premise though, it can lead to very interesting stuff and a potentially very good integration of the TT rules, it's too bad that I grew tired of D&D long ago and this game looks very, very vanilla D&D.

It's already confirmed to not have multiclassing (except for prestige classes) which is great for me because then I'm not expected to have to do 4/8/4/4/12 for my character.

>Apart from (too much) story, Final Fantasy IX's gameplay emphasis is on the combat.
If the emphasis is on combat, then wouldn't that be an even stronger argument for FFIX adopting some of the variety in spells and abilities that Baldur's Gate has?

I'm not sure I buy the argument that FFIX's emphasis is on the combat. I would argue the emphasis is on the story, with the combat encounters mostly existing as a token effort to complement the story because well, it's a game and there has to be gameplay, right? Like most everything else in the jrpg genre, random encounters in FFIX make up 99.99% of the combat, and they typically pose no threat whatsoever. This has to do with the typical assymetrical nature of jrpg combat, where enemies can deal maybe 10-20 damage while the player is able to deal hundreds of points of damage and eventually, thousands. With such massive numbers inflation, it becomes very difficult to balance the game to still have a modicum of challenge.

This is in sharp contrast to tabletop-inspired rpgs, where player and enemies play by the same rules and have similar amounts of health and deal similar amounts of damage.

>Which leads to counter-exploits like having Wizards auto-buff the moment you get near them whether they've actually noticed you or not
That's not an exploit, it's a game mechanic the player can also use: contingencies and spell sequencers, that let you store spells and quickly activate them if a certain condition is met. Also, some enemies possess the ability of true sight, letting them see through invisibility and other illusions (though this in turn can be prevented with some other spells).

>FFIX
>Gameplay

Attached: FinalMovieIX.png (1274x276, 100K)

Not having multiclassing isn't a good idea though, but frankly, RPGs are really dumping in depth customization more and more these days, I don't really know what to think of it.
Like, how the fuck am I supposed to go Arcane Trickster from Wizard if I can't multiclass? I don't think thats a good idea at all unless you change the prestige class requirement, and even there it would still be a boring game.

They won't be existing 3.5 prestige classes but something more akin to Wizardry 7.

This meme has gotten tired

I'm worried it's gonna be vaporware.

>This has to do with the typical assymetrical nature of jrpg combat, where enemies can deal maybe 10-20 damage while the player is able to deal hundreds of points of damage and eventually, thousands.
[Citation needed]
>This is in sharp contrast to tabletop-inspired rpgs, where player and enemies play by the same rules
They most certainly do not, unless you believe enemies that come stacked with multiple permanent effects like Displacement, True sight and all kind of damage reduction on top of absurd rolls and abilities that plain unobtainable by player characters is "playing by the same rules".

>Armor +5
But lower is better so obviously +5 is going to be bad.

>This meme has gotten tired
Not really, although 9,5 hours of cutscenes is actually on the low side for a jrpg. Although that still doesn't really capture what a negative effect those cutscenes have on gameplay. I remember spending a huge chunk of FF9 being stuck with party members separated and not even being allowed to explore, instead just jumping from linear setpiece to setpiece.

>but something more akin to Wizardry 7.
Ah, that makes sense, I guess.
Not really sure how well this is going to work though, so this is basically a heavily homebrewed 3.5 game?
Might be cool for people who like it I guess.

BG and BG2 (all AD&D CRPG for that matter) had minimal multiclassing which was available only in character creation.

I kinda prefer it. The current class/build mechanics have lead to bloat and cheese game play of autistic optimization.

You know what?

I think, essentially, this game is simply deliberate anti-Ruins-of-Myth-Drannor.

RoMD was gargantuan and barebones, ToEE is ultra-low-scale and ultra-detailed. The majority of conversations in RoMD was simply hearsay about what maybe transpired somewhere in the dungeons, ToEE has plenty simplistic quests, with non-linearity too. RoMD was essentially grey, ToEE is rainbow-colored in comparison. RoMD had endless zombie and orc fights, in ToEE 2/3s of battles actually bring some slight new twist to the table.

There is a problem. Two, actually. First one, dungeon design, layouting itself, in ToEE sucks RoMD's ass, and this is painful self-evident in where the games dead-on intersect gameplay-wise: in the Temple (the game is named after) itself. Second, ToEE despite being anti-RoMD in everything, adds essentially nothing of value to it. RoMD, regardless of whether it was someone's cup of tea, had a point to it, was consistent, while ToEE is, seems to me, effectively a pretty timesink posing for something more significant than that. Whether it actually delivers on the latter, I am actually very much doubtful about.

>Not really,
From inception it wasn't a very good argument though it was mostly just used for games that no one in their right mind liked, nowadays people just search "Game The Movie" even though some of those include much, much more than anything that's even vaguely like a cutscene and use it to shitpost.
It's far from the worst way to argue but it's not exactly a good one either.

It's based off 3.5 OGL so there's some D&D stuff they cant use.

>[Citation needed]

Literally the first thing that comes up when searching for 'ff9 gameplay' in YouTube.

youtube.com/watch?v=dJVOBGK6W1s

Look at that video. The player characters are able to deal 400+ damage with ease, while the enemy is able to deal a whopping...30 damage.

I don't know why you'd be in denial about this. Every jrpg I ever played is designed like this.

>They most certainly do not
They absolutely do. Even a dragon like Firkraag, one of the most powerful creatures in the entire D&D setting, only has 184 HP, barely more than what a player character can achieve.

baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Firkraag

Non-human creatures can have certain traits, like specific resistances, yes, but those traits are shared by other members of that race of creatures, heck, the player can gain those traits if he polymorphs into those creatures.

>meme
Final Fantasy games were among the first movie games.

Attached: FinalMovieVII.png (418x596, 248K)

...

>The current class/build mechanics have lead to bloat and cheese game play of autistic optimization.
On the other hand they also allow a degree of customization, which is important.
Munchkins are going to exist no matter how much you limit your system, who am I to tell people they can't multiclass their monks into wizards if they want to? Just because I have a beef with minmaxers doesn't mean other players have to suffer for it.
You make some valid points but
>while ToEE is, seems to me, effectively a pretty timesink posing for something more significant than that
You could say that for a lot of RPG, Vanilla ToEE is a deliberately low level adventure, laser focused on the actual meat of the campaign, like many dungeon crawlers of old, and there's nothing inherently bad about it since it does deliver, even in Vanilla.
Co8 and Temple+ add a lot more stuff to the main game, many things which I personally consider critical to what makes ToEE a good game, I would never pley ToEE nowadays without mods.

Baldur's Gate is also pretty disappointing taken by itself, but again, it's a low level campaign, Icewind Dale also feels pretty empty and monotone, but it's a very combat focused campaign, and so on.
I wouldn't say ToEE is a timesink that pretends to be something more than that, it's just a really short D&D campaign that plays hard on being one of the most faithful integration of the D&D ruleset in vidya form, and focused on blasting shit in a gorillion ways instead of playing pretend with a bunch of scripted NPCs about the fate of the world or some pretentious pseudophilosophical bullshit, you have Planescape and Morrowind for that, ToEE never presents itself as anything other than good old D&D dungeon crawling and asskicking.
By the by, one thing I really, really like about ToEE that a lot of other RPGs did not even consider is giving you ACTUAL FUCKING BACKGROUNDS that change the game's prologue depending on what you choose to be.

Agree and I dm'd it for about a decade.

Funny thing is combat at least is probably better in a video game. No need to flip through the book to find out what modifiers impact you because you're standing in a stream (pg #), during a rain storm (pg ##), after not eating for a day or two (pg ###).

It's actually pretty bad, without CO8, till you hit the temple. Especially the first town.

because it wasn't active turn based but just purely tactically turn-based. a great solution and I think Wasteland 2 DC(I don't care if I get shit for this from some autist) did it right as well with its similar approach. I just would like to have more DnD modules with that combat system or engine. I don't know if it's true but Tim Cain might have wanted to do more modules with that engine but they just didn't get the license to do more. at least Co8 released the Keep on the Borderlands mod. was quite interesting.

it's alright for video games. I still love NWN2.
there was so much untapped potential too.

>because it wasn't active turn based but just purely tactically turn-based
What's the diffeerence? What does 'active' turn-based even mean?

The 2nd part attracts That Guy or pushes RP dude into acting like him.

I remember years ago pirating this game, spending 15 minutes making a party and then instantly getting swallowed alive by giant frogs.
I uninstalled if afterwards, I didn't understand what the fuck I was playing and didn't wanna find out.

I don't need to look at that video because unlike you I played that game and know how it's balanced, and I also do not pretend literally thousands of games all work exactly like FF9, which you do.
>The player characters are able to deal 400+ damage with ease, while the enemy is able to deal a whopping...30 damage.
Because those enemies are mooks, how weird you do not complain about goblins barely even hitting you in the average D&D game but you complain about this.
Not to mention the HP standards in FF games are based on very different values and enemies are distributed in a way that accomodates balance with your expected HP level, while a PC character HP caps at 9999 enemies far exceed that and often end up with seven digit HPs, which you would know if you actually played that game, which again, you didn't.
>Every jrpg I ever played is designed like this.
You haven't touched a single game you criticized, you don't even know something as basic as how FF balance HP values, you still desperately pretend you can fool me after so much time?
>Even a dragon like Firkraag, one of the most powerful creatures in the entire D&D setting, only has 184 HP
Except that what makes D&D creatures dangerous aren't their HP values, but all the stacking effects they have AND their other stats, because D&D is specifically about AVOIDING DAMAGE altogether.
I can't fucking believe you even try to pass this as an argument, holy shit, you're not only mentally deranged, you're absolutely fucking retarded.

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>Rogue's supposed utility as trap disarmer is pointless since anyone can disarm anything as long as you dump points into trickery either way

That is pathfinder and 5e not necessarily the game's fault.
I don't know about pf2 but probably the same.

>NWN/ToEE hybrid

already doesn't look like it.
they should let Obsidian or inXile do something with a D&D license again.

Not really. People keep parroting this phrase but all the reaction and interrupt actions alone would've been very clunky in vidya form. You'd have prompts popping up at you all the fucking time, disrupting gameflow.

your first problem was only spending 15 minutes making a party

Keeping an eye on this and Solasta. The latter in particular.
youtube.com/watch?v=aQ30CjTaHJo

I don't think so 'cause they all got digested like 5 minutes later.

>What's the diffeerence? What does 'active' turn-based even mean?

what do you think it means, dumbo? are you seriously asking this or do you play dumb just to troll? combat runs more or less in real time (albeit there are still turns and cool-downs with each character involved) until you pause it (if you wanna) to change tactics and give different orders to influence the outcome of battle.

BG 1 and 2, IWD 1 and 2, NWN 1 and 2, PoE 1 and 2 all have ATB combat systems.

ToEE and Wasteland 2 are turn-based only and there is no real time element.

Was keep on the borderlands good? I downloaded it but didn't get past the opening area with it.

>That is pathfinder and 5e not necessarily the game's fault.
I don't think it's a problem though, I just stated how it works in that system in particular, I actually like it too, don't really think there's anything bad with it.

he means realtime with pause where it plays in realtime with actions happening every 6 seconds

>BG 1 and 2, IWD 1 and 2, NWN 1 and 2, PoE 1 and 2 all have ATB combat systems.
No they don't. ATB is strictly a SE thing.

it wasn't mindblowing but surely worth playing through. I mean that's the only new content you're gonna get for a long ass time if you liked ToEE and want something similar.

Yes, I agree, it's there so you're not fucked without a rogue, similar to the way you were in a tight spot without healing.

You need a certain background or feat in 5e so it's not THAT bad.

what's SE?

btw, yes they do.
ask the devs yourself.

>Because those enemies are mooks, how weird you do not complain about goblins barely even hitting you in the average D&D game but you complain about this.
Enemies pose significantly more threat to the player in say, Baldur's Gate than they do in Final Fantasy 9. Even something like wolf or a gibberling, the first enemy you encounter in the game, can 1hitkill a low-level character.

Granted, in D&D AC vs Thac0 is actually a factor, as well as damage rolls. Whereas in Final; Fantasy and most jrpgs attacks are basically static, since they almost never miss, and they always deal roughly the same amount of damage. Still, even when you consider those things, I still fail to see how random encounters in FF9 can possibly pose a threat to the player. I don't know why you're even defending this.

>Except that what makes D&D creatures dangerous aren't their HP values, but all the stacking effects they have AND their other stats, because D&D is specifically about AVOIDING DAMAGE altogether.
You have yet to post any evidence of those alleged stacking effects and stats.

Fucking retard. ATB stands for Active Time Battle.

It's a retarded argument anyway, since the discussion was about the existence of thief skills in RPGs in the first place and interactivity in RPGs in general, not whether they're tied to a certain class or archetype.

>stacking effects
Not really much of a thing in 5e that bg3 is built around.

Autistic weeb lol

>I've already did time and again
Still not even a single example.

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Random encounters aren't always meant to be a threat. They're meant to wear you down on your way to the boss. Some can be more dangerous than others through status effects like poison or petrify, some just hit really hard, and some have a gimmick like stealing your shit and running away.

that would still correlate with active turn-based. same thing, you stupid Yea Forums fedora cocksucker autist neckbeard fuck.

It's not the same thing. Get fucked tardo.

Imagine being this retarded. It was the best edition since 2. And ToEE was the best game by miles in part because of a real attempt to faithfully implement the d&d combat system of 3.5 into it.

it fucking is and it doesn't change no matter what you say, rancid ass Yea Forumsanker. and if by SE you mean Square Enix, well, FF12 is literally like a core D&D videogame with an active turn-based system.

Wrong.

They're older and not anywhere near as palatable to play now. Whilst something like ToEE or even bg2 is still perfectly serviceable. Like they're really bad to play today. I'd be playing the dark sun games a whole lot more if they weren't so unplayably old

>Enemies pose significantly more threat to the player in say, Baldur's Gate than they do in Final Fantasy 9.
They do not, unless you're completely retarded, and it goes the same ways for FF9, as piss easy as it is.
>Whereas in Final; Fantasy and most jrpgs attacks are basically static
They aren't, again, stop talking about games you didn't even see their main menu, every time you open your mouth you get exposed, do you actually enjoy that?
You don't even know how their basic design work so you pretend FF(and all other JRPGs) is bad because it doesn't follow D&D damage mechanics.
>I still fail to see how random encounters in FF9 can possibly pose a threat to the player
A lot of people wonder the same thing about BG games, the complaint about trash encounter is incredibly common, but of course, you're going to deny this too, just as you're going to deny it for a lot of other WRPGs like IW or NWN.
>You have yet to post any evidence of those alleged stacking effects and stats.
You posted the link yourself you imbecile.

>His ring grants Firkraag immunity to backstab, invisibility detection, immunity to stun, sleep, silence, domination, charm, confusion, hold, slow, paralyze, entangle, web, grease and wing buffet. For the first in-game hour (5 turns, 300 realtime seconds) after entering the lair, he is also immune to many ranged weapons. Depending on game edition, some or all of these ammunition immunities, but only these, can be dispelled.
>Normal arrows
>Arrows +1
>Blessed bolts, Case of Plenty, all Drow and Kuo-toan bolt variants and the Sahuagin's paralytic bolts
>Bolts of biting, lightning and polymorphing, bolts +1, +2 and +3
>Normal bullets, including those fired from the Sling of Everard
>Bullets +1, +2, +3, +4 and sunstone bullets
>The darts +5, obtained from the Cloak of the Stars
>All other variants of darts
>The Boomerang Dagger, Firetooth and the Boneblade
>Normal and poisoned throwing daggers
>All axes and hammers that can be thrown

>It was the best edition since 2
This is such a grognard opinion to have jesus christ.

Attached: 1358085600074.jpg (599x521, 42K)

>Random encounters aren't always meant to be a threat. They're meant to wear you down on your way to the boss.
That doesn't really work in jrpgs considering whenever you're about to encounter a boss, there's typically a save point and/or a healing fountain that basically spells out there's going to be a boss.

Also, the random encounters in jrpgs are so trivial they not only fail to wear you down, but they in fact make you stronger, since you can just steal potions from them.

And random encounters, as originally envisioned, were in fact supposed to be a threat. The first RPGs to implement random encounters didn't even have bosses (apart from one boss at the very end of the game). It was the random encounters themselves that was supposed to be the challenge.

stop talking about jap crap in my thread

I'd say, that BG1, RoMD and ToEE sort of comprise a trilogy in between of them. It's not that all three are low-level D&Ds with a sort of realistic vibe to them.

BG1 is sort of "Ludonarrative Consonance: The Game". Everything more or less prominent story-wise, player faceplants right into with direct gameplay reprecussions. The locations are physically connected to each other (mysteriously still requiring travel time however), the game is deliberately set out the way that every hardship MC experiences is somehow mirrored in the actual gameplay experience. In other words, its whole point is being as coherent as at all possible, I think. Bioware proved themselves utterly incapable of developing that angle further in BG2 however.

RoMD did, however. Somehow. I am not sure. It's a weird-ass game I have seen nothing whatsoever alike ever. Frankly, I am one of the, seems to me, handful of people, who just happen to love what this game seemingly set out to do. I mean, I fail to find words for it, but I still love it. BG invented something new - and changed the genre (pushing it from high fantasy to self-consistent low-fantasy), RoMD invented something new on top - and everyone like "what the fuck IS that thing? good God, let's not even look that way". It appears to me, ToEE did instead look exactly that way.

ToEE, as I stated, it hit me, is, in a very large part, simply anti-RoMD, adherence to the setting or not. The question that interests me is whether it actually adds anything to RoMD's point, whatever that fucking point even might be, or if it is just simply all subversive and contrarian-like, taking RoMD as a starting point (the choice of RoMD being contrarian in itself due to abysmal that game's reputation at the time of ToEE's development already) - and that's it.

It's pretty and entertaining, that's a given. It changes the pace compared to RoMD - no doubt about that as well. Quest-non-linearity is nice, as is all the detailing, even if naive.

>Ludonarrative Consonance
Shut the fuck up with whatever pretentious bullshit you're going on about.

But all of those niceties don't answer my main question - and that question is "so what? your point being?".

Maybe it just flies over my head. And maybe it's RoMD's point that flew over ToEE's designers' heads. I simply don't know at the moment.

This.

This reads like it's written by someone who knows jrpg from cheap normie memes and vidya comics.

What is RoMD?

You have better ways of summing up BG1 in just two words?

>a dragon is immune to certain things like being backstabbed
Yes, and? You do realize that makes perfect sense, right? A human(oid) has the anatomy to allow for backstabbing, whereas a dragon doesn't for rather self-evident reasons.

Pool of Radiance 2: Ruins of Myth Drannor.
A.k.a. "100 hours in zombie-infested grey catacombs: The Game" a.k.a. "The game that wipes your Windows folder if you install and then uninstall it under specific conditions".

>Takes back stab to mean literally stabbed in the back

What a dumb dumb

>That doesn't really work in jrpgs considering whenever you're about to encounter a boss, there's typically a save point and/or a healing fountain that basically spells out there's going to be a boss.
How is this an argument when WRPGs literally let you save mid battle?
>the random encounters in jrpgs are so trivial they not only fail to wear you down
yeah, sure
>but they in fact make you stronger, since you can just steal potions from them.
LMAO, what? Where?
Are you really pretending all random encounters in all JRPGs let you steal potions and also pretend potions are actually viable?
>And random encounters, as originally envisioned, were in fact supposed to be a threat.
They weren't, even going back to something as ancient as Wizardry 1, your average random encounter was meant to chip your health, in fact most of the random encounters in Wizardry game are resolved in one or two turns at best, with the odd dangerous one with something like a Master Ninja, nobody who actually played Wizardry pretends random encounters were supposed to be threatening.
Even in Wiz4, which is notoriously a russian roulette in its encounters, most do gooder encounters are cleared with ease. in one or two turns.

>"The game that wipes your Windows folder if you install and then uninstall it under specific conditions".

Does it still do that?

Asking for a friend.

Good game.

How are these people so fucking stupid
Thac0 isn't remotely baffling. LOWER IS BETTER. THAT'S IT. IT'S THAT SIMPLE. YOUR ARMOUR RATING IS WHAT THE ENEMY GET ON THEIR ROLL WHEN ATTACKING YOU. IF IT IS MINUS, THEY ARE GETTING A PENALTY TO HIT YOU
HOW DO YOU NOT COMPREHEND THE SIMPLEST SHIT I FUCKING HATE YOU RETARDS
Oh no, it's too complex. Okay, we'll just reverse it so it doesn't show your ac as the penalty the enemy will get to their attacks, we'll just show it as 7 but the calculation will still operate the same. OH YOU UNDERSTAND IT SUDDENLY DO YOU REALLY
It's the same fucking system. Any retard saying its baffling or complex or hard to understand is saying the exact same about every other rpg armour system because they're the exact fucking same just with + and - reversed on your fucking character sheet

Attached: Cbk71q2VAAAWiY2.jpg (554x388, 12K)

Yeah. Shitty game.

>Being immune to 90% of shutdowns in the game and projectiles?
>I sleep
>Being immune to backstabs tho
>REAL SHIT
You can't be serious

Most people don't know how AC worked before 3E/3.5E, it's not surprising they don't know about THAC0

I assure you that stabbing a dragon in the arsehole would do significantly more damage than stabbing it on an armoured fucking leg retardo.

>How is this an argument when WRPGs literally let you save mid battle?
Nobody in this thread made the argument that wrpg battles are supposed to wear you down over time, you retard. It was only who made that argument for jrpgs.

It's an even more retarded argument since healing in jrpgs is plentiful and there is no shortage of healing spells and potions, in contrast to say, Wizardry, where healing was highly limited.

>They weren't, even going back to something as ancient as Wizardry 1, your average random encounter was meant to chip your health
Chip away at your health for...what? Again, Wizardry 1 only had the Werdna boss at the end of the game. I thought the argument was that jrpg random encounters were deliberately easy to chip away at your health in anticipation of the upcoming boss battle

I think that possibility was introduced with one of the patches and overruled by later patches. I am not sure. For it to backfire, you had to be dumb enough to install it somewhere important on disk C:, to begin with. Anyway, no, I don't think it, being fully patched, still does it.

Your friend will have other problems. Fixed 800x600 resolution, for one. Disappearing 3D models, on newer videocards, for two.

It is the correct opinion. Want another correct opinion? It was also the last great edition of d&d, everything since has been dumbed down and limited garbage. Anyone playing d&d now on a post 3.5 ruleset that isn't a retard is essentially running their own version, using their own rules mixed in to make it even worth playing.

>LOWER IS BETTER. THAT'S IT. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
But a +3 sword is better than a +2.

>It was only who made that argument for jrpgs.
>Point out how FF's model works
>It's now an apology for the entire genre
Are you stupid? Oh wait, you are.
>It's an even more retarded argument since healing in jrpgs is plentiful
Again with the wide generalizations, I see.
It's really no different from your average WRPG, but sure, let's pretend you can't just stack scrolls and potion of cure critical wounds, let alone rest after every fight AND save whenever on top of it all.
>Chip away at your health for...what?
>Wizardry 1 only had the Werdna boss at the end of the game.
So you haven't even played Wizardry 1.
To think somebody stupid enough exists, and pretends that Wiz1 is a straight ten minute corridor to Werdna.

Isn't AC and THAC0 literally the same except in reverse. Is that really worth sperging out about? Especially when both are shit.

>Implying ninjas in wizardry 1 chipped away at your fucking health

Has this guy even played a video game? They just killed you. Random encounters in wizardry make boss fights in other games look easy

That's not your ac, it doesn't affect your ac.
It's not confusing, the +2 chainmail is better than a +1 chainmail, there is no -1 chainmail. Lower is better on your character sheet, which is where you check your ac. It's the least complex shit ever

And that's why they changed it. Lower is better here, but higher is better there. Now, bigger numbers are always better.

No, it's inherently contradictory. Lower stats are better, except when it comes to equipment. With that you want positive numbers... which lower your stats. It's always been retarded.

Yes. It's that THAC0 is a pants-on-head way of seeing it, so 20 years ago the exact same concept and calculations were explained through AC, and no one had to bring up the former way of doing it.
Besides when we're talking about BG, so we have lots of people who're already used to the same system, but more intuitively described, being exposed to it

THAC0 is just the roll you need to hit an enemy with armor class of 0, if an enemy has positive AC, you subtract thac0 by that AC and will have a lower roll needed to hit the enemy, if they have negative AC, you will have to roll a higher number to hit. D&D hasn't had negative AC and thac0 since 2000.

Ninjas in Wizardry games get cockblocked the moment your party is able to negate ambushes, which is what Ninjas capitalize on, this is also without considering AC.
>Random encounters in wizardry make boss fights in other games look easy
Imagine thinking Tiltowait spam bait is dangerous, I'm sure you're bad enough at the games that you also have trouble controlling Greater Demons floods.
Then again, I always forget you don't play games, you just talk about them.

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because ToEE was a buggy unplayable mess

on patch literally made all monsters unlootable making the game impossible to beat

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You have an iq of about 37 if you can't understand the very simple system that was thac0 lads, I hate to break it to you.
But hey, look how great we've improved it now. Now you just get armour that you can look at that says big numbers but doesn't actually tell you what it does, or is insignificant increases like wow I have hundreds of armour, wonder what each point does, or doesn't even function like d&d and instead gives a %damage reduction as opposed to a penalty to your opponents chance to hit. BIG NUMBERS BETTER THOUGH PLS SHOW ME BIGGER NUMBERS MAKE ME FEEL GOOD, much better system.
Thac0 was not complex or confusing. It was not the best system, but we've currently got systems 100x worse all because of brainlets and big number retards, n i c e

>Lower stats are better, except when it comes to equipment. With that you want positive numbers... which lower your stats. It's always been retarded.
Yes, because a chainmail +2 will give your opponent an extra penalty of 2 to hit you compared to a basic chainmail. Which is reflected in your character sheet. Christ how can you be so dumb. Your ac isn't your ac, it's your enemies chance to hit you. Do you want that to be higher? No, you do not, you want that to be lower

they made a video game about ullilillia's book?

Right. Right. The non euclidean wizardry maps are just ezpz and ff9 is super hardcore. Not even either of you two circlejerking, but if you're implying that anything about any wizardry game before 5 is easy, you're a fucking retard

None of that refutes the fact that the system is inherently contradictory and will confuse anyone at first glance.

they traveled back in time to the 80s to copy his book wtf

>The non euclidean wizardry maps are just ezpz and ff9 is super hardcore.
Never said that, what do maps have to do with encounter design either way?
>but if you're implying that anything about any wizardry game before 5 is easy
Wizardry 5 is one of my favorite games of all time, I have immense respect for the series, even a tiny bit for the Bradleyshit games, which as much as I dislike I can appreciate in some way.
The core difficulty of Wizardry games (4 excluded), is the mapping and progression, not the fights, your first game is gonna be rough because you're gonna learn the ropes.
You don't know how fights play out, sure, you're not gonna know a lot of really nasty tricks (and potentially exploitable tricks) like summon loops, you're not gonna know about all the newbie traps with triggerable encounters with specific high level monsters that will kill you in seconds and you're definitely not gonna deal with the dice looking at you the wrong way and getting your party of badassess wiped in an ambush.
But after the first game? It's really all routine for better or worse, they're not really hard games when it comes to encounters, it's really all buffs, shutdowns and wailing with your cuisinart/spamming your instakill magic, the encounter design is often very simple, especially for the llylgamyn games.
That isn't to say FF, and especially FF9, is any better, I don't even like that garbage franchise, but pretending Wizardry's encounter design or battle system is better off when it's actually even more mechanically barren until the Dark Savant games (and even there only 8 is somehow "complex") it's really, really hard to not laugh at, as much as I love it, as much as Wizardry will always be a more enjoyable and better designed, fun and challenging series in terms of general gameplay design.

One day when you'll have played enough games and be able to put fanboyism aside, look at things without the need to prove something to someone, you'll understand.

I have neverwinter nights on gog. Never played it. Should I?

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Avoid both NWN games like the plague, 2 especially.

The custom modules are the meat of the game. I'm currently doing Tomb of Horrors with 2 other people and it's a lot of fun but ToEE's combat system is miles better.

>doesn't even have accurate size stacking mechanics
Disappointing to see your 2H sword become a toothpick after casting Enlarge

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>i rolled a 16
>what's your ac
>-4
>12 is a miss
it's very simple to everyone that encounters is. it's not any different from
>what's your ac
>4
>okay so take away 4
it's the exact same thing.

I'm not even trying to argue maps or specific encounter designs. I'm saying that having random enemies be able to permanently kill party members in a long rpg makes it hard. Sure, as long as you don't get ambushed it's relatively fine. But point me to a single jrpg that even has permadeath, let alone enemies that can one shot you.

Kingmaker is not a good game to prop up as an example of being honest to the ruleset.

It's not the same thing
>I've replaced my platemail +1 with platemail +2. I'll add that to my current AC of 5.
>My AC is now 6.
>My AC is now 4.
One of these is intuitive and can be understood by anyone. The other is literally backwards that no sane person would figure out on their own.

PF:KM expands on the formula of Baldur’s Gate 1 by introducing much richer character-building from the P&P original.

It preserves freedom of exploration, a hallmark of BG1 that its spiritual sequels lacked. Loyalty to the original P&P system makes PF:KM less simplistic and “streamlined” than has come to be expected from the genre in the recent years. It does not pander to the low-skilled: the combat is famously uncompromising, character-building invites planning, spells and buffing are not to be ignored, whilst equipment needs constant updating. The game does not artificially isolate you from opponents above your level. This lack of hand-holding makes PF:KM uncommonly exciting and rewarding.

PF:KM has an expansive campaign with plenty of choice reactivity, including branching decisions which may affect companions. Unusually, the campaign dedicates a hefty portion to low-to-mid level adventures - a welcome change from the regular heaping of gods and dragons onto the player. The setting is well-explained - say, there are flavourful descriptions for monsters. Initially bug-ridden, the game has been fixed by now. PF:KM is detailed, dynamic, diverse, enormous, tough, bold, and brimming with late 90s ethos while looking perfectly modern.

Fpbp

>One of these is intuitive and can be understood by anyone
They are both exactly as intuitive and understandable as each other lol.

>But point me to a single jrpg that even has permadeath, let alone enemies that can one shot you.
I don't really hope you're asking this seriously, although I fear you are, there tons of games from SMT to the Ogre Series, to SaGa or the more obscure games like Oreshika, even FE has permadeath as a selling point and enemies that are more than capable of wiping you out or kill you surgically in SMT or SaGa's case, even FE does and it's a really piss easy babby game series.
Besides, permadeath in itself means very little, especially in Wizardry context where all your party members are expendable nobodies, what matters is how mechanics are implemented in the bigger picture.
Would you say Wizardry's permadeath is more or less forgiving than SMT's, and on what basis?
It's really not that simple as you think it is, just because a game has a feature doesn't mean said feature is good or bad, or that the game is inherently good or bad because it does or doesn't have it.

Again, would you say Kingmaker is a bad RPGs because you can't pickpocket people?
is NWN2 a bad game because you can't go murderhobo on NPCs?
Is Gothic a bad game because you're stuck with a predefined character?
>It preserves freedom of exploration
It really doesn't, in fact the game cockblocks you from exploring outside of the portion of the map you're allowed to play in, on top of that it also level gates locations, so no, Kingmaker, with all its good and bad most certainly does not preserve freedom of exploration since it has barely any.

No reasonable person would ever come to the conclusion that 5+1=4.

because it's 5-1=4

>Is Gothic a bad game because you're stuck with a predefined character?
No, Gothic 2 is pure kino.

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see just because you're retarded doesn't mean everyone is. you're gaining +1 to ac, which means the enemy suffers an extra -1 to their roll. thaco is not your fucking armour class, stop trying to pretend it is because you are a brainlet, it's a hit chance calculation

It's not loyal to the original system though, even with turn-based mod.

>Ogre battle
>Fire emblem
>Jrpg

Tactical RPGs like Fe and ogre 64 (by far the best one) are not the same thing as final fantasy ten.
One day when you'll have read enough games and be able to put fanboyism aside, look at things without the need to prove something to someone, you'll understand how to read a post. I don't understand how you were able to beat any of these games without being literate.

>Tactical RPGs like Fe and ogre 64 (by far the best one) are not the same thing as final fantasy ten.
So, Jagged Alliance, Ultima Underworld and Deus Ex are totally the same thing as Wizardry, ToEE and Baldur's Gate when it comes to WRPGs but Ogre Battle and FE suddenly aren't JRPGs? Despite being RPGs made in Japan?
Time to take your meds, scum.

best tactical rpgs:

1. xcom ufo defense
2. jagged alliance 2
3. toee
4. dungeon rats
5. underrail

fuck jrpgs

That's why it's backwards, yes.

>Shakespeare bad
Leave

>thaco is not your fucking armour class
What the fuck are you even talking about? The problem lies with all equipment, not just weapons.

"Game Movie" videos on Youtube literally consist of showing a view minutes of each gameplay segment and a few boss fights with every FMV and every dialogue.
Here's a comparison between an "all cutscenes" video of Sonic Heroes versus a "Sonic Heroes the movie" video.

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There is no problem with any equipment why does your brain not work. All equipment affects your chance to hit or your chance to be hit. You're just crying that weapons and armour aren't the same, shockingly BECAUSE THEY AFFECT DIFFERENT CALCULATIONS. Weapons affect your chance to hit, so pluses are good. Armour affects your chance to be hit, so negatives are better. A +1 sword gives you +1 to hit. A +1 armour gives you +1ac, which subracts 1 from your thaco which is what affects your chance to be hit.
reeeeeeeeeeetardo

>You're just crying that weapons and armour aren't the same
Are you retarded? They function the same exact way when it comes to the contradiction between enchanted gear and the associated calculations.
>A +1 sword gives you +1 to hit. A +1 armour gives you +1ac
Which is represented on your character sheet as numbers getting lower. 1 AC is better than 2 AC, but a +2 armor is better than a +1 armor. This is a contradiction.

>Srpg being the same thing as rpg
I know you're probably mentally impaired since you can't seem to figure out what I'm even trying to tell you but different genres of video games exist.

It's not a contradiction, we've been through this, you're retarded. They're not the same thing, ac is not thaco, chance to hit is not the same as chance to be hit, get the fuck outta here holy shit son.
Your character sheet does not represent any weapon improvement as a lower number, at all, at any point. Because it is a calculation that is YOURS, so higher is better. A better weapon will result in a character sheet showing a higher modifier to chance to hit and higher damage. Thaco is not a calculation that is yours, it is a calculation affecting the enemy, which is why lower is better. Fucking hell lad how did you get through school. AC is not something you even see in thaco editions of d&d, it's shit you're making up, you only see your thaco.

>but different genres of video games exist.
When it suits you, I guess.

>Thaco is not a calculation that is yours
Yes it is.
Anyway, going to stop replying to your stupid ass since the argument I'm making was proven right decades ago. They got rid of all that negative bullshit because it was contradictory and stupid. Don't even bother replying. I won't read it.

THAC0 is attack but backwards, AC is AC but inverted
You've been at this for a couple of hours, schizo

>Being this stupid
Are dark souls, persona, and romancing saga the same genre?

>AC is not something you even see in thaco editions of d&d

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>Armor class is not something you see in to hit armor class 0 editions of end
Dude what

redpill me on gold box games is the combat actually good or is this hipster nostalgia

>and already proved you don't have to neuter the rules for a good experience in video games.
ToEE did exactly that and it was STILL a broken and buggy mess with shit encounter design after the fact.

It was a broken and buggy mess because it's a Troika game. It also has much better combat than any D&D game.

>It also has much better combat than any D&D game.
Not an accomplishment.

>better combat than any D&D game.
*blocks your path*

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>SaGa
>harder than old-school Wizardry

The last time I played a SaGa game, enemies were literally only able to do 1 damage to me, so I don't know what alternate universe you live in.

>Not an accomplishment.
??? GoldBox/SSi games have better combat than most RPGs.

*walks around you as your pathfinding bugs out and you swing 6 times for one real attack*

About half or more of the spell list is missing, several spells don't function as intended, PrCs don't exist, the majority of combat maneuvers aren't implemented or are implemented for monsters but not for the player, skills basically don't matter for shit, the game gives you fuck all for gear leaving you well under what you should actually have by the levels ToEE plays at until it suddenly drops ridiculously OP shit like Fragarach in your hands, and the majority of the game's encounters take advantage of none of the system's mechanics in favor of spamming you with trash fights full of enemies that do nothing but autoattack. KotC is a straight up better game and it took a paring knife to 3.5 in comparison.

>t. hasn't played Unlimited

>It also has much better combat than any D&D game.
If you're retarded, maybe. Storm of Zehir has better fights than 95% of ToEE and Storm of Zehir isn't even good.

Zoom zoom

>NWN2
>ever good
my fukken sides

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>The last time I played a SaGa game, enemies were literally only able to do 1 damage to me
That's a really interesting statement given how a lot of enemies in SaGa games have skills that outright ignore defense, let alone direct LP damage, various forms of damageless instakills etc.
What does (presumed) HP damage in SaGa games have to do with old school Wizardry either way?
Are you pretending you can't effortlessly wipe the floor with Wizardry enemies? Most of the times they won't even be able to hit you.

Based.

No, it's a broken mess because it's using 3.5 as its ruleset. BRB fucking nearly the entire game in the ass with the simple act of picking save or lose spells and buffs on the Wizard and using them.

>Storm of Zehir has better fights than 95% of ToEE
>SoZ
>Better fights
>When it's just buffing and autobattling anything like all RTwP
>When you can literally import epic level characters that can solo anything barehanded
>When even MoTB with its spirit eater bar bullshit AND epic level enemies with roided stats is literally steamrolled by Okku alone, who's a fighter that also autolevels and you don't even have to command
>NWN2
>Good
Your post has been instantly invalidated

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>What does (presumed) HP damage in SaGa games have to do with old school Wizardry either way?
That person brought up SaGa in response to a previous poster who asked for examples of RPGs where enemies can one-shot you.

Good luck ever completing the final fight of SoZ with that attitude.

Yes, which they can do in a variety of ways, and?

i'd rather not touch the sack of shit called NWN2 lol

>Yes, which they can do in a variety of ways, and?
I can only recount my experience playing Romancing SaGa, which is that for a bulk of it, enemies only did 1 damage to me, even though I went out of my avoid combat, so I should be weaker than I would have had I engaged in combat frequently. I quite the game in boredom.

I have a very hard time believing it's a more challenging game than Wizardry.

yeah all those save or lose spells in low level dnd

>Herald of Zehir
>Hard
Dude please.

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Name a harder D&D vidya boss.

Ah, you're that one guy again.
Sure dude, whatever you say, granted that again, SNES RS is a massive bugfest that is hardly balanced, but please, stop pretending you have any point about bringing up a game you haven't even finished.
Wizardry, especially the classic trilogy, isn't that different, which you'd knew if you actually bothered playing the game more than one hour, but I guess proving you're a dumbass on the internet is more important than actually playing games.

>Sleep
>Color Spray
>Grease
>Glitterdust
>Stinking Cloud
>Slow

You really need to learn how to read m8, confusing three different peoples topics for one person

The King of Shadows in the OC alone is unironically a harder boss than Herald of Zehir, and it's still piss easy since the entire fulcrum of said battle lies in dispelling the level damage done to you in the first phase as soon as the second starts.
Herald of Zehir is literally all buffing and ungabunga, which isn't really hard or unusual since that's all you do in NWN, not to mention that you'll be at level 20 with up to six characters at that point, hardly something you can't handle.
It doesn't have gimmicks either, just a bunch of adds, iirc you can also level drain it to the point it's almost completely harmless.

>Ah, you're that one guy again.
Yes, I'm the guy who was insulted hundreds of times for saying I found SaGa Frontier boring. I was repeatedly told that SaGa was the greatest RPG series ever made, that it had deeper RPG mechanics and more non-linearity than any other RPG ever made/

So I decide to try another SaGa game, to give the series a fair chance, and once again, I'm immediately bored out of my mind. There's nothing of interest here. Combat is braindead. Story might as well be written by a 6-year old. The game doesn't even let me explore, and constantly railroads me into following a completely linear path. Oh, but let me guess, it's supposed to get good 20 hours in?

This shit is more generic than the bottom of the barrel jrpg, so why on earth is it hyped to high heaven?

>Wizardry, especially the classic trilogy, isn't that different,
I'm not the biggest fan of classic Wizardry, but it's a billion times more engaging than SaGa. You are utterly deluded if you think garbage like SaGa can even compare to the dungeon crawling and combat in Wizardry.

>not to mention that you'll be at level 20
You were overleveled.

>You were overleveled.
How can you be overleveled in NWN2? 99% of the xp comes from quests and mandatory encounters.

>WAAAAAH I'M BUTTHURT SOMEBODY TOLD ME I'M A FAGGOT ON THE INTERNET SO I NOW HOLD A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST AN ENTIRE FRANCHISE I HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED
At least try to be subtle about it.

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Because Storm of Zehir is mostly a nonlinear sandbox. Even if you were grinding random encounters it's difficult to get to 20 or higher and that's if you also do every quest.

>I'm not supposed to play the game
Sorry if I actually ended up playing the game, it's hardly possible to end up being underleveled unless you purposedly avoid to do quests for the specific reason to be underleveled during the last boss battle, what with SoZ also having random encounters and all.
This is without mentioning how NWN scales EXP. gain in your favour if you're underleveled too, so it's kind of a bullshit argument to begin with, I could understand it if I told you to import characters at level 30, but I didn't.

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Clicked the thread to see another JRPG retard fight and I wasn't disappointed.

its funny i can remember literally nothing about that game.. and yet when i look at it all i can think is "man that was just garbage!"

Somehow these anti JRPG crusaders are beginning to pop up in WRPGs thread and shitting them up even when nobody talks about JRPGs, hell you can't say one bad thing about a WRPG that people have to bring up JRPGs as some sort of apology, it's really getting on my nerves.

>Herald of Zehir is literally all buffing and ungabunga
>How to immediately get killed by the Herald's near-instant kill melee attacks and the yuan-ti spamming dispels and Destruction

>>How to immediately get killed by the Herald's near-instant kill melee attacks
So we're pretending that Displacement+Greater Stone Skin+Haste+Bless and whatever other buffs on top of the generous amounts of broken items do not exist?
>and the yuan-ti spamming dispels and Destruction
Ah yes, the very same six Yuan-Tis that get almost instantly murdered by any maximized spells like Isaac's Missile Storm, let alone completely neutered by Bigsby's grasping hand, if not bumrushed by your summons before they can do anything.

And this is IF you want to play fair too.

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Find a flaw.

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HoW broke hide in shadows.

If you didn't cheese or grind, the early part of this was just unfair bullshit.

Too easy

>the early part of this was just unfair bullshit.
Eh, it's more or less the same as the average D&D game of the time, loads of trap quests meant to gratuitously assfuck people, and low level D&D being what it is doesn't help.

>the only good thing was Reddit's favourite book series
Really makes you think...

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>Shitting on Discworld
>Frogposter
Sounds about right.

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I don't think so. played all the IE games (aka "the average D&D games of the time), and none of them where nowhere as unfair as this one. it's not so bad once you get the hang of it, but the irritating part is that the modules were made for beginners so I don't know if it was Troika's fault or TSR's.

IE games are casual as far as D&D goes. ToEE is based on an old module.

Well, the IE games are admittedly on the (very) easy side of the spectrum, but they still share the same design more or less.
ToEE being inherently less gentle on you and dropping the real shit day one is on par with the TT campaign is based on.
One thing you must also consider is how turn based ends up being inherently more brutal than RTwP, especially at low level when there's really a lot of commitment to every single action you take in a turn, it seems stupid, but it actually does make a lot of difference.

And it is part of the module as the giant frogs encounter is infamous for raping newbies.

fair point. I just hated all the missing attacks and getting swallowed by some giant frogs you have no way to avoid using stealth.

Were they right?

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Codexers are never right, they're a bunch of goody two shoes faggots, most of them are also massive casuals.

It's the best edition.

The fort frogs are infamous, yeah, and missing most of your attacks is really your bread and butter for low level D&D, turn based system admittedly makes it a lot more tedious than RTwP.

Bubbles was a goon faggot also most codexers use cheatengine.

codexers are always right

I really want to make some kind of ripoff of DF Adventure mode with d&d rules but holy shit if their OGL isn't ridiculously anti-creator

>Troika was full of sexists and racists who deserved to lose their jobs btw. They came across as one of the last refuges of 90s brogrammer culture; a middlebrow 3D Realms. -RPG Codex

This can't be real

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it isn't he's just making fun of them for being faggots

Didn't the codex love MSDOS blobber shit more than anything else?

You never know with the Codex.

rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codex-retrospective-roguey-dismantles-white-privilege-in-tim-cains-temple-of-elemental-evil.93448/page-5#post-3425249
the poster is a trumptard now, just goes to show how identity politics are for retards

why is jrpg discussion allowed on codex

Holy fuck it's real
I'm screencapping the shit out of this for both shitposting and posterity.

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>In comparison to its peers, ToEE's combat content is only marginally better than the original Icewind Dale without the expansion. Icewind Dale II and Baldur's Gate II trounce it pretty fiercely. This is funny considering how Tim Cain slammed the Infinity Engine games before release ("D&D is a turn-based game...The sheer amount of effort to convert it to real-time would effectively invent a new game system, and what is the point of using D&D rules if you are just going to change its basic tenets?").* And now, ever so appropriately, he's working for someone who lead designed a better D&D game than he did. This is for the best, considering he still believes that the only problem with ToEE is the writing.*

>"ToEE was very difficult for the first few levels, but once I hit about 4th level, it was as easy as any of the IE games. I had more options than I did in the IE games, but that didn't suddenly make ToEE brutally difficult.*

>I use my mind more in a single game-day of Pikmin than I did in most ToEE battles.*"--JE Sawyer, lead designer of Icewind Dale II and Pillars of Eternity; currently Tim Cain's boss

Sawyer is absolutely right. ToEE is not hard at all and becomes easier the more you level up and most of the options in 3.5 are absolutely useless bullshit. I accidentally turned on maxed NPC/enemy HD and still steamrolled the game with no real effort.

because codex is for faggots

>ToEE is not hard at all and becomes easier the more you level up and most of the options in 3.5 are absolutely useless bullshit.
That's D&D in a nutshell, it's an inherent problem with the system (if you consider it a problem given that by nature all RPGs become progressively easier), after the first four level the snowballing is very real and can't be stopped.
The fun stuff is, for all his boasting and roasting, his games aren't really any different, if anything they're also less fun to break.

>(if you consider it a problem given that by nature all RPGs become progressively easier)
They don't, though.

They totally do.
D&D is one of the most obvious cases, for a lot of reasons, be it feats, spells or simple statistical snowballing, if it weren't the case nobody would bitch about quadratic wizards and the likes.

There are plenty of RPGs that become harder as it goes on rather than having an X-COM difficulty curve.

any rpg that lets you minmax can be broken

gothic 2... the most flawless game and best rpg of all time... cannot be broken. even if you have 200 str when you go to fight the dragons, you still need to summon demon

i can't remember what i did in gothic 2 to kill dragons but it involved autism
also strafing black trolls

Can I do the moathouse at level 2 in this game? Tired of questing in Hommlet.

I mean why not play actual tabletop instead?

Because computers are great at calculating things for a fight that would take up an entire session.

Because all D&D rulesets are objectively bad and detract from the experience.

>Because all D&D rulesets are objectively good
FTFY

>only honest attempt at a D&D game
You've never played Planescape: Torment.

torment doesn't implement the rules very well, which is a good thing

PS:T is dishonesty incarnate and tries to be a JRPG

dragon rider flight sim on atari ste was rad.

How are you, friendly dishonest poster from you know where general?
Unfortunately it seems Groetus has finally come for it. But alas, rebirth is also part of the cycle, so said an enlightned dwarf...

>tries to be a JRPG

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post the other ones, you know the one with the ring from Dark Souls etc, I forgot to save them all and more keep popping up

So I'm planning on play this, but I wanted to know if there's an unofficial patch or something to fix all the bugs I've heard about

moddb.com/mods/temple1

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I have played Dnd since DnD. like 1e, basic, whatever you wanna call it.

THAC0 isn't hard to understand.
You are right.

BUT you are also a tard if you are failing to understand how it is also unnecessarily abstract or confusing as opposed to a simple "bigger is ALWAYS better" approach.

It's an inherently backwards way of looking at something:
>How big of a jug is this?
>Well, you see. To fill a 1 litre jug, i'd need to pour out 400ml of this jug.

It's weird to put it like that. get it? Not HARD, WEIRD.

Oh, and to add to that - the current +1 to your armour literally does the exact same thing as subtracting 1 from the enemy "to-hit"

end result is the same roll requirement to hit you.

ergo THAC0 is the same as current D&D AC, but just a weird expression of it. to the point where i'm really not sure WHY they set the system up like that in the first place.

Depends on the games. Low level D&D like in Pool of Radiance and Curse of the Azure Bonds is still fun (replayed the games earlier this year.) High level is where they kinda drop the ball, as they have no problems throwing 20-30 enemies at you including dragons and all sorts of casters.

Using the Goldbox Companion gets rid of the shortcomings they might have otherwise, though.

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