Fix MMOs

Make spreading info on public internet a bannable offense

The only reason wikis and spoiler sites are a problem with most modern MMOs is because they're made by big companies who use NDA-free betas to sell the game.

I fucking hate this attitude, and it's so wrong. First of all, NOBODY is forcing you to check the wiki, and the amount of people that actually do that shit is probably lower than 10%. Hell, probably closer to 3%, honestly.
Not to mention that games are still enjoyable after you know them. I loved Vanilla WoW and I know most of the zones by heart, and enjoy it each time I play it. Same can be said for TES, DaS, the list goes on. Knowledge is a fucking spook.

to fix mmos just make them glorified treadmills and thats that
oh wait...............

Wiki's are only a problem if the game is cookie cutter as fuck.

nobody's forcing ANYONE to, but they fucking do it anyway. And devs make games with that braindead audience in mind. Fuck you for trying to defend it. If you think it's that low, I dare you to go play OSRS.

Delete instancing
Delete queues
Don't punish the DPS for doing their job "too well" by making mobs instagib them when aggro changes over
I'm a huge faggot and think the standard "tank holds aggro by pressing taunt" is a dumb system but fuck if I know how I'd change it
Give crafting/non-combat players (assuming they're available to begin with) material to work with and don't blow literally everything they can do out of the water with event gear or, god forbid, gachashit
Make the content actually fun, not just a slog to go through because there's a cool reward at the end
Don't bother with pvp unless you have people dedicated to balancing it separately from pve
Have reasonable gold sinks so in-game market values don't jump to 1m gold/dosh/shekels/etc for basic shit
Power creep is inevitable but if anything you are considering adding is "does what [old thing] does but better" then don't
Make combat more than doing rotations and quoting higher numbers than the enemy

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>require massive time investments, say goodbye to your real life
>forced hardcore
>no fun allowed
>reward streamers/e-celebs
>make crafting GOOD but not TOO GOOD
>tedium only, anything beyond kill quests is too complex
>no plot, nothing's going on in the world, no reason to explore
Yea Forums designs MMOs-threads, everyone. Because the only way forward is to go back to Everquest.

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People don't want MMOs anymore, they want instant gratification like doing some sick snipes in Fortnite for 10 minutes and then calling it a day. No one wants to actually take time and build their character over months anymore. We live in a society

Focus less on structured content and more on player driven world building.

Seriously, why the fuck is it 2019 and there hasn't been a fantasy version of EVE when it comes to empire building

This, and most people that use them do so after they're at least somewhat familiar with the game. Even the autists in the From community still do a blind run the first time around, it's only natural. And MMOs are so huge that there should be no fucking way you have everything learned after a month in a beta. People are STILL discovering shit about OSRS TODAY.

I think people are craving social RPGs, but nothing in the MMORPG space, the genre that was spawned to be social online RPGs, offers that experience, probably why most people went back to tabletop.

>I dare you to go play OSRS.
OSRS is made exactly for those type of people, so it's a bad example. But if you think all those moms and dads playing WoW are going to sleep reading wikis for how to min-max their character, you're fucking delusional. Again there is nothing wrong with knowing things. This is a fucking entry-level Yea Forums spook.

The only way around this is having future MMOs be based on a streaming platform like Stadia. No user client/install means nothing to mine, meaning things remain super sekrit.

Though this will never happen because of the latency problems that come with vidya streaming. Latency is fine in a slow-paced singleplayer game, not so much in a multiplayer game.

>Let's have a serious thread about what you would do to make sure upcoming MMOs aren't shit.
Ban incels
Ban thots
Ban trannies
Ban anyone who is more interested in gaining friends or gaining attention than they are in getting good.

>I'm a huge faggot and think the standard "tank holds aggro by pressing taunt" is a dumb system but fuck if I know how I'd change it
Make tanks have to physically stand in the way of caster classes to defend them from attacks. I like how Reinhardt works in OW, it's a good design. I think the
>lol boss is dumb so he won't target the squishy casters
Is getting old, way too old.

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I haven't heard any suggestions from you, fag

Go back to being fucking open world RPGs and not these fucking chink grinders.

The best online RPG experience i've had in over a decade was fucking GTAO RP.

Aggro shouldn't be trivalized as a mechanic, if the DPS is not targeting whatever the tank setup as the priority target he totally should get crushed after a few seconds unless he stuns the enemy or loses aggro somehow.
Have the tank hold aggro via damage but give him a beefy threat multiplier, that way tanks don't have to look up online what ability does more aggro they just look at the numbers popping up.

>The only way around this is having future MMOs be based on a streaming platform like Stadia. No user client/install means nothing to mine, meaning things remain super sekrit.
Holy shit, that's actually a benefit of streaming I never imagined. And probably the only one anyone can think of.

It would be nice if we can finally evolve past fucking everquest AI that has plagued the genre and adopt something like Monster Hunter AI and combat.

Aggro is an artifact based on the fact that every major MMO out there uses the same monster AI from everquest, tank should be a character archtype, not a role.

MMO clients have used content streaming almost a decade now, why do you think the altasloot exploit in WOW doesn't work anymore?

>no personal loot, whatever appears in the mob window is objectively what the mob had on it
>no level scaling for PCs and NPCs
>no item scaling
>no hp/damage scaling for number of people nearby
>no cash shop
>no sharding/megaservers
>no phasing
>no instance difficulties, every instance has one original difficulty
>no flying mounts
>no transmogrification
>datamining punishable by death

>Is getting old, way too old.

The whole genre is way too old. We are still using features and systems that were implemented 20 years ago when the limitations that mandated those features no longer exist. For example, MMO combat has no business being as shitty as it is in current year.

I mean, when was the last great innovation in MMO design that all others copied? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head is Public Questing from Warhammer Online which came out in fucking 2007.

>this entire thread
I'm beginning development on an MMO and I'm gonna do my best anons.

Why did the west stop making grindy games?

>leveling is slow enough that hitting max level is a real achievement
Stopped reading right there.

>So what? There should be classes that are 100% tanks or 100% healer? That sounds miserable.

100% healers are already in the game though, and they're Paladins Druids Priests and Shamans. Yes playing one is miserable and you couldn't pay me to play one again in Vanilla

Good luck, user
Be sure to squish all the goldsellers once you're live

I'd join you.

>West stopped making grindy games
No the west stopped making MMOs, too much time and effort when you could make MOBAs and Battle Royals, which have all of the grind and none of the infrastructure.

>casting with weapon drawn
>demon hunter
>rifleman
WoW had broken promises since day 1

>do something else while i play
you a dumb nigga

That's actually one of the first issues that came up. What we wanna do is make something that was as fun to play as WoW Legion was, mechanics wise, while still somehow trying to keep the feeling of what WoW Classic was, and by all costs absolutely avoiding anything XIV does.

We're still mainly just drawing up classes on a whiteboard right now since we're a small team, but we'll figure it out. Somehow.

Please no fucking fetish races and tranny gear. It's fine if races are all slutty, but fetish races like cat girls and shit are fucking immersion-breaking garbage.

MMORPGs should be about an actual living world not just combat and endgame. The "side content" like crafting, exploring, and what people would consider immersion/roleplaying elements shouldn't always take a backseat.
Throw out the whole themepark or sandbox debate because both sides have merits and both have weaknesses.
Keep classes simple and straightforward and give players options to customize instead of pushing complexity = fun or throwing so many random passives and gear choices that all add up to the same cookie cutter builds they might as well not exist.
Balance PvP and PvE separately and include a commitment to both camps instead of making it seem like they should be against each other.
For the love of god let your players create content, give them the tools to autism it up inbetween content updates so you can actually take the time needed instead of rushing shit out the door.

>by all costs absolutely avoiding anything XIV does.
So you are just ignoring anything of merit because it's XIV related?

see
As far as character design goes, we wanna be the Tekken of mmos, aka you're gonna be dripping with testosterone or you're gonna be hot as fuck. No cats though, none of that bullshit. We do have a neat idea for a race of golems though, made of rocks and shit, which would play into elemental weaknesses, a system we really wanna use.

If XIV did anything of merit we'd consider it.

read this
docs.google.com/document/d/1XfTt_Q795XvZa2t2gAahfF5G3zp56n04oTALPvNAsFM

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>We're still mainly just drawing up classes on a whiteboard right now since we're a small team, but we'll figure it out.
Look at Blizzard's old video about how they designed each class, it's incredibly informative despite its brevity.

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I love those videos. I was even a buddy with Mark Kern for a bit, but he blocked me like a bitch over his rampage about online bullying. Which leads into "moderation" for our game.

Imagine the Burrows meets MW2 lobbies.

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>and by all costs absolutely avoiding anything XIV does.
Some of the positioning mechanics in XIV are quite good though, they require you to constantly be aware of your position rather than just facerolling your rotation.

>We do have a neat idea for a race of golems though, made of rocks and shit, which would play into elemental weaknesses, a system we really wanna use.
Don't fucking do this, user, meme races never work and everyone hates them. Whether it's gnomes in Vanilla or whatever, it's always a bad fucking idea. Just make normal humanoid races, and keep the number low, like 4-6 max, and don't be shy about giving each race real strengths/weaknesses. Initially for example, Blizzard was going to make it impossible for nelf females to play druids, since all the druids were males, and so males would be locked out of the warrior/hunter rules since that's how night elf society works. But they ultimately gave up and said fuck the lore. Don't do that.

I still believe that what made WOW popular in the first place was the 1-60 content everyone bitches about today, only 10% of all players in vanilla actually hit 60, and vanilla ended with 7m subs, and subs didn't start flatlining until after WOTLK introduced ways to skip leveling, like RAF, Hierlooms and Dungeon Finder

I also remember the biggest complaint from players back during the Vanilla-WOTLK days was that the only thing to do at end game was raid

Honestly if there was a way to cure DPS tunnel vision in general that'd be beneficial.
Combat should have ebbs and flows to it and let people adjust for their surroundings. I'd consider XIV BLM one of the best caster dps classes I've ever played because it's straightforward, but "optimizing play" requires a strong focus on positioning yourself and limiting movement through understanding mechanics.

>Some of the positioning mechanics in XIV are quite good though, they require you to constantly be aware of your position rather than just facerolling your rotation
That's true, but honestly WoW does a better job of constantly keeping you on your toes anyways. XIV would be a lot better if it wasn't so damn slow, and they give you an hour to get out of the way. In fact the only good dungeon was that one with the boss where you end up playing a variant of Bop It.

It's not meme races for the sake of having a meme. We're really trying to get a system of rock/paper/scissors, but with elements. Gnomes are a fucking dumb idea and no one ever plays them anyways, but the point would be if you wanna go hardcore, you have to hunt down resistance gear depending on what race you are.

Also this, no skipping levels. You either do the grind or do something else.

WoW was lightning in a bottle, it was perfect timing and a very casual game to get into. Regardless of what anyone thinks the casuals are the ones who hold up MMOs as nobody on the planet can create content fast enough to appease the hardcore audience.
WoW was more casual than any other MMO on the market, had an established IP with the success of WC3 helping to advertise the game (literal in-game banner ads), and it just worked on everything under the sun. Accessibility and ease of entry.

That's absolutely true, I was one of those players too. Like I was 12 when I got Vanilla, right on launch, too, and despite playing for most of the two years or however long it was, I only dinged 60 once, and as soon as I got my epic mount and did a few UBRS runs I basically went straight into making an alt. The most satisfying part for me was just being there in the world, slowly leveling up, meeting new people, getting ganked and ganking back. I thought raids were incredibly fucking dull, and this was before I even knew as a kid that the gear would all be moot if a new expansion came out.

an algorithm that randomly generates new zones populated by randomly generated resource locations and monsters with random abilities, strengths, and weaknesses so maps can't be graphed and enemies can't be catalogued long term. have minor zones be randomized per day and more difficult zones per week / month

The way to get rid of DPS tunnel vision is to get rid of the trinity and give monsters good enough AI and mechanics where they actually target different people and not the steel wallnut of armor spamming taunt.

>give monsters good enough AI and mechanics where they actually target different people and not the steel wallnut of armor spamming taunt.
The key way to do that would be to just lower the amount of aggro the tank can have. Keep the tank on his toes with positioning and his rotation, and keep the DPS on their toes. Like in Vanilla, how some DPS would have to stand still because they were taking too much aggro.

There is nothing wrong with the trinity and every action MMO I've played to this day has had so many issues and bland as fuck combat that's just spammy to warrant being called "action".

Almost all of these ideas are terrible and a fantastic example of why consumers shouldn't be in charge of development.

can you gice some examples of social onilne rpgs, sounds like something i would enjoy playing

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Minecraft? You want Minecraft?

I agree, it's lawyers that get their jobs through nepotism that should be in charge of game design.

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i was thinking something with actual gameplay

why not play dauntless? It has monster hunter combat

People fail to realize that MMORPG are appealing to multiple audiences at once and instead hyperfocus on the specific autistic thing they enjoy and try to base an entire game around it. Which defeats the entire purpose of an MMORPG anyway.

Go try the Classic LOTRO that's available, or wait for WoW Classic. Both require a sub, though. Don't fall for the FF14 meme, it's instanced garbage with a cash shop, as soulless as nu-WoW.

guy really likes world of warcraft.

>Lotro
>After it was butchered to try and become an even bigger WoW clone
That game did not need fucking talent trees, I swear every time I hear someone praise vanilla wow they are also huge fans of everything else that's shitting up this entire genre.
Almost like Vanilla WoW was the beginning downward spiral of MMORPGs.

>t. neet with too much time on his hands
fug off nolifer most people have life and don't want to spend "3-5 hours minimum" in dungeons

This just isn't true at all. Most of the ideas I have for an MMO certainly take in account players that don't want to do a specific thing (like raiding), which is why I'm a big advocate for side activities and professions that have a similar payout. Maybe the payout shouldn't be the same, like having gear, since most of these people don't care about gear anyway. But for example, imagine if in WoW items could be earned from raiding, but transmogs could only be made through professions, and it'd be hard work. I guarantee you most casual players would feel way more satisfied about spending a few hours every day working their profession to get some neat transmog than being forced to do the same raids like a retard because that's basically the only content there is for you. Well, and shitty pet battles.

Stop making XIV sound complex, its your standard ability rotation that every other trinity based MMO has, having 20 buttons to press to do one decent attack doesn't make it more interesting, you're still just a DPS turret that occasionally has to move, sure everquest style combat was the standard for 20 fucking years in MMOs, but games have evolved past that shit back in the 00s, the only thing stopping developers from developing something new is because they're all lazy hacks.

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Those kind of dungeons should have their place, just in the hardcore scene.

It should be people who design video games who should be in charge of video game design.
You can have polls, but should also have agency to discard any retarded ideas like every idea OP listed.

I gave him what he asked for, autist, why the fuck are you sperging out about talent trees? You want me to recommend him to go play games that are dead, you stupid fucking dog?

Because dauntless isn't an MMO, and I already play monster hunter.

The fuck, 3h hours is perfectly fine even if you aren't a no-lifer. How long do you want to play a game for, 30 minutes? Seriously, what do you want?

>having 20 buttons to press to do one decent attack doesn't make it more interesting,
That is literally not what Black Mage is and just goes to show you'd rather hate something because it's from XIV. Being a DPS turret that has to focus on movement is better then being a DPS that suffers zero penalty from movement meaning there is no thought in your position over an encounter just tunnel vision your rotation while following mechanics.

Which is bog standard for any WOW clone boss design?

just make consistent uninstanced world and niche filling classes with neutral factions

appealing to normies should never be part of MMO game design, they will never be more than a tourist in the genre

>since most of these people don't care about gear anyway
Literally everyone cares about gear and that's what started welfare gear and the entire trend of things like LFR.
Casual players were frustrated they felt like they didn't get to obtain rewards from X part of the game because they didn't put the time commitment or have friends to run it with, that leads to dungeon finders and welfare gear to push them into endgame.
You are still thinking from strictly your own perspective then building a game around it, for example I will never understand why someone wants to play the sims in ESO and just collect furnishings and decorate houses all day to the extent of paying real money for it. However they love doing it and they are a happier player than I am just decorating houses.

Except, here's the thing
>most modern mmos are bad and people are leaving them for other games
>most older mmos were better and had more audience engagement going by numbers, and they featured many of the things OP listed
You honestly just sound incredibly salty. You haven't listed any ideas, and it's pretty clear that the people in charge of WoW and every other clone that's come out since 2004 aren't any better at any of this and go by things that are far removed from game design. Like, yeah, you can go by psychological inclinations to see what would make people more "engaged" for half an hour, like getting bamboozled by gambling RNG, but that isn't going to keep players long term which no psychology 101 major is going to help you solve. And don't tell me I'm wrong, I read as much as I can about these people and what they think, and watch every speech they give at GDC and other places just to try and understand what the fuck they're thinking. And what they're thinking is invariably trying to copy things that work for mobile games because they're 10-20 minutes experiences to try and apply them to games that are meant to last potentially decades.

Yeah if you ignore the 400 addon prompts telling you exactly where to go while you make sure to juggle your single builder and spender rotation.
Do you honestly think WoW has better raiding or class design than XIV?

This, appealing to normies is the worst thing you can do.

Not saying MMOs shouldn't be casual, no one wants to fucking camp lower guk for spawns again, but at the same time trying to create a game that appeals to everyone you appeal to no one.

"normies" are the bread and butter of most games, MMOs included. Marketing to the "I'm HaRdCoRe" audience is a great way to get Wildstar'd or LawBreaker'd

So are you just going to ignore any modern MMO that's shown growth since 2004 because it's not WoW's 10 million number?
Are Fortnite and LoL the greatest games ever made then?

>Because the only way forward is to go back to Everquest.

Ironically right, we need hardcore old-school style MMOs.

WoW is bleeding subs and down the shitter and its still a better game than FFXIV will ever be

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my bad, i thought dauntless was an mmoi tried the demo for FFXIV, i got to level 30 conjurer and 20 on Botanist and i liked it, but then i just got bored

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You know that's a real game right?

agree with all except the last two, the first is completely retarded and the second is pointless

Whatever you say pal.

>appealing to normies should never be part of MMO game design, they will never be more than a tourist in the genre
Blows my mind how WoW missed this. The hardcore scene should have had raids to themselves, the casual scene could have even had a fucking Pokemon Go style app to find new pets and do pet battles and shit.

Everybody wins.

Just like old-school style arena shooters, if people actually wanted shit like that P1999 and EQ's servers wouldn't be catering to a couple of hundred people maximum. Nor would every old-school arena shooter (and there have been multiple attempts over the last few years) fail completely

>So are you just going to ignore any modern MMO that's shown growth since 2004 because it's not WoW's 10 million number?
They haven't even come close to reaching WoW's numbers despite the market at the very least doubling ever since, and I'm being modest. Basically everyone has a toaster capable of playing MMOs now.
>Are Fortnite and LoL the greatest games ever made then?
What does one have to do with the other, you disingenuous faggot? Are Fortnite and League good at appealing to all sorts of players? Absolutely, that's why they have such huge numbers. And that's why MMOs die, because they have no idea what the fuck they're doing, they aren't even trying to appeal to one audience specifically, they're just terribad.

Imagine saving that edit and thinking it was funny.

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what happened to wildstar, i remember it being popular

MMOs aren't broke. Yeah, WoW is still a behemoth and it's clone in FFXIV is growing massive too but there are still plenty of other games out there with healthy populations. Hell, even private servers are doing pretty damn good these days.
The only real problem is that people expect their niche games to have 100k+ pops, which is weird since 100k+ would've been unheard of for anything outside of Everquest back in the day.

which one?

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This.
EVE is way too hardcore and way too demanding for a person, who doesn't have all day to play. But it gets some things right:
- rewarding player-owned organizations
- having remote locations that are open for PvP and conquest and have valuable resources
- customization of player-owned factories that allows for automated production of goods
There also good to have:
- randomly generated areas
- advanced AI for monsters, that is capable of learning

It tried appealing to hardcore raiders who loved vanilla wow then died because those people want to play vanilla wow not cowboy scifi in space.

I think both games are shit when it comes to combat, because at the end of the day they're both DPS turret gameplay wailing on a massive HP pool for 5-10 minutes, I would even go as far to say that classic WOW has better gameplay because its designed around dungeons and group synergy and not maximizing DPS on a raid boss, more satisfying to do a hard pull in a dungeon where you have to execute your CC perfectly or your healer dies and your DPS gets feared into another pack, then it is to sit and spam 5 fllavors of fireball on a dragon for 5 minutes straight

It was popular for about a month, then everyone realized the devs missed what everyone liked about vanilla WoW.
Also it had the same caliber of writing as Borderlands so fuck that.

It was never super popular, but they made some super questionable design decisions and fucked the servers multiple times so people were left on empty ones or didn't know which to roll on, so ultimately didn't bother

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>Literally everyone cares about gear
Yes, because it takes a fucking week to reach max level even as a casual, and then there's nothing else to do. You can farm transmogs one day of the week, and otherwise nothing. Of course they're going to care about gear and beg for it when it's THE ONLY THING ON THE MENU.
>You are still thinking from strictly your own perspective then building a game around it, for example I will never understand why someone wants to play the sims in ESO and just collect furnishings and decorate houses all day to the extent of paying real money for it. However they love doing it and they are a happier player than I am just decorating houses.
You're completely fucking wrong, because not only am I the sort of casual that would do that instead of raiding, but I'm also friends with many women that play shit like ESO and GW2 and I understand that variety is possible and good.

Except, here's the thing
>opinion
>opinion
MMOs aren't the thing anymore. Audience decline isn't related to the game itself getting worse, the audience has changed. Why is Fortnite extremely popular? What exactly are you advocating for?
You can't do the same shit for ~15 years and expect people to dig into it the same they did when it was new and fresh. It has nothing to do with change in quality, it has everything to do with new options available to people. It's genre, it's not games.
>And they featured many of the things OP listed
Except they didn't. Your suggestions are In my opinion bad.

>Hey dude remember 40 man raids in Vanilla?
>Yeah, we've got that except rather than being able to carry people, you need to get 40 skilled players
>Oh yeah and the population on multiple servers don't have enough people to possibly make that happen
good luck!

It's almost like just being an online game with chat isn't a marketable trait anymore and there are now dozens if not hundreds of options for people to pick to satisfy their niche with online play included instead of settling for an MMORPG where it wasn't met.

so the problem was catering to raids, that's an interesting way to fail

I fucking always love this.

Even vanilla WOW had servers who lacked a player population to have a raiding scene for 40 man raids, I actually fucking loved those servers because I would get on them, get a small group of hard core players together and go kill onyxia and we were the best geared players on the server just because of that, even ran a few pugs of MC where we just funneled the loot to my elite crew.

Everyone cares about gear because it's what people talk about.
People talked about how cool it was to have Shadowcraft gear in Vanilla WoW, to the point the leather heirloom gear became Shadowcraft to give "everyone" that gear. People want those aesthetics, they want the inclusive feeling they get for having it, but not everyone is going to put the time in to get it. Eventually listening to your audience and playerbase means lowering the bar and easing access into the game.

That was wildstars biggest problem

WOW spent 5 years developing the 1-60 experience using the team's experience with RPGs like D&D (Which they were also writing books for), the first 2 raids, Onyxia and MC, were built in a weekend.

How the fuck is that a problem? If there is a raid that is too hardcore, just don't do it.
Example: there are some raid bosses in Lineage II that take 100+ people to defeat. And on some private servers people didn't do them. Instead, there were other things to do, like farming, PvP and sieges.
Why did Wildstar REALLY fail?

>>opinion
It's not an opinion, you stupid fucking nigger, it's an objective fact. Are you going to say that declining sub numbers is just an opinion?
Oh, no, wait, you're just going to say the problem is it being a "trend", lol.
>Audience decline isn't related to the game itself getting worse, the audience has changed.
Strange, then, how League and Dota 2 continue to boost the same numbers as ever, while WoW's, a far more accessible game, have fucking PLUMMETED.
>Why is Fortnite extremely popular?
Don't know, I don't play it, but I'm sure there is a good reason.
>You can't do the same shit for ~15 years and expect people to dig into it the same they did when it was new and fresh
Again, DOTA, CS, you're just stupid.
>It has nothing to do with change in quality, it has everything to do with new options available to people.
Except that it does and the quality of the games has objectively gone down and can be explained through reasoned arguments that you constantly hear from the community, especially in WoW. Almost every Blizzard video has a dislike ratio nowadays. But yeah, the """game designers""" (that didn't even study for it, lol) definitely know better.
>Except they didn't.
I guess you never played Everquest or Vanilla WoW.

>If there is a raid that is too hardcore, just don't do it.
It's almost like that isn't a very sustainable business practice when the majority of your prospective playerbase just lied about being hardcore and isn't sticking around.

Then wildstar spent all its time developing end game raids BC style, but forgot to actually make the game fun to start playing in.

Make an actual RPG, and then add the MMO part. At least do one, and you're miles beyond current "mmorpg"s

>People talked about how cool it was to have Shadowcraft gear in Vanilla WoW
Yeah, and nobody quit over not having it, are you retarded? It was cool exactly because you first needed to ding 60 and go through hoops to get it. Like seriously, what you're advocating for is retarded. You ever heard of that saying of be careful what you wish for?

please stop saying mean things about wildstar
please

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>you stupid fucking nigger
my sides are in orbit to this reply

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I really don't know how people continue to play MMO's to be quite honest. It's the most tired genre with the most to-formula systems of combat because the neckbeards literally fear for their online lives if their precious triad and quest npc progression changed. This is evidenced by any game that changes this failing spectacularly and dying off before anyone can really get into it.

I don't get it. Why not let this genre move forward and get better. Even the slight deviations like specific DPS classes that operate a bit faster are still within the tired ass old formulas.

I'm not asking for stuff to be braindead hack n slash like pso2 anime battles but at least let things finally move forward.

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Dota 2 and Counterstrike have a very strong singular gameplay style they focus on.
MMORPGs are going for width not depth and thus if someone wants a specific gameplay (like PvP or Raiding) they have way more options now to satisfy that itch then settling for an MMO that might only touch on it.
If you really think that every game developer is retarded and that an MMORPG nowadays can exist with the same population base as something like Dota 2 or Fortnite then you should be working on Star Citizen among similarly deluded people.

I liked the concept of being a builder. The execution of it was horrible though.

Which is a real shame, because doing an entire combat system around telegraphs is a pretty good idea imo.

How do you know that nobody quit over not having it? That as time progressed and gear became more and more of a focus to endgame and getting into endgame that it didn't cause a shift in community perception?
I can say that's what happened because shit like dungeon finder was released, and even stuff like justice vendors.

You just have no arguments, and the way you reply combined with the reaction images you use gives me a real feeling that you're a retarded boomer working on one of these games and trying to justify to yourself why you waste 10 hours a day working on a game everyone hates.

No weekly quests
No daily quests
No cash fucking shop
If you can put it in the cash shop, it should have been in the game anyway
Don't appeal to HUGE XBOX NUMBERS with 12 zeroes, small concise numbers make everything more readable, but also allow for better balancing, and let players have a bigger impact on their builds with small changes.

On the side tho, i don't mind it if you have quests like GW 2 had, their questing system was actually fairly nice, even if i hate the game for what i did to GW 1. But i still prefer just having npcs that craft you fancy shit if you bring them insane ammounts of materials of increadible rarity so you can style of everyone.

>muh streamers
Fuck that, guilds dabbing on everyone makes for fun social politics and people fucking with eachother. For every streamer, there is going to be an anti streamer guild fucking with them. And that is always a joy.

Thats the problem.

If you design the game around 40 man raids, but you cant actually get 40 fucking people to do said raids, then you fucked up.

And thats what happened with Wildstar, they completely fucked up the open world and leveling content, and focused their entire development on end game that most people didn't get to because leveling was fucking boring and terribly designed.

And then when you did get to end game just to get attuned to step into the 40 man raid you had to do a BC style attunement, an attunement system that was gutted out of BC because people progressing on tier 6 content were unable to keep their rosters full because any time someone quit or had to miss a few weeks, you had to not only replace that class, you also had to get the replacement attuned.

if leveling is not fun, why bother doing endgame content?
as someone who played League of legends a good amount of time, the game evolved constantly, new characters, redesigned old characters, new items and constant balance changes is what kept the game fresh

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>no teleporting
>no microtransactions
>no esports
>no instances
that's it

Look, I get it man. Wildstar really did look promising, but you have to admit that the execution wasn't very good.

>we need hardcore old-school style MMOs

You mean like Wildstar? Why didn't you play Wildstar user? It's dead and you all didn't play it

user calm your autism, I'm not that other user. I'm just laughing at you just resorting to call him a nigger.

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Because I played Vanilla WoW and was one of those kids that never got to raid, and because I've met thousands of people since, literally thousands, that have talked to me about their experiences, while hearing of NO ONE that quit because they couldn't get x or y gear. Call it anecdotal if you want, but you don't even have an anecdote, just a fucking theory.
>as someone who played League of legends a good amount of time, the game evolved constantly, new characters, redesigned old characters, new items and constant balance changes is what kept the game fresh
There's a difference between adding more content to keep the game fresh and remaking the game. A WoW expansion isn't like adding a content patch, it'squite literaly a new game that invalidates all previous content. There's a reason WoW at present is NOTHING like old WoW, at all.

Because people love to get on their soapbox and demand more hardcore things exist to cater to their hardcore demands, but then don't actually play those games.
Replace hardcore with SJW.

>Lvl soft cap around 40
>Max lvl is 75 and would take atleast a year of grinding to reach max
>Heavy pvp based there gear matters more than lvls, On paper a lvl 75 can beat 10 lvl 40s alone. But one lvl 40 person with BIS gear and bis ultra rare gems/enchantment can 1v1 a lvl 75 person who has standard gear
>PVP dungeons were you fight with others inside the dungeon over treasures etc, but you have to teamup with other groups to beat bosses
>runescape questing
>You're no one in the lore, just some random pleb who's exploring the world.

>no teleporting
Nah, teleporting is fine if its costly and requires you to build around it.

My favorite thing to do back in EQ was to discover all the druid rings so I can teleport people to them, like some kind of nature guide.

I agree with most points you listed, just not sure about players losing equipment, being a wowbabby.
I think hybrids should exist, but they'd have to pay the hybrid tax (doesnt heal as much as a healer, doesn't burst as much as the dedicaced burst class,...)
I'm strongly in favor of dungeons that are hard to navigate. Imagine procedurally generated dungeons, if the technology was there it would be the best so you'd have to actually explore it each time.
Biggest gripe I have with modern MMOs is their shitty overarching storylines, I don't fucking care one bit about it, I hate being forced through these and being a "hero" even though I did nothing to deserve it and there's hundreds of "heroes" in the same world as me. Devs should only focus on worldbuilding and well-written storylines, and let players create their own stories in that setting.

I kinda agree. Though t*h I'd just like a good open world MMO with a dangerous world that forces people into groups and with crafting being somewhat important, interesting new mechanics would just be added goodness.

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FFXIV isn't actually big at all anywhere except Yea Forums. The whole idea that the game is massive is only spread on this site. The truth is that if you actually look at the steam numbers it's about as successful as BDO and ESO which is middling at best.

>leveling is slow enough that hitting max level is a real achievement
stopped reading here
play a single player game if that's what you want

>How the fuck is that a problem? If there is a raid that is too hardcore, just don't do it.
Yes, people didn't. Having no players is why it failed

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>calling someone a nigger on Yea Forums
Wow, I'm blown the fuck out, amazing, I'm sure you're not the guy that was also lying out of his ass and trying to avoid making any argument for how a game SHOULD be despite criticizing formulas that worked for the best MMOs of all time.

>Counting solely Steam numbers for any of those games.

You're a zoomer, aren't you.

>My opinions are objective fact.
Sure man, and implementing item loss on death, 3 hour dungeons, lack of class hybridization, grinding questlines and removal of story elements are objectively good ideas.
>How are these free games with huge E-sports presences doing well when a subscription based game in a dying genre isn't?
I guess that's going to be a mystery forever.
>The game quality has objectively gone down
The game quality has subjectively gone down, numbers decline because people aren't playing MMOs anymore. Numbers decline because justifying a subscription when there are a shit ton of FTP games is difficult.

I've played ultima online, everquest (a little) and Vanilla WoW. There are things I miss, but what you posted in OP is retarded.

I'm 26

>You are no one in the lore
i like this
>Heavy PVP based
I thought MMORPG PVP was always garbage and poorly balanced

>no instances
Awful

Thats the thing though about MMORPGs, PVP is never balanced, but MMORPGs are the place where PVP can be dynamic and interesting, problem is every big MMO except EVE focuses their PVP systems around instanced minigames like CTF and not some multiplayer grand strategy game.

Jesus. In regaurds to your shitty argument anyways, you say that because these types of mechanics worked 10 years ago they should continue now is rediculous. People are playing shitty games like fortnite because its a new trend. There is a reason the same old boring question/skill system in wow is killing the game.

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>turn in collectibles found around the area to create a temporary outpost with a quest unique to that outpost, which often gives you a fun tool to use on nearby enemies so long as you have the quest
>set down mailboxes anywhere for anyone
>build campfires anywhere to give people a 2h +5% health buff
>set down repairbot vending machines anywhere for anyone to use
>set down crafting stations anywhere for anyone to use
>get access to unique raremob hunting quests, multiple per zone, each rewarding a unique character title
>use materials you find on mobs and around the world to build powerup stations which reward 5 of like 100 possible buffs, including a mondo fuckhuge speedboost for two hours, which works while mounted
>have access to some building and natural formation interiors that only settlers can enter
>this is one of four (4) paths your character can take
AHHHH

The execution was 10/10 for MMO standards up until the Primal Matrix
The problem was management, marketing, and the fact that the servers fucking exploded every time a wave of new players came in, spoiling all chances for resurgence

Mmorpg pvp shouldn't be balanced when done right. There should always be someone who puts down more time then you and would automatically be better on paper. But if you teamup with others and uses strategy you can always come on top.

Oh and terrible optimisation at launch

it would be amazing if there was an MMO in which multiple player factions had to fight over the resources of the land, constant PVP and crafting would matter

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Problem is that doesn't translate well to a wide audience which you mostly need to keep a game afloat.
Not many people like watching 1 dude clear out 40 people because he spends 24/7 playing.

Isn't that kind of what Crowfall wants to do?

There is, its called EVE online, problem is EVE online is tedious to play, but leads to the best PVP moments in online games.

>you say that because these types of mechanics worked 10 years ago they should continue now is rediculous
You can't even spell, you retarded nigger. And sure, the good ideas that work can be modernized. What shouldn't be done is to put in new ideas that kill the game like Blizzard did with WoW. At no point did I agree with everything the OP said, and you are truly stupid if you think
>There is a reason the same old boring question
If you meant to say questing, dumb phoneposter, then of course it's even worse now, because they turned it into a singleplayer game. Before questing was a lot more barebones and straightforward, basically grinding with some flavor text, which at least gave you the freedom to do them at your own pace.

Crowfall is kind of a meme, its more like a more PVP focused fantasy ARK then an MMORPG, where you have different servers that have a lifespan, and during that lifespan you and your chosen faction fight over resources and the top players can keep trophies to take into other worlds.

This literally never works out

i am going to look this game up, but it seems is still in development

>You can't even spell, you retarded nigger
You may be right about that.

>the good ideas that work can be modernized
Isn't that literally what modern WoW has done anyways? I like where it has gotten them so far . Please give me a suggestion as to how you would modernize fucking tab targetting and make it fun. Please.

why?

>no hybrid classes
This is where you fucked up.
Good job putting it almost at the end to force me to read most of your shitpost

EVE Online and Haven and Hearth.

They're not AAA multimillion dollar hits, but they still exist, they just won't ever have mass appeal because they don't have sexy elves and catgirls.

You might want to take a break from Yea Forums m8, this level of anger over this shit isn't healthy.
Might I suggest writing in your journal all the different ways to improve MMOs

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>are objectively good ideas.
I never said they were, nice strawmanning. But I do agree leveling should be slower and instances (for leveling) should be out.
>I guess that's going to be a mystery forever.
Keep finding excuses, lad. I'm sure you'll get to one that works eventually.
>The game quality has subjectively gone down
Subjectively according to millions of people that play the game, lmao. You're so fucking buttblasted it's incredible.
>e. Numbers decline because justifying a subscription when there are a shit ton of FTP games is difficult.
Yeah, strange how none of those F2P MMOs are even close to having WoW's (old) numbers. It's almost as if that has nothing to do with it, brainlet.
>I've played ultima online, everquest (a little) and Vanilla WoW.
Sure you did, that's why you apparently think retail WoW is better than all of them.

>no hybrid classes for baddies and low-effort players
hybrid classes are okay, but they need to be worse at their respective role than pure classes

Hybrid tax is a dumb idea and even the vanilla devs admitted so

lmao noobs why would you loot a maxed out item off of a raid?

In raid you get the component to craft your epic tier.

Then you go to other raids to improve that item and such.

tfw no other game will ever be as good as AO :(

>no bs leveling quests
>difficult content
>twinking
etc

:(

No, the WOTLK devs admitted it, hybrid tax was removed by team B, who was headed by hybrids, specifically a shaman main.

What made classes fun in FFXI was the fact that they were based of a gimmick rather than being confined to a role. This made it fun cause content was balanced around the classes rather than a holy trinity, meaning certain jobs were stronger than others for certain bosses, etc. For example, white mage is the purest healer, but their where situations where you’d take scholar and red mage instead for the utility they offered

Unless a hybrid can do two roles AT ONCE then there is no reason to have a hybrid tax.

Obviously there would be some balance to it. 4 people who spends 5 hours a day on the game would be able to stand up against 1 guy who spends 12 hours a day, but it would be an even match. There would be special systems were the high lvl player would be risking alot by going into 40 peoples alone and the masses would gain a lot by killing that person. There would be guild wars over land etc. If you're a leader and basically the strongest dude in your guild and goes off and dies somewhere it would give other people great oppertunities to conquer and destroy your shit
EVE online but in a standard fantasy mmorpg format would be it

>Please give me a suggestion as to how you would modernize fucking tab targetting and make it fun. Please.
I didn't quit the game over that and I don't know anyone talking about that either. But, no, zones have not been properly modernized. In old WoW the formula was pretty simple
>you go to a new zone
>you're lost, exploring, trying to find your hub
>once you're out you gotta be careful because you might be ganked
>quests send you to the other side of the map so you gotta get there and get back
>being in the hub is a distinct feeling from being anywhere else in that zone because it's your only safe space, and you can see players there from your faction
Now?
>nothing can kill you anyway, so just go wherever you want
>no interaction with players of either faction since even if you are in pvp they might just be in another shard/phase
>quests are spread out with no central hub so you're basically just going around the map with no feeling of exploration or worry or need to plan
>because you have a story, doing it on an alt makes it so you have to wait for the same dumb scenes and lines of dialogue and you can't skip ahead since you need those unlocks
My main gripes with the game are with leveling/zoning/storytelling. I'm sure it's nicer to play a druid now than it was 15 years ago, but that doesn't make it a better game when you fail the essentials.

Its still a dumb idea, precisely for the reasons this dude stated.
Opportunity cost is all thats necessary. If you have to specialize into say, Tanking, you shouldn't be shit at that if it means your Healing and Damage is weak. Otherwise you end up in a situation like vanilla Druids; utter shit

I should've clarified that they absolutely should be able to do more roles at once.

>team B
oh no its retarded

No, hybrid tax was fine, the problem was in BC they added in fucking enrage timers so hybrid tax made people start stacking warlocks mages and rogues

When fucking shadow priests started to out DPS pure DPS classes regardless of spec, there was a fucking problem.

You're level of emotional involvement is a bit concerning. Take five, come back when you have well thought out opinions to express.

Yes, Ion Hozzikostas is retarded, how could you tell.

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While I would agree with on literally the entire second half of your post, you still didn't answer my question. How would the MECHANICS of the game be modernized in a way that is enjoyable to play. I'm not talking about questing/zones/etc. I mean the combat, etc. I agree the way questing is now is shit, I played on some modded server and got ganked and it was actually fun. Ganking/being ganked, looking out for places to do quests and the like were fine. What I can NOT deal with is how this game is using the same fucking shitty old tab targetting system, filled with the same ability system ALL rpgs have used for decades now. Skill trees? Gone. That is the stuff I'd like to see modernized or brought back in a meaningful way.

>i don't have an argument so i'm going to come up with some bullshit reason not to respond
Man up pussy, otherwise stop responding. Is there anything more niggerly than to criticize others and give excuses for why you're not replying? State anything that can be verified by others, cretin, everyone else in this thread has.

So that sounds like hybrid tax was not fine. Also if someone is a dedicated shadow priest and therefore a DPS why is it fair to say they should do less simply because they could also respec into being a healer?

to add to that they should be worse at all roles, not just DPS

Like I said, opportunity cost. If they have to gear and talent into being dps at the cost of healing then its fine to do as much damage as any other dps.

>I mean the combat, etc.
I have no idea, I don't know shit about combat, and it's not my main focus when choosing an MMO. I can't even tell if combat in WoW is better or worse from expansion to expansion because, quite frankly, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Because the hunter can't respec into healer when their class is suboptimal DPS for that patch.

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Its kind of a fundamental thing, user..

What if that person doesn't want to play a fucking healer and wants to play a shadow priest? Is it fair that the opportunity of being a healer means you should suffer even if it doesn't interest you at all?

Entire classes shouldn't be suboptimal for entire patches, but even if they are stop being a FOTM faggot

Clearly not, since I've been getting around fine for years. I don't have a vested interest in learning about it, I don't care about raiding and the only PvP I'm interested in is random world PvP which is basically non-existent at this point.

you said it yourself, simply because they could also respec into being a healer
which warlock for instance cannot do

and why would it be okay for you to switch to healer if your raid comp already has enough healers? How does it help you if you're deep geared into +Shadow Damage and not +Healing?

neutral factions

A warlock could reroll a healer, which is about the same thing in this context.
If I want to play Shadow Priest I want to play Shadow Priest, being told "well you can go Holy if Shadow is bad" is like saying "well you can play Hunter if Warlock is bad".

The reason most mmorpgs fails is because of unoptimized/shitty engines and unexperienced dev teams. There's a reason why world of warcraft and ffxiv is on top and it's not because of the content, since both have been very mediocre since the start. It's because they are really well made games that runs very smooth and feels right on the fundamental levels.

>cool races
>cool abilities
>cool classes
>sexy characters
>story isn't boring or story is nonexistent
>gameplay feels good
I think that's it.

First off to fix mmos we just need to scrap what you have because you are just seemingly wanting to live in some weird nostalgia fever dream of a game that never existed. and everyone complained about the parts that did.

Most important thing to MMOs is simple. Shit needs to run on everything. If it doesnt run on a toaster in some capacity its doomed to fail. MMOs live and die on their community and just having people around to talk and play with.

From there its mostly about solving just standard issues with games. like how to make a bunch of classes that feel different with varied playstyles but are balanced enough that people are not just locked out from being able to play because their class isnt top tier enough. or how to create a crafting system that is deep but not a nuisance.

personally i would love to see more action oriented combat and lots of synergies because classes and skills in general. Varied Races or atleast a very good character creator is also something i would like to see more as i despise when there is just 5 variations of human, made worse when the lore doesn't restrict you to just those races.

Everything else from there on is just icing on the cake baring someone just taking a massive dump on it.

Companies need to stop making games to fit just the genre, They need to go back to when these games were not a checklist of things and trying to fit them together. push for devs to try things new and encourage the ones that do. Bring some passion back into making these games and worlds and maybe just maybe we wont have a genre where every game is exactly the same but the last one is just progressively worse the the previous

Combat really isn't fundemental to a good RPG though, some of the best RPGs to play are fundementally broken.

Except thats a problem when you quantify the entire worth of a class based on their raw DPS, which only became a problem in BC because they implemented enrage timers on all bosses.

Hybrid Tax existed, because DPS doesn't matter, surviving the boss mattered, but in BC the hybrid tax made it so you stacked more pure DPS classes (and warriors) so you could beat the enrage timers on bosses, thus hybrids were benched, which isn't a good thing either.

In reality, the hybrid tax didn't become a problem until enrage timers made it a problem.

>skill tree
what's a skill tree?

user, most people play games like say...WoW and etc. because of the combat, spell casting mechanics and the like. I get it if you are a lore/questing type of person but that is NOT what this thread is about. This thread is aiming to argue and bitch, AND moan about how we think we would change ALL aspects of the shitty genre that is the MMO. Not just one part like zones and instanting/sharding/whatever the fuck you call that.

there shouldn't be distinctions between shadow/holy/etc. in the first place
there should only be classes and sliding scale (or more like sliding triangle) of how good can they be at different roles

Full remake of classic pic related without cash shop and actual bot protection is the only thing that would get me back into MMOs.

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>FFXIV
>Well made
Most people can't even get past the first 20 levels before the cutscenes bore them to death.

Well too bad we are discussing WoW.
Hybrid taxes are retarded because you can't just tell a player "you could be doing X so we are going to nerf what you are actually playing which is Y".

That isn't what he was referring too but your opinion is noted.

I don't really agree, since Vanilla had worse combat than most MMOs out today, yet it was a better game. While the combat matters, it clearly isn't what makes or breaks a game. It's an aspect of it, but not the most important aspect of an MMO.
> I get it if you are a lore/questing type of person but that is NOT what this thread is about.
I'm not though, I just like having adventures in an MMO space. Whether or not my build is optimal or if I'm playing the best class or if I enjoy the "feel" of the combat won't change that. Ultimately if I was playing a game for the combat I just wouldn't be looking for an MMO.

Yes, and hybrid tax meant you only really brought Warriors as MTs. Its not just a DPS problem. You brought druid healers because they brought some useful shit like Innervate but really its because they were least shit in that role not because they were good healers.

If you want Hybrids to work they've got to be as good as their counterparts, but they've got to give something up to be that good. An investment that isn't easily changed. Otherwise its just a case of carrying them

>thread is named "Fix MMOs"
>we're discussing WoW
fuck off
even if it was about wow, this is just another change I recommend to fix it
and yes, I can tell that to a player

Actual gameplay instead of hotbar build-spend combat

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You literally quoted me as I was discussing WoW's Hybrid Tax with another user.
You are a shitty person who shouldn't be making video games then.

There's no fixing MMOs unless you have a huge budget and an amazing team
In terms of money, MMOs aren't worth all the hassle
Why would you make an MMO which will fail 99% of the time when you can divert your resources into making a sure thing?

>SWG
my nigger

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Yeah, Vanilla wow had worse combat because it's an old game. Of course the combat is outdated looking at what can be done today. The combat definetly matters for one, I mean look at why so many people are attracted to shit like fortnite right now. It's got some of the old third person shooter pieces to it, plus a building mechanic built on top. It's the combat that is essential to the game. Along with partnering pieces such as finding temporary loot to buff your character to make it to the end. I also the the style of continually resetting that games like DOTA/LOL/similiar titles(including fortgay) are popular right now. Trust me when I say this, these games will die in 10-18 years because this will grow stale. Just like WoW's combat and design has. That is the sole reason(or at least the main reason) WoW is dead.

>into making a sure thing?
But I have an idea for that, and it's an MMO
>f2p mmo where you can make waifus
>put in as many erp elements as you can
>have a cash shop with many outfits that will get anyone to spend at least $500 a year
There you go, a guaranteed success.

Every game you mentioned was WoW, invluding 14. Are you aware that there are MMOs beyond WoW and its clones?

If you're looking to any era of WoW or any game that uses its core mechanics for serious inspiration then you've lost me already. The world ill needs another hotbar mashin' rhythm game.

Hybrid taxes are only a problem in shitty MMOs like fucking WOW and its retarded clones.

Any other fucking MMO would bring anyone who wanted to come and kill the dragon because they're not fucking stupid enough to instance shit.

And no a fucking druid shouldn't be able to do what a rogue does and a rogue shouldn't be able to do what a fighter does.

You are what's wrong with MMOs today. You think players are entitled to everything and don't have to put thought, effort or compromise into the game. Fuck off, games are supposed to be punishing and you either pick the class whose entire point is damaging and destroying shit or pick a class that can damage and also heal.

Kind of unfair to compare games where combat is the entire draw with games where combat isn't even remotely the draw. I have no idea why you're doing this. You seriously think anyone told a friend to play Vanilla for the combat? Like wtf.

In a niche market, sure
The game will still hemorrhage money though

>Hmm, should I pick the mage/priest/warrior hybrid, or the mage class
>Oh the hybrid can also fly? Why the fuck would anyone play a mage?!

>"Hey dude, you know how we've been playing DnD recently? Did you know there is this game where you can play as your paladin character and use some of the same abilities against boss mobs!?"

What are you on about user?

>you either pick the class whose entire point is damaging and destroying shit or pick a class that can damage and also heal.
Except in the context of WoW you never pick a hybrid and perform both roles at once so the entire purpose of the hybrid tax is moot. Since you have entirely different gear requirements saying that like a Feral Druid should always be worse than a Rogue because it "can" heal is stupid. They are both fulfilling the same role which is DPS, neither of them are going to be healing at all. Why is one getting punished for it?

user, are you crazy? Do you have any idea how much even retarded VNs sell for, or how much SE and ArenaNet make by selling glorified waifu outfits in the cash shop? You're completely underestimating how much sex sells. That new Illusion game was the BESTSELLING GAME on Steam.

FFXIV is more of a single player game than anything with hours and hours of cinematic and single player events you can't even bring other people. That's not what MMOs are about at all.

>Druids can do everything a Mage can do while also doing what a Priest and Warrior can do without requiring the same effort of gearing!

wow crushed the market. All but erased evercuck and instilled a stranglehold on the industry for a reason, friend.
you can't even post an image that's not wow. Give up and go back to your classic thread

Nice zoomer MMO, op.

Here's what you do:
Make oldschool runescape but with good combat, a better scaled world and less grind.

>in general nuker, meele dps, tank and healer is the most effective combo
>however in some bodses this specific debuff is very helpful
>hybrid class is best at using this debuff
>hybrid class is also useful in lowman situations where you dont need a pure role all the time
>consequently, even specialist classes have hybrid options
>hybrid class is now needed and taken without being op or invalidating specialists

That doesn't account for the millions of moms that sat down to play it for 10 minutes and ended up staying until today. People did not choose WoW because it had amazing combat, they played it because it offered an actual world you could explore and interact in with others, and was easy enough for anyone to understand. Like even back when WoW launched, you had way better games to play if your main interest was combat. I would say B&S probably had the best combat of any MMO I've played so far, and you know what, I probably got tired of it faster than ESO or FF14, just because it was so uninteresting in every other way that mattered.

if you want pvp go play overwatch

every game is cookie cutter retard
all the theorycrafting is done and thats why the cookie cutter build is 99% the most efficient / best build.
its literally impossible to not have a BEST unless everything is exactly the same

I'm well aware that waifus sell, believe me
But the costs of servers, maintenance and all that will fuck you up
Even Blizz, with their huge budgets and experience, gave up on MMOs

>Except in the context of WoW
Yeah since they fucked it up and made you rigidly lock into one "spec". Fuck them, the system wasn't perfect but what they did made it worse. On the contrary, they should've get rid of the spec names altogether and just have one big skill tree that you're free to pick what you want from.

thinly veiled camelot unchained post
nice

This user speaks the truth. Games presenting the illusion of choice is a disease and making people think they have options when really it's just a handful of effective builds and people being worse for no reason.
If you provide a different niche that's another story, if you are doing the same thing (such as both builds being DPS) with the same rotation and abilities but talents make one build 10% worse that's not "choice". I really fucking hate when people try to hide behind saying that it's fun when it's mechanically the same exact thing just worse performance.

Biggest thing you need to do is remove linear story based quests and instanced shit and return to open dynamic worlds full of adventures.

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But could you imagine if the game had actually decent combat. Just look at about half the replies in this thread. They are talking about better combat in mmo games. The only people still left playing WoW may just be those moms or whatever(Idk why you keep mentioning moms, as if you're relating to it but whatever no judge) but to say the problem is only the world is not correct. Not entirely at least, and I know because at least for me the reason I quit was because I grew tired of tab targetting and the very terrible and very simplified braindead casting. The combat effects literally every single aspect of the game. You have to fight to get to mats, you have to fight to collect experience or gold, you have to fight to move between zones, you have to fight when you get ganked. If combat is a miserable experience it only drowns the game.

I love posters like you because you act like vanilla wow had anywhere near good balance.
Paladin Tanks were sure beloved in early wow let me tell you.

Action combat is completely shit for countries distant from the data center, tab combat is bearable though. Also with action combat you can never really relax while questing and shit, unless the combat is garbage, so it doesn't fit so much with MMOs.

Make them be actual RPGs again.

Leveling has to be important, long and fun.
End game rushing should be left for the endgame neckbeards.

Not talking should mean that you are at a disadvantage.

EYE politics.

You know I'd agree, but the amount of time it would take to do this would be rediculous. In fact with a massive multiplayer platform I'd say it's almost impossible to constantly keep up to date with all the intricacies. I agree though, I would like a better "adventuring" system instead of the shitty questing system in place in 99% of mmos.

solution to poor balance is guess what
make effort and balance it better
not take out the systems that make it difficult

It's almost like their focus on specs over classes was a way to fix balance by giving each spec a niche instead of saying "Priests are stuck healing, Warriors are stuck tanking". Have they gone too far with pruning? Sure, but the spec focus over thinking of a class as a package was a better choice.

> Obviously there would be some balance to it. 4 people who spends 5 hours a day on the game would be able to stand up against 1 guy who spends 12 hours a day, but it would be an even match. There would be special systems were the high lvl player would be risking alot by going into 40 peoples alone and the masses would gain a lot by killing that person. There would be guild wars over land etc. If you're a leader and basically the strongest dude in your guild and goes off and dies somewhere it would give other people great oppertunities to conquer and destroy your shit
It won't be good, and I can explain why. Give me 20 min.
> EVE online but in a standard fantasy mmorpg format would be it
I don't like when people bring up this argument. Setting doesn't matter.

also cookie cutter isnt even the fucking main issue here
its the mmo community itself that decided min/maxing try hard is the only way to play even back in vanilla wow kevin jordan the class designer created hybrids and specifically made them weaker than pures because they have more utility in this chase for min/maxing autism we get what retail is today a game thats pruned and homogenized because the community WAILED FOR YEARS about how their class wasnt the number 1 healer or dpser

EVERY SINGLE ISSUE thats wrong with both WoW and the genre itself is entirely the fault of the mmo community they asked for years for the games to be where they are now and all of a sudden they blame the companies for giving them what they asked for
fuck them

make leveling slow, hard and tedious so that by the time you hit the cap you kniw how to fucking play your class. punish under utilizing your class kit and reward intricate knowledge.

>tfw the timeline of game design is so far away from thus MUDs and actual tabletop games of oulde that the oldest-school examples of RPG design devs are working with are fucking Bioware games

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Well yeah Blizzard did listen to their community and it "ruined" their game. That's the biggest laugh of the entire genre. People blame Blizzard for not giving a shit, but 90% of the features people say ruined WoW were requested by it's own playerbase.

I get what you're saying, but I honestly don't know what they could to change the combat apart from completely remaking the game. I actually think I enjoyed combat in Vanilla because it was slower and had a weight to it, combat in the retail version now just feels completely weightless. It's also made me a worse person because I expect everything to die in a few seconds, and when I spend more than that on a single mob, I already feel it's taking too long. Like these are all these rares spread out throughout the zones, but I've gotten to the point where I just ignore them because I know it takes about a minute to kill one, and there's zero difficulty involved. But I'm not sure if that's really the combat I have a problem with or the game being made so fast and so easy, that it actually makes me annoyed to come into contact with a tankier mob. I would say that in general, retail WoW makes you develop extremely cancerous habits. Like I can play Vanilla and spend even 1h trying to put together a group for a dungeon, but I spend more than 3 mins in retail in a queue and I'm already frothing at the mouth and saying Blizzard is shit and dead game.

Almost everything you posted are all things that people claim they want for mmos but if that was ever implemented, would never ever touch with a 10 foot pole.

Classes in MMORPGS should be defined like this, if the game even has classes.

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>Trinity
Thats why MMO combat will always be stagnant and bad.

Also known as.
Wildstar.

Won't work if you also make a hugbox terms of service like all games do nowadays. Can't call out people on their shit performance in a bulli free zone and bad players never see failing dps checks and whatnot as a punishment for their underperformance, some other party will carry them later.

trinity is the only system that works
every game thats tried something different has failed to the point of shutting down or sits in such obscurity only a couple hundred people play the game

Bring back Support and make it a square.

>punish under utilizing your class kit and reward intricate knowledge.
How?

>make leveling slow, hard and tedious
I disagree with the slow and tedious part, people who understand their class will be rewarded if it is decently challenging.

Maybe there is a reason why MMORPG is a dying genre? Maybe it has something to do with gameplay designed in fucking 1999 being copy pasted into every MMO even "action" mmos.

make players die to normal mobs if they just spam 1 attack.

what dumb ideas, nobody would play your game mr game designer

In a way you could look at it like this. You know that the combat sucks, and fighting a mob that takes a longer time REALLY sucks because you know you will have to sit there and do nothing why hitting a 3 button rotation because the combat is shit. I guess you could take a game like Monster Hunter for example and see how it at least makes combat with weaker enemies a little bit more satisfying, Same with tankier monsters within quests you know you don't have to kill but can since it's actually fun. I think you just have a different thing you want to take from wow then a lot of poeple in this thread.

Trinity with DPS replaced by a dedicated CC or debuff class and everyone capable of dishing out the same rate of damage is objectively, inarguably better. Everyone wants to get big boy numbers and letting someone dedicate themselves exclusively to being the big boy numbers class breeds a fucking ton of ADHD-riddled zoomer faggots.

Hot opinion, make level caps absurdly low or just remove leveling entirely.
Stop pretending that leveling taking a long time feels rewarding.
If you want the entire game to be the "endgame" then stop putting your focus on the max level that's only there after a long grind and just make it available early and for the entire game.

I'm thinking what could potentially realistically be done in WoW.
Of course the ideal MMORPG wouldn't have classes to begin with, just skill trees with skill grinding having diminishing returns to prevent everyone from having everything. Also ideally high mobility classes should be able to "tank" by actively avoiding attacks. Tanks should also be switching in boss fight alot to recharge their stamina/cooldowns.

>Any other fucking MMO would bring anyone who wanted to come and kill the dragon because they're not fucking stupid enough to instance shit.
Whats instances got to do with it?

and "bring anyone" content is an automatic pass from me, the bar for difficulty has to be set so low there's little point doing it

Tera worked fine with action system on top of trinity. Even healers got iframe moves and had to anticipate and dodge moves instead of staring at hpbars all fight. Tera is dead now because of many factors but having a trinity was never not one of them

Adding support classes back in could be done in WoW, hell Classic WoW has support classes. You didn't bring paladins, shamans or druids for their healing prowess, you brought them for their buffs

it's not about being rewarding it's about class identity. capped classes being gated behind 200 hour leveling tutorial is great because you grow intimate relationship with the class.

Being mandatory for a boring non-interactive buff does not make you a "support class", it means you are a shitty class that gets put in the role you fuck up the least because people are forced to take you

This is the biggest fucking lie of all time.
Leveling has not ever been a proper tutorial and people can go the entire leveling process after finding the bare minimum and learn nothing about how their class really works until they get their shit stomped in some endgame activity.
Wildstar had the right idea with a complete pass/fail tutorial dungeon as the first dungeon instead of holding your hand. Probably didn't help player retention, but having a very slow gradual curve while leveling does nothing to average player competency.
Every MMO of the past 16 years is testament to this.

>objectively better
top kek the only way you can have everyone do the same dps is if everyone plays exactly the same.

There is nothing wrong with mmorpgs, they just aren't popular anymore.

MMORPGS were really popular 10 years ago, that time has passed. Right now that popularity is held by battle royale games instead.

>Wildstar had the right idea
Which is why it fucking died huh?

>didnt bring paladins for their healing prowess
what?

Well, I feel so many games that have good combat are combat-focused almost in their entirety that it's almost impossible for an MMO dev to compete, unless you somehow make that your main focus. But yeah, I mean I hate just how easy the game is. Vanilla was simple, but you could still DIE if you fucked up. In retail you die probably because you alt-tabbed to do something else while you're killing a mob. I think the main thing that would make combat engaging for me is not having it work based on rotations alone. Like actually make me think about this mob I'm fighting and how to approach it. I think that's probably one of the things that makes Soulsborne satisfying, getting to know each enemy type. Blizzard have been incorporating new kind of attacks to mobs, but not nearly enough to make the combat actually dangerous. I think there was a SINGLE mob I came across in BfA that could fuck you up, some turtle with a charge that would then spin and kill you in only 2-3 hits (especially as a caster), so you needed to run around it all times. It was actually "fun", because you couldn't turn your brain off completely. An that was one mob. In the entire game. And then I googled and saw that people were whining on Wowhead that it was too hard.

No you're correct, leveling is one of the main plague in mmos alongside gear treadmill. The other is not focusing at least 50% of the game on pvp.
Guild wars 1 did it right with progression through skill aquisition and weapons that you could customize to your liking and this concept should have been expanded on.

Another issue with mmos is that action is by far the best way to do it but ping will always be an issue as a result, which forces the fight to not be as hard as they should be. A perfect MMO should have every mobs or boss be a threat at any point in the game.

Hybrid tax was so fucking retarded at the time.

It was not like a druid would tank, heal and dps in the same fucking dungeon, no one had unlimited mana and to be able to do one thing you had to specialize in it.

So you only brought druids for their ress and buffs, but they still had to have less dps than a mage.

Even though mages had the best dps, they still had crazy utility with portals and food, so it's just fucking retarded imo.

Every class should have a balance in terms of dps, but every one should have gimmicks that make them unique and more likely to be brought for some fights than others.

lmao do you actually really believe this shit?
I've played games with obnoxiously long leveling process that have you go through tens of hours pressing one button before you are allowed to graduate to pressing two buttons. Guess what, endgame is as full of retards as ever. This has probably made more competent people quit the game in disgust from being treated like brainlets than taught anyone to play the game.

Absolute retard

The way it works is that all classes can deal similar amounts of damage, but the new trinity is built around

>guys who can take lots of damage
>guys who can heal their allies
>guys who can reduce damage dealt by enemies and increase damage dealt to enemies

See: Phantasy Star Online, Vindictus

It's almost like something can fail but still have good ideas.

Paladins only got good at healing once their crit rate was high enough to really abuse their free crit heals. In the early days they were their for blessings and seals

the hybrid tax makes perfect sense
if mages and druids did the same dps why would you EVER bring a mage when a druid has bres, innervate and buffs?

I agree, WoW could've had more endgame instances and raids if it had a lower level cap.

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I still intimately know that each of the mob types in vanilla had different statblocks, like beasts had high health but low armor making them easy to kill with physical damage classes while demons have high resistances making them annoying to deal with as a caster, and undead were immune to stuns poisons and diseases and resistant to shadow.

>the new trinity
calling me retarded when you want to remove the old trinity and replace it with a new one?
absolute irony

Because Mages have their own buffs and utility?

Have you ever considered that maybe the mage can have utility skills of its own, without you needing t gimp another class, you fuckingdumbass?
>wow you got 3 cupcakes and i got 1 cupcake
>shall we get 2 each user?
>nah, fuck that, just flush them down the fucking toilet :D:DD:D

>dying causes you to loot all your items (and currency) that aren't soulbound unique or quest items, and you need to get back to retrieve it
Already dropped harder than Nagasaki

>fix
Go back in time to when there was jack dick competition for people's time and they'd load up MMOs to just go hang out.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter about the exact specifics of the game, people's dissatisfaction with them comes from that nobody really talks anymore. Make a hangout simulator first, and then get some people who love making bullshit to just come along and staple a bunch of raids, dungeons, whatever onto it.

What fucking utility? free food? int? both are pathetic compared to the utility druids have
multiple forms, can tank for a bit, multiple buffs, BREZ one of the best spells in the game, innervate
no one brings a mage for their "Utility"

Loot scarcity, Mages having their own utility, differences on a fight-by-fight basis..

You're talking about actual class changes im specifically talking about the way classic WoW actually plays and the reason the hybrid tax exists.

How often is your DPS druid going to be doing non-DPS things?

more like mmos need a big playerbase to have a good ecosystem and players tend to flock towards convenience. old school mmos had their playerbase simply because casual alternatives didnt exist until wow came and stole the show.

considering classic wow raids are below lfr in terms of difficulty, they can get away with a lot

Of course I would, and this is really easy to balance also.

Just put bress on the deep resto tree, the end, now balance druids can't bress unless they lose a lot of dps. But if you force every druid to have bress just so you can lower their dps, then it's not really a choice...

TBC did class balance 1000000000000x better, it wasn't perfect but it was getting there.

Which doesn't really change my point, Wildstar had some great ideas but the overall project still flopped.

I've never ever seen a resto druid tanking in a raid. Even feral druids had problems tanking. Are you okay user?

I never played Wildstar because the artstyle really irked me, it looked like garbage to be honest. I think many people shared this and didn't play because the artstyle was bad.

> XIV would be a lot better if it wasn't so damn slow
Imagine larping as a gamedev without even knowing anything about your supposed "competitors"

of course it did, tbc they had figured out a lot of how the talent system and class designer in general actually worked from outside of a theory standpoint
im unironically a classic+ person because i would love some work done on the classes/specs but kept inside the ideas of classic wow
i said "a bit"

You aren't wrong.
I enjoyed the classes and the PvE, everything else was pretty shitty and I got into it so late the game just felt dead and I couldn't really get into the endgame PvE before things shut down.
Esper, Spellslinger and Engineer were all pretty fun.

So how exactly does this change anything wrong about the trinity, considering this is just a different trinity.

Hybrid tax really didn't exist in vanilla, you stacked the best class for each encounter, or you filled your raid the best you could.

Hybrid tax really didn't become a problem until BC when they made every boss in the game have an enrage timer, thus you had to maximize DPS, every chance you could cut a healer or tank, you did so.

On top of that some 'hybrids' were stacked in vanilla and in BC, or are we going to ignore Shadow Priests on Loetheb, or Druids on M'uru

On top of all of this, because the game became raid or die, and dungeons became less important, hybrids lost a ton of their flexibility, no one cares if you can off tank off heal debuff and CC in a raid, but if you're going to spend 2+ hours in a dungeon like BRD its nice to have the flexibility to have the druid or paladin pull, or heal if the tank or healer needs to AFK for a minute.

hybrid tax DID exist in vanilla its literally how kevin jordan designed the classes.

>leveling is slow
that's cool but you need SOMETHING to achieve until the next level

>3-5h minimum
Nah that's too much.

>at least as good as the mid-range
Crafting things should also yield special items that you can't get in raids.

>each zone has a central hub where you get quests
that's great but if the quests are still shit it will still be shit

>no hybrid classes
And classes should have some utility skills alongside their main purpose, or may be built for different purposes.

> just fucking keep it at kill 50 boars
Quests should be quests. You should kill boars for its own reason.

No Kevin Jordan designed each class to have their own niches and strengths, but also their own weaknesses, unlike now where every class does the same 4 things, and you're either playing the shittest version of a Tank/Healer/MDPS/RDPS, or the best version.

sucking off white guys doesn't make you a chad, it makes you a faggot.

yes that is the hybrid tax
hybrids have more utility so they did less dps to compensate that is how he balanced them

portals.

well, it's hybrid tax when the "weakness" of every class aside from war/mage/rogue is having 30-50% less dps than them.

The GW1 style of leveling is a fair enough idea.
Leveling is pointless if everyone just wants to rush to endgame.

Not him but I think levelling is pointless anyway if all you're going to do is make it hours of collecting boar asses with fewer skills than you get once your character is "complete".

Like I constantly hear from people I can't wait for level X, I finally get Y ability. Isn't that pretty much an admission that its shit to play right now but it will feel good when you can actually do something? I don't really get it.

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>Leveling is pointless if everyone just wants to rush to endgame.
They don't though, that's why retail WoW is shit. Rushing to endgame is a literal meme. It's like those boomer memes on Facebook about getting the job you wanted and being unhappy as fuck. Leveling is your 20s, enjoy it.

I would give up trying to give advice on Yea Forums of all places. If you've ever seen those unironic "Post your tune" threads you'd know most of Yea Forums is still playing wow.

No, eagerly looking forward to something does not mean what you're experiencing now is shit

You didn't ask, so I won't write long-winded posts, and will explain it simply.
Why gating pvp behind gear and levels is a bad idea? Because it will create a standard, or a bar, below which, people won't even try to engage in PvP. Even in EVE online such bars exist (fleet requirements) and in most games they look like this:
- max level
- standard PvP armor
- PvP consumables and the time required to farm them
And if people decide that it's better to uninstall the game rather than meet the requirements, the bar starts to rise.

Dude, I don’t wanna play rock, paper, scissors in MMO’s, the combat is gimmicky enough as it is.

Warrior Mage Rogue being unable to heal themselves was a pretty big disadvantage.

None of you fags can agree on anything. Another day well spent making zero ground on moving the genre forward guys.

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I love that approach to be honest.

Imagine an MMO where there are no levels, or maybe like 8 levels, but the only thing they matter to is making it so that you won't rush the game or go to a max lvl place in the start to get a strong spell.

In level one you have one continent to explore and various areas where you get to learn the story of the land through exploration like Dark Souls. The rewards for those quests are passive skills and active skills for your class. Also gear, but there would be a variety of effects that could make a lvl 6 gear just as good for a build as a lvl 8 gear.

Some spells/passives would only be attainable through dungeons and raids.

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Just do quest gating instead of level gating.
Means quests can be more meaningful as you don't need to have 400,000 of them in order to justify throwing XP out and they can provide the same functionality.

Oh yeah.

>Enh shaman
>LOOK AT ME BRUH, I CAN HEAL AAAAAAND DPS!
>cast one healing wave
>no mana left
>dps just dropped by 70%

Sure thing buddy.

>user designs the next tortanic

could be the same thing, maybe you could only get a level after you have, I don't know, finished all of the dungeons in that level? But dungeons are hard, so you would have to get skills, passives, stock on consumables, get good gear to complete them.

How to fix MMOs: make social interaction mandatory. Thats it.

DPS doesn't matter in Vanilla except on a handful of encounters.

better than FFXIV's 999 hours of boring cutscenes or wow's "housewive pandering" gameplay lmao.

I have a strong feeling that the ultimate MMO is around the corner. AI and neural networks will be utilized to generate endless entertainment. Billions of people will be hooked.
But I can't undertake such a project on my own. That's why I can only "yell at a cloud" at this time.

The result is the same: max level is gated behind time.

They should just do away with leveling and focus the games on gear progression with gear that doesn't use raw stats but rather interesting synergies.

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this

>people still miss the point of why mmos suddenly died
MMOs died because web1.0 died. Novelty of having chatroom with gameplay is long over and won't come back till we have another technological leap to make things fresh. No matter what you do you won't bring it back.

No, it's gated behind competency.

You only go further in the game after you're able to beat the dungeons for that level. Which means you're traveling to places, doing quests to get gear/spells/passive and making friends because dungeons are hard and need a competent group to be beatable.

game?

>Fix MMOs
You can't fix MMO's. There is nothing wrong with them. Whats wrong is modern society, we're forced to work 8-10 hour days then spend the rest of our day shoving food down our throats and sleeping so we have energy to work the next day. Casual MMO's aren't the problem, they are a cause and effect of our diseased society. If anything you should be glad that games like WoW and FF14 are casualizing themselves, or else you wouldn't have an MMO to play at all.

MMO's are games that require massive time investments, thats what they are at their core. But when you have no time to invest, they aren't fun. But when you only need half the time investment to achieve what you used to be able to, everyone can reach that point, invalidating the feeling of accomplishment you used to get from hard work.

Back in the day, people had more free time. So when they would sit down and play a game, they would think "oh man, I can't wait to just explore the game and figure shit out." But now, we only have time to do the bare essentials. We set objectives for ourselves during our play time because our time is now limited, and the game starts feeling like a second job because time management sucks out the fun in games.

I still love WoW for instance. I don't play it, but at the start of every expansion, I take about two weeks off from work and I just play. You have no idea how liberating it is, just having all the time in the world, no worries or convictions, and just being able to just sit down and play the game at my own pace. I could easily sit there any play for 26 hours straight while having fun the entire time. Its a magical feeling which rarely exists in society anymore because of time restraints and job obligations.

Fuck this gay Earth.

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>being this retarded

they died because aside from wow and ffxiv, there are no mmos in the market that are competent enough. they're either cheap cashgrabs or korean grindfests.

Imagine if WoW kept the bosses to mythological creatures and side characters and left the main / lore-central characters as part of the setting rather than bastardising them all. Imagine an rpg set in the world of warcraft.

Everquest Next, its dead.

it never even existed.

Killing 70 murlocs to get 8 heads is incredibly enjoyable and I would love to do it for 80 hours but I think there might be better uses of my time

All of which takes time. People will figure out how to level... I mean, obtain all skills - fast and effortlessly anyway.
Similar thing has happened in Path of Exile. People level for 20th time, and the process itself becomes race against time.

>For every streamer, there is going to be an anti streamer guild fucking with them.
Yeah I wonder how the war between asmongold's 20000 viewers and a handful of autists from here will go
MMO's were already dead by the time streamers really started shitting them up, but their existence makes it a lot harder for there to ever be a resurgence

You are wrong, game design got fucked

No, you have just grown up and became a wagecuck. This useless "time investment" was always a problem, even back in the days. I couldn't join my friends' guild and go pvp, because I had to kill certain number of monsters. I want to do somethi g together with other people, not to grind my ass off in the fields.

Grinding sucks and you suck for suggesting it'll fix anything

>I couldn't join my friends' guild and go pvp, because I had to kill certain number of monsters
And this is why multiplayer session games are currently in the spotlight. MMOs doesn't offer nearly enough to offset the busywork you need to do in them currently. They are barely above said session games and doesn't really have room to grow because of technical limitations.

You don't get it man, it keeps the normies out so the game is only populated by hardcore gamers like myself. Yes there are people who actually think like this and they are fucking insane

But what if I also want a game, where I have something to show for the efforts I have done? I mean, money, gear and resources. Say, after a war, our guild gets control of a factory, which I get some share of a profit off, which allows me to get a new car/horse/spaceship.
Session games reset all your progress, also, they don't have politics and economy.

Yes, they are, and they're popular as fuck, which makes you the outlier wagie.

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I'm a NEET and still think grinding in games is a waste of time

>make time machine
>go back 20 years ago or so

Session based games have achievements, unlocks and ranking for persistent progress. And if you want politics and economy that's by definition not something you can just jump into, those things require time investments.

But the reason why mmos got popular to begin with was because vanilla wow was super fucking casual so even your mom and girlfriend could play with you. You're actually retarded if you think the hardcore crowd is what carries mmos

Why should mmos cater to hardcore players when they're not willing to put 1 cent into the game?

Just stay on your private servers.

MMOs should never be free

Its like everyone forgot what happened to wildstar when they started to pander to the hardcore crowd and how quickly that killed their game lol

>leveling is slow
Yes this is needed, mainly cause it creates a midcore audience and a meta for leveling which is larger than the endgame community but also because it creates an actual achievement.

>dying causes you to loot all your items (and currency) that aren't soulbound
Not a fan of this, its too harsh, especially if the game is gonna have world pvp and people can just indiscriminately attack you.

>dungeons take 3-5h minimum and are located in hostile environments you have to get to
Agreed but 3-5h sounds way too long, 1-3h sounds more realistic. They also shouldn’t be instanced.

>guilds that lead the server get to dab on others by showing off their epeen
Honestly irrelevant as fuck but whatever, I wouldn’t care if this was or wasn’t in

cont in other post

You need gameplay that isn't stale as fuck tab targeted, slow moving wack a mole. Wildstar got that right and dungeon design was SO fucking good. Too bad they fucked up most everything else.

>crafting is deep and time-consuming, not something you do on the side, and items you craft are at least as good as the mid-range of the raid tiers, though super expensive to make and buy, leave the bis items for raid bosses
Disagree on crafting not making bis pieces, there should be both crafting bis pieces and raid boss bis pieces. Crafting doesn’t have to be complex but not brain dead either. Mods should also monitor the in game market and control inflation to make it realistic for new players to buy good gear.

>fill the game up with items that strange effects and are powerful, so that you constantly have people re-inventing the way to play a certain skill tree/build
Hard agree

>each zone has a central hub where you get quests, no gw2/nu-wow shit where each area has its own quest giver so that you are just going from pale to place to cross things off a list
I honestly didn’t even know this was a thing, the only nu-mmo ive played is ffxiv, but yes hard agree.

Cont.

>no hybrid classes for baddies and low-effort players
Disagree. Hybrid classes bring flavor to class design. Its less about making hybrid classes and more about making it so each class can do many things while having a specific set of abilities they are good with. FFXI is the mmo to look at when making class design, they got it super right. Holy trinity is also not the answer, that shit is garbage.

>no zany/wacky quests, just fucking keep it at kill 50 boars and let me turn my brain off
I assume you mean quests that force you to do something unorthodox? Like searching for an rng mystery spot or solving a puzzle in a dungeon, if so i disagree, theres nothing wrong with these things.

>no fucking ff14/swtor type story shit, keep the story at a bare minimum, imaginative people can fashion a story out of the environment
Not sure if I agree, I would make the story less intrusive if anything. FFXI was story heavy, but the cutscenes didn’t get in the way of gameplay and usually happened after you finished whatever intense thing you were doing. Story was also heavily sidelined and only unlocked endgame areas, the game was rather open and let you go wherever you pleased from the start.

yes and yes

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Hardcore players provide entertainment for the casual masses. At least that's how it should be, and this is work that has to be paid.

What am I supposed to look at in this screenshot?

Just make FFXIV-2 its the biggest game on the market right now

Well, people should be able to optimize if they want.

If someone can go through all the dungeons using only the basic spells and passive and no gear... they earn it somehow. But normally that shouldn't be possible.

I wish Korea wasn't driven to ruin every MMO it creates.

Thats not an MMO. Yoshida himself said hes trying to make more of a mobage or ASSFAGGOTs with pve gameplay rather than an MMO

Its not even the biggest MMO

Tbh over the years my attention span has gotten worse and now I can only play mmos. I'm tired after work, I sure as hell don't have the patience to read walls of text and learning combat mechanics and whatnot. I played ff14 for 3 years, maybe I'll start Wow to explore the world and the lore.

Keep throwing those buzzwords kek i dont think you have even played the game yet

He's talking about Yoshida's new project. YoshiP believes the current MMO formula is dead, so he's looking at shit like mobas and battle royales for inspiration.

>you get one and only one character (autismal steps of identity confirmation to enforce)
>customisation is top notch
>skills are leveled individually and take autistically long
>characters are artisan OR combat, can change but means full reset
>can take very nerfed combat skills as artisan or vice-versa
>everything except the very most basic items are crafted from items obtained throughout the world by various means
>people actually have to work together to do anything beyond killing a rat
>raids are long, long processes and are the equivalent of real life sieges
>you need crafters to run logistics and combats to protect the crafters doing logistics so that combats can combat
>crafters are extremely relevant overall i.e. combats are reliant on crafters for anything beyond simplistic maintenance
>but crafters are reliant on combats to get materials from monsters or to be protected while gathering
>world has a basestate with npc factions but is a true sandbox overall
>making a player faction that controls more than a few towns or one large city practically impossible but setting up small outposts very easy aslong as you pay your taxes and get your land permits from your local npc faction
>admins run retarded events just to fuck with players/change worldstate
>dying drops all your items and throws you into the shadow realm and you have to get out of there on your own

what? not that user but I read the interview, the wants to make the next mmo EVEN MORE casualized than ffxiv which is already down syndrome tier levels of gameplay aside from savage content.

He's not entirely wrong. I mean, everything meaningful in WoW is instanced content. The world is just a backdrop for mindnumbing dailies, you could cut it out and it wouldn't really affect anything at all.

I WANT WOW BUT HARDER, MORE TIME CONSUMING AND WITHOUT PARTY FINDER
t.Yea Forums

that would be a good start

Based MMO mean massive multiplayer online it is natural that Yoshi will look at models that have most appeals to the mass there nothing wrong with that Yea Forums keep clinging their outdated ideal mmo that doesn't appeals to the masses anymore

>TFW there will never be another old school MMO because it's not "profitable" to most companies

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pretty good, I'd play it
not sure if anyone would want to play the crafters though

P-P-Pantheon will fix everything!

>capitalism leads to shitty products because most people are fucking retarded/don't care
and water is wet

I’ve played 1.0 and every single expansion.
I am not against rotations or action based combat but Yoshida has actively made it so classes within a role are rigid and homogenized in what they bring to the table. He’s removed pratically all synergy across classes and classes within a role are so identical that My gunbreaker hotbar and dark knight hotbar are literally the exact same outside of the meter skills they each have and one or two cooldowns that are different. The same thing happens with my healers, the only thing thats different is the specific gimmick they have and their abilities are so similar that i put stuff like essential dignity, lustrate and tetragammatron in the same places on my hotbar for each.
Role actions also make it so the tiny amount of utility that the game still has is the same for all classes within a role.
Caster dps?
>smn and rdm bring the same thing to the table, combat raise, except smn is slightly more dps while rdm gets a potent cure
>blm is selfish so they get higher dps
>all three have the same role actions
Ranged physical dps?
>bard and dancer both have raid dps buffs but since dancer gets more it does less damage than bard
>machinist has the highest dps since it gets no raid dps buff and is selfish
>all three get party-wide damage reduction skill
>all three have the same role actions
I can go on with meele dps, tanks and healers. The same situations happen here.

Gear in the game is also just a ladder you keep climbing, it gets replaced the moment a patch hits and bis makes a trivial difference to just going for higher ilvl. Most of the time you are going for higher ilvl and your only reward is killing a boss you’ve killed 100 times already 1 minute faster, a boss that will be irrelevant come the next patch. Stats practically Do not exist either.

The basic tenants of this game aren’t exploration and rpg mechanics, its memorization of boss mechanics and your rotation, thats it. Its literally a pve mobage

Sound tedious and complicated as fuck the 90s boomers are all family men and women now and zoomers dont have that attention span needed for this. For this to qork you need atleast 1 millon player at lauch but i doubt you will reach 100k with loser with nostalgia glasses ypur game will die pretty soon ppl dont have that kind of time anymore

Kill MMOs and make a instanced game based in boss fights with 10 to 20 people, most people aren't interested in real mmos.

Actually the masses will cling to anything thats popular even if its shit.
Yoshida could make FFXI-2 and people would play it in droves just like FFXIV simply because his name is on the credits.
Marketing is not about making quality products, its about taking advantage of consumers since most consumers are retarded and don’t care about the quality of the product.

Just look at movies as an example, capeshit sells on name only, do you honestly think people watch capeshit because of its quality?

Sports games, do you believe people that buy these buy them because they enjoy videogames? Do you think that they play them?

Again, marketing is about taking advantage of the consumer. You can make FFXIV-2 play similar to FFXI and it would still be a success. People are driven by ideologies of internet personalities, things that are popular, or whatever journalists say in their paid reviews because they cannot think for themselves.

No, I mean, the optimal route for a novice, not a challenge run. Like, if you read a guide on how to beat Dark Souls with easy strat, such as sorceries - and just follow it step by step, getting imba items, using summons, cheap tactics, shortcuts and such. It becomes a chore instead of a challenge, and it takes time. How much time should it take?

the idea is that crafter gameplay would be aimed at farmville casuals and EVEtists
casuals could just hop on, craft some stuff without much pressure since if they fail all they lose is some mats
EVEtists would on the otherhand be able to manipulate the economy or ragepost on the forums because they tempered a weapon wrong and now it only does 97.49531% potential damage according to their spreadsheet and it took them five weeks to get the drops

>zoomers dont have that attention span needed for this
it would be a casual friendly game in terms of access to most basic content isn't limited, most of it is "easy" in the sense you can bruteforce it with enough people and you can just play for ten minutes at a time doing some minor stuff like bang out a sword or go kill a few gobbos but behind the veil of casualness if you know what you are doing you can bankrupt towns or drive factions to war
I guess it could be comparable to chess? you can play it and have fun without any idea what you are doing but if you get into it you unlock layers of autism imperceptible to the normal person

We're coming Home™ soon.

>WoW SUCKS GUYS I WISH MMOS WERE GOOD AGAIN
>ok how would you make a good mmo
>THATS EASY MAKE WoW
does playing blizzard games give you a fucking brain parasite or something

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Vanilla wow was good, current wow is bad

WoW killed mmos. Yes vanilla wow. No it wasn't good because it was your first its dogshit that dumbed down everything for mouthbreathers like you. Now if your mmo doesnt hit 20 billion peak wow numbers its a failure.

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Minus the problems with Xenophobia, FFXI was the perfect MMO.
>You will never be a noob in a linkshell who hears of a rumor from another player that in South Gustaberg, there's a sheep that can drop a rare Great Katana that's good for early SAM levels.

Fucking NM hunting was my fucking life. Banning botters was fun too. Only way I could get Joyeuse and that earring from Mysticnaker Profblix

>All these people saying delete instances and delete instancing

Do you realize a modern MMO would quickly become unplayable if every open world dungeon was jammed with 1000 players, making your framerate plummet or servers outright crash? Instancing came about because developers realized as the genre grew that open world content wasn't sustainable with such tremendous populations, unless you do shit like layering or channels.

So Fortnite

Do you have a problem with trinity specifically (no support classes etc.) or do you have a general problem with role specialization? If it's the latter, how would you implement complex boss fights with no role specialization?

imagine playing MMOs that use layering and instanced bosses and encounters. All you casual faggots want is something to jerk your pathetic virgin dick off too. You dont really care about an authentic MMO experience

>Make player housing actually spread throughout the world and have a use, such as player owned taverns to hide from the elements and get short term buffs between travel, or as save points
>Very limited or no fast travel
>Weather and day/cycle that affects monster spawns and player experiences
>Utilize channels rather than layering or instances to implement manageable amounts of players in open world dungeons
>Make crafting/gathering as in depth as XIV
>EXP loss on death, but not gear loss. Can be fixed by being revived by a healer class.
>Let players customize their builds through skill choices, stats and gear
>Make quests more like Tibia and RO. They're hidden or not described to you even. You just come across them by speaking to NPCs or certain areas. Fewer, but longer.
>Don't penalize people for playing with others. Allow for leveling through open world mobbing, rare spawn hunting and treasure hunting. If anything give a small EXP boost for being in party with others who aren't AFK

The only way to fix MMO's is to have a hyper intelligent AI god construct be able to identify and locate botters in real time to assassinate them, as well as nuking china, russia, brazil, and most of southeast asia.

Once all them are dead, we can finally have an open world game again because legions of subhumans won't shit the place up.

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100% agreed.

Also the game plays like a single player game with its story.

This is why Monster Hunter World is so popular. It's getting with your pals, fighting a boss, and it's easy as fuck for the normalfag populace who won't bother with T/AT content

Instances are fine

You game design philosophy is all over the place, and contradictory.
The only way it makes sense, is from a player who's not very good at min maxing performance, BUT thinks they are good, or at least "good enough" at it.

Most of the ideas work great, but not in conjunction with others listed.
Essentially you are a mid tier player, who hates low tier players, but you think you are a high tier player, and your thoughts are built around this mindset.

you can have an opinion about instanced encounters after you have played an alliance (y~ people) vs alliance (x~ people) vs alliance (100ψ) world pvp for a certain boss. Instances suck and should not be part of MMOs. If you like instances go play single player

Easy. Sandbox mmo with BDOs combat system. Sandbox mmos are good in theory, the problem is there's always that group of incel NEETs with no life outside of their PC that poopsock their way to the top and completely destroy the experience for everyone else and kill the games' playerbase within a year. The solution is to make a sandbox mmo, but have an actual focus on pve instead of pvp with no rules. There can be pvp, but keep it to arenas and areas specifically for pvp. Maximize player agency in a sandbox world without giving them the option to literally ruin the game for everyone not willing to spend 16 hours a day in the game.

World boss PvP is a total shitshow

All quests should be adventures instead of mundane tasks alone. Its okay to involved the mundane in parts of the chain, but not as the only content.

>Farmer needs you to eradicate boars tearing up his crops
>During the boar killing you find that one has eaten a talisman or something, you show it to the farmer and he says it belonged to a neighbor
>You search the neighbor's farm for clues to their disappearance, thinking they were eaten or killed
>Find bloodstains in the basement, signs of struggle
>Chain eventually leads you to a cult that was sacrificing people to their boar god
>Leads up to an encounter with a spirit manifestation of it you defeat that drops a piece of gear with unique trait(s)

nice opinion without any examples how exactly are those points contradictory or why you think what you think about op

>social interaction between people is bad
>i want my loner experience in MMOs i just want a couple of buddies to run mindless single player content with me

this is how many quest chains in wow actually work

You get social interaction just fine with instances. You also can't simultaneously call someone a loner AND have buddies you fucking retard

They need to all be part of one quest though. And no markers telling you where to go.

kek

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>upcoming mmos
user, it's over. Mmos are gone.

>You and a few other guys run into the enemy guild's tank with a sapper charge and detonate his dick, wipe their raid and there's little to nothing they can do about it
wow hugely fun, I can't believe how much social interaction I'm having

>classic MMO era of early 2000's
>EVERYBODY brags about faction warfare (SWG, GW, WoW, etc )
>play the game
>90% of time spent killing NPC droids, Charr, murlocs or bosses
>people are so scared of dying in PvP that devs never make it a central part of leveling or playing whatsoever (only exception is EVE)

Why are we MMO players such pansies? Why can we not have a gladiator-style/Unreal-Tournament style MMO where you actually HAVE to fight people for success?

im not gonna argue with your dumbass on this. If you think playing an MMO with a couple of people is the ideal way to play an MMO you have never played a good MMO to begin with and your opinions worth is next to nothing

>Oh no I have to adapt and maybe bring more than one of each class and role in cast something goes wrong

There is no fixing it. People are stuck worrying about having the best gear the game has to offer. There will never be a way to make people not care about it. If there's no endgame, there's going to be a very small playerbase like Guild Wars 2.

>ctrl+f lineage
>1 result
lineage with some stuff taken from archeage (like ships and water bosses/battles) would be the absolute GOAT MMO

Everyone talks some good shit about world PvP until its a game they lose gear or EXP in and get set back days or weeks.

You design boss fights based on the classes rather than balancing classes so every class can work for any boss fight.
Its an rpg, at its core if an enemy is weak to something, you will take the tools to exploit that weakness even if you have to exploit it via unorthodox means because you never leveled up the class or character that exploits that weakness best.

To give an example, class A is good at tanking, class B is good at dps and class C Is good at healing. Class D and E can do a bit of everything but don’t excel at anything. In order to make up for that class D is good at doing specific debuffs better than Class B and C while Class E is good at this other set of specific debuffs. To that end you can create a basic tank and spank boss thats weak to debuffs that Class E uses best while theres this other boss that Class D is better at cause its weak to the debuffs they use.
This is a very basic example but the general idea is you design content around what the classes in your game can do, rather than make bosses a straight memorization of patterns from straight to finish that any combination of classes can do.

There's no adapting to that shit, if there's a raid focused on ruining your raid while you're busy dealing with an encounter, you'll lose.

Its just a larger scale version of waiting until a warrior is 20% fighting a mob while levelling then ambushing him. Dumb shit that only a retard would enjoy

In classic maybe, because in classic the rewards for these kinds of quests is actually really good gear.

Destroy WoW generic copies
Make Ragnarok Online copies instead
done i saved mmos.

the best MMO experience you can have as of right now is playing on a very popular Interlude low rate server (x4-6) and even that can be improved immensely which goes to show how fucking bad new MMOs are

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Thats just how life is and how PvP in games should be. Its a required element of danger to an otherwise mundane task in open world content.

No I think the ideal way to play is to be with a large group of people. Its called a raid. Which should take place in an instance.

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Yes I love not being able to play the game I paid for because some bored neet who plays 16 hours a day has higher numbers than me

Most of Yea Forums wasn't even out of single digit age when lineage was the goat. Why do you think theres so much nostalgia for wow? Because it's babbies first entry level mmo and they all want to go back home™. Meanwhile the rest of us with a brain just want the next era of mmos to come in so we can stop dealing with shitty ass fucking wow clones

Its mundane either way. There's not an "element of danger" its just rolling the dice to see how autistic your opposition is and if they're up for delaying you from killing something for a while.

oh wow. Next thing you are gonna tell me that wow 40 man raids offer social interraction and are not just boring shitfests. Endgame content should always be in the open world and between player factions/groups

There is also the ping problem when it comes to pvp. You can't have dedicated servers to get that ultra low ping in mmos and mmo servers have always had an issue with ping from shitty routing or just unstable servers.

I would unironically remove the gear treadmill. You should want to clear content because it is fun, not because it awards you with something you need to clear the next batch of content.

And I would add a clause to the EULA that states the developer can and will prosecute the fuck out of anyone datamining the game.

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Large scale raids aren't social. The more people you add in or require to complete content, the more each person gets lost and their contribution and coordination means less. In modern WoW raids and 8 man XIV raids 1-2 people dying often means a wipe. In old WoW 40 man raids a ton of people could die except maybe the MT and things would continue fine.

>Everything should revolve around my minigames!
Nope. Vanilla raids were shit anyway, 40 mans were designed around carrying shitters. Actually challenging encounters require social interaction.

Okay and who in this conversation was promoting vanilla as the way it should be? Certainly wasn't me

>the next era of mmos
I kinda lost hope

itt:WoW babies
WoW destroyed mmos so you faggots don't have any right or idea of how to fix mmos.

Which MMO doesn't have vertical gear progression?

Good job enforcing meta where some classes just don't get to experience certain parts of content.

How do you convince someone to do content more than once this way

If only, if only, user.
I think one way to create endgame longevity would be to encourage raids/parties to drop members of the group as they geared up, giving more or rarer loot as smaller groups cleared dungeons. People already do this to some extent in AoE leveling or DM farming.

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Yea he based

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how would you possibly enforce anti-datamining rules unless the leaker posts information that links them to the datamining?

even if someone somehow manages to create something original and new, or at least ticking all your personal checkboxes, it will get datamined and theorycrafted to oblivion a beyond nowadays, further contributing to killing the suspension of disbelief and the "magic" or "soul" or whatever other buzzword you want to use, you know what I mean
it's not exclusive to mmos or online videogames, but they do suffer more for it because you can't force others to playa specific way
nu-videogame communities suck dick actually they don't, it's quite the opposite actually, they're too good at what they do and that's precisely the issue

GW2 doesn't at the endgame. The stat difference between exotic and ascended gear is negligible for clearing content. Legendaries, the absolute top tier stuff, is literally only for bragging rights or QoL (since you can change the stat combination on legendaries at will)

It will never happen because wow got as big as it did now any mmo that doesnt have 2million at least playing is considered a failure and gets trashed by both publisher/devs and the players.

Small group content is the best way to enjoy MMOs.

>Having some guy pull packs of mobs, some DPS players and a healer
>Being able to make a literal camp with a tent and campfire and you get faster HP/MP regen and an exp boost while sitting beside it (turns off it you go afk)
>Chaining mobs for a long period of time boosts exp gains and droprates in the area
>Rares that REQUIRE multiple players and cant be soloed, which drop exclusive gear to them with unique bonuses to specific skills ala FFXI
>Open world treasure chests to hunt for or stumble across, chests would sometimes have a map for finding another one like in XIV
>Zone invasions at least as good as Rift

and how is GW2 doing these days? successful?

By suing the database sites that collect and archive the stuff that is datamined from the game.

Most of your ideas sound like thet were stolen from old MMOs. It's been done and most of it doesn't work.

Eve Online. It has a strict cap on powerlevels for each ship. Your character cannot focus on one kind of ship to enhance their proficiency with it ad infinitum. On the contrary, once you're done learning how to pilot a certain ship to its fullest you are expected to branch into other ships as each of them has their own niche and/or function. So in essence it's a horizontal progression of how many things your character can do well.

It's one of the healthier MMOs on the market, actually.

Apparently Yea Forums's idea of a perfect MMO:

>Permadeath or items lost on death
>Exp loss on death
>Takes 5 years to gain one level and +1 stat point
>Requires you to kill 10 million boars per level
>Nothing is told or explained to you at all since its hardcore
>Everything must be a competition, housing, pvp, gear
>You must /walk to all destinations at 1mph and the roads are filled with max level elite raid bosses I guess
>Crafting requires you to collect 200 items to make a sword and the crafting process takes 3 days and if you afk it breaks

>someone datamines your game
>posts stuff on 'public' websites like Yea Forums/reddit/twitter

you gonna sue fucking Yea Forums?

Fuck off its not

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If you can change classes on the fly this isn’t a problem. If you also read my post carefully i said that in an rpg you exploit weaknesses of an enemy even if you have to do it via unorthodox means because you didn’t level up the class or character that exploits those weaknesses best. This creates a varied role system where healing can be done by a wide variety of classes that can also do other things, just to give an example. It also means you ask for help, try a different build or setup for your class or level up another class when you want to do content that your current class isn’t good for.
You can also just make bosses or content that reward things that would help the classes that excel at them.

Heres how you make a good mmo
>Have a giant world and give the player a reason to do shit in it
>Give the player a carrot to chase to keep them playing
>Stick to horizontal gearing
>Enable player interaction through requirement of other players skills through crafting and unique job rolls
>While the trinity isn't a bad thing fucking expand upon it. The trinity is old and overdone fucking do something new with it
>Don't just make content with boring ass metas. Mix shit up. Get crafters doing content with combat classes
>Keep everything open world minus the final boss. Dungeons should be open world.
>If you're just going to tack pvp on as an after thought don't. Instead go pvevp or plan from the very start
>Pvp should allow the better player to win not the player with the bigger numbers

AND THE FUCKING MOST IMPORTANT PART OF IT ALL. DO NOT BOTHER TO MAKE YOUR MMO IF YOU CANT EVEN DO THIS.
>Make a good combat system. We've had nearly 20 years of tab targeting. Action mmos should be the way forward. If you want people to feel like heroes let them play and feel like a fucking hero not taking turns whacking each other while smashing cds on rotation.

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MMOs are too expensive to create and update and not nearly as lucrative as mobile shit. Give it up, MMOs are gone.

Wow, just like a real RPG!

You can sue a site if they are blatantly refusing to moderate information that shouldn't be public, or have their host shut it down like 8 chan did.

Class swapping on the fly will work, yes. But given a hefty amount of online players they will never settle down for suboptimal and unorthodox means of doing something. They will just ask before tackling content whether a candidate has access to the meta class their party is currently lacking. If not most parties will tell them to fuck off. Your method works only when player and class/spec scarcity is the norm which isn't a hint of a healthy MMO playerbase numbers state.

I hey dont mind me WoWbabs. Just here to post the best actually fucking great music from the best MMO that was created

youtube.com/watch?v=unYKqbwdK3M

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I'm not going to read all these wall of text holy shit you faggots can't resume or think in anything bunch of idiots.

That's not Ragnarok Online but L2's OST is pretty based as well.

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Literally just take XI and do that, but with some QoL updates. Keep the slow pace, keep the emphasis on exploration, make the world dangerous, require parties for the most mundane shit etc

And most importantly that glorious job system. Fuck this role based trinity shit. Give me variety. That's the fucking appeal of RPGs, building up a character to play how you want. BLU/DNC was the most fun class in an MMO ever

it hit me hard boys. I didnt know i still cared

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it reminds me how bad the new mmos are

Because I played it and you clearly didn't. The game didn't fail because it was hard. It failed because it was ran into the ground by incompetent and corrupt management.

City of Heroes. It's all about making alts, playing fun storylines (even some made by the players) and being an achievement whore. For min/maxers you can grind hard for 5% extra performance but almost all content is doable with any decent group of any combination of classes.

This is how FFXI worked and it wasn’t a problem because people would settle for what they got most of the time as long as it worked instead of just aiming for a 100% surefire win method.

>merit parties
>red mage is the best healer for merit parties and colibri
>no red mage available but theres this scholar or white mage
>ok lets take one of them, its the next best thing
>still works just fine

>fuck black mage literally cannot find any exp parties because colibris are so popular
>ok lets make a party of 4 black mages, 1 scholar and 1 bard and just blow up enemies that are highly weak to magic like flans in one timed cast

It works if you design it well enough, its also interesting to see how your players work around weird designs sometimes.
>ninja was expected to be a dps
>players used it as an evasion tank

blame wow

I don't know how I feel about action combat. Half the appeal of MMO's for me was buckling down at an exp camp with some dudes and chatting the night away while grinding. The slow, turn based nature of say XI was what allowed that to happen since you could have whole conversations in the middle of combat. With action combat there's no downtime and you can't do that sort of comfy grinding thing anymore

>And I would add a clause to the EULA that states the developer can and will prosecute the fuck out of anyone datamining the game.
Fucking based. I mean that.

FFXIV barely does not even have 1 mil sub. Its also decreasing 1 month after expansion

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>Make a good combat system
>Keep everything open world minus the final boss. Dungeons should be open world.
Pick 1

>Don't just make content with boring ass metas
Pick 0 because there will always be an optimal way to do content.

>Get crafters doing content with combat classes
dumb idea unless crafting is actually fun

Basically you're saying you want massive world with lots of fun content with a ton of sidegrades to collect where the combat is really good all the classes are balanced (but also unique!(PICK ONE)) and crafting is just as/almost as fun as combat AND none of the content should be instanced BUT this shouldn't stop the combat from being top tier while also having no latency issues.

wow user you've solved it why is everyone so blind

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Lion's Arch is full of people at any given time and there are always people to join your groups for fractals, dungeons and raids. I know you liked the original game and feel betrayed by GW2, but you disliking it does not make it dead.

There's nothign to fix. if you a fun themefpark MMO with music, good fights, interesting gameplay, and all the bells and whistles, you play FFXIV. If you want a down to earth adventure with friends and co-operation, you play WoW classic.

>farming the night away with the boys
>grouping up and delving in lost places for better loot
i want to go back. I want a good sandbox MMO with a rich world. I want it all back

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When was the last survey? Because according to this I wouldn't be considered an active character despite playing at least three times a week

>stopped thinking right there
ftfy

Sorry bro but we're waiting for the next era of mmos to come. If you want slow paced XI is still alive, just resub.

>dungeons take 3-5h minimum and are located in hostile environments you have to get to
Want me to tell you how I know you're a neet?

You actually have the worst suggestions I've ever seen in my life

>XI is still alive
lol

By making content that is fun to take part in, not some by-the-numbers dungeon crawls.

>get rid of the trinity

GW2 Tranny Dragons tried to do this and was shit... utterly shit.

Missed the point.

That literally does not exist anymore now that social media exists and how easy it is to voice chat or engage in conversations with strangers/peers at will.

If someone wants to passively talk to someone then they can just message them on [various social media services] or post on a forum while doing literally fucking anything instead of having to play a slow game. 'Comfy grinding' as you put it serves no purpose anymore. I'm not saying slow games are bad but their slow pace allowing you to talk is a non-factor now.

XI didn't have a trinity and it has what I'd consider the best class system in an MMO by a long shot

>by all costs absolutely avoiding anything XIV does
So ignore knowledge that could be used to improve on things because afraid of anime? I'm sure you guys are going to break the mold.

Lmao implying classic wasnt a theme park mmo as well put down those rosetinned glasses boyi

That's not true, though. It took a while and some additions to the system, but people have figured out "roles" that certain classes can perform. It's not the trinity as it is traditionally understood, but it's still a mix of different classes working together.

That sounds like complete and utter garbage

Vanilla WoW was what destoryed the genre in the first place. I have no clue why people look back on it like some paragon of classic gaming when it was the originator of all the nu-shit that ruined MMO's for everyone else

Most of these ideas seem really bad user

You mean like literally every mmo expansion in existence? The problem is you're trying to compare XIV to WoW when it reached the peak of genre popularity instead of its current peers where its on top or close. No MMO can ever reach old WoW sub counts because mmos have been replaced by mobas, battle royales and mobile gaming.

Wow didn't ruin the genre. Idiots trying to cash in on the wow train killed the genre. How many wow clones have we had since wow blew up that have died and investor money disappeared with it? That shit makes making new mmos difficult as the people with all the money will turn around and say "We've lost money in that market already no thank you"

By proxy yes, everyone learned the wrong lessons from vanilla wow, that doesn't make vanilla wow bad

Is that not evident of a design problem? The developers wanted to make content without the trinity, but ended up making content that practically required certain professions in GW2 'pretend' to be a healer and tank. They need to just admit they fucked up and in the next expansion make it an actual trinity game.

remove leveling system,

make guild halls and achievements gives rewards like for examples a trophy of the last boss in the raid inside your hall with a color matching your achievemnt on that raid (for example if you have a guild achievement doing lfr you get the boss in bronze, normal silver, heroic gold, mythic platinum and server first is the boss model),

give people choices in regards of dailies (instead of giving 30 world quests, just give people a choice of either doing the quests themselves for a high reward or make his followers do the quests with a timer and less rewards)

change the appearance of the gear with the option of changing the color.

make the guild halls accesible for anyone in the server (with an entrance fee that can be added to the guild bank)

also make the guild halls ultra expensive (like 50million so you will not have people making guild halls and tricking noobs into getting in and paying the entrance)

Lineage II had big problems, at least on mid-rate private servers.
I couldn't stand endless mindless grind that you are required to do every time you wanted to go pvp.
There were bigger problems than that, such as inflation and playerbase separation. Pvp was bad as well, rewarding buffbot users and zerg.
Original servers (x1) probably DIDN'T have these problems at all, but bar for entry was too fucking high even for no-lifers like me.

No class is required. Some classes are optimal, of course, but you can clear content with "sub-optimal" compositions. In fact, some guilds are even all about using experimental/meme compositions, like all-warrior or all-mesmer.

What if God was a Wojakposter?

The biggest blight on MMO's are content finders and pure vertical progression. Get rid of just those two things and thing will improve 10 fold