Can Vidya ever reach the pinnacle of art and become timeless classics like other mediums?

someday maybe

To Sneed a Chuckingbird

to sneed a chuck

Loads of games are art.

Fallout games are a good example

The Last of Us
Undertake
Lisa

They don't need to.

>American literature
>timeless classics

Yikes

Cringe

Lee's legacy was ruined when they forced her to release Go Set a Watchman on her deathbed

Well if you want to talk about "need" then video games don't "need" to exist at all

>nu-Yea Forums unironically thinks videogames are art
take me back

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Neither do we.

>try to read the summary of that trash
>it sounds like tedious garbage
>author's name is "Harper" Lee

I'd rather play DmC than read a literary "classic" such as this.

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Art is an arbitrary term for whatever you like. It’s all self expression or even outputs if nature itself

how do you make a video game “artistic” without reducing the qualities that make it a game and just emulating other media?

sneed

>Video games aren't ar-

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I don't understand why this book is considered some kind of classic. It's like a satirical joke. A jewish lawyer defends a nigger in a rape case and the nigger didn't do it. What the fuck? This happens constantly IRL but the nigger really did do it and rightfully goes to jail 99% of the time.

Is that why it's such a classic? Because the dindu really dindu nuffin? I don't get it. It's also outrageously fucking boring.

There are two definitions of art in use.
1) anything that is made and intended to involve emotion in a subject is art. Under this definition almost anything can be art. Trolling is an art. The most shallow and commercial videogames are art. All games qualify as art by this definition.
2) Art is a deeply meaningful piece of work for the creator. There is no need for it to be a commercial success. It doesnt matter if many or few are moved emotionally by it. It too must evoke emotion in a subject. Many but not all games are art according to this definition.

>t.

it already has

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>people who love films read literature and chamberplays
do they really?

Papers please

video games already accomplished it over 20 years ago

takeshi’s challenge is art

Yes, I’d agree with this. Hard to come up with others.

Funnily, both definitions are false.

Art doesn't need to invoke emotion to be art; art doesn't need to look good to be art; art doesn't need meaning to be art.

This post is art.

I think we need to start by eliminating cutscenes and text dumps. These things make it seem like we're shoehorning other mediums into games with separate gameplay. Story should be woven into gameplay so that the medium can reach it's peak without being derivitive.

>doesnt need to evoke emotion
WRONG

Interactive medium can never achieve that as long as it's unjustly compared to non-interactive ones.

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Catcher in the Rye was more deep

this

No, because art does not exist.

Yeah, in a kind of shallow, cheap commercial way I guess.

>timeless classics
>books, movies, music
Harry Potter sold over 100 million copies in less than 20 years. The "timeless classics" like A Tale of Two Cities took far longer to sell that many copies, and had the benefit of being required reading material for students in schools, inflating sales numbers.
Whitney Houston's soundtrack for The Bodyguard sold more copies than Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, The Beetles, Madonna, and was only outsold by four other albums throughout history, all of which came out after 1970. Nowhere on the list is any classical music, and the sheer lack of classical radio stations can tell you how ignored the genre is.
Gone with the Wind, The Sound of Music, The Ten Commandments, and Dr. Zhivago are the only four movies on the top 10 of all time list to come out before 1977. You are highly unlikely to find anyone outside of a film class who has watched one out of the four, much less all four.

"Timeless classics" only exists in academia, in reality it was just works with enduring popularity. By this standard, 8-bit videogames are already timeless classics.

No actually this post is art, fuck you

Examples for games as art.
Warcraft 3 Original Doom minecraft.
Examples for games that are not art the last of us nu doom detroit become human

You won the threat user

>classics of literature
>it's either a propaganda piece for the author's personal views on morality/ideology
>or some guy on opium writing self-masturbatory crap nobody cares about and jerking off his intellectualism like it's a version of the rick and morty copypasta that goes on for hundreds of pages

this

You gotta make a living somehow.

it already has, with both story driven games such as silent hill 2 and morrowind and with gameplay driven titles such as hitman: blood money and castlevania
and these are just 4 examples off the top of my head
there are many others
people who stick their head in the ground to say gameplay isn't an artform, and that storytelling/atmosphere/music within a game isn't an artform, are just being obtuse for the sake of riling up 12 year olds and the occasional braindead autist. games aren't just all fun and games at the creation stage; there's a carefully balanced art to building a level, to making it aesthetically pleasing, making the character control well, etcetera; there are, too, plenty timeless, classic games. surely you can think of something simple like mario world. you can show your kids mario world but adults still appreciate the game on their first go around. it's not of the snobbish "high art" school of thought but it is still most certainly art in nearly every aspect.

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@472934530
Not even worth a (you)

depends
ok retard care to explain your reasoning?

>Harry Potter
"No!"

Not all, of course. But take a guess over who're more well read among Fellini, Bergman, Tarkovsky, Bresson, Kurosawa vs Kojima, Miyazaki, Naught Dog man, Bioware writers and Bethesda writers.

My guess is the former.

Lol no. Film is for dumb dumbs.

So you only read what they told you to in high school. Got it.

But Kojima loves films

> i love old doom new soon suxxxxx!
Get with the times boomer

>Tfw No depressing Sopranos-esque video game kino

hothead out

Once, art was based on the institutional definition: the art "community", especially the owners of gallaries and museums would define quality pieces to be art. Even in the era of mass produced film and novel, critics and acedemics performed a sort of arbitrary gatekeeping that defined art and not-art.

However, in the modernist art era, we defined new things to be art, not on content, but on context. A blank canvas placed on a wall, a film of the empire state building for 16 hours, a urinal placed on the floor. The idea of modern art was that, by way of a designed form, anything could be art. The post-modern art argument logically concludes, "if anything is art, then art is an arbitrary and meaningless title", and so art does not exist.

By definition, art is dead, and we have killed it.

>Sopranos-esque video game
>player character dies in a cutscene at the end of the game

Not all art is high art.

Kojima loves mainstream action and genre films. Just because he's watched Escape from New York doesn't mean he's well versed in cinema literacy. Ï don't want to shit on people's tastes unnecessarily, but even Kojima is an outlier when it comes to game writers. As a person who spends time both with writing class students, film students, amateur actors and gamers, gamers really don't care at all for literature, whereas most amateur actors has read more than a few Shakespeare plays.

Not saying you'll instantly become a better writer the moment you plow through Titus Andronicus, but the mentality of "I want to know narrative form through hard work of going through the classics" simply doesn't really exist in the gaming scene at all. What amounts to elitist and pretentious in the gaming scene is painfully banal.

Tell that to Shadow of the Colossus.

Hamlet wasn't a novel.

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>People who love literature also read philosophy, people who love films read literature and chamberplays
That is some bullshit and you know it, especially for films.

Need for Sneed.

There's not a single book or film that comes even close to being an artistic masterpiece.
Video games are first and foremost pieces of entertainment and most don't claim to being "masterpieces". While video game "journalists" are mostly pieces of pathetic shit because they take themselves and their "profession" too seriously however they will never beat the sheer pretentiousness of art critics.

well metro 2033 for example would be timeless classic, only if it havent already been made by the book. so games can be fun and deep at the same time but the main purpose of games is interaction, so if you have a good gameplay you have a shitty story and dialogs or characters. if you have a good story, you have a shitty other. and if you have good dialogs, message and depth, all together looks too pretentious

The S-word.

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>Gone with the Wind
Please don't remind of that garbage pile i had to read in high school, is the movie actually good, or overrated garbage like the book

I know exactly what you're up to, user.
Why are you doing this? What is your end game?

literature > music > video games > motion pictures
but also
Yea Forums > Yea Forums > Yea Forums > Yea Forums

Prove me wrong

this

Yes it can in fact it arguably already has but videogames also have some serious negatives from being videogames that give it a serious handicaps. For one its hard to be ya know timeless when graphics are improving by the day books and movies dont have that issue. Another issue is a game has to be interactive which gets in the way of a story books and movies dont have that issue at least im not aware of any timeless classic choose your own adventure books. Oh and the game I think has achieved timeless classic for vidya is SH2. And thats coming from someone who prefers SH3.

There isn't a video game yet that is as good a game as something like Crime and Punishment or Monte Cristo are as good novels. It also took a millennia for these books to come to be.

For ages fictional literature being read for recreation was deemed a waste of time done by lousy children. It was blasphemy that you were reading stories made up instead of studying insights of human culture and history.

Here we are now. Literature is the second oldest storytelling medium and lauded as the peak when video games have existed for less than one thousandth the time.

this is true by virtue of how much Yea Forums and Yea Forums have decayed over the years

>The idea of modern art was that, by way of a designed form, anything could be art. The post-modern art argument logically concludes, "if anything is art, then art is an arbitrary and meaningless title", and so art does not exist.
Art is an arbitrary title, that's no conclusion from modernists but a rather archaic and naturalistic point of view.

Yea Forums should be lower

Sure. But like any other medium, it needs enough time for the old guard to die and for their direct protege to lose relevancy before it can gain legitimacy in the eyes of the world.

this is you right now

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>unironically calling To Kill A Mockingbird "tedious"
>Avatar posting as Satania
Checks out, Newfag.

Yea Forums is shit but Yea Forums is worse and Yea Forums is kind of bad

I didn't play that game, so I'm not sure if I've gone too far shitposting, or not far enough.

seething mockingtranny

sneed

Yea Forums, Yea Forums. Dislike it. Cheap sensationalists, clumsy and vulgar. Shitposters, claptrap analysts and slapdash comedians. Some of their greentexts are extraordinarily amusing. Nobody takes their pedophilia seriously.
Baneposting. Their best work, though an obvious and shameless imitation of /pol/'s "meme magic."
Sneed's Feed and Seed. Dislike it intensely.
Maskposting. Dislike it intensely. Ghastly rigmarole.

Go to bed, Battler

>Remember reading Of Mice and Men as a highschooler
>Didn’t realize there was an anti-capitalist message
>Look back at the story and realize how terribly it displays said message

Sure, you should take a look at Undertale.

mobileshit and gachagarbage will never lose relevancy

Yes, but not by story and acting alone. That's not what makes video games unique. It's the immersion, gameplay and mechanics that makes certain video games into art.

>Yea Forums > Yea Forums > Yea Forums > Yea Forums
This is true but less because Yea Forums is any good but more because of how much worse Yea Forums and Yea Forums have gotten

The Great Gatsby is better than any video game that has ever been made.

John Steinbeck openly supported communism. If he went all-in with the message it wouldn't play well.

Absolutely.

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What is the video game equivalent of House of Leaves?

Ever heard of this little known game called ET for the Atari?

I have read it, I understand the themes and subtext, and I still don't understand why it's rated so high. At least with Moby Dick I get it, I understand why it's considered the Great American Novel.

I'm not seething at all. You're just saying the wrong thing like an idiot. Mockingbird is an alright book that's greatly overrated by the public school system in America because it's a "safe" and progressive book. They're weird and xenophobic about trying to relate a story from great authors like Dumas or Dostoyevsky to the American youth. They also don't want the youth to actually process challenging dilemmas or learn to actually challenge the system and question things.

You didn't get it.

>well metro 2033 for example would be timeless classic
This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Since you haven't read stuff like McCarthy, Solaris or Picnic by the Roadside, you think a statement like that actually holds true. Because you simply haven't read enough books, you think something fairly banal like Metro 2033 is a "timeless classic".

And if you think "the main purpose of games is interaction and good gameplay but shitty story is ok" that's fine, but it's not art at that point. It doesn't have to be, and you're not smarter for liking art over not liking art, but it's still not art.

PT

It was a better read than Night or Mockingbird because of that.

Overrated meme book.

>I have read it, I understand the themes and subtext, and I still don't understand why it's rated so high
I feel this way with every classic I've ever read. They can be good, sure, but I'm still left wondering.

To Sneed a Feed and Seed

No I just hate all the characters. Yes, I know for the most part they're SUPPOSED to be unlikeable, but if we're going purely by Fitzgerald's books then I thought This Side of Paradise was much better.

I actually decided to look at the AFI's list of top 100 movies ever made and I looked at dates specifically. I noticed a few things. First the oldest movie on there is the birth of a nation in 1915. The newest movie on there is Fargo in 1996 so no new great movies in the last 23 years. Yeesh. Oh and for those curious the oldest movie on there not based on a book was the comedy the goldrush staring Charlie Chaplin 1925.

>And if you think "the main purpose of games is interaction and good gameplay but shitty story is ok" that's fine, but it's not art at that point.

Making interesting gameplay systems is absolutely an art.

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Most of this is because of capitalism user.
Classic stations used to exist but were phased out for not being profitable enough.

To Kill a Sneed

>The newest movie on there is Fargo in 1996 so no new great movies in the last 23 years.
In fairness I struggle to think of 10 movies post-96 that belong on that list.

>Oh and for those curious the oldest movie on there not based on a book was the comedy the goldrush staring Charlie Chaplin 1925
That would be pretty damning if it were the newest movie.

Gatsby is a better snapshot of the period and a pull back of the curtain highlighting the quiet misery beneath American decadence. It resonates stronger with people in some way.

>AFI's list of top 100 movies ever made
>Citizen Kane is #1
It's a good movie, it's a masterpiece even. But is it really the greatest movie ever made?

who?

art doesn't require appreciation to be art

Then you're a tasteless, pretentious sack of shit.

I'm not sure it's lack of great movies, but that it takes time to really decide if a movie is a classic.

You can't call a movie that JUST came out an "instant classic" because that's not how it works. Even 5 years might be too short to render a verdict.

>a better snapshot of the period and a pull back of the curtain highlighting the quiet misery beneath American decadence.
Personally I thought Hemingway was better at that, he just often set it in Europe using American characters.

the greatest art is that which makes my dick hard

Nah, it's more what said. Not enough time has passed for a long of these movies, unless the film is phenomenal then it's hard to say whether or not it'll stand the test of time.

We'll get back to me when you can tell me which of Fitzgerald's novels was Hemingway's best.

Read Lolita. Vladimir Nabokov only showed his clear hatred of Freud which makes him Based AF.

It's complex, very difficult and creative work, yes. "An art?", in a sense yes. Cooking really well with with bland ingredients is also an art.

If we're talking about something which the recipient derives meaning from, Dwarf Fortress has very little in that regard. It's focused on goofy, slightly dark and satirical humor, juxtaposition and irreverence. It's fun, but not more meaningful than, say, Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.

Also, art is not synonymous with narrative, something weird, abstract and seemingly meaningless can be art.

Citizen Kane by law has to be number 1 on any greatest movies of all time. I prefer Casablanca. Im more perplexed by the Graduate. I fuckin hate that movie so much but apparently its number 7.

I did some more looking the only movie past 2000 worthy of being on the list is if you consider the whole LoTR trilogy as one spot on the list.

I only saw Casablanca for the first time last year, was pleasantly surprised at how good it was. Thought it was going to be overrated.

Hemingway and Steinbeck are AAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSS and I shall elaborate no further!

Is anyone even interested in establishing "classic" films anymore?

I mean, something like Synecdoche, New York should be immediately slotted into those lists, but nobody talks about it

Hell, I don't think there are many movies at all in the past 20 years that we talk about for more than maybe a year or two after release.

t. had to read The Sun Also Rises in high school
I did too, I just didn't have depression back then so I didn't "get it".

The list was made in 1998. You can't think of ANY movies in the last two years better than Fargo? What about the last decade over Dances with Wolves? Or Schindler's List? Pulp Fiction?

No, because we can't study vidya in school.

Well there's There Will Be Blood, for one.

Shit book get some fucking standards you brainless Yea Forumsirgin

>he wasn't forced to read this shit in school
third worlder confirmed

>If we're talking about something which the recipient derives meaning from,
What a poor definition of 'art'. Almost as bad as 'something that is pretty'.

>Is anyone even interested in establishing "classic" films anymore?
No, because modern man has been fed a steady of flashy instant gratification. And also because the classics are boring af.

You're being ignorantly reductive, have you ever spoken to someone who made something?

Anyway, you should read Céline, he shares your opinion but unlike you actually writes well. Pic related is a passage.

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Shadow of the colossus?

Hard to beat the emotion of a people occupied by nazies when the actors are people whos homeland is currently occupied by nazis.

I dont get why this is a timless classic, sure it taught me not to judge a person based on the color of their skin but it teaches me jack on how to kill Mockingbirds

I think "classic" films these days are really relegated to smaller directors, sadly.

The Hollywood machine is concerned with maximizing profit. A movie like Synechodche -- hell, even Fargo -- isn't going to bring in the money like a Marvel movie can.

I think you misunderstand why TKAM is taught in schools. The average American's reading level is ninth grade(and perhaps more importantly, almost half the population are below sixth grade level). People like to read something two grade levels below their competence, because that's the point when it no longer takes specific effort.

Sure enough, the most popular books amongst high schoolers in the USA are around 5-6th grade level, meaning that the students are probably reading at a 7th or 8th grade level. TKAM is conveniently at the same grade level as the books the average teen would actually read of their own volition are.

It's well written, engaging, and at an appropriate level for the average student, while also being a classic of YA fiction, and at this point the book itself is part of popular culture and engaging with it is an experience that everyone can use to relate to each other.

Furthermore, you also have to keep in mind that the average high school english teacher is a pretty normal person. Average IQ for a highschool teacher is about 108, so above average but unimpressive. TKaM is also relatively easy to teach with a very relatable story that even a mediocre teacher can effectively draw parallels between it and real life.

Honestly, I think it's a great choice. A good chunk of those students in your average English class won't even read of their own volition, and you suggest throwing Dumas at them? In an elective Literature course sure. Maybe for grade 12 English if the teacher really wants to teach it specifically.

It really does bother me that every 9th grade English teacher held this book up and slammed it around as God's Word and said this was THE book.

But then instead of other arguably more important pieces we had to read some contemporary dogshit like Mause or Glass Castle.

That wasn't a definition, and I'm not even interested in defining art, but gaming trying to be artistically worthwhile through semantic "gotcha!"s about definitions should raise a few alarm bells, shouldn't it?

We had to read Mein Kampf (annotated by Shlomo Lügenberg) instead

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im not going to participate in this with you

I know I’m gonna get shat on for this but shenmue might fit the bill.

Downfall (though it's not American), A Beautiful Mind, Letters from Iwo Jima, Gangs of New York, Road to Perdition, Public Enemies. There's just something about the first half of 20th century america that makes for good movies.

Not him but I read the the three musketeers in highschool and that was written by Dumas right?

Seems to be your criteria for 'artness', at least, and it's absolutely terrible. And I'm definitely not the user arguing DF is art. It's probably one of the better games I've ever played, but I wouldn't call it art from what I know.

>It's well written, engaging
>engaging
When I read it in school I couldn't wait for it to be over
It was marginally interesting in the second half
But holy shit that first half is awful

this

What were the annotations? Because a lot of what Hitler was talking about was pretty context-specific to being in Germany at that time so if you don't have annotations then most modern readers won't know what he's talking about.

It's also a fact that it became a defacto Paperback Novel that every school could afford to buy or reasonably have the kids purchase it. Publisher made a shitload of copes selling it for only 8 bucks piece. It will probably fade away in coming years because Lee's estate stupidly decided to stop printing the mass paperback.

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Yes and also it puts forth a progressive message that left leaning teachers will hammer out. Drawing parallels of social inequity and such. It's a book that's like you said easy to wedge your beliefs into and say to kids "THESE are the real American values!"

Try doing that with Fitzgerald or Hemingway.

like pacman and tetris?

>finally read it
>"dude we'll never be able to overhunt whales, all we use are these shitty harpoons, half the time we get ourselves killed or come back empty-handed, and the elephant has survived millenia of hunting"
>12 years after publishing the book the first shipboard harpoon gun was invented and the whale killing rate skyrockets
Boy this didn't age well.

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You do realize that "people who love films" includes every mouth-breathing 40-something slob who can't take his eyes off the tv and every 20-something quarterbrain who puts near infinite amount of hours into Netflix, right?

>a progressive message
But it's about how a woman can be a liar and her wicked roastie ways leading to an innocent black man being murdered. To Kill A Mockingbird is explicitly against #BelieveAllWomen.

Even though I'd read To Kill a Mockingbird well before I saw the flash, the only thing I can associate with that book/movie is that retarded thing.
In case someone hasn't seen it: youtu.be/fo45o69HaKI
Specifically the Final Countdown song immediately plays in my head when I see the cover.

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Just MUH SIX MILLION and Israeli bank account details on every page

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>Yes and also it puts forth a progressive message that left leaning teachers will hammer out.
That we shouldn't lynch people for crimes they didn't commit simply because of their race?

Well to be honest, Mein Kampf is a pretty shitty book. There's one chapter that's decently written, and that's because it's literally copypasted from another source.

sometimes a good death is the best possible conclusion to a story,

>Finally read it
>spends more than half the book writing filler about the science and background of whalehunting, miscellaneous episodes about other ships relating to nothing, and the genealogy of whales
This book was such a disappointment.

based

I'm guessing you wanted to see Tom lynched for being black regardless of innocence.

Melville was a whaler earlier in life. Half the book is purposely meant to be an ecyclopedia on whaling. Though he did wrongly insist that whales are fish because fuck you, if it's in the ocean and isn't a turtle then it's a fish.

Why haven't they made a To Kill a Mockingbird game?
>play as Atticus Finch
>basically Phoenix Wright with a different setting

That we should stand up for black people and the disenfranchised groups was how my teacher framed it 11 years ago, but yeah.

I dunno, I got the feeling it actually wasn't about whales.

All I was left with was bitter disapointment that the book isn't as amazing as its opening. Ismael referencing Cato and speaking the greatness of water itself is filled with such conviction. I'm happy I read it but it just gets boring.

>he did wrongly insist that whales are fish
Seriously? A widely touted classic of literature has the author stubbornly insist whales are fish?

>Just MUH SIX MILLION
Well I mean, the book talks about the Jewish Question and the solutions to said question so bringing up the holocaust is kinda unavoidable now.

>it actually wasn't about whales.
>the odd-numbered chapters are literally meant to be an encyclopedia on whale biology and the whaling industry
Uh huh

"Fish" at the time just meant "animal that lives exclusively in water". Melville recognises that whales are warm-blooded, breathe air, and bear live young, but just doesn't think that a sufficient reason to redefine what "fish" means.

The real answer is that To Kill A Mockingbird is extremely problematic. The hero doesn't believe a woman's false rape accusation.

The fact that he called phrenology and physiognomy solid science says more about him than the fish thing.

Crime and Punishment is a hamfisted moral rant with laughable characters written by a Russian shizo and Monte Cristo is a light novel tier drivel. Take something like Killer7 and bam, you have something of that sort.

I mean now that you mention it, Atticus does basically take the Wright route of "bully and press the witness until they cave and confess"

>Not saying you'll instantly become a better writer the moment you plow through Titus Andronicus, but the mentality of "I want to know narrative form through hard work of going through the classics" simply doesn't really exist in the gaming scene at all. What amounts to elitist and pretentious in the gaming scene is painfully banal.
True. But honestly, this describes most modern media. Film has more of a legitimate legacy as a medium but holy shit is Hollywood producing braindead retarded sequel vomit. Artists in general today aren't raised being told to respect and examine tradition.

>it’s not based on the scottsboro trials, I swear!

He actuallt specifically calls out anyone who would try to say what you said within the first quarter of the book.
He says something like "i wish to describe the whale for you fully, less you think it was, god forbid, an allegory".
The whale is a fucking whale, if Melville saw how everyone has used it as a "symbol for obsession" hed be hella pissed.

Really ran your shitpost energy dry at Dostoyevsky huh.

>Monte Cristo is a light novel tier drivel
Take that back or I swear to god I will hunt you down and ruin your life.

The thing is, as I see it it presents a new type of novel. There aren't many writers who'd dedicate half of a book to some technical shit instead of a story. It's something akin to the stuff Oulipo guys did with novels like A Void: an exploration, a different approach to an existing form.

It's not even symbolism, Ahab is quite literally obsessed. There is no subtext, it's a man who thinks he can take revenge on an animal.

Weren't they widely accepted as science at the time?

I'm not demanding Hollywood to be high art, nor am I demanding Activision or CoD to be either.

Like I said, there's no art scene in gaming. There's no Cannes or Venice, no Cahiers du Cinema, no academia worth the name.

I am willing to buy that Ahab is actually the real allegory to man trying to find and instill deeper meaning and the madness that pursuit cultivates. When ultimately he's just chasing a big ass whale.

I dunno why Westerners fap to Dostoyevsky that much, the only remotely good thing he wrote was a short story about a guy who glitched into a crocodile. Everything else is Danganronpa-like shit about giant retards and degenerates bashing some philosophy that goes against the author's Orthodox faith.

No. Moby Dick was published in 1851, phrenology was already dismissed as psuedoscience quackery by the 1840s.

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Question to the europeans here whats the To kill a mockingbird of your country? You know the book everyone has to read in highschool. Please dont say its TKAM.

Because it's a steep deliberation on their morality you fucking disingenuous chode.

And the west is very much not in love with Dostoyevsky. Dickens is still way more overrated.

I dunno, maybe the original language is cool or something but ultimately the story is too fucking basic. Granted, it's not Fantomas but it's not exactly a high literature either.

Well I finally read it this year. Honestly, it was a much more entertaining book than I thought it was going to be. The book was nothing about what I thought it was going to be though.

>Dickens is still way more overrated.
I give Dickens a pass because A Christmas Carol is the reason non-Catholics celebrate Christmas again.

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>reading in 2019
lmao at all you nerds

The reason Count works is because if the story was told from any other perspective, Dantes would be a villain. A villain that's plotting against another villain yes, but morally wrong all the same. It's the same reason why Paraside Lost works, you're sympathetic to the actions of someone you're not supposed to root for because you've seen it all through his perspective.

>it's not exactly a high literature either.

Next you're going to tell me War and Peace is just genre fiction.

UH OH GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND THAT MEANS I HAVE TO BE A GIANT DOUCHE NOW!
JEEZ I GOTTA PROVE MYSELF SO I HAVE TO GO AND KILL AN OLD LADY!

Deliberations my ass.

If we're speaking Tolstoys, I'd put it next to Alexey Tolstoy's Aelita.

Yes I too can grossly oversimplify about 100 pages or so of a story.

Short answer: No and it never has or ever will

Don't sidestep the point you fucking phony. You're just posturing.

Pastanigger here
We have around 2500 years of books culturally relevant to us, our highschools still teach latin, so our literature classes have a loot of hours and shit to teach.
If i had to say, every Italian knows The Betrothed (Promessi Sposi - Manzoni) and Divine Comedy (Divina Commedia - Dante)

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The real question can video games ever become good again

TKAM is shit and boring. I wish schools made kids read fundamental western canon instead of this overrated slog set in Whocares, Alabama. Nobody fucking gives a crap. Try the Iliad or the Odyssey instead. Abridge them for the kids, I don't care. Maybe something both useful, beautiful and important like Speak, Memory to introduce them to life in Russia before the commies made life horrible for everybody forever after. I wish I read that when I was young instead of fucking Catcher in the Rye.

Anyway. literally Warcraft 3 is better written than TKAM and has more significant messages. Legacy of Kain.

If we're talking pure art, Diablo 2 blows 70% of all books out of the fucking water.

Second post best post.

Videogames were never good.

>our highschools still teach latin

America has failed in this respect. We barely teach the required second language courses adequately.

What are some good books?

>in a wifebeater with a gold chain
I wish this wasn't so accurate with the Italians I know

100 pages wasted on shizo rants against strawmen do not make a story good.

It already did user.
But you rejected it, so you don't deserve any better than what you have.

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Neither does your faulty and dishonest rants make the story bad.

>People who love literature also read philosophy, people who love films read literature and chamberplays
You act like those people don't also play games.

Do you guys read the Divine Comedy in its original Italian, or are there modernized "translations" of the original

Dude, you're making Jojo references, how else should I answer?

What the fuck are you talking about you retard

Childhood is To Kill a Mockingbird
Adulthood is Go Set a Watchman

Original.
Usually there are entire schoolbooks about the Divine Comedy, left page is the original, right page is the "Translation" and explanation with context.

Have more Italian imagery then

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Im American and my parents made me and my siblings learn latin. My dad cause hes Catholic and to read the bible in anything else is heresy cant get much more old school then that I guess and my mom wanted it because it helped with our grammar. I dont use it often but its hella fun.

You're not going to like my answer. Tech manuals and science books. All fiction is ultimately just a distraction to pass the time.

Just ask yourself if video games can be propaganda. Because that's basically what art is. It's a way to communicate the political grandiosity of a culture to both its own people and to foreigners.

The only reason we view the Pyramids or Mona Lisa as art is because they are old; during the Third Dynasty they were monuments to the glory and power of the Egyptian Kingdom, and during the time of the Mona Lisa it served as a reminder of the patronage and glory of the Catholic Church.

Which frankly means that Coca-Cola is art.

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>and my mom wanted it because it helped with our grammar.
I can understand it if you are Italian/Spanish or French, langauges that come directly from latin, but how is latin helping you with english grammar?

You're right, it's just mediocre.

this

so much this

>all art is propaganda

Oh, dear. You're as dumb as someone who thinks art needs to invoke emotion to be art.

English is at its core German but its also very heavily French.

>The only reason we view the Pyramids or Mona Lisa as art is because they are old
Imagine being this much of a brainlet.

How about you supply arguments instead of making yourself look like a fool? Or perhaps that's what you prefer.

Oh yes, "philosophy" - the ultimate tell of a pretentious prick

Imagine not having any arguments.

Either commie or alt-right, I honestly can't tell.

Philosophy is literally the search of truth.

Honestly, not wrong.

How about you tell me how I'm wrong instead of shitposting you fucking faggot?

Philosophy is running in circles pretending you are going somewhere

Shakespeare used to be massified literature 200 years ago. Only about 70% of people were literate, but everyone literate had read Shakespeare's works. Because it was the poor man's play.
Nowadays it's the far opposite, Shakespeare became the mark of high culture
And honestly the only barrier that makes his plays and poems hard to read is the language barrier, which you can circumvent with a translation. Of course, a translation takes part of the soul a way, but fuck it's better to read a translation than to never read anything from him

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By your dumb definition art that is meant to defile and criticize established cultural dogmas or society isn't art.
Which isn't the case since the greatest art pieces are a challenge to the status quo

Nobody said truth was easy

I've never enjoyed reading a book.
Also fuck the grapes of wrath. I just fucking took a failing grade and made it up later rather than actually finish reading that commie bullshit

My argument is that appreciation of art has always existed, even while the artist was still alive, and you're naive if you think otherwise. Don't spew some bullshit generalization like "no bro, ALL the artists were appreciated as such only after they died" now.

I had to read the War Between the Classes instead of To Kill a Mockingbird and it was horrible. No idea who could think that is a good idea.

Very underrated post
MGR has actual philosophy, but it's so subtle that you will only notice if you actually know which authors the characters are quoting

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>Which isn't the case since the greatest art pieces are a challenge to the status quo

This is just wrong. Literally every single artpiece until the modernist era are literally glorifications of their respective culture.

It's not until the 1920s you even get the idea that art is supposed to be subversive you ignoramus.

Is there any difference between Armstrong and Raiden?

Wrong, here's an example.
The greatest piece of literature ever written, in the XIV century, is the Divine Comedy, which is just shitting on Florence governament.

No

>My argument is that appreciation of art has always existed

I never argued against this anyway, so what the fuck is you point?

My argument is that art is propaganda, and good luck arguing that it isn't, because for most of history that's literally what it was; The Catholic Church paid artists to make shit that glorified Christianity, or the Roman patricians did before them, and Greek tyrants did it before them.

Do you think the symmetry and marble beauty of the Parthenon exists just so people can stand there and admire the craftmanship? No, it was an actual fucking temple for the goddess Athena.

Why do I have a suspicion that it is something like A. van Vogt quoting Keyser?

Raidem cares if innocents die as a result of his actions.

>which is just shitting on Florence governament.

Says you. Why should I believe you?

There's also glorification of Dante's dead loli waifu though.

Everyone knows what who Mario and Pikachu are. Pacman is also pretty timeless.

>Can Vidya ever reach the pinnacle of art and become timeless classics like other mediums?

They can.

Sadly, only a few games actually utilize the interactive nature of vidya that sets it apart from other media.

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Because information is free and you're a big boy that can use google

So does Armstrong though. But he is willing to break some eggs to make the omelette. Like Monsoon said, Raiden keeps justifying to himself that the innocents he kills are not his fault because his cause is just, which is bullshit, he is as guilty as Armstrong, just too much of a coward to admit it.

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Mario? Pikachu? I'll give you Pacman though. Who could forget Pacman, the boss from Mega Man that was weark to Darkman's weapon.

>which is just shitting on Florence government.
More like shitting on anybody he didn't like
>Oh, those guys were assholes, i'm gonna stick them into a 4th circle of hell

Foldscape

>I never argued against this anyway
>The only reason we view the Pyramids or Mona Lisa as art is because they are old
Are you crazy?
>just so people can stand there and admire the craftmanship?
>No, it was an actual fucking temple for the goddess Athena
You worded this correctly, it wasn't "just so". It was a fully functional temple and, in addition to that, a great piece of art. Or do you think the artistry was just a coincidence?

100%

>Or do you think the artistry was just a coincidence?

No, but the artistry *serves a political purpose*. The artistry isn't a separate entity from the context, and the context is a politico-religious temple on the top of a mountain that is supposed to glorify the culture that the people live in.

Now, you can argue that the artistry is more important *today*, but you can't deny that the artistry was completely subservient to the political goal once upon a time in history, which is what makes it propaganda.

I think by the end the point is that Raiden also has to agree that Might Makes Right, but his ultimate goal is more ethical or good, rather than believe Armstrong to be evil because of his actions.

Basically when it's broken down like that, all you have "is it okay to kill children like adults?". Or experiment on them, or whatever. Raiden says no. Armstrong says yes. Of course when we look to history for groups that engaged in human sacrifice, they often preferred young "virgins" due to the fact that they were in no short supply. As usual, one could argue in favor of Armstrong because of the fact that he aggressively moves towards his goal, which could result in a utopia free of suffering, meanwhile Raiden's passive protection of third world brown people would result in the extended existence of poverty, and starvation, and more and more death of third world brown people.

No video game story will ever be on par with the Iliad or Moby Dick and you are an absolute retard if you think otherwise.

Raiden kills a shitload of innocent people to meet his goals, same as Armstrong.

Hell, most of the enemies in Metal Gear are just soldiers, employed to do a job.

Armstrong does not want an utopia, he is not a retarded commie. He wants precisely the same thing as Raiden, which is to end war as a business, to end the system that forces people to fight and die for the wars of grumpy old politicians.
But he realized that in order to do that you'd need to kill a lot of people. Raiden meanwhile prefers to sit on his ass and complain while he kills the innocent people that were dragged to find someone else's wars in a very hypocritical way.
This is why the extra scene you get from beating the game in the hardest mode is Raiden quoting Armstrong as he prepares to fight, thus implying that he realized Armstrong was right and followed his footsteps

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Video games have a big hurdle for becoming timeless in that they are software.
That book is easily read in 100 or 1000 years. Movies and music need format shifts.
Video games tend to need specific hardware and operating systems.

and no books gameplay will ever be on par with the gameplay of DMC, or Super Mario 64. What a dumb thing to say. Video games aren't books. They don't have to prioritize their story to be held to the same regard.

while he kills the innocent people that were dragged to fight someone else's wars*

VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT ART, FAGGOT

its a play script but an inspector calls

Metal Gear Rising is art

>World free of war
>Not a utopia
I'm using a pretty broad definition when I say utopia. Basically Armstrong's endgame could have been a nicer world to live in for the survivors. Of course it will never happen cause if history has taught us anything it's that people are mad hypocritical when it comes to who should die for what, and when. "Don't you kill those people, or... or we'll kill YOU! and we'll take the moral high ground for doing it!"

Daily reminder that this is what millennials and zoomers were forced to read in middle school/high school, and it's why everyone is so fucking up in arms about black prejudice and BLM and whatnot. Two generations were constantly told that black people had it so fucking rough, and basically, you're a huge fucking loser for being white and part of the problem. American literature has destroyed this country, and it only took 100 years or so after all these "classics" released. These kids and up and coming adults keep looking at these books and then projecting the problems found therein to contemporary society.

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That's just broadening the definition of propaganda to the point of uselessness. Propaganda as a term intrinsically infers a degree of halftruths, lying and ruthlessness. Calling a temple propaganda because it's motivated by a religious/political purpose is just being dishonest.

The temple was designed to be the most beautiful it could in order to please the gods and be an acceptably impressive place of humility. It's beauty invokes hopes and dreams of paradise. Propaganda (the way it's usually understood) is firmly about the real, the non-abstract. Information pertaining to relevant sociopolitical topics of issue.

A lot of black people do have it rough, and so do a lot of white people. The one doesn't preclude the other, no matter how much race-baiting your shit media does on a daily basis.

>>World free of war
No user Armstrong did not plan to rid the world from war
He just wanted to rid it from the business of war. But the first thing he said is that there would still be war. The strong would purge the weak and rightfully rule in a natural way. It is the natural consequence of ending war as a business.
For Raiden to be a "good guy", he should have realized that maintaining war as a business is what allows the weak to survive.

You're mostly right but this line of thinking is part of the problem if it causes you to dismiss games like RDR2 which are "cinematic" but also convey their stories in a way wholly unique to the medium.

Metal Gear Solid has more soul than to kill a mocking bird

>thinking films is impressive or artistic
heh pretentious babby detected

>Two generations were constantly told that black people had it so fucking rough, and basically, you're a huge fucking loser for being white and part of the problem
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my schools the lesson from books like TKAM is just "racism bad"

It was pretty basic, and no matter how many times we studied something about racism it never went any deeper than that
Got kinda laborious

This but unironically.
Look at pic related. If you tried describing that moment in a book it'd take at least two or three pages and would be highly esteemed as very deep high culture literature.
If it was in a movie, it'd be "pretentious" at the very least.
But since it's stuck in a game it's just animeshit.

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>Dostoyevsky
>American youth
yeah right good luck with that one

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>book that only exists to push nigger lover propaganda on children
>timeless classic

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>The temple was designed to be the most beautiful it could in order to please the gods and be an acceptably impressive place of humility. It's beauty invokes hopes and dreams of paradise. Propaganda (the way it's usually understood) is firmly about the real, the non-abstract. Information pertaining to relevant sociopolitical topics of issue.

It really doesn't matter. Do you think humans have changed that much in 2000 years that the only people who existed back then were completely naive retards who didn't understand politics?

Chances are there's plenty of people who understood the political propaganda value of the temple back then, just like the Cardinals in the Catholic Church did when they built St. Peters Basilica.

>the artistry *serves a political purpose*.
This still doesn't justify your original claim that the contemporaries only saw those works as nothing more than propaganda. Unless you meant that we're the ones who only see them as pieces of art, without their original propagandistic meaning, but even that would be wrong, as anybody who wants to fully appreciate a work of art must take the context in consideration and be reminded how the artpiece came to be.
Besides, your whole stance assumes all art is made on commission, which simply isn't true.

>try to justify vidya as art
>"muh story"
Gentlemen, I present to you the pleb.

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>Sequel is hot garbage and anal-painals-canals everyone who headcanon'd Atticus as actually giving a shit about civil rights.
>Collective mainstream literature community pitches a shitfit while 99% of people will never actually read the sequel anyway or even know it exists.
>"The book was clear an exploitation of the author"
>"The author is just wrong!"
>"Re: Reeeeee"
>"Wow its actually just shit."
>literary critics don't call everyone who reads entitled and needing to gouge the eyes out of all hardcore "Book readers" and that book reading is dead.

It is pretty shit though.

Not like it really matters cause since neither were fortune tellers, they wouldn't know if the next generation would come along and undo everything they had tried to achieve. All Armstrong could really hope to do was destroy what he viewed as a highly corrupt system, and hope to rebuild it without corruption. The argument for Raiden is that he hopes to preserve the life and system that already exists because the only victory Armstrong may achieve is that he sits at the top for a while while everything likely would slowly devolve into what it had already been anyway even after all of his "cracked eggs".

Good thing I don't play games for the story

jesus christ imagine MGS3 bookform
>"Impossible...!" Ocelot said as he was slammed into the ground by a lightning-speed CQC maneuver from Snake.
>"You ejected the first bullet by hand, didn't you?" - he said while smirking - "I see what you were trying to do, but testing a technique you've only heard about in the middle of battle wasn't very smart, you were asking to have your gun jam on you."
>"Huh?!"
>"Besides, I don't think you are cut out for an automatic in the first place. You tend to twist your elbow to absorb the recoil. That's more of a revolver technique."
>"You filthy American dog!" - Ocelot shouts, darting towards Snake with a soviet knife, only to be once again disarmed by the American spy.
>"But that was some fancy shooting... You're pretty good."
>"Pretty..." - he mumbles, blacking out - "... Good..."

Reminder: This book is considered racist now:

theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2015/oct/20/is-to-kill-a-mockingbird-a-racist-book-tanya-landman

Of Mice and Men, we all had to read it. In my class the teacher would have us take turns at reading out loud, but for the part where they say nigger, she did it herself. She also changed how she spoke when reading dialogue to try and capture the accents she imagined they would have. So a she was approaching the line 'where the hell is that nigger?', it was really tense, and then when she actually said it the one black girl in the class laughed in a strange way I guess I would describe as condescending, but it was something different. And the teacher ignored her and kept reading.

Well, if it were written by someone with actual skill instead of a shitbird on Yea Forums, it might be good

The book sucked, though. Just a bunch of mysterious setpieces and banal commentary on society.

I had to read that too in Ameriland. I'm shocked every school doesn't have to read it.
Also people would put on funny accents for the characters and that was our fun.

The Last Guardian

This is exactly why re4 and dmc3 are the best games of all time

I wrote Game of Thrones

gotta love when these pseudointellectuals from reddit bring up the books they had to read in middle school to prove their point.

>Sneedsons
>Timeless classic
It is on life support

It's a nice easy English Lit book: Plenty of interpretation to frame questions around. Mice and men, Lord of the Flies, pretty much any Shakespeare (which works for English language too) are pretty much fodder for exams. It's also not that long.

>Question to the Europeans
>Of Mice and Men
user, I...

Of Mice and Men is my favorite book of all time

I think a lot of schools don't teach it any more because it says nigger

I only got to read it because I was in a gifted class, and my teacher had a big talk before we started reading went something like
>This book was written in a different time
>It contains a certain word, and I'm only going to say it once
>Nigger
>We will not be saying it any more even if reading aloud

Honestly all I really remember is that she said nigger so making it such a big deal was probably counterproductive

>Unless you meant that we're the ones who only see them as pieces of art, without their original propagandistic meaning

Honestly, I think people very often even see overt propaganda as art. So that's just my opinion tbqh.

That reminds me
>read 20000 leagues under the sea
>3/4 of the book is "Wow, look at that underwater landscape, hella rad innit"

I've been saying this for year. Games provide another outlet for creative expression that no other mediums provide. Games relying on a single thing to convey itself as art aren't taking full advantage. I think games like Minecraft and should be considered high art of the medium.

we just listened to the gary sinise audiobook

It really is. Do people not remember being shitty little kids? Like do they totally forget? I couldn't wait to go hang out with my shitty little friends so we could say all the no-no words we weren't supposed to say. That's all that comes from putting so much of a guard around the fucking word. Racism is still there. It will never leave. It's literally a natural behavior to be cautions of ANYONE outside your social group, but especially those who look different. It's where the supposed "racism" is birthed from, and it's why it will be ever present. At least until we meet another sentient species that looks radically different.

It is. And that's a good choice for a grade 12 novel. If you went to a good school your classmates might have been smarter/better educated on average and your teacher might have been able to teach it earlier.

It's a lot better if you sit down and read it yourself. Anything you read piecemeal through school for an assignment is going to drag on.

what constitutes a "time class classic" for video games is significantly different to literature and film, we simple cannot evaluate the best games have to offer based on the standards of the best of film or literature. unfortunately, since games often are designed primarily to service a customer, often they fail to really innovate and push the boundaries of the medium, but there are examples of video games that should be considered artful.

a game like the first and second Thief does environmental story telling, atmosphere, player agency and immersion in a way neither literature or film has come close in the history of either medium. it's an example of the pinnacle of art video games should be striving to emulate; by using gameplay to be conducive to a meaningful and immersive experience. So games can be excellent teaching tools, instead of a book or film telling you what it's like to be in a war, vidya has the opportunity to place you in war and have you experience it first hand.

narrative wise the only game I could consider anything close to being compared to good literature or film is Planescape, literally no other game has come close.
also this, and I'll add; there is far less space for innovation and meaningful experiences in vidya because game design is far more dependent on servicing the consumer because of how time consuming and expensive they are to produce and publish successfully. that's why design is being consolidated into trash cinematic experiences like tlou or god of war which emulate film or competitive multiplayer games, it's easy for the hordes of retarded "gamers" to enjoy and therefore increases the chance for profit.

in this space where games are so expensive and audiences so braindead, actual good and meaningful vidya are few and far between.

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Well there were a couple books I enjoyed through school
Hamlet, Of Mice and Men, The Wave, fragments of the Odyssey and Inferno (though I'd already read the Inferno on my own)

But most of them were just boring as sin

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Saints Row 2.

I’ve read this, it wasn’t that great.

Man this guy must hate god hand.

unironic bump

Imagine thinking hundreds of years of slavery had NO (lasting) impact on the negroids that is felt to this day. Imagine being this sheltered.

Anti-intellectuals like you are the actual problem so it allows any old retard's opinion to be held up as equal to those massively more intelligent and informed