Do people consider Final Fantasy VII's story to be confusing?

all old JRPGs are confusing as hell because of the translations.

Sephiroth controls Jenova. Not the other way around. Every source and canon contradicts this retarded theory.
Jenova is a retarded mimic.

Who cares, JRPGs are designed so you'd forget the previos story bits just as you finish another boring dungeon with random encounters out the ass

What source
Sephiroth is literally Jenova, just like all the puppets that got hre cells. That's what the reunion is, all the cells scattered across the world gathering back together to recreate Jenova, hence why she's always more powerful everytime you meet her.
One could argue that Sephiroth might be like her new vessel body or something, or simply being used as her weapon to regenerate, but either way the real villain is Jenova

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No, it's simple enough even for children to follow. Japanese games tend to have lots of exposition and overexplain things several times just in case you missed anything.

The only confusing parts were where it's not clear at the start who/what the voice in Cloud's head is, like when he enters the gay sauna, and the voice in his head says "what are you doing here." The remake trailer pretty much confirms it's Sephiroth.

Jenova is equivalent to Lavos, it is known as the "Calamity from the sky" and almost wiped out the planet before it was sealed away by the Cetra. Jenova cells control the clones, and cloud itself. Unfortunately there is no clear cut answer to whether Seph is in control or Jenova, or the other way around, but I find Jenova being the one pulling the strings to be much darker and engaging than Seph. Either way, it is the Jenova cells that make him different, so in a sense it is Jenova either way.

There is also a Gnostic Christian element to the game, if one is to link Jenova with Jehova, also known as Yahweh, the god of (((the chosen people))). Gnostics believe Jehova is a false god known as the Demi-Urge, that has enslaved humanity, coming from somewhere outside of this realm of existence, and some fractions seek at somewhat radical means to free mankind of the grip of this entity. One could even consider Jehova to also be a "calamity from the sky", or "the heavens". This fits up with Square's history of Deicide, or the killing of "god" in their games. In the end, Sephiroth, as he says to Cloud, is only just a puppet.

The sources are the FF7 Ultimania Guide, and the original Japanese manuscript. Even AC too if you want. Also what's been said about the relationship and even how Sephiroth speaks throughout FF7 as becoming, "Greater than the ancients. Greater than Jenova!"—one of the few lines that actually outlined Sephiroth's superiority in the English translation.
Sephiroth is a new lifeform. He is an amalgam of Mako, Jenova cells, the knowledge of the Ancients, and Lifestream energy—Lifestream energy and Jenova cells naturally repel eachother. When Sephiroth reemerges, he is no longer under Jenova's control. It was a perfect storm that stopped him from bother becoming Jenova's vassal AND being absorbed by the Lifestream.
Jenova's vassals are mindless beasts—Sephiroth is not.
Jenova is not capable of complex plans—Sephiroth is.
Sephiroth had knowledge of the inner workings of the lifestream and the planet—Jenova does not.
There are also other obvious hints. For example, when the Numbers reunite for the Reunion, Sephiroth strikes them down for fun—something Jenova wouldn't do.
Finally, Safer Sephiroth is an image in Sephiroth's desire—not Jenova's. In fact, it practically mocks her form, which is the superior smug nature of Sephiroth.

Kingdom Hearts is fine up until Dream Drop Distance and beyond.

Regardless whether jenova or sephiroth is in control, he's the one you have to kill to save the world. Also i never said sephiroth and company worked together. They are seperate but the plot comes down to stopping them both to save the world

It's clear that Sephiroth is in control.
There was a time when Jenova was in control—Nibelheim.
Sephiroth displayed the insanity/stupification that goes with the control.
Now, did Jenova influence Sephiroth? Yes.

The Sephiroth story line is actually the most interesting part. You could make a horror game out of Sephiroth going nuts. Square thought so too, and so they did make the game—Parasite Eve.

I never finished PE, but it was fairly cool. Can you expand on that comment?

If Sephiroth was in control and he learned he wasn't an ancient and the Jenova was space parasite, why did he still feel the need to summon meteor? Was he just that pissed about Cloud killing him?

Parasite Eve was a famous novel in Japan a couple years before FF7 came out. The games even shared some development staff. The Sephiroth-Jenova subplot was referential to Parasite Eve and The Thing.

The thing people are most often confused about is whether or not it was Sephiroth or Jenova in charge. The game however quite blatantly tells you that it was Sephiroth.

Not really a confusing story, but I’m surprised some people misunderstand the ending with the whole “it’s ambiguous whether humans are a threat to the planet enough for Holy to kill them too?” Unironically made me think even back in the day and still holds up today.

The planet would collect more energy to repel it.

Is the new threat mod any good?

He was gonna use meteor to crack open a giant wound in the planet that the planet would then gather live stream energy to heal. Sephiroth was gonna take that energy/knowledge/power and basically become all powerful, having received the collective knowledge and power of everything living that ever existed on Earth.

That's Jenova's will. The "human" Sephiroth died when he fell into the Lifestream. His motivations are indistinguishable from Jenova's. Jenova-Sephiroth is only interested in Cloud because he's the strongest Jenova carrier and the best candidate to deliver the Black Materia, not because of a grudge between Cloud and the human Sephiroth.

I understand his plan, I don't understand his motive once he learns he isn't an ancient.

>Jenova was in control!
Is that why Sephiroth had it act as a guard dog for his lair?
>That was just a part of Jenova like the other Jenova fights in the game!
Is that why Synthesis had a unique model and battle theme, while the other Jenova fights shared a (recolored) model and theme?

Only the idiots that still think there is more than the surface shows by thinking Jenova was the masterbrain all along, which isn't sustained in any way in-game and has been debunked by the creators as well.

What does not being an ancient have to do with absorbing the Lifestream?

?
His main motivation is absorbing the Lifestream. Something Jenova literally cannot do.

baguette here, the french version was very poorly translated from the english version by people who barely spoke english in the first place and probably had absolutely no context whatsoever when they were translating
it's laughably bad and it's actually pretty difficult to understand what's going on because some sentences don't really make sense grammatically at times, it's like the characters aren't even responding to each other most of the time

The scene where he goes quite literally insane is when he finds out he’s a Jenova freak, not an ancient and Cloud throws him into the life stream. I think he started planning after that.

He started planning during his trip to the Lifestream when he absorbed a shit ton of hidden knowledge.

Hybrid lifeform.

More like completely new lifeform.

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It’s a tonal mess if anything. Also the motivations are a bit dumb for the most part. Honestly, the second half of the game is nothing to write home about.

The entire reason he burned down Nibelheim, freed Jenova, and declared war on humanity was the mistaken belief that he and Jenova were ancients, why does he give a shit once he learns otherwise?
He learns he isn't an ancient after being killed by Cloud and being thrown into the lifestream and absorbing its knowledge.

He doesn't give a shit about avenging the ancients after he learns that he isn't one. He just wants to be a god, and wounding the planet is the way to go about it.

Because it's what Jenova would've done and Jenova had already influenced Sephiroth at that point. She might not control him, but she certainly influenced him for a period. Who knows what went through his brain when he travelled the Lifestream. Also, he's a dick.

Because becoming a god is a major step up from being dead.

I don't at all. It all ties together.

Not really as whole, but the dodgy translation makes some things harder to understand than they should be. For example, I remember the entire ”Sephiroth clone” thing being kind of hard to understand when I played the game first time as kid, it only really clicked on when I got internet access and got to read more about the lore. They probably could have chosen a better word for that.

Dream Drop Distance was fine too until that one movie where one of the Org13 members goes back in time to trigger the events of the mobile app. The loose time travel shenanigans near the end of KH3 were pretty bad too.

The shitty translation works out in its favor honestly. It's vague at times. This is ten times better than most Japanese shit nowadays where everything is explained in excruciating detail in protracted dialogues. The story holds up well frankly.

Advent Children makes it seem like Jenova is in control. They want to be sephiroth, but they serve Jenova. Jenova is their mother, he is their brother. They want the cells so they can become like their brother. But Sephiroth is dead, yet they are still carrying out his will. This leads me to the conclusion that Sephiroth's will is Jenova's will.

If Jenova had taken over the planet, how would it travel to a new one, continuing its progress? Sephiroth summoning meteor would be one way to do so, aside from Seph/Jenova absorbing the energy of the planet in the process. Turn the planet into a new "calamity from the sky", and visit new worlds to respawn and reproduce.

They as in the Remnants of Sephiroth, Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo

>he's a dick.
I disagree from Clouds flashback it seemed like Sephiroth was decent enough guy, he even seemed morally disgusted with Hojo for making monsters, its only after being mistaken about Jenova and the Ancients does he become a bad person.
He is already alive in the Northern Crater, given more time he probably would have fully healed.

So if Seph succeeded, what would be the next step in his master plan? To just be a god over a dead/dying planet, or just be the next Jenova/Lavos and continue doing what they would do?

In control of those little shits? Yeah maybe. But when Kadaj absorbs Jenova cells, he turns into Sephiroth, not Jenova. Sephiroth also refers to Jenova as "Mother", but that doesn't mean she's in control of anything. To him, Jenova is nothing more then a figurehead, an extension of his will.

He would have turned the planet into a Jenova ship and fucked off across the cosmos. But in AC he also talks about "finding a new planet and building a shining future", which sort of alludes that he wanted to lord over everyone on the planet and find a new home. It's not exactly clear.

This means that Sephiroth is an extension of Jenova then, not the other way around. Check, and mate.

He's not. He's influenced by her, yes, but he calls all the shots at the end of the day. Stop with your headcanon. Material in the game and words from the director say otherwise.

By that point, he and Jenova had basically become one being. He was born with Jenova cells, but they had always been dormant and he had been sane until they activated and he basically went psycho and became Jenova. I'd say his endgame is, like he says, absorb all the mako energy and become a godlike all-powerful entity while sucking the earth of all it's lifeforce, and then probably moving on to the next planet.

>actually getting into discussing the abomination named advent children
oh my, lads

He and Jenova aren't one. They never can be one either. As long as their is Mako and Lifestream energy within Sephiroth, he is a different being.

Sephiroth's plan only makes sense from Jenova's perspective.
Going to planets and absorbing the lifestream there is literally what Jenova does. That's its purpose. Why would Sephiroth ever want that?

Because Jenova is part of who he is. Sephiroth's will is controlling the Jenova cells to come to him, but Jenova's injected cell are undoubtly also influencing Sephiroth's instinct to even want to do this. His plan is exactly the same as what Jenova's used to be.

Is it really Sephiroth's will if his will is directed by the instincts Jenova gave him?

Yes and no. Sephiroth is consciously taking these actions. But considering what he wants to achieve, it feels like he's subconsciously being influenced by Jenova's instincts, who is inherently part of him.

Some people trip on the fact that Cloud is Sephiroth's" clone".

To be fair it's a pretty retarded term to use for it. Cloud, Red and the Nibelheim survivors who were all injected are nothing close to a "clone".

Why was sephiroth a giant in the north crater?

Because low quality shitty field models

That just makes him another "sephiroth clone". All of them were being subconsciously influenced to carry out Jenova's will despite some (such as Cloud) apparently seeming to do what they do for their own reasons.

No, they were being called to travel towards the North Crater, that is Sephiroth's will. Sephiroth has conscious control over Jenova.

Final Fantasy games are little more than the Japanese picking edgy names out of a hat. They're not deep, they're convoluted for the sake of convolution.

The Japanese have only a surface level understanding of western mythology.

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That's how I interpreted it as well.

No, just boring

"You are just a puppet... You have no heart... and cannot feel any pain... How can there be any meaning in the memory of such a being? What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion."

Isn't there lore that supports that Jenova was also manipulating the Cetra in such a manner? I really don't think it is that far fetched that Sephiroth was also being manipulated such so.

I hope the remake expands a bit on Cid and Vincent's relationship, it was pretty progressive at the time but so far in the background you barely notice it

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I consider it lowest common denominator stuff that's easy to follow. It deserves its place in gaming history, but for its scope rather than its story. It was the ultimate poorfag game, providing hundreds of hours of content for completion autists.

The real Sephiroth was killed anyways, by Cloud in the Nibelheim reaction. The Sephiroth we know in the game is a manifestation of Jenova cells. Much like "The Thing", as mentioned earlier. A great deceiver.

Good thread on this: gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/62616914

>GameFAQs

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Does the Japanese script mention whether Sepiroth or Jenova is in control?