Modern RPG

Math teacher here. Children fucking LOATH having to learn percentages. The whole concept completely goes over their ADHD addled brains nowadays. Putting "by 20%" on their would figuratively mean trainstation to them.

That is true, but in this case, it's just the creator wanting to stay true to the way Castlevania games were back then

each point of luck improves drop rates by .5% additively, that adds 4 lck, that is 2%. So if the item was 10% it's now 12%.

>Castlevania games were back then
There is only a single /vr/ Castlevania with equipment.

>game includes numbers in the tool tip
>they don't specify if it's multiplicative or additive

Old games did that shit too only it was even moar cryptic with key items having odd descriptions, usually due to translation fuckery. Eventually when everyone got pissed at that shit and guides became less profitable, devs just put in the percentages next to the ability/item like they fucking should have. Then of course games got moar casual and numbers hurt the poor ameritard's brain so they took them away. And now everything sucks.
>dev puts in an entire section in-game showing what every stat does to the point that you could beat the game on a piece of paper just with the math
What a great experience

B-but math is hard. More cutscenes plz.

Hitman 2 is a really great example of using Options and Toggles to make the most of the user experience. The only problem is most new players don't know they're there until they're halfway through the game. You can pretty much turn on/off every hand-holding aspect of the game so you're left on your own. There's like 20 options to toggle UI elements.

99% of the time this kind of "mystery" is just pointless. It adds nothing fun or immersive to the game at all and just makes it pointlessly less interesting to make decisions in games that are often about making decisions.

>99% of the time
Whoa whoa whoa. I'm gonna have to stop you there. I can't handle percentages.

>dev puts in an entire section in-game showing what every stat does to the point that you could beat the game on a piece of paper just with the math
Unironically a great feeling.

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Numbers are the bane of immersion, stats MUST be hidden from the player

I've never met or heard of anyone in the videogame industry who realizes this. The reason why stats are so prominent in real-life RPGs is because SOMEONE has to make the necessary calculations, and without the help of a computer the players are forced to do this boring work themselves.

When computers enter the scene, there is absolutely NO REASON why the player should have to see any numbers on the screen. Indeed, in my days as gamemaster back in high school I used to roll all the dice behind a screen: my players would simply tell me the action they wanted their characters to perform and I would respond with the result, without them ever having to calculate anything.

This is how CRPGs should work. The reason why they never work like that is purely historical. As mentioned earlier in this essay, CRPG designers initially focused on the stats because it was the easiest part of real RPGs they felt they could simulate. Thus CRPGs started out as strategy games and never really moved on from there, creating, in the process, generations of players with an unhealthy numbers fetishism who miss the point of role-playing entirely.

The end result is that decades-old adventure games such as The Secret of Monkey Island have more role-playing elements in them than most anything that gets passed off as a CRPG these days. (Some BioWare titles such as Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect do contain elements of role-playing, but the strategy and action components are so completely dominant, that the games end up feeling almost nothing like RPGs.)

only really needed in grindy loot based games. not necessary in metroidvanias. you want more loot, you equip an item that gives you more.

>...in my days as gamemaster back in high school I used to roll all the dice behind a screen: my players would simply tell me the action they wanted their characters to perform and I would respond with the result, without them ever having to calculate anything
I'm sorry to tell you you were a shit DM

Favorite
>Slight
>Slightly
>Moderate
>Greatly
>Massive
Or as such.

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>diablo 2
>fhr, fcr, ias, frw, fbr, ctb, crit, deadly, cb, -target defense, ignore target's defense, ow, kb, piercing, bonus dmg vs +%, slows target, freezes target, blinds target

>modern games
>+10 fire damage

This is so wrong.

the nintendo fanbase ladies and gentlemen

Age of Empires III's descriptions are usually brief, but there's a "verbose" option in the settings that adds more detailed descriptions.

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based

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who cares, math is for incels anyway

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>multiple items with same stat
>all of them just say "increase stat"
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>Ring A increase Drop Rate and can be bought from most shops for 5,000g
>Ring B greatly increase Drop Rate and is only found in a hidden treasure chest in a mid-game dungeon
>Ring C grants a huge boost to Drop Rate and is an extremely rare drop from an optional boss that's harder than the end game boss

Datamine reveals that

>Ring A increase Drop Rate by 0.5%
>Ring B increase Drop Rate by 0.8%
>Ring C increase Drop Rate by 1.1%

but MUH MYSTERY

Ahh fuck I remember this pasta.

>mystery
>spend 5000 hours to work out your drop rate has increased by 0.1%
T-t-thanks user-kun

>Wearing two Ring As is better than Ring B and nearly as good as Ring C
What the fuck how is this acceptable?

The whole point of the numbers is for players to determine their worth.

>classic RPG
>miss

Only two ring slots and effects don't stack.

You don't really need to know the exact percentages.
Case in point, you don't even know the actual calculations behind any of those stats in the screen, nor you need to, yet you don't complain about those, because that's simply something you easily learn by playing and has really no importance besides getting higher numbers.

Nobody with a brain cares about small details like that, no RPG ever needs you to know the ins and outs of calculations outside of what's already shown, not to mention that is right, just apply a shred of common sense can tell you the worth of an item in 90% of the cases, simple empirical observation takes care of the rest.

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>Only two ring slots
bad game design
>effects don't stack.
bad game design

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this is Yea Forums in 2019

Exactly

>enemy has a rare drop
>equip ring to improve drop rate
>don't know the drop rate or by what factor the ring improves this unknown drop rate
>kill enemy 38 times, still don't get the drop

>another person without the drop rate ring kills the enemy
>gets rare drop the first time

Using facts what objective observations can be made about this situation?

Actually pretty based but I see value for both types of game. Sometimes you want to min-max your ridiculous build and really have to consider getting +5% more damage or an almost equal amount of damage but to a specific element that may not work against all enemies and so on. But for an immersive game I think if the standard game had less numbers it would be really cool. But I feel like it's too niche and hard to wrap your head around for a mainstream game.

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you can literally test the fucking thing in 2 minutes
but i guess you want shit spoon fed you
fucking CoD zoomer

>Nobody with a brain cares about small details like that
What you're describing are casuals. Casuals don't care about small details because they only appreciate video games at the surface level. RPGs don't always provide the player with the information they need to fully understand how the game calculates damage resistances. But players can uncover those mechanics through item stats so long as they are presented in a consistent and intuitive way.

So Yea Forums is improving?
Explain how ring of 20% resist > Ring of 50% resist > Ring of 80% resist
is better than
ring of minor immunity > Ring of immunity > ring of greater immunity
Putting numbers to things doesn't instantly make it better

i can kill 100 monsters with the ring, then kill 100 monsters without the ring, while keeping track of how many of each items they drop. or i can just read and understand that it increases the drop chance by 20%

yes, they stack, i tested myself on water-horse that gives you item to be converted in gold
stop lying you dishonest shit

A "Ring of immunity" should be 100%

action 1 true gamer like, have to test stuff and see for himself the results (active mind)
action 2 newline gamer wans everything already given to him, no use of brain (passive mind)

point proven.

because then i know i will take 20% less damage. instead of just seeing minor immunty and not knowing what the fuck that is. it could be 1% and it could be 100%. it could be absolutely worthless and it could be the best ring in the game. there is no way for me to know.

>tfw your class looks like WoW shit at third rank
fuck

That you have shit RNG and are a retard for thinking otherwise

I don't mind it if if there is only a single item with that effect, like dark souls. But if there are multiple items with the same effect, there should be numbers that show which one is better.

You'd have to test it infinite times to get the actual value.

Mixing too many magic rings is dangerous, can cause unintended side effects when too many magic aura mix together. You could turn yourself purple or explode ur something.

>"increased" means additive
>"more" means multiplicative

Saves me 20 minutes saving and loading and scribbling down numbers to determine there was a 20, 50, and 80 percent reduction in the respective damage type and I can plan for future encounters knowing these numbers.

Explain how ring of minor immunity > Ring of immunity > ring of greater immunity
is better than
Ring > Ring > Ring
Putting explanations to things doesn't instantly make it better

based

No. you can see for yourself in a couple of minutes
Grind something with the ring and without. Done.

Make like Dark Souls then
>Ring
>Ring +1
There, try and guess which one is better

this drives me fucking insane in WoW. Everything just has "a chance" to do something without any fucking indication of what the chance is. Even worse is that in the new patch they added items that say they have "a high chance" to do things that seem like they proc just as often as anything else
FUCK

DnD has the worst explanations for it's dumb rules, don't post this shit here ever again.

now do this for every equippable item in the game. """""""fun"""""""

>autismos genuinely do this

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"Chance" is 10%
"High chance" is 20%

>testing stuff, using my own brain to calcule effects is not fun
I guess i have a picture of what kind of person you are

>this thread
why are americans so fucking afraid of math?

>this is what people unironically want here

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if simple division is what you consider using your brain then go ahead and call other people stupid.

I'm sorry you're bad at RPGs. I cleared Durlag's tower at level 1 when I was 12 doing this shit. Spreadsheet and calculators are a great way to 'excel' at any RPG.

I've been here for over a decade, I've seen this pointless argument made by tons of people before you, and even after all these years you retards still pretend that you NEED to see a gorillion of pointless spreadsheets to play the game otherwise IT'S FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE.
Again, none of you care about the very basics and yet have a bitchfit about inane shit like the one in the OP.
>What you're describing are casuals
Not really, casuals are exactly the first people to look up for guides and spreadsheets online because they don't feel at ease when they don't have someone to hold their hand.
Veteran players have already assimilated the basic thought processes so they do not care in the least, in fact it's precisely veterans who have fun learning stuff as they play without a gorillion popups, quest markers and general handholding, those things weren't made for them, they were made for the casual who whines about not having mommy spoonfeeding him everything.

Veterans appreciate subtlety and obfuscation much more than casuals, this is even more evident in the RPG case since there's entire subgenre and even franchise that revolve around planned and methodical obfuscation of data or unusual and less direct player input methods, see Dwarf Fortress, most of the knowledge about the game's finer details is absolutely empirical and obfuscated.

our school system is shit, the majority of adults can not do basic arithmetic after highschool

You can actually just put most of that inside tool-tips when you highlight the respective stat long enough if you don't want all the clutter.

No, you only get a basic understanding where the value might be.
If an item has a 10% drop rate and a ring adds 5% to it, then it doesn't mean you collect 10 in 100 tries without the ring and 15 in 100 with the ring. It's just more likely that the amount you collect is near 10 or 15.

No, i just call stupid people who can't do for themselves simple stuff in games or exaggerate saying that is applied to "every equippable item in the game"

>there's no middle ground between literally not telling the player anything, and Path of Exile
based retard

man i wish i was as wise as you. how does it feel to have been here a whole decade? you're probably the smartest guy in this thread. probably the oldest browser on this board even.

can you recommend me some video games to play because i would really like to be your friend.

>basic understanding
yes, obviously. No one is crazy enough to actually seek the exact % of something in a game. What the hell are you talking about?
That is why the game has one or two of said items, you can compare both and done (or its value in the market, duh)

if i see "helmet of melee damage" in a store for 10000 gold and i already have "helmet of sword damage". how am i supposed to know what helmet is better? do i really have to buy the helmet and do a scientific experiment in order to find out what helmet is the best for me?

are you fucking retarded or do you think this is good game design?

FFXI has a thief class with treasure hunter traits. SE had to release a statement on its effectiveness because people were unsure if it actually worked or not. In my linkshell we had people that were banned from thief, since their treasure hunter seemed to never work

I'm sorry you feel like having to do spreadsheets in modern RPGs

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Normalfags everywhere are afraid of math.

you know the game shows you the number of damage right?

its 9 30 am in america guv

>drop rate +10% on 1% item rate
>drop rate is now 1.1%, not 11%

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see
that guy has been here for a DECADE. not knowing what shit do in games is fun and extremely hardcore for hardcore gamers like myself.

That's what I initially meant by "actual value".
You could have good or bad luck and get a wrong impression of a ring, unless you try it out a great amount of times, which takes more than 2 minutes.
All it adds is needless hassle.

You have a 1% chance to get this item there is a ring that increases drop chance by 10% so if you have that ring equipped you have an 11% chance for it to drop.

With the ring equipped you kill the monster 153 times before you get a drop.

Without the ring equipped you kill the monster 34 times before you get a drop.

Did knowing the odds before hand actually help you in anyway or change the outcome? Obviously not. So why do you want to see numbers so badly if they don't actually mean anything.

>you know the game shows you the number of damage right?
no it doesnt. why should it? isnt it better if the game doesnt show me damage numbers or health values and i actually have to go and count how many hits it takes to kill everything in order to find out if a new helmet is better than my old one?

>some % stats are additive
>some % stats are multiplicative

>I've been here for over a decade

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>Stat numbers are the same as quest markers
You're an idiot

then in the case of helmet of sword damage vs helmet of melee damage it would be best to assume sword damage helmet would be larger than melee damage helmet due to its specialization of swords
unless your sword helmet only cost 100 gold

>game says it multiplies by 40%
>"what a pile of shit"
>Find out later it's actually 140%
Why do they do this?

Because retards can't handle their OCD

>assume
with my system you can tell just by reading the stat window. now tell me why your system is better.

the way Path of Exile does that is good
"increased" means additive, "more" means multiplicative

>no it doesnt
what game are you talking about? I'm reffering to Op's picture
I think you are missing the point here, hence you said earlier "every single item" the game is designed so you don't have to go crazy testing every single one. Obviously damage should show, because you have a multitude of weapons and bufs.
Maybe its too much for you, but that is the way it has been and general people love it

This

Lose weight

Why don't they just say additive and multiplicative and eliminate any ambiguity?

I mean sure once you're playing and you've got your calculator out and you've noticed increased always means additive and more always means multiplicative but why not just tell you that from the start?

a hypothetical game. i'm talking about game design. how showing stats is better than not showing stats.

the guy claimed you could just do an experiment to see how good an item is. but then you would have to do that same experiment for every single item you find if you want to know if its an upgrade or not. hence "every single item".

Damn. Guess I better for a forum more suited to casuals like me, who played FFXI at 60 and 75 cap

Fuck showing numbers in video games. The only numbers i need is US and A!

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Don't forget Beastmaster and Dragoon both being completely fucked over because of this shit for years until they finally explained how pet exp works and that yes Beastmaster is for parties and is not a solo class.

>This completely unnecessary handholding ISN'T the same as this other completely unnecessary handholding
>because muh numbers
Even if you knew the exact percentage of that Ring's bonus to your drop rate it would still be completely fucking useless when the game doesn't tell you about item drop rates to begin with AND the inherent Luck calculations for drops, so you don't need one piece of data to actually understand the worth of that ring in depth, you'd need at the very least three.

Eventually you'll go that far to the deeper end you'll play more with your excel spreadsheets than the game itself and pretend your OCD is completely normal and other people are casuals, let alone that 99% of games ever made are badly designed because they "obfuscate" too much.

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oh no no, if you are just doing the"show everything" vs "don't show everything" we are talking about two different things here

I'm talking about castlevanias and bloodstained. I just don't think is a problem a game don't show the exaclty % of items such as "item drop" or "chance of not consuming mana"
damage showing is essencial you know the numbers in games with multitude of weapons, so you can test yourself and see what is better

they don't want to reveal how useless everything is
they also don't want to have to explain to you whether stacking works multiplicatively or additively, and explain the difference for brainlets

Posted just enough that people still fall for it.

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>INT 10 vs INT 2
There, fixed RPG's for you.

Even without a full picture knowing Ring A is 20% on all enemies at all times and Ring B is 35% plant type enemies only and Ring C is 40% when the moon is full will help you decide which ring to use and when better than

Ring A: Improve drop rate
Ring B: Improve drop rate on plant enemies
Ring C: Improve drop rate when the moon is full

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Appraisal Skill: 56 vs Appraisal Skill: 2
Appraisal skill determines a character ability to judge the value and properties of equipment. Appraisal skill is influenced by Int, Wis, Class, and background and experience in mercantilism.

>he thinks playing RPG's like a competitive game is skillful
It's called RPG for a reason, if you can't roleplay as your character you're clearly not very good at it.

It's not like it would matter if they told you, you're going to go sim it regardless.

Item stats can lead you to understanding how the game calculates things so long as item stats are consistent an concise. Item stats are what the player interacts with and make decisions based upon directly. To make an informed decision the player needs to know an items worth which they determine by what that item's stats contribute and influence. Player strategy is then improved or changed depending on what items they have available to them.

Even better senpaitachi.

too many numbers

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yes since +10% is a percentage increase of whatever value it's modifying
now if it was +10

multiplicative not additive dummy

Increased/decreased and more/less make for better readability [percentage] [type of the effect] [target(s) of the effect]

Makes it easy to read (literally read, instead of just listing all the variables of the effect) the effects concisely and fluently in a sentence structure even if you have types outside the additive/multiplicative paradigm like conversion

>not demonic dick
One job, user

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But why do you need numbers when you can just say weak, strong, very strong or some other descriptive language?

You've turned what should be a visceral experience where you make decisions on the fly with your gut and live with the consequences into a math problem with an objective solution destroying the feeling the developer was trying to install in you.

>You've turned what should be an objective solution into a visceral experience where you make decisions on the fly with your gut and live with the consequences, destroying the feeling the developer was trying to install in you.
fixed that for you

+000,1% its not actually working

Because the actual equation is MonsterDropRate(RateBonus+1) = FinalDropRate

So 1(.10+1) = 1.1%

No game designer wants you to break out the spreadsheet and/or datamine their game. They want you to play it as intended and feel they way the intended for you to feel in the moment.

t. game designer

Except that very example you made means nothing because you don't take into consideration factors like inherent drop rates of plant enemies' drops or what's tied to a full moon event in game.
So you're back to step A again because you don't have enough background data, what if most plant enemies have absurdly low drop rates compare to anything else? What if a full moon inherently boosts drop rates all around so you can stack more multipliers, or what if it doesn't?
>Item stats can lead you to understanding how the game calculates things so long as item stats are consistent an concise.
Yeah, that's what the example in OP does, I'm glad we agree.
>To make an informed decision the player needs to know an items worth which they determine by what that item's stats contribute and influence.
Data without context is completely useless, again, I can tell you one ring increases drops by 50% while another ring adds a raw +20 to basic drop calculation, but you don't have access to the inherent drop data, how do you determine which is better?
I can give you an ability that gives you a 10% bonus to STR at all times and another ability that adds a +5 raw STR bonus on combo damage, but you don't know anything about STR calculation either way, how do you determine which is better when you don't even know how a single point in STR matters in the bigger picture?

It's all empirical knowledge and basic game design, you LEARN how to play along the way, while you play, this is true for every game, it applies even to the more transparent RPGs and believe it or not, there's many people out there who like learning this way, people like to experiment and discover things on their own.

What do you think people will do when the game doesnt tell them information about enemies or items? they will data mine it to get the answers.

>t. game designer
jesus christ

Except you know for a fact that when the moon is full and you're trying to get something from plants it's actually better to just use Ring C instead of Ring B.

Tell me what Castlevania game did this right now, If you can't show me, I will be convinced you guys are just have paranoia

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What if plants don't drop anything unique or useful?
See, you can keep looping this as much as you like.

>are
Goddamnit

Only if you keep moving the goalposts sure.

Metroidvanias aren't RPGs you dumb bitch so why even bring it up

>American
That would be the big Macobesity sword with 2 with 50 damage 33% hitchance and poisen

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Thing is with drop rates unless the effect is huge you can almost never tell if it's actually working. Like you get that 10% bonus to drop rate and can you ever really tell if it's 11% or 1.1%? Unless you sit there with a pad of paper and actually count out how often things drop and how many things you've killed you never really know if this shit is actually working or not.

I remember some JRPG I played back on the PS1 and it had an item that improved drop rates by like "10%" and it worked like 10% meant 1.1% instead of 11% but when I used gameshark to figure out how it worked it actually ignored any trailing decimals from the calculation so if you didn't roll over whole percentage point it actually didn't do anything because the value can only register between 0-255. So I could see with the item off the value it was reading and using in the calculation was 8 then you put on the item and it's still 8 but mathematically it should be 8.9 and as soon as it rolls over to 9 it's 9 until it's 10, ect.

So even if they tell you the numbers the numbers might still by lies because those numbers aren't the numbers the game is actually using.

Games are a set of rules the player needs to understand to master.
That's all. They're not "interactive experiences" or "story driven adventures", they're games. Otherwise you have the wrong medium.
That's why numbers are required, because otherwise you hide things from the player to extend the game beyond what is reasonable. Even more pronounced by the fact that everything has a wiki now where people datamine stuff you should've been shown in the first place.
Numbers are the building blocks of games, in fact they're made up entirely of numbers. Brainlets go watch movies.

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Gee,i don't know, maybe because OP brought it up with his dumb thread, don't call me a dumb bitch while you are one yourself

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>moving goalposts
I suggest you reread OP and work on your reading comprehension

>What do you think people will do when the game doesnt tell them information about enemies or items? they will data mine it to get the answers.
No they won't, they'll make decisions with the information they have in the moment and go with it. No one stops mid-stream to break out the spreadsheets, hex editors, and debug tools to datamine shit while they're playing. They do that after the fact if at all and the people who do do that (total losers) are like .001% of players at best.

>No u
Great comeback, fag xD

I can keep moving them as much as I like since that's the whole point about contextual lack of data, and you can't do anything about it.
>Games are a set of rules the player needs to understand to master.
True, the problem is those rules are just basic bitch math problems stacked on top of each other over and over, and there's no fun in that unless you're an overly autistic math minor who's concerned more with the math than the actual game.
People don't play GG for the frame data, they play because it's a fun game BEYOND the frame data, just as people play RPGs for the dungeon crawling, demon asskicking and sometimes horrible writing, otherwise we'd all be playing the Switch port of Super Street Sudoku Turbo Arcade 2 Portable: The Challengers&Knuckles Featuring Girolamo Cardano from the Liber de ludo aleae™ series.

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Except in this situation you already have enough context to make the decision at hand. What item you get is irrelevant to this question. Keep trying though, you'll come to a point eventually I'm sure.

It's true though. The thread has been about Castlevania all along.

>What item you get is irrelevant to this question.
Yeah, because I'm sure it's totally worth it to swap a ring for those common potion drops.

I genuienly agree with this copipe. make elaborate numerical systems but keep them mostly hidden. instead having numbers tell your character's strenght stat you could increase the character model's muscularity. video games have immense potential to be much more than outdated and crude "crpgs"

SaGa games would give you whiny bitches an aneurysm with their complexity.

Again irrelevant, the question is "which ring should I use in this situation" with numbers you have an objective answer to that question even without the full context. If it's just going by the ambiguous description you can't adequately infer which one will actually be better in that situation with numbers you can. If you want to continue you have to disprove this point, not move the goalposts or say "umm, what if the drops aren't even that good!".

The point is empirical data even without a full breakdown is still better than vague descriptors because you can use those numbers which have immutable values tied to them. When they say high chance or some chance you can see a relationship that high is better than some but by what degree, and how does high and some compare to large or big or whatever other words might be mixed in.

Drg/blu was dope

How many of you have fell for the item drop rate increase meme over the years? Where an item or equip gives you a 5% drop rate up and you think it's a flat additional bonus but it means a 5% of the existing drop rate so it only goes up by like 0.03 or some shit

New games have lots of shit loot, doesn’t help that a lot of them use randomly generated trash that never does anything exciting. Back in the day you were excited as fuck when you got something like Carsomyr for killing a red dragon, nowadays you might upgrade from a +22% fire damage weapon to a +24%.

Yea Forums at large doesn't play SaGa, most people hate it.
That's a series made by someone who willingly takes the Ivory Tower design model to its logical extreme, it's really not a series for everyone and caters to a very particular core audience, although it's a great example of complex games that give information indirectly and force you to learn through empirical observation.
Besides, SaGa games have largely become more and more transparent through the years, they're not as "hardcore" in that as they used to be, back in the days you had to infer data based on inherent unspoken rules like knowing how a breastplate works differently from a full bodysuit, nowadays you just get a comprehensive stat sheet for everything and people somehow still complain about the games being obscure.
>The point is empirical data even without a full breakdown is still better than vague descriptors
All games have empirical data and no game in this thread have vague descriptors, even OP's pic is actually accurate since LCK is the item drop modifier in the game and it indeed tells you the exact amount of LCK you get from equipping the ring, nothing about that is vague outside of again, how LCK calculation actually works, which is absolutely irrelevant since all you need to know is that you need high luck to have higher drop chances.
You are literally arguing about nothing at all, like the typical autist having a shitfit in this hell of a board.

So you can't actually argue the point and now you're backpedaling from your position. Just making that clear.

>So you can't actually argue the point
I can't because you're literally saying I was right all along by agreeing that empirical data helps you understand the game either way without the need of a full breakdown, meaning even "vague descriptors" which nobody actually could show an example of aren't inherently worse than an excel spreadsheet because as long as you're not a literal vegetable you can easily infer data by just playing the fucking game and not worry about meaningless stuff you eventually learn on your own.
But no, you're so fucking obsessed with proving you're "right" you can't even understand you've been agreeing with me all along and now have to pretend otherwise.

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>That's a series made by someone who willingly takes the Ivory Tower design model to its logical extreme, it's really not a series for everyone and caters to a very particular core audience, although it's a great example of complex games that give information indirectly and force you to learn through empirical observation.
>Besides, SaGa games have largely become more and more transparent through the years, they're not as "hardcore" in that as they used to be, back in the days you had to infer data based on inherent unspoken rules like knowing how a breastplate works differently from a full bodysuit, nowadays you just get a comprehensive stat sheet for everything and people somehow still complain about the games being obscure.
Elaborate further, i never had the opportunity of playing a game of the series

So again, I was right and you were wrong. You didn't have to type out a whole post to prove something we both already knew.

>o RPG ever needs you to know the ins and outs of calculations outside of what's already shown
excuse me?

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It's a Square RPG series created and directed by Akitoshi Kawazu, wildly experimental in design all around, notable for various things from creating the first handheld RPG(Final Fantasy Legend in the west) to embracing core tabletop design with games like Unlimited SaGa and creating a massive shitstorm for being a one of a kind experiment.
The series is built around mechanical depth, non linearity and replay value, it is also notorious for using many exotic mechanics like sparking and being almost prohibitevely obscure, old games in the series barely showed you any stat even on equipment, you had to infer those by looking at the armor type, item descriptions and testing them yourself, and there were shitload of hidden attributes like immunities or weapons that could use hidden built in attacks or spells.

You probably heard of The Last Remnant, that's also an entry in the series (one of the less obscure and complex too), those games are almost reviled in the west because they actively hide most information from the player, you're really given the bare minimum and the game expects you to learn along the way.
The good thing is these games are specifically designed to give you information in other way, from simply looking at an enemy design to paying attention to your characters' performance or naming, TLR in particular even had an indepth naming system for drops so that you could eventually understand where to find something just by looking at the item's name.
Nowadays the games are far more transparent as I said before, they still do largely retain the "learn it yourself" philosophy but they do not hide most of your equipment's stat or other things like character weight, in depth formation bonus info or hidden weapon/tech properties, hell they even visually show you when you applied a debuff successfully, back then they didn't even tell you that, they're the closest thing to Monte Cook's Ivory Tower idea in videogame form, and absolutely fantastic RPGs.

The OP literally posted a picture of Bloodstained, with the only ring in the game that increases drop rates for Items, what even is the point in showing the percentage since it's the only one that does this, this thread was made by a either a troll or an OCD autist, I was talking specifically about that game like how I assume the people I replied to did, If you wanna talk about other games go ahead, I don't care, my original reply was posted before people started talking about all kinds of games, but I also admit that I am still curious about what game gives that low percentage you posted

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>Fucking every modern RPG does this now. is it so hard to write "...by X%" at the and of the line?
>every modern RPG
Pay attention kiddo.

Nothing like reading a novella for every piece of armor you get

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>item with 0.01% droprate, now drops with 1.01% chance

You don't have to hope anything, you know for a fact the ring works, you just don't know to what degree.

It's not a book , it's a video game

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Dude, did you not read what I said, I was talking about BLOODSTAINED, If he wanted he could have posted another fucking image, why the hell did he even post that for a modern RPG, the reason it doesn't show percentages is because metroidvania's never had that before on items, this is literally a staple from a formula older than most posters here, why do I even bother, you probably didn't even read what I said

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see keep up

>Slight Increase
>Increases by some
>Small increase
>Marginal increase
>No real concept of how anything actually compares to each other

I fucking hate this shit so much.

I just replied to it idiot

Name games that have both "slight" and "small"

I actually had kind of an interesting idea for ring slots once upon a time. Basically, when equipping rings you'd be given an olde tyme image of a hand and when a ring was equipped, you'd see a sphere/circle appear around the ring to indicate its influence.

Extremely powerful rings would have larger circles than weaker ones, so you could equip multiple rings with less powerful effects while some rings would have circles large enough to engulf the hand, making them the only one you can equip at a time. Common rings would have no circle at all and could be worn for decoration.

You could add in something like an effect if rings do happen to overlap, either a set effect or a different effect depending on which rings were interfering with each other.

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Oh, and this would obviously lend itself to some strategic placement of rings to try and maximize hand real estate.

Neat

>equip powerful rings on all fingers
>hand becomes a nuke

I'm stealing this idea if I ever decide to make a RPG.

Fukken rude.

>SMT IV
>Blight describes itself as "minor damage to all enemies" or some shit
>It's actually just barely below the highest tier version of the move and breaks the game in half

Fucking hate that shit.

Fuck PoE, and not just for this.

Increased and more are both multiplicative, but they apply at different stages of the equation.
It look something like
damage = damage * ( ( (1+total_increased) * (1+total_more) ) + total_additive )

additives add to the base damage before multiplications.

I don't know about those exact two words but Dragon's Dogma is exactly what game I had in mind here. Items can recover a "bit of health" and you are looking at anything between like 60 HP or 300 HP, and like a dozen increments in between. Then an item that just "recovers health" heals for 330. Something that recovers "A fair bit of health" heals for 350. It's stupid as shit and renders most of the recovery item descriptions fucking useless.

this doesn't make any sense

yeah, because looking at a wiki every 20 mins to save time "testing" weapons for nothing means you have autism...

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yeah my brain did a fucky wucky

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Well consider this - You have one ring that doubles your damage and lets you kill shit in half the time, or one that ups your drop rate by 10%, boosting your drop chance from 1% to an impressive 1.1%. You are way better off killing twice as many things in the same time frame compared to just upping your odds at each drop by such a small amount.

>+50% to crit chance
>wow that's huge
>it's actually +50% of the base 5%

I love doing the math and seeing the build come together

More like how the fuck do people find out the numbers? It always happens and it’s weird shit.

Damn is Diablo 2 worth picking up still?

yes

By this logic, you might as well never increase drop rate like in PoE where it’s abysmal.

I remember being mad at FFXII for not having a proper in game weapon guide. Went through the whole game not knowing different type of weapon had their own damage formulas, with certain group of weapons that normally would count as "physical attack" pulling their calculations from magic stats

The GBA Castlevamias are older than SotN was when /vr/ was created.

Fuck you, and fuck DnD’s obvious patch job. That and the “you can’t wear armor and use magic” are made up solely for game balance purposes, which is ok in itself, but lazily explanations are not.

Kill yourself, min-maxing scum.

>Russian character
>200% american
Really makes you think

>make a fist
>explode

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no, like diablo 3 you're supposed to wear 76% extra magic find that does nothing.

>That and the “you can’t wear armor and use magic” are made up solely for game balance purposes
Not quite, iron and metals were considered antimagic materials in many cultures, that's why you had iron rings or amulets, or why people put horseshoes on their doors.
Besides, you can invest in Arcane Armor training to reduce or nullify magic failure %, but honestly
>Mages
>needing armor
When I can stack Mirror Image, Displacement, Stone Skin, Mage Armor and whatever else, there's literally zero point in having a mage with a suit of armor, and non arcane spellcasters don't even have that problem to begin with since Divine magic has no somatic elements, one of the many reasons why Clerics were batshit insane in 3.5E.

The worse offender when it comes to hidden stats/effects is FF XI, no game whatsoever come close.

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That's already triple the amount of info of say, Romancing SaGa 2.

You missed the entire point. All the info displayed are actually completely pointless.

>Staff mainly used by BLMs
>List effects only relevant for Melee (DEX+ / Hit Rate etc.) while nobody use those staves for melee battle
>Doesn't list the most important effect: greatly enhance accuracy and power of all lightning offensive spells (and exact values of that are complete unknown)

Same goes with picture related. No clue how much the Matk value is. Even having the value means nothing since nobody fully understand the damage formula. Conditions to trigger the latent effect not listed either.

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