He's mid high-tier. He has lots of strong tools and plenty of exploitable weaknesses...

not to mention, the most annoying characters, the zonning ones, are a joke to him even without his Down-B. He has a very powerfull Charge Shoot that does 37% and kills earlier than Samus Charge Shot, his side B also kills early and comes fast but takes almost half of his MP, but you'll never be low on MP if you know how to manage it.
And don't forget he has a fucking sword so by default his aerial are better than most no matter how bad his framedata is, which personally i don't think is that bad.

Smash has been "trying" to be a balanced and competitive game since Smash 4, it was going well until the two last DLC broke the Meta, specially the last.
Nintendo has been hosting tournament and has been improvement their ruleset, not to mention that Nintendo has been sponsoring tournament recently.
Smash can be both a party and competitive game.

So then what's wrong with hero being the s tier character in ultimate?
What is the actual legitimate reason other than "wahh wahh I'm a virgin and I don't like RNG" (despite the fact that skillfully manipulation of RNG is more impressive and requires more skill than storing button combos in muscle memory)

Fox is only the best because the physics of the game and the character's properties give him the highest skill ceiling. It's not just because he has the strongest moves and best attacks.

because if a character is too OP people will play around that character OR play only that character and stuff like that kills the competitive scene.
Just see Brawl's Competitive scene.

hero doesn't have the best attacks either, players who do well as him will have to balance probability with slow movesets
smash isn't supposed to be competitive so who the hell cares?

I don't think it is a problem if he's the best (which I seriously seriously doubt). The game has nearly 80 characters and very surprising amounts of differentiation between them. Unless a character is really brazenly op then I'm not that concerned, and Hero is definitely not that.

Go try hitting his Bair to get somebody off you. I think his only decent aerial is Fair. His nair is weak and doesn't combo for shit, his dair spikes ok and does good damage but has so much lag and is a pretty short stab, and his up-air is fast but lacks range and damage. He murders spacers and mixed spacers (Rip for my main Link) but overall he's easy to exploit. Recovery is easy as fuck to punish at most ranges, jab is weak, only good tilt is up tilt, idk man he does a lot of damage with some attacks but he won't keep up with the tops

people dont care about your opinion on the definition of "competitive".

My matters more than yours seeing as I"m the one with the developer and 99% of the fanbase behind me. No one cares about you trying to shoehorn smash into a competitive scene

>waste MP
>can’t recover
How hard was it to take it down

Sakurai took a shit and called it a steak, you should go eat it.

>3k people enter a tournament
>iS NoT cOmpeTitivE

I don't think he is broken, but I do believe he need rework.
Anyone competent will never lose all of his MP, so I'd say maybe just not letting him recover MP by hitting opponents is good enough to balance him.
Then again if you edgeguard him enough times to make him run out of MP, that's an ez kill since no UpB to recover.

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>Fast characters with good frame data
You can't use this argument because "fast characters with good frame data" beat EVERYONE else. Of course he struggles against S tiers, everyone does. The problem is he dominates below the tier

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literally retarded attempt at an analogy.
That's not how it works, dumbass

To be fair it's Quickplay, lag is an issue, Zamus would've gone for a safer neutral B to hit him out of the menu.
I just camp and see his menu whenever he tries to do something not always works but it's something.

THIS.
And this means a Hero main will need to learn less matchups and focus on the important ones AKA the top tiers.

>shit framedata
I think not

So the problem isn't that he's even the best, it's that he's a really good gatekeeper?
fucking hell smashfags are literally retarded. Why is it okay for s tiers to be unbeatable by lower tier characters but not Hero?

His specials and smash attacks just need knock back or damage nerfs, that's really it. His normal shit isn't that good and Command Selection takes some time to properly navigate on top of the RNG rolls.

Ultimate has no combos

>Of course he struggles against S tiers, everyone does. The problem is he dominates below the tier
I've been saying the same thing about Ike yet everyone defends that piece of shit braindead character.

The part where ZSS dives right into the Magic Burst Hero was literally waiting to to drop with the cursor right on it never ceases to make me laugh.

Then tell me, how it does work user?, enlighten me.
If the developers are SPONSORING tournaments.
If there's a big community willing to enter those tournaments
If people travel from another continents to play in tournaments
How is that not a competitive scene?

He's mid tier a gimmicky faggot that will be thoroughly figured out within a month or two.

He's an s-tier boss that will become almost unbeatable by everyone by the end of the month, and sakurai won't nerf him because he represents what smash is at it's core

Sakurai calls it a competitive-action game, they have official online and offline tournaments, competitive 1v1 modes, how is it not competitive?

>frame data

Attached: 1562851621492.png (644x800, 15K)

What does Japan think of him? Are they complaining about the RNG?

He has too much RNG bullshit to be considered just a mid tier. I know it's early to call these things but he's fundamentally better than any mid tier in the game just because of what he can do by pressing a button and hoping.

So he's a good character who isn't even the best and people are complaining why?

>oh my god there's some randomness in the game THAT CAN'T STAND it ruins muh integrity of the game!! ignore the fact that the real default game has randomness in it, that's not how it's really supposed to be played!!

Any game can be competitive if there are players who want it to be. People play TCGs and shit like Pokemon competitively and they're influenced heavily by luck. The question is if it's a "good" competitive game, and that varies from person to person.

He needs to be nerfed, not because he's too good, but because he's boring to fight against when used by anyone who is half decent

All the 4m+ GSP players I've faced rely way too much on camping + magic spam, they rarely use his sword set which is actually pretty good

A careful MP manager can keep anyone at bay with those huge hitboxes and massive damage

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>You're supposed to use items reeeeeee
>Can turn off all items with the press of a button

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What characters are actually fun to fight against? It’s only ever fun if you’re winning.

So then why does the addition of this character ruin the integrity of smashes 'competitive' scene?
yet you can't turn off hero's RNG so now what?

>yet you can't turn off hero's RNG so now what?

We are. He's getting banned next month at the latest.

>So then why does the addition of this character ruin the integrity of smashes 'competitive' scene?
It doesn't.

is not the best YET, it's been three days.
He has too many tools, kill power and potential.
>Neutral B stronger than Samus and deals more damage
>Side B is safe and has good range and fully charged can kill as early as 50% mid stage.
>Up B has edgeguard potential, it has a hitbox that last 50+ frames when fully charged
>4 to 5 spells are always good to use in his Down B.
>Majority of moves on Down B come on frames 6 including projectiles.
>Down B can be canceled with a jump so it's more easier to use it when outside than in the stage.

keep coping, he's never getting banned or nerfed
then why are tournament smashfags complaining?

So let's say he's the best character. So what? There will always be a best character

>then why are tournament smashfags complaining?
Hoes mad.

>keep coping, he's never getting banned or nerfed

He is, Sakurai is even thinking about removing him from being on quickplay too.

it literally is just a case of hoes mad

>this level of denial
You're going to have to learn how to play a game that has RNG in it now. Get over it, smash is defaulted with RNG anyway

Again it will be a Bayoneta or Meta Knight situation and since the competitive scene in smash has matured much more since those time, the community will take action if it hurts the scene as a whole.
But only time will tell and he'll only get banned if he's leagues above any other character.

There's nothing to learn when playing against hero. You either get lucky or you don't.

...

he isn't even near the level of meta or bayoneta. It's just crybabies mad about RNG.
utilizing RNG intelligently is far more skillful than burning button combos into muscle memory. The proof? It's objectively more difficult to be a poker world champion than to win a smash tournament, or even any real fighting game tournament.
This is the type of retard I"m talking about. So there's nothing to learn about when playing in a poker tournament? Sorry buddy, intelligently utilizing randomness is more difficult than button comboing, especially in a dynamic continuous system like smash.

He feels like a good Robin

He's nowhere near as good as Tr4sh Bayonetta or Brawl Meta Knight though.

I learned that you have to stay on him, and he has trash normals, so you need to abuse that. Sounds like you’re not actually trying to learn.

>This is the type of retard I"m talking about. So there's nothing to learn about when playing in a poker tournament? Sorry buddy, intelligently utilizing randomness is more difficult than button comboing, especially in a dynamic continuous system like smash.

I'm sorry user. I know the only quickplay match you ever won was when you got a lucky hocus pocus with Hero. Maybe if you try hard enough someday you can win without rng.

(You)

>stay on him
>get hit by spell
>why did you just run in and get hit?????

>all extremely limited by MP, side B and Neutral B can only be done twice at max charge

Yeah, it's always funny
>Wow, nothing I could have done, move busted
Says the guy that is literally standing and could easily shield it instead of stupidly jumping into it.

I think what people need to do is practice when it's safe to approuch a Hero with MB in their menu. Because it needs a certain distance and depends on character, but air is never safe against it. It also throws you up when it can, even if you get hit by the bottom. So depending on stage, you can have tech chances at ledge, not with smooth walled ones like Duck hunt though, at least that I have been able to pull of. The amount of times I have seen people just jump into it when they have a character that can easily avoid it is just silly though. Fucking Villager decides to jump and stand right next to hero for half a second before MB gets unleashed, when he could have gone to ledge, fallen away and used his recover and been perfectly safe. I think the prospect of so much kill potential just fries peoples brains and they make stupid decisions fighting him.

To be honest is not TOTAL RNG, some moves have more chance of appearing.
Example:
Kamikaze, Hocus Pocus and Heal don't show as often as the others
Zooms appears more when you are off stage

it could be my RNG or of all the people i've been watching, but it has been a consistent patern.

Is just not RNG, the spells/moves it has are too unbalanced and it has many of them.

Why are people just standing around letting Hero select and pick a spell?

Never had that problem when using Ken, just block his shit, roll, or try to challenge it with a faster attack.

I don't use hero retard. Sorry that you get mad at the fact that intelligently utilizing RNG requires more skill than spending 10 hours burning button combos into muscle memory. One requires intelligence and fast processing and reaction, the other is just using pre-burned muscle memory. Or do you think walking down the street takes more skill than running through an obstacle course you've never seen before?
Either way hero is never getting nerfed or banned so you're going to have to adapt and learn

>intelligently utilizing RNG
>get hocus pocus super mushroom
>damn im so smart

Any character which is built around waiting, or making you go to them, or both, is a pisser

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>go Ridley in 4 player QP
>3 sword users
>within 10 seconds I'm at 120%
It's like these guys are trying to hit each other, but I manage to get in the way of every single attack.

FUCKED UP MY FACE

He's representative of conflict itself.
From competitive players vs Sakurai to West vs East when it comes wanting him around.

So none of them essentially.

I feel you, that’s why I don’t use Ridley in free for all’s. TOO BIG

>controlling the map so you can be safe enough to roll and get a good spell
>get rewarded for it
>"grr he's not good he just got lucky!"
go to a professional poker tournament and see how many times you win. You should win half the time because it's all luck, right?

>try to challenge it with a faster attack
Don't say that, only a couple of Hero's spells come out slower then frame 6. Last thing you want is to be in the middle of an attack while Hero blindly casts Thwack. But if your string is done correctly, he shouldn't be able to open menu anyway.

>and that proper RNG manipulation
Explain how Critical Hits are a test of skill.

I agree for Command Selection. But please explain the skill factor in Critical Hits.

>Hero requieres RNG manipulation and that requires skill!!!
>Press Down B
>Woops, didn't get what i want
>*Press Shield Button and Down B again*
>Nice ! I Got Magic Burst! I am so skilful!

lol

>happen to be far away from the opponent
>so therefore i deserve to be invincible for 10 seconds

nope

Hero requires the highest IQ to optimize, so Yea Forums hates him.

I usually use True Hadouken when he’s a mid distance away, then Tatsu when he’s close but out of d-tilt and jab distance.

Yea Forums is defending him because they think them winning with rng makes them good

I'll say it again - go to a professional poker tournament and see how many times you win. You should win half the time because it's just luck, right?
sorry faggot, you wouldn't win a single game regardless of what hand you drew. If you lose to a hero player it's because he's better than you, you can't hide behind muh RNG just because you're shitty and can't handle the playstyle of the character.
objectively this

Hero makes tourneyfags mad, thus Yea Forums likes him.
Hero can split the entire community if he's banned, thus Yea Forums anticipates his future.

If there was an instant win card in Poker that comparison would make sense.

Getting a good Hocus Pocus is like getting a straight flush though

Properly utilizing RNG in a dynamic continuous system like smash requires high IQ. The truth is, the winner in hero fights is the guy with the higher IQ, NOT the retard who spent the most time burning button combos into muscle memory. Thats why smashvirgins hate him, they can't just sit around showerless for 3 days burning combos into their arms.
Go to a poker tournament and try to beat those geniuses. You should win half the time because it's all luck, right?
No, because hero still requires proper set up. The instant win hand in poker is the royal flush (or even just a 4 of a kind or straight flush) and yet just because you draw that hand doesn't mean you win the whole poker game. Try going to a poker tournament thinking that you can win because you can luckily draw a royal flush lmao.

>combos isn't skill
>now getting the right spell through RNG? THAT'S skill

lmao i'm sorry you cant even do combos in the game with incredibly lenient execution.

you can't compare this to poker though, it's completely different.
Hero is at least a Mid Tier character without Down B and still requieres skills like other character just as playing the Neutral Game, using the bread and butter combo everyone has, etc.
However, his Down-B absolutely blows everyone out of the water, he's ALL IN ONE.

In Poker you have the basics and then the luck however, Hero's RNG isn't that bad compared to poker and that's a bad thing.
If the moves were completely RNG and at least half ot them were both jack shit i would have agree with you but they aren't.
Only 3 or 4 Skills out of 20 are literally worthless in a match, the other ones range from very good to absolute bullshit

Ok, enough talk about MB and the like. Let's talk about the REAL big problem spell in Hero's kit. Kaboom.

This thing costs 35 MP, deals 35% damage, has massive knockback, comes up at least half the time in his list. Travels at a decent pace, goes half of the stage length, has a suck box bigger then fucking K.rool's Blunderbuss and doesn't get canceled by some projectiles or attacks, it just goes into it's explosions phase, so if you are close enough to it, you'll still get hit by the most damaging portion. This is probably one of Hero's best edge guard options and is much safer then MB, less costly and even more unexpected.

If anything need to be nerfed, it's this.

The only thing broken about hero is his side b. They need to reduce it's knockback.

shine is arguably the most broken move in melee, user

I'll say it again, try to win a poker tournament. You should win half the time, right?
wrong, because there are a shitload of times in professional poker where the winner of the hand has the worst hand on the table. Using proper RNG in hero's moveset is more skill and requires more thinking than any other smash character.

All hero's projectiles are good, not only Kaboom, his neutral B does 37% so it doesn't need the RNG factor and it arguably comes as fast as Kaboom counting the frames you take in the menu.

Kaboom Bang, Sizz and Sizzle come at frame 6 , travel fast and do good damage.

Magic Burst is the most bullshit spell of all, by a longshot.

Except Hero is absolute dogshit in the air. He's good on the ground but he gets bodied when he leaves it.

Yes, that's what i meant RNG for Hero isn't that bad considering the majority of the moves he has are good.
>Hero's requiere more skills and thinking than any other smash character
Well, i kinda agree with you and at the same time i do not. I think the biggest difference between a good hero and a bad hero is using the correct spell on the correct situation, but that takes thinking time and why bother when you can think fast and use whatever is at your hand, is not like the moves are bad.

Except he's not because he's a sword character, half the roster wishes they had his moveset in the air He also has one of the best airdodges in the game.

It's probably just a case of selective memory. You tend to focus more on the times RNG worked for you than when it didn't. No one cares when their smash didn't crit 7 out of the 8 times they used it but does when it crits that one time. Same thing for the spells, you don't remember when you didn't get what you want when you open it, only the times when it did.

This is what I don't get, Sakurai supposedly cares more about the casual side of the game but Ridley isn't even fun to play in a casual setting, you die in like 5 seconds in ffa's

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No, i mean, i've been researching and even ask some other friends if they are getting the same result.
Like i said it could be Godlike RNG but who knows, time will tell.

And the same thing applies. Your friends aren't keeping track of every single move, they just remember the most memorable parts aka when RNG worked in their favor.

The FACT remains that hero is a diverse character that requires thinking in the moment and intelligently utilizing RNG and map control while being immune from strategies that are just 'learning a matchup' i.e. sitting around for 3 days autisically button comboing without taking a shower. this is why smashfags hate him, you have to fight him in the moment and can't just develop a strategy for him with your main that you can consistintly fall back on.
That doesn't mean he's unbeatable, it means that in a skilled hero match, the winner is the one with the higher IQ, NOT the one with the most muscle memory. IF a hero main consistently beats you, it's because he's better than you and smarter than you. If you consistently beat a hero main, it's because you're better and smarter than him. It's like a game of poker mixed with chess

>Except he's not because he's a sword character, half the roster wishes they had his moveset in the air He also has one of the best airdodges in the game.
His aerials are slow as fuck, Ganondorf has faster aerials. Not to mention he has horrible air speed.

Kek hero players might be the most pretentious of all character mains now

>intelligently utilizing RNG
anyway here's your reply

lmao if hero players were good they'd win without the help of rng

yeah I would agree if I also sucked at smash, git gud you retard

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>Chess champions aren't intelligent because they intelligently utilize randomness in their game
sorry you only have a 95iq, user
if you were good or smart you'd know how to counter hero without having to sit around for a week memorizing button counters

*poker champions

They're a retard filter for the opponent.you play against him like he's always going to crit. Just like you assume Luigi is always going to misfire. Hero has smashes nearly as laggy as Ike and his crits only hit as hard.

?????

Skill doesn't matter in casual ffa's with items on smoothbrain

I bet the retards who dislike Hero are the type of morons who think the better player in Mario Party doesn't win every time.

Well to be fair, there's different forms of dislike
-For Lack of skill
-For Randomness
-For having too many options

I agree that however thinks hero doesnt requiere skill is a retard.

Thats fair and balanced, just like hero

He's pretty cheesy. Can cheese a lot of wins. Hitting the right spells fast enough in a competitive scene will be hard as fuck but just playing co op online with my buddy, he's a charactet that lends himself a lot to dunking on shitters and also pulling wins out of his ass

i just bought him, because i liked DQ9. And the RNG is kinda fun. Its sometimes a bit of a pain in the ass in a 4 player match. But its fair for me

I think joker is better balanced than Hero.
We'll just wait and see, too bad EVO won't use 4.0 so no hero, we'll have to wait until Smash Con.

I love how ridiculous hero is.
It's just refreshing to see something unique when 90% of 1v1 matches are just people running up, shielding, then spamming aerial attacks or flowcharting.

How the fuck do you deal with ness and lucas players? If they aren't spamming their pk fire they are spamming fair all day which has ridiculous reach + frame data and "combos" into itself

Can you parry Wack?
I've been able to parry boom, kaboom, both sizzle moves, flame sword and the charged side-b attack.

You slow the match down and approach them slowly.
Wait for them to start throwing out random f-smashes and down smashes, then punish.

It's a projectile so yes. Not sure about Thwack though.

>wojak posting

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Thwack can be deflected, yes, there's videos of it killing Hero on twitter.

Do you let yourself get hit by G&W throwing out random hammers even though there's only a 1/8 chance of it getting a 9?
No, you stupid nigger. So why are you letting yourself get hit by random Hero fSmashes when he could crit?

I regret buying him because he just feels like a shittier Link.

>MUH POKER MUH POKER
Literally comparing a fucking card game with a videogame, imagine being this retarded.
What are you gonna do next, complain because there are no jollies in Quake 3 Arena or compare Halo 3 to a roulette?

Fucking retards.

zss confirmed gamer
seriously why would you commit to that when you can also see what spells are available?

>1/8 chance
>with the numbers 1-9
bro...

>Character is out for less than half a week
>HE'S MID-HIGH TIER

Just play the fucking game you dumb nigger

>random crits
>randomly crit and get countered
>instant death

this is the only major weakness I've seen with him

Game&Watch can't get the same number twice in a row, so it's a 1/8 chance instead of 1/9.

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Wow I never knew that, interesting.

Hero is a handsome lad.

They may not know what they mean and do you look at what you or your opponent is doing or do you look at the bottom of the screen and read some text?