Is it just me, or do jrpgs suffer from an extreme lack of imagination?
For example, if you look at a western rpg like Baldur's Gate you can come up with rather amusing combat strategies like:
>cast a spell that creates a sticky web on the ground, any one walking over that area will get stuck in the web and unable to move >cast another spell to polymorph into a spider, which is naturally immune to being webbed >walk into the webbed area and finish of the enemies, who are stuck and unable to put up much of a fight
I can't think of a single jrpg that allows this sort of approach to gameplay. In jrpgs gameplay seems to primarily revolve around abstract systems, usually some form of rock paper scissors centered on elemental damage. Personally I find this design philosophy anywhere near as entertaining or tactically engaging, but maybe I'm in the minority on that.
jrpg: all characters have different abilities wrpg: wizard can do 100 different things non-wizard can do nothing
Juan Richardson
Funny you use IX as your example because from X on, the summons were controllable (ignoring XV, of course). An FFX summons has more depth than any of the mindless NPC shits you can summon in WRPGs.
Zachary Wood
jrpg: memorable characters wrpg: faggot obsessed with a ferret
Ethan Williams
>An FFX summons has more depth than any of the mindless NPC shits you can summon in WRPGs.
How so? Summons in Baldur's Gate serve far more tactical purposes than in FFX.
FFX summons can't even move around. You can't even have multiple summons at the same time. Heck, you can't even have the summoned creature and the party active at the same time: tthe party is literally teleported away when you summon a creature. What a joke.
Evan Ward
>44 hours of generic cliche talking about nothing Persona was a mistake.
Josiah Williams
im okay with the gameplay differences. my problem with jrps are that the characters feel like they were written for 12 year olds in mind, theyre all as basic as possible
Nathaniel Brown
>Is it just me, or do jrpgs suffer from an extreme lack of imagination? Uhmm.... no, sweaty
>half the people dropped it after the first 22 hours (probably less) lmao
Liam Perry
Nobody does anything like that in BG either way because even if you do waste time using Web instead of Fireball AND waste a slot on poly(For a fucking sword spider form of all things which has naturally fuck all for hit rolls) chances are you won't kill anything but a bunch low level mooks or some mages, which you could simply wipe with a fireball or just autobattle without even needing to waste a slot on Web in the first place. And this is without considering that the spider form in BG is also buffed coming from TT rules.
It's a completely retarded scenario, even if you consider extreme buffing beforehand in the case of mages or a Druid's spider form, you're better off doing anything else but this shit, which is also nothing more than a slightly flavour of martial autobattle at the end of the day, nothing different from casting grease and letting your martials cleave through.
Then again, it's WRPG-kun we're talking about so you shouldn't expect much in the first place, somebody who thinks BG has any sort of depth or tactical finesse is far to the deep end of terminal retardation.
>It's a completely retarded scenario This isn't a jrpg, status effects in Baldur's Gate are far superior than damaging spells, and they scale better as you level up too. Fireball doesn't guarantee enemies will die, whereas anyone stuck in a Web is almost assuredly defeated.
Noah Walker
>Asides from multiple summons, XII lets you do all that. FXII still makes the party disappear (except for the summoner), so no. And what do you mean "aside from multiple summons" as if that's just some minor quirk.
Jackson Rivera
>Play western RPG >prepare your spells, use your RTWP pause combat to ensure you can take as much time as you want and when you die? Well just saves scum and try again
This post has been brought up over and over again, so I'll bring up the same point.
>In an interview with Sid Meier of all people, he pointed out that Japanese game developers took the decisions/mechanics implemented by Western developers in the late 1980s/90s. What they misunderstood en masse, however, was that those mechanics/game choices were made to a large extent due to technical limitations, NOT as a deliberate choice. Due to this misunderstanding, they have stuck to those old mechanics, and brought about the stagnation of Japanese games, especially RPGs.
Isaac Kelly
Choosing a game where you are literally immortal is not a good choice.
Isaiah Diaz
>Been a while since I've given WRPGs a chance, maybe the westies have finally learned how to make a game >Fire up Elex at Yea Forumss suggestion >Literally the worst combat I've ever experienced a game.
Nope, westies still dont know what a game looks like
Charles White
Western RPG makers are behind every single system, mechanic, sub-genre and plot ever conceived. Japanese developers are very poor imitators who can barely budge from the early 1990s.
Cameron Mitchell
You're immortal in every game what are you talking about?
Jayden Rodriguez
>This isn't a jrpg, status effects in Baldur's Gate are far superior than damaging spells Not really, especially not in BG, which is as braindead as they come. >Fireball doesn't guarantee enemies will die Fireball in BG is disgustingly overpowered, you can literally kill 99% of enemies in BG including Sarevok by doing nothing but spamming Fireball, the generous amounts of wands also doesn't help. >whereas anyone stuck in a Web is almost assuredly defeated. Yeah, provided they fail the reflex roll, and something that fails the reflex roll to fucking Web, a level 2 spell, is a particularly pitiful enemy, though I give you that anything that isn't a Dragon is not even worth mentioning in those games.
John Perry
One genre still exists, the other genre had all of its properties either die or turn into action games with damage and weight numbers on the equipment.
Zachary Sanders
Are you using the Joseph Anderson Retarded Argument "loading is an immortality mechanic, not a fail state"?
Carson Wright
>Nope, westies still dont know what a game looks like
saying its retarded doesn't make it wrong, quicksaving in wrpgs is a way more effective immortality than dying in dark souls which respawns every enemy
John Sullivan
Have found better gameplay in RPGmaker hentai games than Persona or Final Fantasy.
Adam Stewart
>Yeah, provided they fail the reflex roll
>reflex roll >in AD&D DId you even play Baldur's GAte.
Oh wait, you clearly didn't considering:
>Fireball in BG is disgustingly overpowered, you can literally kill 99% of enemies in BG including Sarevok by doing nothing but spamming Fireball
The irony of this is funny, since Souls games are WRPGs. >you create your own character and assign their stats (typical of wrpgs, but something almost non-existent in jrpgs, where you typically play as a pre-defined character) >uses a stamina system (a common feature in wrpgs since the 80's, even elder scrolls had it decades before dark souls, but far less common in jrpgs) >uses a vancian system for spellcasting derived from western tabletop rpgs such as d&d >uses a classless system (common in wrpgs like fallout and elder scrolls, but almost non-existent in jrpgs) >story is primarily told through gameplay, like many other wrpgs and in sharp contrast to jrpgs which typically feature hours of non-interactive cutscenes) >an emphasis on non-linear exploration (again, common in wrpgs, almost non-existent in jrpgs) >enemies are pulled straight from western rpgs (e.g. mindflayers, mimics, myconids, etc.) >armor changes your appearance (again, common in wrpgs, almost non-existent in jrpgs) >you can kill npcs (again, common in wrpgs, non-existent in jrpgs) >combat has more in common with old wrpgs like severance: blade of darkness than it does with anything else in the jrpg genre >many other gameplay mechanics and features it shares with wrpgs
Christian Lewis
*does stealth better than any w*stern game*
MGS "stealth": >enemy bodies instantly disappear >sound plays no role outside of the odd gimmick like stepping on puddles >stealth is based around simple line of sight and hiding behind cover >a radar tells you where enemies are and even shows you the size of their vision cones, so you don't even have to pay attention to your surroundings >the game constantly forces you into unavoidable combat setpieces and cutscenes that take away your control and render a stealth approach impossible
Meanwhile, in Jagged Alliance 2, a 90's wrpg where stealth is merely a minor feature: >enemy bodies don't disappear >sound plays an integral role, everything you do produces noise. There are four different movement modes (running, walking, crouching, or going prone) that asks you to make a trade-off between how much sound you make, how fast you move and how much stamina and action points it takes. You can also climb on rooftops. >besides line of sight and sound, stealth also takes into account the level of illumination. Since the game is open world, not only can you choose when and where to tackle missions, during day or night, with obvious consequences (nighttime makes it harder for the enemy to see you, but also makes it harder for you to see them), but enemies will also adjust their tactics and AI behaviour, such as throwing out flares during the night to light up the surroundings. >varied and creative stealth mechanics, such as the ability to use camouflage to blend in with the environment or launching a throwing knife at an unsuspecting enemy's jugular for a silent kill (the game lets you aim at specific body parts) >the game never takes away your control as a player
So, you're complaining that JRPGs don't have some features, then when shown a japanese game with said features you'll say it's a WRPG? If your definition of JRPG is turn-based simon says gameplay why complain about it not having emergent gameplay? That seems to be part of your definition.
Levi Richardson
Valkyria CHronicles is not alternate history. 'Alternate history' has as premise that our history happened. Then at some point, things diverged, that's where the 'alternate' comes in. Or, in the case of Darklands, things were always different, but the world at large is not aware of this, and history occured as we know it (except for secret happenings that we are unaware of).
Valkyria Chronicles does not have that premise at all. It's a setting that superficially resembles WW2, except in that world, WW1 didn't happen, or any of our history. Instead, Valkyria Chronicles has its own history, that involves races like Darcsens and Valkyria.
Similarly, Earthbound is not 'fictional real world', which is characterized as taking place in a fictional version of the real world, i.e. no sci-fi or fantasy. Earthbound is blatantly fantastical.
Earthbound because weird as shit. The gameplay is still autistic JRPG grind trash though, when you think about.
Henry Reed
Metal Gear Solid? I agree, it does blow.
Sebastian Thomas
While I don't like your attitude, there's a grain of truth below your post, which is: JRPGs don't kid themselves with false complexity. JRPGs are very simple games because many times the complexity in WRPGs simply hides "choose the optimum strategy".
Ideally if you have 100 spells, you want every single spell to be useful, and by useful I mean "actually have a damn reason to use the spell". In many JRPGs there are plenty of spells you never use because they are filler. In western RPGs like Baldur's Gate, however, this problem is multiplied by five. >you're better off doing anything else but this shit For instance, I had a particularly tough time in a fight in Baldur's Gate, right at the end of the big building were Sarevok was supposed to be. I was getting my ass kicked until I decided to Haste all my characters, and then the fight was trivially easy. There were dozens upon dozens of spells in my arsenal, but just one was enough to kick everyone's butt.
Asher Powell
Yes, exactly. Instead of copying WRPGs from the early 90s, Dark Souls Chink copied WRPGs from the early 21st century,
Tyler Jones
>its a retard who doesnt understand that the word japanese literally means japanese dark souls has good gameplay which doesnt exist in wrpgs, and is closer to a metroidvania than any wrpg. also no, walls of texts and skillchecks do not count as telling a story through gameplay which is less effective than loading a game mid combat, which most wrpgs allow you to do
Jace Hill
99% of spells in ANY JPRG is "make X number bigger/smaller", or "deal X damage".
Gavin Anderson
>how is ff7 not cyberpunk FF7 only uses cyberpunk as superficial window dressing (the same is true of FF6 and steampunk).
Look at something like Deus Ex, which, like FF7, is a cyberpunk RPG. In that game, the story is all about how technological advances can exacerbate the dangers of economical and political centralization. One of the ways the protagonist, who himself is cybernetically augmented, can oppose these dangers is by merging with an AI to form a new enlightened form of government.
That's an actual meaningful use of cyberpunk themes. By contrast, FF7 is about an ancient civilization, the Cetra, with incredible magical powers, that hid away the Black Materia, which Sephiroth now is after so that he can use it to cast the Meteor spell to strike at the heart of the world so that he can open up the LifeStream and place himself at the center of it to become a god. Those are typical high fantasy themes. FF7 does not explore cyberpunk themes in any meaningful way.
This is a recurring issue with jrpgs. Even when they take place in futuristic settings, where the technology and level of civilization is far more advanced than our own, the world still functions like a pre-industrial society, with small settlements separated by vast, uncharted expanses of wilderness filled with wild beasts and roving bandits, and characters still using medieval weaponry. What is the point of going with a futuristic setting if it's functionally and thematically identical to a medieval fantasy world?
At least you did check a wiki this time, you're making progress. Not enough to stop pretending that only problem in Sarevok's fight aren't the ads, which get wiped by Fireball just fine, and once Sarevok is alone he can't do shit, you can find tons of videos for that, just to give you one of the more recent ones: youtube.com/watch?v=IyBpiC-K5Ys So yeah, Sarevok himself may be immune to Fireball, but he still crumbles to a party of martial, even without Haste.
Eli Rogers
Sid Meier you say? Might as well be the word of god when it comes to game design. I believe we can safely say /thread now.
Aiden Bennett
and why is persona 5 not a jrpg? then replace earthbound with another persona game, and valkyria chronicles with way of the samurai
JRPGS not named Persona 3+: >deep leveling and growth system >Defined classes with pros and cons >Strategic gameplay >Interesting and unforgettable dungeons >Unique storylines >Beautiful and colorful art style >Well rounded and developed characters WRPGs: >Samey growth system with shit balance >Every class can do the same thing >Janky and easily abusable gameplay >Dungeons are just dark caves >Uninteresting, filler storylines >Same shitty realistic uninspired dull 3D art "style" >No characters whatsoever I don't need to cope or seethe or dilate, but I would like to have sex. If you disagree, you haven't played enough JRPGs, and/or you play too many WRPGs.
Charles Diaz
Thief, you fucking uncultured mongoloid.
Adam Moore
>A game with no platforming or movement augmentations >Anything semblance to Meteoidvanias
Oliver Rogers
>You have NO involvement, as a player, in the plot. You cannot, literally, make even A SINGLE STORY CHOICE. > The game is 100% linear. Every...single..story...beat. >No dialogue system. No, listening to OTHERS talk is not dialogue. >You have no impact whatsoever on the plot, the characters, where the story is going...none. You're a walking manequinn in a movie.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Bentley Ortiz
>99% of spells in ANY JPRG is "make X number bigger/smaller", or "deal X damage". Outside of being completely wrong, WRPGs are the same, except with five times the filler.
Look at games like Neverwinter Nights 2, 90% of your TOTAL spellkit, that is both arcane and divine magic, is completely fucking useless at any point of the game, and not useless because there's something that outclasses your spell, most spells are fucking useless at any point in the game.
Christian Thomas
JPGS aren't really "RPGS" I thought this was common knowledge
Adam Edwards
The best part of this image is not how it shows the original was cherrypicked, but how it ignores the underlying issue: whereas all games on the left merge setting with gameplay, no such thing happens with the games on the right.
Shin Megami Tensei, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VII, etc., the setting is pretty much secondary. Final Fantasy VI? The only steampunkish thing about the game is that Edgar uses tools. Final Fantasy VII, cyberpunk? There's nothing to it. Shin Megami Tensei? Again, there's nothing post-apocalyptic about the gameplay.
But Final Fantasy? Sure, it feels very much like stereotypical D&D fantasy with swords and magic.
On the other hand, every game on the left ties the setting into the gameplay. For instance, the post-apocalyptic RPG emphasizes resource management as money isn't readily available.
Alexander Cox
Is that meant to be Garnet?
Austin Torres
>and why is persona 5 not a jrpg? It has no role-playing.
Idk, WRPGs are boring as fuck, and thats enough for me not to play them.
Eli Barnes
I've always hated the "JRPG summoner" as well.
I want to be a summoner so I can play pokemon, not be a wizard that every spell takes 3 minutes of cutscene
Henry Thompson
FFVII cyberpunk? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Andrew Campbell
You play the role of Joker.
Charles Sanchez
There isn't a single WRPG with fun or well designed combat.
Matthew Long
Since you took Forgotten Realms games as an example, let's go mongoloid:
>ALL polymorph other spells, >ALL polymorph self spells, >ALL trap spells >ALL charm spells (these also change dialogue with many, many characters), >ALL paralysis spells (they actually STOP the enemies from moving, instead of just giving them X status, like all JRPGs), >ALL summoning spells, >time manipulation spells, >spells like Spell Penetration, specifically used for mage duels (completely absent in JRPGs).
Your argument is so weak, I almost pity you.
Carter Phillips
What said. >Outside of being completely wrong, WRPGs are the same, except with five times the filler. Is there anything genuinely wrong with the Final Fantasy progression of Blizzard-Blizzara-Blizzaga? It's pretty much what Baldur's Gate does, except with more complicated names (false complexity) and more complicated formulas (again, false complexity) which hide the fact that it still is very much "this fire spell > that fire spell", and the only reason said shittier fire spells see ANY USE AT ALL is because of the Vancian magic system... which was seen in Final Fantasy 1, a game that still follows the same magic progression as later Final Fantasy games.
I personally think the Vancian magic system is shit and only serves to make said weaker spells more useful, which I feel is dumb.
Chase James
>TWEWY >not merging the gameplay with its setting Nigga, what.
Luis Roberts
>Outside of being completely wrong, WRPGs are the same, except with five times the filler. How so? In a classic WRPG like Baldur's Gate, 95% of the spells don't even deal damage. Instead, they have some non-direct effect like turning you invisible, creating illusions, summoning creatures or creating long-lasting environmental hazards (Stinking Cloud, Grease, etc.) And what few damaging spells there are, generally aren't particularly effective.
In jrpgs on the other hand, most spells are either elementally themed damage spells (Fire1/Fire2/Fire3/Fire4, Ice1/Ice2/Ice3/Ice4, Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4) or buffs/debuffs (giving yourself +20% attack power or lowering the enemy's attack power by 20%). There are status effects, but they are generally not effective as damaging spells and bosses are usually outright immune. And the aforementioned wrpg spells like summoning creatures or creating environmental hazards tend to be non-existent in jrpgs.
I would assume this difference boils down to wrpgs taking influence from tabletop games whereas jrpgs don't, but still, I don't understand why, with so many experimental jrpgs, they tend to adhere to such a basic template when it comes to magic.
I don't know why you'd be in denial about this when looking at a wiki is enough to prove you wrong.
I concede my ignorance about said game, user. The whole "pin system" is an example of what I mean by merging setting with gameplay.
Kayden Jenkins
Meanwhile westerners will always design trash combat systems till the end of time.
Carter Thompson
Holy shit you have just erased all credibility you could have ever hoped to have regarding videogames. You do not belong on a videogame discussion board.
Oliver Clark
FF7 is Dieselpunk my guy
John Cooper
Baby, JRPGS, with no exception, blatantly, and poorly, rip off very old WRPG mechanics from late 80s/early 90s.
Liam Martin
>Nigga, what. TWEWY is a great example of how NOT to tackle an urban fantasy setting. It doesn't even let you explore the intrigue of an urban fantasy. All the combat and supernatural happenings are conveniently confined to an alternate version of the world, The Underground. There's no effort whatsoever made to create a believable urban fantasy setting that reconciles the fantastical with the mundane. It's like the developers wanted to create an urban fantasy setting, but were too lazy to flesh out such a setting and just went with generic anime tropes.
Compare that to something like Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, which utilizes its modern-day setting in every aspect of its gameplay and narrative. For example, since you're a vampire healing is done by feeding on enemies or NPC's or by consuming blood bags, which you can get by having an employee at the local hospital smuggle them out for you. The weapons you use aren't medieval, but modern ones like firearms and improvised tools like tire irons and baseball bats, and the people who sell them to you are criminal fencers. Instead of generic elemental spells, you hack computers and use vampiric disciplines such as mental domination or a mist form which renders you invisible. The game takes place in urban locales, not some abstract dimension, and NPC's will panic and alert the cops if you reveal your vampiric nature in public, and being careless may attract the attention of vampire hunters That's how you translate urban fantasy to a video game.
And that is why JRPGs will always be our most hated genre. They are like retarded babies, living with no potential until they die. Truly a sad existence. Welp, at least our WRPGs have actual wit and grace.
Oh honey, do better...
Easton White
From Software designs better games than any western studio out there
Benjamin Nguyen
>self-insert >good
Jeremiah Perry
Exactly. I'm sure said spells are great when they are put to good use, which reminds me of >Pikachu, AIM FOR THE HORN which is pretty neat in the anime but it literally 1. Doesn't work in the games because there's no called attacks. 2. It's ineffective against ground type Pokémon. Which is pretty much what happens in a lot of western RPGs: we can think of very cool combinations, but reality is most of the time they are not needed.
Michael Taylor
See No. Exceptions. Do better.
Sorry to hear that sweetie. Maybe you'll realize the error of your ways soon...
Michael Edwards
Not, mongoloid, show the screens where EACH OF THESE ANSWERS HAVE A DIFFERENT REACTION FROM THE NPC. And then let's compare them to dialogue options in JRPGs, and laugh.
Ethan Evans
you forgot one important detail though WRPGs are boring as fuck and have 99% spell filler
Lucas Nguyen
WRPGs are for neckbeards who couldn't be arsed reading a book so they play some shitty D&D fanfiction with retard tier combat that consists of clicking repeatedly.
David Bennett
Aw sweetiekins, you don't need to come up with excuses for your baby JRPG genre. It will alays be our most hated.
Isaiah Rodriguez
Show me a western game with a combat system as good as Nioh
Jaxon Lopez
i'm not taking any sides, it's just that the way people discuss shits in this board is so desingenuous, like this faggot for example
Parker Martin
>Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines i fell for the meme and bought this game, its the most clunky shit i've every played and everything looks abhorrently ugly, even the first deus ex plays a thousand times better than that shit
David Hall
Meanwhile, "roleplaying" on JRPGs >"Hey you! Have you ever conceived a Hollowborn child? Hmmm? No, you don't look the type, carry on." *try to attack NPC* >"Hey you! Have you ever conceived a Hollowborn child? Hmmm? No, you don't look the type, carry on."
Evan Cox
This. JRPGs are not role playing games. They aren't even games! They.re just glorified menu simulators for incel neckbeards.
Austin Roberts
>I haven’t even play the game So, we’re just gonna ignore the trend system? Or the fact that shopkeepers will fall in love with you the more you buy from their shops? Or how pins replace your standard magic spells for something in the modern age? Or how the characters don’t use traditional weaponry but instead shit like teddy bears, skateboards, and goddamn cell phones? Or shit like Reaper Creeper? Or how clothes replace your standard armor or equipment? Shit, did you even look up the game at all?
Brayden Campbell
...
Luis Torres
If we're including roguelike/roguelites, then it's not really fair.
Elona alone has more depth than literally every single WRPG (and JRPG) ever made.
Adrian Brooks
Ignore that faggot. As I've stated previously, each of those answers elicits a different response from Urgeat. Additionally, these aren't even all the options available.
Nathaniel Nguyen
>Radiant Historia >Science Fantasy Que?
Easton Gonzalez
you are a faggot
Wyatt Long
You assume Nioh has a good combat system. I can't help you. I'm sorry.
Colton Price
>They.re just glorified menu simulators for incel neckbeards so civ and europa are also glorified menus?
And what's wrong with that, he's enjoying himself and found what he loves doing.
Brandon Flores
>WRPG chads are a diverse community of intelligent, sharp-witted folk who understand that games can be more than the barebones Nintendo kiddie stuff and can ascend into a true artform all on its own >JRPG weebs are toxic incels who cry every time their favorite cardboard cutout waifu gets rightfully censored Why do we have to be so based, westernbros?
Awwww baby, it's gonna be okay, don't cry.
Also trans rights.
Jackson Clark
>this enemy seems to be weak against fire so I should attack with my knight >I'll use the mage to protect my healer, giving it +5 resistance to ice What the fuck does this even mean?
Gabriel Brown
You made my day. Using elemental resistances, literally the only paltry combat mechanic that JRPGs can scrounge up. You reek of desperation.
And accusing WRPGs of relying on waifus... I pity you.
Dominic Clark
It has better combat than any WRPG I've played, yeah.
If you disagree, you are being disingenuous.
Evan Green
games aren't art read a book sweaty
Christian Robinson
Bold of you to assume that WRPGfag actually plays games.
Michael Brown
>Que?
It's science fantasy, yes. In Radiant Historia you have shit like this:
>Thaumatech is the name of the technology used to manipulate Mana, and allows humans to gain the power to perform otherwise impossible things. While it is similar to the power of Flux, it was thought as a more mechanical system, which means even people with no special knowledge or power can use it. In addition to weapons such as Thaumachines and Gauntlets, Thaumatech for civilian uses such as lifts and air conditioning has also been developed
Try to read that with a straight face and make sense of it. It's literally saying 'there is magic, but you don't have to be skilled in magic to use it, so anyone can enjoy its benefits'. Its literally the most laziest kind of world building to handhave having to explain modern technological conveniences like lifts and air conditioning. That's the problem with this kind of science fantasy setting.
>In a classic WRPG like Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate isn't a classic WRPG. >95% of the spells don't even deal damage That's because D&D designs mages around shutdowns and massive bursts of damage, most spells are also effectively direct upgrades, you have five different invisibility spells for instance, only the fifth tier is the best because it usually grants you all the effect of the previous fives plus permanent invisibility, Mage Armor gets Improved Mage Armor which is the same exact spell with bigger numbers. Stinking Cloud, Grease and Web are functionally the exact same exact shutdown spell with slightly different gimmicks that make little to no differences but I'm sure you do cream yourself when you remember Stinking Cloud is a bad choice for things that don't breathe. Even by considering summons, you have Summon Creature 1 to 9, then depending on the D&D edition you have other flavours of summons like Gate/Epic Gate which all do the same exact thing but with growing numbers, and this is without consider how well they work in the games they're implemented in, which most of the times they don't, nobody in their right mind wastes slots on any Summon Creature spells below 7 for instance, in games like NWN2 supposedly big dick spells like Gate or Meteor Sward are completely fucking useless.
Moreover, videogame adaptations of most tabletop spells are always inevitably butchered, see things like Mordenkainen's sword or Wish, for the longest time they also pretended Detect spells were worth anything in a videogame environment, which is beyond laughable. >I don't understand why, with so many experimental jrpgs, they tend to adhere to such a basic template when it comes to magic. Because the best you can do is reading Wikis and not actually playing videogames, or pretending all JRPGs boil down to FF, DQ or Persona, while also conveniently pretending WRPGs are somehow mechanically complex.
You're a compulsive liar, not only to others, but to yourself.
>Instead, they have some non-direct effect like turning you invisible, creating illusions, summoning creatures or creating long-lasting environmental hazards (Stinking Cloud, Grease, etc.) And what few damaging spells there are, generally aren't particularly effective. All of these are basic as fuck buffs and debuffs and they all directly relate to combat.
Turn invisible? Evade chance %+ Creating Illusions? Enemy miss 100% Summon Creatures? Has entire genres around that system in JRPG Long Lasting Environment Hazards? A fancy name for debuffs. Oh no, he conjured up a sand storm, I wonder what effects it will have on the enemy >enemy misses every second attack Woooo, that's so different and more creative than just turning myself invisible. I guess.
>summon FF monster >summoner disappears >monster is worse than the summoner in every way that's even worse than summons being a cutscene that deals damage
Caleb Nelson
Western RPG's haven't existed for like 2 decades. I don't see the argument.
Nathaniel Parker
>something as braindead simple as targeting elemental weaknesses is considered a mark of intelligence and tactically nuanced gameplay
The whole Press Turn/One More Turn system in SMT in mindboggingly stupid. Think about it, you're already being rewarded for targeting the enemy's weakness by making them take more damage, and increasing the chance of landing the relevant status ailment (like freezing an enemy that's weak to ice). The only thing the Press Turn/One More Turn system does is artificially elevate one strategy above all others, by rewarding you even further with free turns/free attacks, making all other strategies inferior by default, even before you add Baton Pass to the formula. It's a complete no-brainer to exploit the enemy's weakness, with no downsides or risks, so why wouldn't you? The result is that it ends up greatly reducing combat depth, and it effectively means the outcome of most battles is decided as soon as they begin. I don't know what it says about the people at Atlus that they thought anyone needed such strong incentive to do something as incredibly obvious and straightforward as 'hit the glaring weak spot of the bad guys'. Then they went and added even more broken mechanic on top of it, like Baton Pass, that let you trivialize the game even further.
The combat in baldur's gate is prebuff and autoattack everything to death lmao.
Eli Clark
Radiant Shitstoria BTFO. There has not been a single good JRPG and this has been especially proven ITT. WRPGchads win yet another debate.
Owen Lee
I mean I assumed his knight is using a fire elemental sword, but that info is not present on the image which makes me wonder what the hell does that mean.
William Sanders
Enemies have press turn too you mentally challenged fuck.
Gabriel Watson
>run up and down stairs for 30 minutes >walk up a hill and spam the jump button for 30 minutes amazing gameplay
Easton Wright
>WRPGchad arguments >JRPGcuck arguments How did WRPGchads get so based Yea Forumsros
Elijah Barnes
its using persona 4 for for his arguement, so its just a bait image to piss off wrpgfag
Tyler Lee
>their posts are long so it means there must be at least one argument in them!
Parker Ward
JRPGtoids are too busy actually playing games to indulge a shitposter for an extended period of time
Lucas Howard
Brevity is the soul of wit, anglo.
Leo Watson
>Is it just me Is it just me or did fucking everyone start saying this after pewdiepie memed it
David Nguyen
Its a common phrase user.
John White
>Is it just me, or do jrpgs suffer from an extreme lack of imagination? >Why aren't they all ripping off LotR, Star Wars or Mad Max like WRPG do, the bastion of imagination?
Jaxon Wood
How come westcucks never talk about games released after 2005?
Andrew Wood
JRPG: Intresting, fresh, unique, played by people who actually want to have fun
WRPG: Boring, Novel-tier legntgh dialogue, tedius exploration, played by people who think they're smart but in reality they're dumb as fuck for forcing themselves to play a archaic, shitty genre that they themselves don't even like
Asher Sullivan
>All of these are basic as fuck buffs and debuffs and they all directly relate to combat.
>Turn invisible? Evade chance %+ Are you retarded? Turning invisible doesn't increase your evade chance, it makes you invisible, i.e. enemies can't see you (unless they have true sight). This allows invisibility to be used for a variety of things. You can turn your party invisible and travel through areas without alerting enemies (remember, in wrpgs enemies are fully present outside of combat, a basic feature jrpgs still haven't implemented to this day). You can use invisibility to set up a surprise attack. Etcetera.
>Summon Creatures? Has entire genres around that system in JRPG Such as? I can't think of a single jrpg with a fleshed out summon system, much less entire genres.
>Long Lasting Environment Hazards? A fancy name for debuffs. Not the same thing. Environmental hazards actually alter the environment and change the battlefield. Instead of slapping a slow debuff on an enemy, you could create an oil field on the ground This makes anyone who steps on it slip and slide and hinders movement. This applies both to enemies as well as your own characters, making it a two-edged blade.
Have you ever even played a non-Japanese rpg in your life?
Westernchads need to cope, seethe, have sex, but not dilate. They also need to play less WRPGs and play more JRPGs. Not Persona 3 4 or 5 though. Here are ten JRPGs (or series) better than every single WRPG: Valkyrie Profile TWEWY Vagrant Story Dark Souls Kingdom Hearts MegaTen (NOT Persona 3-5) Pre-13 FF Knights in the Nightmare (and other Dept Heaven games) Disgaea Ys
Grayson Morris
>So, we’re just gonna ignore the trend system? Or the fact that shopkeepers will fall in love with you the more you buy from their shops? Or how pins replace your standard magic spells for something in the modern age? Or how the characters don’t use traditional weaponry but instead shit like teddy bears, skateboards, and goddamn cell phones? Or shit like Reaper Creeper? Or how clothes replace your standard armor or equipment? Shit, did you even look up the game at all?
But How does any of that stuff make sense within the setting? How do pins granting abilities fit in with TWEWY's specific urban fantasy setting and themes? It doesn't, the game just throws random shit in there becausee the devs had no idea how to create a coherent setting.
Are you seriously so easily impressed that a game having cell phones and teddy bears is a triumph of world building?
>steal literally materializes items out of nothingness, only in combat >summon magic functions just standard fireball but looks different
Benjamin Cruz
VC1 had some kind of previous world war, I remember there was an older member of the squad who was supposed to be a veteran of it but I forget the details
Josiah Davis
What do WRPG fans think of Star Control 2 and Crusader: No Remorse?
Dominic Kelly
Actually laughing at how hard you're trying to hate something for entirely trivial reasons.
Sebastian James
Yeah, and luckily Baldur's Gate III is coming out soon to show Japan how a real RPG is done! The Modern West is so good at RPGs!
Chase Morgan
>This allows invisibility to be used for a variety of things Lolno, you use invisibility to avoid aggro or emergency heal at best if you're a wizard, otherwise you just sneak instead of wasting cantrips to cast Invisibility on your whole party like a complete idiot. >in wrpgs enemies are fully present outside of combat, a basic feature jrpgs still haven't implemented to this day Except even something as basic as Earthbound on the SNES did, let alone other series like SaGa, which also handle enemy sense mechanics AND aggro patterns better than your generic proximity based shit in WRPGs, where a Vampire Champion behaves in the same exact way as a Kobold or a lizardman. >I can't think of a single jrpg with a fleshed out summon system That would require you to play videogames, so of course you can't, nevermind the fact that you punctually bitch about any summon system that isn't based on the IE design, so it's a pointless argument, you're just here to forget how miserable your life is anyway. >Environmental hazards actually alter the environment and change the battlefield Don't kid yourself because you can't fool anyone else who actually plays videogames. Grease is a slow+chance of shutdown debuff, the rare games that do have slightly more exotic stuff like pits in the case of games like Kingmaker essentially turn those into the same exact shutdown, sometimes with added damage per round in case of stuff like Acid/Hungry Pit, it isn't any different from casting any generic shutdown spell like Colour Spray, you just use those according to save throws and if they actually work. >This applies both to enemies as well as your own characters, making it a two-edged blade. Only to drooling retards like you who think it's a good idea to cast Grease and then send their low reflex save units to melee. Seriously, how fucking dumb are you?
Tyler Rodriguez
>Are you retarded? Turning invisible doesn't increase your evade chance, it makes you invisible, Absolute non-dev. Damn, you might be clinically retarded. > (remember, in wrpgs enemies are fully present outside of combat, a basic feature jrpgs still haven't implemented to this day). even basic jrpg like pokemon have items to turn off random encounters. A lot of jrpg don't even have random encounters in the first place, they're just on the worldmap and you can run/sneak by them. But hey, how many WRPG are there where you won't get bothered by assassins/thieves/morons while you need to rest? Oh, fucking none at all? Good to know.
> This allows invisibility to be used for a variety of things Yeah. And it sucks. WRPG: I cast invisible, go to enemy, get my first attack for free. JRPG: just get an ability that always gets me first attack on my equipment or something But you love your little autistic ritual of buffing the fuck out of yourself, putting invisible on etc to bumrush some ogres or whatever, just to rest and do it the fuck again the same way.
>Such as? I can't think of a single jrpg with a fleshed out summon system, much less entire genres. That's because you don't know shit about video games. Uhh~ I can summon a spider with Summon Creatures. Who gives a fuck. SMT lets you fuse and spec your monsters. Jade Cocoon let you literally mix and match monster body parts, and those monsters are your party members. The entire Monster Rancher series shits all over WRPG summoning.
>you could create an oil field on the ground This makes anyone who steps on it slip and slide and hinders movement oh fuck, you mean like a "slippery debuff"? +50% chance of falling prone when you walk on tile 5342434/413423? And it could even affect your party members? That's like, a spell that targets all combat participants or something, never heard of before!
Stop asking retarded questions. I play both WRPG and JRPG but I don't act like one is better than the other.
Brandon Reed
>it doesnt count because i say it doesnt
Christopher Young
This list is mostly shit games, but I like how all of the games here have basically nothing in common with each other when if you've played one WRPG you've played them all.
Angel Parker
>VC1 had some kind of previous world war, I remember there was an older member of the squad who was supposed to be a veteran of it but I forget the details Sure, but the world of Valkyria is still a fantasy world separate from our own, like JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth. This means it falls outside the alternate history genre.
Adam Bell
>Final Fantasy 9 represents all JRPGs to ever exist
Camden Myers
why do you guys even take a side in this? im enjoying rpgs on both sides, i lean a little more western desu but still enjoy ff, botw, and to a degree persona.
why dont you just spam "no fuck you" down everythread if youre picking fights.
Nicholas Rogers
>implying hiding abilities in plain sight for Players to use and buy in the Game doesn’t make sense considering how the Composer outright allows shopping to be a thing, especially when the entire point of the Reaper’s Game is to have the Composed judge humanity and have them learn and grow from the experience. Also, every UG in TWEWY has its own unique set of rules and mechanics. Which you would actually know if you’d play the game.
Aiden Gutierrez
>Shin Megami Tensei >nothing post apocalyptic about the gameplay Confirmed for never having played games like the Digital Devil Saga or Nocturne
James Butler
>relying on old boomer games to make your point
real sad, grow up.
Noah Bailey
>FF feels like stereotypical D&D this is wrong FF, early FF have the same roots as the Dragon Quest series which were inspired by a combination of the Ultima series and the Wizardry series. D&D had little influence on the earliest JRPGs as Wizardry and Ultima 's early entries are what caught on in Japan back then, not D&D. This is one the major reasons JRPGs don't reflect the pointless D&D comparisons, because their sources are two entirely different types of RPG from D&D.
Jordan Clark
Sarevok is heavily nerfed in EE, zoomer.
Kayden Brooks
Every single game in that list is at least 9/10 except Kingdom Hearts, that series is 6/10 some days and 10 on others. Ys too I guess. Don't pretend like you've played a single game on that list.
Carson Peterson
>Such as? I can't think of a single jrpg with a fleshed out summon system, much less entire genres. megami tensei and pokemon, you absolute retard.
Jayden Baker
Is high fantasy allowed to have submarines and airships? Honest question.
That's where you are wrong. But please elaborate on what's post-apocalyptic about Nocturne's gameplay, without saying >well the overworld is post-apocalyptic you see
William Moore
I don't take sides, I enjoy both WRPG and JRPGs for what they are, I also am not deluded enough to think WRPG are mechanically superior to JRPGs in any way just because they're (poorly) based on tabletop games, which I also enjoy.
What I don't like is this literal obsession and poor attempt at pavlovian training by chronically spreading gross misinformation in the name of tribal fanatism.
Angel Murphy
Crpgs are fucking trash and a dead genre who's remnants need to beg on kickstarter for scraps. Nobody wants this shit, nobody is shelling out top dollar for retro crpgs, while JRPGs like Earthbound and Chronotrigger fetch $100s.
Eli Allen
>Implying all JRPGs aren't all casual copies of "old boomer games" for the lat 30 years Uh, should I tell him?
And literally every single on of their titles have summoning systems vastly inferior to any WRPG in existence.
Josiah Stewart
>why do you guys even take a side in this? because jrpgs are kino and wrpgs are shovelware.
Carter Barnes
>this is wrong You get to create your own classes, you have the basic archetypes right there (warrior, thief, healer, mage), you have the Vancian magic system, and a setting which is pretty much sword & sorcery. This is what I mean by stereotypical.
lmfao JRPGs are nearly 100% dead in the west. Bethesda/Bioware games and their clones completely killed them. Only a handful of waifu fags and Pokemon autists are keeping them afloat.
>Except even something as basic as Earthbound on the SNES did, let alone other series like SaGa No they don't. In those games enemies are not visible outside of combat, only field icons are. So while exploring you might see a snake, and upon touching it, you get brought to a separate battle screen where you fight 2 snakes, a slime and a wolf. In wrpgs, ALL enemies tend to be visible outside of combat.
Again, it's quite obvious you haven't played any of the games we're discussing.
>which also handle enemy sense mechanics AND aggro patterns better than your generic proximity based shit in WRPGs, where a Vampire Champion behaves in the same exact way as a Kobold or a lizardman. Lolwut. Please explain to me how those games do that.
>That would require you to play videogames So you are unable to come up with any jrpg examples of actual summoning. Thanks for proving my point.
>you punctually bitch about any summon system that isn't based on the IE design The IE games didn't invent the concept of summons, you retard. Summon magic existed in rpgs before the jrpg genre even existed. Its jrpgs that misused the term for shit like 'flashy cutscene attack', which has nothing to do with actual summoning.
>Grease is a slow+chance of shutdown debuff, Yes, and it's a debuff that consists of manipulating the environment by placing the grease field on acrtain area, where it will remain for a duration. THis sort of environmental interaction is almost non-existent in jrpgs. I have no idea why you would be in denial about this.
>Only to drooling retards like you who think it's a good idea to cast Grease and then send their low reflex save units to melee. Are you implying sending high reflex save units would be wise? Characters standing in a grease field have to continually make saving throws to prevent being slowed, so snding even high reflex units isn't particularly smart.
Souls games are based on Japanese ARPGs you mongoloid fuck.
Sebastian Scott
>THis sort of environmental interaction is almost non-existent in jrpgs. I have no idea why you would be in denial about this. Most likely because you're wrong as fuck
>D&D had little influence on the earliest JRPGs FF1 is a literal japanese Goldbox D&D game, it is also unironically a pretty competent virtual transposition of the AD&D manual for its time, possibly one of the better ones too, especially when it comes to things like the bestiary which iirc is one of the most complete and accurate representation of the AD&D bestiary of its time, outside of some swaps here and there.
Dragon Quest is a classic Ultima clone though, you're right about that.
Christian Adams
What are Crpgs?
Jacob Foster
Lol, love the ironic pasta.
Wyatt Thompson
user, post examples.
Isaac Butler
>megami tensei and pokemon, you absolute retard. Except the creatures in those games function like party members. You don't summon them, you recruit them and then they join you on a permanent basis (unless dismissed).
How is this such a difficult conceptr for you to grasp?
Thief is meme-tier trash. Tenchu came out before both and is superior.
Connor Davis
>X is way better than Y >being a good thing I knew WRPG fags were casuals
Carson Bailey
>these games are bad because i say so >also i say so in a way that suggests ive never actually played the games im critiquing
you also have a base issue of thinking this merging method is the only way to go. it's not. not all games are the same. not even all rpgs. some rpgs are more about the systems. others are more conceptual or thematic. there are many approaches. none are wrong. some are simply not to your taste.
no one goes into diablo expecting planescape torment. no one plays runefactory expecting ffvii no one plays steambot chronicles expecting toee.
if you did thats on you. all the games listed do what they set out to do well, and each one is enjoyable in their own right.
as always this wrpg vs jrpg is pointless and idiotic. especially when you consider wrpgs and jrpgs left out or that anons randomly decide dont count because I-ITS NOT A JRPG IF IT DISPROVES MY POINT and other mass leaps of logic from both sides of the argument that are all about affirming an abstract personal bias and forcing it on others through a tangle of on the spot made up rules and logical fallacies than by any actual interest in a core truth.
Blake Ross
Neither of those have summoning systems. See
Carter Wood
>FF1 is a literal japanese Goldbox D&D game, How so? FF1 lacks the tactical combat system of the goldbox games, as well as its first-person dungeon exploration.
Levi Flores
This brings back memories of the great summon war where we went in length explaining JRPG kiddo why Shin Megami Tensei's "summons" weren't actually summons, but mercenaries for hire.
Hunter Moore
Every single jrpg on a grid features environmental hazards and traps.
Noah Carter
>WRPG none of your dialogues matter the ending is red green or blue >JRPG the end is dictated by the game watching the players actions in the game rather than dialogue options that will be ignored later anyways
Michael Williams
good job cherrypicking one of the shittiest JRPG's OP
Jayden Butler
Bethesda and Bioware games. Obviously they're dead in the west.
Luke Sanders
>Every single jrpg on a grid features environmental hazards and traps. Not really. Fire Emblem and FFT have no abilities lik Grease, Web, etc that change the environment.
Jackson Martin
kagutsuchi phases gottem, keep seething in your eternal cope
Matthew Young
>summoner-kun is here Oh well, it's been a while. How are you doing, faggot?
Kevin Campbell
Literally who? When was this article published? 2004? Because every western faggot has been aping Dark Souls mechanics for years.
James Foster
Except the maps have hazards on them and you abuse them.
Oliver Flores
what I only talked about setting and how an RPG can take advantage of it or simply use it as a background.
What good is Dieselpunk+magic setting when in Final Fantasy the closest thing to "Dieselpunk" you have is a couple characters using guns? There's absolutely nothing Dieselpunk about Final Fantasy's mechanics, because it is based entirely on common equipment + materia (magic). Same with Final Fantasy VI and Edgar's tools, which are nothing compared to the whole Esper and Relics systems. Final Fantasy X is more of the same, the Sphere Grid system has no relationship to its world which mixes science and magic.
I enjoyed all these games when I played back when I was a teenager, but that doesn't mean setting and gameplay were cohesive, because they certainly weren't.
Gavin Rodriguez
Exactly
Ethan Lopez
Never actually played BG, but that doesn't seem all that feasible especially for a 90's game given that the allure to tabletop RPG combat is so centered around thinking outside the box.
Joseph Cruz
wrpgs are the ones that are stagnant. just look at pillars of eternity which didn't learn anything in 20 years. they keep trying to be single player dungeons and dragons which will never be a good game because of techincal limitations. jrpgs have evolved into self insert friend simulators like persona and are becoming more refined every year.
Dominic King
JRPG choice and consequence:
>Will you save the kingdom, user? >Yes/No >Choose no >But you have to!
Bentley Carter
Abusing the hazards in the map is not the same as being able to set your own, though.
Austin Evans
>You don't summon them, you recruit them and then they join you on a permanent basis (unless dismissed). t. never player devil summoner btfo
Jace Carter
What does the C mean? Choice?
Jayden Jones
Name a single memorable WRPG character
you're can't[/spoiler[
Brayden Hughes
What does that have to do with post-apocalypse?
Asher Gomez
Give me a quick run-down on him.
Jacob Ward
I can't think of anything worse than liking WRPGs
Zachary White
Lol, wrong wrpg kun. But Pokemon alone could buy and sell bethesda and the less cancerous portions of bioware. Stay mad.
Christopher Allen
bro ur gonna need to elaborate... ur reply was kinda wack
Gabriel Thomas
It's hilarious when weeaboos conveniently ignore the fact that the Fallout, Diablo, Elder Scrolls, etc etc etc series are all WRPGs because they dominate the market.
Jace Lewis
That's literally just Final Fantasy tropes. Play better games.
Adrian Cox
Cuckold
Isaiah Barnes
Play Doom And Destiny Advanced, summoners are literally Pokemon Trainers there.
Lucas Reed
>No they don't. In those games enemies are not visible outside of combat, only field icons are. The mechanics for prompting combat is the exact same, so no matter how much you bitch and moan, it's the same thing. You want me to fuck you in the ass even harder? Babby's first game, Chrono Fucking Trigger has the same exact no transition design you wank so much, and it wasn't even the first JRPG to have it. >Lolwut. Please explain to me how those games do that. Ohhhhh babby can't check a wiki for basic mechanics anymore? Turns out you are the one who actually doesn't play the games you so like to discuss, if you don't even know how enemy icons in SaGa games have their own sense, aggro and even movement mechanics after so many times I reminded you that it makes it even more hilarious. >So you are unable to come up with any jrpg examples of actual summoning. I already did, are you stupid? Oh wait, I forget, you don't actually play videogames, you only like to talk about them after reading what you can find in a wiki. >The IE games didn't invent the concept of summons This isn't the point, retard, good job at showing how terminally stupid you are since not only you bitch and moan about any summoning mechanic that isn't the basic bitch IE one, you also can't understand basic english. >and it's a debuff that consists of manipulating the environment by placing the grease field on acrtain area You're not manipulating a damn thing, Grease also eventually expires, like Pit, Web or Death Cloud do, it's literally a timed debuff AoE with pointless window dressing. >THis sort of environmental interaction is almost non-existent in jrpgs. Even basic bitch games like Tactics Ogre or Front Mission have the same AoE "environmental" mechanics, who are you trying to fool? >Are you implying sending high reflex save units would be wise? You're the one pretending that Grease is a "double edged sword" that's the only scenario when it can be, which you yourself admit is retarded.
>Lol, wrong wrpg kun. Why? Because they're huge, successful companies that release AAA games that sell tens of millions in the current year? Daily reminder that the Baldur's Gate series was developed by Bioware.
Cameron Perez
Which is beside the point entirely. >hurr durr JRPG have no environment hazards at all
Pretty much all japanese roguelikes (mystery dungeon, shiren, azure dreams, that one PSP one with the silly name) SRPG like usually have them with entirely classes around that. There's stuff like Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter, where the main gameplay is setting traps and indirect combat.
Julian Myers
Can I actually do that in DaS with the Silver Pendant?
Jaxson Taylor
Some wrpg autist thats mad at Japan for completely dabbing on his favored genre.
Justin Cooper
>Sphere Grid system has no relationship to its world The world is called Spira dude
Gabriel Evans
>Except the maps have hazards on them and you abuse them. What maps? Fire Emblem 7 for example literally only has a handful of mines in the entire game that deal some minor damage. They're so much of an afterthought that you could remove them (indeed, they are absent from other FE games).
Aiden Thomas
seething
Thomas Campbell
Fucking demolished.
Christopher Taylor
This pathetic WRPG-cuck has to try to claim JRPGs as WRPGs
Zachary Ward
>Chrono Fucking Trigger has the same exact no transition design you wank so much Except Chrono Trigger does have transitions.
Connor Campbell
>WRPGs are supposed to be about roleplaying and choices >there's not a single one that has an evil route better than in a fucking Neptunia game
So? Them not making enough damage for you doesn't mean they don't exist.
Luis Cox
>bethseda >>rpgs >>>bioware >>>>still alive
Nathaniel Ortiz
Jrpgs have better stories and more refined gameplay as it’s sort of boxed in
WRPGs have worse stories and more freedom with the gameplay but it isn’t as refined
Andrew Hughes
This lmao. There's a reason why WRPGs are so beloved while J"RPG"s are hated and mocked. JRPGs are our most hated video game genre.
Eeeeeyup. Us WRPGbros have the God of game design on our side. Safe to say the weebs got BTFO forever.
WRPGs are better games and always will be. We hate JRPGs for very detailed reasons.
Evan Lewis
>SRPG like usually have them with entirely classes around that No, they don't. You have yet to name a single example.
Nina's traps in Dragon Quarter are the only thing that come to mind (though that's not an SRPG).
>Pretty much all japanese roguelikes (mystery dungeon, shiren, azure dreams, that one PSP one with the silly name) Roguelikes are generally not considered rpgs in discussions as these. and the japanese roguelike genre is entirely derivative (and greatly simplified) of the west, anyway
Leo Campbell
The only thing they release is jank-infused, buggy shovelware. Baldurs gate is old trash, Pokemon is the biggest Rpg ever, stay mad.
>The only kind of evolution JRPGs have undergone is of a cosmetic nature: Final Fantasy was no Ultima, and its endless sequels had to be justifed in some way -- and so they were. CG or anime-style cutscenes and countless hours' worth of voice-acting and orchestral soundtracks were the justification, piled up, stacked and shoved inside cartridges, CD-ROMs, GD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs, and soon enough Blu-ray discs and who knows what else.
>And the results of this unchecked and wholly misdirected "evolution"? They can be clearly seen today simply by contrasting the kinds of questions asked by fans of Western and Japanese CRPGs on the launch of a new title. While the former are eager to know about the character creation process, non-linearity, multiple endings, and whether they can be evil, the latter seem to care little about anything besides the names of "character" designers and music composers. Market economies being what they are, everyone ends up getting what they asked for.
>And there was never a question of these games evolving to overcome their humble origins, as happened in the West. Western CRPGs have kept evolving because there has always existed consciousness of a direction towards which to evolve; JRPGs, meanwhile, have been going round in circles ever since their inception -- Fallout is worlds away from Akalabeth; not so Lost Odyssey from Final Fantasy.
So fucking true that it's almost painful. Jrpg defenders, how can you read the above sentences and not see the obvious truth?
Carson White
This man is comfortably among the 20 smartest people currently living and his favorite video games are JRPGs. Say something nice about him!
they're also used for taking control of enemy units
Nolan Rodriguez
>we Yea Forums is a Anime board and likes Jrpgs by default you need to either leave or lurk more
Adam Ortiz
>Souls games are WRPGS okay this is epic
Isaiah Turner
The JRPG formula derives from Dragon Quest, a game which explicitly set out to simplify things for mass market appeal. Although many of the design choices it has are due to the hardware, one of the primary design goals was to make the genre more accessible and streamlined.
so I guess calling them for babbys is probably right
despite this, western home computer style RPGs just kinda blow They're universally clunky. They sound interesting and complex on paper, and then they're a slog to play.
This is flat bullshit. FF1's magic system and good portions of its bestiary are very literally ripped from the pages of D&D.
a decent bit of FF7's story involves a corporation with the powers of a nation that literally went to war to sell electricity to them that's pretty fucking cyberpunk
>What is the point of going with a futuristic setting if it's functionally and thematically identical to a medieval fantasy world? this is a real issue nothing pisses me off more about this than fucking Star Ocean the vast majority of the game (well, I dunno about SO4, but SO1, 2, and 3 are appalling about this) is on some pre-industrial shithole I want to fucking travel the galaxy and have space combat and beam down to strange planets and get into fights with the natives.
Grayson Ross
REKT E K T
Colton Robinson
FF went downhill because they started focusing on mmos which they are honestly much better at making, XIV 1.0 aside
Zachary Powell
They nearly killed JRPGs in the west outside of Pokemon, user. That's how successful they are. They're so successful "cRPG purists" try and pretend that they don't exist and/or claim that their games aren't actual RPGs (lolwut). Skyrim is more of an RPG than 90% of JRPGs ever made. Dark Souls is admittedly great, though. I'll give the Japanese their due when it's warranted.
Austin Morgan
Bethesda makes more money in a day than Fatlus will ever make in their lifetimes. Watch who you're shittalking, JRPG kiddo.
He's more like a veteran of the RPG wars and has been a fantastic asset to our superior WRPG army. JRPG kiddos art trying to paint him as the next Barneyfag lmao.
Logan White
>and the japanese roguelike genre is entirely derivative (and greatly simplified) of the west, anyway t. hasn't played a single jap roguelike and no, DF isn't one
Connor Garcia
Because JRPG fans literally shit their pants and cry if a game in their beloved series of Dragon Quest clones tries to do something not cookie cutter and boring. Breath of Fire fans literally killed their own series because of Dragon Quarter for purely shitter reasons. >d-meter scares me, but can't let people know I suck! >make up lies that the game "punishes you for being a dragon" instead >say it isn't a BoF game despite it sharing all the common threads that link the series together
Luis Lee
Lmfao Pokemon is shit for 8 year old brainlets.
Jaxon Martinez
>Say something nice about him! have sex
Jackson Long
Money isn’t everything user. Bethesda is finally starting to eat shit for their practices 76 was a disaster
Carter Williams
just because elona is a crappy adom clone doesnt mean jap roguelikes dont suck
Benjamin Baker
Recommend good JRPGs thread? Recommend good JRPGs thread.
-
Unlimited SaGa (this was panned back in the day, but it's actually genius) Dark Souls Dragon's Dogma Bloodborne SaGa Frontier (play as one of several characters, some with highly specific stories, others where youre more in control, a non-linear game that doesnt hold your hand fun tb battle system and outcomes to plots tied to decisions made through gameplay rather than dialogue [example: the outcome to whether a certain playable character regains her humanity, partially fully or not at all] and many other beautiful stories) Live a Live Legend of Mana (wonderful crafting systems world placement all about others stories rather than your own but ties in concepts about you and your apprentices into some like the end of the jumi story) Romancing SaGa Zill Oil and Zill Oil infinite Metal Max Chrono Trigger (if you dont know why you dont deserve to play good games) Uncharted Waters 2 Suikoden IV Sword World and Sword World 2 Taiko Risshiden V Chaos World Wizap Dark Law TO Let Us Cling Together Minstrel Song (for its battle system more than anything is a gem)
Camden Carter
BOOM! JRPG defenders have been completely defeated by our eloquence and grace.
This. Bethesda is one of the most cherished and respected companies in modern vidya for a reason. Skyrim didn't get all this acclaim for nothing. The only reason people hate it is because JRPG kiddos can't think for themselves.
>Nina's traps every character can use traps from the beginning of the game.
>Roguelikes are generally not considered rpgs in discussions as these. Which is complete nonsense. Roguelikes are a subgenre of RPG. Period. Stop trying to shut down posts that don't fit your narrative, fuckhead. > and the japanese roguelike genre is entirely derivative (and greatly simplified) of the west, anyway And that's just weak bait. Try harder.
Daniel Roberts
is Jan Jansen the best companion? I think he is, right?
Asher Gonzalez
>all this weebshit Just play some planescape and have sex
Ethan Martin
Jrpgs are patrician tastes >better story than wrpgs >refined gameplay from years of repetition >better characters >better aesthetics And on and on
Christian Taylor
>ripped straight from D&D >the D&D monsters are actually generic things you find in almost any RPG setting including Wizardry and Ultima HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Camden Flores
>It's another thread of wrpgfag replying to himself
Okay, now you’re just pulling shit out of your ass.
Dylan Hall
user, all JRPGs are bad. You just listed entirely bad games. What's your problem?
Based and redpilled. Us WRPG fans don't complain when the developers of our favorite series change something. That's because we are of higher intellect.
Jack Evans
DQ is explicitly the cookie-cutter series. It exists because people just want a familiar game.
in straight contrast, FF went around changing things every game kinda still kinda wonder how things would be different if fucking Xenogears was released as FF7 like it was proposed to be
Jeremiah Taylor
>they are all invariably based on Tolkien’s books Every time
Jackson Perry
>Western CRPGs have kept evolving because there has always existed consciousness of a direction towards which to evolve; Last big news about WRPG I remember is WRPGfags being mad they can or can't romance someone in a bioware game.
"""Evolution""""
Luke Wood
Yeah but that's also because jrpgs we're dead outside of like two games. The tastes of gamers changed, in the ps2 era it was all about the latest jap game but the next gen was all about shooters and bioware games
Brandon Richardson
I know it's not technically an RPG of any kind, but everyone here really should play Steambot Chronicles fromt he PS2. It wasn't particularly visually impressive even in the PS2 era, and the visuals haven't aged well, but everything is else superb.
Cameron Wright
it's not like either game existed in a vacuum outside of what D&D was busy popularizing at the time
John Foster
Guaranteed replies
Ayden Martin
JRPG kiddo pls go. Your genre is universally bad and nothing can disprove that.
DQ is like the dumpster baby of Reddit, Tumblr, and Facebook. It's shit but people love it for some reason.
Have sex JRPG kiddo
Easton Reed
WRPG designers don't have the creativity to do anything but rip off Tolkien constantly.
Austin Price
>warpigs start losing the argument >suddenly argumentum ad populum and appeal to authority arguments
>Planescape At least post something Yea Forums actually likes such as Morrowind
Kevin Garcia
And D&D hadn't become popular in Japan at that time. Wizardry and Ultima actually took off though. Wizardry had a huge impact on Japanese RPGs and taste in RPGs, to the extent that Wizardry itself is now Japanese owned and pretty much only made and published there anymore. Rather sad actually.
Lincoln Scott
Exactly. Shit at least Sqaure Enix came up with their own shit.
>better story than wrpgs No >refined gameplay from years of repetition Yes >better characters Sometimes >better aesthetics Almost always
Joseph Hernandez
>No, they don't. You have yet to name a single example. Even fucking Nippon Ichi games like Phantom Kingdom let you build and even drop fucking buildings on people, in fact a big part of the strategy in those games is base building, which is literally all about planning based on your environment. Disgaea, one of the most fucking braindead game of its subgenre has geopanels being a major mechanic that is literally all about positioning units and objects on a map depending on the geoline layouts and perhaps the biggest reason why those games are braindead, because positioning invalidates 90% of the other mechanics thanks to Geopanels. You know what mathematicians in FFT use as a spell trigger factor? Elevation. That's right, positioning.
There's so many fucking examples you'd have to be absolutely completely retarded to say JRPGs don't have positional mechanics, even fucking SRW games have positional and environmental mechanics, fucking SRW, the absolute bottom of the barrel in terms of SRPG mechanics in japan, even lower than the lowest FE. You're a fucking drooling retard.
I don't even hate JRPGS--I enjoy many of the older ones. However, if you want to be an autist, it's easy to make the claim that most JRPGs aren't actual RPGs since you're forced into a linear, predetermined role while most western RPGs allow you to create your own character and roleplay as X. For all of their flaws, games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, et al pulled that off flawlessly.
Isaiah Davis
Classified as RPG. You explore dungeons. You equip shit. You defeat bosses. Inventory management.
Brody Garcia
Which was made by square Enix
Josiah Morris
That just looks like your standard QTE-fest turn-based/action hybrid JRPG locked to a tile-based system, essentially crippling its versatility.
Ryder Nelson
exactly the west and east are both creatively bankrupt thats why its up to superior Africa to roll out the future of truly realized RPGs
Daniel Ortiz
>You want me to fuck you in the ass even harder? Babby's first game, Chrono Fucking Trigger has the same exact no transition design you wank so much
Not really. The combat transition in CT isn't seamless. When combat begins, both enemies and player characters awkwardly slide into place into preset positions. Also, enemies in CT can't even really chase you outside of combat like they can in wrpgs, they tend to have set positions that they circle around and never abandon.
It's also literally the only turn-based jrpg where enemies are visible outside of combat, so it's incredibly dishonst to pretend like it's representative of jrpgs in generak.
>Turns out you are the one who actually doesn't play the games you so like to discuss, if you don't even know how enemy icons in SaGa games have their own sense, aggro and even movement mechanics after so many times I reminded you that it makes it even more hilarious. So basic stuff like some enemies being able to see you farther or some enemies being able to camouflage with their surroundings and sneak up on you? Games like Dungeon Master did this in the 80's (and enemies were fully visibl outside of combat, not some field icon shit like SaGa), how is that novel in any way?
>I already did, are you stupid? Nope, you haven't. Keep seething.
>Even basic bitch games like Tactics Ogre or Front Mission have the same AoE "environmental" mechanics, who are you trying to fool? I know Tactics Ogre has stuff like being able to set up barricades, but who are you fooling? This sort of thing is vry restricted and has very limited use. A far cry from the tons of abilities that are all about manipulating the battlefield in different ways in something like Baldur's Gate
Besides, it's telling that you have to resort to strategy/tactics games to find basic tactical options present in even the most casual wrpgs (and even then, you can't really find them?
Carson Turner
You're a moron. DQ was made by Enix. Not Square-Enix.
William Perry
I had no idea TWEWY and Dragon Quest were the same thing.
Evan Gomez
Damn dude by that definition Red Dead Redemption 2 is an RPG.
Isaiah Hall
Western games did evolve though. WRPGs started off with simple games like Ultima and Wizardry and gradually added more things through the mid 80s to late 90s. In JRPGs, they were still just copying stripped-down versions of Ultima (a game from the early 80s) for generations and the biggest innovations was the level of cinematics, music and graphics in the SNES and PS1 days.
Mason Torres
They are! But did you know Dragon lance was a girl all along?
Justin Parker
Also, summons really matter (they appear beside your party members and can really turn the tide of a difficult fight). Summons take up resources to call, have their own AI and disappear as the battle ends. The game is parody JRPG made by Italians.
Henry Watson
>It's also literally the only turn-based jrpg where enemies are visible outside of combat, so it's incredibly dishonst to pretend like it's representative of jrpgs in generak. The irony that you speak of dishonesty after saying that.
SMT IV:A doesn’t count fuck you that being said I loved it
Brody Williams
What’s the best place to start with this series?
Luis Gonzalez
Have you played YIIK yet? Its a postmodern rpg nothing else is really like it. Guess you could call it an evolution of the WRPG
Matthew James
>and gradually added more things through the mid 80s to late 90s And then? Tell me more. Did they continue this trend of topping themselves each time? Or is it the same exact shit with better graphics since the 90s? Where is the evolution people speak of?
Leo Baker
>jrpgs force you into a linear role >not like my superior wrpgs >like skyrim where youre forced into being the dragonborn
Lots of JRPG's have broken builds just like this one here in W3. There other ways to experience combat in this game without essentially cheating like your example here.
Asher Brown
RDR2 is an rpg, not even joking
Michael Williams
Baby, we're not spoonfeeding you. Go back to your Tifa pillow if you're so seething about the Chadness of the WRPG squad
Matthew Robinson
STOP SHILLING YOUR FAVORITE GAME AND FUCKING TELL ME THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IT AND TOMATO ADVENTURE AAAAAAAAAAAAAH
>finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Ranger_(Tactics_A2) Well, that's nice. I only played the first FFT, which had no abilities whatsoever that affected the battlefield, so it's nice to see them adding something to the formula with the later games.
>every character can use traps from the beginning of the game. I'm talking about Nina's trap circle spells, not the food stuff you can throw outside of combat. Still though, the point stands: it's still an extremely rare mechanic in jrpgs. Of the thousands of jrpgs that exist, so far, you can only come up with two jrpgs that have mchanics like this. By contrast, wrpgs are far fewr in number being a dead genre for most of its lifetime, yet I could come up with hundreds of wrpgs that have mechanics like that.
Owen Price
>It's shit but people love it for some reason. DQ was outright designed for mass market appeal, a game that people who weren't into the RPGs of the day could pick up, get into, and not be too put off by its complexity.
it was a successful formula, so the games kept getting made
the Japanese names of the FF1 monsters are largely just straight up comprised of monsters from the AD&D monster manual (really obvious examples are the Beholder and Mindflayer, which are without question just from D&D) like, you can literally go look it up
Xavier Gonzalez
persona is megaten based retard
Jordan Wilson
because they're only made to push woke political agendas. the actual gameplay is not a priority.
>where youre forced into being the dragonborn Yeah, but the dragonborn can be the town drunk, a murdering psychopath wanted in every city, a hippy elven woodsman, etc. Personally, I believe the game has a ton of flaws, bugs, and boring ass quests, but it's a roleplayer's sandbox. I've known autists that have sunk thousands of hours into the game simply by playing a role without ever following the main quest.
Aiden Bennett
Oh what's that? Couldn't come up with a single example? >Still though, the point stands Not really.
By that logic I could say FF8 isn't linear and about solving the world from space witches, because I played Squall as a TCG player, obsessed with getting every card in his deck. All that witch hunting shit? Just for kicks.
Carter Walker
nah the story of the dragonborn has nothing to do with anything you just said its a linear story lasting about 2 hours the open world and the rest of the game are just there they exist but they have no relevance or purpose everything done in the open world is done in a vacuum the main story is exactly the same no matter what
Grayson Garcia
That's basically the only way to play the game, though. Doesn't everyone do that? The card game was almost better than the actual game.
Jose Ward
Why would you need to shit on JRPGs? You can play all RPGs and then just keep the ones you like, they're also not mutually exclusive. Everything is alright. Also I think I sound like a weed addict.
James Hall
The only thing that picture really shows is how a heavy focus on graphical and cinematic presentation hinders gameplay. Shame that idea is only really understood by the RPG industry in the West.
Sebastian Russell
>Not really. How does it not stand when you are unable to come up with more than 2 examples of a certain mechanic in a genre that has thousands of games?
I really don't understand why jrpg fans are so weirdly defensive and in denial about their genre.
Nicholas Williams
Well, this explains a lot. >you and the enemy share a turn where they both can act >the "custom" bar indicates when the turn ends and possibly rearrange your skills for the next Why didn't you post that gif in the first place?
Anthony Powell
Nah. You can play it however you want. TT is only if you want to break the game hard. I beat the game the "normal" way as a kid (little to no grinding, not understanding junctioning).
Parker King
I love YIiK not even being ironic nobody gave it a fair shot just because basedboy MC
Matthew Flores
The open world and the roleplaying opportunities are the main draw of Bethesda games. The main story has always been tacked on as an afterthought. Has anyone ITT ever beat Daggerfall? Assuming anyone else besides me actually played it. I know that I never did but I sunk a bunch of time into the game.
Kayden Carter
Technically anything is “science fantasy” because magic is just fantasy science.
This really is a shit bait thread. I can’t believe I miss 2008 summerfag Yea Forums.
>a decent bit of FF7's story involves a corporation with the powers of a nation that literally went to war to sell electricity to them that's pretty fucking cyberpunk Except the story quickly turns to "lol let's chase Sephiroth" and the story loses all traces of cyberpunk.
Oliver Perry
yes, unless the ds games didn't change the graphics
Juan Johnson
Because apparently you have thread blindess and don't see any other titles mentioned. I don't see why you're so obtuse either. Or why you're calling JRPG a genre to begin with.
Blake Torres
And then there's the less obvious ones like the FF staple Behemoth being a Tarrasque.
Ryan Hall
Yup.
Nolan White
JRPGs have always used story to compensate for lacklustre gameplay. It came as a result of NES hardware limitations.
The problem is that JRPGs didn't unlearn that habit. FF7 and Kingdom Hearts are the only examples I can think of where the formula somewhat evolved from it's NES days. And even then those evolutions were high budget cutscenes and real time combat respectively.
Isaac Bailey
I haven't played that game in like 15+ years but now I'm getting the urge to play it again. The card game was fun as hell and the actual game was pretty fun, too. FF8 is severely underrated IMO. I enjoyed it more than FF7.
Hudson Mitchell
Because you could've just searched for videos.
Justin Johnson
>The combat transition in CT isn't seamless. Except it is >When combat begins, both enemies and player characters awkwardly slide into place into preset positions Those positions aren't preset, what does that have to do with no transitions either way? >enemies in CT can't even really chase you outside of combat like they can in wrpgs Neither they can in many WRPGs like M&M, Realms of Arkania or Wizardry, though I don't see you making a fuss for those for some reason, not to mention that again, there are JRPGs in which they do, like SaGa or Valkyrie Profile. >It's also literally the only turn-based jrpg where enemies are visible outside of combat Oh really? Now SaGa games and Earthbound don't exist anymore I guess despite you acknowledging them a few minutes ago. Not to mention other SNES games that have visible enemies on the map like Dark Law youtube.com/watch?v=Wy4wj7ejHAQ And this is just one of many examples. >So basic stuff like some enemies being able to see you farther or some enemies being able to camouflage with their surroundings and sneak up on you? Nope, but why don't you check a wiki for those mechanics instead of talking about shit you don't know? Oh wait, don't tell me this is something that isn't available in the wikis for you read...poor thing, even after all my posts in previous threads you still don't know about basic enemy behaviour in SaGa games. >how is that novel in any way? Nobody ever implied that, how desperate are you getting? BG isn't innovative either, I don't see you bitching about that though. >This sort of thing is vry restricted and has very limited use Weather manipulation doesn't have limited use, terrain manipulation like burning grass to nullify bonuses or destroying natural obstacles isn't limited either, but Grease, a slow+shutdown debuff is fucking rocket science to you >It's telling that you have to resort to strategy/tactics games Just like you do with Jagged Alliance? Kill yourself already.
I feel so bad for the real role-playing game fans in Japan who are constantly exposed to the horrid commercial bastard versions of real and pure games that are ultra obscure there and have a terrible entry barrier. I think about all the good times I've had with my game hobby clubs and Western games and it feels like I've taken it for granted way too much, because there's probably only a handful of groups like that in Japan. It's really pathetic that there are so many people here promoting baby game schlock instead of encouraging us to be better and ultimately more in harmony.
Dominic Gutierrez
Nah youre just the dragonborn. None of that other stuff exists or matters. It's just a tiny two hour story that cost 60usd. Anything else in the game is just to distract you from how linear and uncreative the actual game is, and how terrible its combat, interface and menus are.
Easton Myers
let's be real here 90% of the hate towards jrpgs is just normies who don't like anime. they don't want to admit that they reject an entire genre for such a shallow reason so they nitpick stuff that doesn't matter or that wrpgs are equally guilty of.
look at fallout 4 compared to fallout 2. not only did it not improve it went backwards.
Michael James
sneed
Easton Ross
>Except it is It literally isn't you dumb user. The moment you enter combat in Chrono Trigger the game plays by different rules. Seamless transition doesn't just mean "no cutscenes". Seamless transition is what Final Fantasy XII and Baldur's Gate have.
Christian Perry
this is pretty true, and it did piss me off when I was playing
Nicholas Perez
meanwhile in most JRPGs >villain asks you to join him >yes/no >say yes >heroine says WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, SURELY YOU ARE JOKING!!!? >back to yes/no
Joshua Reyes
I've been waiting for this.jpg
Evan Taylor
jrpg is the most outdated genre out there.
Thomas Reed
>blobber >rpg
Ryder Morris
>. The moment you enter combat in Chrono Trigger the game plays by different rules So do FFXII and BG, how do you think Round systems in RTwP work, you fucking retard?
Chase Stewart
I agree, user. Fallout 4 was a huge turd that even went so far as to voice the protagonist and stripped down the dialogue options to the point that your character effectively says the same thing. Still, it's considered a WRPG even though it's basically a cross between minecraft + any generic FPS that failed at being both. And normalfags lapped it up for some reason.
>The moment you enter combat in Chrono Trigger the game plays by different rules. Seamless transition doesn't just mean "no cutscenes". Seamless transition is what Final Fantasy XII and Baldur's Gate have. WHAT THE FUCK
>Because apparently you have thread blindess and don't see any other titles mentioned. What titles? People are so desperate for jrpg examples that they list shit like Fire Emblem 7, where you can encounter maybe a handful of mines in the entire game, as an example of jrpgs with an emphasis on environmental hazards.
>I don't see why you're so obtuse either. You're the one being obtuse. Are you really going to pretend that jrpgs have more environmental interaction than wrpgs? Even something as basic as being able to set traps is extremely rare in jrpgs (as evidenced by how you struggle to come up with more than 2 examples), much less something like a stealth system.
Jason Lewis
>Are you really going to pretend that jrpgs have more environmental interaction than wrpgs? Where did you pull this shit from? Do you have reading comprehension problems?
The entire conversation started by you claiming jrpg barely have it, people have disproven you. No one EVER said that jrpg have "more" than wrpg. You fucking clown dunce. People post examples and now you invent strawmen in your head. You complete imbecile, L M F A O
The difference is at least they don't even give you that choice if that's the case in the game. JRPGs are filled with these trap choices that just send you back to the question if you choose otherwise, often with the heroine or some other npc calling you out as if you were joking
Luis Gomez
yeah, high fantasy is just low fantasy + fantastical stuff
Matthew James
In something like TWEWY, you can use Psychokinesis pins to pick up objects on the field and slam them into enemies, fling them across the screen, or turn them into bombs to blow enemies the fuck up. Just wanted to add an example.
Michael Peterson
>Even something as basic as being able to set traps is extremely rare in jrpgs It's the same exact thing for most WRPGs though. You can't set traps in Pathfinder: Kingmaker either, they straight up do not exist, together with a lot of shit like crafting and that's one of the recently acclaimed "masterpieces" of the CRPG "renaissance".
Holy shit, are you dumb? >how do you think Round systems in RTwP work, you fucking retard? Why would there be rounds when you are not in combat? The point is that combat and movement is seamless in Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy XII. Want to attack an enemy? Just select the commands and attack them, no need to engage beforehand through a transition.
In Chrono Trigger you can't fight until you transition to combat. Whereas in Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy XII, you can. Because there's no transition to combat. Fighting in Chrono Trigger is like setting up a box fight in a ring. The major difference that system has with that of games like Final Fantasy VII is that you aren't being randomly set up in box fights whenever you walk around. Meanwhile, Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy XII is like engaging a pedestrian who is not even interested in combat.
Angel Parker
I like both genres, but I hate any game that jerks off japanese idol culture, FFVIII, P5 and FFXV are good examples.
Jeremiah Wright
Yeah they do. Mario RPGs all have that option, usually leads to a game over. Persona 4 Golden had it. 5 Royale will probably have something similar.
Ryan Taylor
>but I hate any game that jerks off japanese idol culture, Those are incredibly rare
John Jones
>FFVIII >idol culture ok you baited me, unleash your nonsense upon me.
Lincoln Parker
Soul Nomad actually lets you on a new game plus
Samuel Parker
Missing the point. In JRPGs it's extremely rare to ever break character or divert from the script. Even just morally grey stuff, side-quest choices, or whatever you never get a much of a moment to do something funny and non-heroic (or even different facets of heroism). Japanese games are way more scripted and framed like a on-rail film, and that's not something that should be unpopular to suggest.
John Morgan
>D&D had little influence on the earliest JRPGs Bestiary literally has many monsters taken from the D&D
Adam Wright
Which is why I said most. I could also cite Der Langrisser as an actual amazing example of choice and consequence in JRPGs, except it's been 20 years and literally almost nothing has come close JRPG wise, mostly because it's not exactly a feature JRPGs are known for or that the devs often bother implementing. Options that lead to an instant game over or a bad ending right after are also garbage unless said ending is actually meaty enough to warrant the choice instead of some mere 20 sec cutscene.
>JRPGs are filled with these trap choices that just send you back to the question if you choose otherwise WRPGs are entirely composed of choice loops that redirect you to Yes or No, if no is even an options, are you fucking kidding me? A lot of WRPGs don't even have such pretense either.
Not him but I'm not sure how anyone can argue against this. I enjoy well-written JRPGs for the exact reasons that you listed--because they tend to play out like scripted movies. However, I enjoy WRPGs, too. Why can't people just enjoy both genres for what they are?
At least with Bioware WRPGs this isn't true at all. How would you join the "evil" side in NWN main campaign? No, the only thing you can do to be "evil" is taking the dickhead dialog option or just say your character is evil when you're creating him. What you think is garbage or not matters absolute fuck all.
Josiah Wright
Play more old school Koei stuff.
Liam Torres
Dude, I consider myself a weeb but I'm I'm not blind and dumb enough to defend JRPG's gameplay. My issue with JRPGs is the gameplay is just too shallow. Just look at DQ11, for example. Even after 30 years, the gameplay is still "select move from the menu and watch the cutscene". Why can't I position my units freely on the battlefield? Why can't I create an obstacle on the battlefield to obstruct enemy's movement? Why can't I place my Tank at the front of the party to act as the vanguard? You pretty much only play the game for the story, and not for the gameplay.
Julian Moore
What the literal fuck else could transitionless mean you spergite
Leo Barnes
>Missing the point. In JRPGs it's extremely rare to ever break character or divert from the script [citation needed] >Even just morally grey stuff, side-quest choices, or whatever you never get a much of a moment to do something funny and non-heroic Neither you do in most WRPGs, most BioWare and Obsidian games are almost entirely on rail too, but somehow they don't count...
Nolan Turner
Characters look like they are from a japanese idol group, I don't know how to correctly explain, but I best way I can put, would be too much focus on /fa/ than world building and natural development, this is for RPG, for any other genre it works fine. >Freedom fighter looks like fashion model rather than a tired man
Jackson James
>roguelikes and SRPGs Those really aren't the games we're discussing here and you know it. Esp. when they have clear equivalents on the western sides.
Luis Perez
So your problem is that girls are attractive? You're a fucking dumbass
Liam Morris
I'm curious if Larian will make it more like div:os or just put their spin on RTWP, or some other shit.
Isaac Lopez
Because none of those features are seen as neccessary by the target market of DQ. They want a simple RPG. Period. If you want more complex stuff, then play more complex stuff. It's all under the RPG banner, shut the fuck up.
>[citation needed] One can post a list of games and you will post a list of games but the truth is most JRPGs are like that. It's literally why people play them: muh characterization. >Neither you do in most WRPGs, most BioWare and Obsidian games are almost entirely on rail too, but somehow they don't count... They aren't, though. Mention a single JRPG that has the freedom and moral nuance New Vegas has. This is the same game where you can contribute to a non-profit organization with medical supplies, help someone come to terms with their troubled childhood, and also having someone assassinate their own best friend. All without the game railroading you into doing those things.
Protip: you fucking can't.
Charles Taylor
Surely you're joking.
Trying too hard and failing.
Easton Moore
Uncharted Waters
Tyler Ramirez
>My issue with JRPGs is the gameplay is just too shallow >Take a look at literal baby's first JRPG whose entire identity is being shallow And even there, DQ11 has still a more solid system than games like the D:OS duology. >Why can't I position my units freely on the battlefield? Why can't I create an obstacle on the battlefield to obstruct enemy's movement? Why can't I place my Tank at the front of the party to act as the vanguard? Because besides missing the point of DQ, all of these do not necessarily add anything to a game, case in point, BG or Larian's trash. You want mechanically complex games about in depth strategies and party building? You play SaGa games, all the various SRPGs like Front Mission or Natural Doctrine.
Your complaint is the equivalent of saying Mario games are basic platformers, no shit, that's what they're all about, luckily, people with functional brains eventually branch out, but it seems you've got peanuts instead of brains and complain about the dumbest fucking things.
There is nothing wrong with a bit of fap material, user. The waifufags take it too far, though.
Dylan Brooks
I used to enjoy JRPGs as a kid/teen. However after reaching my 20s or so I started to find them rather boring and stale (nevermind that teenager protagonists really get annoying fast). Started playing WRPGs in my later teens since I always had a garbage PC beforehand and found them a lot better, mostly due to the actual roleplaying. That and I also enjoy muh D&D and its clones. Nowadays the JRPG I enjoy the most is Shin Megumi Transgay because of the setting, atmosphere, occultshit and LNC, though if Apocalypse is any indication it's been getting more and more pozzed for mainstream appeal.
I understand that a oxygen deprived faggot, such as yourself, would have a hard time with older Koei games. But you might be able to handle Inindo.
Adam Rodriguez
>these games I don't like have mechanics that don't add anything to a game >but these JRPGs I do like have mechanics that add everything to a game I wonder who could be behind this post...
Hunter Kelly
>the truth is most JRPGs are like that. Prove it. >it's literally why people play them: muh characterization. This is not a good hill to die on in the era of Witcher games being considered the best W"RPGs" around, I discourage you from ever seriously try to pass this as an argument, appeal to the mass will always work against you and make you look like a moron. >Mention a single JRPG that has the freedom and moral nuance New Vegas has. First off, New Vegas isn't a RPG, it's a shooter looter. Secondly "moral nuance" has nothing to do with RPGs and you know it. Thirdly, play more fucking games, if you somehow still don't know babby tier games for "MUH COMPLEX AND MORAL NUANCE" like Growlanser 4 you should stop wasting time in these threads and actually play fucking videogames.
Julian Cox
>this one developer of very unpopular games is representative of JRPGs as a whole
Mason Morris
SaGa games are a fucking mess though, and Front Mission stuff outside of 2 and 5 is pretty dumb.
Connor Williams
I just wish more JRPGs had character creation with full class customization and also a bit of choice and consequence in dialogue/joining different factions. Is it really that much to ask?
Nobody said that. I also seriously hope you don't want to tell me D:OS games have well implemented mechanics, especially not D:OS2.
Julian Roberts
>This is not a good hill to die on in the era of Witcher games being considered the best W"RPGs" around, I discourage you from ever seriously try to pass this as an argument, appeal to the mass will always work against you and make you look like a moron.
Not him, but games like RDR2 are more of an RPG than The Witcher and Mass Effect series, IMO. I still enjoyed The Witcher 2 and 3, though.
Ethan Nguyen
>character creation with full class customization Etrian Odyssey Labyrinth of refrain
Jace Martinez
>SaGa games are a fucking mess though Only to the uninitiated.
Aiden Price
>very unpopular games >UW still going strong >Baldur's Gate and other Crpgs are DOA Der Langrisser
Mason Lee
>using appeal to authority regarding RPG desing with fucking Sid Meier, the guy who makes the same game since 91
Dylan White
Isn't it strange that Jrpg fans will usually resort to picking Japanese games that they think is the most Western-like or complex (ie, most like Wrpgs) as the examples for best Jrpgs? The gears are moving in my head. It's really making me think. What are they trying to tell us here? What's going on?
Juan Scott
But Dark Souls series and Bloodborne are totally JRPGs, user!
Adrian Morris
Costa del Sol
Brody White
The problem is the clothes and hair style, they don't make fucking sense for the their characters, why the fuck would you use a stupid business suit to fight monsters, and why does it need to match you employer clothes, and why every character look like they came of a fashion show, can't they just wear normal clothes, everyone is wearing normal clothes, why would want to dress like a literal retard ? Don't go monster hunting with your stupid /fa/ clothes.
>Except it is No, not really. It still utilizes the same 'combat arena' approach as other jrpgs.
>Neither they can in many WRPGs like M&M, Realms of Arkania or Wizardry They absolutely can in Wizardry 8, which was the first Wizardry to have enemies visible outside of combat, to the point that there are spells with the specific purpose of creating distractions for the enemy. The same goes for Might and Magic, which had enemies visible starting with the 3rd game in the series.
And why the fuck are you listing wrpgs that are ancient and date back to the 80's? Yes, the oldest wrpgs also had invisible random encounters, but they had largely moved away from that by the early 90's, and for good reason. By contrast, modern blockbuster jrpgs like Persona 5 and DQ11 still haven't, which is absurd.
>Oh really? Now SaGa games and Earthbound don't exist anymore I guess despite you acknowledging them a few minutes ago. >Not to mention other SNES games that have visible enemies on the map like Dark Law For the billionth time, those games do NOT have enemies visible outside of combat. Field icons are not visible enemies. Get that through your thick skull, you retard. That
The fact that you're so desperate that you would post a misleading video of Dark law, a game that has enemies teleport in as soon as you enter a map, as an example just shows how pathetic you are.
>Just like you do with Jagged Alliance? Where did I mention Jagged Alliance in this discussion? Though even that is more of a regular rpg, since it has actual exploration and towns and stuff instead of just being a series of battles.
Jack Miller
If I wanted to be initiated into some accountant circle, I'd pick a real job that pays real money, not some third rate JRPG that tries to be different by introducing a heap of extremely poorly implemented mechanics.
Brandon Butler
Well, who else would one use? Garriot has completely lost his fucking marbles, Molyneaux scammed too many people, Bradley is Bradley, most of the big names of the past have retired or made massive fucking mistakes, then you have those people who are still around like Todd or Avellone, who are businessmen or writers, not designers and Sven, who can't design a RPG to save his life, there's frankly not a lot of choice. The wise thing would have been not making this argument to begin with, but alas, we're on Yea Forums.
Henry Garcia
The guy that made the same shitty city game for 3 decades? Lol. Pretty sad when the Japs made a better version of his own game on SNES EEEEYUUPP.
Austin Carter
>Prove it. The easiest way to prove it is how whenever someone asks for such an RPG they are recommended western RPGs. >This is not a good hill to die on in the era of Witcher games being considered the best W"RPGs" around You know who considers them the best WRPGs around? People who play console RPGs. It's not about "appealing to the mass": it's about appealing to the people who play JRPGs, because JRPGs has historically been a console centric market, which was the opposite of western RPGs until the 21st century. >First off, New Vegas isn't a RPG, it's a shooter looter. You are more pathetic than the people who say Dark Souls isn't a JRPG, did you know that? >Secondly "moral nuance" has nothing to do with RPGs and you know it. I didn't say it had, I just asked you if you can name a JRPG with the moral nuance New Vegas has. >Thirdly, play more fucking games, if you somehow still don't know babby tier games for "MUH COMPLEX AND MORAL NUANCE" like Growlanser 4 Why do JRPG fags act like their obscure JRPGs constitute "babby tier"? What's worse, if you actually use babby tier JRPGs in an argument (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest) they resort to THOSE DON'T COUNT. And give me concrete examples you idiot, it can't be that hard for a JRPG fag like you. I already mentioned examples for New Vegas.
Anthony Hughes
JRPGs aren't going for realism which is why I like them. If I wanted a pseudo-realistic rpg with magic or some shit, I'd just replay Morrowind, Skyrim, Fallout, etc etc again.
Xavier Martinez
This one is okay, I'm talking about post FF7 nomura tier, every single design he made looks stupid.
Samuel Jenkins
>western game designers are shitters, scammers or compulsive liars Sasuga
Adam Russell
>very unpopular games Considering most titles are Japan only, I would say yes. >Baldur's Gate and other Crpgs are DOA Of course, thanks to consoles. >Der Langrisser Same as Uncharted Waters.
Asher King
Not him, but the civ games are fun, dude.
Robert Price
It's funny that you mention this, because games like Uncharted Waters, Inindo, and SRPGs are the few JRPGs considered "good" by cRPG fans.
It's like deep inside they know the average JRPG is awful.
Ryder Perry
Aerobiz Supersonic
Noah Morris
His KH design looks okay for the type of setting.
Ayden Hughes
>this blatant samefagging Yikes Strange Journey
Dominic Young
>Is it really that much to ask? Self-insert, not even once
But quite a lot of JRPG protags are literally made to be self inserts, user, despite not being made out of char creation.
Ryan Russell
Try Asia release, not just Japan only. Racing Lagoon
Joseph Martinez
>No, not really. It still utilizes the same 'combat arena' approach as other jrpgs. Oh, now it's not about transitions but combat arenas, is it? >And why the fuck are you listing wrpgs that are ancient and date back to the 80's For the same reason you cherrypick every single argument and still stick to the same bunch of "safe" games to shitpost with, fight fire with fire or so they say. >the oldest wrpgs also had invisible random encounters Kingmaker also has random encounters and it came out barely two years ago, I don't see you making a big fuss about it. >For the billionth time, those games do NOT have enemies visible outside of combat. But they unequivocally do, screech more. >a game that has enemies teleport in as soon as you enter a map They only do in the dungeon, which is the point since it's a fucking cursed dungeon that literally spawns demons from hell, in quests, enemies are either semi hidden or plain visible, which you would know if you played the game. >Where did I mention Jagged Alliance in this discussion? Don't play coy with me little shit, you love to spam Jagged Alliance when it suits your need.
Leo Hill
>moeshit >Tales Of exists why even play this trash
Jacob Bennett
Ok you bitched about Persona 5 which states exactly why they wear the outfits they do in game.
There's nothing wrong with the outfits in FFVIII honestly, and I hate FFXV so much I'm not even going to bother defending it.
The simple truth of the matter is, both suck compared to tabletop. Neither WRPG or JRPG contain "actual" roleplaying. Roleplaying is not choosing a handful of dialog options.
Of course. Everybody likes brain dead fun once in a while.
Tyler Powell
Thank you consoles. Panzer Dragoon Saga
Liam Perez
>Panzer Dragoon Saga I've actually played this one and it was terrible.
Juan Carter
>how whenever someone asks for such an RPG they are recommended western RPGs. Prove it. >You know who considers them the best WRPGs around? People who play console RPGs. Last time I checked, Codexfaggots were vehemently opposed to console RPGs, yet lo and behold, Witchershit is in pole positon when it comes to best RPGs ever made. >You are more pathetic than the people who say Dark Souls isn't a JRPG Might be, not as pathetic as somebody without arguments though. >I just asked you if you can name a JRPG with the moral nuance New Vegas has. >NV >Moral Nuance Zill O'll, happy now? >Why do JRPG fags act like their obscure JRPGs Growlanser isn't obscure, no game with multiple entries, most of which localized in english is obscure. You want to know obscure JRPGs? Mermanoid is obscure, Black Matrix is obscure, not fucking Growlanser, just because you're an entry level idiot doesn't mean those games are obscure, it would be the equivalent of saying Master of Magic is obscure.
Eli Nelson
I always think that whoever makes these threads either wants more people playing old ass cRPGs or just a shitposting faggot
Isaac Baker
No accounting for your shit taste. Front Mission 2
Alexander Stewart
I fucking hate Zell, I hate his stupid face, I hate his retard introduction, I want to step on his face until his stupid tattoo disappear.
>Roleplaying is not choosing a handful of dialog options. That's not true, traditional games do have parts where you have to think abstractly. Unless you think role-playing games are all like chess or cards.
Jeremiah Sanders
Nobody wants to play cRPGs unironically.
Andrew Sanders
It's a face tattoo. In the 90's it was seen as edgy so they put one on an "edgy" character since they couldn't be bothered with actual character development.
Oliver Roberts
Fucking hell, if you seriously consider shit like SaGa games, Front Mission, and Natural Doctrine as mechanically complex games, you retard need to venture outside of your JRPG hugbox. And the reason for the lack of innovation in DQ11 is millions of JRPGtards will still gobble the game despite being almost identical to previous games. 50 years from now, you'll still "select Fireball from menu and watch the epic cutscene of you character casting the spell for 10 secs" in DQ55 because the game will still sell 8M copies. But that's okay because you can jerk off to your waifu.
Daniel Rivera
WRPGs are trying to recreate the tabletop experience, one of the things they do to this end is make games open world with countless story heavy sidequests, but I actually think this is contrary to the tabletop experience, I actually believe something like Deus Ex works better because it is a single linear quest taking you from one level to the next but making those levels non-linear and multi solution. Because while yes tabletop games are sandboxes, quests do have a certain linearity to them to keep you on track, your GM sees to that, you don't go to a new town and pick up 10 quests and finish them all hours apart from each other.
William Anderson
Yes, it's true. Choosing the kick the puppy dialog (+5 EVUL POINTS) is not roleplaying. Neither is stabbing the beggar for his money. Those are evil actions, but not roleplaying.
Luke Torres
>Zell >edgy
Gavin Parker
I think you're right. I mostly play JRPGs, but I'm starting to think that they aren't really "role playing" games more than for example Zelda or GTA, for the most part
Brody Taylor
WRPG-kun just has a massive inferiority complex towards JRPGs for some reason. He also enjoys vasting his life away in here trying to convince people that WRPGs are better, yet he only achieves the opposite.
I mean, if I were so sure about some supposed superiority I wouldn't even try to make arguments about it, it would be self evident, and yet here he is...
Hudson Brown
>. Because while yes tabletop games are sandboxes, quests do have a certain linearity to them to keep you on track, your GM sees to that, you don't go to a new town and pick up 10 quests and finish them all hours apart from each other. That's not true and depends on your GM and party. Plotlines and quests get forgotten or sidelined all the time. I don't even remember how many quests we ruined for our GM by being shitbags (evil alignment player group). One time he tried to get us to do a quest in some small village. Not only did we poison their well, we also burned the village down. On accident mind you, I was just trying out some grenade items and the houses caught fire. But if you already set one or two houses on fire, you might as well continue.
Ryan Perry
How exactly is managing a nation and forging alliances any more brain dead than selecting attack, magic, item, etc in simplistic turn based combat? JRPG combat is the very definition of brain dead but I still like some of them for the story.
You have Terranigma regularly making it into "hidden gems" lists. Fucking Terranigma, which received an English release.
Aaron Martinez
>if you seriously consider shit like SaGa games, Front Mission, and Natural Doctrine as mechanically complex games They are, SaGa games are unironically more complex than most WRPGs around, AND also better designed on a basic level. >50 years from now, you'll still "select Fireball from menu and watch the epic cutscene of you character casting the spell for 10 secs" As opposed to "select fireball from a menu and watch some piddly orange shit exploding on a bunch of braindead goblins" amidst a gorillion of bugs and various SJW propaganda. Yeah, I think I will user, thanks.
>You have Terranigma regularly making it into "hidden gems" lists. Fucking Terranigma, which received an English release. What are you even trying to say here? Terranigma wasn't released in the US, for a lot of people, it is a "hidden" gem.
I think the way narrative can be created around your actions helps this though, that you burned down that village, now the DM can build a story around you being hunted by some legendary lawman. Videogames can't seem to recreate this.
Adam Diaz
>Sir Kicksalot's outrageuos physic sandbox >RPG Don't do this user, lest people reply with Dragon's Dogma rabbit volleyball
Mason Flores
Play an SRPG dweeb.
Cooper Butler
What? The game that Demon's Souls ripped off, pic related, was developed by Spaniards.
That's my point why tabletop is superior. It's fluid and can be changed, stretched, paused, altered on a whim. I roleplayed my character when I threw those grenades, it's not something the GM anticipated or even thought of at all. And the GM adapted and we went on our merry way to more wanton destruction. You won't be able to do this for a while in vidya, maybe with better AI or something.
David Ramirez
>What are you even trying to say here? Terranigma wasn't released in the US, for a lot of people, it is a "hidden" gem. The point is Terranigma is widely considered to be one of the best JRPGs for the SNES. How could anyone consider it "hidden" in a time when the Internet exists? This is what I mean by "obscure" JRPGs being actually obscure as opposed to "babby tier", because Terranigma is a babby tier JRPG and even actual JRPG fans see it as a hidden gem when it is anything but that. I agree, but there has been talks about the voting being rigged.
Evan Price
people get so vitriolic over the wrpg vs jrpg debate, it seems both sides hates the other passionately to the point both weebs and wrpg fags unanimously characterise all wrpgs or jrpgs as shit and creatively bankrupt. I'm pretty sure both haven't played any of the other sides games except for basic surface level shit. and dragon quest was a rip off of wizardry, all jrpgs can trace their roots to wizardry.
>The point is Terranigma is widely considered to be one of the best JRPGs for the SNES Just googled "best jrpg", not one list had Terranigma on it. Only places like Yea Forums, reddit, codex etc still talk about it. >widely piff paff.
I already explained to you how it could be considered "hidden". The problem here though, is the fucking language barrier. There are hundreds of JRPG we know jack shit about. These are the obscure games. Things like that Capcom rpg about aviation in the BoF3 engine.
Dominic Powell
Witcher 3's design is far more in line with JRPGs than WRPGs.
Sebastian Bell
I absolutely agree the tabletop experience is better, my point is that tabletop RPGs have both narrative agency and urgency. Agency from the player and urgency from the DM.
Landon Gomez
Nah, WRPGs are the only ones pretentious enough to give you such a false emphasis on choice, think sub-par action combat is acceptable, and parade around such embarrassing, preachy writing. All typical WRPG traits.
>Just googled "best jrpg", not one list had Terranigma on it. Only places like Yea Forums, reddit, codex etc still talk about it. Reddit is very much a popular site, wouldn't you agree?
Dominic Nelson
You mean shit like DisGAYea, FFT, and FE? All are simplistic babby's first strategy game. And you damn well know that most weebtards play those games for waifushit, not for the gameplay itself. And we're discussing about gameplay in this thread.
Jack Cruz
I prefer neither wrpgs or jrpgs, but are you capable of citing games that didn't come out in the last 5 years? both genres have gone through their peaks and bottoms, and it seems profoundly retarded to characterise a whole genre of vidya based on one game.
Ryan Mitchell
You just described why Witcher 3 shares more with JRPGs than WRPGs.
Juan Robinson
>but are you capable of citing games that didn't come out in the last 5 years Sure, all 3 Mass Effect Games are a good start for how bad WRPGs can get. > both genres have gone through their peaks and bottoms There are JRPGs worth playing. Even the best WRPGs aren't particularly good. Fallout, Planescape Torment, Morrowind, all games even the most devoted fans will admit are heavily flawed and only fondly thought of for a handful of reasons.
Noah Mitchell
Those are all WRPG traits. JRPGs are much better.
Kevin Nelson
Shadow Hearts would work best for alternate history for jrpg
