I've been playing pic related for a few hours now and I don't really get the hype. Am I missing something?

it's alright?
it gets a bit better toward mid game

the issue is that chrono trigger is an "influential game" so if you've played games that were inspired by things that happened in chrono trigger, you probably saw stronger takes on how to do it

>more dialogue equals better characters!

Yup. Zoomer. If you can't appreciate this game it's fine, but don't make reasons out of your anus. People like Chrono Trigger for it's excellent pacing, charming story told through minimal dialogue, engaging gameplay, fantastic music and charming world. It seems you are trying way too hard just to compare a game released more than 20 years ago to a recent one. More isn't better, especially when P5's writing ranges from mediocre to awful. Dumbass.

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To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand this masterpiece.

Chrono trigger Is fucking Amazing

>Some of the best graphic on SNES, looks better today than certain other games released today despite being almost 25 year old at this point
>Mitsuda music is simply amazing
>Original plot about time travel
>Bosses that all have unique gimmicks and require their own strategy

I seriously don't know how anyone could like RPG and not like chrono trigger

If P5's writing may be mediocre in your eyes, but Chrono Trigger's writing is shit. People only dick ride that game because it's old. Also P5 has excellent writing and many people agree with me. You're only hating on it because it's new you stupid fuck grandpa.

>Am I missing something?
a soul

I'm probably even younger than you. I am just 19, dude. Comparing Chrono Trigger to Persona 5 is like comparing Belle and the Beast or the Lion King to fucking Frozen or any recent Disney movie. More isn't better; if you don't understand that, it's fine.

>N-no!
>gushes about p5 for the next two posts

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Stick to modern rpgs. Western ones.

So you're one of those people that like old games just for the fact that it's old. Now who's really pathetic?

Not an argument chronofag.

cmon dude its a SNES rpg with DBZ art, what more do you want? come on, its great

come on

I wasn't making an argument, dumbfag.

P5 fags on suicide watch

>I played a 25 year old game today and I don't like it. What's wrong with the game?

>this is your brain on waifufaggotry

The only good thing about Persona 5 is the gameplay, but too bad there hardly is any gameplay in the first place when everything is spoonfed to you and when there are literally 40 hours of cutscenes. All of the characters wanting to suck your dick for so much as looking at them doesn't make them good characters either. You fucking zoomer faggot.

>The only character you really end up caring about is maybe Marle
Well you outed your irreparably shit taste right then and there so I really don't mind all the stupid shit you said anymore. Just don't share any of your """"opinions"""" ever again, please.

>Chrono trigger has no interesting characters
>Every Character from the game has its own story
Fucking hell cunt.
That's why i prefer Chrono trigger & SMT strange journey.

This, there have been so many innovations to the RPG model at this point that it doesn't seem like anything special

if anyone unironically thinks this please neck yourself

Do you have any nostalgia for SNES games?
Otherwise you are going to have a problem.

lmao he mad

>Am I missing something?
Yes. Good taste.

The amount of cope

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>still looks and sound beautiful
>has a cool story and setting even for todays standards
>interesting and unique characters
>straightforward gameplay that's still fun (if you enjoy turn based combat)
i wish they still made jrpgs like chrono trigger.

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This kid gets it, I'm just not a fan of jrpgs really but I can tell chrono trigger is a masterpiece because it's one of the only ones I've considered playing and have played for a good ways in whereas personal 5 just looks like literal dogs hit, I honestly don't know who thought that ransom note of an asthetic was good but they are brain damaged. Who needs to role play as some shitty kid making retard friends; walk away from the screen nigga go get some friends.

> excellent pacing
this is the most important thing that I think gets overlooked. Chrono Trigger's pacing is marvellous, nothing overstays its welcome but everything feels fleshed out.
To compare that to Persona 5, where every 20 minutes of actual gameplay is sandwiched by an hour of tedious cutscenes, is absurd.

it's a shame that despite all those innovations they can't seem to figure out how to keep a game moving at a reasonable pace the way Chrono Trigger did.

Sit down on a couch and play it on a TV.

Also zoomers who've fried their brains on too much Unreal engine are advised to orient themselves by beating FF1 as a warmup.

Name a better RPG than Chrono Trigger.

I fucking dare you.

Final Fantasy Tactics

I think FFIV and FFV are better as far as gameplay goes. I think FF Tactics and Baldur's Gate 2 are better if we're talking any RPG, not just JRPG.
But for colorful accessibility without completely dumbing-down the gameplay it's hard to beat Chrono Trigger.

Revisiting the game now will not reveal some revolutionary secret. It is simply a classic and many after it adopted things it did exceedingly well. 'Classic' feels cheap to say but it's how I describe it. If you don't dig it it's cool. Have a pic of my first vidya crush.

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Depends on what you're looking for desu. I'd call Chrono Trigger a beginner's RPG, but I don't mean that in an insulting way. The game is exceptionally good at showing what's good about the JRPG genre, while being overall undemanding and accessible. Maybe games like SMT have more to offer genre veterans but CT is pretty much perfect at what it intends to do.

I do have nostalgia for SNES games but I also have a non-nostalgic desire to play an RPG that has a reasonably-paced gameplay loop that isn't constantly flooded with interminable cutscenes.

I can play Chrono Trigger for 2 hours and will probably be around Level 7 (after starting at 1) with 3ish rounds of equipment upgrades after having been flung back in time to the middle ages, rescued a princess, brought her back home where I had to stand trial for abducting her, fought my way out of prison, and then finally wound up in a post-apocalyptic future where I have to find out WTF went wrong.

2 hours into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and you've maybe gained 2 levels and finished the tutorial dungeon, and otherwise spent the entire time either wandering around the city or watching cutscenes.

Imagine being born after the 80s. It must feel fucking terrible knowing that you missed the golden generation of video games and now you're stuck with online-only SJW lootbox rehashed garbage. Video games stopped being good a long time ago. Maybe play with your hover board and fidget spinner instead. Or maybe just kill yourself.

How much of a loser NEET do you have to be like Persona 5? You are literally role-playing as a high school faggot who makes friends instead of going outside and making your friends lmfao.

Fucking this. I used to love JRPGs back in the day, but modern JRPGs are such horrible timesinks that I just can’t force myself to play them. Too much dialogue (that usually isn’t even that good), too much annoying dungeoneering, too much cutscenes.

Granted, the genre has shedded some of its old time wasters (random encounters, which should have fucking died a decade earlier than they did considering CT’s example), but overall the amount of filler is just too fucking much.

Silent protagonists in JRPGs are trash. It adds nothing to the game, it just makes character interactions needlessly bland.

Good taste, the ability to see, a soul. Take your pick op, at least one or all of these are what you're missing.

I threw there was a reason to press on after the first few miserable posts in this thread.

Also, FFVI == DQV > CT

Persona 5 is at least 60 hours. You guys hating on it played 60+ hours to completion don't even lie.

I played it for the first time and personally loved it. Maybe it’s just not for you?

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Game's namesake is one of the best scenes
It all makes perfect sense and isn't an asspull
Also optional, allowing you to craft the ending

Yeah it's 25 years old, but holy fuck we're still talking about it while most other games fall into relative obscurity

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I’m the guy you were replying to and I think Persona 5 is polished mediocrity. CT is better.

I played it for about 10 hours and then stopped because the pacing began to drag right when it seemed it should pick up.

I like how the game really makes you earn Chrono's resurrection.

>listening to rose tinted glasses nostalgia fags
>ever

Was this a bait thread? Life is too short to read all that retardation.

Isn't til the last half when all the plots come full circle that it really wows, assuming you do all side quests.

>all these seething nostalgiafags
That's when you know what you've said is correct.
I love how triggered these losers (let's be honest here, anyone here praising ct as the greatest game of all time is obviously a 30+ year old loser) get when you point out how much better P5 is than their retro shit.

You also forgot to add how much better the music and atmosphere is.

chrono trigger is better than persona 5 samefag
t. 97 zoomer

The best scene in the game is part of an endgame sidequest. I love it.

>Triggered
I see what you did there

I was thoroughly disappointed.

It has a boring combat system that is a clunky hybrid of turn-based and real-time (ATB). Enemies pose no threat and deal a fraction of the damage the player character is capable of dishing out. Abilities and spells are incredibly boring. There's only one or two abilities in the entire game that inflict a status ailment, every ability and spell simply deals damage, or heals it. Dual/triple techs are just boring variations on the same 'do tons of damage' or 'heal tons of HP' template. The ATB system only encourages mindlessly bashing the attack button as soon as possible to prevent enemies from getting hits in.

There's barely any exploration; it's a time travel game that is paradoxicallty completely on rails.

It has incredibly shallow writing. Not a single character has a distinct voice, apart from Frog's heavy-handed Ye Olde English shtick. Everyone is a cliched archetype, the rebellious princess, the geeky scientist anime girl, the noble knight suffering from a curse, etc. We don't even know a single thing about Crono, ostensibly the main character. What does he do for a living? Does he still go to school? Where did he learn swordplay? That's how barebones the narrative is. To add insult to injury, the setting doesn't make a lick of sense: Lucca, a teenage girl, invented firearms and a time machine in a pre-industrial setting, and we are supposed to take this seriously.

The multiple endings are even shallower than the overall narrative: they're either superficial variations on the same happy ending, or even worse, easter egg/joke endings. They're completely pointless and contribute nothing to the game.

Time travel is not even used in any meaningful way; instead of traveling back in time to prevent the villain from becoming a threat, the characters travel forward in time to face him at the height of his powers and beat him up. How does that even make sense?

It's competently made, but it's so cookie-cutter and by the numbers.

Seethe and cry and cope, incel samefag.

I’ve played both for the first time and honestly, Chrono Trigger is better. Much better pacing, much more fun gameplay, and it truly does feel like that you’re going on an adventure. Then again, I’m a guy who tends to prefer SMT to Persona so maybe that helps.

I hope this is pasta because it's fucking retarded
>Time travel is not even used in any meaningful way; instead of traveling back in time to prevent the villain from becoming a threat, the characters travel forward in time to face him at the height of his powers and beat him up. How does that even make sense?
really?

I love Persona 5 but you gotta be some kind of mega-level retard to be incapable of recognizing how flawlessly Chrono Trigger executed on every single level.

I've got shit to say on a lot of "masterpieces" of gaming, but Chrono Trigger isn't one of them.
It's nearly perfect.

Too easy haha

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It is pasta. I’ve seen that one floating around for a long time.

Clear bait.

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It’s really telling when CTfags can only ever talk about pacing and presentation but never the actual content. You know you have ADHD worse than zoomers when you praise a game for quickly hopping between events and story points without fleshing out anything.

Have sex

>no actual counter-argument or rebuttal
Cope

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Is this chinese food?

Unironically this

Cope

That would be a really long list, but some examples:
>Fallout 1
>Fallout 2
>Fallout: New Vegas
>Dark Souls
>Arcanum
>Baldur's Gate II
>Morrowind
>Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
>Gothic II
>Arx Fatalis
>Knights of the Old Republic
>Knights of the Old Republic II

Give it another 4 hours.

There’s ton to like about Chrono Trigger in terms of content, though.
>meaty sidequests that not only give you new equipment and weapons but more insight into the characters
>multiple endings
>fun gameplay built on party optimization that gives you tons of different ways to approach combat
>a campaign that doesn’t take too long and always had you trying out new things
>tons of fun minigames
>replay value up the ass
I played this in 2018 and still came out impressed.

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If you didn't play it when it was new you will never understand, zoomer.

No one:

Literally no one:

Lliterally not even a single soul:
OP: CHRONO TRIGGER IS A BAD GAME!

>I can't romance the girls so it's shit
>How am I supposed to identify with this antagonist if he's not in high school like me?
ftfy kiddo

except that's wrong, even zoomers (the ones who actually played it) like this game

>he didn't unlock Ayla's secret dating sequence

How do you identify with either the protagonist or antagonist in CT? A silent protagonist with no personality and an alien parasite.

t. didn't play the game and just read an article on wikipedia

I can't help you with your shit taste in gameplay, but everything you said about the story is completely wrong. Literally every character in existence is a "clichéd archetype" if you dumb down their roles, faggot. Even in Pershitna 5, you can just trivialize people like Fagker and the Phantom Thieves by calling them muh rebellious teenager archetype.
>We don't even know a single thing about Crono, ostensibly the main character
Chrono is a silent protagonist, which means he is literally supposed to be (You), whether you believe that to be a good thing or not is irrelevant right now.
>The multiple endings are even shallower than the overall narrative: they're either superficial variations on the same happy ending, or even worse, easter egg/joke endings
I'll admit I can't really blame you for not knowing about Chrono Cross (the canonical sequel), but none of the characters have good endings at all. Their lives go to complete shit shortly after the game, in case the edgelord in you wanted to hear this.
>Time travel is not even used in any meaningful way; instead of traveling back in time to prevent the villain from becoming a threat, the characters travel forward in time to face him at the height of his powers and beat him up. How does that even make sense?
This is how I know you either didn't play the game at all, or gave up after a few hours. The villain is literally acausal which means changes to the past won't affect him for shit, so you have to kill him in the very moment in which he surfaced. Why do you think the Black Omen continues to exist in the past once you've destroyed it in the present? Because you have to destroy it in the very moment it came into existence because of its acausality. This is literally explained to you unless you're a button mashing faggot who doesn't pay attention to the story and then complains the story is shit, like the rest of this faggot board.

>OP: CHRONO TRIGGER IS A BAD GAME!
That's not what he said.

The multiple endings are trash, the story is basic as fuck and only gets mildly interesting post-Zeal, the characters are one dimensional and barely have any dynamics with each other or antagonists, the experience is thematically paper thin, combat one note as fuck, etc.

It’s still a good game, but far from being as great as fanboys make it out to be.

(You)

The dynamics/interactions always annoyed me. You walk up to a boss, they have some monologue, you kill the boss, your party moves on without anyone ever saying anything. The party almost never speak to each other, the game's almost entirely exposition.

>twitter meme
>reddit spacing
You have to go back

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It was basic 25 years ago too.

The game came out fucking 24 years ago.

Nice dude you got him

So what?

That has nothing to do with things like writing and dialogue. There were plenty of games at the time that did those better. Age can only really excuse gameplay and graphics. Xenogears is 21 years old and had far better story, dialogue and characters.

>contrarian shit
>0 replies
>contrarian shit that says old game bad new game good
>1000000 replies

>This is how I know you either didn't play the game at all, or gave up after a few hours. The villain is literally acausal which means changes to the past won't affect him for shit, so you have to kill him in the very moment in which he surfaced. Why do you think the Black Omen continues to exist in the past once you've destroyed it in the present? Because you have to destroy it in the very moment it came into existence because of its acausality. This is literally explained to you unless you're a button mashing faggot who doesn't pay attention to the story and then complains the story is shit, like the rest of this faggot board.

>this level of mental gymnastics

You're just making shit up. There's no indication that Lavos is an acausal being. He lands on earth during the prehistoric era, an era you can travel to during the game. It's simply the writers being lazy and adding arbitrary restrictions to how time travel works so you can't take out Lavos before he becomes a threat.

>multiple endings
>replay value up the ass

When will this meme end?

Multiple endings don't add replayability to a game. How does a different 5 minute cutscene at the end of a game, which can take anything from 20 to 100+ hours to play through, have any significant effect on how you experience that game?

A game has true replayability when instead of just getting a different ending, you can play the game in a different way.The original Fallout is an example of a highly replyable game: every location in the game is accessible from the start and you can tackle everything in the game (including the final boss) with combat, stealth or diplomacy, or a combination of these. Deus Ex is another example: while it has a linear mission structure, it lets you tackle those missions in an enormous variety of ways.

Chrono Trigger has nothing of the sort. The game is completely on rails, with your only choice being when you want to finish the game (by traveling to Lavos), and that's only realistically a choice on a New Game+ playthrough. There isn't even any real customization, as your characters gain stats and learn skills naturally as they leveel up, and CT has the poorest ability arsenal I've ever seen in an RPG: almost every ability you can learn does just damag, there's nothing that lets you approach gameplay in a different way.

And Chrono Trigger's endings aren't even good. They're all either superficial variations on the same happy ending or fourth-wall breaking joke endings.

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You still haven't killed yourself, uh WRPG-Kun?

Based.

>There were plenty of games at the time that did those better.
>names a game that came out years later
OK tardo

this
I want some sort of true ending for killing Lavos at the Ocean Palace at the height of its power, not a fucking gag.

i love how easy you can identify people who compare 2 games who actually havent even played at least both said games.

3 years is a long time for you? Again, time has nothing to do with the quality of the writing and characters. Are new books somehow better than old books? No.

>The game is completely on rails, with your only choice being when you want to finish the game (by traveling to Lavos)
In other words, the flow of the game is entirely up to the player

What does that have to do with the flow of the game? You just decide when to end it.

>When will this meme end?

he says while posting the meme frog

Even on the SNES the Quintet trilogy are better despite those games being way less polished.

3 years is a long time in the 90s video game market. The games are a console generation apart. Though I agree that has no bearing on its quality.

No. He is spot on, the entire game is on rails. The only flow you can decide on is when it ends

Because the player has the ability to make the story however they want it to be?
There are a number of choices throughout the main story, a bevy of side quests which can change story elements including the ending, and an ending that the player can trigger at just about any time, which changes the way the story resolves

You have a brain, don't you? Try using it sometime.

Unironically calling Chrono Trigger "on rails" is one of the most genuinely retarded things I have ever seen on Yea Forums

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Lucca needs more art.

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This, Terranigma is Ludo and the other two games are pretty good too.

>Am I missing something?
Yes, taste.

I bet you thought the 3 endings in Mass Effect were awesome and added a lot of replay value

Nah bro, it's the BEST GAEM EVAR. Why? No idea. Yea Forums seems to think so though. It's decent but nowhere near as good as even SNES FF games.

is this the only jrpg with multiple endings? i cant even think of another one that does it

What does that have to do with anything
I haven't even played Mass Effect

Is the steam version still cucked?

>i cant even think of another one that does it
Get out of Yea Forums

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the ending is the only major part of the game that can be changed and most of them are gag endings anyway
the side quests only really become available at the end of the game
everything before that is a linear sequence of events that you just have to do in order - unless you feel like fighting lavos at some point, but that just ends the game early, it doesn't really change anything

I love Chrono Trigger but Deus Ex this isn't.

SMT games tend to have a lot of those.

I genuinely can't. None of the Final Fantasies do it. Dragon Quest doesn't do it.

play more jrpgs

Chrono Trigger is fairly linear, it just has great side quest and ending variety.

EVERY SINGLE TIME you play Chrono Trigger you will go to the Millennial Fair, go to 600 AD, go to Prison, go to Bad Future, go fight Magus, go to BC, go to 12,000, fight Black Omen. You cannot "make the story however you want to be" unless you're using knowledge from outside the game to end it as soon as possible while massively underpowered. You could skip Black Omen even on your first blind playthrough I guess, but nobody who doesn't know exactly what they're doing is cracking open an early Lavos kill before New Game+.

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>that just ends the game early, it doesn't really change anything
Are you thinking about what you say before you type or are you just letting your fingers dance on the keyboard and hitting submit with your eyes closed

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Nier, Star Ocean, Radiant Stories, Tactics Ogre, Valkyrie Profile, etc.

It's the same shit. A few minor differences, omg so creative

>SMT
I forgot to say actual good jRPGs. That means no Persona, no SMT, no Mother, and generally no jRPGs past 2002

Get out of Yea Forums

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>JRPGs are only Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest

nearly every SMT has done it and they usually at least have a decent amount of content in each branch too

It's functional. Inferior to the DS version but it's playable.

lmao nerds, i haven't even played the game
who's the idiot now huh?

Nier doesn't do multiple endings, brainlet. The "endings" in Nier are just milestones in the story. The word "ending" is a total misnomer. Moreover, Nier isn't a jRPG.

Lufia was better than Chrono Trigger

t. FF faggot

>Nier
>JRPG

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...

Imagine thinking an RPG made in Japan is not a Japanese RPG or JRPG for short

Like said, basically any given ATLUS title is going to have mulitple/golden endings, including non-SMT stuff like Radiant Historia.
If you count the separate campaigns (which you probably shouldn't), Fire Emblem Fates has three endings.
It isn't common, but there are examples.

Some are milestones, some are actual endings. What's your definition of JRPG?

FFX-2 and FFXIII-2 have multiple endings though.

Its foundations are basic but it had a lot of personality. The story had this sense of adventure, like an old anime, the battle system felt dynamic with no random encounters, etc. Great OST, of course. If you are not into it by now, you might as well put it down.

Nier is not an RPG.

I don't get why people can't like both P5 and Chrono Trigger. Here it always seems to be one or the other.

You weren't alive when it came out.

An accurate and well articulated post, you can tell this poster has a very big brain which will upset the brainlets here, causing them to lash out in defence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nier:_Automata
>Nier: Automata is an action role-playing game
store.steampowered.com/app/524220/NieRAutomata/
>Genre: Action, RPG
platinumgames.com/games/nier-automata
>NieR:Automata isn’t just a simple entertainment product; it’s a silky-smooth 60fps, open-world action RPG

Stop posting anytime

Because P5 is a legitimately shit game.

West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.

>insult OP

OP is too gay to feel insulted.

>explain that Chrono Trigger was made before he was born, and introduced a lot of features that now appear in all games, like combat taking place in the same screen that exploration is taking place, and prenamed saved games.

I don't know how to do that.

>The story had this sense of adventure, like an old anime, the battle system felt dynamic with no random encounters, etc. Great OST, of course
There are other JRPGs like this, but they don’t get nearly the praise Chrono Trigger gets despite excelling even further in certain areas.

I think the reason so many people like it so much is because of how inoffensive it is on a surface level, while other JRPGs are pretty flawed and easy to see as such right off the bat.

meanwhile modern games that feel the need to be constantly spewing pointless dialog annoy me far more. At least if you err on the side of brevity, you actually get to play the game more. If you err on the side of too much verbosity I get bored, shut it off, and never return.

>WRPG-Kun
>Big brain
He doesn't even play those games he criticizes.
Actually, after nearly a year of his shitposts I'm not even sure he played most of the WRPGs he uses as examples because he lacks really basic metaknowledge about them, the fact that he also thinks immersive sims are RPGs is pretty embarassing, but then again, most neckbeards on Yea Forums do.

No. The game is simply overrated.

If you aren't having fun by the point you get dual-skills, just drop it. You just might hate video games.

>err on the side of brevity, you actually get to play the game more.
Something Chrono Trigger doesn't do.

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>just because it was innovative you must suck its dick in 2019
Reminder to stop posting any time soon.

You're mom is overrated.

none of you are on my level, I finished Ultima 2, which is the game that the CT devs ripped off (and improved upon) when creating CT

at least it doesn't have retarded writing. it has arguably the most fun story/characters out of any JRPG.

>excelling even further in certain areas
Chrono Trigger gets the praise it does because it excels in ALL areas.

There are games that do something better than CT did, maybe multiple things.
But there still isn't a game that is so flawlessly executed in every way like Chrono Trigger. It's the complete package, and that's why we're still talking about it over two decades later.

You haven’t addressed any of the points in that post. You getting bored by more words isn’t an argument.

>Imagine thinking an RPG made in Japan is not a Japanese RPG or JRPG for short

there are morons who think the Soulsborne games are not JRPGs because they use a western aesthetic

4 hours for an RPG is pretty fucking short my man

>Soulsborne
First off, >are not JRPGs
They're not. Their design is firmly rooted in WRPGs, similarly Undertale's design is heavily rooted in JRPGs.

Read the thread, there are very few areas it excels in compared to even JRPGs of the 90s. It just has way less flaws.

>Chrono Trigger gets the praise it does because it excels in ALL areas.
Not really, but I'll give you that it does look good compared to most SNES games, everything else outside visuals and music is subpar even for its time, especially for its platform.

Chrono Trigger gets the praise it does because it exceeds on all areas and did so 25 years ago. Yes there are other jRPGs that do it now, but it's too late. Just like shooters dont get praised for impressive physics anymore, while Half-Life 2 does get that praise. It was the first. It paved the way for everyone else.

How do you figure that? I can name countless RPGs with fewer than thirty minutes of cutscenes, since the games never arbitrarily strip control away from the player.

>there are very few areas it excels in
Yeah, sorry, but the opinions of retards on Yea Forums don't overturn the undeniable truth of a timeless classic

>First off, how to invalidate an "argument" in one sentence.

then name them, if you can

>I can name countless RPGs with fewer than thirty minutes of cutscenes
Oh, I'd love to see this.

>the undeniable truth of a timeless classic
What truth?
Please tell me how CT excels at anything and do make comparisons with other SNES games of its time.

>there are morons who think the Soulsborne games are not JRPGs because they use a western aesthetic

>you create your own character and assign their stats (typical of wrpgs, but something almost non-existent in jrpgs, where you typically play as a pre-defined character)
>uses a stamina system (a common feature in wrpgs since the 80's, even elder scrolls had it decades before dark souls, but far less common in jrpgs)
>uses a vancian system for spellcasting derived from western tabletop rpgs such as d&d
>uses a classless system (common in wrpgs like fallout and elder scrolls, but almost non-existent in jrpgs)
>story is primarily told through gameplay, like many other wrpgs and in sharp contrast to jrpgs which typically feature hours of non-interactive cutscenes)
>an emphasis on non-linear exploration (again, common in wrpgs, almost non-existent in jrpgs)
>enemies are pulled straight from western rpgs (e.g. mindflayers, mimics, myconids, etc.)
>armor changes your appearance (again, common in wrpgs, almost non-existent in jrpgs)
>you can kill npcs (again, common in wrpgs, non-existent in jrpgs)
>combat has more in common with old wrpgs like severance: blade of darkness than it does with anything else in the jrpg genre
>many other gameplay mechanics and features it shares with wrpgs

But sure, the only thing western about Soulsborne is the aesthetic.

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>the undeniable truth of a timeless classic
Why should anyone care about meaningless things like that?

half life is an interesting comparison, because just like CT there is absolutely no branching or decision making whatsoever, and yet somehow HL is praised as an 'intelligent' game or somehow innovating, instead of what it was, which was simplifying shooters down to the level of a one-way corridor pop-up book, so that these types of simplified diversions could be sold to the people that are posting in this thread

I understand that CT is no longer great as a 'game' but it was a part of my youth, so its always going to seem amazing to me, in a way that metrosexual sweater simulator 5 with the endless dialogue action never will

Yup. And it"s only 20 hours; these are the reasons why it's so popular.

No one fucking cares if Xenogears AKA "third of the game is objectively unfinished" has better writing than CT. CT is a solid 8 to 9 across all areas, while being a very short game for the genre. I get people not liking it, but not being able to figure out why it's a classic is baffling.

Are you really retarded enough to believe that Undertale is a JRPG solely because it's "similar" to one? If you are then holy shit.... You are a faggot.

>and do make comparisons with other SNES games of its time.
You know something can be good without having to be compared to other things, right

You're just trapping me into the classic Yea Forums shtick of "nuh uh, because I like Other Game better"

I've played this game before.

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Morrowind
Fallout 1/2
Bloodborne
VtMB
Planescape: Torment

You're nearly 25 years too late

>Chrono Trigger has no interesting characters and barely any character development
WHat in the actual living fuck

Aside from the combat system and the time travel it was a very generic JRPG. I enjoyed Terranigma more than CT.

you should really avoid posting the 'I do not play video games elitist starter pack'
its beyond pitiful how many of you cannot name any of the thousands of great games that have been created over the decades, but you know the 'la mulana black rim glasses list' by heart

All you’re doing here is proving that its lack of obvious flaws made it more popular.

>You know something can be good without having to be compared to other things, right
Things do not exist in a magical vacuum, quality is quite literally decided by comparison.
You said it excels in something, you're expected to actually support this opinion since you're the one comparing it to other games to being with, but it seems you can't.
>I've played this game before.
And you lost it hard given how you're running away with your tail between your legs when it comes to actually make a proper argument.
Which means CT is actually a very mediocre game hyped by a bunch of frothing idiots who don't know any better.

>P5 isn't better than Chrono Trigge-

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most stupid people who familiarize themselves with the actraiser games prefer the last and worst one, because its got the most pretend-smartness

You can spin my words all you want. I would rather use: Great game across ALL areas.

Stay deluded I guess

>>The story had this sense of adventure, like an old anime, the battle system felt dynamic with no random encounters, etc. Great OST, of course
>There are other JRPGs like this,
Are there any where the characters aren't primarily 10 year old girls?

>literally the same generic attack animation followed by a 2deep4u quote that could be written by a 14 year old
>good

The absolute state of Pershitnafags.

There's a difference between "excelling" at things and "not sucking" at things.
The thing with Chrono Trigger is that it isn't an annoying JRPG to play. It's a short game. It has a small cast of party members but it gives enough attention to them. It has better combat mechanics than many JRPGs that used the classic turn-based system (including ATB). Fights are not random, and you can avoid them. The translation was good, and by that I mean someone who didn't know better wouldn't be able to tell something was wrong. The graphics and music are great.

I don't know what else to say. But it is one thing to say "Chrono Trigger excels at everything" and another to say "Chrono Trigger doesn't suck at anything". Because if I analyze it with a finer comb, then

1. It's still your stereotypical JRPG cast.
2. It's still a very easy game.
3. It has barely any customization, which is cancer in an RPG.
4. The translation is good, but it is still typical JRPG writing for kids and teenagers.

This is the part where people have to keep in mind that sucking at something doesn't mean the game is automatically shit, and thus it is perfectly fine for a game to do a few things badly if it genuinely EXCELS at other things. And in the case of Chrono Trigger, the only aspects it genuinely excels at are graphics and music. Nothing more, nothing less. Hardly the elements you want a game to excel at, then again, JRPG fans gonna JRPG and prefer graphics and music over proper gameplay.

>WRPGS
>better than Chrono trigger
Based retard

I didn't play ActRaiser 3, tho. I played Terranigma, the first and only game in its series.

Hell
I didn't even read these posts until now and yet you can see they mentioned most of the things I did

Name me a JRPG which came out before Chrono Trigger with better gameplay.

Holy shit you cannot be serious
>if it isn't a literal movie file, it isn't a cutscene!

And so much for "countless games"
Maybe you think six is a very large number and find it difficult to grasp that so many games exist
But I can count up to and beyond six quite easily

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SMT II

>

Non-meme answers, please.

>It has better combat mechanics than many JRPGs that used the classic turn-based system (including ATB)
No.
>JRPG fans gonna JRPG and prefer graphics and music over proper gameplay.
>All X fans like Y
Don't do this.

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t. Hasn't played many JRPGs
CT is the jack of all trades, master of none. There are many JRPGs that are masters of almost all trades, retards at 1 or 2, and this makes them much better than Chrono Trigger. Like Valkyrie Profile, or SMT III or IV, etc.

>there are morons who think the Soulsborne games are not JRPGs because they use a western aestheth
Soulsbourne games are not JRPGs because they are not RPGs. If you squint REALLY hard and have a small brain, you can get away with calling them ARPG. But mostly they are action or action-adventure games with exploration.

Nostalgiafags. It's an okay game with a flawed sequel that shits on its legacy and that's it.

better is a bit vague, but there was nothing even close to the amount of new concepts in it, at least on the japanese console end, FF5, DQ5, PS4 were close, but still used the same gameplay design
lots of CRPGs were better already, but not as nice to look at

>There are people who unironically think SMT is better than CT.

All of this is objectively true.
Prove him wrong if you can.
1. That a short ending you have to play 20 hours of the game for to get to adds "replayability".
2. And that Chrono Trigger's customization isn't awful.

it's far more rare for a game to not suck at anything, than to excel at anything.

>better is a bit vague, but there was nothing even close to the amount of new concepts in it
What would those "new concepts" in Chrono Trigger be exactly?

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>t there was nothing even close to the amount of new concepts in it,
What new concepts?
>Prove him wrong
He was already wrong the moment he pretended Deus Ex is an RPG.

>positioning mattered
>non-random encounters
>dual and triple attacks
>unique attacks for every team composition

Again, zoomers will gloss over how revolutionary this game was.

For what purpose? I'm sure your answer will be "you have shit taste", to which I'll reply "it doesn't matter, because JRPG gameplay up to Chrono Trigger was awful". That is ultimately what counts: Chrono Trigger was better than bad, but that doesn't mean it "excels" at combat.

But since you ask: Final Fantasy V's job system was far more interesting and added far more replayability. Guess what: it was boring as fuck too and I never bothered finishing the game.
user did you read my post? Because
>CT is the jack of all trades, master of none
was my conclusion. Simply a good game all around, which doesn't mean "great". Only non-flawed.

do your homework
I dont even care about the troll or the game or whatever, but if you dont know the big list of stuff that CT did first, then why would anyone talk to you at all

Same thing hapoend with me. It's a solid RPG with god tier music but I don't see the so called "masterpiece" it was being hyped up as.

>Name me a JRPG which came out before Chrono Trigger with better gameplay.
All of the SNES Final Fantasy games are better in some ways. The combat systems are virtually identical, except with 4 or 5 party members and without CT's little 2D field gimmick (which is fine, but not incredibly game-changing). The tradeoff is use of random encounters, smaller sprites, and slightly more of a nerd-friendly approach to abilities and equipment without going full WRPG autistic.

Non-random encounters weren't invented by Chrono Trigger. Earthbound predates Chrono Trigger, and Earthbound wasn't the first either.

>it's far more rare for a game to not suck at anything, than to excel at anything.
It really is. This is where we ask ourself: do we prefer a game that is good at everything, or a game that genuine excels at many things while dropping the ball on others?

My favorite games all are heavily flawed one way or another, but I still consider them much better than Chrono Trigger. It's a personal opinion so please
>post them
posters stay away.

Final Fantasy I was better

>He was already wrong the moment he pretended Deus Ex is an RPG.

>Chrono Trigger: no customization of role-playing of any kind, e.g. Crono can only use swords and he learns abilities and gains stats naturally as he levels up
>an RPG

>Deus Ex: tons of different approaches are possible, you can customize JC down to every facet of gameplay: pistols, rifles, melee, lockpicking, hacking, movement and jumping, etc.
>not an RPG

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>He was already wrong the moment he pretended Deus Ex is an RPG.
Interesting, why would this be the case?

fpwp

it gets good 30 hours in

Well, not everyone is conditioned to like anime shit. If we speak uniqueness, SMT II has the whole monster persuading/recruting/breeding thing, unique setting with mythological undertones woven with sci-fi, more mature story overall I guess.

>Am I missing something?
Soul

I seriously think it’s just people that dislike JRPGs overall that prefer games that don’t suck at anything at the expense of them not excelling or being interesting in some way. They just can’t handle the flaws associated with JRPGs to appreciate the really good stuff.

>press button to select your ending

>Western shit thats just D&D with a different filter
You fucking brainlets need to go play actual D&D, CRPG's are absolute dog shit compared to those.

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>All you’re doing here is proving that its lack of obvious flaws made it more popular.
there are a lot of points along these lines, but to sum up:

1. CT is pretty close to flawless as a JRPG.
2. Some of that "flawlessness" is achieved by limiting ambitions and experimentation, which counts against a "Greatest Game Ever" competition. But, still, flawless is extremely difficult to achieve even with more modest ambitions.
3. It is, nevertheless, a competent and fleshed out game. While it might not have the depth of some other JRPGs, it's also not braindead shallow. There's at least some depth there.

>dual and triple attacks
>unique attacks for every team composition

Phantasy Star 4 came out in 1993

What does that have to do with whether the game is an RPG or not?

ITT: zoomzooms reenact fox and grapes with the golden era of JRPGs

This game isn't for cumbrained children like you. You literally grew up after games went to shit and have irrational expectations for "content" and zero imagination. Games in the 90's had to contend with limitations to both graphics and memory causing devs to intentionally leave things to the player's imagination. That would be a huge problem today, but back when children weren't conditioned to be literal sociopaths we were able to immerse ourselves in whatever media we got and build an amazing story/world around it ourselves. You children have no idea what that means thanks to your uncanny valley-level graphics and cinematic game design. You literally lack the mechanisms to enjoy what we enjoyed. Go play something else.

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>positioning mattered
Not in any meaningful sense.

The vast majority of abilities in CT still target either a single enemy/ally or all enemies/allies like in say, Final Fantasy,

Your character's inability to move means you can't take advantage of enemy positioning like you can in other rpgs.

Your character's inability to move also greatly reduces the scope of tactics. In other rpgs, you might want to spread out characters to prevent them from all being struck by an enemy's area of effect attack. Or you might have to make a sacrifice: for instance, if one of your party members is in close proximity to the enemy, and attacking them would mean also damaging your own ally through friendly fire.

Even these basic tactical options are absent from CT. There is no friendly fire, and AoE's can't be positioned manually.

Enemies can technically move, but they do so extremely sporadically and are just motionless 99% of the time.

So while CT might technically have an aspect of positioning it does not utilize that in any meaningful way, so much so that it ends up being even shallower than the front/back row system of other jrpgs.

>dual and triple attacks
>unique attacks for every team composition
Phantasy Star 4 did this before CT, and besides, there's nothing worth praising about CT's dual/triple techs. They all boil down to boring nukes that either do tons of damage or heal the party for full or whatever. There's no interesting tactical considerations here whatsovever.

>Again, zoomers will gloss over how revolutionary this game was.

>basic RPG features that had been present in RPGs years before CT came out
>revolutionary

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DnD is trash tier tabletop RPG. FATAL, Hybrid or Kill Puppies For Satan easily blow it out of the water.

I'm all in for a game that excels at things at the cost of some flaws. But by the admission of JRPG fans, JRPGs excel at
>story
>characters
>music
>gameplay
Whereas my opinion is that
>story is too anime
>characters are too anime
>music is not something I'm interested in
>gameplay is not the RPG gameplay I'm looking for
I like games like Nocturne, Dark Souls, Vagrant Story and Final Fantasy Tactics. All four JRPGs, but with a drastic shift in tone compared to the average JRPG. If those four were the standard for JRPGs, Japan would be making my favorite RPGs no doubt.

Yup, I'm thinking this post is based.

Why in the fuck do people expect god tier writing in an SNES jrpg?
It was never made to be some kind of higher artform, it was made as a fun journey and it does a pretty damn good job at it
The pacing is great, the characters each have pretty good development throughout the story (except maybe Ayla that's just sorta there) and it have a stellar soundtrack
The character combo thing with the gameplay is pretty fun but beside that well it's just your standard turn based jrpg
Doesn't need anything else for it to become memorable

I agree that Chrono Trigger is a good game. I just don’t think it’s a great one.

Deus Ex is a good action game with customizable character traits and basic dialogues, but it's hardly an RPG even in a sense JRPGs are RPGs.

And yet
I would argue that the game play is actually more fun

Based and also correct.

Dark Souls is a WRPG.

Deus Ex is both mechanically and thematically an RPG.

1. Your stats dictate your ability at combat and at solving the different obstacles (computers, hacking, surviving under water) the game throws at you.
2. The game revolves around your decision as a player to tackle obstacles as you see fit using your different skills.
3. You are able to create your own JC Denton with his strengths and weaknesses.
4. Last but not least, it gives your character a voice, as it lets you pick which ending do you want in a way that defines who your own JC Denton is.

Congratulations though, I never thought the day I'd see someone call Deus Ex "not an RPG". That it comes from someone who claims JRPGs are even more RPGs than Deus Ex is just the cherry on top.

I like CT because is simple, efficient and pragmatic in the execution, you know who is the antagonist, and you travel across time trying to find a way to stop him, each character in the party has their own arc, there is enough side content, it does not require too much grind, it has the balance for a game.
Not every J/WRPG needs a complex plot with backstabs and philosophical themes, sometimes simple is good, hero meets villain, defeats him, and saves the world.

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>Non-random encounters weren't invented by Chrono Trigger. Earthbound predates Chrono Trigger, and Earthbound wasn't the first either.
Earthbound enemies will spawn/despawn as soon as they move slightly off-screen, so they're effectively the same thing as random encounters.

The tecs are cool looking.

It's a JRPG. "JRPG" is not a subgenre, it's just a useful umbrella term because most JRPGs aren't like western RPGs at all.

But is that good enough to be widely considered one of the greatest of all time and have your opinion shut down if you disagree?

Dark Souls design is far more in line with WRPGs than JRPGs. I'll refer you to .

Yes.

>absolutely despise chrono trigger because it's a legitimately shit game
>"hurr you're just being contrarian"

...

Chrono Trigger is ok but it isn't like the best game ever like some people make it out to be. It does some cool thing here and there but I feel like the game overall is outdone even by some rpgs that came before it. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that people praise the game so much though. The more people think the game is a masterpiece, the more the value of the game goes up, and I still have an old Snes copy of the game lying around. Feels good owning things that are higher value than when you bought it.

I recently recommended CT to some friends. These who played it thought it's a modern game, because it's pixel art, just like Terraria or Stardew Valley, but with better animation. One even said it's copying plot structure of Mass Effect.

>There's a difference between "excelling" at things and "not sucking" at things.

Okay, but there are plenty of jrpgs that achieve this much better than CT. Lufia 2 for example which came out in the same year has:

>far better level design than CT, with actual exploration and puzzle solving, and enemies can be avoided easier than in CT by stunning them out of combat
>better combat, due to sticking to tried and true turnbased rather than the abomination that is ATB, and having much more variety in abilities than CT
>far better written characters, with some surprisingly adult developments
>better music (at least IMO)

So why is CT so revered?

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I don't care, you can criticize all you want, but you can't deny is a good game and was executed well for the genre.

>the abomination that is ATB
not liking ATB doesn't mean you have good taste.

You can dodge them, you can attack from behind. You see them coming. They're not random in any way.

I'm not saying I disagree with how Dark Souls plays. I'm saying that I disagree with saying a game is a "western RPG" just because it plays like them.

Then the terms are completely meaningless.

I honestly do believe it’s a good game, but the level of praise it gets simply baffles me.

>have your opinion shut down if you disagree?
cry more

>Okay, but there are plenty of jrpgs that achieve this much better than CT. Lufia 2 for example which came out in the same year
>So why is CT so revered?
I don't know, user. I don't revere CT. I also suspect it has to do with SQUARE and the "Dream Team". Sometimes those things that have nothing to do with how good a game is causes reviewers and fans to overrate their games.

Pretty much like a nobody painting canvas, but if a wildly popular artist does the exact same painting then the art world loses their collective minds.

You are contemplating Chrono as if it was a game that came out today. And it is still a great game even with that view.

>not liking ATB doesn't mean you have good taste.

What does ATB achieve that couldn't be done by a normal turn-based system? Nothing

Conversely, ATB adds a ton of negative things:

It's incredibly slow. In a normal turn-based game, you input your commands and they are executed. But in an ATB game, you first have to wait for the characters' ATB bars to slowly fill before you can input commands, and after they are executed, you have to wait again for them to fill before you can input new commands, over and over.

This artificial time pressure also means the optimal strategy in 99.9% of battles is to mindlessly mash the (auto-)attack button as fast as possible before enemies can get any hits in.

The place the game was made in tells you absolutely fucking nothing about the game itself. "WRPG" and "JRPG" are design philosophies, you know exactly what the fuck they mean.

Like I said earlier, "JRPG" is a good umbrella term because most JRPGs aren't like western RPGs at all. It is clear that when someone says "JRPGs are shit" they are not talking about Dark Souls.

Said generalizations are used all the time outside of videogames, but you don't see people say "well this certain TV show I like ACTUALLY isn't a TV show because all TV shows suck!".

>if you dont know the big list of stuff that CT did first
Educate me then, because as somebody who did actually play the vast majority of NES and SNES libraries of JRPG I sure want to know what CT supposedly did first, outside of maybe NG+.
>Sim game
>RPG
I bet you think MUH CHOICES are what makes an RPG.
No action based game is an RPG to begin with, if Deus Ex or System Shock are RPGs to you so are Guilty Gear or CoD.

>"WRPG" and "JRPG" are design philosophies, you know exactly what the fuck they mean.
"W" and "J" are completely redundant here. That's because there are two schools of thought: RPGs inspired by D&D, and simplified RPGs. The former where born in the West because how could it not be born there? These were people who loved D&D and recreated them on their PLATO mainframe. The latter were born on Japan because of consoles and simplification for the market.

But to say "WRPG" and "JRPG" are genres is stupid. And it's even more stupid to say Dark Souls is a WRPG and Undertale a JRPG.

The only western thing about it is the cultural aesthetic it is inspired from, but that has nothing to do with with western game design. It’s game design is japanese, from the combat, to the level design, to the colour design, to the environment design, etc. It takes more from castlevania and older action rpgs /Zelda than JRPGs, but it is certainly not western.

Lufia 2 is a stellar and underrated game, but it lacks the same storytelling mechanisms that CT had such as animations, interaction with the environment, and etc. It was still a great story and the puzzles were god tier, but a boy playing this in the 90's is going to have an easier time inserting themselves into the role of Chrono than Maxim.

shame about the remake, though

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>"WRPG" and "JRPG" are design philosophies

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>I bet you think MUH CHOICES are what makes an RPG.
I gave you a list of what makes Deus Ex an RPG and you had to sperg out. Unsurprisingly, if I may add.
>No action based game is an RPG to begin with
Well that's where you are wrong kiddo. But please elaborate on how Guilty Gear and CoD are on the same level as Deus Ex when it comes to being RPGs.

Its game design is western. In fact, the game that it ripped off from, Severance, was a western developed game.

The most important thing is that Dark souls is not a fucking RPG. when you play it, it plays exactly like an action game or maybe action-adventure and almost nothing like an RPG. The only RPG-like thing that happens during actual gameplay is getting experience.
>uses a stamina system (a common feature in wrpgs since the 80's, even elder scrolls had it decades before dark souls, but far less common in jrpgs)
Mike Tyson's Punch-Out used a stamina system also. More relevantly, the stamina system is blatantly designed in accordance with the action gameplay not any kind of abstract tactical RPG system.
>uses a vancian system for spellcasting derived from western tabletop rpgs such as d&d
Plain Silliness. The Dark Souls system is not much at all like D&D meanwhile use of re-chargeable ammunition fits well with action game designs. It's similar by coincidence, not intent.
>uses a classless system
Completely irrelevant.
>story is primarily told through gameplay, like many other wrpgs
The story is told like an action-adventure or action game. Such as Legend of Zelda or Ninja Gaiden. It's not told at all like a WRPG. WRPG stories are told more like novels or tabletop modules with lengthy and elaborate descriptions and wall-of-text dialog. Dark Souls NPCs are sprinkled among the action levels like you might find them in an action game. Lots of action games had vendors and hint-givers and such. Even shoot-em-ups like Gun.Smoke have vendors.

>But sure, the only thing western about Soulsborne is the aesthetic.
If you stop looking at ONLY JRPGs, then you'll find that nearly everything present in Soulsbourne games are present in other Japanese games.

>Dark Souls design is far more in line with WRPGs than JRPGs
Dark Souls design is far more in line with Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and Zelda than either WRPG or JRPG.
The only reason people think Souls is an RPG is because it has XP and stats.

Thanks for ignoring the details and implications of my post. Go look up the first action rpgs and the inspirations behind demons/dark souls. It’s all japanese.

Dragon Quest, one of the first JRPGs, was inspired by Wizardry, which in turn was an attempt to adapt D&D to a computer game

All computer RPGs in some way trace back to D&D
The only thing that differentiates them is the complexity of their roleplay mechanics, the simplest of which intend only to replicate the core gameplay mechanics of classic D&D (stats, levels, equipment etc.)

if you were old enough to know anything about videogame history, you'd know that JRPG and WRPG did indeed represent different design philosophies. They were each a different take on computer RPGs, heavily influenced by a variety of factors.

It's shit. Kys

>The most important thing is that Dark souls is not a fucking RPG. when you play it, it plays exactly like an action game or maybe action-adventure and almost nothing like an RPG. The only RPG-like thing that happens during actual gameplay is getting experience.
And character creation.
With classes. And abilities.
And stats. Which you assign on character creation, and whenever you level up, which let you define your character.
And your character's proficiency with the different weapons and equipment found in game.
Which, when you think about it, is literally how Wizardry works, one of the seminal western RPGs.

I'm not arguing against "Dark Souls isn't a WRPG" because I believe that
1. Dark Souls being called a WRPG is retarded.
2. You can't simply call a game "western" just because you see similarities with western games.

But is Dark Souls an RPG? Yes. Definitely. No doubt about it. An Action RPG, to be specific, but an RPG nonetheless.

>I gave you a list of what makes Deus Ex an RPG
No you didn't, unless you're WRPG-Kun samefagging.
Again, choices or "builds" aren't what defines RPGs, otherwise even something as simple as the first Street Fighter can be considered an RPG.
>Well that's where you are wrong kiddo
RPGs inherently work by abstraction, action based games don't, Deus Ex is an action based game and isn't designed nor fucking works by abstraction, which means it's fundamentally not an RPG but a simulation game, in fact it is literally called an immersive sim game.
Screech all you want, but this is the truth of the matter.

Came to post this.

I'm 31, I played more RPGs than you, both virtual and TT, you're literally talking out of your ass.

The PS1 version is the only half decent port of the game

>The only thing that differentiates them is the complexity of their roleplay mechanics, the simplest of which intend only to replicate the core gameplay mechanics of classic D&D (stats, levels, equipment etc.)
Which begs the question: how much simplification is required before an RPG becomes a JRPG?

I'm not prepared to answer that question because I think the idea of "WRPG" and "JRPG" is dumb. Truth is Wizardry absolutely pales in comparison to Fallout:
1. No proper dialogue.
2. No proper quests.
3. No proper ability to solve obstacles aside from blasting everything to hell.
4. You can't even develop your character how you please, as stats and spells are gained and lost upon level up.

Had Fallout being the first western RPG ever made, and Wizardry had been Japanese, people would have called it a "JRPG". Ironically, Wizardry is extremely popular in Japan.

>I think the idea of "WRPG" and "JRPG" is dumb
Me too

>Mike Tyson's Punch-Out used a stamina system also.
How is that relevant? We are talking about rpgs. The fact is that stamina systems are common in wrpgs, but almost non-existent in jrpgs prior to dark souls.

>Plain Silliness. The Dark Souls system is not much at all like D&D

>you can only attune a set amount of spells
>as you level up, you can increase how many spells you can attune
>the only way to replenish spells is by resting
This is EXACTLY how D&D's Vancian magic system works. Sure, Dark Souls has some quirks of its own, but so does every other game that was inspired by D&D.

>The story is told like an action-adventure or action game. Such as Legend of Zelda or Ninja Gaiden.
Zelda games have a huge story focus. In most Zelda games, you have to sit through hours of tutorials and cutscenes before the game proper begins. The storytelling method of Dark Souls is more similar to older western dungeon crawler rpgs, which also had some npcs sprinkled in the dungeons spouting cryptic hints.

This is nothing new for FromSoft, they were making these kinds of games decades ago, before Chrono Trigger even came out even.

>But to say "WRPG" and "JRPG" are genres is stupid.
it's not stupid at all.
People use genre terms because they are useful. You can say "WRPG" or "JRPG" and immediately begin to make some assumptions about the game and what it's like. They are high-level, general classifications.
>And it's even more stupid to say Dark Souls is a WRPG
Well yes because it's stupid to say Dark Souls is an RPG in the first place. you're pushing the term "RPG" way past it's practical use.
>That's because there are two schools of thought: RPGs inspired by D&D, and simplified RPGs.
Yes, and these differing schools of thought produced a large quantity of games that are (a) distinct from each other and (b) similar to its peers while (c) both sharing obvious traits with the umbrella classification "RPG"

OP this game is shit, people defend it because it has a charming storyline, but IT IS NOT AN RPG. It is basically a visual novel with unlosable battle segments. Way easier than FF4 JPN for example. Fuck Chrono Trigger.

The WRPG/JRPG antagonism comes entirely from butthurt american neckbeards.

>Dark Souls design is far more in line with Castlevania: Symphony of the Night

>3d action rpg where you can't even jump is more in line with 2d side-scroller

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>No you didn't, unless you're WRPG-Kun samefagging.
I did. Here: >Again, choices or "builds" aren't what defines RPGs, otherwise even something as simple as the first Street Fighter can be considered an RPG.
Again, explain how. Don't just namedrop games and say "well then this is an RPG too!!".
Read my list and notice how Deus Ex does everything RPGs do. The only difference is that it has action based combat, though it still uses stats to define your effectiveness in combat.
>RPGs inherently work by abstraction
Deus Ex has abstraction, though: the abstraction of its stats which represent your abilities. Just like Dark Souls.
>but a simulation game, in fact it is literally called an immersive sim game.
Dumb marketing speak which no one has ever been able to define.

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I just watched a Filipino girl play it on twitch for over 10 hours straight, and she loved it. She was giggling and smiling at every moment. Her favorite characters are Frog, Ayla, and Robo.
She thought Ozzie's antics were funny
She got hyped during Magus's boss battle, and actually tried her best. She was amused by Ayla's idle sprite on the overworld map. She couldn't stop playing for hours, even when no one was chatting.(I was lurking, not saying anything)
She just got to the part where Lavos fell, and she stopped. Zeal is about to blow her mind.

Moral of the story: Everyone calling the game overrated are just jaded and bitter.

>How is that relevant? We are talking about rpgs
It's relevant because Dark Souls mostly is not an RPG. It's an action game with a few minor RPG-like qualities. Most of your confusion would go away once you understood this.
>This is EXACTLY how D&D's Vancian magic system works. Sure, Dark Souls has some quirks of its own, but so does every other game that was inspired by D&D.
D&D's system has lots of complexity, with spells being divided into tiers and spells being memorizable on a per-tier basis.
It's not that Souls' system has quirks, it's that it's far more basic. It's a simple "ammunition system" which is yes, technically what "Vancian" means. But when designing any game this is a very obvious way to implement special abilities and there's nothing especially D&D-like about Souls version of it. You could maybe claim that the Vancian system influenced EVERY GAME EVER or something but at that point you're not making a claim that Souls was inspired by WRPGs.

Aged like milk

>Zelda games have a huge story focus.
Not pic-related or ALTTP.
Both these games have random NPCs that just show up in the middle of the world for no reason other than that's where the game wants Link to find them. Zelda 1 literally has old men hanging out in Labyrinths. ALTTP has the old man on the mountain, the random monkey that opens the door for you, the former thief who unlocks chests, etc. Why the hell is that guy just sitting there next to a sign, the entire game? That is not an RPG-style NPC. That's an action-game style NPC, which is what Dark Souls and (pre-Ocarina) Zelda have.

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I played it half way through and didn't enjoy it as well...

But that doesn't mean its a bad game, it means its just not for me.

Dark Souls is not an RPG.

>Again, explain how
Are you dumb?
You can literally select different "loadouts" to suit your playstyle.
>Read my list and notice how Deus Ex does everything RPGs do.
Most of those points are either wrong or fallacious, your stats for instance mean fuck all in Deus Ex.
So does a game like CoD or your average Ace Combat, do you consider them RPGs?
Is MoH: Underground an RPG because you can choose stealth or non lethal approaches to complete levels?
Tony Hawks Pro Skater 2 also has a complex stat system coupled with customization and multiple ways to complete a level, no sane man would call it an RPG, but apparently it is one to you.
>Deus Ex has abstraction
No it fucking doesn't, that's the equivalent of saying that Super Mario World uses abstraction because Luigi's fall speed is slower than Mario and it's a hard stat difference, that would coincidentially also make SMW an RPG by your inane reasoning.
Character stats don't decide fuck all in Deus Ex, your mechanical inputs do 90% of the work, hell the game's endings aren't even related to how you actually play through the game.
>Dumb marketing speak
Can say the same for Deus Ex being called an RPG, hell that's the biggest reason this recurring shitposting threads are thing.

Dude i tried to get back into this game but just fucking can't. Literally a game for nostalgiafags.

CT is my favorite game of all time and i'm 24 buds.

If this is a troll, kudos. If not, also congratulations on your opinion.

Dark Souls doesn't have:
1. A real roleplaying world. It's entirely an action world. A real RPG doesn't just drop a random NPC vendor in a swamp with no explanation. Even dungeon crawlers usually have some plausible explanation for NPC placement.
2. Anything remotely like tactical, turn-based combat. ARPGs are already barely RPGs because of this, and the more sophisticated they come the less reasonable it is to call any of them RPGs. To be considered an RPG without turn-based combat, you need to really nail the other RPG elements, which Dark Souls doesn't do.
3. Stats are primarily serve as a means for enabling build variety in a weapons-based action game. Unlike an RPG, where the point of stats is to roleplay as a character with those traits and make tactical and strategic decisions based on those stats, stats in Dark Souls just decide whether you'll be using dex weapons or strength weapons or magic, AFTER you've had a chance to play the game a bit to see how it works.
>is literally how Wizardry works, one of the seminal western RPGs.
Yes, but Wizardry is literally a best-effort attempt at creating something resembling an RPG on a computer. It emphasizes the dungeon crawl, AND it has turn-based combat which Dark Souls does not.

I was playing RPGs before your mother got knocked up.

>playing chrono trigger for the first time in 2019
you're an underaged little faggot whose puny mind can't comprehend things created before the 2000s

you'll understand when you turn 30.

>You can literally select different "loadouts" to suit your playstyle.
And? That doesn't make for an RPG.
>Most of those points are either wrong or fallacious, your stats for instance mean fuck all in Deus Ex.
Opinion discarded from here on.

Ok here's a little game:

>List 1
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest V
Final Fantasy IV
Final Fantasy V
Breath of Fire
Breath of Fire II
Super Mario RPG

>List 2
Pool of Radiance
Champions of Krynn
Dark Sun
Betrayal at Krondor
Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate 2

Is there any game, in either list, that is more similar to Dark Souls than it is to every other game in its own list?

You're not missing anything it's just aged poorly, it was amazing at the time and boring by today's standards, the PS1 Final Fantasy games have aged a lot better because of pre-rendered backgrounds and much better art and music.

Am I the only one that tears up a bit listening to Corridors of Time?

... No?

Although, to be honest, I haven't heard of anything on the second list besides Baldur's Gate

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1. This is an extremely arbitrary point that makes no sense. Dark Souls' world makes sense in the context of its setting, which is everything we can ask of it.
2. Your second point is also arbitrary. Turn-based combat was a genuine limitation of taletop RPGs, because to think of action RPGs in the context of tabletop would be impossible. The only thing that matters is that stats decide the effectiveness of your actions, and Dark Souls fits that to a t.
3. There's hardly any roleplaying in Wizardry, and by this I mean the literal term over the mechanical term. What matters is how the mechanics work and the agency the player has over them.
4. I disagree with your statement about Wizardry. Fallout is simply much better.

Super Mario RPG is the Dark Souls of timed hits

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this . Go play Cross instead since it's way better.

Nope. That's because every single game in that list is not an Action RPG.

Even something as basic as Secret of Mana in List 1 or Morrowind in List 2 would instantly make it a candidate for similarity with Dark Souls, and Morrowind would win in that regard. But one wouldn't be able to look at Secret of Mana or Morrowind and genuinely say "it's just like Dark Souls!" because albeit both are Action RPGs (which is enough to see the similarity compared to every other RPG on both lists) they still play very differently.

Chrono Cross

Semantics. They're shitty, dated terms, I know. People have proposed replacements for them but I doubt they're going away any time soon. The biggest problem with the W and J is how some ignorant people take them completely fucking literally. It's like:
>"What genre does that game belong to?"
>"Uh, it was made in Japan."

>All ARPGs are actually JRPGs
Okay retard, you can stop posting now.

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List 1 are sample JRPGs from the early 90s
List 2 are WRPGs from late 80s to early 90s, plus Baldur's Gate since it's the one WRPG many people are likely to have played

The point is that, intuitively, Dark Souls doesn't fit in with either JRPGs or WRPGs. The only way you can put it in either category is with mental gymnastics and fixation on isolated gameplay features.

>Dark Souls doesn't fit in with either JRPGs or WRPGs
Well, this is likely because you're lining up 2D turn-based RPGs and asking me which among them best resembles a 3D action-RPG

Dark Souls is an RPG developed in Japan and that makes it a Japanese RPG
It doesn't take any more thought than that

The thing with "WRPG" vs "JRPG" is that I've found that, for the most part, people are more likely to drop JRPGs because of their aesthetics and writing than they are because of their gameplay differences.

If Square Enix made Baldur's Gate but with Chrono Trigger's aesthetics, people would call it a JRPG, I'm sure of it.

>1. This is an extremely arbitrary point that makes no sense.
It's the most important point.
>Dark Souls' world makes sense in the context of its setting, which is everything we can ask of it.
Yes, it makes sense in the same way that the Mushroom Kingdom makes sense in Mario games. A real RPG attempts to portray a real world, not a gameplay themepark. JRPGs like Chrono Trigger tend to use heavy abstraction, making a kind of miniature world. Meanwhile WRPGs tend to zero in on a small portion of a larger world .
In Dark Souls, "Lordran" is nominally part of a larger world, but not really. Lordran is a special place set apart from everything else and the real world has only vague references.
>2. Your second point is also arbitrary.
No, this is also extremely important and if you don't grasp this there's really nothing to talk about you just don't understand RPGs and why they even exist.

>And? That doesn't make for an RPG.
Oh, but in Deus Ex' case it suddenly did?
>Opinion discarded from here on.
At least you know when to give up.

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>It doesn't take any thought
obviously your posts don't have much thought

Now THIS is podracing

Ok here's a little game:

>List 1
Secret of Mana
Seiken Densetsu 3
Soul Blazer
Terranigma
King's Field
Shadow Tower
Dark Souls

>List 2
Deus Ex
Gothic II
Fallout 3
Mass Effect
Fallout: New Vegas
Skyrim
The Witcher III

Is there any game, in either list, that is more similar to Baldur's Gate than it is to every other game in its own list?

It takes a special kind of stupid to look at a game developed by Japanese people, in the nation of Japan, and come to the conclusion that it is, despite its origins, actually a Western RPG

>Oh, but in Deus Ex' case it suddenly did?
Except it doesn't.
What do Street Fighter loadouts do?
I'll tell you what Deus Ex's stats do: like in every RPG, it limits the things you can and cannot do. You are also able to improve on said weaknesses and strengths, NOT at character creation (which would be redundant: it would constitute character creation, not "improvement"), but during gameplay.
>It's the most important point.
It isn't. You are saying "because it doesn't make sense that this NPC is found there, it is not an RPG". How?
>A real RPG attempts to portray a real world, not a gameplay themepark.
But Dark Souls' does portray a real world, as you admit:
>In Dark Souls, "Lordran" is nominally part of a larger world, but not really. Lordran is a special place set apart from everything else and the real world has only vague references.
Moving on
>No, this is also extremely important and if you don't grasp this there's really nothing to talk about you just don't understand RPGs and why they even exist.
I understand why RPGs exist. You don't understand that a limitation of tabletops doesn't discredit videogames. Why? Because to look for action gameplay in a tabletop game it is absolutely NEEDED that you tell stats to go fuck themselves, whereas a videogame can have both action and stats go hand in hand.

>What do Street Fighter loadouts do?
>Blanka plays the same as Dhalsim
Retard.
>I'll tell you what Deus Ex's stats do: like in every RPG, it limits the things you can and cannot do.
So, exactly like SF.
Except that in Deus Ex those stats matter less than nothing because there's so many workarounds to do the same exact thing that are completely independent of your stats it's almost laughable.
Again, you're a fucking retard.

Choosing between characters does not make an RPG and I have never claimed such a thing.
>So, exactly like SF.
Choosing between characters does not make an RPG and I have never claimed such a thing.

It's the ability to develop your character that counts. Unless, of course, you tell me Street Fighter lets you level up your character and improve their skills on level up in a non-linear and forced way.
>Except that in Deus Ex those stats matter less than nothing because there's so many workarounds to do the same exact thing that are completely independent of your stats it's almost laughable.
The only retard here is you: the developers create a world that let you play it how you want. If you decide to play a stealth oriented character, the game will let you do that. If you decide to play an action oriented character, the game will let you do that. It's an RPG as they come, as stats also influence how successful you are at different skills (unlike Thief: The Dark Project).

It's pretty hard to fault this game,
Visuals and Music are some of the best offered by SNES JRPGs.
All of the party members are so great you'll have trouble picking your least favorite
You get multiple world settings because of the time travel mechanics.
For an added challenge you can end the game at pretty much any point and try to face Lavos
Dual tech is a great mechanic and so is the mechanic where enemies shuffle position and you can hit multiples depending on what moves you use.
My biggest complaint with the game was that when an enemy changed forms it usually was big text like "changed form lightning attacks only now" instead of how Final Fantasy does it where the sprite would change like the painting or the snail.
All in all if you like JRPGs there's almost nothing to dislike about this game.

This, cross is way better.

support

you're

claim

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>Choosing between characters does not make an RPG
There's tons of older games like Chainmail where you choose unalterable templates.
The very basic of the class system used in D&D is to give you a template.
>It's the ability to develop your character that counts.
No, it doesn't, and SF doesn't even infringe that.
>Unless, of course, you tell me Street Fighter lets you level up your character
SF1 doesn't, but games like GG? They totally do, they even let you pick up special commands, Soul Calibur had fully developed equipment system, games like Capcom VS SNK let you pick up different templates of the same character to add further customization, then there's things like the Gougi system in the recent FightingXLayer and so on, all of which are functional RPG mechanics.
>the developers create a world that let you play it how you want.
You can do that in the vast majority of character based games, means nothing.
>It's an RPG as they come
No you fucking retard, an RPG works PURELY by virtue of abstraction of reality through hard mathematical formulae and your character's definition, Deus Ex doesn't do either in the least, same with trash like Mass Effect, TES or Kingdom Hearts.
You're a complete fucking retard who has never played an actual RPG in his life nor does he care about RPGs, any Wizardry or Dragon Quest is ten times the RPG than Deus Ex will ever be.

Chrono Trigger's is a million times worse since 90% of the enemies are unavoidable. Chrono Trigger's encounters aren't any less tedious or unobtrusive than random encounters. At least they learned from this in the sequel and made it so you actually can avoid the enemies in Cross.

>a 25 year old game doesn't feel like a big deal to someone playing it for the first time

What a shock. People - both hype-ers and hype-ees - don't seem to understand context. Someone praising Chrono Trigger as the best RPG ever probably played it when it was new, when it was one of the best that existed at the time. RPGs have changed a lot in the last 25 years, though, and if you grew up playing those, the ones from the mid 90s might not appeal to you. Just like those of us who grew up playing JRPGs might not be interested in pen and paper games. It's fine, you don't need to feel obligated to like it.

>boss strategy

No. You have one way of killing each boss IF they have a specific thing you have to do. Otherwise you just literally spam your strongest attacks. Don't kid yourself.

>90% of the enemies are unavoidable
Maybe try walking around the encounter trigger instead of straight into it like a dumbass

xenoblade chronicles

>cherrypicking

Cross is more ambitious than CT, its story is much more thoughtful, its world is more developed, its combat system is more engaging, characters have more abilities besides just "does damage" and "heals damage", its music is way better, its graphics are way better, it has way more optional content, its NG+ endings are much better and they aren't all gag endings, it has way more replayability, it has better dungeon design. Cross is just a better game all around.

More like Lucca Asstear

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You really think I didn't try that? Like I said for a bunch of encounters you can't avoid the enemies because the encounter trigger covers the whole walkable space, or it doesn't line up with where the enemies+their line of sight are, a lot are just unavoidable.

No, you're just shit

I PLAY MINECRAFT WITH MY FIDGET SPINNER

seething CTcuck

It's an extremely polished and well-rounded JRPG with no real problems.
It innovated and did a lot of things no other JRPGs have been able to replicate.

You could argue that some things are a little dated, like the combat system. But for a game that old it's still a benchmark for how to do JRPGs properly.
Most JRPGs made today can't surpass it, even after all this time. Whether that's a testament to the quality of the game or the incompetence of devs today is up in the air.

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>its story is much more thoughtful
>thoughtful

Yeah, really "thoughtful" when Cross' story requires fucking over EVERYONE from Trigger.

>xenoblade chronicles
It's not even the best Xeno game. Try again.

>It's an extremely polished and well-rounded JRPG with no real problems.
>It innovated and did a lot of things no other JRPGs have been able to replicate.
Both wrong.

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youtu.be/c1CBGH_yySg

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not the edgeworth poster but I'm this guy
what are the problems with chrono trigger it's hard for me to find fault

>There's tons of older games like Chainmail where you choose unalterable templates. The very basic of the class system used in D&D is to give you a template.
That still doesn't make for an RPG. Is Mortal Kombat an RPG or a fighting game?
>No, it doesn't
Yes, it does. D&D literally revolves around your characters growing stronger, like every RPG.
>SF1 doesn't, but games like GG? They totally do, they even let you pick up special commands
Does it? I'm going to need a link to read up on that.
>You can do that in the vast majority of character based games, means nothing.
Of course it means nothing if you take things at face value instead of understanding what I'm saying.
>Food is something you eat
>UH NUH you can eat a lugnut and that doesn't make it food
That's how you sound right now. The point is Deus Ex designs its levels with freedom of approach in mind, catering to the possible builds you have chosen to create and develop your character as. All RPGs work like this, are you going to say no RPG is an RPG then?
>You're a complete fucking retard who has never played an actual RPG in his life nor does he care about RPGs, any Wizardry or Dragon Quest is ten times the RPG than Deus Ex will ever be.
My favorite part of this non-argument is when I show retards like you RPG Codex polls where Deus Ex and Dark Souls are considered some of the best RPGs ever made. It's even funnier when all the Codex does is play old cRPGs and tabletop games too.

But sure, feel free to tell me the RPG Codex doesn't know their RPGs.

But you can't say why or how. Meaning you didn't disprove anything. You simply disagree, even though you know you're wrong. But you're too close-minded to admit it.

>it's hard for me to find fault
Perhaps you should play more JRPGs then.
Who am I kidding, you won't.
>But you can't say why or how.
I can, you just won't listen either way, like the rest of you triggerniggers.
It's a poorly planned game in general, zero complexity, zero player input, completely fucked up gameplay and nonexistent difficulty, the most boring quest design and story ever made, let alone characters.
It's not a complete disaster like Secret of the Stars, but at the same time it's a mediocre game that doesn't do anything well enough outside of graphics and music, like most Square RPGs, just another game propelled by massive marketing, graphics and a rabid fanbase.

>It's a poorly planned game in general, zero complexity, zero player input, completely fucked up gameplay and nonexistent difficulty, the most boring quest design and story ever made, let alone characters.

Those are just statements, not elaborations or facts. If you think you can convince anyone with just statement no wonder you have trouble getting people to take you seriously.

Like really, what went through your mind when you wrote "completely fucked up gameplay"? In what dimension did you think anyone would understand what you meant by this?

You post contributed nothing to the discussion and still disproved absolutely nothing.

>That still doesn't make for an RPG
Chainmail is a historic wargame and definitely a fucking RPG and you'd be a complete fool to say otherwise.
>D&D literally revolves around your characters growing stronger, like every RPG.
No, that one element of RPGs, not even a core one, and can be realized in so many different ways too it's pointless to even mention it.
>Does it? I'm going to need a link to read up on that.
If you don't even know that Arcsys Fightan's had RPG mechanics since the PS2 games you're completely hopeless not only when it comes to RPGs but in vidya in general.
>if you take things at face value
You're the one who's taking things at face value and pretending having one or two RPG elements makes a game an RPG.
>the point is Deus Ex designs its levels with freedom of approach in mind
That has literally nothing to do with RPGs, at all.
>All RPGs work like this
No they fucking don't, even some campaigns like Ravenloft didn't fucking let you do whatever you wanted, in fact most campaigns are
>when I show retards like you RPG Codex polls where Deus Ex and Dark Souls are considered some of the best RPGs ever made.
the reason the west is calling first person shooters RPGs nowadays.
Ah, so you're a filthy codexnigger, that explains why you're terminally retarded and think your shithole matters.

>Those are just statements, not elaborations or facts.
There's nothing to elaborate in a game where you press A to win, I wish I could actually elaborate something, but I can't, the game is just that simplistic and broken, none of its mechanic matters, it has zero notable player input and it "innovated" nothing, all of its gimmicks were already done by other games years before CT was a thing, and often done better to.
Not even the story makes sense.

>i can't elaborate and justify my statements, but they're still facts! trust me!

I have written essays and breakdowns on fucking atari games yet you can't elaborate on anything in a game like Chrono Trigger?

Look, just realize that you have an irrational distaste for the game that you can't actually justify to others and move on. You clearly don't have an open enough mind or even half decent analystical skills, so give up.

>I have written essays and breakdowns on fucking atari games
I'm not a mouthbreather who enjoys talking about nothing, what can I say.
If you really need a 2000 characters post to understand why a game like CT where none of its basic battle elements like positioning work you either have severe brain damage or are trying really hard to argue about nothing for the sake of it.

>still can't even form a one sentence elaboration
>instead continues to make excuses and backpedal in far more words than would've been needed for surface level elaboration

This is the last reply I'll give you before I leave this thread and it's advice you should heed, for your own sake.
Stop being close-minded and delusional. If you have such a hard time defending or elaborating on certain ideas then maybe consider the fact that, yes you of all people could be wrong.

>This is the last reply I'll give you before I leave this thread
Please do, especially since you have presented zero arguments for your own supposed cause.
One less deluded idiot the better.

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Kill yourself, underaged zoomer faggot.

>Name a better RPG than Chrono Trigger
You even trying?

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Chrono Feels thread?

Nice~

youtube.com/watch?v=zCla6J4o0W8

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>If you don't even know that Arcsys Fightan's had RPG mechanics since the PS2 games you're completely hopeless not only when it comes to RPGs but in vidya in general.
>if you didn't play this weeb fighting game you are completely hopelessly
Come the fuck on.
>the reason the west is calling first person shooters RPGs nowadays.
Yep, sounds like the Codex... not.
>Ah, so you're a filthy codexnigger, that explains why you're terminally retarded and think your shithole matters.
I'm glad you understand you lost the discussion.

It started slow for me, but shine after destroyed future travel. Maybe you have shit taste OP?