But it had a really good battle system!!

Retards who shit on autobattle never played a non-Square jRPG

paradigm swapping is alot more fun than the standard mash attack to win of all the more critically acclaimed FF games

this lmao. There are some people that retardedly assert that they have the same personality despite Lightning being 5000x more aggressive and controlling.

true

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Vanille best girl

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Her accent is cute

Had a hard time believing she was 18 desu

It shows how fucking rock-bottom standards for combat is in this franchise when a generic ATB system except with a damage multiplier mechanic that makes almost every fight exactly the same can honestly be considered near the top.

Everything about her is cute

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this proves to show that leveling systems is an outdated mechanic that only hamper the depth of your combat system. It prevents developers from carefully crafting individual fights to make them as exciting as possible. In 13-2's main game, a single level up could break the game and make you overpowered and go straight to one hit killing enemies and being an unstoppable force.

Leveling is a bad mechanic, it's why people say that MMO's don't get good until you reach end-game (level cap) because raids are balanced around that specific level.

What I don't like about the battle system is that, with haste and auto-ATB refill when paradigm switching, auto-battle is WAY faster than even god-tier manual inputs.
Also, the AI for auto-battle is actually pretty good, making use of obscure mechanics I don't even think are mentioned ingame. For instance, assuming equal elemental weaknesses, alternating between attacks is better than spamming the same one for building the bar.
That's why you'll see the ai use fire>ice or even fire>fira even though there's only one enemy.
You can use repeat to somewhat mitigate that after the first inputs, but that only really works with attacks. So really you only want to use manual inputs for special attacks.

The leveling system isn't outdated. It's just that the developers don't want to do the hard work of actually playing the game and balance it to the level you'll be at. A work they used to do.

Now if someone wants to grind for a second and ruin their game, they should be allowed to become overpowered as well.

I disagree with you. You can't predict what level any player will be at, besides the ones who reach the level cap. A single side quest is enough to make you outlevel the main quest because it's balanced around people who don't do any optional quests. Then if you choose to not do that, then the people who do main quest only are getting one shotted. You are oversimplifying this by saying that they just aren't trying hard enough. You also have to keep in mind that all these JRPG's create incentives to grind besides leveling. Sometimes you need materials for a dumb fetch quest, sometimes you need to find a certain drop like a particular weapon or gold so you can repair your stuff. This stuff will all lead to you outleveling the game.

You can't predict what level people will be at. Most already do try to balance it around this and fail. Leveling systems will always be a joke.

Also if people want to be overpowered, they should just lower the difficulty of the game you get the EXACT same result. You do more damage, kill faster, and take less damage. It gives you all the benefits of leveling up would.

XIII is constantly capping your progression until the last couple chapters yet it's still easy as fuck for those parts. And not every RPG needs to have huge sidequests before endgame, just look at X.

I shall disagree. The APM with Paradigm Shift is much lower.

The only way XIII-2's balancing makes sense is that they literally balanced it around you attempting to flee from every battle. It reveals for instance that the bosses have characteristics and tactical depth that differ from each other unlike the first game, with the exception of Wladislaus. And basically no one will ever know, having played normally.

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Adding difficulty settings just lowers the incentive for actually plating well. If young user is faced against a tough challenge and he has the choice of either grinding for hours or trying again, he's more likely to try and git gud, and learn the fight. If all he has to do is change an option in a menu though all that risk/reward is thrown out of the window.

I liked how TWEWY handled level ups, in which the levels only contribute to how much health you have in battle and you can de-level and decrease your health in exchange for more increased special loot drops from enemies.

Yes, you can. Just take running the side quest dungeon once into account. If the main quest starts becoming hard for those that don't do the side quests, they can grind or actually start planning a strategy with their abilities. Usually you don't get much out of a side quest either in terms of level, usually your reward is gear. And even that tends to be situationally useful only.

Is this something you do? Cause I can't relate. Difficulty settings in JRPG's exist REGARDLESS with the exception of most final fantasy games. And by default 99% of JRPG's are easy as fuck to begin with so I don't even understand your point. The only way to make most JRPG's a challenge, is to purposely avoid fights and purposely keep yourself as weak as possible.

I only found this out by using that difficulty mod that gave them 500% extra stats. Imagine that, I had to give all enemies 500% more everything just for them to stand a chance against me.. I wasn't even using a powergaming guide either.

no, that was 13-2

>Usually you don't get much out of a side quest either in terms of level, usually your reward is gear. And even that tends to be situationally useful only.

What JRPG are you even talking about at this point.

Difficulty settings in JRPG aren't nearly as common as they are in other genres though, and there's a reason for it. Running away from enemies is usually faster, and beating a boss as fast as possible allows you to get progress the game, thus getting better equipment and xp cows than you would have gotten if you had grinded. I always felt the main challenge in RPGs was wasting as little time as possible on mobs.

Levels are just a way to change the difficulty if you really are stuck, but it makes you work for it. I'd rather have no difficulty modifier at all, but this is a better option than simple diff. settings.

The way tales of games handle difficulty settings is also good though.

reminder that lightning's head is a little too big, you can't unsee it now

The battle system can be pretty off-putting for first-timers, but once you get the hang of it (and have a little patience), it's pretty goddamn fun.

Modern JRPG's have it nearly as common as other genres actually. Also typically JRPG's "flee" command doesn't work on enemies stronger than you OR bosses. i can't name more than 2 JRPG's where running away skill worked on strong enemies.

Your entire defense for the leveling system, is the exact reason I hate it. I have to purposely avoid using mechanics in the hopes of getting a challenge? I can't just play the game at any pace otherwise I will accidentally make the game irreversibly easy.

Having a difficulty setting is a better solution for retards.

It did though. 13 is just a better X really.

Looks fine to me

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but it did, and OP was wrong.

>>But it had a really good battle system!!
>But it didn't, and Yea Forums was wrong.
But it did, and Yea Forums was right.

Modern JRPGs typically have visible enemies on the map you can avoid.
And you still get to use the game mechanics against bosses, you'll just be missing out on casting your big dick AoE against the game's equivalent of metal slimes a hundred times.

the only thing i liked about 13 was lightnings belly button ring got me diamonds

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There was a lot of mechanics from TWEWY that I wish other games took note from.
>you can chain up to 4 and eventually 16 rounds at a time that have the enemies get consecutively stronger throughout each round and drop more loot as a result

IMO XIII is a game that really sucks the first playthrough because of player expectations. But when you try the game again, now that you know what to expect. It's easier to adjust to.

On topic of JRPG's having shitty leveling system. Lightning Returns unironically has the best idea for handling a level system it just needs to be refined. Stats are based on the quests you complete. You can still grind in the game, but that's more for collecting materials or skills. (which you will naturally obtain simply from doing quests to begin with). The only reason to grind monsters like a brainlet is just for the extinction reward. If they removed the extinction mechanic, removed unfulfilling fetch quests then Lightning Returns would've had a perfect leveling system.

lightning is my wife

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>you can avoid

So I have to purposely avoid something for a challenge. That doesn't sound like fun at all to me. Also I can't recall ANY bosses being hard in any of the past 6 final fantasy games, except the OPTIONAL bosses. But if you fight optional bosses, you will end up getting legendary gear and overleveled the rest of the game, because optional bosses are like 50x harder than anything else the game has to offer.

Literally pic related. The main game can be played on auto combat in your sleep. In fact, the leveling in that game is so bad they have a difficulty that forces you to stay at level 1. Only implying that there's no way for the game to challenge you, unless you deliberately put all your effort into making that possible, completely breaking my immersion.

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I too really like how you get stats from quests but the grinding to build decent abilities is fucking horrendous. They should've just made it so that a single ability can be used by all schemata and that you can upgrade abilites from the menu rather than running to a shop.

Man I really hated how certain bosses can just erect an impenetrable barrier that you can do nothing about besides just waiting. XII's difficulty curve is completely fucked.

Not really anything in particular. I was actually thinking of finding a weapon in side passage that gives fireproof or something, which would be super useful ten hours later when you're fighting some dragon. You don't usually get a reward from a quest five hours into the game that jettisons you to endgame strength (unless it's DLC). So therefore I said situational, it's not usually something that hasn't become negligible ten to twenty levels later. This hypothetical isn't a common problem in JRPGs.

She became tolerable once I switched to JP voices.

>that jettisons you to endgame strength

Because the gear has levels tied to them. level 10 boots, level 12 boots, level 13 boots. level 15 boos. The quests generally do make you outlevel the main game, because pretty much almost every JRPG is balanced around people who don't do side quests. So even doing 1 or 2 puts you ahead of the curve.

Avoiding enemies as an adventurer doesn't break my immersion, in fact it only strengthens it. Also everything you do in ff XII is controlled by the player, frome the positioning to the gambits which YOU set, so I don't know why you picked a game with so much player agency

The only incentive a player needs to play well, is if they want to beat the game at a higher difficulty. They want satisfaction from a challenge.

Like it or not, some nerds just don't play games for challenge. So give them a difficulty setting to cater to their bitch ass, and everyone wins. Sometimes people like to grind just cause it's addicting, not because they are stuck on a battle. But now it's punishing people by making the game so easy that they uninstall it out of boredom.

Every argument to defend grinding, is people saying "just don't do it". Then it makes me ask the question of what's the point to playing a JRPG if I'm actively avoiding the game part? Because these JRPG's are only cutscenes and combat, and all of you are telling me to avoid combat.

And that's precisely what I said they should stop doing. They should balance around the single run side quests as well, but not grinding. There doesn't even have to be that many side quests either for that matter. Although even more optimally allowing players to toggle off EXP gain should be in all RPGs. It's much easier.

>with so much player agency

? Ok I spend 1 minute setting up gambits then forget about it for the next 10 hours, I go into fights and just keep pressing the attack button till things are over. How is that player agency lol

Or you can just remove the leveling system all together since it doesn't enhance the experience. Instead of trying to put tape over the issue, you can just remove the main source of the problem.

Why do people even say the battle system was good? You can beat the whole game by spamming auto-battle and switching paradigms occasionally when you feel like it

>b-b-but its really deep you can choose your own attacks ;_;
Why would you when you can beat the whole game without a sweat mashing auto-battle?

>m-m-m-muh optional super "difficult" bosses
Wow, opening with buffs/debuffs and then going back to auto-battle + paradigm shifts. Really high IQ stuff.

Game was a fucking garbage fire. Story sucked. Characters sucked. The story was told in a shitty way and the combat most definitely sucked. I'll only concede that the graphics looked good on release and the soundtrack is decent.

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Did you actually play the game? Unless you actually do fight every single nemy on the way and overlevel, a single gambit setup isn't gonna cut it. I didn't use gambits all that much myself because it requires knowledge of the boss to actually know what to do, by the time I figure this out it's not worth taking the time to change setup.

It's not tape. It's balancing the actual normal playthrough and looking the issue straight in the eye that JRPG players tend to do everything that is presented to them.

The leveling system's purpose is to emulate skill growth and expertise. It's also pacing the gameplay experience with new learned abilities at the exact pace the player wishes to obtain them (in contrast to tying them to story progression's specific intervals by the developers' mandate.) It's to give you agency (and hopefully variety for replays, if there's a large selection.). It's a reward system for continuing to play.

>A guy thinks all leveling systems should be removed because the monkeys at Square haven't been able to make coherent gameplay systems or do basic balancing for a franchise that has mostly been cinematic-focused gameplay-second trash since the fourth game.

Thank god none of you will end up designing an RPG. You'll likely end up with degenerate shit like Pillars of Eternity.

There are some like myself who want the game to offer them a challenge instead of challenging themselves. That's the reason for no difficulty settings. Levels are just a compromise between this and difficulty settings, and they work pretty well. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Look at the series it's in. Spam attack the series. At least in 13 debuffs and buffs etc are useful for once.

FF6 spam tools then magic. FF7 spam attack and limit FF8 spam limit FF9 use high damage attack FF10 simon says then quick hit.

FF15 Hold O

Pretty much yeah.

It's never been a complex series. And it hasn't been remotely hard since FFV.

I've only played a bit of the first game but it really feels like stance dancing: the game to me.