>Take job at AAA developer
>Surprised when you have to work hard
Seriously. They should feel grateful they earn a living making video games of all things. Especially considering how hard it is to even get your foot in the door in the industry. Is there a lazier group of assholes than game developers?
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based retard op
he's not wrong
quit your job if you don't like it
how does the boot taste
two based retards
keep em comin
t. people with zero skills
shouldn't have become a code monkey
Like the creator of God of War said, if ypu push for better treatment, they will just outsource the development.
What shits me is when they complain that contractors don't get the same benefits and bonuses as full time employees.
Isn't that how it works pretty much everywhere?
If I had to work more than 40 hours a week I'd take a hike off a fucking bridge
i feel like being able to code is a pretty good skill, epic retard san
Califags don't know there is a world outside their borders
>Employees
LTE QA is as much an employee as an Asian qualifies a human being.
then you can surely quit your job and find a better one without any problems :)
>burn employees down to the bone
>can't even make a slightly decent product
based retards
that is how it works. some companies like to abuse the definition and have """contractors""" working full-time so they can avoid paying bennies
that's usually how these things work though
Lol good luck getting a bunch of pajeets to make anything that requires an original thought
Contractors actually did have some bonuses like full time employees. Then the contractors sued the companies because they were similar to full time employees but without exactly the same benefits. Which forced companies to take away all those bonuses because they had to draw a clear line between contractor and employee.
Sure they do, they want to import it all there
There's working hard, 40 hours a week is a considerable amount of time. 50-70 hours even more so. I've done those kinds of hours (not on video games mind you, but more physical labor) for a straight month. It's preferable not to have those kinds of hours. Otherwise you risk getting what Japan wrestles with: Karoshi. Not the admittedly fun flash game sadly.
>Industry that requires creative thinking
>Requires good planning first and foremost
>Requires intelligent management skills.
>Ask that employees be "Passionate"
It's a balancing act really, and the industry of today seems to have forgotten that immensely.
>tfw 70 hour work week
How do people fucking do this shit?
Don’t you think that’s a highly unethical practice? That’s why so many people are pushing for hardline immigration restrictions
They're perfect for AAA development, then.
Seems like there would be a lot of burnout, even just throughout the day, much less over an extended period of time. Especially as a programmer. You can only stare at some code for so long before you can't reason through it any more.
Of course those in power don't care that focus wanes as time goes on. There are never any hiccups, never any external factors, just "get this done in this many hours".
I never said it was ethical, I just said what companies will do.
UNIONIZE!
YOUR!
WORKPLACE!
You are a dumb shit loser
Go lick your boss's boot instead of posting, cuck
Here, you dropped this
>Especially considering how hard it is to even get your foot in the door in the industry.
My "foot in the door" came in the form of just being a dude on some streamer's chat. I wasn't even a sub. Our QA lead, server tech, and some of the engineers started out just making mods for the game our company has. It's not as hard as you make it out to be.
>hire people who don't know how to code
>make the people who actually know how to code do other work instead
>make the people who cheated/lied about coding keep bothering the people who actually know how to code every second
No such thing as a shortage of good programmers, they simply don't get hired because they are straight white male.
devs are even MORE entitled than the consumers.. Thats why they produce so much shit.
And instead of accepting that they made a shitty game, they blame gamers for being entitled and not buying it
They'll blame gamers EVEN IF they buy it
boss lady keeps it real
those 3 were so confused and it's hilarious
>Video game developers create unions
>Game publishers slowly but surely move all business to China and India
>Unions have nobody to negotiate with and quickly turn into a pseudo mafia
There is no space for human rights in the tech industry. There are thousands of people willing to work for peanuts just to get a foot in the door.
>t. NEET faggot
>Oh no they force me to work, literally Hitler, all of them
>game publishers move operations to india and china
>produce trash that even normalfags won't buy
>game developers create new companies that treat employees fairly and are free from the yoke of braindead executives
What's the downside here?
It is unless you are a dumbass who followed his dreams of making vidya
that really doesn't work here, game development is an incredibly specialized field. games of quality can't come from random no name studios. We might like Stalker for being jank but the normie consumer would never tolerate Eastern European levels of jank in AAA games.
the downside here is in before the last step there's about a decade where the corporate execs keep trying to wait it out. Most people don't want to wait that long but it's the only way.
Explain.
>>game developers create new companies that treat employees fairly and are free from the yoke of braindead executives
Yeah, like Double Fine.
Hacking and botting MMOs to sell gold makes more money than making the games themselves
RuneScape's programmers make like 40k/year
I've made an average of 100k/yr from selling gp/mesos since 2015
yes and hiring contractors but treating them like full time employees without the benefits is shitty
oh hey I just started watching this. Its pretty good.
reminds me of that stupid bitch who was complaining that EA "made" her husband work overtime
Ironically, the CEO of Grinding Gear Games (Path of Exile devs) a company literally bankrolled by tencent, came out and and announced recently that he would never make his employees do crunch time.
racist
>Communist in the tweets, capitalist on the time sheets
Every fucking time. And the left slurps that shit right up.
Why is nobody talking about the point that crunch is not only unavoidable but necessary to push products in an age where there's literally hundreds of millions of dollars are at state? You should absolutely be the most talented and efficient artist not only in your field but in the world at that point.
"I support women in the games industry...please ignore my slavedriver tendencies...also ignore that I got Amy Hennig fired...I''m a good guy I promise"
>AAA STUDIO GOOD
>DEVELOPERS BAD
Based Nep
Even more so when you know who actually supports women in the industry
That guy's face when she says it, holy shit. Priceless.
UHH HOW COULD YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT WORKING CONDITIONS???
Yep, they are evil and lazy....bunch of cuckmies transcucks
I don't get it, I also work a programming job and never do overtime if I don't want to, especially unpaid. Every company is looking for IT people so why not stand your ground and go somewhere else if they don't accept it?
Not your fucking problem as an employee.
>Have no argument other than calling people retards
Grats, you are the only retard here
As if the market's going to dry up if big releases come out relatively farther apart?
The only industry that pays native developers the wages they deserve is the military industrial complex.
Most of these idiots would probably rather starve than work for them.
So on one hand, yes, it's their fault for being moralizing faggots, but on the other, the quality of video games drops dramatically because no programmer worth a damn is going to work on them.
Do you care more about shitting on faggots or video games?
> Especially considering how hard it is to even get your foot in the door in the industry.
This desu
A guy once said
>two sides of the same kosher coin
>bare steel columns
The fuck?
Gaming and crunching will always hold hand. It is like that since forever, now it looks worse because there are much more people involved and much more money, also, an AAA game can't be finished in 2 years anymore.
Who the fuck wants to work for a AAA company these days anyway? Just learn the skills and go indie and you can do whatever you want.
>how hard it is to even get your foot in the door in the industry
It's trivial to get into the industry. Are you people nuts?
Working as a game developer is a fool's game. Only people who fall for it are idiots who listen to their idiotic boomer parents' advice like "do what you love for a living"
No one has ever become rich from game development other than those public figureheads who are in bed with journalists, it's basically grunt work
Because that point is complete bullshit and 99% bad project management is to blame for crunch that is otherwise completely avoidable and unnecessary.
Is 70 hours supposed to be a lot haha ?
I dont get it. They probably come in every saturday and sunday and dont actually work hard either, just waste time doing some pointless task until thy can leave for the day. Studios with thousands of employees like Ubisoft etc should bev making a game every month if they were actually working hard instead of just warming up their comfy chairs.
If you dont like it then fuck off you hack.
>tfw nearly every study on the subject has found open offices to hurt productivity and morale
forbes.com
entrepreneur.com
oxfordeconomics.com
royalsocietypublishing.org
When someone say something retarded, it doesn't merit a serious argument. You deserve to be called retarded.
Does the finance industry underpay its native devs too?
It's not trivial to get a job worth a shit, guess that's why so many of these losers complain. I've never seen a group of people with such open disdain for the people who buy the products they make. Excessive crunch time is due to bad project management or shitty employees constantly fucking up anyway.
>Seriously. They should feel grateful they earn a living making video games of all things. Especially considering how hard it is to even get your foot in the door in the industry. Is there a lazier group of assholes than game developers?
Why Yea Forums is so butthurt about it? People just want a normal 8 hour work day. I can't see anything wrong about it.
AAA gamedev is pretty tough place to work right now and everybody knows it. And it's twice as fucked if your management is bad.
If you can't get your foot in the door in the industry, you're the lazy one, OP.
Imagine having to work your ass off on shit games and then being told that it's a "second family." Hahahahaa youtube.com
This, Also think about what we know about AAA
We know with GoW they were already focussed on the cinematics and "one-shot" camera that we didn't see any uncut gameplay until it was leaked a month from release. The gameplay was still being developed because they put everything into cinematics and mocap instead of getting the mechanics down perfectly first.
Hell look at Days Gone, they were showing fully rendered, fully voiced cinematics while the gameplay was bare bones and broken. AAA devs waste far too much time doing the extra shit and not finishing the fucking meat of the game. Then when they finally get told "You've just wasted 4 years doing fuck all trying to be Hollywood, this game needs to release in 6 months" and suddenly by "some unpredictable factor" they're now doing crunch.
FINISH THE GAME PART THEN DO THE EXTRA SHIT.
BUT NO, instead they waste time putting together some cringe ass "gameplay" trailer that isn't representative of the final product at all so normalfags go "WOW SO REAL".
How hard is it to just make the fucking game?
Yea Forums hates game developers even more than they hate publishers and upper management. It's really that fucking simple.
It's because working too many hours is actually inefficient, especially if you don't get any rest. Even after one hour of work/study your concentration plummets. When companies like Naughty Dog doesn't understand is that they're just making the problem worse. What they really need is more people, not more hours.
So long as there are people who will happily take on the crunch in their place, this standard will continue. I'm not making a value judgement here, this is just the logistical nature of this specific employee employer relationship and the sheer demand for triple a video game jobs.
>AAA gamedev is pretty tough place to work right now
And that's the fault of lazy directors and producers who instead of getting base mechanics down in the first couple months scream and flail about how they need to do ALL the cinematics because they want to feel like a director in Hollywood.
I've not really heard anything one way or the other about them, so I can't really say.
You are a moron
Quality argument
see +70 hour work weeks nonstop over the course of months if not years is demonstrably harmful to productivity, no matter how you try to spin it by calling devs lazy or whatever
Imagine doing nothing but sitting in front of a computer inside an air-conditioned office and unironically trying to argue that you work too hard.
programmers outside of vidya make far more than those working in vidya. that's what i've heard.
is there a lazier group of assholes than game developers?
games """""""""""""journalists"""""""""""""""
Someone post the pajeet WoW development team
>It's trivial to get into the industry
I'm not taking about an assistant job or working QA. I mean real code/art/design full hire. If it's that trivial, explain what people who have to code in the AV industry to support themselves despite tying for years to work in vidya are missing (I have multiple friends who tried to work in vidya, couldn't get in, and no work at an AV company doing conference room shit)? Honestly. What were they doing wrong?
That's basically what happens. It's no coincidence that the games industry has one of the highest employee turnover rates in software dev, and OP's attitude is exactly why companies can get away with treating employees like shit. Even if you quit and find a better job with better conditions and pay they're are thousands of naive & inexperienced fresh out of college they can hire from and soulsuck them dry until the next batch of college grads come along.
>Oh no a large company is demanding crunch from the employees, it so never happened before! Big news!
Then why don't you leave and look for another job?
>LMAO WTF? Are you 12? Have you ever worked? Are you even an adult? Of course if you are an adult you can't just be a sensible person and do the responsible thing and change jobs, that would make too much sense! No, instead I should keep crying about my shit job! It is absolutely NOT an option!!
Every fucking time.
If you don't help yourself, why do you expect God to help you, I have no idea.
>it so never happened before!
Said nobody.
>Then why don't you leave and look for another job?
>Said nobody.
Then why do news outlets and blogs and threads here keep reporting on it but for a different company like it's news worthy?
That neither answers the question, nor refutes changing job as a viable option.
>I'm not taking about an assistant job or working QA. I mean real code/art/design full hire.
I'd say that your chances depend on your location. In US it's probably a bit tough to get a full time art/design position in AAA, since most of the shit is outsourced nowadays to Asia and slavs.
Mobileshit development and indies on the other hand are not that hard to get into. If you got some kind of starter portfolio that shows that you know basics and can do shit or average knowledge of popular engines as a programmer (Unity, UE), then junior positions are not as hard to get.
and youre getting paid $40k+ to do so
most of your day is basically spent drinking tea, chatting with colleagues and trying to tell everyone orange man bad on twitter
its only a matter of time before employers hold on to your passport and documents and pay you in fun bucks only used in their stores and you have to live in their living corridors and you are never allowed to leave.
Because it is news worthy dumbass. Companies abusing their workforce has always been public interest, people complain about clickbait pieces like "top 10 games that raped me" and "why we need easymode" but whenever journalists actually do investigative journalism you fags piss and moan about it.
>That neither answers the question, nor refutes changing job as a viable option.
It does if you're not an obtuse retard who deliberately misses the point. Quitting your job doesn't solve the systemtic issue of companies treating employees like shit.
You have never worked a day in your life at a games company.
>Quitting your job doesn't solve the systemtic issue of companies treating employees like shit.
Yes it can solve the issue for anyone who cares to solve it for themselves. If everyone had a grasp on the concept of personal responsiblity, then nobody would be in this situation since there would be nobody to exploit.
If you let yourself exploit, it's your own damn fault. If you don't want to be exploited, you absolutely have the option to change jobs.
>muh bersonal resbonsipilty
>companies should be allowed to exploit their workers because it's the workers fault
Blow it out your ass boomer.
you have never had sex
>demand better conditions
>get replaced by H1B's
Learn to code oh wait lol
Fuck game devs.
>h-have sex!
pathetic.
>hurr durr chaning job is not an option to fix your problem because *blaaaaaaaarghdjfsdkjfn*
Case in point.
Working for a AAA doesn't sound like fun. Long hours, pay isn't great and you're probably living in an area with a high living cost, corporate always dictating how things should be, normies might like your games but you don't really care about them, everyone else shits on your games, walking on eggshells in and outside of work because if you say or do something that isn't PC you might lose your job, ect.
Even hell can be tolerable. There's plenty of men who will sign up to go on another tour of duty despite risking life and limb for questionable pay and benefits because the culture and comradery make it tolerable or even desirable. So there's no question you can work if the conditions are poor, as long as there is meaningful compensation.
Is programming hard?
>hurr durr chaning job is the solution to fix systemic problem and corps should have unlimited power because *muh bersnal responisbilty blaaaaaaaarghdjfsdkjfn*
case in point
>Company treats you like shit
>Yea Forums is okay with that
I know you guys are (((based))) and (((red pilled))) but jesus christ, you faggots need to stand up for yourself. Licking that billionaire's boot isn't going to get you anything at all, moron.
>8 h to sleep
>10 h to work
>6 h to check reddit
And Yea Forums will defend it, partially out of spite for game devs and partially because of "free market" cultists and corporate bootlickers who sincerely believe all labor laws should be abolished and companies should be able to infinitely exploit workers.
>hurr durr chaning job is the solution to fix systemic problem because *muh bersnal responisbilty blaaaaaaaarghdjfsdkjfn*
This but unironically
>and corps should have unlimited power
Nobody said this.
Yes you did. Thanks for admitting unironically that you're a retard.
And changing jobs is not an option because....?
finding a job isn't easy.
>Yes you did.
Where?
Thanks for admitting unironically that you're a retard.
seething incel
>No, she's from Russia! She's a putin-troll! Do not listen her!
Who do you think will be left to make non-indie vidya when everyone with half a brain leaves the industry because they don't want to put up with shit conditions and being underpaid? Protip: It isn't going to be people good at making vidya.
Oh okay then it's totally not an option.
I don't see why these workers need a job when they're living rent free in your fucking head
If people are making bad video games because they are bad, people will stop buying them.
That means compaines will have to make more effort to retain talents.
ex-animatorfag here. I used to think the workload was insane when I was learning stuff in school.
When you become competent and are actually able to do your tasks at a decent pace where you're not held back by misunderstanding the software or not knowing your workflow, it's actually just work instead of a tedious struggle.
When you know what you're doing it just needs to be done, you don't even mind spending an extra 2-3 hours for that supreme quality because it feels great to make easier for yourself before deadline and having relief of knowing you'll get your scenes done on time and that you're reassured on knowing how to do it.
Even if your scene gets deleted or crashes without saving it, you'll do it over twice as good in half the time.
However weaker students that just got by will probably have a hard time at work because they didn't graduate with a COMPLETE and COMPREHENSIVE understanding of the methodology of animating, using their software or even basic fundamental principles neglected.
The people complaining in OPs pic are probably the normies that just got by and were fun to be around but ultimately needed a lot of assistance to get something done at a presentable level.
>If people are making bad video games because they are bad, people will stop buying them.
We already know for a fact that's not true.
>That means compaines will have to make more effort to retain talents.
They don't need to because they have an unlimited supply of low-skill ignorant college kids who "want to make vidya!"
finding a job is easy but finding a job you can live off of is hardcore. It only works because everyone CANT succeed. People need to fail and be exploited for this to work so there are only a limited number of slots feels bad man.
>When you know what you're doing it just needs to be done, you don't even mind spending an extra 2-3 hours
More like 15-20 hours
>They don't need to because they have an unlimited supply of low-skill ignorant college kids who "want to make vidya!"
And they deserve everything bad happening to them for not having personal responsibility. No sympathy here, and I don't see why anyone should care about them for being stupid.
>And changing jobs is not an option because....?
It is. But the options are somewhat limited. Switching to other AAA is probably not the best idea, since the problem is really industry-wide and you might see the same shit over there.
Moving out of gamedev usually means lower pay, since you're starting all over again (there might be a lot of similarities in programming jobs for example, but in general gamedev and some enterprise shit are pretty damn different).
And starting working at fast food with your knowledge is a shitty idea in general.
Working with indies or doing freelance might be fun, but probably not as rewarding.
>I don't see why anyone should care about them for being stupid.
Hey retard:
Vidya devs are becoming the new teachers
>paid extremely well
>have more freedom than 90% of office jobs
>are still unhappy because they have nothing else to complain about
>protest that their profession doesnt constantly give in to their demands
In your posts where you deflect any accountability of the company back unto the "personal responsibility" of the workers. In fact pretty much every time people try to hold companies accountable you faggots always deflect with
>just don't buy it lol
>just quit the job lol
>muh personal responsibility
Thanks for parroting me verbatim, confirming that you are a complete and utter retard.
not sure man i'm not in the field. i have done a bunch of programming stuff though so i can tell you that the actual doing it isn't hard, it's figuring out how to make it do what you want.
i'm assuming you're interested in the field? if you like problem solving and design you might like it. i know those are fancy buzzwords but it's mostly what you do when you're programming. you have to think about how to make your program do what you want and how to make it efficient.
so really to answer your question programming isn't hard. anyone can easily learn it. the job is what might be hard.
And why is this my problem again? If video games become shit because the developers are too stupid to make life decisions, then I'll stop playing video games.
>>paid extremely well
Good goy
In other words you don't care about the quality of video games. Sasuga bootlick-kun
Average programmer earns 70k a year in my country, thats very high for the type of work.
It seems like "personal responsibility" triggers you because deep down on a subconscious level you know I'm right, but you don't have any comeback.
That's why the best you can do is just repeat the words in ironic quotations hoping it will substitute an argument against it.
Programmers on average make more money in other fields than making video games.
You're right I don't. I haven't for years since AAA video games have gone to shit more than 10 years ago, the quality can't go any much lower to be noticable.
>I write lines of code to make video games I deserve a doctors salary!
Yikes
Maybe take up bricklaying or something if money is the issue?
that's an "underaged b&" if I see one.
Only if somebody is on maternity leave or people are missing; 2-3 extra hours at the end of every day of the work week isn't torture. The studio I worked at was more comfortable than my own home and the friends there made everything quite fun even if taxing on my body.
Probably because those industries are more important to the market and turn a higher profit?
I'm 25
>teachers
>paid well
you have to go to college to earn as much money as a highschool degree LMAO
I've heard from fields like oil & gas and agrology that crunches are just kind of part of the work cycle. I work for a small startup company and we seem to embrace high workload and low workload interchangeably.
If you can't work hard, then go do something easy. Jobs like that certainly exist
game programmers aren't "average programmers", they are min wage programmers, that demands the highest degrees per dollar in the world.
Thats because you fucking retard, they dont need large staffs after the game is shipped and the next one is in early development.
The reason why that didnt happened in the past was for two reasons, first that development cycles were smaller (as they didnt require so much "grunt work" as they do today) and second there less people required to make then.
The notion you are going to keep about 500 people employed for 2 years when the project is at a stage were it only requires 20-50 people is fucking absurd unless of course you arent the one paying the salaries (and a commie) since today projects do go around for that long before the large staffs you see in the credits start working on then and no, they cannot just put those people in other projects because this leads to other problems at management level.
The video game industry is one of the most profitable. "Importance" is completely irrleavent here.
Fucking califags are the worst.
People need to stop sustaining the publisher model of game dev.
A teacher in australia earns 30 dollars an hour on average, even higher if you're in an executive or coordination position.
I work as a mechanical engineer and I earn only slightly more than that.
Do you think a school teacher should earn as much as I do?
You didn't address my post, just vapid accusations of "triggered" hoping it will substitute an argument against it.
That's the best you can do because deep down on a subconscious level you know I'm right, but you don't have any comeback.
Got a source for that? I'm fairly sure it is nowhere near as profitable nor important as being a programmer at google for instance.
Maybe you should earn more? stop trying to take away from others you pleb why is the first thing you go to is that others should be paid less than you? Do you even struggle at work. Get a new job.
$30/hour wage is trash for a mechanical engineer.
Go paint some signs and march around the block you fucken autists
Google is in the top 3 most profitable companies on the planet and has a hire rate of something like 3%. It's easier to be accepted at most ivy league schools than it is to be hired as a programmer for google. Your comparison is not even remotely reasonable.
Go pound dirt you worthless sperg.
>defending getting paid below the minimum average
thats pretty cucked
Not an argument
Video Games are not an important industry therefore they pay less
If you aren't doing it out of passion then find another job
That's not how wages are determined or how the job market works at all.
>hurr not an argument
Good luck paying your bills on passion.
Nobody is forcing them to stay there you dumb fuck
If its not enjoyable find a new job
I've changed professions 4 times and I'm only 25
I was a plasterer, a bricklayer, a machinist, and now i'm an engineer
If enough people quit then the wages will go up, easy
>tradie retard doesn't understand the job market
What a shock. No wonder your pay is dogshit.
>nobody is forcing them
the economy and available jobs says NO lol
You don't live in the real world my man
I mean it only took you how many years before you got an ok job?
Studios work on multiple games at once to get around the need to hire and fire constantly nowadays. Only QA tends to get super shafted like that but those cunts get paid overtime so fuck em
They either do that or fall behind. The restrictions are the only thing stopping them, or just some sort of penalty. They'll be totes okay if everyone else has to do it too.
>That's because you fucking retard they liquidate their staffs after the game is finished and shipped
Just saying, if you offer unstable jobs with poor conditions and non-competitive pay, don't be surprised when the only people applying to those jobs are all unskilled and underqualified.
I read that as him meaning an extra 2-3 hours that day
This would probably kill 90% of the current AAA industry though.
It only works for mobile games and that is mainly thanks to the fact that no one takes mobile gaming seriously, not even the consumers does. Why do you think that every time any AAA publishers tries their hand at mobile gaming it is always at the same time that they try to move development into china or india? Because they know that they can get away with a bad quality product as long as they milk the fuck out of it in the mobile industry.
But normal ''game'' consumers tastes are not as bad as your avarage mobile ''gaming'' consumers tastes and these consumers are limited in number which is why so many studios are tripping over themselves in an attempt at entering the mobile industry and making their own shitty clone of clash of clans or whatever. The only thing that matters in the mobile game industry is exposure, which is why it is so easy to exploit it.
>That's not how wages are determined
In 99.99% of cases it is
>Good luck paying your bills on passion.
Exactly, if its an issue, find a new career. Nobody has a gun to your head. You can literally quit, put an ad in the paper, and start painting houses for double the pay literally immediately. Most people are just far too lazy and apathetic to do so, instead they would rather complain and blame evil capitalists for making their life hard, even though the level of social and professional mobility available to them has never been higher at any point in history.
Talk about entitlement.
I work in the real world unlike you
If you cant get employed, start a business and employ yourself. Its not as hard as you would think. I know because I did it for 4 years, only reason I stopped was because of a back injury.
AAA studios outsource shit in console games to India all the time. Look at the credits
WITH WHAT MONEY BEN
FUCKING AQUA DOLLARS?
>This would probably kill 90% of the current AAA industry though.
Why is that a bad thing?
>with what money
Take a loan? Use credit? Save money like a sensible person instead of blowing it all on drugs and porn?
What fucking planet are you on that you think quitting a tech company to go paint houses is a viable career path.
>In 99.99% of cases it is
In literally 0% cases it is.
>hurr durr just quit
>muh entitlement.
Not an argument.
There's a reason why the Videogames industry is a cesspool of badpay, abuse and crap conditions.Like any passion driven industry, they exploit your desire to work in that industry. It's a passion tax. I dont want to be a dick but this is the same in a lot of passion related fields- like Pilots, 3D modeling, anything related to Art....you are abused by your passion.
I have a Media Arts and Animation degree. I started working for like 41k for a company in Florida, doing 3D modeling.Eventually, I quit that job, and now I work for a another major company making around 120k in the Bay Area.
As you can guess I no longer 3D model, I do QA and am learning programming. My current title is engineer. I do 3D modeling for fun now.
Why did I do this? I like Money.Passion doesnt feed you.
You’re either underage or retarded
Why isn't it? Plenty of people are career tradesmen and most of them earn more than PhDs do
>You can literally quit, put an ad in the paper, and start painting houses for double the pay literally immediately. Most people are just far too lazy and apathetic to do so,
Holy Boomer Batman!
Then how are wages determined genius? Why are bricklayers paid more than GPs?
I honestly have no sympathy for teachers in America that whine about their pay
>most of them are brainlets that became teachers because they couldn't get into law school (you see this in high school social sciences. especially)
>constantly bitch about how they're underpaid and overworked
>almost all are hardcore leftists
>encourage mass-immigration blindly, even though it overcrowds the schools they teach in and inflates property prices further
It's always fun to see Yea Forums shit on QA and then wonder why every other AAA game coming out is bugged to hell.
QA OT pay is like the equivalent of waiters earning tips. Except even waiters at high end restaurants make more with tips than your average QA grunt makes with OT
Holy NEET drug-addict batman!
Protip: The only thing holding you back from success is yourself
To be honest crunch is only a result of bad management and at a company that is part of a multibillion company where management gets paid out of the ass crunch shouldnt happen at all or management should be fired
You know I love bungie at Halo 3 and before. But after that it became corporate bootlicking trash. I actually wanted to work for Bungie at one point on my life.
My only experience of QA is Rockstar Leeds earning more pay than some of the fulltime workers because their OT compensation was really good. It was hell for both parties sure, but getting outearned by an unskilled tester monkey is a joke
>I have a Media Arts and Animation degree. I started working for like 41k for a company in Florida, doing 3D modeling.Eventually, I quit that job, and now I work for a another major company making around 120k in the Bay Area.
How hard it was to switch jobs like that? I mean 3D modeling got very little to do with QA and programming.
Well working full time for the length of a contract is fine
>have to sit at the computer and mash keyboard for more than eight hours a day
>uguu my life is so hard
Try a real job sometime, fucking nerds
Depends on the Company. Major techcompanies have actual QA engineering departments where they do regression tests and do serious QA and tests with hardware, collecting data in the field and stuff.I get paid a LOT for the QA work I do.
Videogame QA just seems to be the bitch of the group.
oh woe is me working at my air conditioned desk all day with other like-minded individuals.
>take out a loan
>also just run your own business :)
>BUT NOT ALL OF YOU ONLY JUST A SMALL PERCENTAGE otherwise everyone will just undercut you and the business will be non viable and aside from not making money you'll also be making NEGATIVE money from those loans
>also that will be one spine pls :^)
>did you think you could do this for the rest of your life? LUL
It's probably not the programmers complaining.
Crunch is inevitable when you've got a fixed deadline set by management. The video game industry is decades behind the rest of software engineering in their ways of working
Labor is a commodity dumbass. Whether you feel the job is of "importance" to society means fuckall, what matters is how large the pool of workers are vs how many jobs that are available.
Not easy. I'll be frank, changing careers does have it's negatives. you're starting from Zero, only buffered by the fact you're probably skilled at computers and have a degree.
BUt yeah, I started slowly. My first job a my company already made 50k, then in 4 years, I was at 66, and after getting my two year degree in prgramming, I got an career experience internship thing, and afterwards, job offers came, and landed me that 120k job.
ALthough in the Bay area, it isnt as much as it seems.You're not suffering though.You're in that middle class bracket where you got money.
Its very obvious you have no idea what starting and running a business entails nor how it actually works
You're a perfect example of why most people cant do it themselves
this post is proof that you have no idea how anything actually works out side of your bubble and have never had to struggle in life and had everything handed to you
And what determines how many job positions there are you colossal dumb fuck?
>The only thing holding you back from success is yourself Just pull yourself by your bootstraps, get a second job, look your next boss in the eyes and give him a firm handshake or start your own business.
The funny thing is your IQ is lower than your average drug-addled tweeker. You're literally less unaware and retarded than the average NEET.
The demand from the companies you collosal mouth breathing mongoloid?. Now go get your handler before you start drooling on yourself.
Only if compensation matches full time for the length of that contract.
Not him, but I will agree that 'Success' is literally just limited by how much effort , research and work you're willing to put in over a large amount of time.
I managed to claw my way out of working at a fucking restaurant, making NOTHING, to get a degree in IT and making enough money to buy a house.
It can be done. Now, honestly, I'm chilling. I could work harder and aim for corporate, but honestly? I'm taking a vacation.
>there are only private sector jobs
>put an ad in the paper
>muh entitled millennials
Unironic boomers should be banned on Yea Forums
>being a government leech
I inherited 300 grand debt from my father when he died when I was 17. I now own a property that makes me money by simply existing.
I have a median IQ of 139 and I'm in my second year of bachelor of mechanical engineering
Also as I previously stated I owned my own plastering business for 4 years, which was very sucessful and allowed me to develop my fathers property and sell it, paying off the debt I owed and I was able to buy a new property with my own cash and rent it out.
Sounds to me like you're jealous.
And what causes an increase in demand sonny?
Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
The problem is not the fixed time.
The problem is that managers in video games actually have no idea about software project management. Like, they first use incremental/evolutionary development in 2008 for underspecified parts and act like its a fucking new invention and hasnt been around since the fucking spiral model in the 80s.
>Success' is literally just limited by how much effort , research and work you're willing to put in over a large amount of time.
Or you could just network, get a cushy job and skip all that bullshit. Hell, you don't even need the job part just do the research and learn how to invest. Work smart not hard.
>Dozens of peer reviewed studies vs one user
Which wins?
>getting fooled by debt collecting company
>iq of 139
LOL
>unironically bragging about your IQ on 4channel
Now this is just sad.
Now that we've reached the final stage of your cope I'll call it a day
Yeah, starting from Zero is the thing that really scares me. And probably the fact that there's a lot of interesting people in gemedev in general too. Guess I just love being around creatives.
But the "below industry average" salary for programmers in gamedev is kind of demotivating sometimes.
Why would I be jealous of a knuckledragger on Yea Forums who is completely out of touch with the modern world and blogposts to try and give credibility to his incredibly retarded opinions?
>gets btfo
check mate
>get accused of having low IQ
>state my actual IQ
>this is not allowed on Yea Forums
most profitable, but devs wont actually see that money.
Because I'm smarter and more sucessful than you and I dont have to whine about capitalism all day to feel good?
Correct. Thanks for playing.
Good night folks!
>>paid extremely well
lmao no making games is a job you do cause you love that shit not because you want to get rich.
>t. dev.
>And what causes an increase in demand sonny?
The fucking buisness you mongoloid. Holy shit read a book for once in your life.
Work sucks but if you never sacrifice your well being to move up the ladder, then you'll never get anywhere in life.
Sorry zoomer college kiddies.
Trying to unironically cite an IQ as your own in order to win an internet argument on Yea Forums is an indicator of low IQ.
The success of an industry or business you mean
You're trying very hard to avoid using that word
Having worked in the Videogame industry (now in QA Engineering) and having a Wife who's a teacher I can confidently say you dont know SHIT.
The Videogame industry pays, on average, 15-20% less on equivalent positions. They often dont even bother headhunting - they are drowning in applications from desperate passionate folk, while your XYZ corporations have to like bait their jobs with massive bonuses and shit to get people to stay.
People here dont seem to live in reality or something.
>people shitting on teaching AND game dev
Those were my two career paths I was deciding between....which one would be better for someone who just wants a simple peaceful life?
where are my REAL WORLD bros at
FUCK bubble plebs
>Having worked in the Videogame industry (now in QA Engineering) and having a Wife who's a teacher I can confidently say you dont know SHIT.
Lol get a load of this seething noskills
And you're trying very hard to move the goalposts.
Success != Importance in this context. Just because a highly successful film studio makes millions of dollars and can afford to expand and hire more doesn't suddenly make film more important than say, a utility company.
It still won't solve the fucking problem. Let's break this down in an easy manner so that you can understand.
For the sake of the argument, there exists 100 vidya companies in the world. No more, no less. If one dies, another rises to take its place.
Now the real crux of the problem comes from the fact that 70 out of these 100 companies exploit their workforce and the industry as a whole for various reasons (Monetray gain, sociopathic tendencies, lack of knowledge/experience, etc). That leaves only 30 ''good'' companies to compete with these 70 ''bad'' companies. Even if we break our argumentative rule and allow more companies to exist, for some reason (as seen with practical example from real world companies that exists today) more ''bad'' companies will always exist and the industry as a whole is just too large for 30% of its employers to carry that ''ethical'' burden, no matter how hard they try.
So the ONLY way to make it better for EVERYONE in the industry, is too regulate it with either outside force or for the industry to regulate itself, which as stated has not happened and probably never will happend becuase the minority does not have enough power to influance the majority. The only other way that the industry might be able to fix this is with a total collapse since that would mean that the people who are actually pulling the strings of the industry and enforcing these rules on it would scatter like cockroaches, but it would also hurt everyone and anyone who is currently in the industry and trying their best to make it better or your avarage joe who is just trying to make a living.
>>Take job at AAA developer
>>Surprised when you have to work hard
You have to be both stupid and american to think that crunch should be fine.
Crunch in the game industry is both a failiure of the management and companies abusing people's passion.
>They should feel grateful they earn a living making video games of all things
Spoken like one of these moronic companies.
If you think for even a second shit like 100 hours work weeks should be fine then you should try doing that yourself for a couple of months and see how awesome it is.
>get shot
or
>never get to go home
teach indie devs but you need to work on your indian accent
The fact that you have to whine about entitled employees all day on a mongolian bread baking forum to feel good proves you are neither of those things.
How is Hollywood not an important industry when its one of the highest grossing in the US?
>if you never sacrifice your well being to move up the ladder, then you'll never get anywhere in life.
Only rubes actually fall for this.
I will never not be reminded of the article on Andromeda where is basically said half the team couldn't code on DICE's equipment and that was the reason there moral was too low to continue to work on the game, talk about privilege.
Good luck watching your hollywood movies without any electricity.
>Crunch in the game industry is both a failiure of the management and companies abusing people's passion.
This. If they had any fucking discipline and good milestones, they wouldn't have endless bantam death marches of crunch. There would always be crunch because of unforseen things, but it would be the last 2-3 months, not 18 months of hell
>waaaah work is hard and stuffs :(((
>Wow, you're an amazing employee! Here's your promotion!
This is a stupid idea because you're taking a passive hands off approach to change. Basically running away or doing nothing while expecting things to improve.
Basically instead of actively trying to make it better and solve the issue, like a juvenile you're saying that you shouldn't even try, so just give up.
>dude just sacrifice your well being and destroy your personal life and MAYBE we'll give you a promotion in a few years
>whoops we gotta let you go but I'm sure you can just find another job :)
Open architecture workspaces are fucking garbage for actual work, but the panoptic feeling it gives middle managers and supervisors ensures they'll never go away, no matter how many studies claim OA space fucks up productivity.
You cracked the CODE, man! Discipline and Milestoning, the core principles of organization!
HOLY SHIT, WHY HAVENT THEY THOUGHT OF THIS?
Newsflash.
Corporations have guys who do this stuff. Obviously there's something about the videogame industry that lends itself to this shit.
>destroy your personal life
Construction workers and even truck drivers have a harder job; don't be a fucking drama queen over having to sit in front of a computer for an extra hour or so.
This is how it should work and actually how it works when you work for a competent company that actually have bosses that knows how to manage both the financials of the company and the time of their workers.
Sadly, most companies are run by incompetent people that have no idea how the actual ''work'' is supposed to be done. So they take shortcuts and look to other industry giants to make their points instead of actually understanding how shit gets done. That and some are just so blinded by greed that no matter how many times they fail they will still try to force their perspective since they ''learned'' somewhere that it was the fastest way too success and money.
The intent isn't to change or improve, it's to protect the status quo and deflect culpability towards everyone, especially workers away from their bosses.
That's not how it works and you sound like someone that hasn't actually worked a day in their lives.
Hard work has nothing to do with it, it's far more social and psychological. Tons of idiots slave away at their works thinking that so long as they work hard that promotion will come. But it won't. Because that's not how it works.
If I even have to explain to you why it doesn't work then we shouldn't even be having this discussion.
>dude there are starving kids in africa you can't complain about being exploited at work its just sitting at a computer
Construction workers literally have a union and truck drivers just sit and drive all day and are on the chopping block due to automation
>other jobs are shit too, so let's not try to make them all better
Megatard.
Busting your ass for a company can be a bit foolish in this day and age where there's not much loyalty and you're expendable just because they can try to get an Indian to do your job.
>The intent isn't to change or improve, it's to protect the status quo
Probably because in other tech fields they don't treat coders like exchange-able parts. Literally everyone who works in gaming and then works in a professional field outside of it, usually doing the same work, says that the conditions are way fucking better in other industries. Vidya treats it's product and the people who make it with contempt, it's toy executives cranking out shit to hook the kids. Very few people who are executives in Vidya actually have any background or interest in Vidya, it's all bankers and accountants and investment brokers.
At least sleazeball producers know film usually.
No one in their right mind and worth their salt would ever want to Bioware after the employee burnout that been happening since Dragon Age 2, but of course Yea Forums still can't figure out why only naive sjw college kids are the only ones willing to work there.
Yeah, but they have yet to outsource entire games to that hellhole. And they few that have been completely outsourced have always failed thanks to the end product being complete shit.
>tfw we could be mining platinum in asteroids with robots but first we have to break our backs and walk to work 100 miles BOTH ways before anyone is allowed to have anything nice
its not fucking fair bros
It's not, but I'd like to think that the AAA industry has enough actually smart people still left at the top for them to understand why it would be a bad idea. We have enough moneychasing retards in this industry and every other industry already.
>Obviously there's something about the videogame industry that lends itself to this shit.
Lends itself to what? Crunch? If this is your answer then you don't understand the problem at all.
The issue is, it's not an extra hour or two, but something like 12 hr shifts 6 days a week.
I work in AAA development. There's multiple issues that come into picture for crunch work. Just like how film deadlines sometimes have a due date that's not reasonable, so you have to do more work in a short span so only a select people can meet maximum profits by that date. They don't understand how much work it takes to make these games, especially to be bug free by the date it's going to be published. Considering how bugs can make the game suffer with poor reviews. Many games are being built on engines that can barely do what the less technical team wants. While working this hard many companies hire dozens of juniors while the seniors have to help them out so the product isn't a bust - They're typically hired to be paid lower so the cost of the team isn't too pricey, yet may be less polished. Juniors, petty HR department, sociopathic bosses - Many of those things make it more difficult to do your own job. In return of weeks of doing these tasks with a low pay, it does burn you out. All of this is so the select few can make a lot of money, while the rest of the team doesn't, but at the same time making games are expensive so it's understandable to cut as much cost thinking in those terms. Not all studios do crunch, but those that do I notice a lot of the team gets replaced. At the moment many major studios are losing out on talents for McWorkers in return for these issues. I wrote this all without much revision so I hope it's thorough enough to make sense.
0/10
Be more subtle next time
You're the retard. I didn't like several of my jobs and I quit and got a new one.
Gee I wonder why, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the decisions of AAA companies and their practices.
But of course it's no surprise the people defending workers getting shit on don't give a flying fuck about game quality.
Unlike making furniture and clothing after a blueprint or some shit, videogames are a creative industry and you can't just outsource it to whothefuckever.
Otherwise you're saying that who the devs are doesn't matter, which I can guarantee is 100% something you truly don't agree with.
Like taking your favorite videogames then give them to underpaid coders in india or whatever and ask them to make the next game/sequel. Do you expect said games to be on par or better with the prior game?
Thanks for proving you're a retard.
you cant point at bad management for not knowing how long a dev project is going to take when even they dont know how long it'll take. The fact of the matter is if you work a high stress high profile job in media you bring your A game every day and you work late or else you'll just get stepped on and replaced. You need a high level work ethic.
we don't care that you went from burger king to mcdonalds m80
I should note how the people who make the game are generally good people. So shit like the Andromeda controversy was never their fault; there's usually 1-3 people to blame for that. The people who don't want to listen yet want an original, fun, over ambitious game to be made in as little time as possible.
This post will be ignored
>12 hours 6 days a week sitting on your ass in front of a computer
This is literally what privilege looks like.
Oh, I know. It's still fun to excercise my thoughts.
>an extra hour or so.
How in the fuck do 70 and 100 hour work weeks translate to "an extra hour or so". How fucking ignorant can you be?
Just 70 hour work weeks result in
>14 hour 5 day workweek
or
>10 hour 7 day workweeks
Then we're not just talking a single week, or two. But this going on for months and months. Possibly even years.
Depends what you're doing. I used to do full stack web development. Shit was easy as hell. An average high schooler could probably do it. Now I'm doing shit with a company doing machine learning and it is really fucking complex. You actually have to have a grasp of linear algebra to even start.
Nothing wrong with racism
Determining how long it will take and making contingency plans is literally part of project management. The fact of the matter is if you can't properly manage your employees and create stressful deadlines and demand they work late for months at a time then the quality of their output will suffer, especially when nearly every other sector in the tech industry has higher compensation for those who have an A game and high level work ethic.
>v thinks it knows about labor laws
>v has never had a job before
literally kekking rn
I'm god awful at math - is there any hope for me in programming / coding?
>If you cant get employed, start a business and employ yourself.
>put an ad in the paper, and start painting houses
>Go paint some signs and march around the block
Real Boomer Hours, who up?
I want to keep my spine ;_;
>labor laws
That's communism. If you don't like your job just quit.
I’m a mid level dev at a moderately popular studio and my life is ok. 80k, decent PDO, at 30 (boomer) years old I’m happy considering I have 0 programming or modeling experience.
>you cant point at bad management for not knowing how long a dev project is going to take when even they dont know how long it'll take
You can absolutely point to bad management, because that's precisely what it is.
It's their job to MANAGE the project and make sure this shit doesn't happen. There's a reason why agile development like Scrum is used.
But the problem isn't with the devs, but the people above the devs that don't know wtf they're doing and don't care if they slave away 70+ hours every week while they have a dinner party on their yacht.
We're talking suits that come in mid-to-late development and tell the devs to basically rework the entire game to include aliens as the primary enemy for Red Faction Armageddon because saw a movie with aliens in it and think that will result in more sales.
I'm not even fucking kidding here, that actually happened. These are the people that need to change or be replaced, but they never are because they're in such a high position that they never feel the consequences. It's always the devs that get cut instead.
Programming languages like Python and Java dont really require too much math. But the demands for more and more math do get higher and higher the more complex work you do. I just do scripts for automation at wotk, so I dont need fucking high end crap.
>you cant point at bad management for not knowing how long a dev project is going to take when even they dont know how long it'll take.
That's literally their job to figure out.
Don't let these cucks dissuade you. I'm a Game Designer and I enjoy most of my time at work. I don't rake in the cash but I get to work on things I care about and the people I work with are really some of the most interesting and entertaining people I've ever met. Not every game dev does insane crunch, and if it's only for a little while, 2 to 6 weeks I'd say, it's pretty manageable.
I would love to earn more money but I actually quit a job where I earned more to do this and my general life satisfaction is way up. I really wouldn't trade this. So yeah just go for what you wanna do.
how’d you get the job?
It comes down to what you want to do.
Are you just intrested in making games with engines like UE4 or Unity? Go nuts with it, it's mostly just scripting (unless you want to do some complex stuff) and is more akin to learning a language than learning how too math. If you want to be an industry leader and rub elbows with people like elon musk you will have to be somewhere close too 180+ IQ and a math wizard to do anything.
80k in gamedev at the ripe young age of 30? (thirty) are you a native hawaiian american dodecatuple subtransgenderfluid african haitian samoan american fem(it was her turn!!!)ale with an associates in computer science or wat lmeo
Biggest lie in the thread.
luck, i had a career in health care and wrote as a hobby. ended up making a shit tier indy game and conned my way into a legit job. that being said, I wish I was still a PA-C prescribing niggers doxycycline for 150k/yr lmao
Threads like these makes me wonder if most of you have even worked a single day in your lives. Especially OP.
Sorry bucko, but if you never sacrifice your well being and personal health to achieve success, then you'll never get anywhere in life.
The only thing holding you back from success is yourself. When I was your age I paid for my college tuition with my summer job and by the time I was 23 I had bought my own house for $25k and owned my own business after working a trade 3 years.
It can be done, all you have to do is pull yourself up by your bootstraps and take some personal responsibility, son.
In software engineering you plan out your features, estimate the time it takes, allocate resources and get it done. Sometimes things take longer than expected but at the end of the day there's a plan that you don't really deviate from.
In games there's the potential that things just aren't fun. The gamemode is crap and needs overhauling, publishers demand you put a battle royale mode in, the guns take longer to balance than expected etc. The artistic subjective stuff in games is really hard to concretely plan around, so it's easy to end up in a situation where the game has been made exactly to plan but neeew extra work to make it actually fun.
>zoomers working for literal boomers
why did anyone think this would work? zoomers are some of the laziest niggers, thanks to their millennial parents. some 22-24 year old thinking he can handle boomer work load is laughable.
The problem is with management thinking they can accurately predict a gamedev cycle. You can't. It's like a weather forecast. You can try and be more accurate, but making a good game is a process of experimentation and you will either have a good game or a game that ships on time, very rarely both. This is unacceptable to managers though so we end up with crunch time. Agile and Scrum is for normal software development, pretty much irrelevant for video games, programming is only a third of the equation. It's not mismanagement, it's the fact games are impossible to schedule
>Neglecting to mention the high as fuck failure rate of these ''tradesmen''
I'm not saying that it does not happend, what I am saying is that you would probably have a better chance at winning the lottery than successfully making such a drastic change in your career without either wanting to kill yourself or manage to get out of dept while doing it.
>hurr durr the new generation is just lazy my generation worked harder for our money!
Lucky duck. I wanna be a character designer but my art sucks. Maybe I’ll luck my way into it.
Also you're not making anywhere close to a software dev (outside the game industry) as a trade worker unless you're a foreman or above or own the business
>it's the fact games are impossible to schedule
I think that most of that fact is tied to the fact that trying lead a workforce of 300-500+ people is almost impossible.
There is a reason as to why older games came out faster and didn't burn out nearly as many developers. Not trying to completely shift the blame here, but most of upper managment in this industry is filled with incompetent kids and boomers who barely talk to the lead developers and don't care that their product is growing out of proportions faster than they can manage it.
>Sorry bucko, but if you never sacrifice your well being and personal health to achieve success, then you'll never get anywhere in life.
You're just an idiot.
The key to work smarter, not harder. Fucking yourself over is not the key to success, that's only what people that got lucky and had success happen to them while they broken themselves think. Because they can't make the mental connection to what the key actually was.
It's one of the biggest misconceptions people have today. Especially in america. The idea that hard work leads to success.
Success comes from your social capabilities and how well you understand the market and psychology of people.
Video game devs are literally slaves.
Try working at a restaurant, where you actually have to do something those 12 hours, 6 days a week, instead of watching youtube playlists and drinking monster
Art is actually the best way to get into the industry. You will never rise within the company you join but you can carefully pad your resume and find a creative slot somewhere else if you try hard. If I could do it all over again, I would have latched onto some indie shit company and carried it to moderate popularity.
Oh, so you're one of these incompetent managers that now seeks to deflect. Pretending it's out of your control?
Also
>Agile and Scrum is for normal software development, pretty much irrelevant for video games
Absolutely fucking retarded. It's becoming more and more common to use agile development for PRECISELY the fucking reason you're crying about. You gigantic idiot.
If you can't manage the product development and it leads to constant and extrem crunch then the fact of the matter is that YOU failed. Not the devs. YOU.
Your job is to constantly be in touch and understand the development, so you know what to prioritize, what to cut, etc. Taking an active role and having good understanding of the development process.
>I think that most of that fact is tied to the fact that trying lead a workforce of 300-500+ people is almost impossible.
It's not. You can lead a workforce of any size with a hierarchy of management. Games are just extremely hard to predict because they're complex and creative. It's not like a movie where you write the script then go shoot. When you're making a game you're doing everything at once and remaking the whole thing as you go, all the time
Older games came out faster because they were simpler to make. They burnt out as much people as they did today. Probably more honestly. You just didn't hear about it. Management being incompetent is par for the course in any organization, if anything I would say management in gamedev is alot better than most other industries. It just doesn't look that way to an outsider because all you see are the results and failures. The truth is games are extremely complicated to make. Most good, successful studios have managers who know what they're doing and actual boomers in the industry are rare, seniors are usually gen Xers
It is quite possible.
I wouldn't be surprised if older video game devs move to other companies in different domains like banking and insurance, they can make more money there.
If their passion and enthusiasm is sucked dry as is the case with embittered veterans then at that point if you had a choice between slaving away for less money or more money it is an easy choice.
(((agile))) (((scrum))) unironically kill yourself
Why am I an idiot? Because I worked hard to have a secure healthy life? Maybe you should consider getting a real job.
The key to Success is literally just determined by how much effort , research and work you're willing to put in over a large amount of time.
I managed to claw my way out of working as a jizz mopper, making NOTHING, to get a degree in business management and making enough money to buy my own yacht.
It can be done obviously. Most kids your age are just far too lazy and apathetic to do so, instead they would rather complain and blame evil capitalists for making their life hard, while drinking fancy Starbucks lattes and buying the latest iPhone every month. Talk about entitlement.
Well that’s a game plan that’s worth a shot. I’m gonna work to improve my shit for rest of summer while I got the free time, so I can get a good foot in. Good talk user
>being a code monkey requires ANY original thought
>Success comes from your social capabilities and how well you understand the market and psychology of people.
The sad truth. I've seen a ton of people wiggle their way into key positions in a company, starting from zero, just because they're good at talking and telling other people what they want to hear. Then, when it comes time for the hard work part, they're nowhere to be found. But even after destroying the whole shit through their lack of experience and ability, they still manage to present themselves as tragic heroes that no one can blame, and walk away with a load of money.
Probably not what you were after, but that's the thing. Hard work is needed for success, but of course, you'd be stupid to do it yourself. That's the mentality being promoted these days.
Are you a game developer or are you just talking out your ass? Nobody uses shit like agile for game development. Game development isn't software development. I am a manager, but I manage with no schedules, no deadlines and no crunch. I have worked under schedules and crunch and I'm telling you exactly why it doesn't work
>project manager refusing to take responsibility for crunch
It's like pottery
I've never even gotten an interview, just a shit load of rejection letters. I'd take on any of their workloads in a heartbeat.
yes
all game devs should quit, so these companies go out of business
>There is a reason as to why older games came out faster and didn't burn out nearly as many developers.
But that's wrong. Crunch was very real back in the day.
Fallout 1 was basically mostly made on crunch
Sure that's shit too. But try doing hard math, problem solve and go through an endless list of bugs to fix and also develop/change new things that pop up that higher ups demand during those same work hours. See how well you manage that.
You sound like someone that works at a shit job but then doesn't understand another job so you think it consits of people jacking off and sleeping by their PCs.
Using your same logic and ignorance I would accuse you of that person just jacks off in the kitchen while re-heating frozen shit they bought in. Spending most of their time on their phones. But I don't.
>Game development isn't software development
Video games are literally software.
VIdeo games are one third software development (programming), one third artwork, and one third game design. Agile and scrum and management strategies for producing software that is 100% programming. Totally non-applicable
>people think this warrants complaint
Love to see you niggers crack a tour out.
Speak english jamal
shut down your business if you don't like workers uniting
>Nobody uses shit like agile for game development.
In what dimension is this? It's extremely common in europe.
Where do you work? The US? Are you really that far behind?
Also, you're claiming that it's not the managements fault when crunch is precisely the failiure of the management.
We're not talking a few hours of overtime here and there. That's not crunch. We're talking when it regularly stretches beyond 40 hour work weeks. Especially once it crosses that 70 hour mark.
If your're seriously telling me that management has no hand in that and it's completely out of your control you're delusional.
>Not an argument.
Correct, it's a statement of fact. Nobody owes you a thing, faggot.
Never forget
>can't blame project managers for not managing the project
Wew.
you could say that about almost every software industry. websites involve design and art and yet they work exceptionally well with agile
Game dev is the laughing stock of software precisely because you're all 30 years behind everyone else in practices
>It's extremely common in europe.
For what? Mobile games? Nobody uses agile in real games that I've heard of. The few people I've heard about who tried it said it sucked, obviously. All the biggest and best studios crunch. I'm not saying that like it's a good thing, I'm just stating it as a matter of fact. The only studios with good working conditions are privately owned ones who don't have deadlines to meet and can take as long as they want
Sounds like you're just a jealous commie. The job market a meritocracy, qualification and ability is how you make yourself valuable as a worker. If you are the best worker they have and the lynchpin of their operation, you have more leverage than Timmy Parttime who is essentially seat filler.
It's a statement of retardation, same as
>hurr durr nobody owes you a thing faggot
entire concept of wrongful entitlement is a spook, a farce. Consumers will want quality, employees want compensation and companies want cheap labor and high profit. Complaining about this simple fact of life is like complaining that competing politicians air attack ads against each other. you're trying to invoke some set of rules that don't exist in reality. Ultimately this "muh entitlement" and "you're just spoiled" shit is completely meaningless. It means absolutely nothing.
A website is designed to meet a spec. It's not really comparable. When you make a game you have to build an enormously complex piece of software, and THEN play around with it and find out of it's any fun or not. Game dev isn't software. It's only part software. Saying it's the "laughing stock of software" doesn't sound like anything except people jealous they dont get to work on fun things for a living
>Agile and scrum and management strategies for producing software that is 100% programming
In what dimension did you hear this? You can just fucking google or youtube this shit if you're so out of touch with reality.
Even fucking that askgamedev twitter account should be able to answer this shit if you're so massively out of touch.
This is becoming more and more standard for years now.
>Correct, it's a statement of fact.
It's actually neither of those things.
>Older games came out faster because they were simpler to make.
I don't really know if I agree with you. Sure, they were easier to make thanks to the lack of ''graphics'' but the coding aspects seems to have been harder thanks to more limited tools available to the developers at the time and more complicated hardware/code (at the time) with less documentation.
What probably did make it a lot easier was the fact that teams rearely got larger than 100 people and everyone was specialized at doing one or a few things. They would also probably spend a hell of a lot less time on ''graphics'' since the hardware was just not able to display it. That is where the 300-500+ teams seems to stem from today. A lot of the coding work seems to have become easier thanks to large technolagical advances with the tools they are using and the hardware they are using it on, but the ''graphics'' seems to have become almost impossibly complex and timeconsuming. That and the nightmare which is ''feature creep'' seems to be more prevalent in the industry now more than ever. All while the industry is still demanding the same output of quality products that we had back in the day.
Game development has become more complex in some areas but way too complex in others and nothing seems to be done about it. The natural answear would be something like more game with smaller scopes but the industry is still trying it's hardest to be bigger and more complex while cutting every corner imaginalbe and trying to also grow their winnings at the same time. If you want a good example of this just look at a game like Undertale and compare it to the latest stuff that Acti-Blizz is shitting out and you will see that the proportional success seems to be WAY off. One game took 3-5 years to make by a single guy and was a massive proportional success, the other was in limbo for 1-2 years and was then rushed out in under 3 years with a crew of 300+ people while having less proportional success.
>you have to build an enormously complex piece of software
>and THEN play around with it and find out of it's any fun or not
>Game dev isn't software
All of that is part of software dev.
Why can't they make their own studio and games?
Plenty of indie developers do it
You should open up a dictionary and check the difference between "want" and "entitlement". As this seems to be a major stumbling block for all your talking points, I strongly feel it will help you sound like less of an idiot in future conversations.
>I don't really know if I agree with you. Sure, they were easier to make thanks to the lack of ''graphics'' but the coding aspects seems to have been harder
well it doesn't matter if you agree with me, you're wrong, games are about ten times more complex to program now, that's just a fact
You can't do anything about it. People want complex games that look nice and have amazing animation and interactivity. You can make simplier games I guess
I didn't "hear" it anywhere, that's my own opinion through experience
whoops
so you build it and then iteratively improve it based on feedback and results? thats literally the whole point of agile you idiot.
>For what? Mobile games?
No, AAA to indie console/PC games.
> All the biggest and best studios crunch.
Wrong.
More and more studios avoid this. Sony studios don't, Nintendo studios don't, Insomniac doesn't, Swedish studios doesn't (they can't, by law), etc.
Most of the ones that crunch as located in the US and owned by shit companies like EA, ActivisonBlizzard or other terrible ones.
You're just making it more and more clear that you're probably just a nobody manager that really doesn't know anything at all about the game industry.
I don't know how it works in the gaming industry but in other domains as a contractor you get higher pay instead of benefits like vacation leave and sick leave.
If you take as much unpaid leave as a full time employee you'd be at a disadvantage since your contract can expire and not be renewed.
Some contractors get payed phat moolah but are usually the first to go when people get put on the chop chop block, I've seen it first hand.
Your rights depend on your government's laws, where I live as a full time employee you'd get the rest of your year's pay if you were to be terminated with a few exceptions.
As a contractor you don't get that, it is higher risk but the pay is better if you know what you are doing, have good negotiation skills, and are able to secure contracts quickly.
Other software doesn't have to be "fun", it has to do the job
>I didn't "hear" it anywhere, that's my own opinion through experience
In other words, you're just ignorant and live in a bubble.
>Why is nobody talking about the point that crunch is not only unavoidable
It certainly avoidable, but people don't want to not chit chat and have 100 meetings a week. There is also that smoke break faggot who leaves every thirty minutes and idiots who crunch too early and tire themselves out to the point they end up doing half the work of a fresh worker the next week.
Some of them do, but if you want a stable job and secure income without rolling the dice and hoping your indie game is a hit in a market flooded with indie games, you're usually better off just getting a job in an adjacent industry because those jobs generally pay more and have better benefits and working conditions.
>Sony studios don't
I know for a fact they do, or have done I should say
>The job market a meritocracy, qualification and ability is how you make yourself valuable as a worker
You have to be literally twelve to believe that. Your ability to make yourself look valuable is what makes you valuable, it's that simple. People lie their resumes, lie about their experience, and no one gives a fuck. People on the average are scared of confrontation. Once you have a job, it's too much of a hassle to fire you anymore, so they just suffer you. How many people do you know who think their co-workers are competent? NOT FUCKING ONE
Even if you do get fired, it doesn't matter. Now you have a big name on your resume to show to the next dumbass. "Oh, he worked THERE? this guy's hot!" The whole working life is a retarded farce
A game's job is to be fun. Designing software to be entertaining doesn't mean its' no longer software development.
look at all of those people not doing shit
entrepreneur.com
I live in the bubble of having to direct games which is better than the bubble of "heres some shit I heard on the internet" everyone else is living in
I feel better having not bought a full priced game in years.
Even worse when games aren't even updated.
Lack of a safety net I’m guessing. Imagine working your ass off to get into the vidya industry in the first place, then toy with idea of starting your own studio and risk your financial security because your current jobs sucky management is killing you.
>So employers, take note. Cube farms could be—and probably are—hurting you more than they’re helping you. Giving your employees a distraction-free work environment, whatever that looks like, in which they can thrive professionally is a win-win situation.
So basically cubicles suck, open area suck, and employers are too cheap for real offices even if they assign 2-3 people per area.
>I live in the bubble of having to direct games which is better than the bubble of "heres some shit I heard on the internet" everyone else is living in
Uh huh. So now you're saying you're a game director and exclaim that it's not your fault if the production ends up in crazy crunch?
Holy fucking shit that's hilarious if true. Like how fucking delusional can you be?
Also, it's nice you make it clear you're not only ignorant and close-minded, but also judgemental since you exclaim that you're some super knowledgeable manager (director) that knows precisely how the gaming industry works yet no one else knows jack shit and only "reads stuff off the internet".
Just leave, you have nothing to contribute to either this thread or game development as a whole. In fact the way you're talking you're one of the problems.
It's difficult to explain
Game development is a mix of short iterations and extremely long iterations
It's hard to fit it all under the umbrella of "agile software development"
some parts are agile, some parts are the total opposite
There isn't a single game that's "complete" or bug free.
Their productivity is overwhelmingly due to systems that they merely operate. It's the difference between being the lynchpin and a cog, and the workers we are discussing are mass produced cogs.
even outside of the meritocracy there is genuine merit to being difficult to replace that is basically the ENTIRE reason anybody gets paid more than the absolute minimum in the first place. The workers and their overlords, are not interested in valuing you as a human being, you are a meat robot. You either get leverage or you settle for the garbage you get fed
I didn't say I was a "game director" because that implies some sort of pompousness like I'm in charge of a big studio. I'm not. And I've never made anyone crunch, like I already said. I just said the reason crunch EXISTS is because the typical management model is incompatible with the best practices for game development.
>Shit on me for being ''wrong'' while crying about how hard games are to make NOW
>I didn't "hear" it anywhere, that's my own opinion through experience
Ok faggot, be like that then. All of the industries problems stem from the fact that managment can't for the life of them actually MANAGE game development but instead of replacing them or trying to make their jobs easier we should just accept the fact that we MUST make impossibly ''complex'' games that barely hold a candle in complexity of code or game design to any RPG released in the 90s. Fuck sake, even if the game is more ''complex'' than these game, if the end user NEVER gets to see/use these improvements or it makes it easier for the workforce then why the fuck should we even make it more complex in the first place?
Being complex to program doesn't excuse the failure those who's job is to manage the project.
>japanese studios don't have crunch
that's the normal working conditions for japan though
>some parts are agile, some parts are the total opposite
No you gigantic shitsnorting idiot. You're talking about "Epic" user stories.
You seriously don't know wtf you're talking about at all. Did you just do a quick google search and skimmed through some wiki page?
Different user, give me an example.
In my work place we have epics which can be huge and contain multiple stories that can be completed in a single sprint.
I don't think everything needs to be done in an agile manner, waterfall is quite organized and can be very good if the requirements do not change very often.
You have to realize a lot of US management got their position because they are relatives, bought their way through school, or have seniority. You're 100% right about incompetence in management. Their are times where they'll ask you to do something completely opposite of what you need to do simply to show higher ups all the different kinds of work happening, to stroke their own ego and vision, or because they got the wrong directions.
The end user gets to see the fancy graphics that they paid 60 bucks for with their season pass that took hundreds of people years in shitty working conditions to create. That's the game industry. People want these games, that's why they make them. The crunch problem stems from the fact that game development is treated like an industrial process rather than a creative one. Don't get mad at me, I don't do any of this shit
>T. Closeted slavemaster
I've never used agile. Nobody I know uses agile. I'm not familiar with the terms. I'm vaguely familiar with what it is. The only people I've heard of using it haven't said anything good about it. To me it sounds like an overly structured way to do something that desperately needs LESS structure. By all means change my mind by sharing your experience
>the reason crunch EXISTS is because the typical management model is incompatible with the best practices for game development.
That's wrong.
The fact that you're also exclaiming that an agile approach to development doesn't work (and even more hilariously, claims it isn't used) is precisely because you NEED to be more agile in your management of a game production. You need to take a constant and active role. BECAUSE you might need to change and adapt your schedule, workload, etc. during production. PRECISELY LIKE IN AGILE DEVELOPMENT.
I'm done trying to talk sense into such a gigantic close-minded and ignorant idiot that thinks he knows shit when he really doesn't know fucking anything at all about the industry he indirectly and directly claims to be an expert in.
>that's the normal working conditions for japan though
Not for Nintendo.
It's not normal to take pay cuts for the higher ups and shit for big companies, yet Nintendo do it.
When was the last time the CEO of EA or ActivisinBlizzard took a pay cut to avoid firing game devs? The answer is never.
It doesn't matter what approach you use when the person giving your studio money is saying "we need this done at X date or it's over". That's why crunch exists
Imagine wanting to be a game dev in AAA of all things. Is there any AAA left that doesn’t treat their employees (the one actually making the games, those worthless businesses and management positions always have it easy.) like shit?
>The end user gets to see the fancy graphics that they paid 60 bucks for with their season pass that took hundreds of people years in shitty working conditions to create.
This is true, but fuck man, I'll never understand why more AAA game developers notice that good graphics does not make a good game or even an successfull one. Just look at games like Crysis 2/3, Andromeda, Anthem, etc and you will notice that none of their ''graphics'' did anything to save their investments, it only made it worse.
>That's the game industry. People want these games, that's why they make them.
I think that it is mostly thanks to hype, as seen with a lot of the shittiest games released these last two generations. ''What? The game fucking sucks? GIVE MORE MONEY TO OUR PR/HR/AD AGENCY!'' Some of the ''worst'' games from that generation still managed to make a profit. All thanks to hype. The thing about this is that most people don't actually want these products, but they are tricked into buying/wanting them thanks too hype.
>The crunch problem stems from the fact that game development is treated like an industrial process rather than a creative one. Don't get mad at me, I don't do any of this shit
I got mad at you becuase you seemed to be an arrogant prick, but for what it's worth. Sorry.
Also, yes! That seems to be the problem with game development, the industry bigwigs are all too busy looking to sell a tool/toy rather than a piece of ''art'', so they are all just cahsing trends and cutting corners without actually understanding what makes a good game ''good''.
I've worked as a contractor, and nothing you've said is really wrong but it all goes out the window in the gaming industry, mainly because contracting is the status quo and the pool of contracters they can pool from is large enough that they can afford to underpay.
EA, ironically.
I don't see what ceo's taking paycuts has to do with my post. Japanese workers are expected to work long hours in general and many japanese workers have literally worked themselves to death. Japanese people are just very passive aggressive about everything so instead of firing you they demote you to embarassing shit jobs in the company until you quit. Do I need to bring up the shit Konami was getting away with? Because that was way worse than what even EA/Activision does.
The entire point of agile is to have less rigid structure and adapt to change that occurs during development. Precisely because you cannot know the end result and that change will happen through iteration. To focus less on long meetings and have people dedicated to constantly manage this instead in the form of a Product Owner and Scrum Master so people can focus more on the development.
The goal is to work more incrementally instead of having a blueprint you hand out to everyone, everyone goes away for several months, then you come back tryng to piece it all together and realize a bunch of problems have arrived and people would have to re-do a lot of work or just scrap months of work.
When this was something you could've catched way sooner and adapted the development.
Fucking hell, the primary thing of agile development is to NOT have a rigid structure and to remain agile.
How poorly can one person understand agile as you?
But he's right you troglodyte
The problem with unions is that they protect the worst workers. Why do you think it's always deadweight asking to unionize?
talk like this is just a race to the bottom and only benefits employers, not employees. If you willingly destroy your body and soul trying to push out a faggy AAA game for pennies then that's what expected of employees
an AAA game needs more than good graphics to be good. But without good graphics it's just not an AAA game, period. That's the way the game industry evolved, and it's unrealistic to blame the people on top for that. The general public wants good graphics. They also want good gameplay, but graphics sell games in trailers. If people were smarter about purchases and weren't impressed by stupid flashy shit, then it wouldn't work. But they are. I am an arrogant prick when it comes to diagnosing problems with the game industry, because most people don't get it and are pointing fingers in the wrong direction.
>It doesn't matter what approach you use when the person giving your studio money is saying "we need this done at X date or it's over". That's why crunch exists
Which is once again, as I said prior, the problem doesn't really lie with the devs. But with the suits and management above them that don't know wtf they're doing while also not caring about the crunch the devs would have to go through.
See my Red Faction Armageddon example at
>Lol good luck getting a bunch of pajeets to make anything that requires an original thought
Hey Sanjay, these are the designs from the creative division in Austin, can your team make these characters, creatures and levels in a week?
WOW A WHOLE WEEK YOU SIR ARE VERYGOOD SIR THANK YOU FOR NOT GIVING THE CRUNCH TIMING TO US SIR
>code monkeys think that because they modeled and rigged the character artist's design that they created the character
Wait, what the fuck am I even implying here? Code monkeys don't think.
My IQ dropped so hard by just reading OP.
>defending corporations in 2019
>This is true, but fuck man, I'll never understand why more AAA game developers notice that good graphics does not make a good game or even an successfull one. Just look at games like Crysis 2/3, Andromeda, Anthem, etc and you will notice that none of their ''graphics'' did anything to save their investments, it only made it worse.
Yea Forums constatly shits the bed over graphics, "downgrades" and shit.
Fucking hell, Yea Forums got triggered over puddles in Spider-man for PS4.
Graphics does matter to a lot of people.
Game developers are moust hardworking slaves i ever seen. Industry will replace you like broken bulp.
Solidarity, but absolute shit workers still get fired. The problem is management is constantly trying to push punishment so unions have to protect as many people as possible and create as many steps as possible. People who fuck up every step still get fired.
Bureaucracy sucks, co-ops are generally the best.
>The problem with unions is that they protect the worst workers. Why do you think it's always deadweight asking to unionize?
No system is perfect becase they involve corruptable people.
But if the alternative is insane constant crunch and shit like what happens regularly at like Bioware and shit then it is very much needed.
I guess that comes with the trade off of compromising artistic vision and the likelihood that your studio is gone once it stops being a cash cow.
Very true user.
>I inherited a 1.5MM house with 300k left on the mortage
>I was 300k in DEBT, don't you see?
>I started a plastering business and fixed up that old thing, sold it for 800k cuz of my
>"""MEDIAN IQ OF 139"""
>Used that 500k to buy a nice house and rent it out, now I'm living large.
I'm pretty sure this guy inherited some real estate worth a fuckton and thinks that because he still had to pay part of the mortgage off, he inherited a DEBT. Thats the only way it makes sense and also fits with him being a literal retard.
I agree with the principles (in most cases), I just don't agree with the execution. I disagree with constant management. I agree with hiring talented people and letting them get on with their own thing. Sometimes that does actually involve letting them go away for months (or even years) and do their own thing. I think game development needs more controlled chaos for people to actually produce good games again, but that also means you have to hire the right people.
Are you seriously implying that you think coding and scripting is a braindead and lazy mans job?
While at the same time claiming that drawing images is somehow way more demanding?
This. Imagine if they actually had to real physical work all day, they'd probably collapse and die. Pathetic fucking weaklings.
Not him, but co-ops are only good for small companies with a common goal and skill set. Once you need to expand or need a division of labor it absolutely cannot stack up to hierarchical organizations. Co-ops are probably really good for indie companies though, I'm aware of Dead Cells which was made by a co-op.
>inherited debt
LMAO
JUST LMAO
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!
>If people were smarter about purchases and weren't impressed by stupid flashy shit, then it wouldn't work. But they are. I am an arrogant prick when it comes to diagnosing problems with the game industry, because most people don't get it and are pointing fingers in the wrong direction.
Can't really blame the consumer though, as is the nature with game development, most developers probably have nothing to show unless they create a ''vertical slice'' of their intended design goals and show that off. So the only thing that your avarage consumer has to go after when looking for a new game to play is overly flashy trailers and graphics.
That could be somewhat alleviated though if publishers showed off their games close to release instead of while it is still in it's conceptual/alpha stages, but of course the publishers would still rather show of ''flashy'' stuff since it is easier to trick idiots with.
>I agree with hiring talented people and letting them get on with their own thing. Sometimes that does actually involve letting them go away for months (or even years) and do their own thing
This is the worst kind of management in existance and in almost every instance where a development has blown itself up this was always one of the primary culprits.
Management isn't about telling people precisely what to do every step of the way. It's to manage and support the production so everyone is on the same page and that other people's work doesn't suffer.
If you let people go off on their own and then you realize that all of the pieces everyone made doesn't fit because you didn't actually manage the proejct. What do you do then? Throw up your arms and pretend that it was unavoidable or blame the initial plan?
This kind of approach is precisely why games like Uncharted 3 turned into a mess, because that's Amy Hennig's way of directing and she learned that it just doesn't work.
Terrible terrible ways of working. You also make it clear you're close-minded.
You should open up a book and work on your reading comprehension. I strongly feel it will help you sound like less of an idiot in future conversations, instead of using words you don't understand like entitlement and abject retarded talking points like "nobody owes you anything" and trying to pass them off as "statements of fact"
Unless you live in North Korea, Iran or some similar shit hole you can't inherit significant net debt, because even if you chose to do this your grandfather's estate would simply be dissolved before it passed onto you. You're larping, plain and simple.
>139 IQ, doesn't know this
>Can't really blame the consumer though
Yes you can. Consumers love flashy graphics. For most people that's all they need to convince them to buy a game.
>Obviously there's something about the videogame industry that lends itself to this shit.
yeah, video games are cool so some people think they should enslave themselves to be allowed to work on them, which means companies can abuse them
>I now own a property that makes me money by simply existing.
If you never sacrifice your well being to achieve success, then you'll never get anywhere in life :)
He obviously has an 139 IQ from an online test. You know those tests where you could blindly select answers and still get above 110? Some of them got wiser and will actually dock you down if you answer too fast.
I think that is mostly shitposting though user. Not only that, but the people that are ''actually'' getting angry are probably angry because they feel that they have been lied too. Not because the graphics are bad.
Did you not read the post I responded to that said you couldn't outsource coding jobs to pajeets because they're not creative? Do you not get the joke I am making where even if they're not creative you can just have someone else do the thinking and have them do the actual work?
>y-you open the dictionary
>y-you don't understand the word not me!
Highly entertaining, but have you looked up the difference between wanting something, and feeling entitled to it yet?
I've humoured you enough but you need to google the term before you keep using it in conversation, you're making a fool of yourself.
>I'll never understand why more AAA game developers notice that good graphics does not make a good game or even an successfull one
Good graphics is basically a prerequisite in the AAA industry with few exceptions. For every Crysis 2/3, Andromeda, Anthem, there are successful games like Witcher 3, Uncharted, The Division, all of which were sold on graphics (even if they were later downgraded). Good graphics might not make a good game but they sure as fuck make it easier to market. There's a reason why EA bought DICE and started making FIFA and Madden using the Frostbite engine despite being hilariously mismatched for sports games.
>''What? The game fucking sucks? GIVE MORE MONEY TO OUR PR/HR/AD AGENCY!''
Again, it's all about marketing. It's much easier to market your game based on fancy graphics and hype than it is to make a high quality game.
based retard
>people are moving jobs overseas
>we'll keep all the people overseas out of our the country!
Based brainlet
>pajeets aren't creative
I disagree
youtube.com
>Yes you can. Consumers love flashy graphics. For most people that's all they need to convince them to buy a game.
Yeah, it's easy to blame someone when they made a mistake thanks to not having all of the information. I'm not saying that these people don't exist, what I am saying is that most of them (outside of the actual kids and dudebro fifa/madden crowd) actually know how to spot a bad game if they get the chance. The thing is, they don't get that chance, so all they have to go on is past experience with the company and the flashy trailers.
Some of us have even managed to learn how to filter out the ''flash'' and see the game for what it actually is in non-CGI trailers. Careful user, we are evolving!
>If you let people go off on their own and then you realize that all of the pieces everyone made doesn't fit because you didn't actually manage the proejct.
You're confusing "less management" with "no management"
GOOD teams synergize naturally. You manage them but you don't micromanage them. Sure if your team doesn't synergize then you have to micromanage and schedule them into doing the right thing, but that's not a situation you want to be in. Don't give me shit about being close-minded, good teams are how you make good games, I don't care about making shit games and I don't care about overly controlling methods to get unmotivated people to work together. I've been through it and it sucks from workers perspective and it sucks from the managers perspective.
I simply told you to open a book, but a dictionary might be a good place for you to start considering your utter lack of reading comprehension.
You've already made a complete fool out of yourself by invoking this asinine concept of wrongful "entitlement", and your pedantic attempt at arguing semantics and meek stuttering greentext strawmen aren't doing you any favors. It would be entertaining if it wasn't so sad.
If they would focus on making good games instead of realtime calculated movies, this shit wouldnt be the case. These fucks are responsible for the incredibly industry bloat and i will laugh my ass of when they bit the dust first.
Think about it, remove the "movie elements" from any ND game and what's left is a game that you'd need 6 month to develop max.
you guys have no clue how bad the average indian dude is at programming. all they know how to do is google and copy paste half-broken solutions by other indians while making them worse
based retard
What actually causes crunch? Aren't these games in development for years, what happens in between those years that causes the last stretch of development to be 80+ hour weeks?
deadlines
Yes, this is all obvious. But good graphics is expensive to make, which is why MTX got intoduced into full priced games, too keep up profit margins. Which is why I pointed it out in the first place. Not only that but it would be easier, faster and cheaper for a AAA publisher to make 10 ''Undertale'' than to make 1 ''CoD'' with the resources that they have. They would probably still see a lot of success aswell, the main difference is that they wouldn't make as much money as fast as they are currently doing which is why we are stuck with all of this trend chasing, graphical fanaticism and all of these micotransactions.
It will all just come back too bite them in the ass in the end. Atleast if lootboxes ever gets banned/regulated.
project management
Why do people hate management so much? I've never had any negative experiences with management.
Wouldn't movie games be easier to make then traditional AAA games? It's not like you have to bugtest or balance cutscenes or extremely scripted sequences and making the game more like a movie would give it a more clearcut structure and goal to work toward.
management is an easy scapegoat
it's very american to blame The Man
Deadlines that are known in advanced years ahead?
So this is just scope changing so much that after so much time the publisher is kicking down the door and you're scrambling to put anything out there just to keep your jobs?
>Deadlines that are known in advanced years ahead?
It's like you're implying it's easy to plan out a video game years in ahead
It's very american to suck The Man's dick
and pretend never abuse their power despite having leverage over the people under them
>work hard
Crunch is not "working hard".
Crunch is jews making additional free shekels by forcing goyims into working conditions which are restricted by the law.
Get the fuck out jew.
Yes, it is easier to make, which is why they are doing it. It's also easier to sell a game on graphics than gameplay because it is easier to show off and lie about in trailers.
You haven't worked many jobs then.
Americans hate all authority and think that anyone in a position of power is automatically evil and incompetent and they could do a better job themselves
If you plan a 5year project on a 4year deadline knowing ahead won't do shit.
The thing is nobody wants to pay them more than necessary. So they rather squeeze them with overtime than fund longer development cycles.
Gotta love these Bollywood action scenes. The heroes are always 40k space marine tier. Too bad the movies all suck ass
You have years to do it, you likely have management and other staff with experience and several titles on their resumes. Crunch just sounds like the consequences of a lot of nothing happening until your financiers are telling you they're cutting the cord
And the result will be like Doom 2016 vs Doom Eternal, which was so obviously outsourced to some chink studio which has done nothing but f2p mobile garbage, that it hurts to look at it. Good luck selling that garbage afterwards.
Americans love all authority and think that anyone in a position of power is automatically good and competent and they got the job because they're good at it
Okay user
You have two years exactly to make a great game
now go do it
keep in mind exactly two years from now I will be cutting you off no matter what you're doing
good luck
That's because they're situated in a civilized country with proper work laws. I don't know NZ's law but if it's anything close to European laws, there is a limit how much work you can do. Also to work overtime you're gonna have compensate a lot of money.
Notice that all these crunch hour news are always about American game companies.
This post was made by someone who clearly isn't American.
some are good, some are awful, but that is true for developers as well.
Point is since they are higher up in the food chain they are more likely to cause a huge mess when they make bad decisions and it is the developers that have to clean up after them by crunching.
Ok, I made my game in 1.5 years, where's my fucking bonus
Whoops, meant for
>proper work laws
lol, you think it matters?
You either do the overtime or you get fired
sure go complain to the authorties, you'll still lose your job and your coworkers won't like you anymore
I lived in NZ and i've done crunch time
This post was made by someone who clearly isn't American.
Whoops, meant for
Is everybody just trolling or do you seriously think workers shouldn't unionize? Then you better be a millionaire posting on Yea Forums to pass the time while you extract the proletariat's surplus.
>OH MY GOD I HAVE TO """"WORK"""" OVERTIME SITTING ON MY ASS IN AN AIRCONDITIONED OFFICE THIS WILL NOT STAND GAME JOURNOS HELP US POOR DEVS RISE UP
well that's great and all but this doesn't look anywhere near as good as the game OTHER studio made in 2 years where they crunched their employees and pushed them to the limit
Whoops, meant for
Its not much really, my work shift as a factory worker is 15h/d 7/7 so its like 105h a week
Damn, but it sold 25 million copies. Well time to cut my losses and make my own studio
>arguing semantics
>because you conflated wanting something with entitlement and this is still forming the basis of your argument
It's simply not possible to continue this discussion until you look that word up. Since it's clearly too much of an ego hit for you to do so, this conversation is pointless.
Most of the time, a job gets ruined thanks to a lack of resources or time. It's actually so god damned common that people have started blaming ''managment'' even when they had fuck all to do with anything going wrong. Because most of the time, the lack of resources/time is thanks to whover ordered that job to be done was completely ignorant about how it should/could be done.
All in all, shit goes wrong because of poor communication between departments and a lack of experience. So most of the time everyone played a party in making that ''blame'' pie.
>arguing semantics
>because you invoked wrongful entitlement and this is still forming the basis of your argument
It's simply not possible to continue this discussion until you learn how to read. Since it's clearly too much of an ego hit for you to do so, this conversation is pointless.
There will always be rich, but every so often they get too carried away and a bunch get their heads removed then we go back to an uneasy peace. Might be another one coming.
gamers rise up
if we kill all the game devs then nobody can make shitty games anymore
it will be a paradise
Watch AngryJoe's video on "Anthem exposed" for a real eye opener as to how retarded management in the games industry is.
No the devs are blameless. The dude who owns the company that owns the dev is the evil one.
>look mom I copied his post again, look how smart I sound now
Brilliant.
AAA games being bugged has nothing to do with QA, they have a Jira filled with hundred if not thousands of bugs. They just choose the not fix them because retards keep buying the games anyway
yeah if you had millions you'd do things differently
you'd be the good guy
just like every poor person said before they killed the corrupt elite and became the new corrupt elite
Sure, but if I'm working outside the hours that we agreed upon then I expect extra pay.
>look mom I called him entitled again, look how smart I sound now
Brilliant.
>games being bugged has nothing to do with the department in charge of finding bugs
ok
>The problem with unions is that they protect the worst workers
this isn't often different in non-unionized jobs but the difference here is that unionization is more likely to encourage good work ethic due to increased wages, benefits, retirement, etc.
You can get some of the worst but the union can assure that you keep some of the best
Where does this anti-union sentiment even stem from, it's unlikely some of you are multi-millionaires so what is it?
I would. Only sociopaths get that high up the corporate ladder. Which is the problem really.
the only thing required for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing
so you aren't really a person of strong moral fibre anyway
I doubt you'd be any different
>this hurt over a word he quite literally did not understand
MTX got introduced into full priced games because MTX themselves have insane profit margins. Even if you halved every AAA game's graphics budget it wouldn't change anything about their MTX because they want to maximize profits not just maintain them.
To make 10 "Undertale" they would need 10 "Toby Fox" along with the precise conditions that allowed Undertale to become so successful and known about to begin with. For every Undertale and Stardew there are thousands of indies that drown because simply making a novel fun game isn't good enough to compete in the market.
I love Neptune!
I'm suggesting we behead sociopaths. Doesn't get much gooder than that.
The strongest unions in the US are public sector unions which are garbage. Teachers unions protect horrendous teachers and stick it to the taxpayer instead of the capitalist employer, and police unions protect shitty cops that kill unarmed people. I'm fine with private sector unions if they don't lobby.
That makes you a sociopath yourself
>you just don't understand it MAN!
No, retard. The moment you tried to evoke "entitlement" in the discussion is the moment you lost the argument. No amount of pathetic attempts to save face and pissing over the definition of words will change that fact.
It's almost like they work harder than you do.
At least traditional slave your life away at work & have no family life jobs used to pay really well.
They need to DISCUSS THIS!
Not at all. I'm suggesting it for the good of society as a short term solution. Then we can learn to treat them or isolate them.
No they just have no morals.
>argument about entitlement in the workplace
>can't evoke entitlement though
Bizarre.
Honestly those guys need an ass kicking. Keep that shit in the third world where it belongs.
game dev programmers earn like 50-60k in AAA and they do 70 hours of work a week since they're always under crunch. that means they're getting paid like 15 bucks an hour, which is about what some dude stacking crates at amazon makes
>>argument about entitlement in the workplace
Wrong again retard. Thanks for proving my point you're an illiterate.
Killing all sociopaths probably means killing a good 20% of the population
Socialism doesn't work.
>I'm doing it for the greater good
Yeah you sound mentally stable. I'll take the suits over you, at least they're productive in their insanity.
The craziest part is that the amazon employee works an hourly rate and gets time and a half for overtime
>Managers dindu nuffin
>CEOs work harder for their money
>underlings are just overly entitled
Never change neo Yea Forums
/thread
The world owes you nothing.
>be grateful just to work
Fucking awful mindset. I'd rather NEET it up than work somewhere that doesn't deserve my talent.
I think you might actually be retarded, user.
gee you should really tell the entire history labour rights that user I don't think that ever occurred to them
Wait, are you trying to say Doom Eternal looks worse than 2016? You’re literally the only person I’ve seen with this terrible opinion
You literally do not have the right to work under another man.
game dev programmers earn about as much as a normal programmer and are only under crunch some of the time, not most of the time
Working pretty well for northern Europe.
>I deserve to be CEO
A sacrifice I'm willing to make. More like 10% though.
I am. I'm a visionary though.
t. edgy teenager living with parents
You literally do not have the right to anything. Not even to life itself.
Except when it does.
>work, crunch, overtime
>end up with 4 hour long shitty movies that can be consumed right on youtube
holy SHIT imagine working for AAA cuck centers
Given the topic of the thread can you explain how this isn't about entitlement in the workplace, assuming you've googled the word "entitlement" and are now sufficiently familiar with it to make sense.
>You deserve to starve
at rockstar, crunch begins around 6 months before a release. they're also working on saturdays. i mean yeah you're not wrong but lol
You're actually a massive faggot and the only vision you have is the futanari porn on your second monitor.
You are correct.
If they don't like the working conditions they can quit. They are really expendable and if they were actually skilled they could go indie and make millions on their own. Movies have conditions like this as well but everyone seems to know what they are getting into there. Just quit or join some soulless mobile dev team if you want normal hours.
something something black people welfare something muslims will take over something ronald reagen
What's the alternative?
I'm neither starving, nor complaining. You're the disgruntled one here.
>Do you think a school teacher should earn as much as I do?
For dealing with Australian children? Yes.
I don't have a second monitor joker.
Employers do, though. There will be no peace for them. They must fear for their lives, every day paranoid of losing what they know is an unearned privilege, their vast fortune unable to protect them against the ghost of a thousand million workers that can at any point get fed up and eat them alive.
Scares me to think that people actually feel this way.
It's not a particularly profound article, there are certainly way worse jobs out there then making video games, but clocking over 60 hours in a week in any job, even if it's making video games, is a rough time. Try it sometime, Yea Forums, before pointing and laughing.
>I'm content so anyone else who isn't deserves to suffer
Looks like you're the blissful idiot here.
>MTX got introduced into full priced games because MTX themselves have insane profit margins. Even if you halved every AAA game's graphics budget it wouldn't change anything about their MTX because they want to maximize profits not just maintain them.
Agreed, but they would undoubtely stop if they somehow couldn't do MTX anymore, although these incresses in margin has also made them able to piss away way more money.
>To make 10 "Undertale" they would need 10 "Toby Fox" along with the precise conditions that allowed Undertale to become so successful and known about to begin with. For every Undertale and Stardew there are thousands of indies that drown because simply making a novel fun game isn't good enough to compete in the market.
That is true for every game though, the main difference is that they have franchises and their company name to make them stand out from the horde. If they made 10 ''undertale'' they would have 10 chances to strike gold instead of just one big chance that might blow up even harder in their face than the 10 chances.
The reason as to why they don't do this is because you were right in your first statement, they already have an insane profit margin so why even bother changing it as long as it works? Even if they are undoubtedly making the industry worse for anyone else in it including their consumers. That and it will probably bite them in the ass if they don't find some backup to these profit margins since the moment they even start to falter most investors will bail and leave them with no money at all.
you should read the interview about starbreeze how the managers and the CEO destroyed the company.
When the managers are incompetent you have major problems but when the CEO is incompetent you are fucked
I think teachers should earn a lot. They're an investment into the next generation. Shit education shit country.
>people work jobs in a system that is set up in a way that they cannot eat unless they work a job
I don't understand the point you're making
Probably because you're too busy sucking the dick of middle managers and CEOs. Pretty hard to starve when you're drinking an endless amount cum.
You’re like one of those types of people who can’t stop talking at a party, but doesn’t realize that all the attention people are giving him are their observation-based judgements about how stupid the shit he’s saying is
They decided to work at Rockstar. What did they expect?
>these people who are making a career are overcoming the.. ehh.. uhh *video ends*
kek
i never understood why it's considered bad to talk about bad working conditions in AAA, and why you shouldn't inform others of them
isn't it common sense to raise awareness of awful workplaces so people know to avoid them? i mean it's like you went into mcdonalds and they were cooking burgers with cockroaches in them, and you went to write about Yea Forums on it and some mcdonalds enthusiast informs you that you should just not eat there if you don't like cockroach burgers, and that your complaint is unwarranted
I don't personally care if you suffer, die or win the lottery but for what it's worth I live in a country where you can flip burgers or mop floors and live comfortably because we have a set minimum wage; if for some reason you're not able to do this then yes, you should suffer because you're lazy or useless, nobody else should be obligated to look after you.
>Get to code from home, like most of my coworkers
>Only have to come in during important meetings or at the end of a project
>Job is easy mode, so I usually finish a day's work in 2 hours
>Spend the rest of it playing vidya, working out and seeing my gf when she's not working
>No need for a union because my boss is easy going, as long as we do our job
Given the topic of the thread I'd ask you to explain how being properly paid for your work equates to entitlement in the workplace, but that would be assuming you've even read a single book and are sufficiently capable of reading my post and responding to it without shitting yourself. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.
I did 48 hours a week at a shitty burgerflipping job and would've done 72 a week if I was legally allowed. If I had the pay and non physical job of just sitting at a desk all day it would be cake. On top of that you are making a AAA game that you directly chose to do. This is baby hours and they pursued it themselves.
I doubt you think at all.
The vitriol you have for people in employment is quite telling. In all likelihood you are simply not a productive human being.
>i-it's unfair that they make so much money
Life is unfair, my condolences on being born a retard.
>I personally don't care
>you should suffer because you're lazy or useless, nobody else should be obligated to look after you.
Yeah we know edgelord,
>We have a set minimum wage
Who do you think lobbied for that minimum, you colossal retard.
It's not bad working conditions it's just how top of the industry entertainment is made. It's like this for every other art form and is expected if you are pursuing it. I bet when they signed up for the job it stated this was expected of them. There are people on set working 16+ hours a day and there it's considered passion and praise. It's not like these people are tricked into doing this, they are being brats.
>The vitriol you have for people in employment is quite telling. In all likelihood you are simply not a productive human being.
The irony here is incredible. It's like you don't have a shred of self awareness
>Life is unfair
>defends disproportion anyway because hurr durr ur born retarded
My condolences to your parents. I can't imagine having to raise someone as insufferable as you.
>this thread
>this Yea Forumsermin corporate dicksucking
This is why we can't have nice things
I found web dev really fucking obnoxious because there are a million frameworks that get updated every day, and shit blowing up server side are really fucking vague and hard to track down sometimes.
Machine learning has more math but it's infinitely less annoying
>properly paid
If you're complaining about wages/working conditions, by all means take it up with your employers. If they tell you to fuck off because the reality is 10,000 other people can do your job and more than half of them will do it for less, that's life. Start your own company if it's that much of an issue, you can pay code monkeys doing a job Pajeet would do for pennies whatever salary you like, you cannot however expect everyone else to do this, the market is simply too saturated.
It's a bitter pill to swallow but they don't owe you a job or a set salary beyond the minimum wage or whatever your current contract stipulates. If you're skilled enough to negotiate more, bravo; if not then suck it up or leave.
you don't know anything, so stop talking please
>I bet when they signed up for the job it stated this was expected of them
they actually lie about the hours in most of these places
>It's not like these people are tricked into doing this, they are being brats.
how would they know, if they aren't being informed about these working conditions?
what you're saying is completely nonsensical. if we don't actively talk about the bad working conditions, how could your argument of "oh it's obvious that these working conditions are bad" ever prevail? in order for people to know to avoid these workplaces, there must obviously be an on-going discussion of them. you're suggesting that people should just stay quiet about awful places to work, but also that everyone should know that these places are awful places to work so they can avoid them. which one is it?
i also don't understand the argument you're making about "it's how top of the industry entertainment is made". you're essentially saying that triple AAA game studios have bad working conditions because they're triple AAA game studios, and that's why it's okay. how completely banal and nonsensical to bring up
Not a single counterpoint to explain why anyone should pay one person the same as another when one person is simply more productive than the other.
Can you come up with one (1) single compelling reason to do this? You believe in it, it shouldn't be so difficult.
What a wonderful argument.
You are clearly an idiot who is incapable of justifying their opinion or defending their point of view.
>he thinks compensation is determined by productivity
Please keep making an ass out of yourself.
>the breach their contracts
If only there were some form of legal action we could take about that.
thanks reagen
He wasn't responding to an argument. Just an idiot who makes mental abortive posts and tries to pass them off as points and opinions.
That's a separate argument you're bringing up because you can't defend your original point. By all means we can discuss that instead, if you'd prefer.
Your problem is you keep stating they are bad working conditions as if this is a fact. It's not telling them to stay quiet because they are being lied to but they are falsely crying about something they signed up for themselves. If those places lied in their contract they could sue them instead of complaining about it but they aren't because they literally signed up for this.
If someone applies to a job that says they are competitive leading creators and will require working overtime in the contract that fault lies with the person applying. The companies are not to blame here it's the shitty people applying and then complaining about the same exact thing they signed up for.
>trying to compare a CEO/CFO/Exec project managers "productivity" directly to a code monkey
Really?
>Explain why someone who's less productive than someone else be paid the same!
>point out it doesn't even scale with productivity in the first place
>THATS A SEPARATE ARGUMENT
You can't even defend your initial "point" because you never had one to begin with. You're just deflecting and flailing around like a mongoloid.
>you're not allowed to complain about things you signed up for
Says who? If that's the only thing being offered then you're still inclined to take it since it still beats nothing.
I'm not the one who argued CEOs get paid more because they work harder.
>It's not telling them to stay quiet
Yes it is.
Your problem is you keep stating they are falsely crying and signed up for bad working conditions as if this is a fact.
>It's not telling them to stay quiet because they are being lied to but they are falsely crying about something they signed up for themselves
so it's okay to exploit and scam people as long as you don't get caught?
i mean, i literally just told you 2 minutes ago, they lie about their hours. they say "oh you're working 40 hours a week" and then crunch comes along and you're now working 70 hours a week for 6 months. they don't "have" to work 70 hours, you can also get fired for "unrelated reasons" and they'll scrub your name from the credits.
and again, since you YOURSELF don't even know how these workplaces function, why are you trying to suppress this information? what do you get out of it? i really don't understand. are you trying to protect some sort of investment?
>they could sue them instead of complaining about it
That's not allowed under their contract
>if companies fuck you over, that's life
>just start your own company
>they don't owe you payment for labor provided
Then you wonder why nobody takes you apologist dicksuckers seriously. Go pound dirt.
Correct, and your chart does nothing to address that argument. You are attempting to compare the productivity of people in two different lines of work. Are you going to compare nurses and neurosurgeons next?
How do you not know this, by the way? I'm not expecting a productive conversation here, but this is fucking obvious.
>The companies are not to blame here it's the shitty people applying
The companies aren't responsible for the people they hire? Are they literally culpable for anything? Other than to their shareholders I mean.
You're trying to compare the productivity of a codemonkey who handles a portion of a video game easily outsourced worth maybe 50k to a person who handles the structure, investments and business model of a company worth hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars.
It's ridiculous. Do you not understand that?
>legally mandate large, publicly traded companies must publish salary breakdowns and positions filled by gender
>shareholders say "the public wants you to hire more women, you're going to hire more women or we'll fire you and hire someone else (probably a woman) to do this"
>hire a bunch of women who can't handle their pressure of working under a deadline and lack industry experience
>"it's the companies, they did this!"
There's no way to win really.
>Companies aren't responsible for who they hire or really anything because they were forced to hire women
Blaming an entire gender is one hell of a take here.
Why do you feel they're obligated to look after you? They're your employers, not your parents.
>they don't owe you payment for labor provided
They owe you whats in your contract. What are you not understanding about this dynamic?
I absolutely do not blame women. I would do the same shit in their position.