What killed MMOs?

Greed.
Pay for the game, pay for cosmetics, pay for sub, pay for expansions.
Don't give a fuck about fun, priority #1 - player engagement. Make the fuckers spend as much time as possible, so we can report as high number of MAUs as possible to our investors.

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This.
Blizzard somehow still has enough momentum that they're influencing the industry today despite being absolutely devoid of quality

The core demographic of players age out of the ability to play the game regularly due to employment and keep up with the jones-es unless they turn into poor NEETs

this creates a problem because people don't necessarily want to hang out with NEETs in a social game, esp when those NEETs have as their only redeeming life's value their in-game achievements

New players are inevitably behind in any MMO because they have no way to actually 'catch up' to the old school players in some way, typically achievements or some sort of time-gated reward that rewards being 'old school'

the irony being that newer MMOs were designed to attract casuals. unfortunately casuals don't want to invest heavy hours into dungeons and dragons lite.
this guy gets it. a big part of what made vanilla fun was the social aspect, which just happened to have a game built around it.

last time I played wow, everyone was talking on discord while waiting for dungeon/raid pops.

>metacritic
kek
but to answer your question, it didn't
ffxiv is quite simply a wow clone, and when blizzard released BFA wow became awful, so people switched to the clone that had become more palatable, it's quite simple really, blizzard shot themselves in the foot

okay, so why is the wow clone better than the real deal then? i see more people on ffxiv's servers than on wow's servers now.

Leveling, it's an archaic and shitty design
people do not WANT to have to grind 500 hours just to play with their friends, they want to play with their friends immediately.
There is no barrier to playing with your buddies in dota, legalegends, fortnite, overwatch and apex
you can just do it and then you can hop off when you need to do things irl
mmos by design require you to waste swathes of your personal time in order to actually accomplish something, it's absurd

read the last sentence again

The success of that game's shithouse design.

I’m leveling with my friends right now in ffxiv. Just going slow and doing all the side quests and main quests, making jokes and pseudo role playing in discord

Most fun I’ve had in years

You are the reason gear treadmills exist. Thanks m8. So much more fun than levelling. That was sarcasm, you're a git.

A rather hilarious case of follow the leader. And the leader is rather mediocre and only the leader because they got there first.

This. game is totally shallow, and really just boring as fuck. Somebody here put it best when they said old wow was like a co op game and modern wow is like singleplayer

nu-fun

Same lol

>who didn't want to pay money
They did, WoW was such a huge success because nerds started it. Without those diehard faggots the game would've been forgotten quite quick.

you're an idiot, getting gear is far more interesting than leveling up, besides, games should do like what fortnite and mobas do where the "end game" is just cosmetics.
In reality, it doesn't matter what you're doing as long as its fun and not being able to play with your friends because of jobless NEETs like you needing a time sink isn't fun
kill yourself

why do people shill this game here?

XIV has level scaling so you can play with your friends if they're lower level than you. Doesn't work the other way around, unfortunately.

SE is literally japanese EA, they pay people

Time

The raiders. Not even joking. Their demands made MMO's a bloated mess of a game with no new content for none raiders.

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b-but pets and m-mounts user!

XIV was one of the most boring wow clones I've ever played, maybe rift was worse. I just wish someone would make wow great again, because the game became shit since wod came out.

>you have to play in a perpetual state where you only have a quarter of your actual kit so you're just stuck spamming the same spell like a retard
ffxiv early game is dogshit and continues to prove my point, levels are a mistake and mmos who continue to work on a level based system are retarded
quite frankly, if destiny 2 had actual fun raids and more interesting guns to grind for it would be the best mmo on the market, because it has a great concept
sadly bungie are retards

Accessibility. The more MMOs like WoW wanted "wider audiences" the worse the games became. It wasn't about streamlining the content and ensuring the content stays fresh, exciting, and functional throughout the game, but to streamline how easy it is for someone to jump in and experience the same content as someone who would otherwise spend hours attempting to satisfy the completion of something difficult, or tedious. Rather than it being about how amazing your game plays and feels, it's always going to be about how many people are playing, because that translates to sales and numbers.

>there were people that defended rift
>there are currently people that defend xiv
it's so awkward to watch

They just made the game too easy all the zones at the beginning redundant. Which is really sad. WoW was great because of its open world quests. They were difficult and forced the player to get to know other players. If you were a massive, little bitch that just wanted everything handed to you on a silverplate like WoW currently does you would ragequit after hitting level 10 or even before that.
You had to talk to other players and you had to work together, also you had to be nice. Today you whisper to somebody you need help with a quest and they feel harassed. Or straight out put you on the ignore list.

this is the opposite of reality

There’s nothing to shill about it.

It’s a thread about MMORPGs, and to coincide with the topic I brought up a scenario about a current mmo as a counterpoint to the quoted post.

Not everything is a shill/troll/numale/politically driven post. For fucks sake I just want to talk about video games on a video game board

Casual raiders you mean. High End raiders were what made MMOs great.

this is such a stupid perspective, you only feel that way because of nostalgia but if the game was like that then 6 months down the line people wouldn't have that as new players
because those zones would be dead due to everyone finishing them

It didn't directly kill MMOs but discord sure as hell helped.

You can now play an mmo and you don't even need to touch in game chat if you use discord.

The main idea of MMOs and rpgs was watching your character grow, not just put different makeup on. Also
>jobless neet
I remember I sometimes played with people who were over 30 with job and everything. They just didn't log on as often but that's it. They still attended raids, participated in dungeons and so on.

Oh, so you just have bad taste due to sunk cost fallacy.
Gotcha, typical blizzdrone, or whatever the fuck you were playing

I don't think leveling itself is the issue, but the lack of obtaining skills, spells, and abilities as you level. In DnD, your feats, abilities, and spells are tied to level, but that doesn't stop you from improvising in a fight to win rather than the same cookie-cutter attack.

Except that's wrong. WoW was popular largely because you could solo your way to the level cap.

you can grow by getting stronger gear, warframe is 100% cosmetics and that game works just fine
>b-but the guns have levels!
changes nothing because you one shot everything anyway

How come it worked out so well in the past? You always had players playing the game. No zone was dead and even if you were on a low population server you had multiple zones to choose from.

wow when it first came out was laughed at for being everquest but easy
it was popular because you could also play it while having a life and raids were spectacles with lots of people

Activision and their desire for easy to use matchmaking around 2009. so ya they been 100% dead for a decade.

used to have a literal hardcore wow raider gamer house my mate had people across asia come and live with him and raid/gear hardcore. he was in top OCE guild etc. around the time wrath made it easier to find groups they stopped playing together even thou living in same house and just played the numbers of joining lots of groups rather than having good players they trust. that's what killed it imo

in the bliz coffee table book they strait up admit that series of feature creep to do with grouping up was pushed by Activision to make the game similar to Call of duty easy to use fast matchmaking.

>fallacy
Dang you gottim there, bud!

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It didn't, as soon as TBC came out people stopped questing and started leveling through dungeons, this got even more prevalent in wotlk
don't lie, questing was a total fucking meme and only was a thing for the first year or so of vanilla

lol no.
raids and instancing killed mmos forever.

t. faggot who sucked at raiding
molten core alone kept the game alive for the longest time

Like RTS, it got killed off by the casual market

Hah! That was the reason WoW died! Because total dipshits begged blizzard to add more solo content. I remember everybody making fun of these people, they were literally seen as retarded.
Why the hell would somebody play a Massive Multiplayer Online Game all alone?
Warframe is a very niche game, with a small fandom. Also you got other things in Warframe to achieve. Only after you cleared the game you have to farm and many players new to the game are even warned by veterans. That this game is all about farming. If you're not into farming weeks upon weeks don't play the game.
That and Warframe doesn't really have open world where you randomly meet players where you can interact. Most of the time you spend on the ship and beam wherever the mission needs you to beam to.

Idiots who want games to be 'hardcore' killed mmos
>retards in wow whine about flying and that raiding should be everything
>flying gets basically removed and everything is raids on top of raids
>fucking dies

>ffxiv has things you can do besides raids
>you can fly whenever the fuck you want just by walking around the map collecting things
>is now more popular than wow
''''''''hardcore gamers''''''''''''''' were a mistake, inceldome killed mmos

Microtransactions including cosmetics in non-f2p titles, sharding

No they didn't. You had those huge guilds that competed against each other but the average player didn't give a fuck about those dungeons, not to mention that they already dumbed down the game around burning crusade.
A huge mistake was also the dungeonfinder.

Social media and easy access to smart phone .

Yeah early game XIV is definitely ass

Yea but FFXIV barely matches up against vanilla and is literally a shitshow compared to WoWs peak.
Generally speaking MMOs are largely failing hard right now.

>ffxiv literally has a singleplayer story
>is more popular than wow
cope, faggot it's idiots who want everything to be fucking impossible and time consuming that killed mmos
people have jobs

You see if they would actually make regular questing just more difficult so that you are forced to communicate with other players or leave the game regular questing would make much more fun suddenly.

delusional, when classic releases and you idiots can all see it was nothing but nostalgia I'm sure you'll come to your senses
wow always sucked

No innovation, programming diminishing returns. It will take decades for a next generation MMO to happen.

World of Warcraft was always intended to be a casualized version of Everquest. What was ever hardcore about it?
>no experience lost on death
>no corpse runs
>radar indicators
>big yellow question marks
>quest logs and tracking
>boiled down races, classes, and abilities

not everyone is always available to do things
here's how you make an mmo
>half of it is singleplayer for when your friends aren't on
>the other half is exclusive group content with no barriers to playing with your friends
wham, friends are on? You do stuff with them
friends aren't on? well you can still play solo at least.
Don't have friends? you can pug and also do some solo stuff
there, I fixed the whole fucking genre

Yeah, it wasn't the exercise in tedium to get to that point, or even PvP.

>is more popular than wow
Yea now, now that its a stinking half rotten corpse FFXIV is truely better than that. What an achievement!
>singleplayer story
That is exactly what killed MMOs, now of course depending how exactly they made that "singleplayer story." If its like GW2 then I could still say "okay" you learn a bit about the world you live in. But if its beyond that its also retarded.

Exactly and it was popular because actual humans could play it and then retards decided "we wanna be hardcore, make everything fucking awful so I can show my skillz!"
and then whoops, your game died

Social media

>Developers thought it made sense to take away social aspects of the game.
Well it did, from a money standpoint. WoW absolutely killed MMOs, but it wasn’t on purpose. Not really anyway. Here’s my understanding:
>multiplayer games are very niche, rpgs are kind of hard to get into
>enter wow
>based on a successful franchise
>takes the EQ formula and makes it user friendly
>suddenly everyone realizes how cool this multiplayer RPG thing can be, now that a_decaying_skeleton won’t gank them for leaving town without a party
>WoW hits a mark of 10x the people it thought it would
>suddenly MMOs are huge business
>flood of derivatives hit the market, both to capitalize on wow’s success and because wow showed how cool it could be to play around in an established setting
>this flood of people obviously never really played the older shit and don’t get why so much revolves around others (used to singleplayer games, older and less time, etc)
>wow and other games cater to them a bit
>then a bit more
>little bit more
>let’s just add matchmaking and shit
>random people can’t handle random groups so let’s nerf the content
>we have so much shit now and everyone has played it already, plus we built the idea of completely vertical progression so old zones are dead
>let’s just make early game easy and soloable too
>even more casualfags get in on it
>expectations for the whole game to be that relenting are given in to
>muh multiple difficulties
>fast forward to today
>MMOs are single player shared worlds
>one of the most popular MMOs of the moment is a WoW clone with a singleplayer chosen one storyline

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high end raids are a fucking joke. In fact even calling them high end at all inquiries its prestige. This alone causes player made elitism and an ubermensch player base that decides what is and isn't allowed in them. Devs absolutely do nothing to stop this deviant and destructive behavior that averts many players from even touching raids. Fuck players meta and fuck the idiots who enforce it. More people would raid if they could just create ragtag groups to show and tell themselves. Its okay to fail. Imagine getting fucking mad at video games because someone jukes.

its a dying genre. too outdated in the current market

What shocks me about people praising xiv is that it still has less subs than wow and people somehow think xiv is an mmo to aspire to or that it's somehow good
when in reality it is a culmination of all the problems that caused the downfall of the genre

What is your favorite raid from a vidya?
If the answer isn't Karazhan, you're wrong

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What's it like to have social anxiety so crippling you can't even interact with other people that are wasting their lives on the exact same vice?

Classic has way too much blizzard bullshit to be entertaining.
That is fucking retarded. Legitimately, what a stupid thing to say.
>half of it is singleplayer for when your friends aren't on
Nigger, its a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER GAME. You see people running around getting their ass handed to mobs, while you too get roflstomped by mobs.
Add 1 + 1 together, boom you got a group. Found some "friends" to play with in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME.
>the other half is exclusive group content with no barriers to playing with your friends
Again MASSIVE MULTIPLYER ONLINE GAME. Sure you could patiently wait for your friends like a bitch. Or you join one of many guilds or group up right at the entrance. Or guess what instead of using the "I'm to retarded to type"-finder you use the regionchat to get a group.
Wow! Man so difficult!
>Don't have friends? you can pug and also do some solo stuff
Or you close the game and play a singleplayer game if you want to play singleplayer.

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A bunch of shit WoW introduced as early as BC that was recycled by every MMO under the sun that followed this model because of its success.
>flying mounts destroying any scale the world might have had
>content released in cycles making all previous versions of the game utterly useless and not worth revisiting
>cross server shite
>homogenization of classes/specs shitting on the RPG side of the game for the sake of an unachievable "balance"
>lfg, lfr tools
>both making everything in the game about raids and letting players access it with no effort or requirements (everyone gets to be a hero! ;)), once again making the world feels smaller
>making professions irrelevant

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>Activision-Blizzard

Fixed that for you, mate.

It doesn’t shock me at all. The people praising XIV aren’t the same people who watched the genre crash and burn. They’re the ones who the ashes were scattered for.

I was never in a position to do Karazhan seriously, just a tourist in random pug and guild clears.

But Blackwing Descent, now THAT was a raid!

black temple, maybe it isn't the best, but the fact we were one of the 3 guilds who could enter in my server was exciting af and always is going to be in my memory, same with sunwell

>expacs with flying are the most popular
>expacs without flying are absolutely dead
wow really makes me think
how can you with a straight face claim FLYING is the problem, jesus christ this is just delusional

get a job, idiot you can't always group with people, you need to have SOMETHING to do when there's no one else around

Play shadowbringers

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>unironically thinking this looks good
Your taste is fucking shit.

Everyone wanting to be WoW and sadly outside of RS the big boy leading after WoW is XIV which is a generic WoW-clone that just hasn't had their WoD/BFA yet

Sounds like the path FFXIV has taken, especially so with ShadowBringers.

>so casuals ruined MMOs then
More or less, yes. The genre was never casual-friendly in the first place. Games like EQ required a large population of players with varied profiles to feel like a real and interesting world. That only worked when it was the only game in town and the one everyone was playing. When the only people playing MMOs are hardcore MMO players you don't get the same sense of virtual world and community.
>So shiteaters left for shit games instead of sticking to MMOs?
MMOs were always shit with a few redeeming qualities.

But user, FFXIV is a really bad game.

They tried too hard to appeal to the mainstream.
>The game takes too much time! It's too hard! Why would I have to go around making connections with other people just to progress? This isn't real life!
So now basically most of the content in nearly every MMO is trivial, people have no reason to interact with one another, and devs can't pump out content fast enough to keep up with the players because of how easy it is.

>tfw playing Aura Kingdom

YOU, THE PLAYERS

>Games like EQ required a large population of players with varied profiles to feel like a real and interesting world.
I think people are forgetting how important this is too; The shit from having basically one MMO to WoW ushering in a fuckton made the switch to singleplayer style seem even more important - okd style MMOs without a playerbase are actually unplayable. Avoiding this problem was solved by making the endgame the only group oriented part, which made those weaned in by the singleplayer portion put off and etc etc.

Of course there is always somebody around. If it weren't its not an MMO. I mean you also had easier quests you could technically do yourself but even those were not recommended.
Also its not like you need more time to play WoW than anything else. You can do a couple of quests log off and see those guys in your group never again.

Casualization of content isn't the problem, if anything it kept MMO's from dying out entirely 10 years ago.
The problem is you can't expect a fucking rpg to last as long as people seem to think mmo's should last. Only skill based games can stand the test of time.

casuals

When Blizzard introduced cash shop mount during Wrath of the Lich King. That was the moment premium MMO games went to the shitter.

they stopped making mmorpgs and started making mmoactionadventures

>when did FFXIV surpass WoW?
In 2013, when "A Realm Reborn" Launched.

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>This alone causes player made elitism and an ubermensch player base that decides what is and isn't allowed in them.
Player memes have always been a problem and will always be a problem in any "massively multiplayer" game. Either you're part of a smarter class of players that really understands the game (which can exist at all levels not just high end raiding), or you're just a member of the herd aping tactics you heard about online. There have always been players that will sit at the entrance to a dungeon earning nothing for hours waiting to form a class-optimized group instead of just gathering a group of smart and skilled players. And then their "optimized" group falls apart anyway in 30 minutes because the guy playing the meme required class turned out to be an unreliable retard.

And as far as elitism goes, that was the good part of MMOs. The fact that you had an actual class strata meant that noob players had something to look up to and elite players had an audience to impress. Without this social hierarchy, there is no "massively multiplayer" virtual world to experience.

MMOs died partly because the wide variety of casual-type players that used to flesh out the mid-tier ranks of the social hierarchy left to play other online games with less punishing and tedious mechanics. These games didn't exist when MMOs first got popular.

Vertical progression was an unsustainable development model in the long term.
Honestly, no game should go on for as long as WoW has. I’ve thought about how to fix the game’s problems and just looking at how long the game has been out it was inevitably either become a bloated mess or a simplified shell of its former self.

>i see more people on ffxiv's servers than on wow's servers now
thatll happen when you compare the 20 us ff servers to the 200 us wow servers

Pandering to people that played MMOs but complained about not being able to play them alone or not being able to get the same things that those who played all the time had

Corporations

You completely read my mind
Thank you

>Only skill based games can stand the test of time.
Simply wrong, unless you're counting tactical skill as "skill."
The problem with MMORPGs is that their systems tend to be shallow due to technical limitations and the need to have a real-time asynchronous combat system (MMORPGs have to be ARPGs and can't be turn-based).

I remember the Crown of the Hungry Jew

Your pic-related franchise killed MMOs.

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Explain.

>ARR better than MoP

You really can't trust reviewers.

You should prob read the user reviews, user. Your nostalgia glasses are fogging up how bad MoP was to play through.

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Personally I liked MOP a lot, but I didn’t bother with the daily quests. I never liked them and hadn’t done any religiously since like, Sunwell isle.

Tanking was just really fun at that point and I liked the setting, very whimsical. Flying around hunting rares was THE shit, since they made them all a decent fight too, and not just “mob, with more HP” like it’s regressed to now.

to be fair 5.0 was pretty terrible, but it did improve considerably with each patch.

Tl;dr kys fag

>t. assblasted herd member

This is it, there was nothing more fun than trying to gather a group for WC while fucking around in Barrens. There were even bosses in some starting zones iirc, and you needed a tiny party for that.
Leveling is the most fun you should have in an MMORPG, provided that people are open to making friends and grouping up for instances, hard quests and world bosses.
So what ruined it for me at least is was dungeon finder
>but muh 10th time leveling a character gets boring
There are ways to make leveling more exciting, add in more zones, add random events (they already have, except it's only in the end game and it's for fucking mounts only) or simply give leveling boosts and dungeon finding away as NG+ features.
Except they only updated low level zones in Cata and made dungeon finder the norm, which is ok for people with maxed out characters but does nothing for new players.

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>mmos as a concept were always just a social framework held together very loosely by a game.
It’s actually just the opposite. Everquest was so goddamn difficult that it forced the social aspect on you. Most classes couldn’t solo trash mobs so you needed others to help you do your shit. No LFG queue finder means you needed to be in a guild or make friends to do the high level stuff.

EverQuest

so MMOs were killed forever back in 1999?

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EQ didn't have instancing until LDON.
And LDON is what irrevocably shattered the willing suspension of disbelief for me.

LDONs were great at the time. Instanced dungeons were fun as fuck and much easier to find a group, but definitely contributed to the braindead mechanics for MMO’s today. That’s when leveling became running dungeon focused as opposed to getting a group and killing mobs in the wild. If I’m remembering correctly, they were somewhat randomized and picked from a list of objectives so you weren’t running the same dungeon over and over again. It looked like shit, but I liked it.

>Everquest was so goddamn difficult that it forced the social aspect on you
I generally say punishing and demanding more than difficult.
Skill ceiling in EQ is not really that high most of the time, especially if you aren't the puller or crowd control. The skill FLOOR is very high, though. You needed a baseline competence and ability to play with others. If you were a fuckup you'd be immediately and severely punished.
WoW was the opposite in that it has a generally higher skill ceiling for optimal play, but overall the game is much more forgiving and you can still be a shitter and make it to high level.

Anyone who enjoyed raiding would never call Mists 'bad to play through'. The top tier of content, raids, were excellent in that expansion. The worst thing they did was introduce the grinding for legendary for all classes. Legendaries were handled much better before Mists, even if not every class got one.

LDONs were fun but still obliterated any sense of immersion or virtual reality. You went through a cookie-cutter dungeon that felt like it was automatically-generated. Then you collected your tickets and brought them to the Wayfarer Prize counter to redeem them for your stuffed animal toy.

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And that is why everquest was a trash game that died while wow succeeded, needing to be a NEET who's constantly grinding and getting randos to do the most basic tasks is not fun

XIV now lets you run dungeons with actual NPCs instead of player, making the single player game meme a reality.

>That’s when leveling became running dungeon focused as opposed to getting a group and killing mobs in the wild.
Also, dungeon-diving was always possible in EQ, the level spread just meant that they were rarely designed so you could clear from start-to-finish in one session, and due to the mana needs of casters it was almost always more efficient to stay in one place and pull mobs to you.

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>XI was console kiddy trash that was not only garbage but could literally be solod in its entirety by trusts
>retarded weebs shill the game and swear on their life it was good
>it gets literally remade as final fantasy xiv
>the game bombs so hard that it almost bankrupts SE
>now it's a shoddy wowclone
>weebs also praise this
I swear faggot fantasy drones have no self awareness, they'll praise their shitty and irrelevant games high and low and then a few years down the line, wham a disaster happens to SE because these games are crap and don't actually sell outside of a niche market of literal trannies

>is not fun
EQ was more than fun, it felt like a real alternate world. That's why it was so successful. Without it, there would have been no MMORPG genre at all.

EQ was trash and mmos exist because the guys at blizzard played it and said "this is garbage" and made wow, which was better in literally every way
>inb4 hurr hurr being successful doesn't make it good
please spare me any cope

>tfw playing on an Aura Kingdom private server
I don't think it's something I'd keep up with long-term though

>in literally every way
It wasn't though. Trust me, I'm far more familiar than you are with EQ's flaws and the many ways that WoW was superior. Your attempts to get a rise out of me with such lazy shitposting are laughable. EQ got the virtual world right in a way that WoW imitated poorly due to its casual-pandering mentality.

world of warcraft

Epeen. And furries, probably.

Mmos died because the prevailing logic of developers (following the EQ/wow model) has been to constantly churn empty content that is nothing more than a gear treadmill while abandoning core mmo elements. In this sense the longevity of the mmo world is only maintained by continously refreshing player's short term goals, which utterly undermines the unique aspect of playing on a persistent online server, which is the players capacity to create their own narratives through long term interpersonal interaction.

The obvious problem with this is that once the MMO component is present in name only, what's the actual point of playing?

Vanilla wow, Eve online and pre-abyssia ffxi have been the only mmos in my experience that even attempted to develop the unique aspects of what the genre can deliver.

>furries
those saved mmos, it's weebs who destroyed them

mmo's died because none could compete with wow, so everybody stopped trying, except asians but nobody plays that shit, and so after wow went to shit we have nothing. classic will save the genre though

Tigole and raid culture

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The problem with WoW is that the overland doesn't get the love it deserves. WoW is all about Raid or Die.

and/or Arena or Die

after all, it was you and me

Remember when retarded youtubers like totalbiscuit shouted
>fuck the casuals, everything should cater to the hardcore 1%
and he spouted this all through the cataclysm beta and then blizzard listened to him and the expansion was shit?
Remember when people like him and others defended activision?

Allowing everyone to be the same and hand holding/guides and data mining.

Nothing can be a secret and people will not keep quiet about anything because they know they can get some likes on jewtube and the like if they make a guide.

It also comes down to community and game diversity, without one big game for everyone to migrate towards there’s a split in player base and due to how easy the game is now no one is tiered at the bottom looking up at the best because they know they can get there via some grinding and dailies, we need people who will never achieve end game and we need a tiered community again, without it, it’s just a bunch of neets running around showing off mount collections to other people who have the same shit.

People need to learn to accept mediocrity and it’s okay to not have the skills/luck to obtain a legendary item or epic gear and just play the game still without that looming over them.

>let’s just add matchmaking and shit
sharded worlds are bad, especially when populations go down, but cross-world matchmaking is cancer since they have no obligation to perform, because you may never even see them again

>The problem with WoW is that the overland doesn't get the love it deserves.
Does it even matter when there are flying mounts?

greed
they kept turning up the pacing and simplifying the game to accommodate all the casuals and it bit them in the ass instead

Over the years they have cut and changed the things that drew in people to replace them with things that are just there to make things take longer. the idea is the longer it takes to get basic things the longer people will play. As it turns out it, people do not like RNG being the be all, end all for everything. They like being rewarded for their work instead of hoping for luck gods to smile upon them.

Also with so many online games/services/sites there is tons of competition for peoples time. There are endless online games. social media. all those streaming services.

real reason is that they cant figure out what their audience is. Wow did everything over the years to fuck over casual players that liked questing, grouping for dungeons and clearing normal raids
the game as it is right now is designed for mounts pets cheevos collector LFR trannies and sub 1% population mythic raiders who are sponsored to play this shit game. There is basically no middle class

cope

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what is this supposed to prove retard? People clearing previous tiers when the new gear inflates stats by 100%?

This. WoW is for people who play 60 hours a week and 2 hours a week.

>sub 1% population mythic raiders
that's at least 219320 players who killed at least one mythic raid boss from the last raid, without taking into account non-guild groups
but yes people don't care about mythic amirite

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Delusional nonsense, people aren't going to play a game they're not going to get a sense of achievement from just because you want them to. Tiered gameplay is just another treadmill and will always devolve into a casual fest because when a game relies on subscriptions to survive of course the first thing developers will respond to is the difficulty of the tiered gameplay (because it's inevitably the only thing worth playing for when 99% of developer resources are spent on it).

This is the point, an MMO that fundamentally relies on instanced raiding content to keep players engaged, that is entirely divorced from any persistence, is not actually an MMO. It's a multiplayer game with an irrelevant overworld chat. You can't build an MMO with long term appeal with nothing but self-annihilating short term goals that are achieved through working within an interchangeable group of randoms within a completely separated instance from the main overworld.

EVE is the only game that has gotten this properly right. The game is built entirely around facilitating player interaction and player goals that allow for organic narratives to develop and thus a far more involved sense of participation within the game regardless of skill. It actually rewards interacting with others, building friendships and has the scope to allow for players to rule entire empires.

On a tangent, does anyone remember, whatever the game, the time when you had mythical players on their servers? Usually part of a super successful guild, almost always had big rivals? There were stories of their shenanigans on the community forums, shit talking wherever they went in local chat, you could always rile up certain people who were jealous of them by just mentioning their name or guild?

That's the kind of community building that's lost in the majority of MMOs nowadays.

MMOs

target system combat
hotkey system combat

I'm gonna go with greed.

When you're designing a game, any kind of game, you can't be thinking in terms of finance. You have to concentrate fully on making a good game first and foremost.

When you get that right, the other stuff falls into place.

THE ICE AGE

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Wrong. Trying to balance the classes and trying to balance loot around endgame raiding and pvp killed the game. The game was most fun when it was actually possible to become a god in pvp. It was most when when trinkets actually had unique effects. Fun is being sucked out in favor of balance, in favor of the game becoming the esport that no one but Acti-Blizz wants.

instant gratification

Legion being better than Stormblood is totally correct but Heavensward being lower than Warlords is a fucking crime.

casuals

Fuck off, go raid in ESO, oh wait.

1) Time. Trying to appeal to filthy casuals who complained that they won't pay if they don't get everything handed on the silver plate. Games and internet were rather niche back in the day. In late 00's everyone and their mother were shitposting on the net, becoming the new audience for pretty much everything, and it gets worse and worse every day.

2) Laziness. Stale formula with the same meta game. New raid, new battleground, a bunch of quests to grind through. Endless status quo with zero innovation. Nobody even tried to implement something crazy and push the genre further. All other devs didn't do anything as well, but simply copied WoW, to get a slice of the pie.

3) Greed. Nothing in this world should last decades, there are not enough relevant material in any franchise ever to keep the quality high for such long period. Developers are humans too, and get tired by working on the same turd for many years. Teams change, design choices pile on top of each other, mistakes get sewn together like a flesh monster, while old audiences get constantly replaced by newcomers. A true masterpiece, just like a real gentleman, should know when to retire. Investors would never allow to kill their golden cow, hence why almost every franchise in existence becomes a cashgrab milked for generations.

Those 3 reasons, in any order you prefer.

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The stupid faggot players that think they should be rewarded more for their time and their skill or knowledge.

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Such a sophisticated way of constructing sentences, i almost got an itch in my panties. I agree with your point, but please, stop speaking like this

youtube.com/watch?v=_1rXqD6M614

I've read that in an old englishman voice.

WoW was never good

Just almost? I'm disappointed with myself. Apologies but if it wasn't already clear, I'm a baffling autistic snob, can't change now I'm afraid, too far gone.

The best answer is simply Free 2 Play MOBA and Arena Shooters.
The casual market moved from MMO to those around 2011.
From there they moved onto digital TCG and Battle Royale.
Multiplayer games are fads.

There is a laundry list of problems with MMO in general, but none of that really mattered as much as just waning popularity with the market at large.

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Reminder that Classic will not have a high number of players in the long run. Only boomerfags that are the majority of Classic's audience will stay. Or do you retards think that ActiBlizz is making Classic for the younger, future audience? Of course not. It is made to drive oldfags from the private servers and back to their fold so that they can charge them to play a game that they have already played (because they are fucking ADDICTED) and to appease them (since it's clear from the Diablo debacle that the oldfags are stirred and angry with the current corporate practices).

Not to mention and leaving aside Asmongold, the squads of streamers and their hordes of followers that will spread cancer to the game....
It's clear as day that the game is a ridiculously easy-to-make containment zone. For oldfags.

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> It's all ancient history, it doesn't matter anymore

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Morhaime the Jew smelled that from miles away and left. And as you can see multiple others followed. Activision Blizzard is by far not the same company anymore.
Imagine playing WoW and your quests are literally Candy Crush quests from mobile.

>all these people saying it's a flaw with the genre or there's too much other competition
>when really it's just that developers aren't making actual mmos anymore
The original draw of mmos was the world and the community, both things that have been manufactured out of modern mmos. If someone made an actual mmo again I guarantee it would be popular.
And don't give me that Wildstar bullshit, it was a soulless nu-mmo pretending to be a return to classic.

botters, bad pvp changes, MTX having too much influence over macro-level stuff or the economy, bad new-player experience or earlygame content & an inability to bring in new players to the fold

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