What happened to Tim Cain? Why is he trying to kill rpgs?

so whats the aim basically?
i really cannot imagine a game where numbers arent involved unless its purely a walking sim
so instead of having a level 10 sword mastery skill, it just translates into having a grandmaster sword mastery skill

how will that even work?
you go into a cutscene and the villain just loses to a cinematic fight because you have that one skill

To be fair the fallout 4 perk system really isn't great, especially for trying to create unique characters quickly.

kingdom hearts sword/shield/wand

wont people just end up quantifying the bonuses from those at the end of the day?

Speaking of Deus Ex, I remember how the weapon screen would give insanely detailed stat informing, including how the base stats were affected by modifiers like your skill level. I thought that was the coolest shit, and this seems like it's going for the exact opposite approach.

Yes, they will, which is why "no numbers" is a retarded thing to consider an upside.

He seems to be knocking point buy rather than 4's shitty perk system though.

>so instead of having a level 10 sword mastery skill, it just translates into having a grandmaster sword mastery skill
his example is exaclty this, instead of having 3 Str you have "great" str, his "proposal" is pretty much that you should only give the player a choice between a 4-2-2 or a 3-3-1 split

>great
>ok
>yucky
Jesus Christ, the Outer Worlds is going to be garbage isn't it?

Probably, I still have higher hopes for it than I do for Cyberpunk 2077 though.

Imagine being too lazy to use your brain.

welcome to current year friend

wouldnt that make less sense tho?
since youre using or susbtituting arbitrary words to quantify stats

i mean at least with numbers you can easily see your damage numbers going up

Having hope at all, bless you user

Overly complex is as bad as overly simple. There's a middle ground somewhere with stats complex enough to please metagamers but intuitive enough to please casuals. A surprising number of games seem to have found a nice place there in the middle, and it's only really retarded devs who whine about complexity and ruin their game to please casuals. Casuals don't even want a game where there are no stats, they want a game where they progress without feeling like a retard.

Take Pokemon, for example. The average 10 year old can play and beat the game, but there's still a large audience of adults who enjoy the metagame, breeding max IV pokemon and training max EV stats for the relevant ones. As in the case of Pokemon, the stats are hidden away or somewhat obscure. Largely irrelevant to the casual, but still accessible to the metagamer.

>fallout 4 SPECIAL overcomplicated
HUH?
Also PoE skill tree isn't even hard. It's just overwhelming at first. This is some CoD mentality right here.

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>yucky

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To be fair, PoE is actually trash, it looks great on paper, but every build boils down to select same nodes (life>dmg>misc and traveling nodes), so it kind of only gives you an illusion of choice

so, there are still numbers behind the scenes, the player just doesn't get to see them.
what is the point of that?

What a hack.

Its already been proven that people respond more to having 7-9 basic stats to choose from and a myriad of funcional skills + optional features (or perks), it helps with verisimilitude. They discovered this and have been doing it since the 80s, why do we suddenly need to go back in time with simplistic design sense like a "triangle form" for rpg design when we know the thing people care about is the first to letters of that acronym. Role. Play. Not optimization of my S++ ranking card on my gotcha phone app.

Hardcore staters and minmaxes wont like this either, because it has no creativity... Nothing for them to sink their teeth into when it comes to producing optimal paths. Its just, I did a thing and now Im on the best path.

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video please

but... thats still numbers at the end of the day.
Yucky -1
Ok -2
good -3
great -4

Holy fucking shit, is this like 4D trolling or something?

Because POE having a complicated stat system is WHY its been so long term successful, WTF.
And people absolutely HATED them dumbing down Fallout's stats and RPG aspects.

Is this really where zoomers are taking us? Really? Because I remember back in the day when every game had a shit ton of mechanics that you could tweak and experiement with and it was great.

WTF is going on now?

This has to be a joke, I refuse to believe this isn't parodic

This seems more like obfuscation that simplification.

phoneshit. It's all for the sake of phoneshit. All the money is in exploiting human psychology these days, and you need to get on the phone to exploit peoples' addictions.
I think you mean John Bane

>some guy has opinion
who cares

Proof that code monkeys shouldn't touch the design

I don’t Cyberpunk 2077 looks way better. I’ll still probably get both.

Yeah, I don't care about vidya games either

>zoomers
Yeah, look at that dyed HY hair cut on Cain in OP's pic, sure looks like a zoomer to me

Its being aimed at zoomers though dude. He's not making it for himself, he's making it for an audience.

This, but the problem is SPECIAL in the original fallout struck this balance, then the nuFallout games pared it back significantly into overly simplistic territory. He's suggesting we go into baby mode.

On this-- Who here enjoyed them getting rid of the RPG aspects of system shock and replacing it with Bioshocks less numerical system of perks?

>look up tim cain to see what games hes made
>spouse: robert land

hahahaha

i like bio shock as a FPS but not as an RPG

he's right if you want to make a game that can work for smooth brains
in poe people just copy builds because they are too dumb to make them
obviously it's not something i want but my goals as a player are different than someone that wants to sell video games to brainlets

Bioshock is trash, but it's not because of them paring down the RPG elements, it's because it's slow as molasses and not fun at all to play. Prey is what Bioshock should have been.

it's 2019 user

He's just trying to market to subhumans.
Why are you being so bigoted, niggers, women, jews and spics also have a right at playing video games you monster.

>>spouse: robert land
What a weird name for a game, sounds like an art project. Are there more games in the spouse series?

Choose your class:
Speed
Power
Defense

Thats it

not for you hahahaha

In CRPGs, stats MUST be hidden from the player

I've never met or heard of anyone in the videogame industry who realizes this. The reason why stats are so prominent in real-life RPGs is because SOMEONE has to make the necessary calculations, and without the help of a computer the players are forced to do this boring work themselves.

When computers enter the scene, there is absolutely NO REASON why the player should have to see any numbers on the screen. Indeed, in my days as gamemaster back in high school I used to roll all the dice behind a screen: my players would simply tell me the action they wanted their characters to perform and I would respond with the result, without them ever having to calculate anything.

This is how CRPGs should work. The reason why they never work like that is purely historical. As mentioned earlier in this essay, CRPG designers initially focused on the stats because it was the easiest part of real RPGs they felt they could simulate. Thus CRPGs started out as strategy games and never really moved on from there, creating, in the process, generations of players with an unhealthy numbers fetishism who miss the point of role-playing entirely.

The end result is that decades-old adventure games such as The Secret of Monkey Island have more role-playing elements in them than most anything that gets passed off as a CRPG these days. (Some BioWare titles such as Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect do contain elements of role-playing, but the strategy and action components are so completely dominant, that the games end up feeling almost nothing like RPGs.)

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Shouldn't it be:
Speed
Power
Magic?

that's the normal RPG Triumvirant (Rogue, fighter, Wizard). When you put defense into it it normally morphs into a square instead.

Because he's fat and gay.
He takes it up the ass.
He bites the pillow.
He chases bugs.

Larianchads rise up.

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> There is absolutely NO REASON why the player should have to see any numbers on the screen
What if the player wants to predict things accurately, user?

It's Current Year™, so spread your anus for me faggot.

This is sadly more or less how it is.

"We" aren't the target anymore. We're not. Video games is a business, not an art. They're in it to make money for corporate suits who don't give a FUCK about games and literally know nothing about it but have to be spoonfed what a game is and what trends are via power point presentations.

As such, where's the money nowadays? Micro-transactions and phones. Why? Because of the chinese mainly-- Very few over there have game machines or computers because they are quite literally slaves in everything but name, but they have phones.
So that's where your business is going to be.

Additionally, you can cater to the casual crowd that spends mommy and daddy's money on microtranscations but doesn't really do games for anything more than a few minute time killer while they're waiting for something like a ride.

Gamers aren't the market anymore, they don't want to target us anymore, and hence game design is having to be about telling people "Don't make it for what people who enjoy this shit like. Make it simple and understandable in 5 seconds because casuals aren't going to spend more than 5 seconds learning it before they go fuck it and chuck it".

>no numbers
yeah thats fan fuckingtastic there literally who. I like figuring out which skills is inherently stronger in SMT when there are hundreds of high attacks to choose from. do they all hit the same or one of them crit more? i have no idea.

this is pasta

this is fucking stupid, why would a character not know how good they are with a sword or how strong they are? I agree with combat meta ruining some of the game but it should be replaced with skill not just exist. Like how stupid would it be to recruit a guy and not know what his deal was? I mean like if you want a mage you should be able to look at someone and say "okay that guy is a mage" or whatnot, not take a wild guess by what he is wearing, also the DnD example you gave is dumb because people still had character sheets to check their skills on.

This doesn't make any sense.

>literally who?
>Tim fucking Cain

I hate zoomers so much.

nobody cares about people who make obscure pc rpgs

I know this is a pasta but devs seem to actually think this and it's infuriating

Reminds me of Dragon Age where there were skills that would do things like "make enemies less accurate", yeah good job game, nice for making it so I have no idea whether I should bother with this spell or not

Nah, its gonna be great and will send Yea Forums into sheeting mode for months, just like The Witcher 3, BOTW, RDR2, Monster Hunter World and every game you people have predicted it would be gargabe for the past 5 years.

PoE and Fallout are shit though. He's right.

So isn't Yea Forums suposed to be an anti-normie niche-focused board? Guess its really time to accept Reddit rules this place.

I don't understand. Flip a triangle? What does that mean?

I need to dig up the assigned male comic where he says its transphobic to say you don't want to fuck trannies because you shouldn't be able to tell

I blame the MMO triangle for this shit. If games could just just break away from the model we wouldn't have retards recommending even more triangles.

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Yea Forums is
>you are wrong and I will discard my own moral compass and logic to prove it with any desperate reach or any bit of contrarian faggotry you can possibly imagine

This is the average shitposter. Having a code or values is not the point. It's just to bait, to get a response, to be shitty. I don't get it, but there you go.

>expansion pack decides to emphasize the importance of a particular buff skill by giving it its own UI element to keep track of its duration
>in doing so it removes the actual tooltip telling you how much of a buff it is
>people still don't know how much it buffs your damage

>So isn't Yea Forums suposed to be an anti-normie niche-focused board?
no? Is this RPGcodex? what games do you see people talking about on Yea Forums? It's all japanese nintendo console trash

This would make a fucking sense if you watched the whole talk he did on the subject instead of posting stupid shit along others itt.
youtube.com/watch?v=MEewLWDpscA

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*puffs up chest*
I HAVE VALUES AND THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE ME UPSET DO NOT
click post

>yucky
Is he 6 years old? Da fuck?

close, he's a neo-liberal

only mentally

gender specials really are cancer
turning clear narcissistic shitheads into a protected class

You have to go back.

Why are nerds scared of numbers?

He's fucking retarded and fails to understand what people like about character build systems in the first place

He's not entirely wrong but he dumbs it down too much. Araki, Nasu, and other nips solved this decades ago, just use letters if you want to obfuscate the values for any reason. It still let's you know that a B grade sword is inferior to an A grade. It even gets "more complicated" in an intuitive way, because the sword can have B rank toughness, A grade sharpness, and C grade length (or whatever) and now you can compare with another sword that has D grade toughness, A grade sharpness, and B grade length. Or whatever. It still solves the problem of being an autistic comparison chart (even though that could still exist), but doesn't gut the core functionality of being able to compare values between two objects.

Genuinely believe that people making games are severely retarded and lack any kind of perspective.

Well, he is doing this exactly trying to cater to the opposite of nerds

>would rather have vague random words for stats instead of immediately understandable and quantifiable numbers
This is such a stupid 'solution' to an incredibly simple problem. It would create so many more issues than it would solve. For one, how much worse is "OK" than "Great", what about 'Yucky"?
If you were that worried about idiots not understanding "low number = bad", all you would have to do is add a descriptor word next to the existing number stat system.
>INT: 1 [Poor]
>STR: 10 [Great]
Wow so hard.

Not to mention people fucking hate it when RPGs give vague bullshit descriptions like "Increases damage somewhat", people want to see the fucking numbers. Who is this system even supposed to appeal to?

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Thing is, the numbers are still there, just hidden to the player. Eventually the community will figure out by trial and error or simply data mining what are the best set ups for that game anyway.

replayed Bioshock 2 and System Shock 2 recently and i was surprised by how fun Bioshock 2’s tonic exchanges were. I was changing my build based on whether I had to do a harvest or buy something. System Shock 2 by comparison just feels so uninteresting because of how the skills interacted with your gameplay.

>Genuinely believe that people making games are severely retarded and lack any kind of perspective.
He has senile game designer syndrome

Nerds love numbers, this guy is one of those mental "savior of the little people" type faggots who get really hot and bothered that someone might get left out of other people's hobbies and cultures. His idea of success is the most cumbrained Iphone user successfully completing his rpg.

>listen to the triangle part
>Make it as easy as possible so normies aren't afraid
>Make it as manipulative as possible so people get addicted
It makes sense, he is a total dick

But nerds love numbers. Dumb american "nerds" that only want the most surface level franchises and products hate math.

Reminds them that they aren't actually smart and only think they are smart because they can comprehend the plot of shallow franchises.

being real with you guys here, POE is a mess because at the end of the day you have to do specific niche builds in order to fucking do the content. You get this WHOLE fucking tree, and ultimately all of it us useless if you dont do very specific shit cause you'll just die and kill nothing if you do anything fun.

POE's system is fucked for that reason.

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200 million players that that are addicted to his glorified visual poker machine

are we talking about Pillars of Eternity or Path of Exile?

Ah, it makes sense now. He's a businessman, not a game designer.

look at the graph in the first image
you should recognize it

Simple isn't better than complicated

The ideal system is complicated, but simple for the user to understand and use.

Example:
Halo's weapons and enemy selection. Every weapon behaves in a unique way. Every enemy behaves in a unique way.

Enemies with different weapons, behave differently. Enemies paired with different enemies behave in different ways. Enemies react differently to different types of weapons.

The interactions are complex and dynamic. They make the game extremely replayable and fun, yet it's all simple and easy to understand for the player.

This is the kind of thing so many dumbfuck retards in game dev don't understand. They pursue simple for the sake of simplicity and end up creating shitty phone games masquerading as PC games which don't sell and leave them scratching their dumbfuck heads why it didn't work.

>POE's system is fucked for that reason.
No, it's fucked because Sawyer is autistic about game """balance""".

BANE?

POE's issue is that its a very hardcore Pro-ranged, anti-melee system.
It also doubles down hard on being anti-tank in that it relies on one shot mechanics for its gameplay, and will hardcore nerf any tank type builds that look to halfway work.

Due to this anything besides a rocket tag type build is going to suck.

path of exile
that poster is retarded tho there are a lot of builds you can do in poe and complete the content. especially if you are a shitcrow, which post players are

>To be fair, PoE is actually trash, it looks great on paper, but every build boils down to select same nodes (life>dmg>misc and traveling nodes), so it kind of only gives you an illusion of choice
That's all it takes though. People want the opportunity to put their own mark on things, you have to give them enough rope to hang themselves or they won't feel connected to it.

Why does this happen so much? Are there any developers who didn't either become senile if they don't retire early?

He explains well why old ui design wasn't that great. Easy to understand doesn't mean the game should be easy too. You can make complex systems with simple interface. That's all.

*make immortal melee build that forces ggg to start implementing hard caps on resistances*
"melee sure is bad"
you guys are such aids

>POE skill tree
>complicated
m8 its literally take HP, damage and maybe a keynode. The only complicated part is how to path for these stats.

the only good thing I could see coming from this kind of game design is that it would be easier to balance properly since you have limited the player's options so much

look at that fucking skill tree and tell me WHY even bother if you gotta do the "lot of builds" that are really just like very specific min/max builds that destroy any real freedom of choice.

Either you move with the times or delve further into your own dysfunctional delusions, Obsidan as a whole seems to favour the latter
Usually happens to game designers falling on hard times, they do something that doesn't work and instead of improving they double down on the stupid things they're doing

Shit happens with nearly all creatives in all art forms. Sure, there are outliers, but creatives will often lose their way as they get older. Ridley Scott and John Carpenter are good movie examples of this.

There wouldn't be much to balance because player agency would be so little. You might as well just drop the RPG moniker and just make an action game with the gameplay balanced around that.

hes correct, those games have bad character progression. they present the illusion of choice and option with out actually providing it. a million newbie traps and one or two optimal builds is not choice, its obfuscation.

a good system that still provides complexity would be a branching class based system where each point along the path of class upgrades is tested and balanced to be an enjoyable play experience

>This would make a fucking sense if you watched the whole talk he did on the subject instead of posting stupid shit along others itt.
yeah we got the idea. He wants to addict more people to his MTXville people farm to get more money. To do this he'll ruin game genres to attract the literal sub 80 iqs by making games that appeal to them.

Get him aboard, I'll call it in.

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basically the runescape combat triangle

melee
mage
range

they get promoted up the ladder and stop actually making anything and their minds focus on increasing revenue

>at the end of the day you have to do specific niche builds in order to fucking do the content
I think it was their goal to have your build UNABLE to do EVERY content. They wanted the player to have specific characters for specific goals.
I wish they revised their damage calculation so the dps numbers aren't so fucking bloated.

except you have a shitton of skills in runescape that this guy would want to get rid of

Devs need to stop treating their players as retards.

Dude, there's NEVER been immortal melee builds-- any tankiness that melee can take ranged can take too due to the skill systems "Anyone can get anything" setup.

Any tankiness they've nerfed has been due to ranged being unkillable just as much as melee (If not more due to not having the NEED for extra tankiness like melee does).

why the fuck does EVERY game in the world need to be able to be played by EVERYONE these days?

arcanum was a fucking mess in terms of balance but I prefer it that way because there are dozens of different ways you can build your character and it's up to you to figure out how to make it work, I'll take that any day over something like skyrim where you basically just choose what kind of attack animations you want to kill your enemies with

mostly they just need to decide what market they want to compete in and design their shit accordingly

No no you don't understand, they want to make retards their main playerbase. The point of these conferences is to ask "how do we get the farmville populace into our traditionally male oriented fantasy rpgs?" People who actually care about this nerd shit are fewer than the ones who don't.

money

because s󠀀oy󠀀s will off themselves if they're not included

Because everything is for everyone you fucking bigot :^)

>Western RPGs haven't been good since last decade
>Japanese RPGs have never been better
Feels good to be a weeaboo
Grim Dawn was still good as fuck.

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devs just dont want to put any effort into making a good game

retards bought fallout 4 this is just the next step

Off-topic but this is the only vaguely relevant thread and I don't want to start a new one. I'm going to play Divinity Original Sin 2 for the first time. I want to play mostly blind gameplay wise, but I still want to know if there are any noob-trap aspects to the systems. Are there any stats or skills to absolutely avoid?

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it doesnt, but good games should be made again.
the people who like PoE actually enjoy playing it because of buzzwords and ideas they have about the game. These fantasies alone have managed to trick them into thinking they are having fun, when in reality they are suffering.

In order to save them from these addictive idealisms we must correct video games

This comic is surreal.

Okay, so hear me out. What if we do a triangle design for stats, but

>There are 3 triangles
>You can only max one point on each triangle, or go jack-of-all-trades
>Triangle 1 could be Magic/Physical/Health
>Triangle 2 could be Speed/Evasion/Defense
>Triangle 3 could be Magic Defense/Attack Speed/Accuracy

There could also be a 4th triangle that has no effect in battle, something like Luck/Charisma/Sneak

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No shit sherlock. How is this easier or better?

Hard class based systems provide the most choice. You get as many fully viable and optimized choices as there are classes.

Everything else provides less choice while providing the illusion of more choice.

No it's just Achewood.

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Nah, stat min/maxing gives you the most choice. The choice to fail is also a choice.

i'm concerned these aren't edits

truly, it$ my$tery a$ to why $omeone would in$ist their product$ have ma$$ appeal to large$t $hare of the market.

why do people who hate RPG's continue to make them?
just make action games and advertise them as action games.

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The choice to fail is a single choice with many different ways to accomplish it. its a single thing to be suboptimal, a thing you will immediately ignore once you learn the game.

No that's just the way the comic is. I just posted it because that's what I have saved on my laptop and people pay more attention when you post with an image.

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Whenever I replay Xenoblade Chronicles X, I purposefully choose the least optimal builds for fun. Ditto Pokemon.

No he died of cancer

Some people cut themselves for fun.

Lol if you combine the triangles in a way that accounts for the degree of proficiency it makes a star of david

Only one man can save us from this nightmare

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looking at the triangles, hes trying to fix the fucked minds of 'muh freedums' skill based retards and reintroduce wholesome class based systems.

Looking at what hes doing; having general characteristics and having combinations where either one is good and two are lesser or two are decent and one is absent.
This is a class based system. All he needs to do is take these 6 possible combinations and make 6 classes out of it.
Developers can, behind the scenes, simply balance the game around the idea of 6 classes, and players can have the 'freedom' to rotate their triangles how ever the fuck they want.

I don't know what sort of bullshit his little presentation is about, but making up my own shit right now, imagine three possible ways you could go with a stat system using a set of triangles.
>Dead center is "average"
With each point being an extreme of one of three different variables. Doesn't allow you to max all three, so you have to sacrifice at least one to be good at the other two. The usual Strength - Speed - Smarts divide or whatever that effectively break your character role roughly into that D100 class image.
>Bottom "yucky" point
Your character basically being an invalid down there, but bringing it up to the top center on either side makes you specialized in one of two related variables. Like strength being a case of choosing a "bodybuilder" or "ripped", each coming with their own advantages and limits.
>One "Great" top point from two OK points
I don't know, some shit like two different stats that compliment one another, so raising both has a positive effect on some tertiary mechanic. For example Oblivion's Intelligence and Willpower Attributes both having an effect on the rate at which you regenerate Magicka.

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Classes are cancer.

The sad part is that you have no idea what makes a RPG good, what makes a RPG bad, why these stats are even used, or what a better or worse system looks like. I'm not saying his idea isn't retarded - it might be, it happens - but I doubt you can clearly state the benefit of having, say, Endurance as a stat or computer hacking as a skill.

the problem is what practical gameplay difference will there be between one triangle next to another on your big triangle?
You have a class system there, the strenght of class systems is you can make custom dynamic content for each class, making playing the game a different experience entirely.

If you are to take so many 'options that most of them are simply minute differences with more or less the same functionality, the devs can get lazy and not make unique experiences at all.

So I take it this is what we can expect The Outer Worlds to be based on? Tim Cain is working on the project.

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Yes yes i know.
Hey! Why dont you have a look at these triangles little guy? you like shapes, right?

yeah theyre totally yucky

are you implying that path of exile isn't class based?

brave new world product enjoys rigid hierarchies consisting of extreme specialization
shocked

Tim's last works were Pillars of Eternity and Wildstar.

The ideal way to do it would to have a comprehensive skill system that has various skills/spells and each one is only available to specific sections of the triangle. So for example you'd have some basic healing spell that most of the lower-right portion of the triangle could use or a basic spinning attack that most of the top portion of the triangle could use. Then add some system where you can combine skills to make new skills (example being combining the spin attack + basic healing spell to create an AOE healing skill, or combining a fireball and a charging attack to make a "flame trail" skill and such). Then have something unique for the classes closer to the vertices to make up for their lack of combo options. However in all practicality that would require a much smaller triangle sheet to be workable.

its about as class based as TESO which is to say its some abomination

He's actually not completely wrong.

There's a lot of content bloat in RPG's, they can often be filled with features that are pointless and hurt the core elements of the game.

When it comes to design you ideally want as little clutter as possible.

The triangle made a bit of sense as a power trade off thing.

>Mathil posted a video a few days ago of killing Uber Elder (the hardest boss) on a level 68 character with like 2000 HP and low level gems along with crap gear

You're just incorrect.

Seriously, how am I supposed to indulge my autism if there isn't some convoluted system I can spend hours micromanaging for minor gameplay advantages?

Not even joking, I love that sort of shit.

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Just make seeing/editing RPG stats optional, jesus christ.

>simple STRING/FAST/MAGIC for casuals, gives you stuff automatically
>turn on Expert mode,
>now you can edit/choose basically every aspect of your character and create whack builds

Except PoE has Ascendancy Classes and has for a long time.

This is reinventing the wheel at its finest.

I'm all for a different spin, since novelty is inherent to entertainment, but are people actually so allergic to numbers that you've got to spin like this confusing system is inherently better?

you can spend hours contemplating a 1 point stat difference on two otherwise identical pieces of equipment and testing it under many varied scenarios and situations, keeping track of everything in a spreadsheet.

Path of Exile's passives tree is shit for the sole reason of "the illusion of choice".

And this is the direct responsibility of the developers who have driven their own game ("a looter crawler") in the singular direction of "mapping" which demands builds that even more than the average ARPG to be able to clear screen fulls of trash at maximum possible speed.

• going slow worsens rare drop chances / hour
• going slow worsens chance to fall victim to one-shot mechanics
• going slow worsens performance of time-sensitive mechanics
• going slow worsens community performance/adversely affects economy
• going slows worsens low-level game experience (which repeats every "season")
• going slow worsens party experience (keep up or GTFO, n00b)
• et cetera

>Yucky

i want to go slowwww
fuck off mors you geriatric faggot

the range of options available in a skill based system is inherently limited becuase a skill base system is just obfuscation of a monoclass system providing only one real options. The entire skill mechanism is the equivalent of stat optimization for a single class. This reduces options.

>Yucky

>oversimplified objectivity

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Isn't the PoE endgame just the same builds making the entire point of nodes worthless?
I haven't followed that game in a while.
Basically Diablo III has the same condensed style with the skills and runes shit

I agree. Seems like a lot of western games' quality is being deduced to appease to broader, generally more retarded audience; whereas Japanese devs don't give a fuck and just make great and weird games.

It isn't. Tim just wants to sell more games because most of the player base are fucking nitwits. Pic related.

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This honestly sounds like the worst thing ever, please for the love of God just give me the numbers.

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>System Shock 2 by comparison just feels so uninteresting because of how the skills interacted with your gameplay.

Literally what

The skill/stats system completely changes your play style and can actively alter your course through the first half game. How the hell is that uninteresting?

He wants the casual braindead audience.

>Isn't the PoE endgame just the same builds making the entire point of nodes worthless?

If equipment didn't bestow stacking, multiplicative bonuses in narrow scopes in the game mechanics that would be the truth. But depending on your gear builds can vary wildly. That is why people in the thread of said "spec health and damage" (generic damage specifically per your damage type) with little more detail... because gear dictates builds more than the passive tree itself does. Buy X keystone with Y gear to support it and in most cases you are at a significant disadvantage.

So if it's 4-2-2 or 3-3-1, and those correlate to stats (eg strength dexterity intelligence) then mathematically it is always advantages to take 4-2-2 because say for example an attack takes one stat, you use the highest and deal more than the other, if it takes 2 stats then they are both the same, but if it takes 3 stats then the first one becomes better due to more stats. This is stupid

i like chex quest. i like rpg,

In the same speech he says you should design your game to be addictive, I guess after so many flops he is selling out.

>gear dictates builds more than the passive tree itself does
sounds like the tree is pointless then and should be removed :^)

He's right about that. You want to design any game to be very more-ish, not a chore. Addictive is just a very poor choice of words, because he's Tim Cain and I guess he lost 30 IQ points between now and his last directed project.

That's ARPGs man, you go for a set build but might have to muck around a bit depending on the RNG drop gods.

i think it's bad game design, but it's good business
path of exile, after you work out the complexity, just becomes a mindless wealth grind, but this is very addictive for certain types of people, and they'll play longer, buy more stash tabs, and come back for every league to keep eating from the trough
you want games to be satisfying not compulsive, but compulsive makes more money from mtx

>design your game to be addictive
thats always been the marker of a good game
the perfect game would kill everyone who played it

Diablo wasnt like that. You could shop for your warriors broadsword of swiftness, and you had the best item for sword, just not the best version, so you play, maybe get a kings broadsword of haste one day, and then finally, you find a kings bastardsword of haste, and you have the best sword, but probably not the best percents, so you look for a perfect one.

There were no buids, just optimal playing and optimal equipment which you could easily get lesser versions of and then try to get absolutely perfect versions of.

It was the best arpg ever made.

ARPGs in a nutshell.
You are at the mercy of the RNGesus.

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Diablo 1 was a gem and it's a shame more games didn't chase after its tight design instead of Diablo 2's sloppy one.

Yes, and take the rose out of the lenses and suddenly people remember why they no longer play D1... it's limited scope no longer captivates.

Hence, "the illusion of choice".

yeah, diablo2 ruined arpgs the way WoW ruined mmos.
fucking blizzard

>fucking blizzard
The more people realize this the better and healthier the gaming sphere as a whole becomes.

>make it simple and predatory
understandable, games cant be fun anymore. just money siphons to line shekelburg shoastein's pockets

Hillary Clinton's running mate.

At first I thought he was talking about the F1/F2 character creation system, which I agree was too complicated to dump on the player before he even starts the game. But he was talking about the dumb-down shit in F3/F4? Who the hell had a problem with those?

Kamiya.

people stopped playing d1 because it had no closed bnet to play on and they were tired of the online cheating with godly plate of the whale rings everywhere

Todd

People complaining about poe wanting you to go fast may as well complain that IRL wanting you to have as high income per unit of time as possible. Of course you want to be time-effective if you want to acquire more shit, I don't see anything wrong with that.

I'd like to see the talk before I judge.

I think he has a fair point in that for powergaming, there's no difference between min maxing in a complex system versus a simple system. It just makes the experience so trivial that choosing attributes would feel tacked on.

When did we really start to see this shift toward "the player should be able to do absolutely everything"?
Was it Fo3? I think oblivion still had classes.
Can normies really not handle being told they can't do something?

Uh, you don't get to bring friends.

oblivion had classess only as a template, as did morrowind, it was still a pure skill system but you could max everything and so the generic TES battlemage was a thing, the only real variaton was what skills you used first, you ended fully maxed.
Skyrim was actually an improvement on the TES system

he is 100% correct and the only people that will say otherwise are autists that spend 8+ hours a day playing shitrim and fagout 4

He realised most people are fucking idiots and is making thing that are appealing to them.

>people who play lots of skyrim
So uh... that's a shit ton of people. People liked skyrim.

>Skyrim was actually an improvement on the TES system
But you still become a god with max everything.

Skyrim is the target audience, you mongoloid

a million retards can't be wrong

Well yeah, but people hate that shit they much rather have real numbers.
Destiny 2 had been concealing the numbers of the stats of weapons, and after much feedback from the players in the new expansion they are finally putting actual numbers in the menus instead of just these vague bars that don't mean anything.

>putting PoE with Fallout
>just displays the most extreme shitty graphic design right after
lol?

What the fuck?
Path of exile isn't overcomplicated even though it looks like one at first glance
Modern Fallouts are incredibly simple and he seems to use 4 as an example.

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He's 100% right and I have always advocated for this type of change.

Traditional RPGs are often retarded:
>Level up and apply and get a skill point to apply
>1,000,000 skills which range from META game-breaking to literally non-functioning and useless
>"Dude, just b you'reself and have fun, bro :p"

Any system that requires me to arbitrarily dump points into arbitrary stats is retarded. PoE is a perfect example. You get this grid with a bajillion nodes despite there is no semblance of logic or balance. Okay, crit chance. It's great in some games, awful in others. How am I as a new player (let alone a genre veteran) supposed to know whether or not it's worth investing in without doing autism-level math or checking an outside guide based on autism-level math?

Likewise, any system like dark souls is retarded too:
>every time you level, you get a point
>some stats are useless and others are entirely necessary
>only real choice is picking your damage stat
>no explanation of soft caps or hard caps

If you were new to dark souls you'd have no idea how to make an effective character and you'd likely fuck yourself.

Ultimately, who was in the right/wrong here?

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That's the HC playstyle
If you play standard leagues and wish to make more obscure builds and try major conversion or synergies, the skilltree shines
In HC it's always just maxing out that health or ES

fuck marry kill in that order

You forget about what these two games in essence are about, trial and error.
You do something then learn from your misstakes and get rewarded by gaining new knowledge.

>spouse: robert
>robert
he's too much of a fruit now to make anything good

Games should be about fun, not trial and error.

>You do something then learn from your misstakes and get rewarded by gaining new knowledge.
This loop is retarded and arbitrary when you can spend 2 seconds on google and learn the META for everything. Plus you know you're being disingenuous since no one on earth plays PoE or any other ARPG like that.

The mark of a good RPG is having as undefined of a META as possible.

Fo4 is just gurps though

I wouldn't be surprised. There's a screenshot somewhere that I can't find that shows the equipment menu. I believe it shows only two slots available for armor.

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like lawbreakers? sheights?

Isn't most of Poe skill tree just stat bonuses? It was in the beta so I didn't bother playing it

well fallout 1 and 2 only had 1 slot for armor. also the first fallouts were really simple at the time. it was basically like cod of rpgs, you just point and shoot. as opposed to having different spells or combat abilities.

Imagine being such an insecure newfag you'd rather purposely mistake bait as someone being retarded just so you can fit in

>it's actually more complicated because the stats are just hidden behind another layer to make it pleb and normie friendly, so instead of one metric you have now two

Maybe people are getting dumber so he's just moving with the times.

forgot

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Oh no! The monster hit you in the face for yucky damage because your defence was OK instead of good!

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Got a chuckle out of me, not going to lie.

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>only pretending to be retarded

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PoE is overcomplicated and bad character building. You ultimately follow a very small set of paths to be even remotely viable in endgame map grinding that all focus on building up resource, so that enormous tree is just worthless because you'll never, EVER select a good 75% of the nodes on it.
fallout is hard to mark down, it doesn't give you freedom in building a character, but that freedom didn't honestly offer you too much, even back in the day besides rolls and gated requirements for stuff, which is fine as an 'out of 10' system, but out of 100 it offers you very little especially in the more barebones or diceroll combat, where it takes more than a single point to raise the roll or add to it anyway. I wish we could get a fully freeform system that rewards you for playing your character as you want but the truth is that with all that effort gone into the character building, you'd probably end up with shit for a world, which is sort of the issue we saw with the elder scrolls series. To create more in depth worlds they just ruined and normalized and casualized the mechanics for growth.

You have games that are like returns to form, new shadowrun, divinity OS, torment, but they don't hit the mark either. I think we need to develop new technologies, as opposed to trying to "go back" to good days or reinvent the wheel as it exists. We need something totally new. And unfortunately you can't just make that, you need someone to come up with some new tech.

how could someone say something like this?
does he not understand the appeal of rpgs
why does he even want to make rpgs?

You get BTFO last time. Go away.

>Hard class based systems provide the most choice
>predefined restrictions provide most choice
yeah, no

>PoE is overcomplicated and bad character building. You ultimately follow a very small set of paths to be even remotely viable in endgame map grinding that all focus on building up resource, so that enormous tree is just worthless because you'll never, EVER select a good 75% of the nodes on it.
There's a hundred endgame viable archetypes. The portion of extremely unpopular and underpowered nodes is more in the 20% range and varies from patch to patch. Because the cascading of minmaxed character power you simply cannot aim towards making every frankenstein build work because then the minmaxed builds would be absurdly overpowered. The proof is however in the pudding. The PoE skill tree works because thousands of PoE players not only think it works but is a fundamental aspect of the game regardless of what a guy who has not shipped good RPG systems since the 1990s claims in a keynote.

all this really is is the decline of our culture
the decrease in literacy
less numbers and letters more pictures

18:05 - 18:15

youtube.com/watch?v=uha7WWgoeX4

People LIKE a little complexity. Why don't devs know this by now?