Do you think it was SEGA or Sakurai's decision to not include either of them as playable characters?

Not even bait. Look at the characters added. Almost all are still relevant. Sonic hasn't had a good game in forever. Apart from some outliers like Banjoo, who fans have been asking for since the very first game so it doesn't really count.

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>Relevant shit gets in first.
>Banjo
Real answer, no one asked for either of them. Shadowfags just think many people seriously demanded Shadow meanwhile Daisy and Dark Samus got in before him.

Based. It doesn't feel Ultimate without one of the best video game villains of all time.

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That fact that Dark Samus got in is just bullshit, she was an assist trophy in Smash 4, nobody voted for them since they thought the ballot was for Smash 4

>Sonic hasn't had a good game in forever.
Cool opinion bro.
>inb4 no it isn'-
>Got Studiopolis music in from a game not made by SEGA, by non easterns, from a "bad game"
Cope.

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Sega probably doesn't want to downplay the differences between their characters just for the sake of roster filler. They're very picky about how characters they own are depicted.

>nobody voted for them since they thought the ballot was for Smash 4
Implying when that did jack shit to stop Ridleyfags. Either people gave up with Ridley and voted for Dark Samus, or kept Ridleyfagging and voted for him regardless
Guess who got in and who didn't?

How would a shadow echo even work?

Faster walk speed, slower run speed? Chaos control up B?

Tails is 100% fucking in the next DLC announcement

You lads heard it here first

Don't tell nintendo

Who wants furfaggot Sonic palette swaps? If poopy cowabunga needs a new character for some reason, it should be Robotnik.

That's retarded. why would you do that?

Same way Peach and Daisy work. They are meant to be near identicals in the first place which makes Shadow exclusion even more questionable.

This. Robotnik > Ow the Edge deviantart autism

What's retarded? The fact people gave up on Ridley when Sakurai himself said "he was too big" and picked D Samus? Or vice versa? People just wanted more Metriod representation, and if Ridley just wasn't what Sakurai wanted to make playable, you either had D Samus or some shit pick like Adam/Sulux. People knew even if they didn't get in as DLC for Tr4sh, it would likely be used for Ultimate's roster, which it was.

Japan hates Eggman, he's never getting in

Fuck that. Why do so many people want Shadow over Eggman? Can't have Sonic in Smash without his iconic arch nemesis.

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A Sonic character was never on the table in the first place. Why the hell do retards think that Shadow ever had a chance in the first place? Nothing was pointing towards his inclusion

can shadow use a gun now that Joker uses one?

>Japan hates Eggman, he's never getting in
So? They hate Ridley yet here we are. The west had many picks for Smash newcomers, at least this one is another easterner character if Banjo was too much for them.

Japs like Banjo. Retard.

This, he's one of the most iconic villains in vidya. I wouldn't even care if he stole some moves from Bowser Jr. (Speaking of which, why did nobody think of making an Eggman mod for him in the Sm4sh days?)

Not as much as their eastern characters like DQ. Eggman is not getting stopped by the nips hateboner, that's retarded.

> Popular and liked by many
> Wasn't shown until November
> Easy Echo of Sonic
Think retard

I don't even think Japan is Nintendo's or many other Japanese developer's target audience anymore.

>(Speaking of which, why did nobody think of making an Eggman mod for him in the Sm4sh days?)
There was one that was a Ganondorf model swap.

Sonic in general is not really that popular in japan

>The king of gaming, founded in Japan, is no longer the interest in Japan
Sad. What is Nips problem?

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Considering Sega's track record of being retarded, i wouldn't be surprised if they didn't allowed Sakurai to add a Sonic echo fighter

I’m still kinda mad about this. I was like 99% sure he was confirmed after Richter.

That's not a fair comparison, since DQ is another level. Still, Banjo created more waves in Japan than a lot of the other newcomers. Retard.

Just change his run animation to skating

You're supposed to hate the villain retard, otherwise it's not as fun to play as the hero.

When you say you hate villain you are only recognizing their greatness.

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>no no no, Shadow is very different from Sonic, he could not do the same moves... we don't care if Capcom is OK with Ken and Ryu, Shadow is VERY different
>also remember Sonic must ALWAYS be a shade of blue, we don't care if it means his palettes are bad
100% chance that's how it went down

They probably could have done it with characters like shadow and Skull Kid to gauge people’s reactions and interest.

>Japan hates Eggman
Japan doesn't care about the franchise in general.

And none of those things worked out in Shadow's favor. I guess he never really had a chance. lmao

Sakurai is a dickhead.
I'm serious. Why the FUCK would you put Knuckles in the game as an assist, show him early, thereby tricking us into thinking perhaps Shadow is playable, only to say "NOPE LOL" at the last second?
There is no way he didn't know what he was doing there.

Hackurai can drink a diarrhea milkshake.

Stop crying and play their gacha.

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Here's how it really went down
>Hey Sega, can I make Shadow an assist trophy again?
>Yes
>Thanks
Anything else is bullshit.

Zoomerfaggot

That's not Sakurai's fault. It's the retarded fans jumping to conclusions.

Shadow is a terrible character.

Sega is clearly a little weird about Sonic, not as weird as SE has been with FF but
>Sonic has some of the most boring alt colors in the game, likely because Sega is paranoid over fan characters
>only one Sonic remix across three games despite multiple famous Sega and ex-Sega composers contributing remixes for other series in Smash

Why did Sakurai then cut a bunch of first-party assist trophies?

Shadow is from gen z. Are you retarded?

I dont comprehend how people can dislike Shadow.

He'd be a cool and inoffensive echo. Plus his design is quite contrasting to his base character.

Best taste incoming

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If Sakurai had good taste, he'd put in the second most important playable character instead.

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How is getting permission for a returning 3rd part assist trophy related to cutting 1st party trophies?

>shadowfag calling anyone else a zoomer

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Technically, Shadow is Gen Z, because he was born in the 2000s. However, when people talk about Zoomer culture, they mostly refer to the soulless shitfest that began in 2007. Shadow is a soulful character, and is thus boomer.

Did your favorite youtube celebrity too you that, champ?

>He'd be a cool and inoffensive echo
Then why isn't he in?

Since when is Dreamcast zoomer shit? Fuck Snoy retards. PS2 was a mistake

>However, when people talk about Zoomer culture, they mostly refer to the soulless shitfest that began in 2007.
Nah, fuck that. Shadow is baby's first edgy character and was made for gen z kids. Get that shit out if my face and bring me older Sonic characters.

Because they realized Metal Sonic was a better choice.

For reasons I do not know user.

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Because it literally makes no sense, why the fuck would you cut 1st party trophies when you own the characters? Seems like a huge waste

Because Sonic Adventure 2 came out in 2001, which is the second year Zoomers were born in.
However, 2000-2006 were still boomer years in terms of culture, so I count Shadow as boomer.

The fact that Sega refuses to fund and release a legitimately good Sonic game often should be clear enough proof they do not care for Sonic nor would be this anal about his involvement in a game bigger than his own series.

Dreamcast was released around the time when the first gen z kids were starting to get into video games.

>Since when is Dreamcast zoomer shit?
Most fans of the character were introduced to SA2 on the gamecube.

Are you seriously asking why things that take resources to develop would get cut in favor of different resources? Development ain't free. You have to sacrifice something for new content.

Eggman is way edgier in SA2 than Shadow.

Shadow is literally Jesus, he dies for Earth and knows Maria (Mary).

>GET A LOAD OF THIS

That's their fucking problem

Millienals is '95 while zoomers should be 2005+. For some reason I don't here anyone come up with proper terms for '15 kids yet but if my mother is right about millienals, then zoomers should be '05 and whatever is from '15 to now is (post zoomers?) would be what zoomers should be hating like the boomers hated what the zoomers like. Zoomers grew up on Shadow, Boomers on the likes of Sonic, Knuckles and Metal as for the "cool" characters.

>Shadow is literally Jesus, he dies for Earth and knows Maria (Mary).
You're not doing Shadow any favors with that description.

>Introduce the concept of echos
>Put a character literally no one ever wanted (Daisy) which is similar to Peach
>...
>Don't put Shadow
I don't even like the ow the edge but this will never not be strange to me.
Something must have happened for the little edgy to not be included.

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What is a gacha?

Kill yourself shill, i'm very sad that Saki and Infantry and Tanks got cut, there was NO reasons for this, is was their biggest exposure they ever had in Smash.

BUT NOOOOO! Gotta add 2 Fire Emblem assist trophies right? Seriously, what the fuck is going on behind the scenes? Do they really hate Wars this much?

>Millienals is '95 while zoomers should be 2005+.
Zoomers are people that weren't old enough to know how the world was like before 9/11. I will not consider you to be a millenial if you were born in '95.

No. Zoomers are 2000+. Millennials are 85-94. 95-99 is 50% boomer/50% Zoomer.
Boomer remains uncapitalized because it is simply a meme.

It's what Sonic says when he grabs Tails' butt.

No one has yet been able to accurately slot me as a '96 and I don't really understand why

Jesus would you faggots shut the fuck up with this zoomer boomer shit.

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>Put a character literally no one ever wanted (Daisy)
Speak for yourself, I wanted Daisy since Brawl and prefer her over that boring mat of a bitch.

I think it was gonna be Knuckles but they fucked up

And the sad part is, it’s likely that we will never know why.

Daisy got in because memoryman spammed the ballot so hard.

>Two unpopular assist trophies got cut in favor of two popular characters
What's the problem with this? And how is this related to Shadow?

>nobody voted for them since they thought the ballot was for Smash 4
By Smash 4 everyone had given up on Ridley ever happening, so they started rallying behind other Metroid characters like Dark Samus. She was absolutely requested.

> Unironically talking about boomer/zoomer about a fucking video game character
The boomzoom meme itself is outdone as this point, and to make a point about it of a video game character of all things is pathetic.

If you were born in 96, you have a chance to redeem yourself.
Do you like Nintendo 64, The Beatles, and Star Wars, or do you like Fortnite, Miley Cyrus, and Avengers Infinity War?

It's the curse of a sonic thread
it devolves to boomzoom spew
Fuck the guy who forced that meme

Daisy is more popular than Shadow. Are you fucking retarded? Daisy will always remain more popular than Shadow as long as she appears in sports games and Mario Kart.

Knuckles could and deserves but probably wouldn't have a completely unique moveset. Dude is much, much slower than sonic and much, much stronger.

Shut up dumb goomer

Imagine being such a huge dickwad you dislike things you mentally categorize as "boomer/zoomer/doomer/cooner".
Christ this site, AND BOARD ESPECIALLY, gets more retarded with each year.

LOL

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> He says this when shitters like Devil, Prince of Sable and Sherifff are still in
Wars is the reason why Fire Emblem even is a thing retard, do some research

We know why Shadow wasn't included. It's because he wasn't highly demanded and other characters like Daisy, Chrom and Dark Samus had a more notable presence in the ballot.

Advanced Wars is shit. Anti-FE fags like to hype up this franchise as being better than FE in every way. Just got done with DS and the whole game is literally just “Wait until your Tag Attack meter is full and win the mission”. And then the story is even worse than the average FE game.

CodeName Steam was way better.

I was born in 98 and out of those you mentioned I only like the N64

that guy must of been so happy when it was shown

64's cool, pre mouse star wars was cool prequels made for excellent games
Miley Cyrus is still relevant?

Those are better than the shitty assist trophies that got cut. What's the problem? They even brought back Isaac to make some retards happy.

Well, I mean.... that's the whole point of this thread to discuss this very question

So I take it you don't like the Zoomer things?
I will have to think about this before you are judged.

>a character literally no one ever wanted
This isn't true for any character, ever made, in any medium. Pick a character at random, someone, somewhere, vouches for them being in Smash.

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/17/where-millennials-end-and-generation-z-begins/

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Shadow fucking sucks dude. Along with Sonic's other friends. They're boring, bland, and add basically nothing.

> Infinity War
You do know it's based on the comics right?

Intelligent Systems can't insert social links and waifus in Wars. I'm serious, that interview literally confirmed they killed it because they couldn't Awakening-ize it.

This was before they started doing the Echo shit.
NO ONE believed Shadow had a chance. Then we see Richter and Ken, suddeny Shadow makes sense.

Shadow is not the echo we (technically) wanted, but needed.

>Shadow Fags

Literally and unironically THE worst Anti-character in any video game.

Wario, Dark Samus, even Dark Pit, these are how you do anti counterparts. Fuck Shadow, and fuck modern Sonic in general.

>cooner
What the fuck is a cooner?

Foh with that meme image. Pewdiepie Research Center thinks that 22 year olds are Zoomers. They are not a reliable source.

BAIT, Devil is atrocious

There is no concrete definition for gen z or millennials. I can pull out a few different sources each having a different year.

That kind of helps as an official reference but I still feel like there needs to be something between Mil and Z

They are.

Wars literally already has Waifus and Days of Ruin was practically already a Fire Emblem game. They probably just don’t feel like making another.

>Grinch leak
>Isaac and Shadowfags finally get what they've wanted for so long
>the direct hits
>the trailer shows Ken, Grinch leak could be real!
>...and then Incineroar, dashing dreams
>on top of that, in the last piece of Smash information we're going to get before release, we also see Isaac and Shadow confirmed as assist trophies
months and months and MONTHS of holding out hope, only to be BTFO at the end
it was my favorite part of the whole thing

why do you faggots like Shadow so much

Funny, but you'd think that Eggman in his Eggmobile would've been more obvious to some people.

>that 30y/o groomer who showers daily

> Mfw wrote that Zoomerfaggot post that started this whole zoomer/boomer thing on the thread
At least it reach 500 posts

>Then we see Richter and Ken, suddeny Shadow makes sense.
Retard. Shadow has nothing on Richter or Ken. The fact you retards tried to bandwagon on either of them just shows that your character never really had a chance.

black zoomer

>Shadow model already in game
>Not a alternate skin for sonic
How does this make any fucking sense?

Also
>Zero is an assist
>motherfucker has 4 moves already
>not select able
SAKURAI!!!

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Shadow is more popular than both, nobody knew who the fuck "Richard" was

It just gets worse

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I'm glad Shadowfags got blown the fuck out. There was never any reason to believe he had a chance but people thought he was guaranteed.

That was likely harder to mod in for 4 because all people could do was skin swaps mostly.

No they're not.

You're a fucking retard. Obviously he means the japs just don't like the character. Do you not know how to separate reality from fantasy?

Got a source on that? I’m pretty sure I saw a lot of votes for Shadow and Dark Samus but don’t remember seeing many for Chrom or Daisy

I can't find that interview, but I remember them saying they couldn't find a way to put in elements from the modern Fire Emblem games so they axed it. Keep in mind that Fire Emblem today isn't the same as Fire Emblem then. Days of Ruin was made by an entirely different team.

>Oh no, they didn't add the poster boy of this franchise's downfall as a playable character
Knuckles would've been cool though.

Miley Cyrus, Capeshit, and Fortnite?.. fuck no

I imagine Ganondorf simply had a compatible skeleton size for Eggman's model

>Shadow is a soulful character, and is thus boomer.

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I mean, Shadow Dragon is still the worst FE game to date either way.

Shadow not being in the game completely ruined it for me. I can't believe he wasn't actually included in this game. He's the perfect choice for an echo and they just gloss over him. Why did CHROM get in before Shadow? Did we really need another FE character so badly that they had to reduce Shadow to an assist just to make room?

>Daisy
>Ken
>Chrom
>Lucina
>Dark Pit
>Dark Samus

None of these characters are nearly as important to their respective series as Shadow is to his. They aren't even as popular.

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Then you are not a Zoomer.
You were born in the late 90s but have good taste (based on your response). Be proud of yourself. Half of the people born in that time are cancer.

>He's the perfect choice for an echo
That would be Metal.

Capeshit has existed for centuries, it appeals to everyone. Stan Lee is the Miyamoto of Comic books

>Nintendo character
>The original echo fighter
>Nintendo character
>Nintendo character
>Nintendo character
>Nintendo character
Hmm

>None of these characters are nearly as important to their respective series as Shadow is to his
Dude, shut up. Shadow is popular, but he is NOT important, hardly. I don't say this and I don't like to say this, but it's gonna be said; stop being a little bitch and deal with it. Yes, Chrom is a shit choice, but you are deluding yourself if you think Shadow is that important to Sonic. The recent title with the most acclaim didn't even have him, what does that tell you? You should be pushing for Metal Sonic or even Tails before you go for Shadow.

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Chrom was stated to be demanded by Japan in the same article that stated Dark Samus was demanded by America. I don't need a source to prove how popular Daisy is. She can get by on her Mario Kart appearances alone.

But Richter is stated to be from the ballot. Same as Belmont. Castlevania was popular enough for a character an Echo Fighter and it was obvious that Richter is the second most notable Belmont after Simon. Ken is more popular than Shadow.

But there is a difference between soulful capeshit (DC and Marvel comics of the 20th century, 1978 Superman movie, The Dark Knight, Raimi Spider-Man movies), and soulless capeshit (MCU).
>inb4 "what is soul"
Soul cannot be described. It is something you can only feel.

>Shadow is more popular than Ken

>Right There, Ride On remix from Brawl was left out
For what purpose?

>ZOOMER
>BOOMER
These all sounds like shit toddlers would say. Why would say this shit unironically, let alone want be labeled as such?

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You don't understand! Shadow is the most popular video game character!

A NIGGER

I would argue so. I didn’t know who Ken was before Smash but I’ll admit I have never played a Street Fighter game

That argument doesnt work on Dark Samus since she was only important in ONE game.

Time to bow down to the beaner dick amigo.

>I didn’t know who Ken was before Smash but I’ll admit I have never played a Street Fighter game
How old are you? Pretty much everyone knows the most basic Street Fighter characters. It's amazing how well known Street Fighter is.

I thought i was remembering wrong when i scrolled through the song list,
fuck it really was there back then.

>That argument doesnt work on Dark Samus
But the conversation wasn't about Dark Samus?

>I didn’t know who Ken was before Smash

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Shadow is a 1:1 clone in his debut, so I would say he would be more fitting than metal.

>Shadow is more popular because I am ignorant of videogame franchises that do not contain "Sonic" in the title

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>1:1 clone
That's literally the entire point of Metal Sonic, you dongus.

But Shadow's the one that plays exactly like Sonic in his debut game.

how would you feel for a echo fighters pass?

So?

why not both?

I think it's impossible. The only way we're getting more Echo Fighters is if Sakurai has free time while working on the Fighters Pass.

>sonicfags

THE HEDGEHOG'S RIGHT OUTSIDE MY WINDOW!

wrong image, if anything zoomers love garbage like shadow

I honestly don't know if one will happen. The whole purpose of echo fighters was to fill in the BASE roster with characters that take very little development time.

fuck furries

>Sonic not popular in Japan
More of this misconception bullshit. Sonic is still regarded as a big icon in Japan, his games just sell better overall overseas.

I’m 21. Literally the only character I knew from that series was Ryu and that’s because Smash 4. I grew up playing Mortal Kombat and Smash and didn’t really pay attention to other fighting games

But metal actually has a different moveset, despite him being a sonic mimic

There are characters in smash who have never had a good game, namely the fire emblem characters and shulk

You can't deny that purposefully avoiding showing Shadow and Skull Kid, two highly requested characters, and instead showing Knuckles and The Moon as ATs that seemingly replaced them, and then not revealing them as ATs until the very last minute was a dick move. Yes fans jumped to conclusions but Sakurai is very much in tune with what people want and how people speculate so he had to have had some kind of idea as to the effect seemingly "replacing" those ATs would have on people. Other popular characters like Shovel Knight and Bomberman didn't beat around the bush like that and were deconfirmed as ATs from the beginning.

It would have to be cheaper or include twice as many fighters. I want more of them, but I admit they'd have to go about them right. A plan I had was to add an echo fighter with each fighter from the pass, be they related to the character or not.

Like what? The only times we've seen or played as him he's just been a Sonic clone, except he doesn't run but floats. But even disregarding that, his whole concept as a character is that he's a robot counterpart of Sonic.

or you know, that's just fan assumptions

also the only place I've seen those two being requested is the west

shadow deserves unique moveset

>or you know, that's just fan assumptions
Read the whole post next time.
>Yes fans jumped to conclusions but Sakurai is very much in tune with what people want and how people speculate so he had to have had some kind of idea as to the effect seemingly "replacing" those ATs would have on people.
He has an objective metric of what people want thanks to the fighter ballot which is why we got so many requested characters this time like K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo. He had to have an idea that those characters were requested but the reason why he didn't deconfirm them outright like Shovel Knight and Bomberman is highly suspicious.

It's still correct, but how you word it is more accurate. They just like him as SEGA's mascot, they don't really care about his games at all.

I wish.

>suspicious
absolute retard

Not an argument.

which again, is assumptions

who's to say they actually aren't big hitters

The games are still doing fine there as far as I know, though, just not "as" good as in the west.

you're the one calling it suspicious lmao

Then it still makes no sense to introduce other ATs that fulfill the exact same roles (Knuckles and The Moon). Moreso in Skull Kid's case where making the Moon fall is the entire point of him in Majora's Mask so separating him from that is just weird.

Knuckles and the moon don't have the same exact roles as Shadow and Skull Kid. Did you even play the game, retard?

play the game you retard

Roles as in representation. Knuckles and Shadow are both Sonic ATs and Skull Kid and The Moon are both MM ATs. When you show Knuckles and The Moon over Shadow and Skull Kid it can make people think they were replaced because they're fulfilling the same representation. In The Moon's case you're removing an integral part of Skull Kid's repertoire which makes it seem unlikely that he's also an AT, because what would he do without The Moon? As a result of that removal having Skull Kid also in the game means he has to do a bunch of made up shit unrelated to the game like flipping the stage upside down. It just doesn't make sense.

>Roles as in representation.
Is there some hidden limit on how many assist trophies a 3rd party series or a game can have? Tell me more.

>Shadow especially hurts, why the fuck would you wait for the last direct to show him?
I didnt want him but I can see how people would be annoyed with showing off knuckles as an AT giving how to shadowfags.

the true bait appears

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That's fucking sad. Have you been living under a rock or something? Do you know what a hadouken is?

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You're massively missing the point. Showing one over the other implies that something's going on with the other. This isn't about slots.

>Showing one over the other implies that something's going on with the other.
How?

metal sonic would animate differently

You mean like Dark Samus?

i hate this so fucking much

Yes, I was actually going to say that. However if we're trying to get the lowest effort echo (which is what I read when I see 'perfect'), that would exclude animation changes

>sonic is terribly designed
this is absolutely false. sonic has basically survived this entire time on his design alone. why do you think sonic has the most OC out of anything without using the word 'autism'? do you see people giving other shitty game series the time of day? even as far back as almost 2 decades ago sonic OCs were trendy

It's untrue. Early 80s and late 90s are buffer zones.
Early 80s is 50/50 X/Millennial, and late 90s is 50/50 boomer/Zoomer.

no it's because it's mindless wojak garbage

Sonic was designed to appeal to westerners, and in that regard the series is overwhelmingly successful.

>Gen Z kid keeps pushing Wojak shit
how embarrassing

Shadow would also require new animation, since he'd have to skate instead of run.

A better question is how they STILL haven't redesigned Sonic's side b. Just make him toss a ring and optionally chase it jeez.

>Creator is aware of highly requested characters due to an objective measure (the ballot)
>Creator (who insists on being in charge of trailers himself) avoids showing two highly requested characters, instead showing two new ATs that fulfill the same representation, while also deconfirming other highly requested characters at the same time
>This sends the message that the two characters have either been replaced or have something else going on with them (such as being playable), even if this wasn't intentional this is the biggest assumption that will be made by fans
>Sakurai is also aware of how people speculate about playable characters so he had to have some idea of the impact deconfirming everyone else BUT them until the very last minute would have
It's not that hard to understand. Yes fans did jump to conclusions but I'm certain Sakurai knew both were highly requested characters because of the objective measure he had. He did the same with Ridley in Smash 4, where he purposefully avoided showing him off, only showing vague hints to his presence and his shadow until the last minute.

Who says Skull Kid and Shadow were highly requested?

>sonic is terribly designed
He's just a blue Felix the Cat.

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user, certain games have more than one AT, you're jumping assumptions

They look nothing alike.

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This. Any fan who still has somehow stuck around for this long knows how anal (and generally retarded) SEGA has gotten over Sonic's image, especially after '06 and Penders.

>they actually split the IP in half instead of improving Modern Sonic for whatever reason

Sega, if Shadow was in he'd bring attention to fans wanting SA3. Can't have that around with our new established order of Sonic, Tails, Eggman, the Wisps, and new villain who's one and done.

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>they actually split the IP in half instead of improving Modern Sonic for whatever reason
how the fuck did they do that?

>They look nothing alike.
Do zoomers lack "subtlety" and "similarity"? Why do they think in binary; if y isn't x, then y can't look like x.

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>They look nothing alike.

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>how the fuck did they do that?
Mania is a Classic branch of Sonic games going forward, while Modern Sonic is his own timeline.

What do Zoomers have to do with anything? Why are you talking in non-sequiturs?
You should probably buy some more ADHD medication.

Modern and Classic are now entirely different properties as of Mania, which means none of their elements/characters/etc. can interact anymore. They quietly revealed it after the rebooted comic staff were basically forced into admitting it, and after claiming how "light" the mandates would be funny enough.

My guess is they're still too afraid to dump the safe boost2win train and help the series, but also actually acknowledge that Classic's gameplay is what people want back, so they pulled this compromise.

>What do Zoomers have to do with anything?
Only zoomers would think Felix the Cat isn't an inspiration the designers of Sonic used as a base.

Shadow was the 24th most requested character in Japan based on Sourcegaming's research, at the time of the ballot.
sourcegaming.info/2015/09/13/japantopdlcpt2/

Skull Kid was the 31st most requested character on their own polls that they ran, at the time of the ballot.
sourcegaming.info/2015/10/08/sgpollingresults1/

I realize that both of these are not objective sources but there's no way of knowing the actual results of the ballot because that information is not public. However, this should give you an idea of a qualitative metric of their popularity. Shadow beats out any other Sonic character. This is also the reason why he got his own game, Sega held a poll in Japan regarding which character should get a spinoff and Shadow won by a landslide.

Are all of you idiots illiterate?

>Trusting sourcegaming
yep
I'm out

>they actually split the IP in half instead of improving Modern Sonic for whatever reason
I'll never understand why some people act like this is some kind of sin. Other big franchises utilize multiple iterations of the same character for different demographics as well. Hell, even Mario does it with Paper Mario.

Zoomers wouldn't even know who Felix the Cat is.

>I realize that both of these are not objective sources but there's no way of knowing the actual results of the ballot because that information is not public.
If you have a better source I'd love to hear it.

The weird part is the the IDW staff didn't even know about this until they were well into writing the comic.
Flynn sneaked a reference to Nack, Bark and Bean into the comics, which he later had to backtrack because he couldn't use them.

Because in Sonic's case, it's basically a death sentence for the Modern brand. Instead of trying to fix your utterly busted series, you let the ship sink and put all the good points in the new branch. Double so now that as of LW/Forces the series is sub-AA in priority.

Honestly as a Classicfag I should be happy, I far preferred it over the Adventure-onwards direction (the real pain for me is seeing Archie get fucked). But it's kinda funny seeing SEGA basically admit defeat through actions alone.

It's only sin because Adventurefags are left in the dirt. Classic gets massive praise with Mania, Unleashed, Colors and Generations are all regarded as the best the boost era ever was for Modern's image, while SA1/2fags get shit on by social media thanks to 06 ruining their image.

This is the smartest move SEGA has done ever when compared most of the good ideas came from SOA over SOJ, but the only problem is that they still can't make good games on other own anymore with all the soul being gone from Sonic Team.

>it's basically a death sentence for the Modern brand
How so? There's nothing keeping Sonic Team from making a good game that doesn't need to rely on nostalgia as a crutch.

The series has been mediocre ever since they went full-racetrack with SA1, and with boost2win they've only been mediocre at best since then. With classic now, and having paying attention to the series' direction, they're never going to truly make 3D Sonic work now, at least not in the mainline series.

>With classic now, and having paying attention to the series' direction, they're never going to truly make 3D Sonic work now, at least not in the mainline series.
I'm not seeing what the IP split has to do with any of this. If they could never get 3D Sonic working in the past, what makes you think that they were ever going to get it working in the future, split or no split?

All they've really done is is realized that classic Sonic appeals more to older demographics, so for for marketing/merchandising reasons they've made it into a clearly defined subfranchise.

I've come to make an announcement.Post-Grinch Shadowfags are the fucking worst. You’re a bunch conspiracy theorist crybabies who think big bad Sakurai wants nothing more than to make you suffer just because he didn’t make your edgy recolor playable. So fucking what? It’s not he’s going to stop appearing in games because this. The Sonic franchise is still ongoing with no end in site and Shadow still one of its most popular characters. I’m at least a little sympathetic to guys like Isaacfags or RAYfags since at least some of them just want some life breathed back into their long dead IPs. Shadow, on the other hand, has absolutely nothing to gain or lose by not being in, yet you guys are STILL throwing tantrums over half a year later. “B-but Shadow being a Sonic echo is a no-brainer!” If I had nickel for every time a Smashfag said that their favorite character being in was just common sense, I be rich enough to buy this shitty site from gookmoot. Shadow’s not in, he will never be playable in Ultimate and no amount of crying or complaining will ever change that fact. Accept it, move on, and hope for better luck next time.

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>. If they could never get 3D Sonic working in the past, what makes you think that they were ever going to get it working in the future, split or no split?
The fact that all of the rest of current Sonic Team is 100% dead? How most of them have fucked off to Yakuza shit and the new team is being developed in the states called the "Sonic Pillar Team"? Every fan proves 3D Sonic classic styled is possible, they just need a actual team and budget to build something into a solid entity instead of tech demo shit.

The original team couldn't make Sonic work in 3D, it was just too early to make it work. But then they got stuck with what they shit together, scripting cheats like automation and speedpads everywhere, and couldn't drop it in fear they were going to make things worst (when it was just getting worse regardless).

This

>why do you think sonic has the most OC out of anything
autism

>objective

their only objective shit are the article translations

>The fact that all of the rest of current Sonic Team is 100% dead?
I think you misred my post, since that's pretty much what I was saying. Adventure-era 3D Sonic didn't work that great (for several reason, both due to technology limitations and bad design), and modern 3D Sonic "works" I guess, but it's incredibly shallow due to the modern devs being more focused on spectacle and "going fast" above everything else. Sega making classic Sonic into a subfranchise doesn't change or influence this at all.

The whole point is that modern Sonic being shit has nothing to do with a defined IP split between it and classic Sonic. The only difference there is the devs behind each project, and if one side appears more "doomed" than the other then it's simply because that side is relying on shitty devs. That's it.

Holy shit this entire board is illiterate.

>Sega making classic Sonic into a subfranchise doesn't change or influence this at all.
It actually does. Or really, can. The fact of the matter is; there's a clear divide of people that grew up in the 90s, and deep down, don't want Modern Sonic. They wanted that crafted era of the 90s to come back and be respected. Does Mania remotely look like a game that would fit in with Adventure Sonic tone or feel like Adventure era Sonic at all? It's not edgy enough to be, it's not realistic enough to be, but that's why it's for the 90s fans, what they wanted. You can't even get this in Advance era really after SAdv2 happened. Same applies to modernfags, they don't care about pre Adventure content, so why shove that down their throughts? They want SA3, they want Adventure to come back, not "classic gameplay", ADVENTURE era gameplay. This is why the devide is needed, this fanbase WON'T Let Sonic die, no matter which era it is. The best thing to do is get the best to handle the eras people want Sonic to be, and just make it happen. That's the only answer that's going to be reality, it's not about any other opinion, THIS movement SEGA"s pushing IS happening for real. The only thing uncertain is; will they actually save themselves from total damnation?

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>sonic is terribly designed

His design is literally the only thing that kept him relevant for fucking 3 decades. Practically no other fictional mascot in all of existence could've survived so many bombs as he has.

>It actually does. Or really, can.
I'm sure the only change/influence this split creates is going to be the existence of classic-focused games in the future, like a Mania follow up. I don't really see modern Sonic changing much at all. It's not like Mania's presence kept classic stuff like Green Hill, Chemical Plant, or classic Sonic himself from being in Forces. It's not like the split kept other classic era stuff like Sandopolis from being in being in the recent, modern-focused racing game. Modern Sonic will continue to be a non-focused testing ground of different 3D gameplay styles, and classic Sonic will continue to be S3K.

Honestly I'd rather they fix up sonic himself first before adding another playable sonic character

SHADOW IS FUCKING GAY
METAL SONIC OR FUCK OFF, MEATBAGS

I love the bait meme and all the art it's inspired.

I actually agree with what you say but I also think the Sonic sub-fanbases will always cross over if the game is just good. But really that's just based on Mania being arguably the best Sonic in two decades.

Zoomers should be put in camps

Look at how autistic Sega is about Sonic's alt colors. Of course they're going to have only him as the playable rep. Plus Shadow's too different from him to be an Echo.
>but in Adventure 2 he was exac-
He used Chaos Spear in the second battle aboard the ARK. And Chaos powers are his signature. And we already have one Echo Fighter who has everything unique stripped from her to be a glorified alt skin, why do you want to subject Shadow to that?

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>rebrand clones as "echo fighters"
>don't even sell them as DLC for a few bucks a pop
>DO sell DLC Mii costumes, which people largely don't give a shit about
I might be a shadowfag, but his ship has passed. Why the fuck aren't we seeing more echoes? It'd be a pathetically easy way to pad up the roster even more. Fan picks like Dixie or Medusa, even.

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Eggman would work much better as a Classic Mode boss, in either the Death Egg Robot or the Egg Viper.

chaos spears, chaos control up b, burn damage on kicks, specials where he uses a gun. He'd be more like a ken tier echo or a semiclone than just a reskin.

>why do you faggots like Shadow so much
He's cool and it'd be nice to have sonic but with actual different specials, since sakurai is too proud to ever rework the abortion movesets like sonic and ganondorf.

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Metal fucking flies 10 feet off the ground and doesn't even spindash, he's way too different to be an echo.

When are we getting mods to overlay these models onto Sonic?

>kept him relevant
hmm
but that's not right

Faggots who spout "muh edge" "muh cringe" are delicate baby men who own atleast $100 worth of Game Grumps merch. Goofy edgy shit is fun and Shadow was a legitimately neat character who's earned his popularity.

That being said Eggman is the best possible sonic newcomer

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All of this is so bad holy shit

hi you pathetic zoomer

Shadow has always been a shit character. Since when did Yea Forums start liking him? Everyone always called him garbage.

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They probably had leftover files for Chrom from Smash 4. His model is right there with Robin, we KNOW he was almost in Smash 4. He just needed a little more work done.

Glad to see these Eggchads here. Can't get more OG than him.

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All posters now are zoomers.

Shadow has had a lot better characterization as of late from the games and comics that made people like him again. Also Yea Forums had a short lived meme with surfer Shadow that added to his likeability.

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why do you retards always come when people are talking about echoes?
are you still under the impression that echoes take as much time and effort as full characters.

He's the coolest

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not going to happen
you aren't going to get a 2nd character from a 3rd party series unless they're an echo

...

I know obviously but he has a shot next time around, nonetheless.

duck hunt dog

>Relevant
>More Fire Emblem

Based

because since echoes were introduced as a concept people wanted to see what other echoes we could get considering they're low effort characters to create
we instead got only a few instead of a lot

other than Shadow
i would have liked to see Big Boss for Snake
Dixie for Diddy
even Louie for Olimar

but as it ended up it seems to be that Echoes were more to shut up people complaining about Lucina

no he doesn't

>Last 2 mainline games sold over 2 million each
>Fire Emblem Heroes has 14.1 million downloads and grossed over $500 million
It's not irrelevant just because you don't like it.

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Y'know if you're gonna respond to a post I made four hours ago, you could at least prove me wrong.

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Shadow would be great for Smash but he is not that important so I can see why he is not in.

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>Shadow has had a lot better characterization as of late from the games and comics

Games:
>jobs to Infinite
>instead of breaking Sonic out of prison, he fucks off for six months because he believes there is no point in trying to stop Infinite
>completely goes against his characterization at the end of '06 and the promise he made to Maria
>TSR has him simply as a guy who just wants to butt heads with Sonic

Comics:
>same thing, just wants to butt heads with Sonic and prove he's superior instead of doing his own thing

I love Shadow, but please, PLEASE dont imply they've done his character well for the past few years. Once Maekawa left, Shadow's character shit the bed. It doesn't help that his VA doesn't even sound like Shadow, it sounds like someone jokingly doing a Shadow impression.

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TO THE PRESSURE

kek

I'd rather classic Robotnik myself. Either already in a mech or using them for attacks

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If there's a Wave 2 of DLC, one of them needs to be an Echo Fighter pack.

Birdo
Garchomp
Lord Fredrik
Black Shadow
Ninten
Mega Man X
Big Boss

Garchomp would not fucking work over Charizard. Neither would X over Mega Man
You DO know that one of the specific criteria Sakurai laid out for an echo fighter is that they have to have similar proportions right?

>"People wonder why Ken is an Echo Fighter when he has so many differences from Ryu? The answer is Echo Fighters are whatever I want them to be"

>gachashit
yawn

>Shadow especially hurts
>would take DARK SONIC over any fully original character

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>Why do so many people want Shadow over Eggman?
Because of tasteless fucking plebs. I like SA2 as much as the next guy, but fuck shadowfags.

they need to have minor differences, not major differences

at least bother to pay attention to that before just saying WELL THIS AND THIS COULD BE AN ECHO. you might as well just assume new characters all together

X and Megaman are far to different for them to be echoes

>I didn’t know who Ken was before Smash
We share a board with people like this.

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>Why do so many people want Shadow over Eggman?
because echoes are more possible than a full character for a 2nd character for a 3rd party series
pay attention retard

and people wonder why the FGC hates Smashtards
why do you faggots even want to be in EVO if you don't even know who Ken is

>they need to have minor differences, not major differences
Have you seen the list of Ken's differences from Ryu?

okay enlighten me
they still share a lot of the same framework and weight don't they
i wouldn't be surprised if their models are just headswaps

>Relevance doesn't matter in terms of popularity and gross income because I say so

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ssbwiki.com/Ken_(SSBU)#Differences_from_Ryu

You realize the differences between Ken and Ryu are less than Doc to Mario to Young/Toon Link to normal Link right?
Not to mention, all of the characters I listed have different proportions (yes Doc is slightly shorter than Mario), when Lucina had to be remodeled to be identical to Marth

Know what other difference there is? None of them are Echo Fighters.

i dont fucking care, shadow sucks

I could imagine Ken is sorta grandfathered into the term considering he's not just a clone of Ryu, he's THE CLONE
but just goes to show you that even clones in fighting games are more unique than clones in Smash Bros

Doctor Mario and Young Link aren't echoes because I guess they wanted to keep Melee characters their own characters

Yes, and that is why Garchomp can't be an echo of Charizard or X to Mega Man. Their proportions are way too different, so they' require many different animations and hitboxes, thus defeating the purpose of making them echos.

>anthro porn
>human penis
lazy fucking artists

Jeanne to Bayonetta
Protoman to Megaman
Gooigi to Luigi
Octoling from Inkling
Raichu to Pikachu
Funky Kong to Donkey Kong
Dixie to Diddy

>many different animations
The only difference Garchomp would need is the up tilt and up smash, and even then he can just use his back fin and arms respectively.

No, Garchom has longer legs, longer arms, sleeker body, and most of all, he doesn't have a fucking giraffe neck or absurdly long tail, and those two things make up an incredibly large amount of Charizard's moveset
He would make a fine semi-clone, but not a straight-up echo. There's a threshold between the two, and Garchomp clearly passes it

Alter him a little, Sakurai's no stranger to changing characters' sizes and proportions.

Impa > Sheik
Shadow > Sonic
Black Shadow > Falcon
Proto Man > Mega Man
Liquid > Snake
Louie > Olimar
Medusa > Palutena
Funky Kong > DK
Octoling > Inkling
Ninten > Ness

Any of these would make me happy

you're more likely to get him be an echo of ridley than charizard

make Bj Blazkowiczan Echo of Doomguy

>Garchomp Birdo autist at it again
This is why you don't discuss Echo Fighters on Yea Forums

How about Haxorus, then, he's got the long neck and tail and can use his back and tusks for his up tilt and up smash

>Waaaah someone is talking about something that triggers me

i don't see it
Charizard is far to different
Echoes at least need to share similar framework

Shut up furfag

The altering you would need to do to Garchomp in oder to match Charizard is NOT "a little" user.
Literally look at them side-by-side.
Justy so you know, I'm not opposed to this idea, I even had a similar one for Flygon whose both much closer to Charizard in proportion and from an unrepped gen. Flare Blitz is replaced with Dragon Rush, which deals less damage than it but doesn't cause recoil, Flamethrower with Dragon Breath, which has higher hitstun allowing for combos, Fly is the same, and he gets Rock Smash back. Basically an alternate for the Charizard fags from 4 who lost their main

Says the faggot that spergs out every time someone calls you and your ideas out for being retarded

God, Dark Samus is such a disappointing character. I'm hoping that Project M mod gets finished and we a proper playable Samus Negro.

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all things considered they really fucked up with the pokemon they used
like none of these niggas could have a good echo
you got Pichu to Plusle and Minun
and maybe Pikachu to Raichu

but other than that who is an easy echo?

You just dismiss them out of hand and scream fartdookie over the very notion I said anything

She wasn't going to get in any other way user. She's literally lower priority than Isabelle, which is why she's not an echo
Don't hope for much from Project NX though, The leader is a faggot whose said he's not releasing it publicly, and character modding is strictly delegated to value swapping for the foreseeable future
she should've had her AT moves at least though

Grotle for Ivysaur

I'M GOING TO WRING YOUR NECK

based

>don't even sell them as DLC for a few bucks a pop
Why would they waste development time on Echo Fighters when they could be working on the Fighters Pass characters? Why is Yea Forums so retarded

Flygon works too. The problem is so many people here rage and scream and shit themselves over other people wanting things.

>Flygon works too.
not even
the only Pokemon with similar proportions to Charizard is one of his mega forms

Zeraora to Lucario. It's literally just yellow cat Lucario. Lucario doesn't even do anything but punch and kick so not having a tail won't be a problem.

Jigglypuff can have her baby evolution
Charizard can have his mega evolution
I think that's it

I suggested Flygon as a full on Semi-Clone, not an echo.
He could just be the Toon Link or the Roy compared to Charizard, not the Chrom or Daisy

Can you put up a comparison image of Smash Charizard and Flygon so we can determine it?

just look up an image of flygon and an image of smash charizard lol

Alph should have been an echo even with difference as small as using the SS Drake instead of the Hocotate Ship. Maybe they could have added voice clips while they were there. Sakurai is full of fucking shit. Apparently a literal clone using weapons that weren't even specifically designed for Pit is too far but a using a ship that Olimar completely totaled and abandoned as of Alph's game isn't. If anything Louie should have been a costume bugs be damned.

Since your pathetic ass is too lazy. Now point out these titanic differences between them.

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head, arm placement, feet, body size

>tail
>legs
>wings
>arms
>neck and head
easy

Any other trainer over Pokemon Trainer with a different set of starters (Gold with Feraligatr, Bayleef, and Typhlosion, etc. Typhlosion has Flame Charge or Flame Wheel instead of Flare Blitz, Aerial Ace instead of Fly, for example)

don't be retarded

This

They look similar to the same to me. How about them Koopalings and Alph, hm? If they can be modified to be Bowser Jr and Olimar's sizes then Flygon can have the same done to him.

kooplings stay in the clown car
Alph is the same size as Olimar
stop being a blind retard

If Dark Samus can have different animations so can Typhlosion. Charizard doesn't glide anymore so it doesn't have to be a flying type.

It was Nintendo's decision assuming that image is real. I don't care about smash enough to check if the pretense of your thread is real.

>They look similar to the same to me.
lol

Dark Samus still shares the same frame

>kooplings stay in the clown car
Their bodies are hittable too, dipshit, and all of them from pipsqueak Lemmy to massive Morton to lanky Iggy were scaled and modified to Bowser Jr's proportions.

>Ken
>Not important to Street Fighter
Well, fuck you too.

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Fuck off Justin you sand monkey

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the clown is whats doing everything, the kooplings in them don't do much so they sorta cheated

Charizard and Typhlosion are actually the same size, 5 foot 7. They both have a wider lower body than their upper body and tiny arms. The biggest problem would be the tail, though.

Ryu is barely important to Street Fighter's story when you think about it
but that doesn't mean he's not important
same with Ken

and the head, neck, and that Charizard has shoulders and Typhlosion doesn't
you literally can't use the same framework
its to different
stop being fucking daft

The biggest problem is how their proportions are completely different.