What the fuck was the point of echoes...

So he had an excuse to add another Fire Emblem character.

But we couldn't get Dark Link as a Link Echo.

I'd take anything at this point, we haven't gotten a new Zelda character since Brawl.

Clone had bad connotations attached to it, so the solution was to change the name. Also boomer pandering because all the older clones were pretending to be unique characters still.
At least I got Daisy out of it, unironically like the 3rd best newcomer

It was literally just an official term for clones to get people to stop whining about them. Nothing more.

This

Post echoes you want.
>Black Shadow (Captain Falcon)
>Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong)

Also, Dr. Mario should be labelled a Mario echo.

Soul

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i'd prefer a million clones with different properties than one new character
unless that character was phoenix wright. if the game was just mario vs phoenix wright i'd buy a switch

Soulless

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I agree. They shouldn't have put so much of emphasis on it if they only made a small few.

I still can't believe there's sonic fans.

If they would stop fucking making the effort of putting in clones, all that combined time could give us one unique character. We want actual representatives, newfag, that's what Smash has always been about. You'd know that if you were 10 when the first Smash came out on N64 like the rest of us.

What do you mean “so much emphasis”? There’s like 6 of them. Did you expect 20?

To make retarded rosterfags seethe because they still believe clones steal slots and take a lot of resources to make.

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>King Wart (Bowser)
>Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong)
>Metal Sonic (Sonic)

I think Dr. Mario isn’t labeled as an echo just out of legacy (being a Melee “clone”) or that Sakurai just views his alterations more significant than the echoes.

If they have an Echo expansion after the main DLC it'll make sense.

Either that or it's just future-facing rebranding for the series going forward.

I want a boss skin for snake, if not a full character. I want the boss to be my mom.

Not tossing in Shadow as an Echo makes so little sense to me, it goes into the negative %

how do you fail to do something so braindead obvious and easy, people have said since brawl they don't even give a shit if he's just a skin over sonic with a different run animation and taunts.

Isaac also would have been very easy to make out of recycled Roy/Ike animations

I think the Snake in Smash is supposed to be like a fusion of Solid and Naked Snake, it does kind of mess with your brain though because Solid Snake never had a beard, that's a Big Boss thing. So slapping his ancestor's beard onto his clone's design is a bit odd

Chrom's existence makes me wonder why there wasn't more easy to implement characters that were heavily requested.

>Dixie Kong as an echo of Diddy with Donkey's Up B
>Impa as an echo of Sheik with Cloud's Up B

I think we all know that's why he created the term Echoes, the issue is that it's not consistent at all. How is Falco not technically an Echo of Fox? How is Dr Mario not an Echo of Mario? How is Chrom considered an echo when he plays so differently? These are confusing inconsistencies

Sakurai literally said a character is an echo if he says it is. Ken and Ryu are practically different characters, yet Ken is classified as an echo.

nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-smash-bros-ultimate-why-incineroar-was-chosen-and-more/

>The Street Fighter series’ Ken will also be making an appearance in Smash Ultimate. He’s different from Ryu in so many ways, one almost wonders whether or not we should even call him an Echo Fighter… Nope. I said he was, so he is.

People cry about clones when they're shit characters
People love Daisy and Dark Samus due to their importance or notability
People hated Dark Pit and Lucina because muh edge and muh waifu
And you still see plenty of Chrom hate.and Ken hate, take a look around you.

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I'm just saying that if he isn't gonna be consistent he should probably not complain when he gets bombarded by heated letters all the time about arguments his inconsistency causes between everyone in the smash fandom, about how characters are chosen. because his criteria and his rationale in interviews, changes from year to year and often makes no sense.

That's fucking retarded.
Sakurai doesn't know what the fuck he's doing anymore. He should pass the torch to someone who actually gives a shit about the fans.

>Same for Dark Pit because it wouldn't make sense for him to have the Three Sacred Treasures.
>Alph has the Hocotate fright ship
>Koopalings with Paintbrush

people were happy about lucina but not dark pit. the only people angry about lucina just didn't want more FE in general.

>Wanting shit shadow over based Tails.

>i dont like the way he decides what an echo is
>therefore he doesnt give a shit about the fans!!
??

>Wanting Tails over Amy

You got BotW Link.

I think Chrom's was solely to make him not a COMPLETE upgrade from Roy since he doesn't have the hilt sweetspot shit.

Proto Man would've been a good echo fighter

>He should pass the torch to someone who actually gives a shit about the fans.
I've asked this question legit like a dozen times in the past year and nobody has had an answer:

Who?

Who takes over Smash Bros if Sakurai dies or retires?

Who is capable of taking over such an insane, stressfully massive amount of work? It's not just making the game, balancing the game, picking the characters, Sakurai also has to do tons of paperwork and constant meetings with every individual rights-holder to ensure their approval of his additions from their IPs.

If it were anyone else but Sakurai, the series would change significantly because his ridiculously focused and driven work ethic is unique to him

Who cares, as if 3/4 of these characters will even appear again in Smash 6.

>>Alph has the Hocotate fright ship
THIS STILL BOILS MY FUCKING PISS

THEY LITERALLY HAVE THE FUCKING MODEL FOR THE SS DRAKE IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE BACKGROUND OF THE PIKMIN STAGE!!!!! LITERALLY JUST SWAP THE SHIP MODEL IN THE ANIMATION YOU FUCK AHHHHHHH!!!!

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It's not just the echo fighters. It's pretty much the whole way he's been handling Smash.
He puts in Ridley and King K. Rool just so he can say "See! I care about the fans!", which gives him a license to fill up the rest of the roster with garbage.
Incineroar? Isabelle? Fucking Piranha Plant?! What the fuck Sakurai?!

I don't know if the DLC is entirely his decision because it seems super out-of-character that he would put Banjo-Kazooie in after giving such a big "fuck you" to us by making Shadow, Skull Kid, Isaac, and Waluigi assist trophies and a FUCKING PIRANHA PLANT PLAYABLE.

Not every character put into smash has to be a fan request you dumb waluigi fag. Sakurai is under no obligation to even listen to fan requests for characters.

What about Shigeru Miyamoto? He's pretty reliable when it comes to listening to the fans.

>If they would stop fucking making the effort of putting in clones, all that combined time could give us one unique character.
Citation needed.

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Piranha Plant is universally loved by most Smash fans, and you're retarded if you ever thought Incineroar wasn't getting in. Smash Ultimate has had the most fanservice newcomers of any Smash game by far, especially if you include the DLC.characters.
So now I know that what you mean is since Sakurai isn't pandering to your tastes specifically, that means he doesn't care about the fans. Got it.

I don't even care about Waluigi to be honest. Skull Kid was the character I was hoping to see (I'm a big Zelda fan).
But people have been asking for Waluigi since Brawl, so for him to snuff him like that IS an insult to the fans.

>But people have been asking for Waluigi since Brawl
So? People have also been asking for shit like Goku since brawl.

If by "Smash fans" you mean bootlickers who are deepthroating Sakurai so hard they shit cum, then yeah, I guess Piranha Plant is pretty loved.

>ken hate
that's illegal.
playing ken vs ryu with you bro is goat

Yes, that's TOTALLY a fair comparison.
A beloved Mario character is totally comparable to a character from an anime.

Ok? People have been asking for retarded characters like Geno for a long time too? Does that mean Sakurai HAS to cave in and include Geno just cause some people were asking for him?

>Lucina is Marth for noobs
Unfortunately that's not how it works in practice because she's just legitimately better than him.

You know, I once saw a little girl on Miiverse who desperately wanted Mike Wazowski in Super Smash Bros., she was incredibly passionate about that. She'd post over and over in these dumb little misspelled rants how Mike Wazowski would be so cool in Smash Bros.
I guess Sakurai doesn't give a shit about the fans, since I have yet to see Wazowski in Ultimate.

>Dark Samus doesn't use her Assist Trophy attacks

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Every echo besides Ken is pretty much just a model swap with a couple of tweaked numbers that's not even close to a unique character

Look at this edgy faggot and laugh.

Because Sakurai beats his dick to Fire Emblem Awakening.

Time has heightened my disappointment with Ridley. I think I've played him like three times since the game came out. He's so fucking awful to play as, he just feels like shit and moves too slow

all I wanted was classic Super Metroid Ridley with a tail spike or tail grind or fucking something, and instead we got a Crusty elderly Ridley with arthritis. at least they gave him the classic fireball move

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Hitoshi Yamagami

>If they would stop fucking making the effort of putting in clones, all that combined time could give us one unique character.
That was the case back in Melee where there were more new clones than Ultimate, and they also had several times more effort put into making them different than Ultimate does.

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This Ridley looks like garbage compared to the Ridley in ultimate. God Brawl was ugly.

Shigeru Miyamoto is literally trying to retire, he's been saying that for a while now, he wants Nintendo to rely on him less and less until he can just leave everything in the next generation's hands. Splatoon was part of that initiative to trust the younger staff and it paid off big time. Miyamoto doesn't even have a formal title within the company anymore, he's "Creative Fellow" now and is basically just an in-company consultant on everything.

So you think Waluigi is on the same level of feasibility as Mike fucking Wazowski?!
One is a Mario character! You know, the same series he said fuck you to us with Piranha Plant with?
The other is a fucking Pixar character!
Are you FUCKING RETARDED?!

some of the clones end up working very differently despite few differences.
sure, most of them are interchangeable but stuff like chrom/roy are extremely different for having almost the same moves

What's your point? Ultimate also has every character that melee has.

I just wish they had more varying properties to make them interesting to play as. I think that literally the only difference between Simon and Richter is that their down B is fire damage for Simon but aura damage for Richter. Well whoopdee fucking doo. Daisy and Dark Samus are 100% Alph tier

did you think snake or cloud would come back in Ultimate? like come on dude

it's exactly what ridley's official design looks like you stupid faggot.

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No one actually fucking wants Waluigi in you retard. He's a meme.

The continued existence of the Sonic franchise is truly a crime.

Sega got a new model and was shown off at the last minute. Sega obviously got cold feet.

I think Sakurai is just a hack at this point, not even a huge Fire Emblem fan but it's clear to see that the game Chrom comes from has a plethora of weapons and abilities he could have pulled from and yet Sakurai goes "b-but the sword, he has to use it clearly"

This continues in Ultimate where a lot of the newcomers have recycled animations and general playstyles, the game was in development since at least late 2015 with a huge team, there's no way they couldn't have come up with something better than then 3 different newcomers all using the same exact down smash attack

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Because back before ultimate was announced, people didn't think that the next smash game would be built off of Smash 4, which is the only reason they were able to include all these characters.

If they were to start from scratch, they'll never be able to include even half these characters in the base game. Melee was built off of 64, Brawl was built off of melee and Smash 4 was built off of Brawl. The game hasn't started from scratch since it's inception.

People have been asking for Waluigi since Brawl! How long have you been using the Internet for?
He's the fourth Brother. He would complete the set, and he also has a good amount of fans.

no

>Hitoshi Yamagami
Hmm his history looks pretty good. Dr Mario, Game & Watch, Xenoblade, etc

Imagine being this retarded

And it's fucking ugly.

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My point is the work on Ultimate's clones would not equal the work for even a single unique character.

You will be middle aged and way out of the age demographic intended to play Smash by the time Smash 6 even comes out so why do you care so much

And Brawl as a whole looked ugly

I thought Super Metroid was rated E.

Echoes take way less (we're talking waaaay less) development than a new fighter. The reason Dark Pit has a unique move is because it was before echoes were really a thing. Chrom has a "unique" move, but it's actually just Ike's up-special. Sakurai has already said it's to get more wanted picks in without taking up development time for the more important or unique picks.

It's what he looks like. The one in Smash is just coated in disgusting crust for no reason when he has never ever looked that way in any game, not even Prime. He looks closer to shitty OM Ridley which was hands-down the worst design

Nah, Ultimate’s design is the best.

He's talking about the boss, not big boss

> You will be middle aged and way out of the age demographic intended to play Smash by the time Smash 6 even comes out
Not him, but that's fucking true, i'm going to be in my 30's at the time and that's way too old to play video games in my opinion.

This, Tails deserves it way more than Shadow.

who is talking about brawl? i'm using it as a visual example of what ridley is supposed to look like

>Chrom and Dark Pit are echoes and they has unique moves
What unique moves Dark Pit have that isn’t a slight adjustment?

He has literally never showed up in a mainline Mario game. People only want him in because he's a fucking joke. Waluigi's on the same tier as Goku.

Ken shouldn't be called an echo

Well let's just agree to disagree. I think he looks fantastic.

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Ultimate Ridley's design is flat out better than Brawl Ridley, it's not even funny. I still don't know what the hell they were trying to go for in Brawl, it looks like it's trying to be the Super Metroid concept art with dirty/dusty textures but then they give it more cartoony proportions and goofy eyes? Ultimate's design is basically the Zero Mission sprite with different proportions along with Super Metroid coloration, and the Other M blade tail. It's a great amalgamation of the character's previous looks, and it even harkens back to the thing that inspired the Metroid series as a whole by giving him more xenomorph influences.

I'll say though his moveset could be a lot better. That PM Legacy XP mod had a better idea, Ridley's ground game is mediocre but his ground moves are designed to get opponents into the air where he can juggle the shit out of them. The command grab he has there is also way better than the one he has in Ultimate, and truer to his boss fight in Super Metroid

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I'd feel a little bit embarrassed if I were still playing Smash Bros after 35. I would hope by then I'd have a slightly more mature hobby.

> He has literally never showed up in a mainline Mario game
Why does that matter for being playable in Smash? Literally no correlation

>Same for Dark Pit because it wouldn't make sense for him to have the Three Sacred Treasures.
And then for no reason Pit switches to Lightning Chariot, which was used more by Dark Pit in Uprising

It is absolutely a travesty he wasn't an echo with the custom moveset of Megaman in 4.

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He just rebranded clones and shifted the narrative around them to be more positive. For how effective it was, I'm sad we didn't see more.

but they aren't even the same character. his head is like totally wrong and his skin never had that texture. you can see where his eyes are, there's the intended ridley skin and color but it's like his whole body has some kind of crusty buildup over top of it.

it's just money. every 3rd party character means that corporation gets a piece of the pie. It's deals, you know, "this character is in the game" alright I'll cut you into 2% of the profits, then you cut me into 4% of your profits for your next release, and etcetera. unironically "soulless"

He's barely a Mario character. He was made for spinofffs and he'll always be in spinoffs. He's a shit character and it's just a known fact that only retards genuinely want him in, especially when we already have Mario characters out the ass.

>Pit goes to the chariot master
>Climbs the tower by himself
>beats the chariot master fair and square, gaining the right to use Phos and Lux.
>hurr it should have gone to dark pit

Again, it's an amalgamation of the character's previous designs so that he can better work as a playable fighter. Look at this and tell me it's not how he looks in Ultimate just with larger wings and a longer head

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So I take it you hate Piranha Plant, right?

I'm annoyed that they just put 0 attack alterations in Dark Samus / Daisy / Richter.
It doesn't need to be as drastic as Lucina, but at least a few tweaks like Dark Pit has on Neutral B and Side-B.

And Alph deserved to be an echo

>mature hobbies
Lmao like what, fucking golf?

>Ultimate's design is basically the Zero Mission sprite
it looks nothing like his Zero Mission sprite, he looks like Super Metroid design in ZM with a few spikes on his forehead.

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Viridi owns it now, Dark Pit kept using it after Pit was done with it
The Palutena Guidance for Dark Pit even confirms that.

The overall silhouette is way more reminiscent of the ZM sprite than it is of any other incarnation, but since it's an amalgamation it also pulls from Super and bits of Other M.

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Get good dude. Ridley was my first character to get to elite smash.

> He was made for spinofffs
Just like Dr. Mario right? Even Luigi falls under this as Mario Bros. is also a spin-off title and he was created so he could be player 2

I don't care for him as a fighter, but considering he's one of the most iconic enemies in Nintendo history, having appeared in almost every Mario game, I don't mind that he's in. He certainly deserves the spot more than Waluigi, a literal joke character who is and does nothing of importance in the Mario series.
Waluigifags are just as dumb as Ashleyfags, to me.

You're splitting hairs here.

K Rool's Smash design doesn't come from any particular game either, its an amalgamation of multiple designs. Same with Ridley.

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it's not an amalgam because he has traits he never had in any game. it's not like giving solid the beard of his father to combine their designs, he has never looked all crusty like that. if that's just a matter of him being "in HD" then I personally would have just preferred they kept his skin smooth because I find the new one aesthetically ugly to look at and it does not remind me of Super Metroid ridley at all which is what I wanted in Smash Bros

See, this is the sole issue I have with the whole thing. I actually don't mind clones and whatever else, and in plenty of cases I prefer them over their source character. In Smash's case, Sakurai has said numerous times at this point that they barely take away from development time, and are usually last-minute additions anyways. That is to say, all of the major newcomers for the base game are done and over with, these characters are just bonuses for fun. With how inoffensive they are to overall development, it's actually a bit of a surprise that there aren't more of them.
The one and only thing I don't like is the "Echo Fighter" label itself. It's so stupid and arbitrary, and with that interview, he basically confirms the "Echo Process" is essentially: "Hmm, yeah, slap an epsilon on that fighter, that's the next 'Echo'". It's so grossly inconsistent.

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Kill yourself Genofag

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Sure, or learning to cook, or something.

the silhouettes are irrelevant i just don't like his skin texture or his head

He's not even the most iconic enemy in Mario! That would be a Goomba or Koopa.
And you just said that "we already have Mario characters out the ass."
Do I sense hypocrisy?

Except Luigi didn't stay in spinoffs, and I don't like Dr. Mario either. Luigi became an actual endearing and important character in the Mario series. Waluigi doesn't do anything, and like I said above, he's a joke character who still hasn't gotten anything resembling a role in a non-spinoff Mario game since the N64.

Geno's a shit character and there are way other better choices for Mario RPG reps, but whatever you say.

>tailsfags
Shadow, Knuckles, and eggman all deserve a spot over that fag

>how the character actually looks is irrelevant
K user, sorry you didn't get what you wanted but I did

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>wanting Amy over Big

Other M ridley was pretty crusty.

lmao oh fuck off he looks identical to how everyone remembers him from everything he's ever been in. he is DKC K.Rool down to a fucking t, he even stands in his sprite's pose, Ridley is a lot different from his original designs than K.Rool is from any of his own

>a silhouette is "how the character looks"
a silhouette is literally the absence of how they look it's their goddamn outline you fucking homo.

K. Rool's tiny tail, gem, and smaller crown are all from his post-Rare design, and the tattered cape is new to Smash.

No? For starter's the original K Rool design had a much bigger crown. His eye was also way more blood shot.

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Oh yes how could I forget the absolute worst Ridley from the worst game in the franchise

Character silhouette is more important than whatever texture they may or may not have, you're just coming across as a hard to please autist

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Echoes piss me off because it's so inconsistent, ranging from glorified palette swaps to Ken and Ryu being as different as any Melee clone.
It is a buzz word.

Then just use his alts, the "crusty skin" is barely noticeable in most of them. Why it bothers you than an alien-xenomorph-pterodactyl who's main gimmick is being revived multiple times has molting skin i don't know.

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Sakurai's own words were that all the Clones in Smash Melee were the same amount of work it would have taken him to add King Dedede, so he picked the clones. Ganondorf legit almost didn't make it into the game at all he was the very last addition. They cut it so close that Sakurai had to turn down Kojima's request to add Snake then and there.

So i can have two Belmonts.

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> Luigi became an actual endearing and important character in the Mario series.
You could literally only play as him if you had a second controller in all the main games and was in Smash before he even got a real personality and game.

You have no excuses my friend, just pack up and fuck off back to Twitter

You're the one who said that "crusty ridley" wasn't an amalgamation because he never looked like that in any game, but he does.

Damn you're an actual retard, otherwise you'd notice Ridley is also hunched over just like his in every single 2D game he appears in. In fact it was one of the elements that made Sakurai realize he could make the character work as playable, he saw he could leave the character as the biggest in the roster if he just left Ridley hunched over like he is in every sprite pose in the Metroid series

I hope everyone who kept begging for Skull Kid in Hyrule Warriors were happy, he's the most annoying character in the entire game

>You could literally only play as him if you had a second controller in all the main games
That's blatantly wrong, but even if it wasn't that's still more than Waluigi, so if anything that just drives home how much of a joke Waluigi is.

This, why the fuck would Dark Samus use Bombs either. Her down b should be the phazon tentacle like her Assist attack, and her charged uptilt should produce a couple projectiles like her Assist fires off

The only thing better in Brawl's Ridley is the gum of his teeth

Sakurai once said during an interview that he got some of the weirdest requests, like he said people even asked for Spongebob in Japan despite not a single spongebob game ever coming out in Japan

>Japan never got Battle for Bikini Bottom
What a shame

>Disney has one of these garbage zero effort Live Action reimaginings lined up for many years into the foreseeable future

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That's blatantly wrong, but even if it wasn't that's still more than
Go play Super Mario Bros, you can only play Luigi on 2 player game, you can't pick him on the default game unless you used debug shit

In SMW, he's just Mario in green clothes, nobody gave a fuck to Weegee back then

I just want them to declone Daisy next game and allow her to summon the bosses from Mario Land.

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I think they started getting the games after Creature from the Krusty Krab.

I like his Prime alt I wish it wasn't just two of 8 alts but it's fine. honestly i shouldn't be complaining you're right.

i just really don't like his default, don't know why people would not prefer his super metroid design where he just looks like a crazy dragon.

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Nah, DSamus down special should've been boost ball to compliment a rushdown variant of Samus, with faster fallspeed and close range gattling gun replacing charge shot. That tendril attack coulda been down smash

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I didn't see a point in making Marth but easier

I dunno man, Brawl Ridley never felt true to the series he came from, he just looked too wacky and goofy

I would like Nintendo to just fucking acknowledge Sarasaland in some form, like the Kingdom as a place which exists in their world. They reference Super Mario Land the GAME, but outside of a single reference to Sarasaland when she appears in Smash, it's like her whole kingdom doesn't exist. it's never had a track themed around it in Mario Kart, never had a map in Mario Party, never been shown in any form whatsoever since Super Mario Land GB

i don't know why you keep referencing brawl, his design in brawl is just how he fucking looks dude

if people don't like how ridley looks why did everyone want him so fucking bad. now suddenly this shit new design is better? why did you want him in the first place?

I don't like to attack fans instead of the company, but holy fucking shit smashfags are the most entitled group of little shit brats on the fucking planet.

You are such a whiny bitch. Sorry you didn't get your way, but you're in the minority, Ridley looks fantastic in Ultimate to basically everyone else.

>wanting Big over Cubot

Because you brought it up to begin with and it's a fucking failure at adapting that specific look, look at this shit and tell me Brawl's version feels true to it

Ult Ridley is an amalgamated design but it still feels more like the character far more than that goofy thing ever did

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Rule number 1 of character design is interesting silhouettes, you turbo fuck.

Literally no purpose other than "please stop being mad about Dark Pit and FE."

Nobody's favorite Sonic character is Tails. Eggman, Knuckles, Amy, and Shadow would deserve to be in over him.

I just want a jeanne echo

Preferably Amy for obvious reasons.

why are you people being deliberately retarded

i said the silhouette does not matter in this specific fucking context because his silhouette is not the part of the design they changed significantly so it is not relevant, to this particular, fucking conversation

They only exist so they can claim the game has X+6 amount of playable characters

Miyamoto hates videogames lmao

I literally never brought up Brawl. This is a Legacy XP model for Project M which simply demonstrates what I wanted Ridley to look like when he was finally added, because it's what he actually looks like, from the very beginning all the way to ZM he was slight variants of that design, with smooth reptilian skin and a fairly simple design overall. not overly busy or crusty or slow looking.

ridley is one of the most fun characters in the game. He has flaws but he isn't the worst.

i really hope that after the first DLC wave we get a second smaller one with a bunch of echos. it just feels stupid to create a new term for clones and not use it more

Why are YOU being so whiny and retarded?
>But his textures!
>user gives an explanation of him being an amalgamation
>But I don't like it so you're wroooong. Boo hoo.
Do you just want us to change our mind and agree with you? I like that he's crusty looking, I think it's bitchin'. Makes him look more like an alien than JUST a dragon.

>one of the most fun characters in the game
then why does hardly anyone play him casually or professionally

Alright my b on that front, saw the pic and assumed.
I still stand by my opinion, I just can't be dissatisfied with this design, it feels perfect for the character to me.

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>any Punch-Out echo
>Birdo (I know echoes have all been same series, but Yoshi's a failed series anyway)
>Liquid or Big Boss (never ever)

I really wish they could've just slapped an eyepatch on the jungle camo alt.

they're plaebians

Raiden would theoretically be the most appropriate echo for Snake. Just change his dash attack to a cartwheel, and you're golden.

>Ken hate
I have literally never seen anyone complain about Ken

It's cooled down, but that stemmed from him being the oh so obvious pick and every leaker sucking his cock, which got kind of old.

Funny enough, one was real.

I can't really speak casually outside of the friends group I play with
As for professionally it's because the character sucks at higher levels of play, awkward recovery and too light for his own good so he dies easy

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An amalgamation of what

he has never fucking looked like he does in Ultimate in any game

show me the game where he was "amalgamed" from, they didn't give an explanation they just said "it's an amalgamation" and linked ZM sprite which blatantly looks nothing like Ultimate ridley

I'm getting fucking annoyed because I'm being argued with but you aren't disproving anything i'm saying. Ridley has never looked like a Monster Hunter dragon. He had smooth reptilian skin and his favorite hobby was shrieking and flying around. In Smash he's not smooth, not quick, he can barely lift his own weight despite casually swooping around you in all Metroid games, when his Legacy XP version looks and plays exactly like he does in Super Metroid (grinding his tail along the ground, stabbing with his tail from above, proper flying) showing it's perfectly possible to do

I simply dared to express that I don't like his design/moveset much and everyone got in my face to say i was wrong

SML had so much great shit that could get brought back. The bosses, the environments, and especially the soundtrack are all excellent.

That was back in the early 2000s.

My biggest issue by far is the lack of a tail spike, I think just replacing his Dair with that would make me way happier with him. His Up B is also some pretty lazy garbage.

Come one man you're just being willfully ignorant at this point

>Ultimate's design is basically the Zero Mission sprite with different proportions along with Super Metroid coloration, and the Other M blade tail.
You just skim over these or something?

He doesn't look like Ultimate ridley in ZM at all, you can blatantly see on their own fucking examples that he had smooth skin as usual in ZM sprites

>OM
Besides being his absolute worst design, all they really changed in OM was making him extremely muscular. Also that wasn't even the real Ridley but a fake clone of him, same as in Smash 4, where we can clearly see now with the model in HD that his skin is still smooth

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Again, you're being disingenuous
Never said the skin is what what was pulled from ZM, it's the overall silhouette and then they borrowed the coloration from Super, and then incorporated elements from Other M including the tail blade and head spikes.

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She should have been in. Zelda hasn't had a new rep since Melee (Young Link and Toon Link are the same thing), she's the most consistent recurring character in the franchise even if she doesn't look the same and Hyrule Warriors was a huge hit.

I mean, shit, in Skyward Sword she basically did everything Sheik actually does in Smash.

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none of those things were what i was complaining about except the head which i still think looks stupid and overdesigned. he's just supposed to look like an alien pterodactyl, nice and simple, i just find his smash ultimate design too busy and overly detailed when placed next to any other character who have all been distilled down to their purest and simplest iconic forms.

Again we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here, Ult Ridley's design to me feels iconic and representative of the character

What I don't get is why they only made 5. The whole thing just seems underutilized now. It's fucking weird and a bit of a waste.

but it looks nothing like him

it can't be "iconic" because his iconic design looks like this and has looked like that in various colors in every single game with slight changes to his head and that's about it. his ult design isn't based on anything it's just made up

easy dlc in between fighter pass 1 and 2 if that happens

This is ultimately my problem, way more than this echo/clone stuff.
Let's just take a look at Shovel Knight in another platformer fighting game, Rivals of Aether. That smaller game went to great lengths to make the character feel incredibly unique, and pulled tons of iconography and moves from the game he originated from. While the character doesn't deserve or fit as playable in Smash bros, let's say hypothetically that they added him in Ultimate.

You just know that his moveset would be a couple shovel swipes, maybe 1 or 2 items he uses in his game as special, and a ton of animations borrowed from other characters to cut down on development time. It would feel cynical and uninspired, and that's really my problem with the series as it is now, it's so big and developed on such a time crunch, the only Smash game to actually have a standard development cycle was Brawl and it shows from how much content that game had. The series is too big for it's own good

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because to make smash content they have to keep a dedicated team together the entire time until all the DLC is done, which is months of salary for dozens of employees, not to mention navigating the ocean of red tape that is guest characters and cameos. notice how they just barely add any spirits now? it's cuz he's constantly busy on adding these DLCs.

you have to remember they need to test every single attack against the new characters and do all of the content with them, to ensure that some random move doesn't hard crash the game or something

This user completely laid it out for you. If you're too goddamn stupid to figure it out from this then its you're own autistic fault

The recycling got pretty extreme in ultimate, many obvious recycled moves and animations.

>finally give ganon a sword
>except he's not TP version anymore so he busts out some random greatsword he's never used before, especially not in OOT where he used Sai weapons
>all greatsword moves are just recycled from ike and cloud

i liked his old moves better desu

It's the sword he used in the Spaceworld tech demo showing off the GameCube almost two decades ago.

youtu.be/wBtAvX4Pkyk

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>finally give ganon a sword
>except he's not TP version anymore so he busts out some random greatsword he's never used before

Uh, it's from the famous Spaceworld demo before they started making Wind Waker. They referenced it in Melee in one of his win animations.

but brawl had bar none the most uninspired movesets for their newcomers.

Probably also because so many companies have ridiculous autism about how Sakurai is allowed to use their characters.

Stuff like how the Pokemon aren't allowed to have their true Shiny colors as alts because gamefreak has this stupid autistic attitude that it cheapens shinies to let them appear a lot

Sakurai also said Dragon Quest was a bit of a rough addition because apparently Square has some stupid rule that the DQ heroes can't interact with each other.

He never uses it in the final game though. I get the reference, but it's a bit of a stretch. I was just pointing out that it's funny he finally gets a sword the moment they stop using the Ganon who actually wielded an iconic sword.

>Piranha Plant is universally loved by most Smash fans,
He's really not

why are all smash knockoffs so shit? you can literally rent nintendo's engine to make these knockoffs can't you? isn't that what the Cartoon Network and Kung Fu Panda ones were made with?

They are an easy way to implement a different character without making a whole new moveset, so clones with a fancy name, and in Ultimate's case they are most likely there to pad out the roster.
Anyone who thinks they took the place of another "potential" character is delusional, like if Richter wasn't there Alucard would've been playable instead for example. I do agree that they went out of hand with FE though, I blame it to Roy existing.

Reminder that this Spaceworld demo is the reason why Ganondorf made it into Melee in the first place

Echoes were a mistake. They were just an excuse to inflate the number of fighters and make journalists and shills say that the game has over 70 fighters

Alts > Echoes. Wastes less development time since there's no need to do different animations and it allows for a larger cast of characters to get into the game. Compare the koopalings and the 4 heroes to fucking Simon+Richter. It would have been far better to have Richter + multiple other castlevania characters like Trevor, Julius and Jonathan as Simon alts.
But no
Gotta have the Richter echo take up space in the character select screen and make him waste my time by forcing me to unlock Simon twice.

What I don't like is how lukewarm they're with the concept.
>supposed to be 1:1 exactly the same character
>Dasiy, Richter and Dark Samus are exactly that
>Dark pit has a single different move with different properties
>Lucina and Chrom fundamentally change the way the character can be played and are overall superior in most aspects to the original
>Ken outright has different moves with different properties

Nah, people just use Lucina more and lab her combos more which means more tech is found out. Marth has stronger Jank such as tipper D-Tilt -> Tipper F-Smash which kills at about 60-80%. Tipper Dancing Blade has several ways to set it up and kills relatively early too.

But why space and be mindful of the enemy % when you can just press buttons and get kills with Lucina about 20% later anyways.

Professionally it's pretty obvious. You're there to win and make results so you can obtain money and sponsors. You play as the top characters that align with your playstyle to give you the greatest of chances.

DS is a really cool villain that sadly got skipped over in Brawl and Richter is my Belmont nigga. Lucina and Chrom are gross though

>We could have had Ganon(dorf) with an actual moveset if it wasn't for Spaceworld
Damn.

>can’t climb/cling to walls
>no Revaili’s gale up-b
>no parry/reflect mechanic with the shield changes
Hackuraiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!

It fits for Super Ridley, of course the motherfucker is gonna be dying and decaying after all the shit he went through.

Alts essentially mean the character isn’t in the game. Them being alts would also mean characters like Dark Samus are stuck with Samus’ boring as fuck animations

Honestly if he directed we’d get dr fucking Luigi and probably a Ms game and watch as fucking echos.

>Dr. Mario should be labelled a Mario echo.

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Yeah, I sure hate the fact that the faggot luminary got into the game instead of based Erdrick

Also, shit like Dark Samus and Daisy don't deserve to have unique animations coded in because they barely deserve to be in the game in the first place

that's a bunch of autistic slight changes he did probably specifically because he knew everyone was going to call Doc an echo, in melee they were functionally identical aside from the tiniest of differences. Chrom plays significantly different from Roy so how the fuck is HE an Echo?

Luminary’s animations are so generic they can fit all of them into the same mold and have it work and why tho
Dark Samus is the villain of three main Metroid games that all sold decently and was more important than Ridley for a while

the detonatable bombs are a lot less interesting for combos than they were played up to be and aside from that his moves are pretty much the same but with a new idle stance

people don't like dark samus being added because they are plebs who never played prime and don't know how awesome she is.

Alts only work if the base character's animations match the alt's personality or if there isn't a lot of personality either way. Olimar/Alph act pretty bland in Smash and most of BJ/Koopalings' animations are just riding around in the car. At the bare minimum, Echoes should exist to make alts actually feel like the character even if they serve the same function in gameplay. If Daisy did the same dainty prance as Peach instead of her tomboyish hustle, why even bother.

Dark Samus deserves to be in more than ZSS. Dark Samus shouldn’t even be an clone at all.

This

>Show why Doc isn't an echo, never mind the changes Mario went through in Brawl onward
>NO THATS STUPID AND AUTISTIC
Every time.

They still cut corners with Dark Samus's animations.
Movement, F-Smash, U-Smash, and a small number of other attacks got unique animations, but the ones where Dark Samus uses Samus's attack animation have this quirk where the final frames of the move feature Dark Samus going into Samus's idle animation for a moment before that shifts back to Dark Samus's idle.

The only reason Doc's list is longer is because it it comparing specifics on the moves both Marios share.
While the Ken/Ryu list has a lot of "this move is totally different"

ZSS pisses me off because I really liked her in Brawl, she was an exact copy of her original design concept art (yknow the one that infamously specifies in dev notes that samus should never wear high heels). Her limbs weren't completely noodley. Her animations were normal. Her body was naturally proportioned so her breasts hung like normal breasts and you could see the wrinkles in her suit because it was hugging her skin so closely, and you could see her ribs.

Smash 4, she has been entirely eclipsed by Other M, now has that fucking mole from OM, her tits are sticking straight out, and instead of being cold and aloof she's now pouty and sexy-faced. Her body is now like rubber and does not obey anatomy, limbs bend unnaturally (her arms were awkwardly raised during her Neutral B to show her chest better for no reason but to see her boobs more clearly. She looks like a hyper-idealized realdoll of samus with bimbo setting turned up to 11

Stay seething SA2Babby

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Still enough compared to the others.

oh and i didn't even mention that her feet in 4 and ultimate are literally like sausaged into her shoes in a way where all the bones in her feet would have to break to wear them for any length of time let alone in a fucking battle. No wonder Sakurai removed tripping after Brawl, if ZSS tripped in those things it would annihilate her ankles

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ZSS pisses me off because she has always been far better than Samus competitively - faster with better kill moves.

Like back in Brawl it was supposed to be almost a handicap of using Samus's final smash, but it was the opposite and ZSS's FS could be considered one of the last moves you would want to use.

because when sakurai made brawl he had not yet grasped that speed is what people are playing smash for, not throwing random items at each other and generically slapfighting without focus. he was trying to be the opposite of melee so of course the fast characters who survived the huge nerf in physics and momentum from Melee, rose to the top

thank god ultimate was balanced by people who actually know what they are doing to some degree, and at least make patch notes. I guess at some point they realized it was pretty fucking stupid to be hosting their own tourneys for this game but refusing to give patch notes.

also he thought samus was one of the best characters for an extremely long time just because of her charge shot so that should really tell you how different his gameplay is from everyone else's

Okay, but can they stop fucking around with Samus and at least not have Jab 1 -> Jab 2 be a bad move on purpose?

>that one loading screen "tip" that says samus' second jab sucks and you should just run away instead of using it

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echoes are just an excuse to make the roster look bigger and make retards believe there's a lot of characters when in reality those are just fucking costumes

Are there any other characters with jabs that fail to link into each other?

Raiden in his MGS2 look

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We don't need another snake

>not wanting daisy playable in a nintendo all-stars game
pathetic

unironically that better be fixed in patch 4.0. why make Samus suffer like that?

Only crime with echos is the fact some are just carbon copies. I get that they had to cut corners and save space in some areas. But they could have easily changed up some of their moves to be a bit different. Hell they even went out of their way to make some the exact same like the Peach/Daisy patch.

Also Samus and DS have slightly different properties. Primerly due to the way DS moves. But also her up smash catches people standing on the ground unlike samus.

>People like sonic modern sonic

This
Dark Samus is literally the exact same character as Samus. Some nice animations but a lot are carried straight over. No new audio clips. It’s a shame

Hard work isn't a Sakurai only trait. And Smash has gotten big enough to a point where 3rd parties are more than willing to play ball if the terms are fair. Hell listening to the Kirby and Samus fans, its long over due.

The only variable in the equation is how much time Nintendo gives the series to be properly developed and fun. If they just start seeing it as nothing more than a vehicle to market their game IPs, then quality as whole is going to suffer.

They honest to god should fuse Samus and ZSS into one character, keeping Zero Suit's speed and Regular Samus' power. Keep her best moves or merge them into one like combining their up-b. Make Zero Suit an alternate costume and there you go.

>Hard work isn't a Sakurai only trait.
His specific obsessive focus is unique to him. This is the guy Iwata used to have to lure out of his office to sleep and eat.

my favorite part is how he added those heels to ZSS but didn't make her any taller. he just used the erase tool on the arch and heel of her foot to make a gap accommodating the high heel so her foot is totally mangled to fit into them.

Unironically this

If a character can easily be implemented as an echo, they should be.
No excuse to not have Shadow, Jeanne, Funky Kong, Alph, etc.

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user you're not Japanese™ if you don't nearly work yourself to bad health and grave for your job.

There is always one in a Japanese company.

>What about Shigeru Miyamoto? He's pretty reliable when it comes to listening to the fans

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Alph was always intended to be an Echo but they couldn't finish implementing Rock pikmin for him so they just made him a costume

Nintendo legit has new policies in place specifically to bar anyone from overworking themselves nowadays.

This is what I wanted Dark Samus to be and I'm so sad she's just a clone.

>Phoenix Wright (Ganondorf)
>Phoenix Wright (Jigglypuff)
>Miles Edgeworth (Little Mac)
>Sephiroth (Young Link)

>have the opportunity to do it in Ultimate
>still don't do it and make four other echoes from scratch instead

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I would actually love it if they doubled the number of echos over incremental updates, but they unfortunately didn't do that.

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what's worse to me is not fucking giving alph the Drake for the final smash. he doesn't have to change ANYTHING. It's JUST a model swap. He HAS the model, it's in the goddamn Pikmin stage right there.

Which is why I'm kinda pissed they skipped out on him this time. He would have been an easy echo slot, they'd only have to change up a few things and fans would eat it up. Besides, Pikmin could use a bit more representation.

>no dark Samus laugh taunt

What the fuck happened to Pikmin 4? Didn't Miyamoto say it was "basically done" back during the Wii U era?

>pretty reliable
>one game somehow makes him not pretty reliable
fuck you

preach brother
shadow and isaac both got revealed in the last direct on purpose just to piss off fans.
honestly the entire direct was where they threw all the bad news bullshit in and tried to bandaid it with the only good cutscene in the whole game

The same thing that happened when Pikmin 3 was "basically done" back in 2009 or so.

you think they had another two-screen build and scrapped it?

It was the last home console game he designed.
Before that it was Wii Fit.

He mostly does Producer roles now and would not be suitable for the hands on mechanical design that was demanded for Smash.

I honestly think they thought they were "saving the best for last" and were completely oblivious to how not revealing those popular assist characters would look to fans.

What are some other retarded statements and mannerisms concerning companies and the use of their properties in Smash Bros.?
>Game Freak: "Pokemon can't have their Shiny palettes because it cheapens the Shiny"
>Square Enix: "Only certain DQ Heroes are allowed to battle and interact with one another"
>Also Square Enix: "Be thankful we even allowed Cloud/Final Fantasy in Smash you UNGRATEFUL HEATHENS"

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Why the fuck would anyone want a character who does nothing except hold a ipad and crys for Sonic the moment an enemy so much as looks at him?

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Sonic is only allowed to be shades of blue
Pacman is only permitted to be one exact shade of Yellow (and Sakurai said if they had forced him to use Ghostly Adventures design he would have refused to add him at all)

not a bad mindset but its debunked by incineroar, spirits mode, and literally the options menu

this retard bought sonic forces

Hey Pikmin is Pikmin 4, get over it

pretty sure hey pikmin was just to recoup losses from chibi robo zip line or whatever it was called.

Never played Forces, but I did play Unleashed, Generations, Colors, and Lost world and that yellow faggot was a useless little shit in all of them.

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Then at least skin his purple Pikmin as Rock

In the original games he’s got all of Sonic’s abilities and can fly. In the Adventure games he’s a hotshot pilot whose plane also turns into a gigantic mech he uses to blow shit up.

Yuji Naka is gone user, Tails is an entirely different character now.

>In the original games he’s got all of Sonic’s abilities and can fly.
This also applies to all 3 Advanced games. Which means he was still doing things.
>Adventure games he’s a hotshot pilot whose plane
He also did this in Unleashed, he was actually necessary to cross the planet. So I don’t get his complaint about Unleashed.

Along with these things, there’s Rush Adventure where he was able to take minerals and build machines to cross the sea. And in Sonic Battle he could pretty much hold his own pretty well. It’s pretty sad how Tails had dropped post Unleashed. At least he isn’t a sideliner in Mania.

Ha, I have no idea how I forgot about those two. It's simply ridiculous, why attach all of these bullshit, arbitrary rules for? Why do creators, dev teams, and general companies not want their content to be displayed to their absolute fullest potential, in a game that's all about celebrating video games? It's just illogical to me. Just about every little detail in Smash means something, be it a simple palette swap to a musical track.

Usually these kinds of rules exist to ensure there are no fuck ups with misrepresenting the IP and hurting its reputation, but they can go too far at times.

Though we still have shit like the Sonic movie coming out, so idk.

HERE'S HOW TO IMPROVE THE ALREADY EXISTING ECHOES AND CLONES WITH LITTLE WORK NEEDED

Dr. Mario
>give him a Dr. Mario-esque final smash
Pichu
>keep his final smash and give pikachu Thunderbolt as a final smash
Young Link
>fierce deity final smash, that way all 3 links have different final smashes
Alph
>make him his own character and he can only use rock pikmin, his final smash uses his actual ship
Dark Pit
>nothing to do with dark pit, he's fine, but FUCKING CHANGE BACK PITS FINAL SMASH BACK TO THE THREE TREASURES FOR CHRIST SAKE
Lucina
>make her shorter like in smash 4, it's so weird seeing her the same size as chrom
Daisy
>give her the ability to pluck out beam swords to differenciate from peach pulling out mr. saturns
>make her side special rise up instead of moving to the side and have it semi spike
Dark Samus
>make her gravity much much less than samus
>give her a more phazon looking final smash, like that spike shield move she does in smash 4 but bigger
Richter
>make his holy water move like it does in CRoB
>make his down tilt and up special have more distance but less damage
>make richter have better mobility than simon but has less kill power
>his new final smash be Hydro Storm, while Simon keeps Grand Cross
thoughts? echoes and clones i didn't mention i think are fine

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I remember that the pokemon amiibo costumes in Mario Maker had no sound effects because Gamefreak/The Pokemon Company is just that stingy, along with the Pokemon amiibo also being the most underutlized across all games in general.
Just why?

IMO Samus is the one who could use a change in Final Smash to an actual canon move.
Actually fits for Dark Samus because a giant phazon beam is how she KO'd all the hunters at the start of Prime 3, and there was a similat move she used in Prime 2's last fight.

echo dlc pack after this pass ends, mark my words

>Hydro Storm
Why do people really want this to be his final smash outside of secondary memes? It would be either total shit (30% or so damage to all opponents but no KO potential) or even more busted than Zelda and Peach's (anyone over 70% give or take straight up fucking dies no matter where they are, Zelda's is almost that bad but at least stops at only a single opponent)

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It was actually genius. People complained nonstop about clones in Smash 4, but once they started calling them Echo Fighters everyone loved them and wanted more.

>people ITT defending echos and wanting MORE of them
This is why you don't listen to fans.

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What the fuck was the point of talking about this boring game? I got bored of this game 3 months after release

it would be funny to screenwipe everybody with a light drizzle of rain come on

>People just don't play Marth enough
Reminder that even MKLeo tried and failed to main Marth in Ultimate

I think Young Link should have a slingshot instead of a bow honestly

booyah

The reason why the definition of echo is inconsistent is that if he made a character like Dr. Mario, Falco, or Lucas echos of their respective characters, then they have to make Ganondorf an echo of Falcon, which they do NOT want to do because they're from different series, and there is no way that they can cut Ganon or Falcon from future Smash games so they would be stuck with that decision forever

basically it's a bunch of bullshit

>canonically trained by the same person as Ike
>most popular villain in the franchise
>"dude lets add a 3rd Awakening character and make him one of 4 Marths"
I'm still mad

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based

I'm kinda pissed she doesn't revert back to Metroid Prime as a final

>here's your mii fighter bro

WHY

>Wanting Amy
she'd better fit as an assist trophy and that's a fact.

He didn't. He just played different characters. He was really trying to push the Ike meme before Joker came out and only changed to Lucina when he needed to.

Because everybody wanted their favorite character in, but people also inevitably complained about "wasted roster slots." It was the only way Sakurai could please everyone.

Everyone, that is, except for muppets like you.

do we even have a hammer character?
I'd much prefer Shadow or Tails realistically but Amy would be fun

>Final Smash
Nobody uses Final Smashes.

The fact that Dr.Mario isn’t an echo bothers me

D
D
D

do you even play the game?

>heavier and slower
>more damage
>different down B
>different Dair
>most attacks have different properties
>Less combo game, faster kills from more powerful moves

oh yeah
>unga bunga
there's a ton of characters

and you're talking about adding more you mong

I'm used to getting costum'd

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>Miyu (Fox)
>Fay (Falco)
>Gooigi (Luigi)
>Dark Bowser (Bowser)
>Phoenix (Captain Falcon)
>Mighty (Sonic)
>Ms. Pac-Man (Pac-Man)
>Zack Fair (Cloud)

..and?

I feel like seeing shadow do sonic spin dashes and shit would be out of place considering shadow is kind of known for his own thing now, chaos control and guns and all that gay shit

>We have a fully rendered Chrom model from the Robin F-Smash
>We also have Roy, who also needs an easy mode alt a-la Marth/Lucina.
Like, its easy to see the thought process of how Chrom came to be with minmal effort.

>MKLeo on Twitter saying that he sees real potential in Marth
>Goes Marth in a set
>Loses
>Switches to Lucina
>Wins
>Never plays Marth again

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I don't think anybody likes nu-shadow though.
although his design hasn't changed they would probably go with a sonic echo since he was like that in his most notable games

What are you a child that just wants action figures? To flail them around like a toddler for a few hours then go back to mom to cry for newer ones.

If mother fucking ~70+~ characters isn't enough for you then I seriously question whether you are even interested in playing the game.

-Impa (Basically Melee Zelda/Sheik)
-Dixie Kong (Diddy / Dk echo)
-Ninten
-Jeanne
-Octoling / Agent 8

Upvoted

He does have potential. Nobody labs it because the reward isn't enough and his competence is powercrept. In Smash 4 Ike was way too slow, Roy struggled to approach and died very easily, and Lucina only did lile 1% more damage over Marth and lacked a tipper.

Now Ike is fast enough to take advantage of his full range, Roy and Chrom are stupidly fast and deadly thanks to the global buff to all aerials, and Lucina only deals like 1-2% than the tipper hits across all her moveset. Lucina is basically Marth with the tipper on all the time and unless they make either tippers much easier to connect (as in Melee easy) or have them be crazy strong there is little reason to bother with his potential.

The only accetable answer

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Like, do YOU actually use it?

what would tails do, bend over and call for sonic? at least amy actually would fight

Yes.

>wanting cubot over bean

Daisy did shit for the Mario series, what are you on about?

>not protoman

There's not enough. They're just glorified clones but I like it. If it means we get insane shit like Dry Bowser and Ninten in the roster of future games I'm down. But why Alph isn't an echo or why shit like Dr Mario is a unique character is beyond me

>projecting this hard
we don't need new characters but why wouldn't we want more?
sounds like you need to take a break from smash buddy

lurk moar

I've wanted waluigi in smash ever since I played mario tennis

>snes cd
WAT

>wanting shadow over knuckles
Growing up playing s2,3&k and reading the Archie s&k comic(s), it just seems to me that shadow is a purely zoomer choice as a secondary sonic character

He's the second most popular Sonic character

idk i can see pic related making the cut too

Attached: 016.jpg (1024x1175, 176K)

>But why Alph isn't an echo or why shit like Dr Mario is a unique character is beyond me
All the new echo fighters are popular characters. It'd be pointless to make Alph an echo if nobody was pushing for it.