What went so wrong with MMOs?

It has good story and music but that's about it. You'll be stuck with the dull fetch quest like any other MMO. Combat is very hit 123 for combo and just dodge shit.

Just fucking try it out yourself, its free for the first 35 levels and you can re-roll a different class at any time.

Innovation is at a low point.
When WoW got popular, it introduced a lot of neat concepts and the novelty was addictive.
Now we see the same old shit repeated time and time again and it is getting old.
Additionally, we lack the tech to improve it to the promise land of a VR-based MMO that isn't Second Life or VR Chat.

t. lvl 25

you forgot runescape

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>Fortnite is older than most of the games on that list
It's literally not you big autist

This is why the first time you ever try an MMO you find interesting you play it until you get bored with the genre or you stick with it forever. They're all the got damn same.
I also kinda wonder why the fuck VRChat doesn't just tack on a world to grind shit.

>no bdo
aw shucks doo

>Fortnite came out in 2017
>oldest game on the list came out in 2012
strange bait

>fortnite is older than most games on that list
Man u stupid as all hell, fortnite is only like 3 years old. Half of those games are older than that.

>Tabula Rasa

Man I was hoping that was gonna be good

youngest game, rather

There's nothing wrong with MMOs. People are the problem. They're less open, less willing to socialize, and demand instant gratificaiton. MMOs simply serve the market they have.

You're right, I'm fucking retarded.
I don't know why I thought it released in 2011/2012 and didn't have a battle royale mode until after PUBG did it '17/'18

What would you grind for in VR chat anyway? Reputation?
The only thing you could feasibly track in that game is playtime.

WoW showed how you could casualize the genre to make it appeal to the lowest common denominator, so everyone copied that because they want money and you get the most money by appealing to the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator, however, have either settled in FFXIV or moved on to the next shiny object (perhaps MOBAs for some time, but now battle royales).

it did release without battle royale, but in 2017

>hurr durr there was a game called fortnite in 2012
>therefor fortnite came out first
Hey Star Wars Battlefront 2 was released in 2005 so EA has been fucking us around with shitty lootboxes for 13 years!

That's you. That's how fucking retarded you are. Yes, Fortnite came out ages ago. But the Fortnite we know today didn't come out until 2017. It's a completely different game and marketed as such, just reuses an old name.

Tera isn't even relevant anymore.

I believe that was when it was originally announced, during the rising Minecraft excitement since that was what it was trying to emulate.

Then it tried to be a shitty co-op tower shooter and failed, and I wished it had failed at chasing the Battle Royale thing too just because I live on schadenfreude

So now that Battle Royales are a thing for the lowest common denominator, is there anyway a reboot of the genre could ever happen among dedicated MMO players, or is the golden age over?

Yeah this meme is from 2010.

They moved away from being online social adventure games and towards being endgame-focused handholdy single player RPGs + matchmade coop fights with conveniences prioritized over adventure, immersion, or persuasion to interact with other human beings.

milking whales
that's why everyone should play private servers whenever available. There are more than just WoW ones. There is even some for BDO.

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My gut tells me no, because I can't recall a genre being huge, then dying, and then making a comeback as a niche genre. My head tells me that this does happen if you look at indie games, but can an indie developer support an MMO? Indie developers don't even like tackling the MO, but the M is actually sort of antithetical to "indie."

I would also add that they "solve a lot of problems" that older MMOs had, but those problems were also kinda' what made them MMOs. They've become less competitive by being more instance-based than open world-based and there's been multiple attempts to make it so higher level players are actually discouraged from even being in lower level zones.

What's funny is you can see this evolution in, of all fucking places, Valve's games. Specifically, TF2's and Dota's holiday events. They've changed over time to be more inclusive or egalitarian, so nobody feels left out, and it's caused their holiday events to feel shittier and shittier every year.

Only if these things don't bother you
>World feels empty and lifeless
>You will be teleportation all over the place
>Dungeons are boring hallways, there is no cc you just zerg through them
>Loot is boring because every item just has optimized stats for your class so only iLvl matters (no random procs/effects)
>again - world doesn't feel like a world, this really bothered me the most.
if you don't care about any of this than you probably will like it.

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MMOs don't deserve to be saved

I actually really liked Darkfall.
It was one of the only sandbox MMOs I really got into, and I have fond memories of it.

Having a city with your guild and defending it from other guilds was really compelling, since the castles are actually in world and each one looks different. There was something great about operating out of your guilds city instead of just an NPC city.

Combat was meh though, and it was stupid how you had to be jack of all trades or you'd get dunked on. Thats probably what killed it; Every player was basically the same but at different levels of progress.

Every game copied the WoW formula after WoW distilled the worst parts of Everquest into a pure progression themepark treadmill game, with a few niche exceptions like DFO and APB, with EVE Online being the sole remaining traditional persistent, player driven world UO style MMO.

That's the core problem, gamers are more casual than they used to be and simply cannot handle what MMOs were originally nor will they put in the work to build up a game like people did in UO, in SWG, ect. If they got PK'd and lost their items they'd just quit. So every game has to be a WoW style progression treadmill where death is meaningless and there is no relevant loss ever. Without that you don't have actual drama. EVE has grown stagnant and never had good gameplay. Darkfall and Mortal Online tried to add more action gameplay to the traditional high freedom MMO subgenre but both were very, very, very shitty games with bad development teams.

Ironically single player games are openworld games but MMO are less than before, sometimes are purely instanced

This user is being antagonistic, but there's actually a kind of truth in it. Part of the allure of MMOs back in the day was that you could log into a game and socialize with thousands of other people, but the Internet has become such a constant fixture in people's lives that there's not much novelty left in that. I used to feel like I could log into Vana'diel and hang out with so-and-so and what's-his-face, but now with things like smart phones and Steam and social media, so-and-so and what's-his-face are right here on my screen right now; they're not a Mithra or a Taru Monk, they're two people I can talk to whenever I want. It just doesn't feel the same.

Limitations can do a lot to make something feel special, but when you have the ability to remove those limitations, you can't rationalize keeping them around anymore and, yet, removing them may actually destroy what you found so special about that thing.

I swear there's a small legion of FFXIV shillers on this board

Pretty much this. I loved MMOs but they are dead and never coming back.

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Basically all internet is now a big mmo, with a dangerous merge with real life withou the magic of nicknames and adventures in fantasy worlds

Darkfall was fucking garbage. I followed it since pre alpha and played in beta/launch era. I had some great times in the game but not because it was a good game. I knew the devs which made it doubly painful. Remember how shitty mobs were and how everything bigger than a goblin had to be glitch killed at launch? The devs were testing mob strength by teleporting in as skill maxed characters in full plate/r100 weapons and judging appropriate difficulty based on that. They also completely lied about skill caps which completely ruined balance and character diversity, the game absolutely needed skill caps, without them it became an even grindier piece of shit than WoW despite being marketed as a 'skill based' mmo.

It also had dupes and devcheating from day one. I remember PKing members of some faggot french clan in the first week and one of our guys looted hundreds of thousands of gold from them and a warhulk.

>some weeb garbage that is still being held back in terms of innovation because it was designed with the PS3 in mind

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I miss FFXI getting new content. Comfiest game ever. FFXIV has no soul compared to it.

>tfw you are still playing a MMO with some anons and having a great time
Based Dofus. If only the devs weren't so retarded

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>Why yes, I do unironically play BFA, how could you tell?

I legitimately don't know what that is. Battle for Azeroth?

I do remember basically every enemy in the game being absurdly strong, even low tier. The rest I guess I was just blissfully unaware of.

I don't know man.

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>Legitimately a good game
>Universal praise everywhere
>M-Must be shills!!
Yeah nah

It’s an extremely polished on rails theme park mmo
Everything feels safe, static and clean yet there is quality about that stuff
If you want a more open world experience you are too late since lineage, tibia, wow and rs are dead

>Is it really that good now?
Yes
>Good enough to start playing as a newbie?
No

Whats so good about FF14? Is it really mmo or just a lifeless gear threadmill?

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It's a fantastic adventure that any gamer will love, pick it up today!
(Sponsored message)

You don't fucking save MMORPGs by making a WoW reskin and making everyone play just it and nothing else.

Remember when tree of savior was gonna save the genre?
Then bless online?
I even remember age of Conan or gw2 being praised as wow killers
Why are so gullible bros
Why do we still cling to hope that the next game will be good when they all turn like shit

Is running a private server hard? My dream is setting up a local server of some comfy mostly solo-able MMO to keep it forever.

This is the problem, people who shill FF14 never explain why is it great because its just like every other "mmo".
Wake me up when someone makes mmo with decent world and no teleporting madness and looking for group tools that just instantly port you to instance.

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If you like JRPGS, it's that but with an online community, also it's a story driven game, meaning you have to complete all content in order to unlock areas and dungeons, it gets progressively better in all aspects.
It's not a game for everyone, what makes it good for me is just the amount of quality the game has, the boss presentation and music are excellent, gameplay is pretty fun once you find a job you are comfortable with.

It’s lifeless gear threadmill chat room simulator but it’s extremely polished and well done, take that as you will
If you enjoy retail wow, then XIV is a massive improvement but if you are the old school type of player, this probably isn’t the game for you

It's only good now, what he doesn't show you in the metacritic picture is how it went from bad to better to great to good to 9.1

40 days until you die, trannies
keep dilating

You should blame Minecraft Hunger Games Servers then, because that's who Fortnite owes its existence to.

I agree with this user, if you are a neet and want to no life a game 24/7 this is probably not for you. The way the game is designed is to allow players to play or do some other things once they have reached endgame, then sub back once the patch was released.
Endgame has a fair amount of things to you, but getting gear and farming is minimal unless you form a static and become a hardcore raider.

Shut the fuck up, retard.

...

Bend over, slut.

im going to redpill you on this game.

The levelling sucks until you are maybe high 40's. The quests suck, the overworld seems bland, the game is full of pedos, trannies, furries and weaboos. The gameplay sux until later levels because you have no skills.

But, if you can get to late 40s, the game will slowly start getting better... and better.. and a lot better. The gameplay gets really good, the story gets better and better (the new expansion is god tier), and you WILL enjoy it. Do not buy a skip, just power through the early levels so you understand the story and the context of everything.

This game requires an investment of your time to get into, which is not fair to ask for a consumer, but if you put in the time, the reward is more than worth the wait.

>FF14
>Not circled out
Ah pre ARR.

Those threads are always baiting me into posting the same testimonials that I've written here dozens of times. Here's the abridged version.

>PvP is the only content that really matters because it keeps players entertained indefinitely, PvE is pointless once beaten by the the hardcore players
>quality of life improvements kill games, you should never kill the opportunity for player socialization
>separating your playerbase by region is a mistake, not having Russians, Pinoys and BRs causing trouble kills all opportunity for conflict
>the more instanced content you have, the shittier your game is
>MMOs will only change once we find ways to make those games with a fraction of the budget that they require today

>PvE is pointless once beaten by the the hardcore players
This doesn't make any sense. This is like saying you should never play any shmup because someone's perfect 1cc'd it and holds the world record.

The really real reason?

MMOs and games in general are a massive time sink. WoW came out and like the shit fueld orgy this industry is, everyone had to have a WoW clone. Well when every single MMO out there is vying nail and tooth for your undivided attention not just from other MMOs but from other games and interests. It creates a massive over-saturation of games that are all vaguely similar.

>Game get better
In what way? Does the world stops being bland lifeless mess? Do the dungeons stop being hallways with 3 bosses? Or is just the skills you get?

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You sound like a whiny piece of shit, take your shit elsewhere.

Look, PvE exists because MMOs are fundamentally a game where you have character progression. Killing monsters and following a storyline is how you keep this wheel turning and modern MMOs are very good at it. What they fail at is giving players something to do with all the power your characters and account accumulate.

Grinding equipment in order to grind better equipment is only fun up to a certain point, players need a goal. Dominance, e-peen, frustrating other players, helping new players, or just becoming a bad ass in a virtual world like their favorite anime character. PvP is the way you achieve those things. It's infinite content that players never tire off. You just have to keep giving them reasons to be angry at each other so they never stop killing each other.

This is not armchair theory, it's how I kept my private servers running, and it is how developers before my time kept the game running.

>But, if you can get to late 40s, the game will slowly start getting better... and better.. and a lot better. The gameplay gets really good, the story gets better and better (the new expansion is god tier), and you WILL enjoy it. Do not buy a skip, just power through the early levels so you understand the story and the context of everything.
This is a lie. It's the same generic dogshit it was in the beginning, with the only difference being that you finally have a fucking rotation and worthwhile abilities. The game doesn't get better, it just gets less tedious running from A to B.

t. played the game since 2.0

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Answer the question.

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this guy knows

Fortnite and Warframe are already good enough MMOs, old style themepark MMOs are too archaic or too bogged down with cash shop shit among other problems

Warframe is the biggest fucking scam out there. You can't do shit unless you pay up or wait literal fucking days.

Twitch 12 year olds that describe everything as weebaoo have to go

Story gets better
music gets better
bosses get better
gameplay gets better
>Do the dungeons stop being hallways with 3 bosses
Compared to what?

Biggest problem with MMOs is normies stopped playing them, you need normies talking about random shit in town for these games to feel alive and now everyone just uses discord or other out of game comm channels.

>Compared to what?
Saying "No" would have been infinitely faster, and would have lent at least one piece of truth to your post.

see

>a good game
how is it actually worth playing compared to any number of generic grind treadmill mmos

I started about a month and a half ago. In shadowbringers now, loving it.

> EQ fags still seething
After all these years?

Have you found a way to implement PvP that doesn't involve combat?

>Tabula Rasa will save MMOs
Said nobody ever

WoW developers even admit this? where's the lie?

>Every MMO thread even if it's about a specific MMO with no ties to XIV becomes an XIV shill thread
It's honestly getting really tiring seeing the same shit spouted every fucking thread.

>gameplay gets better

Been playing since 1.0 and the gameplay doesn't really become better because you'll always end up doing the same thing over and over. There no random or surprising factor because you are doing the same script over and over. Sure you get a new expansion and go wow look at all these new things added but a week later its whatever.

I want to see you finish extreme Titania or Innocence.

>Do the dungeons stop being hallways with 3 bosses?
No. The game is formulaic as fuck in how content is formatted and released. It's predictable and boring at worst, but they're extremely consistent. WoW in my experience is an inconsistent rollercoaster of content releases in terms of volume and quality, I've preferred the unsurprising and safe route XIV is taking.

You'll notice the same thing with trials, it tends to be Learning first phase -> intermission usually with adds ending with boss ult -> last phase with combined mechanics from first learning phase. They've said they're trying to move away from that format though.

>Trying to act like XIV's content is difficult when it's been proven time and time again that it's not the content that is hard, but the sheer and utter retardation of the playerbase tripping over their own feet at every turn giving the illusion of difficulty

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WowW doesn't have hallways with bosses at the end? Bosses that don't follow specific gameplay mechanics?

It's because an expansion just came out. It'll calm down before WoW classic comes out, then you'll just have another flavor of faggotry in every MMO thread.

show tats

XIV is modern WoW done right and it's currently in the best expansion it's ever had
People are gonna be talking about it

Modern PvP is stale due to people expecting a near~50% winrate regardless of their skill level. Pretty much all games using matchmaking system based on skill are allowing even the plebbest of the pleb to achieve something close to 50% winrate (let's say 40%~ for the shitters maybe).

MMOs focused on PvP or RvR in the past however couldn't provide that. It was free for all. The geared players would face people with less powerful gear, skilled premade using voice chat would met the casual pick up groups, even PC hardware and internet line made a huge difference etc. That's how a good group of 8 in DAoC could easily defeat 3 to 4 full pickup groups. That's how an average pleb playing a stealth class (typical 1vs1 fights) would have a winrate of 10% at most and spend 95% of his evening travelling back and forth the area where people would fight or waiting for resurrection sickness to wear.

Today's modern player isn't willing to accept the above. Everyone believe that they should have as many chance to win than to lose even if they're shitter, everyone want a level playing field. And that's how you end up with boring PvP, like GW2 sPvP. Maps are becoming completely sterile because "muh balance". Gearing is either made pointless (gear equalization) or irrelevant. No more number advantage/disadvantage since that's controlled as well in typically closed battlefield etc. So you always end up with the same snore X vs X fights when before every single PvP fight was unique. You never knew if your group of 8 would face another group of 8, 16 or more, if those people were geared or not, if more adds would join the fight mid-battle, you had to constantly adapt.

You resort to meme images because you have no counter argument that would even come close to proving me wrong.
>XIV is modern WoW done right
Lying is a sin.

>You resort to meme images because you have no counter argument that would even come close to proving me wrong.
Still waiting for you to show me your clears

>BUT MY CATGIRLS
>THE ERPING WITH MY FELLOW TRANNIES MAKES THIS GAME 10/10

I didn't mean it that way, most of WoW's dungeons are just as formulaic now. That was more about how content is released in each game than how the raids and dungeons actually work.

The bosses are more varied in WoW though, yes. I think this is just creep from raid addons getting so good over the years though. When I watch current WoW raids it looks like constant mechanic vomit even with addon callouts while I can basically learn a whole fight in FFXIV from a stream, but I've also been away from WoW for ~3 years.

And now Snoy is going to kill it with their anti-tiddy and anti-lalafell policies.

no innovation

I'm enjoying Mabinogi

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Most people talking about the expansion isn't for the "amazing gameplay". They are talking about how enjoyable the story is because its written very well, that any one into RPGS would enjoy it.

>Small legion
user it's literally the second largest (potentially largest, since WoW no longer announces sub numbers) MMO on the market, why are you surprised that people like it?

git gud

Yeah I was in a top 10 ww raid group in everquest 1 from 1999-2003ish (quit after GOD) and I STRONGLY doubt that any of the content in 14 is even close to comparing to even mid tier raids back then. More polished, very likely. Harder? Show me some videos and I'll give you an opinion. Nothing in WoW was as hard to pull off as even the mid tier GOD content.

Tor, Tera, WOD and GW2 didn't save mmorpgs.

this happened

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Please read what you typed.

I've also played since 2.0 and I can say you're just being a contrarian, especially since theres an easily observable difference between new and old content. To say ShB content is on the same level of quality as ARR ousts you as little more than a jaded shitter who can't move on from a game he no longer enjoys. God knows the game could use less of the "played for 5000 hours maxed every class and complains theres nothing to do" types.

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Which is why the culture of those games needs to be rescued. Matchmaking is one of the quality of life things that kills games.

youtube.com/watch?v=eExW7-0MtCM
Well here's the most difficult one apparently

None of those things have been present in MMOs for decades, user. It's time for you to move on to a different genre, or look towards private servers.

But it's not financially viable today, the average modern consumer will not accept to be presented with difficulty or frustration while gaming. Especially if it's frustration that cannot be solved by swiping their credit cards. Games with unrestricted/FFA PvP cannot be mainstream anymore.

Get ready for the clairvoyance and retropsychokinesis CAPTCHAS
Botters BTFO

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Private servers exist.
Wurm online exists.

Lemme rephrase that.
Have you found a way to create player versus player conflict without ever resorting to the combat system?
Maybe in terms of wealth, property, or reputation where subterfuge, deceit, and theft are key and no one deals a single point of damage.

That brings us to the last part of my first post: MMOs can only be saved if we can start making them at a fraction of the cost. They are too expensive to make for you to take chances. WoW clones work so that's what they do.

People found what they liked, and their monetary support kept those games alive. Simple as that.

>Does the world stops being bland lifeless mess? Do the dungeons stop being hallways with 3 bosses?
I will ask you the question I ask everyone who complains about these, and I will continue to never get an actual answer; what would this change? You blindly seek features from older MMOs without understanding WHY those features existed, without understanding the mechanics and the ecosystem that surrounded them and gave them meaning. Threatening mobs only serve two purposes; to kill the player and to make travel dangerous. The second point is moot, as FF14 is designed around making travel fast as possible so nothing would change without first majorly overhauling the teleport/porter system. Killing the player only matters if death has consequence, so if the only thing it results in is a short loading screen followed by a teleport, whats the point? How is this better for the game? You'll tell yourself its to make things more engaging, but you know it's not. Things would play out identical to how they are now except you'd spend a little extra time teleporting for the few times a mob manages to kill you.

MMOs have all of that, see EVE Online for examples. It's not the only one either.

The thing is, MMOs are fundamentally action games so violence is always centric. I don't think that's a problem though. Lies, deceit, betrayal and deterrence are parts of any player-driven faction system but combat is always part of it.

I haven't played Tera regularly in about 6 years. What's it like now? Once in a while I'll get an urge to get back into it.

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UCoB is harder, but it doesn't really matter. Not the guy you're replying to, but both ultimates are just dance steps that any average raider in XIV would be capable of learning given enough time. The only difference between Ultimate and Savage is there's a lot more dance steps, they're a lot more punishing, and a little bit tighter.

Most people aren't playing XIV for hard raid content, to be fair.

>>MMOs can only be successful with pvp, this is not armchair theory
>He says as the second most popular MMO in the entire world has absolute dogshit pvp
???
Nobody cares about your dinky private server user.

40 days until we die of laughter when you realise people only played nostalrius cos it was free and nobody actually wants to pay a sub fee for classic wow

This post is everything wrong with video games. Why would you make content challenging if you can just give players the instant satisfaction that they crave?

Maybe because MMOs are social games that should give its playerbase reasons to play together and cooperate in order to progress?

That's a whole lot of words for a post that says literally nothing, user. Alls you said was
>The fights consist of things you have to do and anybody could learn them given a theoretically infinite amount of time
wow such insight!!!

FFXIV is becoming more single player as the time goes on. Having duty finders doesn't help at all because why try to form friendship with people online when you can just click a button and wait for a party to happen? 5.0 also added in trusts making it so you don't have to run with other players at all.

Brand name carries it, as does the ERP community in it. Is that what you want?

You cannot, it's impossible to run something like an MMO very profitably at a small scale. Profits from MMOs are coming from their large scale. A lot of jobs involved with maintaining the service are going to be needed regardless so having 25K or 300K players pretty much doesn't change anything when it comes to manpower. And over 50% of costs involved with making and running an MMO are wages.

And your posts are everything wrong with armchair developers, you have no idea how these systems work despite you so desperately craving them. The crux of FF14s success is realizing that not everything should everywhere and compartmentalizing things where they belong.

You came out 10 years ago and yet youre still the freshest faggot around

>Brand name carries it
That's why 1.0 did so well, and how 2.0 was an immediate roaring success, right? And how the game definitely didn't have to steadily build up it's player base over the course of every expansion (like how every game grows), right? Or did you mean to say
>It's only carried by brand name now that it goes against my narrative

"Quality of life" strikes again.

Then MMOs are doomed forever. There has to be a way to manage those games on a tighter budget. Or we can just accept that MMOs have naturally evolved into Looter Shooters.

That's about as cool as dinosaurs evolving into birds though.

turned into maplestory essentially, max level patch in late 2014 60-65, game was still alive from then till late 2016, pvp died, "Awakening" released killing pvp further, level cap and fishing introduced 65-70 in 2019, only hardcore pvers play the game now to grind and flex their e-peen on moongourd for top dps. it's maplestory bc its no longer about gear, its about skill advance, talent system, new jewelry which needs over 150-160 runs with average rng.

tl;dr its shit

It is brand name although I will admit that FF14 is much better than average. The fact a good studio in Japan is behind it already gives it a much better chance than the junk Korea pushes out by the dozens every year. If you're happy about it then I won't be the one to tell you otherwise. You will come to see the light on your own in given time.

>I legitimately don't know what that is
>Knows what it is

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Literally every last thing in every last video game stops being hard after enough practice. XIV's endgame content IS challenging, and if by chance you read guides before attempting endgame content then you are my proof.

The thing I understand is that not everything has to have a purpose. Organic worldbuilding is a lost art. I can only pity you if you cannot understand what it means.

Any MMO that can be cleared solo has no business calling itself an MMO. It's just a glorified JRPG with online features.

Except XI's cooldowns are so long that you could type your post, read my reply, and reply to me in the time it takes to have a chance to make another input.

oh man such scathing verbal witticisms. you guys. this hurts so much. i think im dying. you guys. the pain.

i hope this sarcasm isn't too subtle for you to comprehend, i tried to lay it on really thick.

I mean, Blackrock Depths is still in WoW unchanged and people now just bumrush Thaurissan. Loot hallways are just a natural consequence of how people want their dungeons.

Before even watching that video

>17 minutes
I guarantee it's easier. There were multiple encounters in EQ with average attempt times of 2 hours or more, many of which had the ability to one attack wipe your raid if you weren't paying attention.
>8 man
I guarantee it's easier. Coordinating between 8 people is very simple compared to EQ, where the absolute smallest raids were 24 man and the majority are 54. It just goes to show the difference in scale and ambition between old MMOs and new ones. Old ones were meant to be fully fledged digital worlds where you worked with tons of other players, most of whom you met in the game itself to accomplish epic goals. Nu-MMOs are full of small scale encounters and matchmade PVP.

As I watch more, it looks like they're cycling more abilities than you used to in EQ of course, but it's still just cycling. The movement is more polished than movement in EQ encounters but I guarantee EQ was harder there as well largely due to how buggy AOE radii could be. The game's pretty clearly not any more challenging to play on an individual basis and there is obviously much less challenge in terms of how punishing encounters are, how much coordination is needed and how much endurance is needed to complete them.

Cooldowns and skill rotations are some of the worst things to come to MMOs. You should be able to blow your entire SP right away and then be forced to deal with the consequences of it afterwards. Ragnarok style.

You need to learn to pace yourself and not be forced by some arbitrary cool down.

MMORPGs as we know them cannot be saved.

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First of all, MMos aren't dead. Here's what I've found in two decades of playing and watching the market.

First, monetization. In the good old days, you paid your subscription fee and -barring expansion packs, account services (transfers, character remake etc) and a few other things, you got ALL the content. Now, because developers listened to fucking Korea (the inventor of what we think of today as microtransactions and the "item mall) and later the mobile market, we get "Free2play" gametypes. The idea isn't a disaster necessarily - there was actually a time when games like Dungeons and Dragons Online and LOTRO had options for F2P /item mall play, OR you could subscribe and get EVERYTHING content related, including cosmetics!

But no, today they ruin it so that there are hundreds or thousands of dollars of often exclusive content, cosmetic or otherwise to buy, even if you already subscribe! That is really frustrating. Likewise, the whole thing about "its only cosmetic" is bullshit - cosmetic content is just as important as any other. Try a game where the uber-loot that drops from raids or high end PVP looks like level 1 rusty crap unless you spend $15 on "tomes of revealing",- players would lose their fucking mind even though its "only cosmetic" - a reason it isn't done. Every piece of "cosmetic" gear put on the store exclusively is one that can't be found in game via other means!

Oh and just for the record "carebearification" or whatever you call it did NOT ruin MMOs - in fact, the opposite has direct evidence of being ruinous. Listening to hardcore no-lifers or even just the top 10% - 1% of players for balance will ruin your game - WildStar is pretty much proof of this, and there are thousands of other examples. If you want your game to be a tiny ultra hardcore title that can survive on a tiny userbase, fine - there are room for niche. But pull that bullshit in a larger/general MMO it will fail. More to come..

There we go, all this anons are correct. FFXIV quality fights and bosses presentations are godlike and its the only thing the game is worth playing for, maybe the story as well if youre into that. Don't expect a open world and sandbox mmo though, FFXIV feels more like an lobby game.

what is the best business model for an MMO? I'd say subscription + game purchase + expansion packs + microtransactions
Keeps all the HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUES away.

That "pacing yourself" is called a skill rotation, even if it's not bound by cooldowns.

Would you rather developers increase subscription fees to stay afloat in an inflating economy and shrinking audience?

There needs to be a western MMO with a fuckload of money and talent behind it catered to world pvp and at that either clan or faction pvp

>No flying mounts
>No arena's, or at least reward based arenas or any kind of instanced PvP that incentives a gear grind and killing world pvp
>No cross server bullshit. The quintessential part of a MMO is the community aspect. If you run dungeons, raids, pvp, large scale pvp all cross server where is the relevance of your server anymore? How does your choice of server impact your gameplay experience at all when all of the above and even the open world is cross server?

Unfortunately the only studios attempting such a thing are pitifully small, garbage indie devs who couldn't make a standalone yet a MMO (darkfall, mortal, etc)

Make a western MMO with the amount of money and talent behind it that WoW or final fantasy had and it would be a commercial success. Maybe not the pop culture icon that everybody and their mom literally plays, but nobody 10 years ago would have presumed sandbox games, MOBA's and battle royale games all of which are comparatively punishing games would be adopted by the masses, even casuals.

Just imagine a semi-realistic engine, low-mid fantasy game where the endgame is other players in a massive open world with faction wide benefits for holding strategic places. You and 5 other bros deep behind enemy lines trying to sabotage key resources and assets of the enemy faction.

Warhammer despite the lack of direction and talent had the right principle, just terrible execution. I'm hoping at least Crowfall or the new DAoC will be good

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How subhuman skinner box rats want their dungeons. Treadmillfags and solofags are the two populations of players that developers should never listen to. Ironically, it was precisely those two populations that WoW targeted and it ended up destroying the genre.

To be fair, one might have said the same thing about EQ to UO since EQ targeted the carebears, but there was still validity to EQ's vision, it was just a PvE centric game unlike UO where all of the PvE content was mixed with PvP content when reds rolled up and corp por'd your ass while you were trying to farm liches or dragons with your boys. WoW was actually designed by treadmillfags from the EQ raid scene who weren't satisfied that EQ wasn't 100% catered to raiding.

TL;DR

Sounds like you want a game that only appeals to you. Which is by definition a bad game since it appeals to no-one else.

all MMO's have simple boring hotkey combat and grinding is 90% of what you end up doing instead of actually doing fun quests and content. Grinding is how MMO's fill their game with "content" that forces the player to waste time clicking inane shit instead getting right to the good stuff. All mmo's are jobs people willingly do, take out all the grinding and leveling of characters or gear and there almost isn't a game.

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Your fantastical game doesn't work in practice, what actually happens is either one faction controls everything or two factions are deadlocked with nothing happening.

No, I want a game that is appealing to human beings who want to be social in a social game rather than pursuing grinds or running around solo for what end I will never understand especially now that single player MMOs are all over the place.

WoW destroyed the social dynamic by letting people level up solo

I miss wildstar. The housing system is the best housing system put in gaming I ever seen. The setting and artstyle was great too. Shame the 6 button combat was shit and repetive. If it was atleast a 14 button combat system,It might have been fun. Champions online has the prefect amount of buttons at max lvl,16,not too much or not too many. For those who played WoW too much going from 40 ablities to 6 is too jarring. GW2 has the same problem in my eyes.

WoW and FFXIV are perhaps the best of the "big name" theme park MMOs, with many feeling that the latter is more enjoyable than the former these days.

I am still rather pissed about FFXIV monetization though. Subscription is great, but I hate that they went from the paid items being like 2 mounts (recolors of other ones and one other type), the fancy marriage ceremonies, account-stuff, and then inexpensive items from PAST in-game holidays. IT was a great compromise - you could earn them in game if you were there, but if you missed them, you could pay $1-3 or so etc.

Later, they started adding lots more stuff, Including emotes (including the sentai hero poses, dances, and other neat stuff), mounts, lots of new exclusive costumes/cosmetics etc.. dyes and more. What the fuck? Having to pay $8 for an emote or $15 for an outfit? Atop the fucking subscription? Come on now!

Yes oh my god yes! I've long supported this option. Look, the average MMO monthly feee has been around $10-15/month (with discounts for block time) since they started. Its okay to charge more for inflation and whatnot. I'd love an option to pay a bit more - maybe $25/month instead - and get all the cosmetics and other content on the item mall, save for things like account services or boosts. and NO, one of those "You get 500 Credits to use on the store as you wish hehe" rip offs is not sufficient when 500 credits rarely buys you a full set of cosmetic clothing! It must actually grant access to all the cosmetic and general content minus exclusions

Back in the early days of EverQuest there was actually a server they called "Legends" which got new content first and a special team of GMs doing live events, among other benefits - but it cost more like $20-40 (can't remember) a month instead.

All subscription mmos should raise sub prices if need be after this time, and/or allow an option for the "luxury" subscription atop it. Note however, that

So you want a game with no progression. Okay, good luck with that.

I want a game with horizontal progression, not vertical progression. Vertical progression is cancer and is functionally nothing more than a trap for neckbeards with no lives.

Why did darkfall have to die? It was so close to being good.

Horizontal progression is a dumb buzzword, there's always going to be best weapons and strategies.

I want an MMO where secrets matter. This cannot occur until we get a lock in interface that prevents metagaming. You enter the pod for three months at a time, if you leave your character dies.
Hard mode: If your character dies you die.

>cont

And abandon the notion that you're quintessential or some sort of divined hero within the plot, you're just a above average soldier/mage/etc in the war effort. Make everything of any sort of substantial reward require interaction and groups to complete, none of this glorified solo grinding.

>Make endgame PvE events or ridiculously strong open world bosses to encourage the factions to fight over them
>Make player crafted gear and items the absolute endgame of items, or at least on par with the gear from the highest level PvE, instead of WoW where the themepark PvE/instanced PvP grind is objectively the endgame and there's only a handful of placeholder pieces that crafters can create at an absurd cost

True, there's a bit of idealism in it, but on the inverse hoping to make the most automated, solo-friendly, depth-free themepark of a MMORPG is an absolute death sentence or at least relegated to being nothing more than a temporary niche while WoW is active.

There's no incentive in joining any of these new MMO's going for this formula and abandoning WoW where you have made countless social connections and dumped thousands of hours to jump ship to a new, less polished, more buggy, less balanced, smaller dev team with comparatively less content coming out while WoW is still present.

Maybe in my proposed game there could be a respective cap? If one faction exceeds more than a 10% population difference the dominant faction cant enlist any more new players. Of course that isn't ideal, but i imagine there's something mechanic wise or like Warhammer did that can mitigate this.

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Then play FFXIV and have your endgame be glamours. Because that sounds like the kind of stupid endgame you want.

> what are fighting games
> what are rts
> what are turn based strategy and card games
> what are shooters or racing games
there are tons of games that allow you to improve your skill without having to waste time doing menial shit to get a bigger number when you press your hotkey mindlessly, or grind for bigger pauldrons

Darkfall wasn't very close to being good, it had a ton of very, very big issues. Glitches out the ass, a massive grind even worse than level based games, broken mechanics, cities that were basically worthless to hold and core gameplay that was never really that good.

The only thing it did right was full loot and open PVP, even then the alignment system was fucked and after the first few months there wasn't a reason to not be a red at all.

>endgame
that's not horizontal progression my friend.

So, games that aren't RPGs. Good job retard.

Guild Wars 1
rip

I think game streaming is an abomination for everything except MMOs. Every MMO should be streaming only. That way it becomes impossible to Datamine content or run bots. After that you just need to kill multiboxing somehow.

>have an MMO
>have it be unpopular
>uh fuck just copy WoW and add more cutscenes! look we saved MMOs!

LMAO

This is not a problem. There is plenty of socialization in WoW, which brought more socializing and MMO play interest to the genre than ever before BECAUSE it allowed soloing and wasn't as punishing as what came before. If you want your MMO to thrive, you need to allow players to make meaningful progress by themselves. This doesn't mean all content needs to be done solo (ie dungeons and raids) but solo available content is very important.

People have rose colored glasses and remember the groups where they had fun, made new friends and the like... but they typically forget the various mechanical ones where the only "socialization" happening in a dungeon or raid was instructions or whatnot. If people aren't socializing thats on them, not the game. Conversely, look at the roleplay community in games like WoW and FFXIV. In WoW, there are people who go out of their way to just roleplay, even using specially created add-ons like TotalRP3 which is hugely in depth, to make their own fun with like minded folks. Some of it is perving out of course as we all know the Goldshire jokes, but there's also a guild that goes on "patrol" around stormwind in matching armor on event nights etc. The game isn't forcing them to do this, but they do it of their own accord.

This is another reason why all the "WAAAA Group/Raid finder is bad" cries are inaccurate and annoying - giving people an easier way to form a group or better yet be able to see a raid tuned to lesser skills and rewards, isn't a bad thing. Some of those people may not raid otherwise at all and miss that content, simply because they don't have a raiding guild. Likewise, all the old school manual ways of doing things are still there, and Normal / Mythic Raid difficulty levels provide greater reward and challenge for those who want it. These objections usually unveil the "exclusionists" who are the kind of "anyone less hardcore than me shouldn't even SEE this content" junk.

I mean yeah but then you're not really playing an MMORPG. The driving factor behind most MMO games is that the players want to acquire resources to get stronger and have to interact with each other to do that. The games you're talking about already exist.

Chronicles of Elyria but not a kickstarter scam.

except there are action rpg's that have you learn new skills to use instead of a level system where only the numbers go up. Think Absolver or Godhand with actual plot and story, and multiplayer elements.

>horizontal progression, not vertical

Oh my God this. I left FFXIV over this, pretty much. I knew it I would reach my breaking point, and it would never hit horizontal, but after the second expansion pack just going more vertical I knew it was over. I really enjoyed playing it, and the presentation is pretty damn good, but the gear treadmill is such a burnout. I wanted stuff of the same item level, but specced differently. What if I could be a SMN that focused more on DoT attacks, or one that focused more on the summons themselves? There was a time where you could equip STR accessories onto your WAR, and have yourself a different "build". They changed the way stats worked for different classes because of this. It was really upsetting.

I just wanted an expansion to actually change things. Give me skill trees. Make BLM elements matter. Let WHM focus more on healing or protection. Instead jobs just felt like different builds of the same class. PLD was the defense build of Tank, and WAR was the damage build. BLM was the burst damage build of Ranged Magic, and SMN was consistent damage. Even melee damage dealers were basically the same, hitting the same old rotation of attacks, but had their own debuff to apply.

Loved the game, but 3000 hours later I was just tired.

you could aquire new skills and abilities without the need for resources or flat stat increases

are you one of those people who defines RPG by whether or not you have a level grind? There were plenty of RPGs that lacked levels. UO and SWG were two examples, both limited and in SWG's case a deeply flawed game that ended up being easily broken and getting to the classic MMO trap of a new player being unable to harm an established player at all but both were games without a defined set 'endgame' goal. Both were fun to play for years.

FFXIV didn't save shit. It just became a better WoW than WoW.

If you take away the incentives to communicate with people then most people won't do it (especially while playing a game). This should be very obvious. It's why people like classic because it fosters an environment where people have to communicate, or at least heavily encouraged to, and that can be a fun unique experience. Why would you group up in modern WoW for a quest? You can do it by yourself and it's not very difficult.

Crowfall is coming and it should be good. They also managed to solve one major feature of PVP focused MMOs going to shit because of early-mover dominance.

Crowfall has for lack of a better word, "Seasons". There are whole different "campaign worlds" with different rules, and each one only lasts a period of time! When the time runs out so to speak there are winners and losers, but everyone gets to take the spoils from that Campaign World back to their Eternal Kingdom.

I'm a kickstarter backer of Crowfall, but this thread reminds me to check on the alpha again.

Ok but how do I get the best abilities smart guy?

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EVE is still the best MMO ever made that is still also alive, but you shouldn't play it.

begone zoomer

It's less that they copied nu-wow, it's that they copied nu-wow but actually did it right. Classes are actually fun to play and have a skill floor instead of being a simple priority list proc whack-a-mole across 3 to 5 buttons, and fight mechanics actually matter.

>tranny dress-up game
>saving MMOs

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If the progression is purely skill-based and there's no stats or leveling, it's not an RPG by definition. an RPG innately has at least some level of "vertical progression."

That's a pretty low bar for "communication", I think. Its pretty much just "You do X, I do Y etc..", is all that is required at most, and after users are aware of the encounter sometimes even that isn't necessary. You don't need to incentivize that, and it only means fostering tedium.

As I said before, real communication doesn't need incentive - like the roleplayers I discussed before. If you have to force them to grunt "sheep this one, I'll tank the X" , I don't see that as worthwhile to build you game around. The same could be said about people who want to remove the Auction House in favor of everyone just shouting constantly what they're selling and buying, but again the amount of low quality "socialization" comes at a HUGE cost to tedium and whatnot.

Monthly reminder that Camelot Unchained will save MMOs.

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retard

>Skill floor
>fight mechanics

Have you played the game lately? It's still an MMO. Pretty sure a retarded child could do all the content without breaking a sweat.

>Absolver
you'd have a point if not for the fact that everyone quickly found an unbeatable meta that required you to learn a very specific set of attacks just to be able to win at pvp.

This is peak revisionism or you didn't play vanilla, I can't tell

WoW did upgrade over vanilla substantially, there's no denying that and even the most militant of vanillafags would have to agree, but making literally everything cross-server has destroyed absolutely any notion of community the game has anymore.

I wouldn't even be opposed to a dungeon finder, if it was server only. But as of right now the players on your server (excluding if you play RP) are absolutely inconsequential to your playing experience, and it shouldn't be that way.

There's no faction resource fight, there's no people losing their shit when the horde finally win the unbalanced but epic shitfest that was Alterac Valley, with people leaving and joining org general chat to recruit more people and update everybody on the progress.

There's nobody organizing city raids anymore and bragging about it. There's no usual suspects you see anymore on your 1-lvlxx grind, of the same or different faction that you would run across randomly as you grind for weeks/months to hit the cap.

There's no longer that notorious rogue ganking in darkshire that your faction would send a search party out to kill.

Your friday night MC raid didn't turn into a full scale faction war when you ran into a dominant alliance raid group gathering at BRD.

For the past few expansions, you create your character and just sit in your capitol past level 10 joining cross server dungeons and BG's to hit the endgame cap, where the endgame consists of cross-server raids and BG's, unless you're the minority of players taking on the mythic and heroics and not just doing the arena crawl.

It's. Boring.

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questing/minigames/pvp challenges/ pve challenges/etc. As long as the core gameplay is slightly more demanding and involved than just pressing hotkeys and clicking on the something for x//number of hours. And it you wouldn't be getting the "best" abilities but different ones that actually serve more purpose than increased dps/time. Alternatively you could have all the skill unlocked from the get go and just have quests and tasks in increasing difficulty that requires you to actually play better and differently from when you start learning the game. The way you start playing an MMO is the way you end playing an MMO, there's no new concepts to learn and apply, just more hotkeys and health potions to pop.

It wasn't a good game, but the base concept was solid, the problem was the game was too simple and optimal meta was developed very quickly. New skills and balance adjustments would have to be during the support of the games life to keep things fresh and interesting.

Well generally you are with your group LONGER then in nu-WoW. Usually this time you'll start talking about random shit or other quests you have or something like that.

i.e. if you are clearing all the bosses in a long dungeon that might take hours and it might encourage a player to chat or try to get the same group to do another dungeon or quest you need done. You could possibly even see that person later.

In nu-WoW why the fuck would you talk to someone during a dungeon. It's easy. It takes a short amount of time and no coordination. You'll never see those players again. Hell, if a player messes up once you might as well just leave and find a different group.

Not saying classic turns everyone into a social butterfly but it does more for socializing between players then in most other MMOs that entirely focus on being a single player theme park movie that occasionally have other people walking around it.

This is in comparison to WoW you retard.

>Pretty sure a retarded child could do all the content without breaking a sweat.
join a learning party for either ex right now. run act and behold how wrong you are. though to be fair that's less a problem with the game's difficulty and more an issue with the average player.

What happened in Bless?

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>in
to*

I haven't backed it yet, but I spent a few hours researching both Crowfall and DAoC. My only fears is the studios are comparatively tiny and the engine/combat looks like ass even with the most recent videos, which could be dismissed as early alpha but since they're maybe a year from their planned release date, it's not looking too promising.

Regardless, im hoping its a success. I've backed star citizen for a meager 35$ back in like 2011 and haven't really followed it since like the whales or cult-like worshippers of Roberts, but I am hoping that is at least decent.

I just want one good sandbox/pvp MMO

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All MMOs are on the same level of retard child difficulty. I mean if you wanna say you have to press a whole 1 more button and maybe play another game of don't stand in the X is insanely difficult then...alright. I don't understand why you wouldn't just play a harder genre of games if that's what you are looking for.

neat knigga
Haven't heard of Camelot Unchained, though.

I do play on RP servers and always have.

Much of what you describe is less about the cross realm , but scale of game and focus

I do agree that dungeon/raid finder should have a "my server only" search/join option. That shouldn't be difficult for those who want, without impacting those who don't. You could also have a "battlegroup only".

People aren't focused on Alterac because there's other shit going on elsewhere, there's simply more to do and more rewarding stuff. Sure, people play, but every (I've not played much BFA) expansion has its "Big battleground location that is complex and only rallies every so often." In Lich King it was "Winter...something", for instance.

City Raids happen every so often at least on RP servers but its just for fun - there's a lot of other stuff to do and time spent elsewheer has bigger rewards. Consider that city raids become way more popular during Fire Festival etc.

A notorious character ganking is dependent on server type, but again people are off doing other things instead.

Faction war at BRD was something only on PVP servers . There are a lot of players who didn't want that experience even in vanilla.

I don't doubt there are some problems with the game but it has to do with growing pains and other things more than cross server.

>TFW will never get anally reemed by my ebf asmongoloid in the asmonlayer(it's true I his top donator)

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Wikis removed having to talk to people for information
Queues removed having to talk to people to group up
Solo MSQ/leveling removed having to talk to people to progress

Multiplayer elements in a 'Massively Multiplayer' game have been gutted as a result.

Waypoints and markers are another huge culprit, world design gets dumbed down when there is no worldquest design overlap either, because you can just take a map and slap some waypoints around and call it good. Quest writing has also dumbed down as a result, because there's no reason to create interesting and sensible dialogue when there is just an objective in your quest window.

I quit MMOs in like 2010, and came back to them last year to try to play FFXIV. It was tragic to play FFXIV after playing FFXI/RO/MS years ago. I literally didn't talk to a single person until I got to literally level 69 on the second to last SB dungeon, after literally hundreds of hours of playing because I had no reason to. The storyline was either pure cringe or genuine autism, and only had 3-4 quests that actually had any intrigue, in hundreds of hours of story.

By the time I got to raiding the raid culture is absolutely abysmal, you have to be purely optimal or you don't get an invite, and nobody is willing to teach other players or learn together, you just queue and wipe 3 times and quit. I wasn't even the one fucking up most of the time but every time, everyone just dipped out instead of trying to learn together.

The whole experience was actually heartbreaking.

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>All MMOs are on the same level of retard child difficulty
Wrong.
I don't argue with retards, sorry.

>Goes to do only the content for the build I want and refuse to engage with the rest of the game
>Uninstalls after 2 months

Nothing personell kid.

What's worse than a retarded child because they're playing my mmo atm

Name the most difficult thing in an MMO, or FFXIV if that's what you're defending so I can have a good laugh.

Too focused on skinner boxes and and micro transactions and not enough community building. Really would be easy to slap together the best MMO ever with barebones mechanics then pump a lot of effort into the community building but no one wants to do that.

Yeah, it is pretty meaningless, but it's just another way of saying the fights are extremely scripted like all FFXIV fights, they're just more punishing, mechanics are tighter, and there's more mechanics.

I'm not going to put down some autistic paragraph about specific mechanics, but general impressions: I do consider the fights hard next to my WoW experience, and I rate them similarly to end-tier Mythic bosses, though I quit early in Legion thanks to shit RNG so I have a little bit of a blind spot there and probably had a comparatively better group in WoW than I do in FFXIV.

Here's a timestamp for the phase with the most variance in UCoB and coincidentally, the only phase I actually enjoyed.
youtu.be/ls8BTDTmoqE?t=724

UWU was slightly easier and was a better fight for it because grinding heavily scripted like this is mind numbing.

>Unaesthetic visuals
>rehashed mythology
>generic fantasy
>totally clichéd great helm/plate armour combination

Crowfall has some good backing and finance, and DAOC isn't bad either (though smaller). The engine is like you said, still in development and alpha level, with some classes and races only added recently with first gen animations. It will never be ultra beautiful because it is meant to allow tons of functionality without getting bogged down - hundreds of players and their effects on the screen, destructible terrain and the like. Its cartoonish graphics actually can look pretty nice if you're using a good machine though

If you're interested, I have a couple of Crowfall old school pledge keys for sale, which come with additional benefits compared to more recent ones. I can pull up a throwaway email... give mea sec

I'm also a Star Citizen backer and if you want to test it, go ahead. 3.6 should come out soon and it is shaping up nicely. Ultimately, it may be the greatest MMO made to date by a large margin but it will take awhile to get there. Star Citizen is, so far, the closest thing to a "virtual world" in its design regarding detail and whatnot and if they implement it as planned, it will be pretty amazing.

Basically. People are just oversated with them, especially MMORPGS. Also most soulfull players who made these game even more awesome just started to have jobs in real life and shit and so they just can't spend that much time as they did. And of course their place was taken by future generations what are not the same.

I remember my first WoW raid what was Karahzan from TBC it was awesome and really I was excited. Then I made other TBC raids and I was WOOOOOW but later these raids didn't changed but for me raiding stopped being that awesome, they were just things I repeat over and over in order to get gear to show off, like work. Even when I moved to Wotlk, it gave a small sparkle but it was just 10-15% of excitation I got for first time (except ulduar, the lore and design actually gave me like 70% of excitation).

They problem with MMORPGS is fact that people who played them alot just don't feel that magic anymore what they felt where for example had felt in their first serious adventure in RuneScape or raid in WoW.

The casualisation of MMORPGS from the logical wiev is not a bad move, first mmorpg generation basically just have less time for video games so there is a big chance they won't play game where you have to spend alot of time with it.

The solution for MMO Is to make something totally new what can light that sparkle of excitation again. Maybe some neuralink vr mmorpg, something like in anime like SaO(but ofc without that brain frying part after getting your avatar killed)

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SCHLOP SCHLOP SCHLOP SCHLOP

You can look at method's twitch channel right now and get a good example.

>I do play on RP servers and always have.
This makes sense then, and it differs from the majority of players who primarily played on PvP or even PvE servers, but I understand your opinion now

>Much of what you describe is less about the cross realm , but scale of game and focus
>I don't doubt there are some problems with the game but it has to do with growing pains and other things more than cross server.
I realize what you're getting at, and I agree to an extent, like the some what necessity of making the game world cross server (this was unforgivable for me, on par with flying mounts in azeroth) but I can understand it, with the way WoW expansions were catered to the story and consequently raised level caps and introduced more leveling zones, and as such creating a new character from 3 expansions onward would seriously limit your chance of interaction with other players on smaller servers when your leveling experience is stretched across so many zones.

>I do agree that dungeon/raid finder should have a "my server only" search/join option. That shouldn't be difficult for those who want, without impacting those who don't. You could also have a "battlegroup only".
This as pragmatic as it sounds, is just idealism and futile in some low effort try to maintain community. Even people who dislike the principle of the cross server dungeon/bg/raid finder would still be relegated to using it since of course it wouldn't be the default setting and at that point you're just handicapping yourself not using it.

Different strokes I guess. I agree some of the "quality of life" changes were necessary in the PvE focused MMO that WoW is, with constant new zones and levels saturating and stretching the leveling experience, but there's no denying the game is absolutely void of community/server/faction pride and relevance and has become nothing more than a pseudo e-sport with people barely communicating. No server drama or fun, unless you're on RP

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I think it's very close to wow in difficulty. You don't get addons, and now bosses are starting to use "tells" instead of telegraphs, but you can res people in combat as long as you have the mp and the time/CD for it. In wow bosses are a little looser but you get addons that play an airhorn and a countdown whenever a boss is about to do something annoying or you're fucking up mechanics. Con is that you get maybe a couple combat rezzes depending on who you bring and they're on long cds. Wipes are decided early and often and you often cannot save the raid from a shit situation

>bunch of casters and healers not moving and pressing their fisher price ABC123 rotation while melee just runs around and avoids the giant circles

Did you mean a good example for me to laugh at or were you being serious?

Sure. I can't really game right now as my initial RTX 2070 I bought in november shit the bed, and the RMA replacement I got for it last week artifacted day one of use, so im currently without a working GPU, but I would definitely like to try crowfall

Can I make a cute catboy in FFXIV? I heard they don't let you make characters that look too young or small or something. But I hate being a big hulking person in MMOs.

They took the worst aspects of WoW and made them worse. MMOs before WoW were good because they were all unique.

>This is not a problem.
Yes it is

>There is plenty of socialization in WoW
There really isnt. In WoW you can socialize, but the form this takes is either with people you already know, intend to know, or degenerates in goldshire.
Before WoW, by forcing people to interact for long periods of time with strangers, mmo communities were developed.

>If you want your MMO to thrive, you need to allow players to make meaningful progress by themselves
This is false, this is in fact how you kill an mmo, and why every WoW clone ever has died. The only reason WoW hangs on (and it is dying) is nostalgia due to the large number of people who had WoW as their first mmo experience.

>People have rose colored glasses and remember the groups where they had fun
Those are the only things that made mmos successful. This was the one good thing about mmos, and WoW destroyed it.

>but they typically forget the various mechanical ones where the only "socialization" happening in a dungeon or raid was instructions or whatnot
These sorts of things tended to not happen before WoW because by the time you reached end game you generally knew how to play your class. Such mmos were about efficiency, not gimmicky mechanics, and really to imply that raiding based endgame model was even the norm at the time is misrepresenting things.

>If people aren't socializing thats on them, not the game.
Most people will act in the way that best rewards their efforts most of the time. If they are not socializing it is a game design problem. Players will respond to the game in a predictable way. If you do not force them to socialize, if you make playing solo actually more efficient in the vast majority of cases (as it is in WoW and its clones) then of course thats what players will do. It is not reasonable to say "why dont you socialize for fun even though that is less optimal?".

Society is shaped by its conditions. Where socializing is not the optimal path for advancement, will not be social.

It's significantly harder and more engaging than anything in WoW, which is the only point being argued here. Were you dropped on your head as a child?

But if you want to be retarded and argue about irrelevant bullshit nobody's talking about, new top-level content takes days to weeks for a world first clear to happen. That's irrelevant because that goes for both WoW and XIV and it's not representative of how engaging the core main gameplay is.

The point here is WoW DPS is pure solo 3 to 5 buttons with a braindead simple unchanging priority list, XIV rotations are ~15 buttons with loads of phases and optimization potential and party timing synergy. Between the two, which sounds more fun to you?

>Small
It’s huge and they all have massive cognitive dissonance.
>WoW story bad because your le chusun one!!!1 Xiv storygood!
>Xiv story you are the literal chosen one with a small army of followers
>WoW bad because it no social all queues!!! IT NO SOCIAL GAIM!!! They’ll add npcs to do dungeons!!!
>Literally all Xiv content is accessible via queues AND it has npcs (trusts and squadrons) in case you wanna do it solo

>I literally didn't talk to a single person until I got to literally level 69 on the second to last SB dungeon, after literally hundreds of hours of playing because I had no reason to.
the game isn't the problem. you're the problem. if you want to socialize so bad why are you looking for excuses to do so instead of just doing it? i made a bunch of friends in ffxiv back in 3.0 when somebody in a sophia ex learning party invited everyone to their discord voice channel for callouts and i'm still regularly playing the game with them to this day. i taught a bunch of sprouts about knockback prevention skills yesterday while helping them farm ARR primal mounts for fun. all of your complaints could be remedied if you just acted like the person you want everyone else to be.

>T. Floor tanking zoomer moron

Feel free to post clears. Oh you don't have any because you don't play mmos? Then you don't know WTF you're talking about you dumb fucking zoomer. KYS

Those of you who are looking for a melding of old school and new MMOs, check out some of the niche crowdfunded ones. I've already mentioned a few like Crowfall in development, but check out Shroud of the Avatar.

SotA is a niche MMO that is the spiritual successor to Ultima Online, built by the original Ultima creator/developers. SotA uses Unity and isn't the prettiest thing around, but if you like the roleplaying aspect or some old school stuff you'll find tons to like here. Most people who just want a WoW style treadmill with !'s above people's heads hate it, because its different.

Overall its skill based, with usage of each skill allowing level up and a talent-tree of sorts where points can be put into various things. There are some really neat mechanics such as you actually can TYPE to NPCs like it was in the old days ; you can also click on highlighted/underlined keywords in conversations too, but the system allows you to say... meet with a bartender who normally just talks about normal inn stuff and give him a secret code which opens up a whole new quest.

SotA has a phenomenal NON INSTANCED housing system. Each lot can have a house and other structures upon it, placed as you wish. You can also place furniture and other items in the game world - everything has some object presence. Want to hang a shield on the wall? You can! There are both "record player" items that let you listen to "wax cylinders" you find or buy in game, and there's even some steampunk-ish "Aether vibration amplifiers" that let you tune into Shoutcast/internet radio streams if you choose (there's a special radio station and fan run shows ). Many types of houses, and varying different lots!

Story is a big part of the game as well, with varying quests, Ultima style, where you have to make choices and they're remembered by NPC s and their factions.

Any questions? SotA gets an update about once a month with some new content and whatnot, too.

You can download the benchmark, it comes with the full character creator.

mmo is the only genre where you have people willing to pay to have other people play the game for them. that's everything wrong with the genre right there. no one actually plays mmos for fun. imagine if a patch broke all loot tables and there were no drops until it was fixed. would anyone still do raids? hell no.

Making proper MMOs take a lot of effort.
You need to make a large, handcrafted world
Create a lore and a story progression (which doesnt necessarily mean questlines)
Create a gameplay cycle and its intricacies
Create a loot table and endgame progression
And after all that, there is always the risk your game will bomb.
Thats why people today create instanced shit, Retail-WoW gameplay, and tiered raids that take no strategy.

Ragnarok pre-retail is, imho, the best MMO thanks to its large map and open ended progression.
Hell, even WoW vanilla is better than anything we have today, thats why people are hyped for Classic.

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yeah pretty much
i enjoyed playing nos but there's no fucking way i'm paying for classic let alone an acti-blizz run classic

>MUHR BUTTONS

Yikes! Glad it's just a tranny containment game

Let's hope Runescape Remastered is what we need.

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i've never seen a single person make those points to defend xiv

Ahh hope you get your GPU working soon. Message me at [email protected] and we can get you a Crowfall legacy key!

>but ofc without that brain frying part after getting your avatar killed
Git Gud, faggit

It's not about not wanting/trying to socialize, it's the game not encouraging socializing, and taking numerous steps to remove having to do so.

You were fortunate to get a group willing to communicate. I tried numerous times, people I got matched with almost never talked, and even then, they were on other servers and such so I never saw them again.

take a look at Runescape, City of Heroes, Tibia, Ultima Online, Meridian 59, Avalon the legend lives
All very unique games.
Ignoring glorified JRPGs / Korean grind simulators every modern MMORPG has been a WoW clone.

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>whacking mob sprites all day
Wow.. So cool and not just the 13 year old me talking. And you're not playing this now because... Retail? And what is it about retail that drastically changes the core of the game so much that it's a deal breaker because last time I checked, last year, the core idea of the game is still the same.

It's not a small amount, but they are fucking nuts. XIV shillers took over a Yea Forums comm I'm in and they are all the same. Ended up splitting the comm in two (it was for a very different game). I mean, it really feels like they are trying to sell you on some kind of cult or something. I played for a while (got to level 60 something-ish when I quit). I didn't enjoy it.

Basically that. It's just an endless gear grind for aesthetic pieces. "But the story is so great, user." It really isn't. It's filled with characters that I played for fucking hours upon hours with that I couldn't give a single fuck about. And the fact that ARR is still, after all this time, such a goddamn awful pile of shit. "B-but after it you get to the good story." I guess it's good if you like anime.

Bruh. It's always been like this. Expansion or no. The player base is cancer and act like it's gods gift to the world.

Retarded child here, can confirm.

so that's a no then, it keeps being a lifeless void with mindless zerg dungeons splattered about

>they were on other servers and such so I never saw them again
that's a fair point. i forgot back then pf wasn't cross server so everyone you did savage and ex with had to be on your server. honestly i wish they hadn't implemented some of the cross server shit. it's great for when you have a friend who's over on another server but not so much for people who like interacting with strangers.

>blaming the victim

>ask how the game is more interesting
>get a valid answer
>foam at the mouth with autism and start /pol/ buzzword shitposting
Concession accepted!

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The absolute state of Yea Forums posters these days.

Did ya think about joining a fc you daft cunt? I'm the least social person I know and I joined some random invite FC and I'm still playing with them today. We go on treasure hunts and do old content like diadem and shit. From a random FC invite. People don't talk in the duty finder because a) they have guilds b) THEY'RE DOING THE FUCKING DUTY
It's like you put less than the barest minimal effort into socialising and you want to blame the video games for it. Fuckin embarrassing my man.

"Forcing" people to "socialize" is a low quality interaction. If you dismiss people like I said who voluntarily interact, as "intend to know", then there's no point. Everyone forgets the tons of long, boring groups where there was little socialization with low quality besides basic compliance (ie game mechanics) or maybe if you're lucky courtesy "Thanks. BRB. AFK etc".

WoW clones died because WoW did it as well or better and people were already invested; many clones either had fatal design flaws or did not offer something different enough or just a gimmick, so people chose the more highly polished WoW. If your argument was true, then WoW would have died because EverQuest circa early 2000-ish had everything you describe including forced grouping and much more commitment of time required, but not only did many EQ players shift to WoW, it brought in TONS of players who would never have played a game with EQ's mechanics as described.

There's a reason that Socializing is separate from Achieving on the Bartle (et al) test - designing for achievement is a totally different thing. Some players have little interest in socializing-field options. There's a reason why some people will go to a RP server and spend an entire evening doing something that grants them ZERO game resources/mechanics because its fun, or choose to seek out outfits they fancy, where others want to be rewarded with hard game mechanics and wouldn't spend time doing something that didn't grant them.

Socializing is not part of advancement and development as if it was, especially a horrid quality definition of what counts as "socialization" being generally forcing people into tedious and time consuming situations on the hope they'll talk to each other beyond the minimum, is poor design and compromises the rest of your game's design too.

Casuals/going mainstream/investors/(((big money)))

All this FFXIV praise is dangerous because any game that tries to clone it is doomed to fail harder than any WoW clone did.
It's a glorified multiplayer JRPG soaked in WoW marinade, with a stale beginning and a narcoleptic endgame.

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Fucking this

magic goes away when you realize you're just playing a shitty RPG with thousands of other faggots doing their own bullshit somewhere else.
Neverending grind with a built-in chatroom to distract you from the dull gameplay seems like the kind of thing that should've died out by now.

>XIV is modern WoW
Yeah. It's fucking terrible.

>significantly harder and more engaging than anything in WoW

WoWfugee here, while yes the classes are more involved. There is nothing in XIV that comes close in terms of difficulty to your average mythic raid.

I'm including UwU in that assessment. Telegraphs are just far too obvious in xiv

mmo is dead for basically the same reason rts is dead. most of the people who played them moved on to other things that are better at whatever it was they liked about mmos, or at least more convenient. people who liked the social aspect moved on to social media and social games. people who liked pvp with tons of players moved on to pubg and fortnite. people who liked exploring have skyrim.

>b) THEY'RE DOING THE FUCKING DUTY
fucking this. i wish i could talk a lot more than i do in duties but this game has so many fucking buttons i never have time to type anything out.

Greed over player having fun

>serious, educated, logical response

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any mmo without wpvp and the ability to go dab on fags with your new gear is garbage.

the real reason wow got so popular is through meme fan viideos
youtube.com/watch?v=U2ofN0rqlxg

In fact, being asocial is being social in modern mmo.

In mmos of old, playing with other people was almost always to the benefit of all. It was a cooperative experience. You logged on, and looked for people to play with; People you know, people you did not know, you came to experience the entire community and integrated into the society because that was simply the method of playing the game.

In modern mmos, however, in most cases, when more than one person is playing togeather, if we are to take the advice of the idealists; "just socialize if you want to be social!", then one or more person is being taken advantage of. One or more person is being imposed upon, hassled, not actually doing what they are doing for their own satisfaction but out of a sense of obligation to retain the social relationships they are attempting to found.
The player knows this, because the player has experienced it themselves, they have been imposed upon, they have helped the friend even though they did not really want to, and so they realize when asking for others to do things with them, they are imposing. The polite, and proper thing then, is simply not to.

Why then would a player, who is able to do things at the same or even faster efficiency solo, even bother making social relationships at all? All it will bring them is maitenance of said relationships, at best they impose on and are imposed on equally, and everyone progressess at a slower pace, and at worse they are exploited. Clearly simply staying solo is the way modern mmos Want you to play them, the Correct way to play them based on their design.

It falls to the design then to reintroduce an environment and set of conditions where playing together is not imposing, but in fact the thing all parties involve gain from doing. In older mmos this was accomplished through grouping being all but mandatory to level. In such a set of conditions being social and polite involved making friends and socializing.

Yeah but the thing is he wants to be able to sit down between pulls, waiting for mp to regenerate, so people are forced to interact with him. Instead of joining a social guild because.. I don't know. I think this is a terminal case of nostalgia induced retardation.

We hate FF14 now?

You're starting from a place of terrible insecurity and game design isn't going to fix that.

>"Forcing" people to "socialize" is a low quality interaction.
All interactions are forced, even desires are driven by needs.
The MMO developer is constructing a world, and so if they want a social environment, they need to look at what made the real world and humans evolve into favoring social existence; the need to do so.

I have been playing mmos since 1997, i get the feeling you have never played anything prior to WoW. People always chatted in groups, some groups would last multiple days, with people dropping in and out over time. It was in fact the need to entertain ourselves while grinding that lead to mmo communities developing.

>forcing people into tedious and time consuming situations on the hope they'll talk to each other beyond the minimum
This is not a hope, this is historically demonstrable fact.

>forcing people into tedious and time consuming situations on the hope they'll talk to each other beyond the minimum
FFXIV added the exact "big open area with dangerous trash mobs that require you to group up just to get around the map" meme content everyone always pretends they want and it didn't increase inter-party socialization at all. All it really did was create an off-topic shitpost chatroom in the shout channel because people were bored out of their minds doing mindless mob grinding.

Form your own opinions brainlet

So that’s a yes.
I always knew Yea Forums was a wow board.

>i will absolutely not make friends unless the game forces me to
here's a good incentive for playing games with other people: because it's fun
if you disagree that's your problem, not the game's.

>insecurity
personal attacks are a waste of everyones time
you cant refute my reasoning because you have no reasoning apart from simply blaming individuals for the faults of the system.

If the current antisocial behavior in mmos is the fault of people, then suddenly, inexplicably, at some point in time in the last 15 years, everyone just went from being fully open to socialization to being cyber shut-ins. How do you account for this? What explanation, further, do you have for the people lamenting the loss of socialization? Did none of them actually participate in it? Are they, every one of them, simply pretending to have played mmos before this point where they too underwent instantaneous and dramatic reversals in their 'security'?

Yes, that cat is out of the bag now. It won't be going back in without a kickstarter like pantheon, assuming it drops before these "too good for guilds, muh organic socialising" boomers are shipped off to their retirement homes.

It's free up to some level, just try it. Your life is going to be miserable if you let Yea Forums decide what your opinion on everything is.

ill direct you to
just replace 'security' with 'having fun'

So you haven't even been here for a week, got it

But someone else already did you just made up some bullshit without anything to back it up as some kind of refutation. Did I hit a nerve, retard?

I'd take all my MoP buttons back if Blizzard would let me have them t b h.

devs can't force introverted people to become extroverted. most of the people who liked to socialize in old mmos were borderline normies who left for other social crap when it became available. the players that are left are introverts who don't want to be social and dramawhores you don't want to talk to.

>real communication doesn't need incentive
You could have a meaningful conversation. Or you could just redefine words and pretend you don't understand what's being said.

Or you could be a complete pseudo intellectual and pretend you have any insight at all into how and why people socialise while projecting your inner cuck.

>devs can't force introverted people to become extroverted.
The problem is not with the people. There is no change needed in the people, you only need them to exist within the correct conditions.

The people who died of exhaustion, lost their jobs, accidentally starved their children todeath, playing mmos of old were not 'normies'.

People are people and they are still around. We can very clearly see that older mmos required people to socialize to play them, and people socialized. Modern mmos do not require people to socialize to play them, and people do not socialize.
This is not a complicated thing, its quite clear what is occurring.

They are shitty grindfests by design,fuck mmos

By the way, Crowfall package fellow, my initial random mail box didn't have reply capability, so I sent you one from a different address.

This was a part of it indeed, but content like this is generated by a wide audience in something of a feedback loop - lots of people are playing the game and enjoying it, so they create content to highlight that made for other players (ie memes and whatnot), which brings more interest and gives the game a higher profile

If you want a social environment, you need to consider that in development. However, all the various types of play - from social to achieving to exploring (Bartle type) or even other kinds of breakdown (ie the role Crafting players for instance) isn't a single axis, nor is it linked to everything else in the game by mechanic. Socialization, especially high quality socialization, is something that can't be "forced", even less than other mechanics. You can put someone in a dungeon that takes 4 hours with 6 other people, and they can do nothing but speak the bare minimum for mechanic coordination and watch TV/browse sites on their other monitor if you put in lots of downtime.

Socialization needs are different and developers best serve them not by trying to force it, but rather provide the tools that allow for socialization to takeplace. For instance, in WoW the RP community used the addon API to create addons that enhanced their RP enjoyment in amazing ways. Designing cities to have open meeting spaces and whatnot, including things like restaurants, inns, and cafes. Player housing is another element. Of course, granular controls of chat channels, friends lists, and other features (ie "Here are the last 5 people who were in your party") can help too. Fostering the potential for social interaction does not have to mean implementing tedium or smashing people together.

old mmos required grouping to progress therefore the people that played and enjoyed those games enjoyed interacting with strangers. new mmos require less grouping or less manual group management therefore less-social players feel more comfortable playing new mmos. the newer games' systems being more enjoyable for the second demographic doesn't mean the first demographic has suddenly disappeared. mmos have moved away from harboring a playerbase where "everyone is social" but to say that "nobody is social" is simply untrue.

Just join a guild, you dumb Boomer. Whine more than women.

no, the point is that most of the people you played with who liked to socialize don't play mmos anymore. just try to think of the actual people you personally played with? how many of them still play any mmo? the people who died because they were poopsocking for 4 days straight were hardcore solo grinding, not chatting with their guilds on ventrilo. those are the people that still play mmos.

Again and again I've illustrated that this seems simplistic. EverQuest in the old days did everything you describe, and yet was overtaken by the more accessible WoW which did a lot less "forcing" them to socialize. Many players, notably roleplayers as a visible and significant group, go out of their way to socialize even without game mechanics specifically enticing/forcing etc.. them to do so to make progress in other avenues of the game.

You're looking at this as a very linear issue when it is multi dimensional.

BTFO

Uhh yeah it does because that's how it worked in the olden days when I was still a happy man. Gosh I wish I could go back..

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>What went so wrong with MMOs?
When retarded german publishers decided to fuck over Spellborn because their shitty 1:1 wow clone was fp2 trash.

It's a bogstandard wow clone. It's not an MMO.

>blatant samefagging
Embarrassing.

Holy Trinity. It's a cancer that prevents mmos from being good.

it's an mmo. it's just not the kind you personally enjoy.

>it's an mmo.
It's not.

explain

The players.

The fuck you on about?

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PvP is pointless because everyone dies eventually.

It's not in any way massive, and not in any meaningful way even a multiplayer game since it doesn't demand nor reward any level or form of coordination.

It's not a sandbox, grandpa. It's still a mmo.

I spend more time with the LFG tool then actual connection with players.
This is just bad game design, that's why people are hyped for wow classic, you didn't have that shit, but had to converse with people.

It didn't save shit. It's a simplistic as fuck themepark mmo that has very little in common with all the great oldschool mmos, it'd nothing more than a fucking fashion game with rpg stats slapped on to it.

This guy gets it

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>going through the trouble of editing screenshots cuz he got called out for samefagging his lame ass fedora tier retort

Kill yourself.

>editing screenshots
Jesus Christ, use 4chanX.

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retard

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I don't know about that, maybe not the genre as a whole because frankly mmos cost too much money to make well and you losers are stuck with eve, ultima shards, and the pantheon vapor ware until you're worm food. But maybe it'll help other themepark mmo publishers see that writing is important and if you're going to put it in and make it on rails asf, don't hire some retarded sjw fat bitch to write it.

>It's not in any way massive
depends on what you consider massive. 72-man frontlines are pretty big and eureka having 140 people was fairly massive imo.
>and not in any meaningful way even a multiplayer game since it doesn't demand nor reward any level or form of coordination
that's simply untrue. all dungeons trials and raids require you to group with other human players. this by default makes the game multiplayer regardless of your arbitrary standard of requiring coordination (which is needed to clear endgame savage and ex content anyway)

Oh, sorry, I gave you the benefit of the doubt because only a samefag would give a literal Internet updoot to something that fucking cringey. Grats on being a fucking faggot I guess.

Guilds are one of the things destroying mmos. They are now third parties, that exist socially not within the mmo but exterior to it, with the mmo being a sort of minigame they participate in time to time.

In the old days, you joined guilds with people you played with for considerable lengths of time. Now, you join a guild of strangers as a first step.

>hardcore solo grinding
You could not solo grind. Vent was not invented yet. In fact voice communication is a minor contributing factor to the problem, its more energy consuming to use your voice and listening to different qualities and bitraits of audio taxes your brain. You would not be able to grind as long chatting with voip as opposed to text.

EQ had several flaws, its engame among them.
WoW was popular because it was slick and attracted a huge amount of first time mmo players.
UO, EQ, and WoW were most noticeable for their progressively larger advertising campaign, and owe most of their success to said advertising and first-time mmo players, not their design qualities at all. I tend to not like to use them when analyzing mmo history because they are corrupted by the first timer phenomena.

socialization =/= mmo

>t.zoomer

Yeah, guilds exist as third party socialisation for a reason, as pointed out by someone else in this thread that you haven't addressed at all.

>require you to group with other human players
*get grouped up
and no, there's no coordination after that. You do whatever your class does and that's the end of that. You're not optimizing squat by coordinating, and you're not picking up the slack if someone fucks up theirs. There simply is no multiplayer component, they might as well be trusts.

>You're not optimizing squat by coordinating, and you're not picking up the slack if someone fucks up theirs
that's not true at all. don't make shit up when you've clearly not even been to endgame.

>In the old days, you joined guilds with people you played with for considerable lengths of time. Now, you join a guild of strangers as a first step

Oh FUCK off, this is getting absolutely ridiculous and screams of "i can't go back". There is nothing wrong with that other than it loses a little of its organic appeal. This is the worst Boomer nitpick I have ever seen. What a fucking malcontent. I hope pantheon is a scam and I hope you kill yourself because of it.

Mobile games make more money, cost nothing and are insanely popular.

You're supposed to be doing as much DPS as the tank's aggro can allow. You can't do more DPS to make up for some other person underperforming.
That's now how holy trinity works.

You are fucking retarded.

Also cant believe it took me this long to resize a gif. I need to reconfigure sharex to capture optimized webm.

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garbage genre that relies on turning players into subhumans who aren't able to play videogames and lead a healthy lifestyle at the same time.

the entire gameplay is grinding while chatting with friends and only the second part of that is good.

huh... didn't record any of my (You)s. Strange.

That's another thing, the game's so fucking trivial that you had to import the fucking speedrunning autism to have any sense of achievement.

It's an obvious and direct consequence of the casual, solo-focused design of current day "mmo"s.

XIV is the most polished version of a modern mmo and i enjoy it, but i really wish there was something out there that had the same feeling of freeform adventure of older mmos
i hate how the genre has changed towards accessibility and making sure everyone gets what they're 'entitled' to

there's plenty of optimizations i make as a tank for my party that help optimize everyone's dps from boss placement to defensive party buffs. i often have to handle dps mechanics when somebody dies in order to keep the party alive as well. maybe if you're a dps all you do is dodge aoes and do your rotation but tanks and healers have a lot of party synergy and coordination going on that helps everyone do their job better.

>notice DPS isn't doing their job and are underperforming
>sprinkle in some damage moves
Not much of a multiplayer aspect to this, you could easily be playing with bots and it would be the exact same.

>sprinkle in some damage moves
try reading the post before replying

Freeform adventure doesn't necessarily have to be at odds with accessibility. For instance, EQ for its time -and even since - had wonderful zone layouts/features and a great sense of scale, and its Faction system was neat. That could exist just as well if the game was not designed with a lot of the grindy/punishing/tedious mechanics (hell levels, corpse runs, XP loss to the point of deleveling, etc)

I suggest you check out Shroud of the Avatar. There are other games in development (Chronicles of Elyria, Pantheon, Crowfall) that are trying to do something a bit different, bot Shroud is available now. If you liked the old Ultima games (and Ultima Online), its a 3D spiritual sequel with some great mechanics and other elements. Also, that "adventure", you may find in Star Citizen. Even now in testing there's a good sense of scale and tons of lore/feeling/soul for each planet/station/location you can visit even at its early stage of development. It isn't near finished yet, but it has been making great progress.

Though Shroud may give you some of those old school feelings of adventure :D

>all these FF14 faggots
Here I will break it down for you retards that want to try the game
>FF14 has a great story XD
It's better than 15 or 13 for story. Still holds no candle to SWTOR in terms of story. But no the story is not amazing. It's just okay for an mmo. D playing an mmo for the story is beyond fucking retarded.
>Its better than all mmos
First off the FF14 players are already starved for content. They. Now dick suck the creator saying, "if there is nothing to do it is okay to unsub". The faggots preach this from the rooftops thinking it's okay...
>gear
The game has the most boring gear than any mmo on the market. Wow, gw2, and even Eso does gear better. It's literally designed for retards and thr most casual mmo experience. There is zero player choice and it's a full on roller coaster for retards
>no there isn't spergs on "this" server they are on "X" server
Truth is the playerbase Consist on emotional unsyable people. This is normally fine as they exist in all mmos. However FF14 doesn't have servers for all the faggots to go. They are just all over the fucking place. Imagine moonguard on wow but the people are on every fucking server instead. That is FF14. There is no fucking filter like other mmos.

Also thr retards playing as I said are bored out of their mind. Some of the people with an IQ above 70 have realized this and noticed it's the worst expansion created in turns of content to do. FF14 was heavily Marketed all over the world such as the KFC shit, none stop twitch ads, the Amazon advertising, etc. It almost has the same level of advertising as WOD. And we all know why that is. Don't play the game it's a fucking trap. If you want to play an mmo for story play SWTOR for free you fucking moron. The best content in SWTOR is free!

Why would I read a post from someone who thinks modern WoW is a deep complex game with mandatory communication and complex coordination between players?
You literally do your job. It's assembly work. Do you think assembly workers understand much that goes on in their factory? All they know is to slap the parts together and try to correct for mistakes someone earlier down the line made.
Holy Trinity is essentially that.

>I don't know why I thought it released in 2011/2012 and didn't have a battle royale mode until after PUBG did it '17/'18
>saying this sarcastically
>be wrong

>Shroud of the Avatar.
Lmao

>someone who thinks modern WoW is a deep complex game with mandatory communication and complex coordination between players?
i never said any of that. you said FFXIV isn't multiplayer which is factually incorrect. no clue why you're bringing up WoW now.

Lets not pin it all on the trinity when half is just devs chasing the casual audience. You can still have mechanics that demand coordination, and synergies that reward it. It's not an intrinsic fault of the trinity that advanced maneuvers such as "don't hit the fucking sheep you cuntnugget" is beyond modern "mmo" players.

That wasn't me. I was just chiming in to remind you that modern MMO holy trinity gameplay isn't a deeply complex team effort, especially because it has to be made easier for the average retarded player like what mentioned.
You do your job, you smash your rotations, you stay the fuck out of the red lights, and you don't break CCs. Sometimes there are gimmicks thrown in like adds that will instantly wipe everyone if they aren't killed a certain way, but beyond that it's mostly a game of
>can you get 40 headless chickens to not horribly fuck up

Lets not pretend "vanilla" WoW was any better. Encounters back then were often far more simple, but the difficulty was getting 40 assholes to pay attention vs 10-25 etc. I haven't played BFA, but in Legion the actual encounters in Mythic level dungeons or especially Raids, had bosses that required you to pay attention beyond simply doing your job (ie tank, damage etc)

The boss mechanics have gotten much more complex, with each boss and phase thereof having multiple when it comes to raids. Now on the Raid Finder difficulty the level of skill is not as high and things are more lax as they should be, but on Normal and higher the mechanics in recent WoW were typically more comprehensive vs early WoW.

you're right and i agree with you but that still has nothing to do with the point i was arguing.

>these FF14 players every fucking thread
>just copy paste "it's the best with amazing story please buy now!"
These faggots really need to kill themselves

>"it's the best with amazing story please buy now!"
But for that to happen you have to play over 200h to reach the latest expansion :)

>simple
>complex
heh

>tfw my favorite MMO was maplestory
>tfw i loved it so much because of all the gorgeous art, the nice as hell UI, the autistic customization, all of it
>tfw i even loved grinding because seeing the flashy skill effects, torrent of numbers, and explosion of items satisfied my autism in a way no other game has to date
>tfw it's basically dead
>tfw i got accepted into the maplestory 2 beta
>tfw it was total fucking garbage
When are we going to get another MMO as fun as MS?

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Even if you reach the expansion and do the story the games content is so fucking shit. The only good side of the new expansion is the story. Everything else is worse.

what went wrong is FFXI was literally the perfect definition of everything good about an MMO and not only did everyone ignore it, but their own developers shot it in the kneecaps before FFXIV came out to try and make people move to that fucking abortion of a release.

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WoWfaggots ruined everything

>Warhammer: Age of Reckoning
The memories are still fresh guys... Objects in the rear view mirror...

>>Warhammer: Age of Reckoning
>Engine used: Gamebryo
Yeah any mmo with that turd engine failed except dark age of camelot.

When did MMOs lose their soul?

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When people started realizing grinding 30 hours a day for a drop was retarded.

all i got from that post is
>PLEASE PLAY SWTOR WITH ME I'M SO LONELY NOO STOP PLAYING THE POPULAR GAMES PLEASE PLEASE

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>playing an mmo for the story is beyond fucking retarded.
Why?

We get it tso was a fuckin banger but not everything is going to be as fun as gunning down ghosts as a Templar

after wotlk

But they still do that. Worse yet, they grind 30 hours a day to incrementally upgrade that drop in practically meaningless ways.

because true mmo players play MMOs to automate a bot to mine stone for 300 hours to level strength and then claim online that modern MMOs lost their 'soul' decades ago when they transitioned from 2D to 3D

yeah wrath was so fucking bad, jesus

I played XI, but it was basically from the pre-WoW era of being grindy and offputting to most. . Non instanced mob spawn camping, very time consuming and grindy, a very high level of time investment required to see content etc..

While FFXIV had a rough launch, it - at least by ARR 2.0 - was a MUCH better game overall.

NO one in thread is saying wow is good. Thread is full of FF14 faggots treating it like a religion.

shadowbringers is the best a FF story has gotten since the late 90s. and i say this as a person who hated ffxiv since 3.3

>Fortnite is older than most of the games on that list

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The problem is that every game that innovated couldn't beat the network value of WoW, and none of the publishers wanted to put in the work to sustain a game long enough to get the kinks worked out.

Only thing different from XIV and the dozens of other WoW competitors is that Square kept at it instead of throwing it into maintenance mode after a year.

>"man i miss x"
>just play it then
>"uhhh no its dead i have to move on and bitch in every single dicussion"
>official servers still have thousands of people
>look at private servers, 2k+ each server

beggars can't be choosers, either enjoy your time or quit being a bitch about the past. MMOs will never be fixed, deal with it

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I could never get into this game and I've tried so many times

Trivialy easy leveling
Endless fetch quests
Endless cutscenes
Linear dungeons
Linear leveling path in which you just follow the story

Yawn

I'm honestly thinking about getting back into MS. It's the only game in which it actually feels justifiable to grind because of how great of a game it is.

play ragnarok, the superior game

>thinking it's just playercount that matters
There are more factors than just that, like how much of the game has been discovered leading to metas, how knowledged on the game the average player is meaning you can't just experience the game blindly with other people, and just generally the kind of people who bother playing a dead game being different than people who'd play it while it was still new or alive.

nice rose tinted goggles bro. if the meta and database situation disappeared you would all be pissed off and quit immediately

I'll never play on your shitty metagaming private server, keep crying about it. It's not the same and it will never be the same

feel free to keep feeling like a piece of shit then because muh nostalgia then

You're projecting pretty hard here. I'm glad it happened, and I'm not pathetic enough to keep playing like you when it's clearly not the same. Your shitty private servers will never capture what it was like then

While Ragnarok was good, it doesn't capture the same feel that MS does.

but you are pathetic enough to try new hits like fortnite and ms2. cope

Only one of those I played was WAR and there the problem was that they released it in a half finished state with tons of content missing. And the content that was in the game was kinda shit - raids were just gear checks, PvP invasions were unplayable because the servers shat themselves whenever you had more than a couple dozen people in the same place so instead you just circled domination points day in day out.

When internet became a normal everyday thing.

What happened did Aerith died in the story mode in this game? That's literally ball it takes for people to overrated a game like this.

>All these WoW madlads replying in sheer rage

Good job user keep it up

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You know what. You've changed my mind, user. I'm getting back into Maplestory.

I have to admit I was wrong.
I genuinely thought that WoW classic will be a hit on launch and die after 3 months when the hype and nostalgia wear off.
Now I think there's no chance it will even lift off the ground. Dead in a month. Stay mad, WoWfags.

1) Addiction. Who would have thought that fatso losers would literally throw money at MMO devs just to get ahead of their peers?
2) For a MMO to be truly immersive and dynamic it needs to delegate a lot to the players, but not everyone has the time or will to invest in a single game nowadays, and the ones that do are the worst kind of players (streamers, neets, teenagers, etc);
3) The strive for realistic graphics made the whole game industry substancially more expensive. For the MMO industry it was even worse, because MMOs are already complex and expensive as hell. The cost and time to make a MMO is absurd, so it is a really risky investment, making the barriers to entry high as hell and innovation too risky to try;
4) MMOs are kind of like social media: the number of users matters to individual demand. Since most players will stick to only one or two MMOs, there is no space in the market for many MMOs. For each niche, the winner will take it all. And once players are too invested, it'll be really hard for everyone to switch to any other competitor.

FFXIV just copied the standard and happened to be successful. It did absolutely nothing to crawl out from the desolate pit MMOs are in, it just hopped into the pit and made a home there.

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> Start a FF14 free trial because WoW just cannot stop sucking dicks and people here have been shilling the shit out of it
> Roll a bald male human fighter or warrior or whatever its called named John Macclane
> The very first words anyone speaks to me in game is "You're cute!"
> uninstall

MMOs are fucking dead. I wish ill on blizzard and anyone who has ever worked for them for what they did to the MMO market.

If you're losing a pingpong match against someone and they completely shit themselves then fall over dead, then you just keep scoring while they're spazzing out on the ground struggling to stay alive, did you really beat them?

Glorious victory.

When I played WoW for the first time in like 2006, my first interaction with another player (aside from fighting over mob spawns in Northshire) was a bald-ass gnome RP walking up to me while picking up a quest in Goldshire, trading me one of those bouquets of flowers that goes in your offhand, then /blushing.

My technique was so great that my opponent's body instinctually knew to give up on life immediately

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It would be a more apt analogy if you were playing ping pong and were down 0-10 and it was match number 3 then your opponent got bored of ping pong so he pulled out a gas can poured it all over you, himself and everyone in the room then pulled out a match and lit it.

it's not really true, I played both games, and they were both fun, and targeted at separate groups. no one expected wow to be as successful as it is.

Hes not wrong. The game needs an overhaul now that the PS3 version is discontinued.

if he has more points by the end yes he did beat them, retard

congrats, you beat a dead man, what a fucking accomplishment
>ffxivfags in a nutshell

(you)

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thanks

the golden age of mmos happened when open world games and online gaming where still a novelty, so people got excited at the thought of combining these two concepts together. Now there is no novelty nor mystery around this. We already know the problems and limits of filling a open world map with actual players. That mystery is gone, so newcomers simply look at this attempt and asks "what's the point of all this?"

If you want pvp, you can skip directly to endgame content with mobas. If you want PvE, just play some of the many open world games.
The only ones that still care about MMOs are boomers that can't get over the fact they're not teenagers with lots of free time anymore and they'll never again feel that excitement at the playing a MMO for the first time.

>of playing

I care about MMOs still because I want MMOs that play out like a tabletop session. GMs control the world+narrative and each world is eventually 'finished' and you move on to a new session, maybe starting a sequel to a previous one. Neverwinter is the only one that touched on this.

too much work to work, also mmobabies would cry nonstop if they cant keep their progress

Mmos fucking suck, they were okay a decade ago. Its time to let go

I know. It's something that might only be possible in another 20 years. It doesn't need to hit millions of players to work in game, but you'd never be able to get a group of people to work on a game like this.
AI-developed video games and richfags funding a passion project are my only hope

I fell for the aggressive Shadowbringers shilling on Yea Forums and bought FF14 about a week ago.

I do not regret my decision one bit, even though I am currently in the post-ARR hell segment. The Crystal Tower quests are pretty interesting.

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>It doesn't need to hit millions of players to work in game, but you'd never be able to get a group of people to work on a game like this.
I miss the days when 200k players was record breaking, but wow had to come along and blow up everyone's expectations

richfags funding a passion project usually end up underestimating the costs and run out of budget after delaying the game for 3+ years. Look at what happened to CoE, for example.

XIV is a genuinely good MMO, with developers who listen and give a shit about their community. Reasonable QOL requests are listened to, they interact with fans regularly, don't have a shitty RMT system like WoW Tokens, end game content is great and the story is second to none.

I don't even understand why people care so much about that, other than obvious social herd instinct. How often do you even see more than 100 players on screen at once? Maybe a few battlegrounds or expansion events in the major cities, but that's about it. People act like 200k is unplayable for an mmo

>an actual SWTOR shill
What the fuck?

It's not 'hard' if you know what you're doing and are prepared. but its not exactly a simple matter. You'll have to have bandwidth first and formost, and a computer to run the server on. If you want decent up-time you'll have to deal with the power-bill associated with that.
Then in terms of actually getting it all working, you'll need some cleaver server side code running, as well as the game itself running with all the correct shit.

It's not something your average joe can really do.

WOW is the tranny MMO, you fags cut off your dicks a long time ago.

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I got SWTOR when it came out and it was surprisingly ok. One of those "might have actually been a good video game if it was a singleplayer/coop game" type of MMOs. It was released right around the time Bioware fell off the fucking deep end, which means it was in development BEFORE that, so a fair bit of the story content is pretty good (depending on the class you pick).

needs more buzzwords, throw in cucks, kino, incel and dilate.

FFXIV is the only MMO where I've actually seen multiple LBGTQ guilds recruiting on one server.

>Still holds no candle to SWTOR in terms of story
But thats wrong, Where ffxiv only improves Swtor just keeps falling and falling.
>I got SWTOR when it came out and it was surprisingly ok
Wish it improved, they just cut out the characters everyone loved and some still haven't returned.

Stop playing on Fairy

why are classicfags so bitter now?

>FFXIV has a server literally named "Fairy"
jesus christ you can't make this shit up

until death

Ffxiv is goat what are you saying

wowfags are on a rampage after the hype of classic already died before it even came out

The first MMO to properly utilize VR once it's less pricey and less shit, is going to be huge.

Guild Wars 2 was a fucking travesty, and Guild Wars was the only MMO worthwhile

so ye there you go

gw1 sucks shit lmao

>normalfags have weak motionsickness genes
It'll never take off

I thought the hype was still ongoing?

Not really, the WE'RE GOING HOME threads have dwindled to nothing and everyone is already moaning how Vanilla wasn't that great anyway

How is it maplestory? It's black desert you dumb shit.

I wish just regular-ass first person cameras took off in MMOs. Vastly more immersive when you aren't looking down from a chopper.

is it bad that i feel bad for them?

MMORPGS are inherently trash.

1) Multiplayer doesn't work with proper roleplaying. They conflict too much, because our competitive nature insists we always focus on what's the most optimal efficient way to play the game, rather than doing things suboptimally, but for roleplaying purposes. In singleplayer games this doesn't matter anywhere near as much because you're not trying to compete with anyone.

2) Subscription models result in games designed as skinner boxes in order to keep players coming back over and over again, both because the devs want more subscription fees being paid, as well as because the more people continuing to play the game, the more valuable the game is because other people want to play the MMO with a large userbase.

3) Because of the above two reasons, MMO game design is always lazy trash. It's always "go trudge through this dungeon for +10 ebin loot" or "go collect 20 bear cocks for me". There are never really any RPG-style quests, because that would just get in the way of the skinnerbox and of the metagaming. And because in an MMO, devs need to constantly be adding new content to keep people playing and paying, and these sort of low-tier quest designs are the easiest to shit out en masse.

WE
FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

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>gamers
Please dont use the G-word

Hit the nail on the head

fucking finally. I've been waiting for this edit since the day that trailer dropped. Now we just need an exodia one.

t. i have no taste

youtube.com/watch?v=4tyuIh12_HU

Could WOW ever have a trailer this kino?

>Guild Wars was the only MMO worthwhile
At its time, it was, but games like UO or even Tibia were amazing world to explore.

FUCK CASUAL COMPFAGS
IS THERE ANY GAME THEY DON'T DESTROY?

But it's not MMO? It's a single player game with forced online subscription and optional multiplayer content

So just like wow?

so an MMO then

of course it does otherwise people wouldn't be telling blizzard to make movies.
WotLK had arthas resurrect a dead dragon.
Just lately we get hit or miss trailers
youtube.com/watch?v=TVp7yLfnmrE

Just like Monster Hunter and their clones
Nope

not that many people willing to spend 200 hours in some game for it to start getting good

those are called zoomers

based WoW is garbage

You don't know how to play mmos if you're not having fun in the beginning.

settle down, ok?

While I do agree, there really are some mmo's out there that take awhile to open up but most companies, by then, just give out max level items for easy to each max level.

If it's any consolation prize, the company got the game in a very good place gameplay+balance+etc. wise after 8 years at the end of their Unholy Wars remake. Too bad they went bankrupt shortly after and sold the rights to two other faggot companies to remake the old version (which no one played and one of them already went bankrupt). Darkfall was ran by a team of fucking retards but completely 100% action combat + 1 contiguous, uninstanced world + full loot pvp was never done before and that's really all that made the game attractive to anyone.

Pandering to raidfags who want a second job instead of a fun videogame.

Networking limitations imposed by politics, greed, infrastructure stagnated the genre and what can be possible in online gaming in general.
In addition to all of the valid points itt the networking and sync issues need to be solved before any developer can make the next big innovation close to a ready player one experience. That means fiber to every house, and maybe quantum internet backbone. Instead society focus’ on who cut who’s penis off, rather than fixing the shit we have. So until the political will to fix and speed up the internet, and access to everyone gets fixed, you can have a mmo where NPCs are obsolete, because you can’t currently sync a world where players can have/create jobs in game and go out in the world and interact in such unlimited ways.

Sure you just need a AAA company willing to work on a game out of sheer passion at a huge financial loss year over year. You need employees that are willing to pay their employer a salary in order to sell themselves into slavery just to code the game.

Good luck in your coma, the game you seek shall be delivered on the thousandth thousandth year and it shall come upon a pale mare.

The main villain is a man who just wants his home back. People eat that shit up.

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>Ultima Online is the most ambitious mmorpg
>Wow is released
>Every mmorpg after that is made for retards.

>even though I am currently in the post-ARR hell segment
>after only a week
Absolute madlad. Keep it up, the bit between ARR and HW gets a bit better before it ends.
I wish we hung out with the background guys at the Rising Stones a bit more.

Internet speed and bandwidth is hardly an issue and this post is ignorant trash. It's just lazy game developers steered by lazy game designers.

the old republic still exists? It was unredeemable dogshit 10 years ago.

COPE

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its a weeb version of battle for lootboxes

It got better and then it got worse again.

Still not worth playing though, especially now that it's F2P and they're more interested in expanding the cash store than in fixing long-standing bugs.

UNDER THE WEIGHT
UNDER THE WEIGHT
UNDER THE WEIGHT

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Nothing, they were always trash.

I actually only care to get a local one running, just for myself. But yeah, I read up in the meantime, seems like a lot of reverse-engineering involved. Though there's already one for the game I'm looking at, I doubt they'd share the code even after closing.

eve online has plenty of it

players don't expect that, nor demand it.

it' something developers did of their own volition to satisfy their autism about equality

Tibia is good

Might have something to do with it being the 1st or 2nd biggest mmo I dunno

XIV ruined XV by taking their best developers in.

MMOs have forgotten that they need to be designed to require player on player interaction as much as possible. They are now glorified single player games where sometimes other people materialize to silently help you with a quest.

>XIV ruined XV
Is this the next step in Barry's quest to achieve untold depths of delusion?

Play LaTale

Don't you know, every other game in existence ruined XV by being in the same universe.

>players don't expect that, nor demand it.
Good one, the few games that still have unrestricted PvP are filled complaints about "muh unbalance". And games having not so good matchmaking (i.e. opponent being more skilled/geared than you) are also filled with complaints. Nobody accept to be matched against someone stronger. Everyone demand to have a "league" where only people of their skill/gear level are present so they can maintain a decent winrate.

Devs are delivering what customers want, it's the only way to make money.

might have something to do with you being massive fags and your general squatting on the wrong(this) board

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true, there is no reason they had to ruin it like they did with Guild Wars 2 though

gamers no longer desire player interaction

>Moderators don't moderate /vg/
>what the fuck why do people who want to talk about their game do so on Yea Forums?
Have you seen the difference between Yea Forums and /xivg/ threads?
Hell, we have regular TES threads and you don't whine about it. Though /tesg/ is much, much worse than /xivg/, in both cases you absolutely cannot talk about the game due to the disruptive influence the board seems to generate.

Do you also complain about the rampant nintendofags that crawl out of the woodwork and squat for months after anything ever is announced? What about all the off-topic threads constantly on the catalogue round the clock?
Stop backseat moderating and contribute positively instead of being a giant faggot.

BOW DOWN
youtu.be/U0G2auMMKlo

absolutely don't do this unless you can travel back in time 8 years

kys weeaboo shit eater

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the genre is inherently trash designed to suck money out of you.

People keep making WoW clones when WoW represents every single issue with the genre.

>Browse Yea Forums
>hate japanese products
What an idiotic combination

>WoW repainted and with 100x more ERP
>saving MMOs

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The nullsec blackout has been a godsend. Space got spooky again, bots and krabs BTFO

>17 minutes? I guarantee it's easier there were multiple encounters in EQ with average attempt times of 2 hours or more
>8 man I guarantee it's easier now in EQ on the other hand...
You get delusional without energy so get your sippies and chin up, old man.

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Fuck off trimming the abilities of each class was one of the worst thing Blizzard did

Its a long list of factors some affect the game behind the scenes and others affect the player experience.

Data mining, bots, cheating, chineese money farmers, slow grind/extra commitment, abusive/p2w cash shops, development/server costs, maintenence and creating new content/expansions, alt tab gameplay, senseless endless fetchquests.

This is to name a few. Either the company cant survive or players get turned off and play a different game. Its subscription or f2p. I spent half my life playing mmos on and off its not for everyone and most people eventually get busy irl and cant play like the good old days. Its why 2007 around those years was the golden era. I remember seeing some news story of some emo chick that was addicted to maplestory also stories on wow addiction its pretty vanilla stuff imo doesnt compare to actually ruining your life.

The mmorpg bubble became too big and thus started pandering to outsiders who care more about objective rewards than being immersed and creating social bonds. First WoW brought in endgame faggots who only care about dungeons over all else, thus eliminating all leveling and social aspects of the genre for the sake of instances. Then you had the advent of the single player story fags, who care nothing about mmos and prefer convenience beyond all else. Thus MMORPGs are only slightly social on RP servers where everywhere else its just a silent wait for raid culture where you can literally buy max level because leveling doesn't mean anything.

MMORPGs are a perfect example of how normalfags can ruin everything, thanks vanilla wow.