New tier list, discuss

>literally no one plays Shulk
>Shulk gets absolutely no results
>but he's still considered top tier because "MUH POTENTIAL!!"
Smashfags are retarded

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shulk is really good but nobody fucking plays him

Mercy for Kirby, at least make stone break shields like in 4. Please Sakurai.

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>Pikachu top
Is this an Esam tier list?

If he has the potential to be strong why shouldn't he be a top tier character?

not him, tiers are is one part potential and one part results. Shulk just doesnt have the results to back it up.
But I also think that list OP posted is the results. I thinks it a list of tournament win percentages.

I refuse to believe that a punching bag known as Bowser, is high tier.
No way.

>plant not a meme
>doc, lucas and ylink not at least occasionally memed

A punching bag you are talking about is made of steel and when you stopped punch it it punches you back real hard

Post your friend code and I'll show you what a high tier Bowser looks like.

not him but I'm down to play if you are

I can't believe how well made this is that I can actually look at it and think "Yeah, these choices make sense."

>high tier for once
what went right?

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They did give him a pretty significant rework in this game.

cloudbros....

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Why would Luigi say that? Most his mains are black.

Luigi is a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules.

As an Olimar main I absolutely disagree that Kirby is bottom tier. I know you can punish him for everything, but once he eats you and get to start throwing pikmin around, he'll really mess up my game. Also, is Zelda really that bad? I don't usually have a good time against her

Every aerial except nair and up air require a sweetspot. Also, her nair barely works. Her specials are kind of annoying but they can be dealt with by a good majority of characters.

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Kirby can get busted depending on his copy ability, but that's entirely MU dependent.
Unfortunately that's also why he's always trash tier, since they don't want him to become SSS tier with some specific power.

Just popping in this gayass thread to announce I've put this image into my mastubation rotation, and thank you for posting it

based

As a casual Shulk main, his Smash art helps get stupid early kills, problem is goes both ways, if your opponent is better than you, or can out play you, his arts can backfire and get him killed early.

Its the same with Greninja

>pit/dark pit low tier
>worse than robin, incin, or DDD
What the fug

Zelda is better than most of the tier above her and shuts out like 90% of them

Struggles to kill

DK is better than DDD, Incineroar and Ganon.

Even so, I think the Pits are still incredibly solid mid tiers. I'd probably put them at least above Mii Brawler/Ganon and/or Sheik.

>Four "mains"

A retard.

Huh? DP/Pit's side B is basically an instant kill.

>instant kill

Bowser Jr is objectively better than pit at everything yet struggles even more to get a kill and its relegated to bottom tier on every list. Fucking Kirby has great moves and strings to but also struggles to kill. You have to accept struggling to kill is a major flaw that relates to lower tiers

Who gets hit by those bar shitters or people casually playing? Ontop of that if you whiff then it's really easy to punish

How does one git gud as ROB? All his moves make him a sitting duck they have so much endlag.

>Bowser Jr is objectively better than pit at everything
Nigga what, Bowser Jr is garbage and deserves to be in bottom tier
Way too many startup frames to hit anyone unless you have a really big punish opportunity

yup. still manning ridley

I knew Yea Forums was shit at the game, but not this shit.
Holy fuck.

Use more down tilt.

Up throw at high percents for a kill, down throw and follow up on the bury.

Also, get them off stage and side b them. Rob is ez.

>Ridley keeps dropping every patch

For the love of god, please help my boy.

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Use all his b moves to keep a good distance and when he comes close just down tilt and side b (lol don't actually know if that combos)
also down throw and then jump and up tilt until he dies.

At least hes fun

Has inkling won a major yet? I keep hearing about how great this character is yet never saw it

big slow heavies are always doomed to tournament table scraps, you should be used to this by know

>still no obvious number 1 god character
is this going to be the most balanced smash or are DLC going to fuck that up?

So is Rool, and look where he is now.

don't mind me, just posting the only sort of tierlist that actually matters

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Well if you look at how high Joker is it's pretty clear that DLC is indeed once again going to fuck it up. Our only hope is if the last two end up being some more stupid slow characters.

Bowser Jnr has some really top tier moves like his fair, kart into uair spam, koopa stage pressure and his general recovery is incredible but how much of a struggle it is to kill with him really can't be understated. If they made fair kill at the 150 range like Palutenas nair or megaman fair does you'd see bowser Jnr got into the top tiers

What about Better nerf Greninja

I main Zelda and I don't think she is that bad. I think people just play her wrong. Everyone plays her by spamming her projectiles and going for sweet spots, which is easily played around. If you actually use the rest of her kit, she's decent, I'd say around mid-tier. I've gone to local tournaments and have beaten good players using top tiers as Zelda because I play her in a way that isn't common, but I would argue is better. Not to mention she's really cute in this game.

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>all of the shotas in lets not go there
what are you a fucking faggot?

>would fuck Kirby
>not Inkling

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he'd also fuck animals but inkling is the weird one

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I do all of that already.

I think people really underrated the phantom is they're rating her low tier. I'd go as far ro say she is top 3 for edge guarding in the game since her phantom cover most high recoveries and neutral b/dair cover low recoveries

That too

aren't the inklings meant to be literal children or something?

14 so who cares

14-16yo

Is Duck Hunt in mid because of Raito? I've mained DH since the beginning of Smash 4 and let me tell you the character is pretty trash. love the two like crazy don't get me wrong, but they are always at a disadvantage. even more so with every patch they keep nerfing him, like the fuck are they on?

>Shulk
Based Potential.

No way are they 14, they have absolutely zero breasts. They are definitely younger.

Just play the game.

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Shulk dabbing on cringe retards who can't cope with their mains being shit tier!

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they're also squid people, user

duck hunts always been a mid range character

Marina is at least somewhat older than the playable characters.

She's 18. Best girl is 21.

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swear he was at the bottom of most 'top players' tier list in 4.

WHEN THE FUCK ARE THEY GONNA GIVE LITTLE MAC SOME FUCKING AERIALS?!?!?!?

LITTLE MAC'S GROUND GAME ISN'T EVEN THAT GOOD ANYMORE DUE TO THE MECHANIC AND PHYSICS CHANGE!!!! IT WAS GOOD IN SMASH 4 BECAUSE SMASH 4 WAS FUCKING TRASH!!!!!

GIVE HIM SOMETHING SO THAT HE ISN't GUARANTEED BOTTOM 5 FOR THE REST OF ULTIMATE'S LIFE!!!

I've been a Kirby main since 64. Make it stop

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Only a rework can save him.

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>Ridley
>Occasionally memed
Ridley was so memed that people started to unironically believe that he wouldn't every be a playable character.

Also Pokemon Trainer is strongly related to memes as being associated with Red.

Also Mario and Luigi (especially Luigi) are total memes.

lol. Zelda has fundamental flaws in her kit that have existed since Melee. Ultimate is her best version, but that's not saying a whole lot.

Is Borb not a meme? Also, Ridley is the biggest meme.

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I used to play dark pit and you're full of shit, actually

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Local tournaments are not a good indicator of skill

I still don't see why Joker is rated at 4.9 when only one person has been getting any sort of good results with him while PT is still at 4.0 when the recent LTC tourney suddenly had half a dozen suddenly pop up into top 32 including people that just started to use PT. If anything, PT is the one reaching Bayo4 tier here.

Not surprising. There's a reason why they had stamina in Brawl.

PT is hard to evaluate as a whole because 90% of his power comes from how dumb Ivysaur

People truly do not understand tier lists anymore.
This is the same generation that calls any 2D female a "waifu".
Tier lists are based on fucking pick rate / success rate, not "POTENTIAL" you stupid faggots.

>Not bottoming for a saint dick to purify your asshole

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Smash Ult tier lists are now based on which character MkLeo is currently using and how many tourneys he wins with them.

Bowser Jr., Ridley and Ice Climbers have had better tournament results than Shulk.

Give Ridley some buffs please. All of bottom tier too but I care mostly about Ridley.

>Kirby THAT low
>Game and Watch that high
>Cloud in mid instead of high tier
Are accurate tier lists even possible anymore? I feel like a lot of these characters get ranked as high/low as they do because they're either slept on, or people don't know how to fight them.

>Best girl is 21
Correct

I've been shitting on people with Kirby regardless of his tier through out all the games

Cloud is definitely not getting slept on

How are you doing in tournaments Kirby-kun?

Smash Ult is actually a series of rock, paper, scissor match-up now. Counterpicking is far more potent than raw power. Rosalina is low-mid tier but she can counter Snake, Luigi and some other higher tier picks like nothing. Tiers are more used as guidelines than anything definitive.

based cloudchad. shame barely anyone uses him anymore.

No way Kirby is that low.
t. unironical Little Mac Main

I think I missed something, what makes Lucina a god tier character? Did she get buffed or something? Isn't she just Marth without the tipper?

She's a bit better than Marth since she has consistent damage. More braindead aerial spam using her over Marth.

There's a bunch of G&W players that make that character do extraordinary things. The character also has two abilities that can kill at low percentage(9 Hammer & Oil Panic(bucket).

>This is the same generation that calls any 2D female a "waifu".
Go to Yea Forums and you'll see so-called men calling 3D women "waifus." *shudder*

Great recovery, great edge guarding, great aerials, great kill potential. She's just great all round with no major flaws

But what do you do if the hammer fails?

Git punished

>the canonical strongest character is the lowest tier

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He's holding back so that it's fair to everyone else. He let them have a taste of his power in 64 and that was enough.

What sucks about Kirby is that he really doesn't need many buffs to make him mid tier at the very least.
>Better air mobility
>Better ground speed
>Gets an enemy's special permanently instead of temporarily

>Dtilt, his former best move, has MORE lag frames than 4
>lost his kill confirms
>Can't SideB again if he gets hit, practically negating the benefit of no special fall
>because of this, he still dies to a sneeze offstage
>Still not the best ground game despite that being his gimmick
>Still loses severely to camping
>Can literally never be mained in a Tourney because of how stacked stagelists and bans are against him, on top of the mentioned platform camping
>Abysmal winrate in both Smash 4 and Ultimate yet he still never receives any substantial buffs
It's just not right man....
He's so much fun to play but he's just not cut out for the job.

It's gotten to the point where I'm seriously considering dropping him... I love Mac but I if I want to win a Tourney in my life I need to say goodbye to my favorite character

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I'm sorry Macbro but he can't get buffed too much

>Pits in low
>Some dude ITT says they struggle to kill when they got buffs to kill like fsmash
>Can gimp a lot of the cast just by jumping off and drag down nair/fair

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It's honestly baffling how much WORSE Mac os in Ultimate, wasn't this gonna be the game to FIX him, not fuck him up more?!?!

But he has the "best" ground game. Surely that's good enough for this platform fighter? :^)

Kirby is like three inches tall. He was never that strong in the first place.

That's 1 MU out of over 70.

He literally kills universe destroying beings
One time he even did it over a piece of cake

>Incineroar has the slowest run speed
>Somehow isn't the worst character in the game
Nice. Too bad K Rool eats shit.

Ultimate glass cannon

>He literally kills universe destroying beings
So do most video game characters but nobody really cares.

>So do most video game characters
Most stop Earth sized threats at most
Kirby does universal sized shit nearly every game without a struggle

Kirby doesn't really do universe sized shit. It just does cutesy space stuff. Even Mario has done cutesy space stuff.

Repeating, of course.

They struggle to kill more because they struggle to approach. Just because you can beat some shitters who can't adapt doesn't make him top tier

>What sucks about Kirby is
His neutral B.

I can't believe Bayonetta is fucking dead

>cutesy space stuff

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Still cutesy space stuff. It's baby's first edgy final boss.

What about the other ones he fights?

It's actually baby's second, hence the name Zero TWO.

Cloud is still really good, people just refuse to use him because literally every other swordie besides Shulk is so much easier to make a pocket character

What happened to Bayonetta? I never really played her. What caused her to fall so much?

Baby stuff. If any of the characters from Kirby scared you as a kid or as an adult, there's something wrong with you.

Top-tier characters... Bottom-tier characters... That is only the selfish perception of tourneyfags. Truly skilled players should try to win with their favorites.

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So basically strip him of what makes him Kirby?
Kirby is a slow platformer series, it makes sense that Kirby is a slow Brawler. But being a slow Brawler in Smash Bros pretty much spells out your doom even when you have great moves: Look at how many good things the likes of Doc, Luigi, Incineroar or Ganondorf have to themselves, but the lack of disjointed hitboxes & mobility blocks them & makes their matchup Swords & Zoners too tough to be viable ( Although there's a bit more subtlety to it, this is their main issue, along with bad Disadvantageous state )

Tier lists are fucking dumb as hell. Luigi got 4th at the most recent major, people thought ZSS wasn't anything special until Marss started doing really good, people genuinely thought that Wolf wasn't too amazing early on because he couldn't "kill" (lmfao), Joker is solely carried by MKLeo and has no other huge results outside of him. Fucking King K Rool was considered one of the best in the game because he's a walking bag of gimmicks nobody knew how to consistently deal with 1 week in.

Just play who you like goddamn it's not that hard

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Tier lists are mostly just conversation pieces
No one actually chooses characters based on them except for an autistic few

Yeah, we know. Tier lists are theoretical in nature and rely only on what's currently known about the game, what can be agreed upon by enough people, and only work in hypothetical situations in which both players are of completely equal skill.

That doesn't mean they don't matter. They help analyze the game. People used to think Snake was better than Metaknight in Brawl. What happened? The metagame developed.

Tiers are constantly evolving based upon how people are playing and what we know about the game. You haven't invalidated anything.

t. never played a Kirby game

Glad you guys seem to understand what the actual purpose of tier lists are, unfortunately when you post one to Yea Forums most people are going to look at it and treat it as 100% truth without any context.

Also yeah picking a character based on their tier placement is dumb as hell

I have no idea why people think Link is better than Mii Swordfighter.

You mean to tell me it takes time for a metagame and its threats to develop? Wow! Thanks!
That being said fuck tier whores who give up this early into the game with a character that has potential despite enjoying them. That also being said, tier lists are generated from debates from the results shown recently & in general. A statement like " Joker shouldn't be that high, he's carried by Leo " is a bit too small, it's just one piece that should lead into several questions like if MKLeo has shown a form of exploitability with Joker that was more or less prominent back when he played characters like Ike, if there is something players aren't exploiting that's been exehibited in a High to Top level match before, and look deeper into Joker's actual representatives.

because modern FGC/Smash scene can't do anything but bandwagon jump and recite tourney results.

I love Kirby. I just don't jerk off Kirby.

What happened to Wario ?

Why do you think Mii Swordfighter is better?

I personally think Joker is dumb as hell and is definitely strong, but him being at the very top in a results based tier list is absolutely a byproduct of being mained by the best player in the world.

Air-Jolt Haymaker refreshes on hit.

Instantly mid-tier

Joker is getting results everywhere.

In smash 4 all three mii fighters went untiered. Not because they were bad but because no one wanted to play them

Maining Samus is suffering. At least my other main is decent.

Not even a heavy

Mained Mario since 64. Ride till I die.

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It's not results based
It's the result of 11 Top Player tier lists being combined into one. I don't know the precise methology but I'd wager the 5 tiers amount to a certain amount of points.

>captain falcon, ken, ryu, simon in 'ew'
literally why
also what seperates 'would blow' and 'would bottom for'

they completely erased her kill power. all she can do to secure a kill is land a strong stray hit

I never said they're top tier, they're solid mid. Just because you actually have to play neutral instead of having some god aerial you can just throw out doesn't make them low.

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Link can kill outside gimmick set-ups or praying on Hero Spin

The only masochistic experience i've ever had and enjoyed is playing Lil Mac. The Punchout games always made you feel like an underdog- even in Title Defense, Mac is fighting for his fucking life in every fight. I almost enjoy how shitty Lil Mac is because it forces me to actually git gid as a player and use all of his kit to it's fullest potential. The victories are so rewarding. Especially when you win matchups that are just totally against you- like projectile spamming Links and platform campers.

I still think Mac needs to be properly buffed, of course, but the experience is rewarding nonetheless.

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So why is Lucina over a tier above Marth while Chrom is literally one single point above Roy?

Ridley IS a heavy. Just not a super heavy.

Is this supposed to be in favor of Lil Mac or Olimar? Shouldn't Lil Mac be smaller and facing the other guy, similar to how he is in the Punchout games?

Why did they let her get fucked up this bad by Ultimate mechanics? Everyone combos and hits harder, but the multipliers did not work in her favor as much as the rest of the characters

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Lucina is good, Marth isn't
Both chrom and Roy are good

marth's tipper is far more difficult to land, to the point of impracticality. the loss of jab combos also doesn't help. Roy's sweetspot is not nearly as tough to hit and he can combo reliably into it

But they are low since as I said bowser Jnr has a superior kit than pit but merely has even less kill potential which therefore makes him objectively a low tier

What results?

Did you play smash 4? Because between her and Diddy Kong it was antifun

Bro let's take this online

Even pre DLC these two were just about average top tiers in terms of how fun they were to handle. The real cancers of Smash 4 were Rosalina & Luma, and Sonic, before DLC came in and introduced Cloud & Bayonetta.

Main a top and main a bottom. Neat.

My shitty take on the tier list, more about ease of usage in tournament more than "potential" or rankings

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she was basically an Ultimate character in that game, one of only a handful of characters that can do sick combos and even fewer who can be safe hitting a shield with an aerial. Now, everyone can be safe on shield and do combos, and then they made Sheik worse at it

If Diddy, Wii Fit or Bowser is SS then Cloud has no reason not to be there.

Move WFT, bro

If this was an ESAM tierlist, Pikachu would be at the last spot of top tier. Openly admitting you're a tierwhoring soijak gets your main nerfed. It's why all tierlists keep putting Joker as top tier, both so they don't have to admit they get bodied for absolutely free by a fat spic weeaboo and so that the fat spic weeaboo's main gets a Bayo-tier nerf.

Speaking of which, buff Bayo ffs. I don't even want the ladder combos back, just let her tilts kill again before 200+ percent ffs

Characters can be good and difficult to use, Fox, Joker, Inkling, Pikachu, Diddy and PT are all miles harder than Roy, Chrom, Lucina, Yoshi and Wolf.

Modern? People were always like that.

>I still don't see why Joker is rated at 4.9 when only one person has been getting any sort of good results with him
Why do people forget about Tsu and dyr? Just because they didn't win three majors in a row doesn't mean they don't exist.

Don't give me that fucking excuse when Meta Knight can zip across the stage.

I love borb. Some people can't deal with his rushdown.

Borb?

Masked Kirby

Meta Knight is significantly faster than Kirby in the Kirby games, too. In Air Ride he doesn't even need a vehicle to keep up with Kirby, he just flies.

>Tier lists are based on fucking pick rate / success rate

Originally they were based on match-ups but good fucking luck trying to convince even a professional Smash player that they should grind out thousands of different matchups to formulate a tier list that's objective.

It's actually kind of sad that this is the one area where stat tracking in smash is severely lacking. We know how many majors a player won after having wheaties for breakfast two days ago but we don't know what tiers characters objectively belong in outside of gut feelings and muh potential

Isn't this list based purely on results?

>Fox
Nair dispenser, his frame data is ridiculously good
>Joker
Without Arsene he's pretty technical, but Arsene out (which isn't hard to do at all with that counter) he really is easy
>Inkling
Kill confirms out the ass and a retarded projectile, recovery, and dashdance. Hardest thing is knowing how to jump out of sideb
>Pikachu
Quick attack and his drag-down combo are pretty tricky to get down consistently but he's just so strong overall that you don't NEED them to do good at lower levels of tournament play
>Pokemon Trainer
Ivysaur

Lucina's "balance" works to a point that it's far safer and more reliable than Marth needing to rely on hitting with the point. The fundamental changes between her and Marth this time around are also much less significant.

Roy's sweetspot is his hilt so Chrom has an inherent advantage in being able to use the full length of Falchion, along with some tweaked animations to give him more forward grip slashes giving him slightly more range to make use of keeping at enemy at the length of his sword, and the overall damage distribution means once Chrom is in bare minimum range he can make use of oppressive attack speed and devastating power to wreak havoc. But Roy's hilt is also a little easier to hit since you just have to wade closer to the enemy, so between him being weaker at the tip, it's easier to set stuff up to close the distance and then finish off with a in-fighter strike at contact.

The thing that really shakes them up is while Chrom has the edge in terms of raw output, his Up Aether(Soaring Slash) obviously has limited recovery utility while Roy gets the generic "goes up and a little forward while attacking" which gives him some edge in recovery. Both are useful in a fight even after Chromikaze got nerfed.

So they're going to be ranked separately as echoes, even if just by a point, while Ken(who functionally might as well be a new character) and Lucina get a little more significant difference, and every other echo is treated like their baseline since the differences are trivial.

Meta Knight has always been a more nimble opponent than Kirby in his boss battles and his design hints at that as well which both Sakurai & later Kirby devs took advantage of in Meta Knightmare. He has bat wings, of course he's more nimble.
Besides, Meta Knight's Air Speed is still below average & his run speed is decently fast but Kirby's is already average.

Why does everyone immediately get cut off when they say the word Ivysaur? Did Ivysaur

Whenever you play as Meta Knight, he's always the same speed as Kirby. If Smash wanted to be 100% accurate, Samus wouldn't be slow, Ness and Lucas wouldn't be using half of the moves they use, Dark Pit would use his staff, etc.
Kirby's lack of mobility is in no way a defining part of his character, and even Sakurai agrees since he was much more mobile in 64.
>B-But that was the game he was OP in!
It wasn't his mobility that made him OP. It was pic related.

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>Just because they didn't win three majors in a row doesn't mean they don't exist.
That's exactly what it means, at least in terms of tournament tierlist factibility.
Truth of the matter is Captain Falcon is one of the most common characters used in pools (and online Elite Smash). Should that mean Falcon is high tier? No, because all those Falcons drown.
Only Falcons that make it to top 16 or better, such as Fatality's, should be considered for tier results.
The only Joker that counts is Leo's.

I don't get it. What does the numbers mean?

You can try to downplay all you want but every character I've listed still takes more skill than Yoshi, swordies and Wolf.
Name one technical thing about Lucina or Roy, they're the easiest characters in this game while being good enough to carry all flavors of shitter due to their MU spread and ability to hard counter anyone who can't deal with safe disjoints. We're 8 months into Ultimate's meta and there's still not a go to "anti sword" character because swordies have no weaknesses to exploit. and anything that should beat them (i/e projectile spam) they can deal with just fine thanks to their speed and frame data.

Number of sexual encounters

Ranking ratios. Higher it is, more they win.

how do you have 0.3 sexual encounters?

Marth has
>terribad sourspot
>inconsistent Sweet spot
>indirect nerfs upon transition to SSBU mechanics

>still putting kirby at the bottom
I will find whoever did this

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>swordie
Are you the guy who keeps complaining about anime? FFS, you got your gay bear on the way already, can you give it up for once? Your so-hated "anime swordsmen" aren't going away, stop crying.

Sakurai did this for 4 games now

But Snake is Blue-balled af

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????
Swordie is a really common term in Smash, user.

Masturbation?

>my nigga is high tier
nice

It was me, Dr. John HAL, CEO of HAL Laboratory.

>Palutena
she only says is in the same sentence as cock

I thought Wolf, Snake and rats were the anti-Swordie characters. They have good projectile spam and frame data when up close.

Prefaced by "I love sucking"

What's with all the doctors around here? Can anyone become a doctor now?

Snake maybe but there's nothing stopping a Lucina from just playing defensive and outranging the rats.

How the fuck is shitulena top tier?

Nairo.

Even Bowser and haha got an MD. Check out Dr. Mario's latest game on the phone

How is she not?

Aren't these usage stats as opposed to actual tier list rankings?

Nice thought, but as everyone else said, nobody uses A VISION

>smash game is good
>Kirby is terrible
Poor, cursed Kirby

>haven't touched the game at all since february except once to check out joker
>decide to play some online matches
>got kicked out of elite but whatever
>play like 10 matches against 5 different people
>get fucking annihilated as they outspace me at every turn, parry all my shit, mash out of grabs in like a quarter of a second, tech everything perfectly, read all my get up options like a fucking book, and all around just rape my asshole match after match
uh what the fuck happened, did the people who stuck around get that much better or did I acquire brain damage

Wait, so are these based off of an almalgam of top Player tier lists?
It would explain why Luigi and Icies are so low despite making some waves recently, no ones has made one in a while

Palutena has the most diverse kit out of all the top tier. I main a Pikachu, but I keep telling newbies to use Palutena if they want to get their feet wet first.

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No, there's only one notable Inkling and Pichu player for example.

The shitters left

the problem is that no one can tap into said potential because playing him at the level required for him to be top tier is almost impossible. Like, half his tech is functionally theoretical

Not true though. Tweak won but his ivy was lowkey ass, but his squirtle was clean. Puppeh had a solid charizard and a mediocre ivy but still did great. Pt is top 5 minimum in my opinion.

There are others. If Kirby copies skull you're getting raped and there is nothing you can do about it

I always play snake at my friends place because I think the missile attack is funny. I don't even own a switch lol.

It's so strange that the simplest, least complex Xenoblade party member was turned into the biggest brain character in Smash history.

Someone should pay MkLeo to main Shulk for a tournament and we can finally see if he really is top tier or not.

That's exactly why they have to keep Kirby weak. His copy abilities can break the game.

I mean at least joker is getting some results. People were calling paisy the best character in the game even though no one besides samsora was going anywhere with her. Even he didn't win anything significant

They made her into a Smash character.

They'll be back for Banjo, so that'll be a good time to get back into the game and stomp some scrubs.

People aren't landing Marth's tippers. Once people get used to the spacing due to the mechancs changes, he'll end up in the same tier as Lucina in the end.

"results" doesn't necessarily mean "winning". the fact that samsora can make multiple top 8s with the character clearly speaks well for the character's power

>k.rool kucks
oh no no no no no....

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You found out you were bad.

What results? So far, only one was able to win with Joker where as 2-3 were capable of barely reaching top 32, and even then, they had to switch to another character for some matches. For a supposedly strong character and had FotM status, that is absolutely mediocre. Pokemon Trainer is currently having FotM and it had far more successful and numerous placings, especially given some of the players are new to PT.

You're not wrong, but at the same time people been saying that since launch back in December 2018 and now it's fucking July.

You basically need to have phenomenal spacing sense like MkLeo to consistently pull those tippers off, and as you can guess, a vast majority of people are not MkLeo. And even then MkLeo would rather rely on reliable Lucina than place his faith on landing the tipper on Marth.

>Junior over K. Rool
I play both of them and no way in hell Junior is higher.
The unironically biggest thing he has going for him is the fact that no one knows how to play against him. I watched a couple of sets out of curiosity and everyone lets Junior spam his shitty, slow Mechakoopas without punishing him.
Mechakoopas are dogshit in this game

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You are absolutely delusional if you find K.Rool better, as someone who also plays both
Jr. has better mobility, combos, damage output due to said combos, survivability due to being smaller and taking less damage than everyone else on average while still being a heavy, and better projectiles and zoning
The only thing K. Rool has over him is recovery, and that only when below stage due to Abandon Ship being a hunk if shit compared to K. Rool's Propeller Pack

>encounter Little Mac
>shit myself because wifi smash attack spam
>encounter Bowser Jr, Pac Man other obscure character
>shit myself because only weaponizing autismos play them and know how to fuck shit up
>encounter Kirby
>relief because he's the least threatening character in the game no mater offline or online
I feel bad for Kirbybros

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Its easy to shit on K. Rool but people forget about his strenghts
>down throw into up-smash kills at around 90%
>if you don't mash to avoid it he can down smash
>f-tilt has more range than Ganon f-smash
>up throw does 20% on its own
Meanwhile Junior racks up damage with almost up air only alone and then struggles to kill because he has like 3 viable options that all require the opponent to be near the ledge.

Nigga what? DK is just as much of a meme as even Falcon

I feel like Kibry can be buffed without a complete rework is if they gave him an option to copy a random power after he inhales an enemy.

>primarily play kirby
>pick up inkling as a secondary and wolf as a pocket
I guess you can say I only play mid tier.

But jokers doing the same thing but actually winning, so isn't it justified to say that it shows the characters power as well?

>Inkling
>Wolf
>mid tier

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By some results I mean mkleo and wishes doing decent

i hate this stupid meme but cmon

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I never shit on K. Rool, he just doesn't have anything over Jr. beside recovery
>down throw into up-smash kills at around 90%
Not on people who can both mash properly and have decent DI.
>if you don't mash to avoid it he can down smash
The fact that you only have a second to choose one option when the opponent can either delay mash, instant mash or not mash at all is what makes it so unreliable below 100%. ROB can get away with because he has multiple option in both the air and ground to punish every option, are fast and big enough to cover him if he mistimes, and even if he messes up, he has his amazing frame trapping and projectiles to cover his ass.
>f-tilt has more range than Ganon f-smash
It is a really good move, I can't deny it, especially with the armor
>up throw does 20% on its own
That pretty good too.
>Meanwhile Junior racks up damage with almost up air only alone and then struggles to kill because he has like 3 viable options that all require the opponent to be near the ledge.
Absolitely fucking not. he has plethora of combo options in Up-Tilt, Up Throw, Clown Kart Dash, Falling Nair, Mechakoopa, and landing Fair/ Bair. If there;s one thing that commentators always say about Jr. when he shows up, its that his combos and damage output are absolutely fucking insane when he gets close. His kill options ar5e also much better, with F-Smash, D-Smash, Up-Smash finally killing at a reasonable percent post-3.1.0, Jab, and near-effortless Mechakoopa follow-ups with practice. He has much more going for him than K.Rool, which is why even though everyone thinks they're both bottom tier (though I disagree), nearly everyone agrees he's better

We'll return to glory one day kirbyfags

Wishes plays both PT and Joker though, so it's hard to say it's Joker getting results when it could be PT doing most of the work and Joker is his alt.

>Pikachu is the best character of Smash Ultimate
Is it me or the Melee Summit fever affected this tier list?
Pikachu isn't the best character bros

I think/hope its a joke where he uses Kirby(a low tier) and combines them with his secondaries Inkling(top) and Wolf(high) tier.

Maybe it does, or maybe he really is carried by being the main of MK Leo. Regardless, the fact that a character can make consistently high placings tells us well enough that the character is at least high tier. Same goes for Peach, first place or otherwise.

That's possible, although when I watched him at ceo it was all joker until his final match where pt came out. My problem.here is that the "only Leo gets results" argument only seems to apply to joker. All I'm really saying is that if people were comfortable calling peach "best character in the game* even though she had one person pulling in results, I don't see why people aren't willing to do the same with joker, despite jokers " results" being objectively, better.

Samus is hilariously better than this tier list shows off, she’s easily in high tier. Charge shot into grab combos is so fucking good for percent it’s insane. She’s got more results than like everyone in mid tier.

Plus, if Yoshi is in High tier with almost no top 8 appearances, why is Samus not in high tier when she’s got the same curse?

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See mkleo isn't that far ahead for me to believe that no matter what character he picked he could dominate with. I don't see Leo picking up someone like peach and being nearly as dominant. Although i do agree peach is high tier, she's definitely not top 5 in this and i don't know if she ever was. Even though everyone seems convinced she is

>Plus, if Yoshi is in High tier with almost no top 8 appearances, why is Samus not in high tier when she’s got the same curse?

Since Smash 4 came out people have died on the hill that Yoshi is amazing. I don't understand it either.

>docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0
No they don't retard.

My tier-whoring averages out.
4.9+4.8+0.3=10
10/3 = 3.3
Low high-tier.

That's not how it works, user

basado retardo

certainly not his new forward air

except this tierlist is based on usage/results retard that's what the 4.1 means you brainlet

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Numbers say it does, friend. If I decide to pick up Little Mac, it'll put me down to 2.6, high mid-tier.
By law of averages, I'm not a tier-whore. And you can't stop me.

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>Wario is not a meme
GET OUTTA HERE!

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i'm a faggot, not a fucking pedo
on reflection yeah, he might be able to go up a tier
just because i would suck someone off it doesn't mean i would let them fuck me.

>every tier list will always be as useful as the ones made only weeks after the games release
>implying anyone who wasn't retarded didn't realize K Rool was shit within hours
>posts a picture of melee yoshi, a character made decent only through tech skill which doesn't exist

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nah it doesn't because EVERY other fucking non-heavy has a decent airspeed
fire emblems never jump in the air in their games but they have good airspeeds, and and their games are slow-paced to some extent, why aren't they as slow as current kirby? because that would be fucking retarded

Wasn't K. Rool a top tier when this game was released? What happened?

About as top tier as Little Mac was when 4 first came out.

he was "top tier" for the first week until people figured out how to play around his gimmicks.

Week 1 means fucking nothing because no one knew how to play the game at that point.

You also want to fuck animals

The same thing that happens with every fighting game ever.
>fighting game
Speed beats heavies every single time. Too slow, not enough gimmicks, big fat combo meat. Every heavy has these problems.

don't tell me you seriously think pokémon aren't sapient

how the fuck do you beat DKs online, mashing to get out of his grab and trying to tech a stage spike might as well be a coin toss on surviving with the input delay in the average match

people weren't used to dealing with his stuff or the input buffer. now they are and the reality is just about everything he does is slow and reactable, and despite being so fucking thick and surviving to high-as-fuck percents he gets juggled EASILY.

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Yeah, but still, what makes vanilla Kirby bad?

You can get into Elite as Ridley pretty easily; you've got that going for him.

No mobility
No good approach options
Combos stop after like 30%
Can't chase off stage despite having 6 jumps because low air speed
predictable recovery path despite 6 jumps
One of the lightest characters in the game
Struggles to kill

Has two good moves: uTilt and bAir. Everything else has too much start-up and/or endlag.

by the time you've finished that sentence Little Mac is already in the loser's bracket

jesus h christ how did they think that was ok

input heavy =/= difficult to use

All of you have such shitty takes, goddamn

Cloud has one good aerial to approach with, a shit ground game, and one of the worst recoveries in the game. This list is being generous.

>he picks his characters based on tier-lists and not how they feel to play or how much he likes the character

Abuse the fact that he's a big furry punching bag.

>tfw Luigi main since 64

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But I do. I'm just not dumb or arrogant enough to claim my character is good just because I can slap my scrub friends or bop the average online shitter with them

People think she's really boring so they don't want to say she's good.

What exactly makes for a "good" character beyond the person playing them being good?
Presence of a projectile? Ability to initiate? Speed?

>Good frame data
>speed
>ability to combo
>good kill moves
Shit like that

So, the only good characters are rushdowns?

A good majority are

Snake and Lucina are zoners yet some of the best characters in the game.

Are you retarded? Good frame data can also mean "not having a ton of lag", Palutena isn't a rushdown and she's top tier. Neither are Peach, Wario, Snake or Olimar.

Yoshi isn't that great, Im not good against him myself but Ive seen him get his shit pushed in to many times competitively.

Buffs in 4.0, r-right?

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there's multiple ways to formulate a tier list you fucking morons

Pure results is one way to do it, yes, but that isn't perfect because it's skewed by usage: Characters which might be or straight up are good but are avoided due to trends in the meta or because it takes a disproportionate amount of work to get that amount of utility out to fhtme compared to another character which might have a lower utility ceiling but takes way less skill to hit it get screwed over in tier lists based on usage.

Not a smash player, but as a pokken player, this is basically the situation with Weavile. He's pretty universally considered to be upper mid to high tier, but he's got one of the lowest amounts of tourney results in the game, even lower then some lower-low tier characters, simply because he doesn't have that many players and it takes a lot of work to get the most out of him at higher levels of play; but IS pretty effective (not as much so as top tier or upper high tier chgaracters, mind you) if you can leverage it; and has no real bad matchups and a lot of good ones.

why is Mario so much better than doc

>amazing frame data
>amazing damage output
>decent range
>good recovery
>great mobility
>heavyweight
>nair oos is retardedly good
The only thing Yoshi struggles at somewhat is killing and dealing with swords. Do not pretend he's not that good.

Doc has shit recovery and is slower

Ken's combo game is considerably better than Ryu's.

Greninja actually gets mad results in Japan.

Doc was originally designed way back in Melee to be a slightly stronger Mario with slightly worse mobility. Those difference were very minute so while Doc was usually considered the better of the two, Mario wasn't considered too far behind in terms of viability. When Smash 4 and Ultimate came around Sakurai and his team doubled down on that design philosophy to extreme levels, to the point where Doc now its like a truck but moves like a snail. Of course since mobility is an nigh-essential trait to have to be considered viable, that's where the disparity between Mario and Doc started rearing its ugly head.

i wish mario had his n64 voice lines

Doc is heavy and has a garbage recovery.

He's top tier online with Lag, not local play.

not even. i destroy every k rool online.

>caring about tiers
no.

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Cute Zelda

Because PT is arguably getting better results than Joker, from people completely new to PT no less, and no one is saying he's top tier. Joker is getting mixed results from everyone else despite having FotM status and everyone saying he's top tier. There is a severe disconnect between what people are saying and what is actually happening.

people don't put as much time as mkleo has in joker.

>amazing frame data

on like, 3 moves. Most of them are garbage

>amazing damage output
>decent range

no

>heavyweight

being somewhat above normal weight is barely anything.

Doesn't make up for

>not being able to kill
>horrible grabs with literally no reward
>shit range
>footstools offstage kill him instantly
>shit projectile

There's literally no reason to use him over characters of the same archetype unless you REALLY care about airspeed and nothing else. He's good at destroying scrubs that don't know to press the shield button but that's it.

Holy fuck you must be the shittiest yoshi to ever pick up the sticks. His nair is frame 3, is an amazing "get off me too", does fat damage and has a ton of active frames, his tilts are all lighting quick and can combo into each other for huge damage, his dair does a fuckton of shield pressure, has a landing hitbox and Yoshi gets increased air speed while using it allowing him to space it so it's safe on shield. Yoshi is unga as fuck and you trying to pretend he's anything below high tier makes you look like a fucking clown.

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>People keep saying Inkling is top tier
>Good players have stopped getting hit by roller
>Only get kills at super high percentages if you don't get the roller hit
>Utilt whiffs on over half the cast
>Dair sucks
>Can't hit the smalls with Nair to start offense
>Splatbomb ledge trapping is easy to get around
>Only inkling is Cosmos and he perma 7th place.

This meme needs to end. Everyone wised up with King K Rool, why not inking? The only good thing the character has is Bair. Every Inkling I've seen kicks ass until around 100% then suddenly none of their tools work because none of them lead to tech situations

>tfw all those nerfs to pussy hat wojak
it fucking hurts bros

>This meme needs to end. Everyone wised up with King K Rool, why not inking?
because K. Rool is actually bad and inkling isn't. inkling has gotten better tournament results so far relative to how long she's been out than smash 4 bayonetta and cloud combined.

there are slightly more broken characters but she's still had good tournament success and made several top 8s. mkleo is just too high level of a player and is also playing a top 3.

Which is funny cause samus at high level is one of the sickest characters in the game because she REQUIRES good techskill in b reversing and wavebouncing in order to unlock her busted neutral potential with charge shot movement and pivot sliding in order to get one of her best kill confirms

People always say “Wow YB/Joker is shmoving! That’s some of the best samus play I’ve ever seen they’re so creative!” When in reality most non-wifi samus players like quiK and Vorst are all doing that shit too. It’s not the players, it’s essentially what Samus is supposed to do nowadays lol

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>K. Rool has a low skill floor and low skill ceiling
>Bad players can easily beat mediocre players on him, making the character seem "OP" to casuals
>Entire playstyle is a gimmick that's easily countered, pro players immediately realize he's trash after the game releases and casuals do too after he gets an undeserved nerf
>Inkling
>Much higher skill cap to effectively play, but also has a crutch move that can easily stomp shitters and lower level players
>Have to actually practice and remember what percentages up throw up air confirms into per character
>Still can do mindgames with roller and even pro players still get hit by them, just not stray braindead ones like casuals do

Boils down to difficulty. Inkling can actually function without relying on her gimmick if the other player is smart enough to play around it, while K. Rool can't because his entire kit is a gimmick. Pretty much why you see so much bitching about Lucina and Wolf online because they're easy, yet hardly anyone complains about Peach or Fox because they actually require practice and skill to be decent at.

He’s not slow and he’s not a heavy lol

His airspeed isn’t great but gems so big his hitboxes will keep hitting you anyway

>chrom above roy
Whats 2 mil gsp like?

>echo fighter ranked slightly above another one that pros still aren't decided about
this tier list is based off of tournament results by the way. how's being a no name wifi warrior?

This, I've even seen some ordered tier lists place her below Ridley of all characters, when that isn't the case. She's clearly above average in this game, we even almost got a Samus in top 8 recently with that Joker guy at LTC 7. Really hoping this leads to more people making waves with the character

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brawlhalla threads when?

How do I get good at cannon?

And Tweek had put in just as many hours in Pokemon Trainer then?

>Snake, Joker, PT, easy to use
>Ness, takes more practice than usual
>Bowser, Diddy, Wiif Fit, ROB, PT, Yoshi, Ike, all in SS tier

How is Ridley so low again?
>Powerful aerial game
>Perfect punish game
>Grabs are good, plenty of results with them
>Spacing on tilts is incredible
>"Low tier" because of combo strings being only 2-3 moves with 24-80%
It really doesn't make sense. His tools aside from his projectile and abnormally large hitbox are nigh perfect, and his only outstanding weakness is if someone were to gimp him off-stage, his recovery can't go horizontal unless he's facing backwards. Side-B check, though, so it goes both ways. Count on knowing when to gimp Ridley if you're going for it. Oh, and no disjoints aside from Utilt and Usmash.

I never played lucina but marth tipper can kill at 40-60%
is she really better or people don’t know how to use the tipper?

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He's massive , absolute combofood for anyone who knows what they're doing.

They made tipper stronger, but smaller. So it's now far more inconsistent.

He fat

He’s too big

> make tornado slightly slower and more gimpable, BUT make it go a lot further and have less endlag so he can have a decent recovery
>buff back-throw so it's the actual strongest in the game, make it kill earlier than Ness' (maybe buff Incineroar's too since hes suppose to have a god-tier back throw as well)
literally all I want

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>An issue i've never had with Ridley is a glaring problem with others
>What is Ganon, DK, K-rool, Bowser

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Everyone i know is saying pt is top tier and i agree. Imo top 5 is snake, pt, Pikachu, lucina, inkling/joker

He actually has piss poor grab range but he does get a couple things off dthrow at least. He doesn't have any good get-off me tools and has average air mobility, which combined with his big hurtbox means he gets hit a lot, which is worse than it is for other big bodies because he's lighter than them, bowser weighs 135 while ridley weighs 107, ridley will die way earlier to things bowser wouldn't etc.

I feel like his flaws come from things he doesn't have rather than things he does, if that makes sense. Like you wouldn't have to change any of his framedata if you just gave him better weight, or super armor on upspecial startup so it's not as easy for people to smack him out of the air, better air mobility, etc

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I want Tornado to start sooner and have less endlag, that way it's better for combos and recovery. Also let him get the ability to use it for height back if he gets hit.

Doc shouldn't have a decent recovery, it being one of his weaknesses has always been a part of the character. The problem is just that the weakness is too pronounced right now.
>Buff Roar bThrow
jesus fuck no thanks, I don't even think Doc's needs to be buffed.

Ganon isn't as big.
K Rool is absolutely garbage, worse than Ridley in that aspect, with the exception of being extremely hard to kill and being able to throw out super armour moves to get out of disadvantage.
Bowser is both heavier and faster than Ridley, which makes him better. Tough guy also prevents him from getting combo'd bad at low percentages.

>Cuck K Fool below top tier

Deluded faggots trying to make excuses for their ez mode spam trash character to justify being spamming trash at the game, fucking cheap bitches need to learn to play a balanced character
Smash 4 switch port is the worst game in the franchise and Nintendo should probably just kill the series already desu

PT has no recovery, no way is he top tier.

>DK and Krool are both low tier (rool is lower than Ridley) and suffer more than being fat
>Ganon isn’t fat he’s slow
>Bowser is a fast boy

What’s the context?

Zard sorta has recovery but then they need to switch back to Ivy ASAP

Ganondorf is stronger, easier, and heavier than Doc while also having a bad, but still significantly better recovery than him as well.

He still has a melee tier recovery when all of the characters minus Luigi have gotten some love with recoveries over the years. I don't know why at least making his tornado function and not a death sentence when recovering would be such a bad thing.

up b out of shield
now imagine if g&w had his fair and upsmash from smash 4

I agree with you, I just don't think your approach to fixing Doc is ideal. Less endlag on Tornado would allow him to actually recover from below the edge sometimes if he wanted to take that route. Maybe a little boost from Cape wouldn't hurt too. Doc's recovery is so absurdly bad that I'm surprised he's not considered bottom tier.

>Powerful aerial game
This is painfully untrue. He's slow as molasses in the air.

>heaviest character in the game
>yet be faster than half of the cast
Bower is so fucking fun to play

TOO BIG
NOT MOBILE IN THE AIR
BAD RECOVERY
MEDIOCRE FRAME DARA
NOT HEAVY ENOUGH
Sakurai’s balance team is full of fucking brainlets with how they balance this shit game. And you’re all faggots for wanting Ridley in the first place. Yes, I’m mad at a gook’s cockfighting tournament game.

>is a character that flys in his own games
>have a shit recovery and slow as fuck movement speed in smash
What did they mean by this?

>fast on the ground
>average in the air
>>character is a flying space dragon xenomorph
how the fuck did they come to this conclusion

Even Zard's recovery is mediocre at best. Up-B has no horizontal momentum and is kind short, and flare blitz leads to you rebounding of the edge of the stage and getting punished by anyone who knows what they are doing.

fox too high, he has extremely polarizing matchups and relies too much on tech chasing in a game with 6+ frames of input lag. Nair upsmash is only reliable from 90 to 120%
and he cant edgeguard for shit

At least Zard's up b comes out instantly
Ridley's is like a rocket launch

Up-B OoS being one of the best in the game.
Combos being absolute bonkers
Low start up on most attacks
Kills stupid early

When he was announced I thought his move set was gonna be like jigglypuff where he was mostly an air fighter but sucks on the ground.

>Link in high tier
He's low mid at best

Ridley is a space alien chicken.

I still think it would've been cool if Ridley had yoshi-tier air mobility and just a non-recovery up special. And also like yoshi, have ground moves designed to get opponents in the air for juggles
I don't care if it wouldve been overpowered, it could've been fun

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>Ridleyfag seething at the game for not making his meme dragon super top tier
Shut the fuck up and wait. A ton of character have gotten due buffs and nerfs, lets see if Ridley gets his fair share

Chicken fuck literally flys in his announcement trailer

With that new down-B? No. He's low high tier.

Who are you quoting?

He literally has no tournament results and has too many bad match ups

Brehs why is she so thicc

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Jab is a wonderful get-off me tool. Good OOS option for when grab can't reach, good for when you whiff any aerials landing, ESPECIALLY Fair, which will link up. Most Ridleys never use it because of muh grabnair combos, but you're only ever going to get grabs in if your opponent is bad or slips up mid-set. Ridley is incredibly fast on the ground as well, don't forget that. Baiting someone who is in the air to land in a spot that you can easily poke them at is important for his neutral, which is a completely different story than most characters who need to run in and get those combo moves.
Bowser is faster than Ridley in the air, not ground.
Ike-tier spammable Nair and a Bair that kills at 95 at ledge is good too. Easy ledge trumps.
Again why do people not play Ridley so passively? He's got the ideal punish-centered moveset. I kek every time I poke my friend with Down-B when they play Lucina and do the exact same thing every damn time. Sure the character is skinny and wide but you're supposed to be a cold, calculated killer that reads people's movements.
Who knows. He plays like I expect a ruthless psychopath would, so there's that.
Space alien chicken skeleton
ftfy
Yeah, Ridley's Up-B sucks donkey dick. Only diagonal when facing backwards and can be poked by certain disjoints like swordies and gunners.
He's no Ridleybro, he's a a certified cuck who can't git gud.
>let's see if Ridley gets his fair share
Ridley can't be buffed. Unless his Fair acts like Falco's, Dair has less lag, UpB less startup and aerial speed increase, he will always be imperfect.

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>Pac-Man that high
WE DID IT PACBROS

All of his moves and movement is based off data from Mario. So expect literally nothing changed movement wise or normal moves wise, unless it’s unique to him. It hurts

>literally who female
>derailing smash discussion
ok retard

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Most of the game is played in the air breh.

>K. Rool in bottom
Eh so what, I still have a good time playing him.

>Bowser is faster than Ridley in the air, not ground.
Wait wait wait
So you’re telling me a fucking turtle is faster than a flying dragon in the fucking air

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>Most of the game is played in the air
>what is gravity

>UpB less startup and aerial speed increase
These and something to make dair actually worth using are all I'm asking for at this point. Also ground speed is great and all but Ridley's fastest option is a short range frame 4 jab. I'm not calling him bottom tier or anything, I mained him first 5 months of the game, I would just really like him to get some help because he honestly has more losing matchups than he does even

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Yes lol

You'd be surprised. If you chuck a turtle as hard as you could of course it's gonna fly faster than some bat-chicken who just hovers in the air.

Actually yes most battles take in the air. Everyone has better aerial attacks then ones on the ground with the only expiation I can think of is Little Mac

>literally who female

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>Pac Man that high
what changed? people used to put him pretty low. I love that smug yellow fucker, with I could be good at the game

buff his fucking directional air dodge. it's bad enough he has one of the fastest fall speeds in the game and is one of the lightest characters. Did they never to give him the worst air dodge distance? It's a better recovery tool than risking a side b half the time.

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If you take the time to learn the ins and outs of his projectile game he's great, and he can actually play the neutral game too because he has real good framedata on his tilts and aerials. Not to mention he has a great recovery game too

but isin't bowser's intial dash still significantly faster than ridleys run speed?

How to make Ridley fair:
>Fair is exactly like Falco's, last hit comes out on landing
>Dair has less landing lag
>Nair has more initial base knockback, scales terribly with %
>Up-B angles like Fox's but with 30-degree angles on diagonals instead of 45
>Side-B goes slightly farther, easier to escape at mid%
>horizontal hitbox is shrunk
>Aeiral speed buff, slight ground speed nerf
And if you wanted to make him even more powerful, just give him disjoints on all of his tail attacks. Dtilt, Ftilt, Fair, Nair, and DownB having disjoints would break his character dynamics so hard that people would abuse it to shit, moreso than Kragg Fair in Rivals.
Ridley has more friction, and has faster stopping speed. He can turn on a dime if you foxtrot, it's insane.

His projectiles are amazing, and he's one of the best campers/zoners in the game by far.

First remove his Super Armor Spam before buffing him

14 in Splatoon 1
18 in 2

Why is Sakurai so obsessed with making sure Kirby is shit in every game?

Get ricked nagger

This sounds like it would just make him less fun, also idk if even less endlag would help dair, it has a worthless spike that disappears after the first few frames and it does such little damage

Point and laugh at the cuck.

>every game
He was top tier in 64.

After he gets good aerials and doesn't have to rely on super armor to deal with disjoints.

>Spiking with Dair and not his Up-B
It even grabs ledge, what are you doing using dair offstage?
If another thread like this pops up tonight i'll be sure to poke my reptilian head in and give you the deets on how Ridley is supposed to be played.

I'm just saying what's the point of slapping a spike on the move if it's going to be so worthless? Downwards up special spike is nice if you wanna be cheeky at ledge, if the opponent is smart and has a decent recovery they will be able to avoid it because of how long it takes to start up.

>all characters minus Luigi have gotten some love with recoveries
*cries in Lil Mac*

tl;dr you're wrong and stupid and probably smell bad

Side B into Up B and return of directional airdodges all help Mac

Not enough to make him or his recoveries viable

The inability to use side b again after getting hit does not help

>and probably smell bad

I said I play pokken, not smash user

There is none.
It is just faster over slower really.

If you like Kirby you should be used to being a bottom

Than the playable characters yes, but she is the youngest of the NPCs aside from Spike's little brother and Lil Jud

Little Mac is my boy and the character I most wanted in the game. I ain't letting him forever being doomed to bottom tier stopping me from playing him.

she needs her shorthop to be about half as high as it currently is
she jumps too high for lightning kick to be a fast option as it just whiffs over people's heads
honestly that's a huge fucking problem in this game, I don't understand why they made everyone except for like 2 characters unable to use low aerials

I know this isn't what you meant, but Lil' Judd is canonically thousands of years old

I can't believe its possible to suck this much cock
Not shocking that this level of faggotry is present here in a smash tier list thread

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What are you talking about, plenty of characters can reliably use low aerials.
Olimar, ZSS, Joker, Bowser Jr., Kirby , Lucas, Ness, Shulk, Pikachu, Pichu, etc.

Christ op that list is an embarassement.

It's an aggregate of the top players' lists, it's not OP's.

Tornado is already a busted move so giving it less endlag would make it straight up busted. Making it travel slightly further while keeping the endlag the same would do wonders for the Doc. Oh and fix his fucking up-tilt for fucks sake.

what would you do to make him a better character?

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i mean what i said, shorthops in this game are too high
if you have to wait and use an aerial on the way down to actually hit someone with it that negates any good frame data you may have had as the move becomes telegraphed with when you're viably able to use it in your jump arc
a lot of characters needlessly suffer with it and i think it would go a long way towards making the game feel tighter and less floaty
not saying that there aren't any characters with good immediate aerials, just that they are the fortunate few in this game

Because he doesn't wanna appear biased after 64 Kirby happened. Didn't stop Brawl Meta Knight from happening though.

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Again, that ridiculous, all those charcaters I just mentioned can do a rising short hop aerial just fine. For a few more there's Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Marth and Lucina, Roy and Chrom, Pac Man, and Luigi.
Its either its not a problem or there are mre characters whose short hop jumps are perfectly fine than not, because absolutely no one, not even Melee players who tried this game out, has complained about Short Hop heights in this game. You're the first

If this is based on winning tourneys how is pikachu #1? Esam is the best and he is inconsistent af. Also is this international?

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It's based of top players' tier lists.

>Literally all he needs is to make Reflector kick have less end lag and his neutral will not feel as awkward

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First of all, reverse any of the nerfs he received.

>undo nerfs
>increase his air speed
>make back throw and up throw real kill throws at high percents
>reduce base knockback on forward throw for more followups
>give crownerang a smash input to throw it farther
>make up shot blunderbuss stronger
>raise belly armor HP to ~30%

Are we doing this?

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basically but also
>lower start up lag for his attacks.
This is the big one here. His start up lag for a lot of his attacks makes him way too easy to challenge, and the consequences for being on the defensive is really shitty.

>Pac-Man that high
I really doubt this. Is he actually that good, or am I just too much of a brainlet to play him?

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Falco is a functioning but fair Bayonetta

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pacman, on paper, has the tools for most every matchup. His biggest weaknesses are low range on his normals and a slow and linear recovery

>no interest in Peach or Daisy

Peach is a ditz
Daisy is the cuter of the two but she seems like a serial killer

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>if gay
>if

They fixed his downright atrocious grab from smash 4 and he is stronger, and faster overall.

Have you seen any of Tea's tournament games? Pac-man is really good.

You dont have to be gay to admit someone is handsome user.

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I haven't. I've only watched top 8s of tournaments, and I never see Pac in those. I can't even get into top 8 at my locals

Sure but I wouldn't say shit like "I'd totally fuck Jake Gyllenhaal if I were gay."

Unlike in Smash 4, he doesn't get completely invalidated by opponents who use his specials against him, since he has good normals now. He can also be very unpredictable in the right hands.

>He doesnt want to fuck Jake Gyllenhaal if he was gay.

>not fucking Ike

The game desperately needs more grounded anti-airs and a way to quickly move slightly forwards/backwards while keeping your attacking options. The former has always been an issue outside of a handful of dumb hitboxes and the latter is true in every game except melee

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Why is Ridley so low
I do really well with his kit

>and a way to quickly move slightly forwards/backwards while keeping your attacking options

This exists, its called walking.

This was top 8 at prime saga a few months ago. Tea hasn't been to the US since then, but he's still doing really well with Pac-Man in Japan.
youtu.be/7nwC9dHKdnY

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>quickly

there's a reason why literally nobody ever walks. It's all dashes, short hops, and empty hops

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What's wrong with dashes?

You can't act during them.

>tfw mained palutena and lucina since 4

DAILY REMINDER THAT YOU SHOULD NEVER CHOOSE WHO YOU WANT TO PLAY BASED ON A TIER LIST. PLAY WHOEVER THE FUCK FITS YOUR PLAY STYLE OR WHOEVER YOU LIKE THE MOST. DONT LET FAGGOTS ONLINE TELL YOU WHO YOU SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T PLAY. TIER LISTS ONLY MATTER IN HIGH LEVEL COMPETITIVE PLAY. IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN A TOURNEY WITH A LOW TIER NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIER FAGS WOULD CRY OTHER WISE

Now please give me a moment as I have to get this all in one breath. *ahem*

FUCK TIER LISTS
FUCK ZeRo
FUCK LEFFEN
FUCK MIKE TYSON
FUCK BALD BULL
FUCK TIER WHORES
FUCK NERFS
and most importantly
FUCK TIER FAGS

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there's a window where you can't act which means you can't use them for those situations where you need to move just slightly forward fast, which happens all the time in smash.

>palufag

Me too user, me too :3

being honest is better than being a shitter

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>Occasionally memed
fuck off underage

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I want to main Ken but every time I play him in a free for all, the muscle memory of my crossup shenanigans fucks me over in an environment where auto facing is now turned off. The auto facing mechanic is cancer and I wish I could disable it so I didn't keep becoming accustomed to it.

Yo K Rool is yucky good