Who was the best boss?

Yes there is a “correct” speech path to take to convince him to retreat.

Frank horrigan was the only ""evil"" one honestly. The Master and Lanius were just doing what they believed was best for the wasteland.

This. Horrigan was a dumb brute whose FEV-addled brain wouldn’t stand a chance to consider something like morality and nuance.

The other two had very clear and understandable motivations

>Fallout 4 doesn't even have an end boss
Looks like 4 wins.

Couldn't the master just start up a human farm to harvest super mutants from?

Frank Horrigan.

he wanted to make camps for those who wouldn't want to be super mutants
but they weren't allowed to reproduce

Master > Lanius > Horrigan
Master is just the best in everything. Motives, looks, presence, and his speech is really good.

I prefer Horrigan over Lanius because muh nostalgia + soul + think the Legion is the most retarded shit in the universe, but honestly Horrigan isn't really a boss, he's more of a final "fuck you" from the game. You meet him once or twice and then at the end he pops up from nowhere and gets fucked up by turrets.

At least you hear from Lanius throughout New Vegas, and although he suffers from the same things as Horrigan, he at least has a set purpose in the Legion, whereas Horrigan is just a "super speshul secret experiment" in the Enclave, he has no set reason to exist.

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your evolved humans are kind of shit if you need unevolved humans to reproduce, it'd never work in a grander scale

Wish there was a dialogue option to tell caesar his ideology is retarded and his empire is doomed to fail.

Yeah, and considering how well read he was, he should've known his Empire was doomed to fail.
The best faction is the Enclave. Wish there was a Fallout game where you can play as one of them.

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>"have sex caesar"
>caesars brain tumor makes his head blow up

They all sucked

At least meeting the Master at the climax of Fallout 1 is an incredibly cool moment, whether you fight him or do the speech option

>"old roman empire: soul"
>"the legion: soulless"

>tell caesar you want to quit
>he tells you to run away before he orders the praetorians to chop you to pieces
>"cope"

>the legion is retarded
this is you

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The entire point was an eugenic tradeover; His wasteland would not have normal humans in a generation.

The problem is that he was entirely divorced from the human element in his plan. The fact that Super Mutants were sterile entirely slips his notice because the theoretical FEV did not affect fertility: He assumed that when he won, he'd just need to wait 9 months or so for the celebratory carousing to bear fruit.

He never vivisected his "perfect" creations, because that denied their perfection. When he faces the flaw, he realizes not only that his plan doesn't work, but that it's a dead end. People think if he's a genius, he should have seen it coming, but the irony is that it's because he's a Genius that he immediately commits suicide: He knows immediately why they're sterile: The FEV is attacking the haploid cells from Meiosis as defective and potentially cancerous: FEV by its very nature makes complex carriers unavoidably sterile.

>The fact that Super Mutants were sterile entirely slips his notice because the theoretical FEV did not affect fertility

Yes it does and he should have known. Or his scientists should have known. Even the fucking Brotherhood figured it out. It's a huge plot hole that was created by the devs adding a "speech check takedown" at the last moment.

Actually, if you retards played the game he did check, it's just the FEV degenerated and attacked the females reproductive system, the Lieutenant's scientists found out about this and the Lieutenant hid that from the Master because he believed he could solve it with further experimentation.

You don't get it, Master should have know simply from understanding of how FEV works. ZAX also knew and he never did any reproduction experiments. It makes Master look like a huge moron.

million IQ "master" who fails to see that his "master race" can't reproduce
Everyone was lying to him that everything was fine

The flaw is literally invisible unless you actively vivisect them: You need to cut open a super mutant, open up their ovaries and intentionally provoke meiosis in the ovum. Only at this point is the flaw visible, as FEV "corrects" the "damaged" cells, leaving you with 4 inactive ovum that are absorbed inside of 24 hours.

A male supermutant's sperm does the same thing to an egg it attempts to fertilize. You'd literally need to be running a Super Mutant In-Vitro lab to identify this, and the Brotherhood figures it out because their research on supermutants is almost entirely based on autopsy, meaning they eventually caught this after killing an absolute assload of supermutants and eventually finding a female with ruined oocytes.

The Master literally would need to kill a female super mutant that, under all clinical conditions demonstrated proper ovulation to find out that the FEV manually goes in and fucks it up at that exact time.

While correct, the Lieutenant isn't capable: Again, that's the reason the Master kills himself.

FEV is actively hostile to sex cells. Super Mutants are therefore a dead end, and the Master's great plan is impossible.

Deathclaws on the other hand...

>The hairs on the back of your neck rise. You feel something from the corridor ahead. The bile rises as you recognize the mass of flesh ahead - human parts in the wall itself. The worst part is that it is moving, calling to you.
>Your nose starts to bleed. You hear voices in your head. They are calling your name. Darkness washes over your eyes for a moment, but you recover.
>A voice calls to you. You turn your head and see the image of a forgotten friend, obviously dead. The worms fall from her rotted jaw as your headache grows.
>It is getting harder to move forward. Your foot seems bonded to the floor. You look down, and the flesh of the floor is crawling up your leg. Teeth gnaw at your knees. Still, your headache gets worse.
>Something catches your attention, a flash of movement from the ceiling, and then a sliver of bone pierces your eye! With it comes the thoughts of the dead and tortured!
>The pain in your head is maddening. You feel the sins of others wash over your soul. And it gets worse, as your sins answer them. Like madmen, they fight through your psyche, and in the process tear your personality apart.
>Your head is pulsing with the intrusive thoughts of others. The pain grows and grows. Suddenly, as if it never existed, the pain vanishes. You fall to the ground and weep. But something does not feel right.

The Master by far, goddamn is that a creepy and emotional encounter.

Wrong.

Nah, you're wanting the Master to be a perfect intellect but flaws like that happen all the time
www.wired.com/2010/11/1110mars-climate-observer-report/
The Master as brilliant as he was ultimately failed because he was at the end of the day an imperfect being striving to be perfect through flawed means.

This, it's one of the fundamental ironies of his character that he sees himself as an enlightened god of a new race of men when he's basically an immobile perpetually-suffering schizophrenic fleshpile and would've been far more capable of success had he not totally justed himself.

The problem with this "flaw" is that it makes the whole thing black and white. You might think that the Master has the best solution for the wasteland, but nooo, turns out that everything he did is ruined because of a single mistake that he shouldn't have even made.

I'm literally putting together the gaps in the official material.

The Master had every reason to believe that his Super Mutants had escaped that flaw, since there is evidence of other FEV modified creatures that reproduce.

Any test beyond fertilization itself would function. They would even deliver the appropriate hormonal and biological responses.

Hell, the Oocytes themselves would even look fine until you examine the genetics and realize they're complete and therefore entirely useless.

Again, the Brotherhood would examine this sort of thing, since they aren't assured that by definition, the Super Mutants are immune to chromosomal damage.

Again. The evidence from the Brotherhood and the Lieutenant tell the results: Super Mutants are infertile. The Master himself however, is brilliant, and immediately knows the why.

Again, that's why his response isn't "Well fuck. Back to the drawing board; Time to get out the miniguns"; It's 100% over: He knows it, there's no way around it. The very thing that makes FEV create his perfect super mutants makes their reproduction non-viable. He needs to make Super Mutants without using FEV, or rebuilt it from scratch, both impossible after the bombs fell.

Queue Nuke: His dream is over, and he has no intention of living in that hell for a moment longer.

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Frank Horrigan was alright, but I agree it would have been more fun if you butted heads with him prior to the bossfight.

>implying that your 10 Int PC if absorbed in the Master's Unity wouldn't be able to realize said flaw and correct it
Apply yourself my man

I mean there is that encounter you get where he and a bunch of henchmen murder an innocent family, and then the security tapes where the btfos a whole vault full of deathclaws. But I agree in the sense that we don't really get much of his character, just that he's an unstoppable killing machine.

>I'm literally putting together the gaps in the official material.
There are no gaps, it's a plot hole added at the last moment.
>Again, that's why his response isn't "Well fuck. Back to the drawing board; Time to get out the miniguns"; It's 100% over: He knows it, there's no way around it.
The only good part of that scene is that he blows himself up (to show that the wasn't simply being evil for the sake of being evil). But it's still bad writing, because they wrote the Master as an arrogant super-genius and therefore he should have simply resolved to try and solve the issue.

But they did, there's a dialogue option where you can prompt him to do exactly that

Lanius isn’t as much of a retard as the game initially presents him. When you actually meet with him in person he is surprisingly reasonable given that the NCR and the radio call him a monster

>Best villain
The Master
>Best fight
Horrigan

There is no solving the issue. That's the whole problem.

FEV itself destroys Super Mutant Ovum. Human fertility and FEV are mutually exclusive.

If it wasn't for you, he was going to roll over the wasteland, and in a decade or so, kill himself anyways... Because Super Mutants are 110% a genetic dead end: They literally preclude reproduction.

And again, it only shows up on the ground level: Super Mutants reproductive organs are literally 100% functional, until FEV comes in and destroys the final product.

This bears out with the Brotherhood's examination: Super Mutant reproductive organs produce non-viable sex cells. The latent FEV ruins them, even if the Super Mutant's body is technically functional.

>that you see once before you fight
wrong. did you even play fallout 2?

Why do you constantly repeat yourself? I've already explained why it's bad writing. You're not saying anything new or relevant.

The Master > Lanius > Horrigan

Horrigan represents everything right (and wrong) with Fallout 2. He's funny and entertaining, but he also has no depth as a character and you have no real choice in how to deal with him.

Isn't the Master a psyker? He can read people's thoughts and has some kind of effect over super mutants. Shouldn't he have been able to know about it from that alone?

One doesn't even need to be a psyker to notice that none of those infected with FEV ever get pregnant.

>I've already explained why it's bad writing
Based indisputable opinion poster. I'd probably be digging ditches or something if it wasn't for you and your valuable insight.

I liked Horrigan being someone you encounter during the game instead of just meeting at the end but that's the only thing he has going for him

It's not an opinion. If it weren't a plot hole, people woudn't need to make shit up to explain it away.

It's not a plot hole, retard. The Master wasn't informed of the mutants infertility. That's how it was written.

No, your critique is based on the assumption that the Master is omniscient.

The Master can be an incredibly smart being and still miss something critical. I've explained to you the direct method that FEV is hypothesized to render SM's sterile, which is in itself is an edge case so obscure I had to review my biology textbooks to remember the proper terminology.

The reason you can talk The Master to death is because you can convince him to set aside his pride for a moment to re-examine the information and realize he fucked up.

That runs right into the pride issue: Even if he heard it from his subordinates, he'd assume they're wrong. The reason the speech check works is because you effectively present him with unrefutable evidence: His enemies know the SM's are sterile, his allies know the SM's are sterile, and forced to face these reports, he assesses them and concludes they're correct.

Remember, both of these reports are incomplete: The Brotherhood doesn't know the details, and his own people think it's still repairable. He's the one that knows from the evidence exactly what error was made, and from that, knows he's entirely fucked.

Master was well done, a fucking horrifying abomination mutated into a computer who believes in forcing an evolution to upgrade humanity only for it's failure to be his downfall
Horrigan has a fucking great presence in F2 but he comes off like a Bethesda character in lacking any motivation besides just being a master race fag and you only being able to fight him instead of using speech against him
Lanius has great lines for when you encounter him but he's more of a manifestation of the Legion rather than an actual character

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>The Master wasn't informed of the mutants infertility
1.See2.How could they possibly hide the fact that noone could get pregnant for all this time?

>I've explained to you the direct method that FEV is hypothesized to render SM's sterile, which is in itself is an edge case so obscure

What are you talking about, the game itself tells you why FEV makes people sterile.

Yeah, the same goes for Ulysses too.

I just want to play as a super mutant, they're the coolest concept. You could be an 80 year old cripple or an obese 20 year old manchild and you would still become a monster.

Maybe if the master searched the FUCKING test facility where he found FEV he'd see the research notes on how the scientists created deathclaws, and find out how to create super mutants that can breed, by laying eggs or something. I think super mutants are too cool of a concept to be sidelined like this. They're just orcs now and I hate it. I wanna BE one

>bro if you're west you can't be east
>ok we'll go away lol

He does. He tells you that he expects his empire to fall. Do you even know what an antithesis is?

Goddamn, Legion is just too high IQ for the majority of the bumbling regards who stumble into New Vegas

>"We're gonna win this fight"
>The Legion literally spent years trying to take Hoover Dam
>"But this time it's different, we are bringing in all of our military strength"
>If you waste all of your military force trying to take on the NCR in the West, you won't be able to hold your conquered territories in the East
>"fug"
I mean it's perfectly fine in terms of reasoning

What makes you think Richard knew everything about the FEV. The point is that it ended up that way. Even when presented with the facts, you still need to speech check him because his own ego gets in the way.

>The best faction is the Enclave.
Why do people say this?
They're so cartoonishly stupid in every game.

>Legion is evil for evil's sake
Up next, on shit redditors say.....

>What makes you think Richard knew everything about the FEV.
Because he had a neurolink with the Mariposa base computer and also did more experiments with FEV than anyone else?

Yes, but without any detail or nuance.

It's not like an SM's organs just spontaneously ignite. The Brotherhood states that the mutation makes them sterile, which conflicts with the Master's character until you recognize that they're operating on different levels of analysis: The Master is looking at the blueprints while the Brotherhood is examining the finished product.

Which is why it makes perfect sense that The Master doesn't think they're sterile: They function as expected, have all the necessary parts and produce the necessary hormones and cells. It's an unanticipated mistake that the latent FEV in a SM's body breaks the reproductive cycle.

He doesn't care that he hasn't gotten a SM child yet because he's still producing more than enough manpower with the FEV he has. The plans say they work; cursory medical examination says they function and there's absolutely nothing wrong with their genetics.

You HAVE to autopsy one to see the way the reproductive system is failing. Even a biopsy would fail, since the retrieved folicle hasn't been "fixed" by FEV yet.

You literally have to go in and say "Huh. This cell is entirely fucked. And any cell I activate in here becomes fucked too. SM's are sterile."

It's a simple enough critique of their plan: Even if they win Hoover, they need to win with enough forces to maintain control over their current holdings AND Vegas.

The conclusion he comes to is that the Dam is going to end up a Phyrric victory. He recognizes that as long as the Legion is healthy, they can always rally a force to take Hoover, especially in the future when they find a better opportunity where they don't have to strike the NCR at its strongest.

Not only does it huge ego prevent him from seeing the truth, but it'd prevent him from even considering that his grand master plan could have a flaw in it. He think he's perfect and incapable of failure. Also it could boil down to him just being plain crazy.

>Frank is evil
Are you people retarded?

>big roided up retard that is evil for evil's sake that you see once before you fight and has no relevance to the plot
Horrigan was a true patriot and he died for his country, have some respect!

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Who was the best quest specific "villain"?

>The Master is looking at the blueprints while the Brotherhood is examining the finished product.
Precisely because the Master knows the "blueprints" he should also know that FEV makes people sterile, like ZAX did. Also the fact that he never did any reproduction experiments even though enlarging his army was big issue because FEV doesn't work well on irradiated subjects is also a plot hole.

>They're so cartoonishly stupid in every game.
Because of poor writing if they made a game with a playable Enclave faction then there would be a chance they wouldn't be so cartoonishly stupid/evil Arcade Ganon's personal quest in New Vegas was really good and it gave the Enclave some more much needed character

It's Bethesda, the writing is gonna be poor for EVERY faction whether they're playable or not

Scorchbeast Queen.

>rad dragon with radioactive mind-control guano giving everybody zombie-toxo
What the absolute fuck were they thinking

I don't think they were thinking at all.