World of Warcraft is beyond saving

Pretty much have to wait for the current generation of MMOs to die before some D&D nerds go "Hey you know what would be a cool idea? D&D, but online!" Then we'll get a new generation of MMOs that aren't stuck with gameplay designed in 1999.

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Funny considering how everyone else manages to make games just fine
I think Blizz got cocky and thought they could shit on anyone and anything
I genuinely hope they sink at this point. It'll be the only hope to divorce their talented workers from the ugly mess the company has become, and it'll stop shit like BfA from ever being a thing.
>Ten (10) levels to work through
>literally nothing but a single talent point
At least there aren't cookie cutter builds anymore CONSIDERING THERE AREN'T ANY FUCKING BUILDS ANYMORE

DDO is very much a thing dude, it still catches fairly regular updates

Yet DDO is a typical themepark trash.

Good, maybe Blizzard can make something new instead of milking this for 50 years.

>It'll be the only hope to divorce their talented workers
What talented workers? nu-blizz has absolutely no talent. They all left after blizznorth got shut down.

How does a game with 800 people working on it manage to produce such vapid pisswater content outside of raids? What are they all doing every day?

Yo
Are there any MMO's that have no classes, only stats?

writing gay love triangles in their fps game

Runescape

Most of the game developers quit years ago, sure, but the art team is still one of the best in the industry, they're just being held back by shitty company politics and policies, with the marketing team kicking down their door every time they create something that might offend someone somewhere in the world.

Just look at HOTS and Hearthstone, HOTS is a love letter to blizzard characters from over the years and do them justice, but because its a shitty DOTA clone the art team is allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with it because they aren't a 'core IP'

But then you have hearthstone, which much like HOTS had a small team of interns who happened to make a game that got stupidly popular for no good reason, but now that its one of blizzards most profitable IPs they've been censoring it heavily, reworking old cards to rip out all gore and sexiness.

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Runescape, Haven and Hearth, Shroud of the Avatar, EVE Online

based
heart pupils are top tier

where's that Steve Jobs quote about how all the smart people got replaced by marketers because marketers are the ones making sales, but the marketers don't know how to make a good product and the company goes under? One has to wonder if any of that happened at Blizzard.

An mmo based off Magic the Gathering lore would be pretty fucking based imo

>(((marketers)))
based steve knew what was up

Not really, MTG lore is a clusterfuck, and right now the Lore is not in a good spot especially for an MMO.

The only thing it has going for it is planeswalking, thus multiple planes to explore allowing for infinite content updates that make sense, but at the same time they'll likely never flesh out the content to do any of it any justice

ah here it is, I found it
youtube.com/watch?v=-AxZofbMGpM

MtG lore is stupid

t. someone who just got back into the game after 15 years

Between the Ravnica 5e campaign setting book and what autists have explained to me about what's happening in Spark, it's fucking retarded.

realtalk: every single planeswalker, absolutely every single one, is boring as fuck generic herofantasy garbage that borders on being capeshit. the world's most boring avengers. plus it's impossible to get people interested in your lore when almost all of it is in book-form and your core audience ignores it.

WoW ruined an already heavily flawed genre almost the moment it was created so this is a good thing.

World of Warcraft ruined the MMO golden age. Shut it down and give me Warcraft 4 instead.

Im pretty sure right now blizzard is just a massive money sink for middle management of activision-blizzard considering they keep cycling in and out their financial management staff on an annual basis, and still pay them.

Also I am pretty sure blizzard is under the thumb of some 'esports' management team that is heavily restricting development of all their games to push for competitive games, which is why they turned WOW's end game into a speedrun esport, and spend a year destroying HOTS then dumping it after the 100 players who actually play HOTS quit because their characters kept getting reworked into oblivion and all the new maps and hero designs are designed around team fighting from level fucking 1 so that it would be better for esports viewership.

I wouldn't say that, I would say that WOW perfected the genre with its initial design but then ruined it by creating instanced dungeons.

Seriously, WOW was fantastic as an open world RPG because it had no fucking loading screens and could handle hundreds of people in the same zones, but then squandered the technology by forcing everyone to raid.

But MOMMY Azshara is worth saving.

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Riot will save the MMORPG genre just like how it saved the MOBA and the AutoChess genre

Saved his waifu queen and did some loving.

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God i wish that was me

Karn is okay. So was black rock guy from Scars. Garruk being an interplanar serial killer was neat as well.

You're right about everyone else though.

I just want it over man.

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My dream MMO is a fantasy world where your character starts as a blank slate, you get some introductory spells to choose from as your starter kit, and your way of acquiring new skills and spells is through tomes like in EVE Online. Traditional leveling wouldn't be in the game and your spells would get stronger through research and study, again like the Skills system in EVE.
I know people would inevitably find min-max builds to shit on people with but it would let people get creative with their characters other than the traditional 'This is your class and here are your spells' thing that's the standard right now.

I honestly think if they made a warcraft 2, it would just be a fucking one for one clone of some other MMO. My guess is guild wars 2.

WoW 2* whatever

WoW needs to realize where its strengths are and have been in the past. Its strongest content has always been raids and dungeons, especially M+, with PvP right behind. Questing is generally absolutely awful with Suramar being the lone exception. Leveling zones are only good for establishing storylines leading up to dungeons and raids.

Just remove the leveling bullshit and daily quest bullshit. Let people get into dungeons and raids right away, but maybe gate some of it behind small attunements in zone story or dungeon story that's actually difficult and relevant to the content you're unlocking. Kara's attunment is a great example, just not as stupidly long. Don't make it take 20 hours like leveling does. And FUCK daily zones like Naj and Mechagon. They're life-suckingly boring. Make zones all Suramar-style story with dungeon and raid tie-ins where necessary, or don't do it at all. And fuck it, since the zones won't have daily shit in them, turn them into giant battlegrounds for the War Mode people. Set objectives, let people go wild.

I don't know how you handle gearing (or a lack thereof), but this proposition is just my amateur way of cutting out the fat. After seeing story shit, I only ever log on for raids and dungeons, the strongest content. Which are easy to do without participating in the grind. I dunno, maybe leave some grind in for the Mythic people. Kinda like GW2 and its Ascended bullshit.

Ahh yes the indie company with a true heart for games.

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The whales don't care.
I still personally know quite many people who are still playing and, believe it or not, have fun chasing after mounts, pets and cheevos.
WoW lore surely has died a terrible, to me even heartbreaking death, yet the game itself is most likely still doing fine enough that it'll get at least one more expansion.
I personally just hope it doesn't and the servers will shut down when Classic interest will inevitably decline again.

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>Implying MMO's then aren't the same as MMOs now
Did you even play Vanilla? There was always a clear path for your characters depending on who you started with

What the fuck am I even saying, this is basically just Guild Wars 1. We need a legitimate successor to Guild Wars 1.

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I don't care, I've moved on. I got a good decade worth of fun out of that game, I don't need anymore.

>hey, Yea Forums went for the edited one
Well no shit, if it takes 2 years to release the original version of a game, the franchise has become shit. If the sheer mention of the original version being remade makes people more excited than current expansion(s), the franchise has become shit.

Why should they do it? They don't want to create a good game they want to make as much money as possible with as little investment. And it's working, WoW is a whale oriented game now.

>Strongest content has always been raids and dungeons
This is a big misconception.

Only 10% of players reached end game by the time TBC launched, roughly 400k players, and blizzards own metrics stated that only 50k would raid on a weekly basis

The subs started to drop in Cataclysm when they ruined the old world, removing the basic, simple, yet charming open world RPG WOW had going for it and replaced it with linear story telling that was designed to get players to end game as soon as possible.

M+ is actually not a good system, most people in my guild hate it, and i've had more then a handful of them quit over their weekly chest RNG, and PVP has been a trashfire since vanilla, and only has gotten worse the more they design it less like an MMORPG and more like a MOBA.

Removing leveling actually is a good idea, more specifically, removing leveling restrictions, 120 levels is a bad system when 90% of your playerbase is at 120, but 99% of your content is leveling content.

The main problem is daily/weekly goals, and a constantly shifting goal post, 120 now becomes 130 and all content from 120 becomes obsolete, fuck BFA tier 1 and tier 2 is already obsolete, thats how bad the system is right now, thats the biggest drawback of the themepark MMO, is they design everything to be a step, but then every patch make the step you just completed the baseline, turning it into a never ending treadmill that has no end, and no sense of acomplishment, only a jaded sense of 'what the fuck am I doing' as your gear you spent 100+ hours the last patch farming for is worse then trash gear

suramar was fantastic, for the first time playing WoW I felt like i was playing a real RPG

>The subs started to drop in Cataclysm when they ruined the old world, removing the basic, simple, yet charming open world RPG WOW had going for it and replaced it with linear story telling that was designed to get players to end game as soon as possible.
He says when in reality that is not the case, Vanilla always had the linear story telling and Catalysm had the open world RPG

>spent childhood playing guildwars1 instead of vanilla wow
>grow up to realize what a shitheap wow is
>no regrets

>only has gotten worse the more they design it less like an MMORPG and more like a MOBA
What does that even mean?

It was beyond saving 15 years ago.

(you)
Your choice of gear, talents, build, ect, doesn't matter, only what spec you choose to ladder with.

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I know that "wrathbabbies" is a meme but be honest, Wotlk was the pinnacle of WoW because it still had a shred of the old style of game design (like having a talent tree for one) while still being updated to remove outdated game design (like buffs being party-wide rather than raid-wide).

I'd also say that because it was the last expac to actually tie into existing plotlines from warIII and everything since has been them making it up as they go.

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>M+ is actually not a good system

Yeah, if you're the hamster on the wheel chasing the cheese. For gameplay purposes, it's fun as shit and really squeezes the class dynamics to their extremes. Which is why I suggested gearing basically shouldn't be an issue because people who DON'T like M+ are any other kind of gameplay feel cheaped out when they don't get good shit.

At some point, like I said in , MMO endgame should just be about accruing cosmetics from any source you like, and all the content should be really challenging and smart gameplay-oriented stuff rather than the shitfest grind of daily zones.

>old style design
went out the window the moment raids had multiple sizes/difficulties.
Cata also had talent trees fyi

cata forced you to full spec, it was the precursor to MOP's forced cookie cutter design.

While you're right that gear doesn't have much of an impact in PVP the build and talents you pick certainly does. A hunter who doesn't pick posthaste in PVP is a dead hunter
>everything since has been them making it up as they go.
Legion ties in Frozen throne, Catalysm ties into Warcraft 2.

Is it possible to be fucked retarded?

>Cata
>Forgetting the fuck up that was the old world destruction

Cata forced you to 31 point spec, which is completely different than the MoP trees that put individual points in direct competition with others

it was never good to begin with

You just proved yourself wrong.

A hunter who doesn't pick post haste in PVP is fucked, they have no other options, they're not giving up something good to take post haste, Post haste is literally the only option they have.

Its like saying Runes in League of Legends offer choice when in reality if you're a burst assassin, you take sudden impact, and if you're a bruiser you take conqueror, and taking something else is a meme.

Not even a Warcraft 4 can save this franchise cause you just have the same people currently working on WOW working on WC4.

It's still the same, a vast majority of the knowledge needed to progress in WoW is found off site. Instead of The Hotbot or Ion's site Elitist Jerks, it's now Icy-Veins, MMO Champion, and Wowhead.

WoW has always been dogshit about relaying useful info to players. Now that people are educated, they are aiming at hunters and warlocks for nerfs.

We need mommy Azshara and daddy N'Zoth to win and drown everyone and kill off WoW.
Sadly this, though I would love W4 that retcons WoW.

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Riot is unironically the only big company that's actually enthusiastic about the games they make and just aren't in it for a quick cashgrab or pushing politics

Well Dadd N'zoth won, and depending how you see the post raid cinematic he eater decided to eat Azshara or reward her,

>games they make
What games? TFT is the definition of quick cash grab.

based

I hope it's reward, considering that she did her job. At least I hope that's how it will go down. They make a nice villain couple.

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The devs liked playing dota autochess so they made a mod in the league client, you can't name any company with people who actually play games

Let me just pause here and take this chance to tell you about skill share.

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This is exactly what will happen once WoW Classic is a success.

>core gameplay isnt fun even slightly
>everything is still a get-to-endgame treadmill, where everything prior is treated like it doesnt matter
>story has gone off the deep end
>store mounts receive more care than content
>wonder why the game is bleeding subscriptions

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Wrong, talents don't affect you in PVP at all in current WOW, you take the best talents for PVP or else you're fucked.

In Vanilla I had multiple specs for mage for different kinds of PVP, cold snap for wPVP, pom pyro for BGs, and a fire spec for raid WPVP during world bosses so we could burst down the enemy raid with blast novas and sapper charges.

Now? You pick greater fireball and spam fucking greater fireball.

No shit, what made WOW appealing for most people wasn't fucking end game raiding, it was the 1-60 experience people got to enjoy, WOW was the casual MMO thats why it was so fucking popular because you could just log on with your mates and go fucking adventuring.

Really, the biggest complaint back in vanilla was that once you hit end game you had to raid, there was nothing else to do, if you wanted to PVP, you needed raid gear, if you wanted to do anything to improve your character, you had to raid, people bitched about it so much that they added in dungeon set 2, just to make the dungeon sets not trash tier.

Riot gives zero fucks about their game, League was always a cash grab because they wanted to make money off of dota but couldn't due to WC3 licensing issues. Lets not pretend that Riot are some kind of game developer saints, they're the scummiest company out there, using underhanded tactics to get their game off the ground in the first place.

M+ is awesome, especially for boomers without the time to organize big raids, but blizz seems intent on only half pushing it
>Blizz: "We want M+ to be a real thing!"
>Also Blizz: "But we don't want its gear to be good enough, so you still should be raiding instead."
what?

You fucking idiots

That's what Steve Jobs was! He wasn't a programmer or a designer! He was the original "idea guy" but he knew how to bully beta programmers into doing what he wanted.

Why do people think wow will ever be retconed? You have a better chance at being the human aliens select for finest contact

Seethe more dotabab, valve and blizzard became shit the moment their developers stopped playing games and lost touch with what people want.
Riot are still nerds who play games and watch anime, that's why everything they make is good and well received.

>Legion ties in Frozen throne, Catalysm ties into Warcraft 2
so just because the legion made the scourge, any expac with the Legion "ties into TFT"? fuck you're stupid. they mention Arthas absolutely 0 times in Legion, it has nothing to do with him.

>Catalysm ties into Warcraft 2
While war3 is a masterpiece, war1&2 are forgettable and frequently retconned anyway, their plot is totally irrelevant at this point (and was never anything more than "grr orcs evil" to begin with).

Except blizzard had the boomer market cornered in vanilla.

All the boomers quit because they made the game for fucking zoomers, speedrunning is the definition of zoomer game design

>open wow twitter
>open replies
>open profiles
>rainbow flags, pronouns, "its almost as if", hashtag resist, hashtag theresistence

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>Riot are still nerds
Riot is a company of marketeers who keep their games patched together with duct tape and elmers glue, League of Legends is 90% marketing, 10% game design.

>Riot are still nerds who play games and watch anime
imagine being so fat that you worship anime neckbeard gamedevs

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Blizzard and valve do way more marketing and their products are still shit.
Normalfags make shit games, like bfa.

>Thats why everything they make is good and well received
HAW, they didn't even fucking design league of legends, the entire original roster of heroes for league were ripped straight from dota-allstars.com

Thank fuck Shadowbringers ended up being good.

League of Legends is the very definition of a normie game, its the Halo/COD of MOBAs

Stay delusional dotabab, your shitty wc3 models named after anime characters were funny when it was a fan made mod but as an official game it's just embarassing

Don't try me lolnigger or I start a thread to shitpost about your garbage stale copy of dota.

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>normie
Whatever you say reddit tourist normalfag

The worst thing the blizzard could do to Warcraft universe is the "orcs were a good boys they dindu nuffin" retcon. Now they ar not an alien race of invaders that served their demonic overlords who fucked up multiple worlds, now they have the same rights no Azeroth and if you hate them you are racist.

Diversity hires

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since you're literally so young you weren't alive when it happened, lemme remind you that two of the most senior riot devs are complete fuckboys
>Guinsoo: universally reviled when he was head dev of dota1, made awful decisions and people were glad when he left
>Pendragon: deleted the official dota1 forums and replaced it with a league advertisment when he went to go work on league (instead of just handing the adminship over to someone else), everytime someone brings it up he not only shows no remorse but acts proud of it
Riot has literally never made a game that wasn't a ripoff of something else
>LeagueTFTBought a fighting game that was in development then canceled it
and since I am one-hundred percent confident your zoomer brain lost interest and stopped reading long ago: I love sucking cocks, I can't get enough of it, and when boys stick their dicks in my ass and whisper that I'm cute into my ear i can cum handsfree

Seethe more if you want, that's all you can do after all

>so just because the legion made the scourge, any expac with the Legion "ties into TFT
Of course not, But the TFT showed that the Burning Legion still wants invade Azeroth, and Legion follows up on that.

Wtf gay

#notmywarchief

Everything is a ripoff of something, or do you still want to call FPS games "doom clones"?

How do you even get into WoW? It feels difficult to try and immerse myself into the world, not to mention everything looks like jank to a point that DBM is mandatory.

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I'm playing wow for 10+ hours every day
still the best MMO out there

>he thinks generic "orcs r evul" plot is clever

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>and Legion follows up on that.
No, the "alternative timeline" Legion follows up on that. W/o "alternative timeline" Gul'dan, there wouldn't be any following up".

This. As much it hurts to admit. The only hope was Everquest Next, but corporate bullshit, once again, fucked it up and now it is no more. Society has gotten too impatient and addicted to instant gratification. No longer do people have the tolerance to farm something they need for a particular boss. They want to rush through and one shot everything.

>that's all you can do after all
I can play a superior game with 120 characters for free. Get back to grinding your inferior waifus cuck. Btw your trash game will die long before dota. Simply because riot. Hell even this fatass pendragon will die from cholesterol before dota.

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>How do you even get into WoW?
you dont

>dbm is required

Maybe for someone doing world first where every advantage matters but you can play the entire game without addons. The only addons I ever used were dbm checker spoofers.

That's a reeeeeal stretch there dude, by that logic Terenas Menethil is responsible for Varian Wrynn's death.

back in the day fps games literally were doom clones you zoomer

All the charm in WOW is gone in the newest versions of the game.

The original version of the game was 10/10, but was ruined with poorly designed updates that focused entirely around laddering and raiding.

The original dev team were designing WOW as an RPG from the ground up, but as time went on the people keeping the game updated focused entirely on mini-games and systems design that they completely forgot they were designing an RPG, its why the game is so jank now, why its unimmersive and nothing is challenging unless something arbitrary becomes too difficult to handle. The game is designed now with mods in mind, the mods play the game for you, the game is designed for the mods to do so, if you try to play the game as a game, its impossible to do so after a certain point.

>blizzard give 3 days of playtime
>play 4 hours and get bored
ebin
also why do I need to be full mythic gear to enter the new dungeon?

Why are blizzard destroying the fanbases for all their games? I don't understand it.

I think it needs to die actually.

u mad virgin?

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Are normalfags to be blamed for state of WoW's lore or is it mmo genre and decision to make Horde and Alliance in to player factions and these two large monoliths or just shit writers?

>Society has gotten too impatient
More like kids are way more tolerant to repetitive grinds. My MMO of choice back in the day was Conquer, a chinese grindfest mmo with literally no quests, your only way of leveling up was killing mobs. I've gone back to it a couple times and do enjoy it but it's mostly nostalgia, if I had never played it I wouldn't enjoy it.

It had its moments. It wasn't all bad. Staying up late on the weekend with some good bourbon and laughing it up with the guild while doing stupid shit was pretty fun. Too bad it's not like that anymore. Guilds are mostly dead or full of guild hoppers that stay for about a week and then poof on you.

Because the original developers quit over a decade ago.

Everyone left at the company are interns who have been promoted to fill slots they are not qualified to fill.

Have fun raging at cod then for being a doom ripoff

Mine was Everquest. We had Taiwanese farmers on the server that would literally 4 box and entire group just to farm the ever living shit out of everything.

Eternal Palace is a really cool raid.
Sad to see they already nerfed Aszhara, that fight was fucking awesome.

There is a difference between a repetitive grind for the sake of repetition, and goal oriented grinds.

WOW right now is a goalless mess, in vanilla we grinded furbolgs for fucking hours to get rep to buy recipes from them, but we had a goal, to get the recipes.

Now? The rep is there, you have to do it, but unlike the furbolg grind, you're only limited to do the same quest once a day, it takes weeks to get what you want from the grinds, and not on your time, but on their time, and then after all is said and done, when you finished that grind, its made obsolete and a new grind takes its place.

Thats the problem with modern WOW's grind, its repetitive for the sake of being repetitive, there are no new goals, just the same goals, a new pointless toy, another mount skin, another pathfinder to unlock flying you've unlocked 5 times over by now.

There simply is no progression to things anymore, just a massive time sink with no end, and no point where you can simply sit back and go "my character is OP" because your character gets nerfed, every, single, patch.

vocaroo.com/i/s0Ki7jID53LI

Stop bitching about WoW lore.

WoW's story is as good as a story without an ending can be. I mean it.

Not if you retcon everything every few months.

Stop lying to yourself and seek help.

Such as?

>Beginning of expansion
>Horde vs alliance
>big war
>Jaina starts to come to terms with her father, and how she betrayed him to help the horde recognizing it as a mistake
>not even a year later
>omg its thrall lets be friends again

There is no alternative timeline Legion
Well the elves blames Uther for their city

As an on-going game, WoW is simply too old for its own good. No king rules forever, etc.

realistic depiction of a woman desu

MMOs really are.
I think what you want is something that's like server-based couch coop, where you can bring a small group to explore and flesh out a dedicated world. Sharing maps, exploring dungeons distant and near, defeating monsters and perhaps rivals.

The problem is all MMOs are designed just to keep people paying into it without having to definitively end it, so basically all MMOs are fluff and filler.

She recognizes that betraying her father was wrong, she also recognizes that her father was blinded by rage and vengeance.

zoom zoom

MMOs before WOW were much more diverse, now they're all EQ clones and it fucking sucks.

Go figure the only MMOs that aren't super fucking dead are WOW, its latest clone, or MMOs that came out before WOW.

Shut up Benji

DDO (Eberron one) is one of few mmos that I liked.

Of course I'm fucking mad. League fags break my balls. This piece of shit pendragon straight up stole the game and made a worst version of it. A beautiful community driven project riot took for themselves. So many fucking faggots play league in my country. Deep down they know Dota is superior but lack the skill for it. They resolve to trashtalk which leads to them eating my fist because I'm not quite a patient guy. Anyway, kill yourself shitter.

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MMOs before EQ were all korean grindfests.

>vanllia was 10/10

This is how I know you didn't play it. The game was janky as shit. Going straight back to 1.0 without any general engine improvements, QoL improvements, or something new would be a mistake.

Eberron is the worst D&D setting though, well maybe not as bad as Korean Neverwinter, but still pretty fucking bad.

What edition of retcons you refering to?

tldr lmao seething dotabab

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>There is no alternative timeline Legion
Legion summoned by alternative timeline Gul'dan is alternative timeline Legion, because Legion had no means of invading Azeroth again, because we made sure of that in TBC.

I dunno, I like it. It's a weird take on WW1 and post war period.

the term is dotard lolbab

>legion summoned by alternative timeline guldan is alternative timeline legion
No its canonically not. Dont think too hard about it, game is fucking retarded

Ex-leeger, lost faith in HotS after it got skeletoned, can you give me a few pointers on starting out in DotA? I'm pretty familiar with MOBAs in general but would like to avoid rookie mistakes if there's any obvious ones.

or slavniggers as I like to call them

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Play with someone who already knows what the fuck they're doing.

Current DOTA is a clusterfuck, everyone abuses bugs made features that aren't easily understood by a new comer, and this is coming from someone who's been playing DOTA since 2005.

Leagues a dogshit game, always has been. Snowballed to the top simply because their meme proto mobile game was free to play at the dawn of the last decade. WC3 dota was superior, HoN was superior and dota 2 was superior.

Not that other guy. Your game is a festering tumor that is finally starting to break at the seams.

lol the virgin is mad

How do N'Zoth's and Azshara's kids look like?

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It'd be very cliche of him if he killed her instead of keeping his part of the bargain plus she finally started being relevant to the story of the franchise after how long would suck to just kill her off then and there But again it's Golden and she will kill off anyone who can possibly steal the spotlight from Anduin.

dota rng kills it for me.
i don't want to lose fights because of bad rolls.
lol has worse mechanics and having to unlock champs sucks but it's still more tolerable than massive RNG during fights.

playing the game...All there is to do daily in world of warcraft is fly around for 10 hours minimum to grind 1% drop rare mounts.

I feel you on that. On the hierarchy I place Old hon on top because of the reduced RNG dogshit.
Ogre magi is the biggest example I can think of, he was ported to HoN as the blacksmith and was still aids but stayed in meme territory; other RNG elements were reduced iirc.

WOW was fucked when they started to make it linear as fuck, which contrary to popular belief started in vanilla with its end game raid focus and lack of open world updates that weren't tied to raids somehow.

zoomers will say 'but the game was always linear because you just did it in a straight line using thotbot!' but thats not the fucking point, as game designers blizzard should be trying to fucking mask that fact and make the game fun to play without it feeling linear and repetitive.

But fucking fast forward and you log in every day to do the same quest to gather 10 bear asses, then log in the next day to gather the same 10 bear asses while some relevant to the expansion lore character magically kisses your ass with their talking head chatbox.

Its like comparing playing a game of D&D to listening to Legend of Drizzt audio books on repeat.

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lol nigger

We'll see who get the last laugh lolnigger. League is soon to be dead but Dota will live as long as Steam and China be.
>can you give me a few pointers on starting out in DotA?
Really hard to tell. First you should probably start by watching some games to get a little clue how things go. Then play against bots to familiarize with basic mechanics (last hitting etc). There is a mode to play with real people against bots which I think is rly good for beginners (and surprisingly active). Spam 1 to 3 heroes you like and find easy to handle. Personally spammed a hero called "Jakiro" for not less than 100 games over and over. Had an absolute blast despite no moba experience. That guy is a bit of a meme for us dotards but a youtuber called Purge does well explained and understandable guides about basics. It's a long road but don't give up. Once you start winning it feels very rewarding.
>dota rng kills it for me.
t. played one game of Ogre Magi

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Yeah, I also think killing off would be cliche. Why not have two power villains who have each other's back. So far it worked for them so far. Hoping they will survive but it can go many ways now.

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I never understood why competitive games have any form of rng. It's not exciting or fun when you win or lose a decisive team fight because the game decided to give you or your opponent a bullshit advantage that you can't properly account for.

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Why do we still have WoW threads?

dont waste your time in dota

League is still way more popular in China and will always be more popular, dota has been a walking corpse for years at this point there's not even a point in debating when will it die, it already died

WoW does not let you express your character or stats at all. Take LoL you have the freedom to be artistic with your champions stats. In WoW its all passive RNG bullshit.

>League is still way more popular in china
lmao, dota is the fucking starcraft of china, they view league like koreans view sc2, the noob version of their favorite game

>LOL you have freedom with your champion
No, you get banned for doing anything that isn't meta.

HoN balance was more like if Maliken personally didn't like it he would force them to change it

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>The original dev team were designing WOW as an RPG from the ground up
lmao

youtube.com/watch?v=ioQWkWj5_ss

I've seen that shitty panel and I still lmao at you.

zoom zoom

pathetic

>zoomers will say
Almost everyone I see defending modern WoW are thirty-somethings with families who "don't have time" for complexity.

Which is bullshit because the core demographic of WOW players in 2005 was fucking 28-32 year olds.

Why don't people play D&D online if they want stuff like good dungeons?

How will league make any kind of content if dota is dead? Hell they even stole fucking DotaChess LMAO.

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No shit Slowpoke. I only wait when Acti-Blizz will be hit hard with the lootbox and microtransactions ban.

Would take more after Azshara in case of daughters. Near identical to their mom. The sons would be more abominable male Naga with tentacles and extra eyes.

LMAO they're all retarded, WOW was the definition of a casual MMO and these faggots just wanted to raid 24/7 not realizing thats the fucking antithesis of what they were bitching about with their 'real lives'

Post Ulduar was the beginning of the downfall of WoW.. The decisions made going into ToGC and beyond were the setup for all the problems the game was going to have in the future.Cata was to make sure they could never remember the way things were before. Same for whatever is going to happen in 9.0 when they probably revamp the world again. I find it hard to believe they could keep going with another life cycle of Well put the War in Warcraft when its the most worthless part of the story at this point.

I think you may be the young'un here, because WoW was quite literally conceptualised and advertised as babby's first EQ.

>DUDE Ahegao face my wee wee is hard now

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Exactly, literally go and ask anyone under 18 if they play WoW. Be surprised if you find a single one.

You're legitimately retarded if you can't tell the difference between Vanilla and Cataclysm design.

>Hillsbrad Classic
>One of the longest treks a new Horde player will make, the town is over halfway into the zone
>quest chains all involve long, drawn out travel to reflect that you're going places, doing reconnaissance and entering dangerous areas
>the quest stories are small in the grand scheme of things but they all reflect the nature of the game: dealing with local threats, old threats from the previous wars/games and waging war with the Alliance against the backdrop of returning Humans trying to drive out Forsaken who are inhuman, but actually lived in the same land when alive
>yeah, it's linear. yeah, it's just a big chunk of the 20s. yeah, Alterac is actually a zone without that much going on. It's still all foreboding and feels good to explore.
>Big huge outdoor areas like the prison camp near Dalaran, the ruins of Durnhole Keep, the Yeti cave(it'd be recycled countless times, but for now..)
>Loads of hard and elite quests to encourage grouping
>big PvP opportunities, world/natural and the legendary town vs town clash

>Hillsbrad Cataclysm
>opens with a dank meme! You're a quest giver! lol! Here's a retard, an asshole and a faggot meme! RAINBOW UNICORNS LOL
>Flown everywhere because travel is scary, you might see something off the rails
>quests shotgun at you as fast as possible. Gotta level and get out of this content so you can endgame grind.
>Plants vs Zombie meme
>one mildly clever shovel joke in theme park quest zone where not even the mini-boss mobs are allowed to be dangerous
>standard bear ass quests left intact whew
>hamfisted Alterac war quest stuff where you casually nuke entire battalions with no tension at all
>Durnhold is just big generic elementals waiting to die
>le epic wacky meme NPC dies quest
>Alterac completely clipped
>world pvp dead forever via flight, streamlined questing, questing anywhere, server shards, pvp mode, etc

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wake me up when we get playable naga

Nah. It' funny though how despite being "casual" WoW is, XIV has yet to have a harder boss than Yogg Saron era, 0 keepers.

>WoW thread on Yea Forums:
>"OH MY GOD WOW IS SO FUCKING SHIT I HATE IT IT'S GARBAGE STOP PLAYING IT IM GONNA KEEP MAKING THREADS ENDLESSLY ON THIS"

>FFXIV thread on Yea Forums
>"OH MY GOD I LOVE FFXIV SO MUCH ITS THE GREATEST MMORPG EVER MADE, KINOBRINGERS DUDE, THE STOOOOORY MAN BTW I DON'T EVEN PLAY IT LOL I POSTED THIS INBETWEEN THE 2.5sec GCD"

thank you and good night

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>He says when in reality that is not the case, Vanilla always had the linear story telling

You should learn what a line is before posting again.

I agree that MMOs should focus less on the gear treadmill and more on the content, though when I was talking to my guild about such a thing, a lot of players expressed revulsion with the idea. They said they play to get better gear, that they recognize it's a carrot on a stick, but are happy to chase it anyway. For me, I'll tackle difficult raid content once for the achievement and forget about it until the next comes out, I don't have any desire to continually farm it for the next few months just to grab gear that becomes obsolete overnight.

Of course, I also think there's another valid way to build MMOs, and that's building them as actual worlds or sandboxes for the players to develop their own unique avatar in however they like. WoW has the major trouble that almost all characters aren't so much characters as pawns on a chessboard, every queen identical to every other, every protection warrior the same, etc. No one stands out from anyone else because all characters are just vehicles for completing content with, so the only thing that matters is how mechanically effective every character is. This sort of path just leads to homogenization and further reduction into a bland gruel with the only "identity" someone has is where they fall on the trinity.

I'd rather move away from excessively tuned content entirely and just focus on letting players build their characters however they want and having content designed with only the basics in mind. If this means one week warriors are going to outclass druids at tanking, so be it, or that warlocks get the ability to cheese a fight because a really niche ability is suddenly very useful, that's ok too. That's what gives characters their identities beyond the artwork their characters happen to wear, and the game is more rich because of it.

Weebs praising a mediocre MMO being slightly less shit then the previous expansion

vs

Non-Weebs bitching about a shitty expansion after a decent one

The real difference? If Shadowbringers was as bad as BFA the servers would be shut down in less then a year.

>they turned the entire redridge mountains into a fucking Rambo reference

Still mad

someone should invent an "MMO" that's only designed to hold about 20-50 people in its world at a time. a world just for you and your friends. there's so many limitations you remove when you do this, big ones that MMOs don't have, stuff like being able to build a house in the world anywhere you want and have other players see it, or having the environment undergo dramatic changes as a result of your actions (think like liberating a fortress and then said fortress is staffed by friendly NPCs).

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Gear is one of many aspects of character building in MMORPGs.

Problem with WOW is that the gear doesn't matter as a choice, it only matters as a wall to grind over, you pick the highest ilvl with the best in slot stats and you don't think about it at all

And while you could argue that WOW was always this way, I would argue that certain slots did matter back in the day, you could go crusader for max DPS potential, or weapon chain to prevent disarm in PVP, hell I kept my fire resist gear in my bags for arenas in BC just to shut down pom-pyro mage comps.

don't cross the river, fag

So rust/ark/atlas/all the other psudoMMOs out there.

Don't forget CSI westfall

You literally just described Minecraft.

Blackrock depths on the left until zoomers complained that it was "too long"

Gear would be fine if it was a horizontal progression. Pick this sword of fire because it gives you an advantage against some ice enemies, instead of giving you +3 auto attack damage. MMOs in general lost that along the way, now the only thing that matters on gear is the item level.

Weapon Chain is a great example of choice, it's a sub-optimal one for damage, but having someone try and disarm you only to fail and have to revert to a less effective strategy is a good design choice. It might work a lot, but if you're built around disarms, then you better hope you have a backup plan when it doesn't work.

>Uldum
>Teased as a giant infested titanic ruin in vanilla
>Turned into Indiana Jones and the Ayylmao Egyptland

ff14 fanboys are insincere pieces of shit.

Make sure to jump, add some fragrance, or water or you’ll ruin the Arcwine ok?

>decent one
Legion was a dog fucking shit, and people like you who accepted shit in it is exact reason BfA exsists in its current form

>Diablo mandatory ap grind
>Diablo rng legendary/artifacts
>Extremely dumbed down classes
>PvP gear normalization
>Scalling in a fucking RPG game, I guess initial suramar was too hard for some retards
>Dozens of other less significant, but nontheless important reasons

>I POSTED THIS INBETWEEN THE 2.5sec GCD
my sides

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Oh yeah all that stuff was shit, but Antorus was fine and Mage Tower was actually fun, giving you a reason to actually gear up for a change compared to BFA where all your gear from 8.1 is automatically dogshit compared to baseline gear from 8.2

a sub based model always produces the outcome you see in picture because continuous growth and need for money destroy their own foundation

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>rust/ark/atlas
ark and atlas are supreme garbage and you should feel bad for even mentioning them.

Ultima Online.

>>Extremely dumbed down classes
I won't forgive blizzard for this over everything else, every spec is now the most generic builder/spender it's embarrassing. you can actually just spec out of your builder as demonhunter and just have a one button rotation. absolutely pathetic.

legion wasn't great but just having the mage tower and Suramar has still made it the best xpac since wrath

literally all FF14 expansions are worse than BFA.
ff14 players are just used to trash. they literally celebrate the removal of content and smaller content patches.

No I recognize they're supreme garbage and why the psudommo model fucking sucks.

The pure sub model is the best model, but it isn't sustainable, F2P, and B2P has too many drawbacks, F2P requires you to spend all your dev time on F2P assets or monetization schemes to keep your developers fed, while the B2P model dies in a year.

IMO the best model is limited F2P with unlimited Sub play.

Dude, FFXIV players praise their game when the UI is a trashfire and the spell animations and effects are a massive eyesore

they're supreme garbage because the developers are talentless greedy fuckers. one developer making a bad game doesn't spell doom for the entire genre smoothbrain

Legion would have been a great expansion if they did only a couple things:

>toned down titanforging
>gave you a chance to target which legendaries you wanted

game would have been 8/10 if that happened

>Gear would be fine if it was a horizontal progression.
The only time gear works in this situation is if there is another form of advancement in the game Usually its some pvp game where the PvP has its own form of power gains. In pve more often than not it just inflates whatever the new set of gear is.

a weekly cap on AP gain would be nice too.
hardcore guilds literally grinded themselves to death.

Legion had the same problems WOD MOP and Cata did for sure

But it also had a ton of content that tried to challenge players, like mage tower or secret hidden stuff like taming Fenryr requiring you to solo up to Fenryr as a hunter on mythic difficulty.

Legendaries were also the best itemization the game has ever had, but yeah it was dogshit that they were stuck behind a bullshit RNG system with no way of getting what you needed, it was so fucking bad that people were litterally rerolling just to reset their bad luck protection because getting sephuz during the first tier was automatic benching.

So very true. Girls that do this shit is major cringe

>one developer making a bad game doesn't spell doom for the entire genre smoothbrain
And yet mmos have been fucked ever since WoW released.

That was the biggest selling point for EQN for me, they were designing the gear without levels or stats, instead gear had modifiers that would affect your different abilities based on keywords, and you could chain effects to build wildly different characters

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WoW on suicide watch

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You know, he's really just acting like a player. Which is what you'd want in a dev, isn't it?

I don't think tinkering around with the monetization model will do much in the long run because the main problems of MMO's stem from outside of video games. People losing faith in religion and growing nihilism is one of those factors.

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t. gook

lol

trying to remove the trinity was what killed many retarded mmos instantly.
the trinity is only natural for a team based game.
even in games where you dont have it enforced it ultimately gets played.

what they should have done is make the interactions between the roles more fun. make it so that threat isnt just a tank and spank thing.

>wow will never get an expansion with lore on par with wrath, and gameplay on par with mop
>instead it will continue to be dumbed down, and the story will just be nonsense. Gotta keep milking what's left of the playerbase!

Feels bad, man.

Are there any good sci-fi MMOs these days? Something like Anarchy Online or Neocron 2? I'd even take a decently populated private server.

I would say "bring on Warcraft IV and be done with WOW", but seeing the absolute state of Blizzard right now, maybe it's best to leave The Frozen Throne as the lastWarcraft RTS game

We've had online games that didn't involve the trinity at all, the notion that every MMO needs it is stupid and needlessly crippling.

wrath lore was trash.

How come these new devs want to remove all freedom in the way you control your characters stats,abilities, speed, gcd,talents, gear customization? Also how come in 1 vs 1 in WoW duels went into sort of a card game mode where it was sort of a fast paced strategic battle of skill, luck patience and different builds you brought along for different 1 vs 1 to BFA 1 vs 1 duels where it just random procs and some over powered companion that even if you kill instantly resses.

Ye great games like... Elder Scrolls Online and GW2 ! Kek

combat in WoW is like this

RnG trumps all so if combat in WoW was in FF. The battle would be set to auto and the cool thing would be watching all the random procs you get from Azerite and talents.

if WoW combat was in FF before BfA it would be about timing, setting up one hit combos, how you prepared for the fight with stats gear etc and positioning.

This is why Raiding in BFA isn't hard just a plain gear check most of the time.

>World of Warcraft is beyond saving
well the wow lore is fun now

Best lore compared to any other xpack

lmao

>natural
>boss attacks carefully tuned so that tanks can survive them but everyone else can't
>intentionally incorrect threat ratings to force monsters to attack tanks, the objectively least threatening targets
>time limits on all raid bosses to make dps relevant
>all of the real variety in boss fights comes from unique mechanics that have nothing to do with trinity mechanics
Combat roles may be natural, but there's nothing natural about the holy trinity.

The trinity only exists in games that play like Everquest.

This is the primary reason why MMOs haven't evolved since 2004, WOW made the everquest clone popular, everyone since then has been copying WOW, thus Everquest, and its basic bitch fucking tab targeting monster AI.

Its why every "next gen" mmo thinks its improving itself by telegraphing groundfire better, when in reality groundfire is a crutch of monster AI being stuck in the fucking 90s.

An the trinity is a result of this poor game design that should have evolved a decade ago, but we're still stuck with force trinity systems.

fuck off golden and stop putting jaina in every cutscene

What would you do to avoid this standard tho?

Everquest got it right. Why WoW thought it could change it I don't know.

it is natural.
in any setting where you have squishy supporters and damage dealers that want room to breath the more tanky players will try to get the targets attention.
support characters hiding behind their bulkier partners is something you even see in real life.

>a new generation of MMOs that aren't stuck with gameplay designed in 1999
Instead, they'll have gameplay design from the 70s!

the trinity exists in tons of games lmao.
mmos that are absolutely nothing like EQ like Ragnarok use it.

isn't that what NeverWinter nights was? The 90s version.

No one made that game in 3d with MMO attached to it.

Everquest made great use of support classes like Shaman, Druid, and Enchanter.
Why did WoW not adopt this key feature? It's all tank and spank while maxing out DPS. That's it. No crowd control, buffing, hasting, debuffing. Sad, really.

WOW did have this starting out, but it lead to 'unintended behavior' specifically class stacking, but class stacking was more an issue with the fact that WOW was the first MMO where you could only bring a set amount of people to a raid, which was fucking retarded.

WOW was designed with all those things in mind, but because of class stacking people stopped bringing support classes and healers the better the raid got at killing a boss since the faster you kill it the less mechanics you had to do.

wow always had those things.
are you stupid?

Not during the beta.

It was the biggest gripe fest with the launch version of the game, most people don't realize it because most vanilla players didn't experience end game.

It was such a fucking random choice too, the forums was nonstop bitching from guilds transfering from EQ to WOW that the game was 'dead on arrival' because you couldn't bring your whole guild.

Funny enough everyone adjusted, but every expansion saw the death of guilds and servers due to the lowering of raid sizes,

I think you misread my post or the post I replied to.

>still believing Icefrog is one guy/a real person.

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Pretty much Neverwinter Nights proved that MMOs could be incredibly successful and lead to the creation of the first 'true' MMOs like Ultima Online and Everquest, Neverwinter Nights was pretty much the stepping stone from MUDs to MMO.

Literally doesn't matter and not caring at all

WoW was beyond saving ever since MoP or so when they removed talents.

imagine crying about that of all things and not the actual harmful things they did to the game like basically everything that was introduced with TBC.

Removal of talents was a harmful thing though.

nah. not in a bread and butter game like WoW where everybody picked the same builds always.

DDO is a nice game but it's deader than a doornail and the jewery of the cash shop is obscene. They factored in the ability to grind for currency and charge triple.

Imagine you play D&D with a DM and that DM was a pretty cool guy and his setting was fun, and his DMing style was open but fair, allowing for some bullshit to slide in the name of fun.

Then your DM quits and you guys have a rules lawyer take over, thats what happened to WOW.

WOW could be salvaged, but not when Ion Hozzikostas and his beloved speedrun esports meme festers within the game.

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cope harder your game is dying

single digit IQ zoomer opinion.

Yeah, every brainlet used cookie cutter builds, so what? Guess who had fun with talents? The people who were building the builds. Trying new things with different gear.

The removal of talents was simply the evolution of the game the interns of team b wanted to take the game, because its easier to balance everyone using the same abilities with no choices what so ever, rather then someone breaking the game and 1 shotting a boss and getting banned because of it, causing community backlash.

oh yeah lets keep a broken system intact so that five theorycrafters on elitistjerks have some fun for a day lmao

I bet you play righteous fire and arc witch every league on POE.

I dont play garbage like PoE

all of that leveling stuff will remain because activision needs people to be playing and subbed for predictable amounts of time.

Also why there is an RNG system to the residuum, they can make an estimation on how long it'll take for players to roll the right pieces for their sets - until the next content patch comes out.

This post hurts me on a spiritual level.

WoW would be saved if they let me marry and impregnate a Night Elf.

Questing suffers from a dire need of filler content to stretch out the players attention. Without filler players would power through the raids and get bored after two resets.

T. Lost several guilds to people getting bored two resets after progression ended

not defending either game i think they're both complete shit as is the entire genre: but how is a giant spider an original design? no one `stole` that design from anyone it's just a big fuckin spider

Just bring back whoever was lead designer in MoP and take Dave Kosak back from Shartstone.

There fixed.

more like the sheer audacity of dota niggers bitching about anybody stealing anything when dota2 is literally ugly bootleg warcraft.

No wonder, poe too complicated for average "talents were deep" lie baiting downie.

But user, MOP was the worst offender of all of this shit.

*werent

leveling content is flawed when it comes to player retention because its too limited, really.
even in vanilla you could expect some random nobody to reach endgame in like three months tops.
vanilla WoW had to last for like three years. big flaw of the game. they shouldve thought of more ways to send people into the world even at endgame and not just into max level areas. thats the problem with expansions too. new expansion comes out, all the old content is useless. then in that new expansion the leveling zones are useless too so you only sit in your endgame areas.

Deep down Ion knows fun.
Ordered structured fun.
The Titans would be proud.

>youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ
Bring back Jeff from Overwatch and put Ion in charge of raid design

>click on mook to kill too complicated
lmao

Whoever came up with this sheer fisting of an encounter can go fuck themselves. Do me a favor so I don't waste my guild's time on this kind of jackass shit-fest again, send me an email at [email protected] when you decide to A) Implement an encounter that wasn't designed by a retarded chimp chained to a cubicle A.)Get a Quality Assuarance Department C) Actually beta test the fucking thing and D) Patch it live. And please for god's sake -- do it in the order I laid out for you. Don't worry, I won't charge you a consulting fee on that one. And for good luck you might as well E) Pull your heads out of your asses. While you're at it rename the game to BetaQuest since you've used up you're alotted false advertising karma on the Bazaar and user interface scam of '01.Fix the Emperor encounter. Fix Seru. Rethink your time-sink bullshit. Fix all the buggy motherfucking ring encounters (I suggest you let whoever made the Burrower one do this since that dude apparently laid off the crack the rest of you were smoking). Fix the VT key quest. Fix VT (just guessing it's fucked up considering your track record). Don't have the resources to fix this stuff? Move the ENTIRE Planes of Power team over to fixing Shadows of Luclin AND DO IT NOW. If you don't fix Luclin, you jackassess will be the only ones playing the Planes of Power.

MoP was only the best part of WoW.

>Mob is God.
>God is Mob.

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Called it

shut up brainlet your game is for retards lmao

I want to marry and impregnate a Draeneim

>Original design
CHARACTER design, yes of course a spider is quite boring. But gameplay design? Broodmother is a very interesting one. I invite you to take a look at her spells and effect if you are a curious person :
dota2.gamepedia.com/Broodmother
She feels and play like an actual spider. Crawling out of nowhere on her web and swarming with her lings army. She's widely different from any other hero.
Such a clueless opinion from somoene who never touched Dota 2. Nothing suprising coming from Yea Forums. Dota mechanics extended way far beyond Warcraft III had to offer with heroes. Note that a lot of designs were created by the community under the dota-allstar forum. Fatass pendragon (who owned the forum and nothing else) betrayed them and stole people's imagination without giving any credit. It is far more disgusting. In the end, DotA pumped mostly character designs and lores but not much for actual mechanics.

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I love Lanaya!

No, it doesn't, and didn't.

whats the point of posts like that

Me too !

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Private rp wow server did that. Might be even still around. They create their own custom crafting profession that let you place 3d object into the real world. A house would be you placing a shitload of wall elements + door,decoration... . Was even better than minecraft in a way since they were all 3d objects with detail and not just blocks.

>her laning power got nerfed hard last patch before TI
Why live

Why are dota fags so obsessed with lol and warcraft

fuck off back to your chink game retard, dota is the superior one of the two

Obsessed

Let's not talk about it... The deny nerf really hurts my feelings

Seriously, it's literally the apocalypse and nothing happened, not even a worthwhile cutscene.
At least cata tried.

Is there any good Azshara porn now?

Just euthanize the fucking game already. Imagine giving a fuck about WoW in the current year.

I maintain legion was only seen as good because of how shit WOD was

>15 year old game
>save it
Just, make something new? What is going on with Blizzard, did they forget developers are supposed to make games?

So I downloaded the starter edition and have been trying it. I'm playing as the werewolf race. I'm level 8 and it hasn't quite clicked yet. There was this one part where I was on a horse and the fucking thing had a mind of it's own. It was all over the place jumping flying through the fucking sky. When will I click? Is the full game better?

sequels to MMOs almost never work and blizzard is a slow company.
and they are clearly creatively bankrupt on top of that.

depends on the class and everything. bad thing about many mmos is that you start off with fuckall skillwise. that makes sense in a progression type of way but it also scares off many beginners because they think thats all there is to the game.
I'd at least try to finish the Worgen starting zone or maybe try another race. Worgen got added really late and their intro zone is very railroaded and cinematic.

M+ is AIDS. It and the timer run counter to everything I enjoyed in Vanilla/BC/etc.

Careful pulls, strategy, people not shitting their pants over wipes, no random mechanics bloat that just amounts to "Kill the trash faster or you wipe", "Kill the trash slower or you wipe", or "move away from a bad thing which either is easy or impossible depending on the zone".

desu the wow trial needs to have the level increased more(if they haven't done it already) you really aren't going to see much of anything at level 20

it is careful pulls and strategy though.
its all that taken to an extreme. there was literally no reason to improve your approach in old dungeons because nothing pushed you.
we used to do self imposed timed runs in TBC heroics though for fun though. basically turned every dungeon into shattered halls or modern m+.
once we also split up our raid roster into two groups and we raced through karazhan. its fun when time is a factor, especially when its so goddamn easy otherwise.

So great infact that the subs dropped by almost 3 million during the first few months. The launch was fucking horrendous. They fixed most of it during the isle of thunder patch but the damage was already done and the game never recovered from it

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>muh sub numbers
literally only retarded wrath babbs think like that when that expansion was awful.

retail wow is all about endgame which is literal 50+ hours away
classic/vanilla wow is much better for the early game with its much harder mobs/talent trees/rpg mechanics

A lot of that can be attributed to the downward trend that came during Cata.
Month to month data would be more useful rather than the quarterly reports we used to see, but that isn't something that can be checked. Census addon data helps but it's not accurate - great for identifying trends however.

Not him and I don't think MoP was the high point of WoW but i do think it was the last time the game was remotely fun.
Wrath subs were absurdly high and there was no way to keep that going.
I feel like late wrath/cata/MoP all feel very similar gameplay wise, whereas WoD completely shifted everything and has more in common with Legion and BFA. But that's just my gay opinion.

Is lanaya a trap?

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>Then we'll get a new generation of MMOs

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WoD was the first expansion that started removing shit.
You could argue that it was required because some classes like monks needed more than 40 binds to raid but they didnt just stop with that, they continued removing shit with every following expansion.

It sucks. MoP classes had amazing utility tools.

Wrath had Arthas which drew in a lot of old Warcraft 3 fans to the game. MoP dropped the concept of expansions having a big bad in favour of memepandas which no one wanted or asked for.

There was some pruning in MoP but you're right, not on the scale as the WoD pre-patch. It felt like an entirely different game overnight.
True that MoP is pretty removed from vanilla/tbc but the changes were more gradual leading to it.

I honestly thought at the time that the end goal was WoW on consoles but i think that would have happened by now if it was the plan.

yeah its clearly better to have a bad expansion with some meme reference thats handled terribly rather than a quality one that comes with something original.
I know that the average brainlet thinks like that.

WoW is too fucked to ever run on consoles, really. The game is a coding mess.

no
that meme is retarded and literally only began because she says my secret when shes talking about hidden libary or something
She did get fucked by juggernaut tho

MMOs are dead give up.

I'm glad we can all agree on MoP having none of the latter

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I'm sorry that you missed out on the peak.

Why are you WoW players always so obnoxious,generally only replying with insults without even trying to explain a point,is it because you are so young? Is it because you don't actually play the game and just parrot what streamers say? I don't get it.

The timer is anti-fun. It's all the GOGOGOGOGO shit that made running anything else after WOTLK pure distilled aids. Mashing your rotation even faster to mechanics bloat isn't difficulty, it's fucking tedium. Especially when you tie rewards to it.

I want to marry and impregnate a Night Elf, Blood Elf, Void Elf, Draenei, Lightforged, Human, or Gnome.

Sauce on that claim
Jugg is a manlet, she wouldn't date him

mashing your rotation slowly because of a lack of mechanics with no pressure is definitely not difficulty.
timers and dungeon levels are the only way they actually managed to make dungeons challenging after clearing them once, which was always a problem with the older expansions.

>saved by making the most braindead version possible

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Making trash and bosses more deadly is fine, the timer sucks. I'm not budging on this. It fucking sucks, especially when dungeons are designed around it but not tested.

Every season we've had affixes turn out to be completely busted in random dungeons because they flat out don't test shit anymore. How many times have we had to wait for fucking Ion to run a dungeon with his guild to find out affixes are busted for them to get fixed? The answer is a LOT, just about every hotfix to affixes in specific dungeons has been timed to basically a day or two after fucking Ion running them.

>is it because you are so young?
Yes. I can't imagine anyone from vanilla WoW being so cucked that they would still be playing this trainwreck. Instead you have zoomers who fondly look back at kungfufuckingpandas

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affixes are a different story. I think many of them are straight up cancer.
many shit on certain classes so hard you might as well not bring them and thats just not cool.

Yeah, but it's still going to be a long, long time before the game dies.

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mop was only the best expansion.
wallace and gromit sucks btw.

from a gameplay perspective MoP was objectively the best expansion, it's a shame you got triggered over fat bears too much to play it

>favourite game dies because the devs acted retarded and crowbarred in systems that would never fit in
>other favourite gets killed because people misunderstood what it was and labelled it a ripoff on day one
>friend tells me to get back into WoW with him
>now its dying faster than ever
can I catch a break, just once?

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I know a girl who sent my friend a Snapchat of her playing WoW, and I saw and was like oh ask her if she's into BfA, or excited for classic etc. and the response back was 'idk what that is, I just play as the hot elf'. this is the audience for retail now

False. This is your final (you) btw.

the cash shop is absolute bullshit yeah.

>Wow thread
>barely any porn
Yep gaems diening

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I need to breed with the Aspect of Life after marriage.

>now
that was always the WoW audience.
how do you think they reached 12mil subs

He's right. I expect WOW and XIV will continue on because they have such legacy and power but there's not going to be another big MMO.

I wish I knew why WOTC hasn't done an NWN3. I'd be on that shit like mad. It is tailor made to the present era:

>Steam workshop allows easy transmission of modules, mods, ect.
>Improved internet and hosting makes file size not an issue
>Improved technology for DMing
>Popularity of podcast D&Ds and letsplay streamers.

I don't like the podcasts, but the ability to have mini MMOs run by individuals or groups of friends or whatever where you can directly DM and take over NPCs and all that shit has me salivating.

DDO Dungeon
youtube.com/watch?v=5zxuC0ptca0

FF14 Dungeon
youtube.com/watch?v=ilEd0asQRnA

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What if they took the common enemy meme too far and removed factions from WoW entirely?

This

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They are in 9.0.
Not sure if that even still counts as leaks anymore since it's all but confirmed.

>alexstraza

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dark willow line, she literally girl talks with the other heros about how much she wants his manlet dick again
deal with it

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>Pick tank class
>Expect to do typical tank things in pvp
>A 2 second speedboost on a 45 second cooldown
>1 cc move on a minute cooldown
>No damage
>Enemy can just ignore me or walk away in combat

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>Annoying narrator voice literally handholding you through the dungeon

That's a YIKES from me

>that's why everything they make is good and well received
Is that why League is unbalanced constantly, the community is devoid of proper interaction and they're facing employee protest due to harassment and mismanagement despite being "diverse and inclusive"?

Fucking gross...

Its was recommended. But you could always make hung and handsome night elf chad to visit all those dwarf ladies in Ironforge and quest there instead.

>Riot
>Literal Esports Junkies
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

8.2 did a lot to improve the game desu
if 8.3 introduces the level squish, removes titanforging, overhauls class design, removes gcd & introduces tier sets for raids, i would consider it "saved"

but i think in general people are getting burned out on WoW, it's 15 years old now

It's too late for WoW on Consoles, FFXIV already stole it's cake on that front

But if Blizzard has destroyed class design & introduced the GCD for a planned console release, i think that would be the death of WoW, the backlash from that would be hard to recover from

Holy fuck that made me laugh.

WoW was beyond saving as soon as TBC hit, people just didn't fully realize it at the time.

>massive world now totally irrelevant, only outland now
>flying, minimizing interaction
>stream lining
>daily quests
>adding dungeon difficulty with """heroic""" dungeons
>arena focus instead of world pvp
etc. etc.

Only got worse with wotlk and never stopped.

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>massive world now totally irrelevant, only outland now
This has been a problem with pretty much every MMO every made, rest of the points are spot on.

just need to remind everyone this is still the worst opinion in the entire thread

>This has been a problem with pretty much every MMO every made
And that's why every MMO ever made is now irrelevant or soon will be.

>This has been a problem with pretty much every MMO every made
Maybe they should learn to add content to the existing world in a way that keeps players mixing in with each other.

Would this being real save WoW?

oh please if WoW launched on consoles it would eclipse FF14 easily.
FF14 is such a nonfactor overall.
its just too late for WoW on consoles because nobody gives a fucking shit about WoW anymore.

God I wish either of those were me

not necessarily.
ragnarok online kept old content relevant by giving even shitty mops desirable loot.

>the game[s]
They have literally only made a SINGULAR game, user. There are no "games". And plenty of their characters exhibit current politics, and they most certainly did from the very beginning implement more and more ways to make league more of a cashgrab than it already was. If you look at the forums the popular and current use of "toxic" started coming from Riot themselves which spread to the community. You are a complete gook sucking retard if you think Riot is a great company.

That's been the case since cata when they revamped the whole game to cater to non-players.

It's kind of sad that the wild west of mmos is over.
WoW, maplestory and ragnarok online were basically experimental when they released.
But they all had one thing in common: the creators were more concerned with making good games than good monetization schemes.

God I wish iRO had the option of sub only servers again.
No renewal, no cash shop shit, no gacha shit, no heroic backpacks or whatever the fuck broken gear people are using now, and that paywall to keep out 95% of bots and money sellers.
But that makes far less money than selling people participation trophy gear cause everyone has to be a winner, for a price of course.

>Someone who has never played pre-wow mmos.

>remove all the fun and creative elements
>dumb down the classes to a point where some of them are 1-3 button classes (Arcane mage is literally 1 button in PvE)
>introduce the cash shop to get the journey part of characters out of the way
I hate what they did to the game.
its a shame they havent killed off all the good characters just yet, otherwise I would have dropped it.

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but arcane was always the one button spec

its still dumb even now that there's more of them

Runescape fixes this

Yes but to bring up Arcane as an example of it is dumb. Besides, one button classes have existed since Vanilla.

>adding dungeon difficulty with """heroic""" dungeons
How is this a bad thing? It helps keep dungeons relevant by allowing them at max level rather then run once while leveling then forget.

The King is dead, long live the King.

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Vanilla wow was better about this in just about every way. Bosses wouldn't 1 shot anyone but clothies generally but what made you a tank was being able to never be crit, or crushing blowed. Threat was also much more important considering that a DPS going full out could pull aggro off even the best played tank if they were dumb. Rage timers weren't standard operating procedure because it was possible for healers to go completely OOM or some other form of soft enrage, etc etc.

MMOs can be saved by reuniting with the holy bosom of vanilla.

Except the overwhelming majority bitched until every single dungeon was a straight line, literally everyone just wanted the most efficient way humanly possible to complete everything, the way MMO are now isn't only because of devs, its because its players have always looked at how to complete everything with the minimal possible work.

Players have an equal share for the state of MMOs, why would devs develop a sprawling dungeon when less than 1% of its players will ever care to see?

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This is the problem I had with FFXIV. FFXIVfags praise it as one of the greatest MMOs of all time but it was one of the worst fucking offenders right out of the gate. They love to say WOW is shit in comparison, which these days is 100% true, but at least WOW started off as a game that urged the player to go explore once they had finished babby's first zone.

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You definitely wouldn't like it, but Fallen earth

valve does not market shit FUCKING LMAO Dude is this full on cope?
Dota got like 1 video in 7 years when league gets 3 a year

Hire people that hate videogame just because they are part of some ~minority~

He needs to pause and realize that his wispy peninsula needs to go.

You're forgetting
>resilience
>raids went from 20/40 to 10/25
>clear chain of quest hubs railroads players from beginning to end
>high level dungeon farming went from 5 lockouts per hour to one single fucking lockout per day
>neutral factions tore brothers apart over professor plums (that's a clue reference to purple)

>Valve
>Marketing

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based fruits triggering incels like you

>wow is dead guys
>millions of active players still
cry a lot

That was impressive in 2005, but not anymore.

>meanwhile ff14 doesn't even need that because its one corridor with no puzzles and no reason to even be awake

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thats a dungeon?

yep in ff14.
the next three are the same shit too.

kek
so much for the "much better than wow no really guys" narrative.

Faggot fantasy shills are literally mentally ill

/spit

I hear that one NPC's voice in my head every time fish people show up in a game. "oh no the sahuagin have found me" is etched into my brain.

the dude from oblivion game? lol yeah

Anyone play DDO? what level are ya?

From a DDO dungeon. I always thought it was that one, must have misremembered

Only WoW faggots like you are mentally ill, paying to play 15 year old outdated content in Cucksic

TOP KEK

literally nobody on this planet right now is doing that

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The MMORPG genre will continue with gameplay heavily rooted in WoW's style for at least the next 2 decades. Here is why. I know this is hard to accept, but this is the truth.

1. WoW, even at its lowest points, was still the most successful MMORPG on the market right now. ONTOP of being a sub based, purchased based, and cash shop based game.

2. The second most popular MMOs, FF14 and ESO, are both very similar styles to WoW with slight alterations.

3. Every attempt to move away from the WoW formula has either failed or resulted in sales that would not appease a AAA studio.

The only chances this genre has of being saved is if one of these crowd funded MMOs gains enough players to make huge waves OR if classic WoW is an absolute killer. Neither of which will happen

youtube.com/watch?v=v-YnAIKYbVE

F

It could be if WoTC stopped trying to turn planeswalkers into off-brand avengers. MTG is a classic example of how a good premise for storytelling can be completely wasted by brainlets.

Warframe and destiny are both basically new age mmos
And they're both incredibly successful despite being run by absolute retards.
A non wow mmo works, the problem is most developers are lazy, uncreative and fucking stupid so the projects get sabotaged

Ice fucking cold.

blizzard as a whole needs to die

I miss when MMOs were ok with having a small subscriber base, and the record was like 250k simultaneous subscribers. But now if it's not in the multi-millions, it's deemed a failure. Publishers expect WoW numbers so they give them AAA funding and set themselves up for failure, and in the best cases all we get are bland games.

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So true.

8.2 is good.

Getting $10 coffee for their nerd bosses

Ehh. I think calling them mmos are reaching. It's been awhile since I touched both of them, but aren't they both lobby based?

Yeah. I like Project Usually have 150-300 people on during peak times. Since there are no other servers, you see a pretty good amount of people. I was in the major town today and it was packed.

There are muds. There are a lot of mmos with simpler looks with smaller markets. If you then subsequently point out a lack of grafix I think we've found the defect in your impeccably profound statement as well as why they're not comfortable any more.

DDO is awesome but the business model is horrid and the playerbase is dead

It would years ago when Ravnica was the shit and before a strong independent wamen singlehandedly killed fucking Nicol Bolas

youtube.com/watch?v=s4cSDBJB_70

OH NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Because it means you just run the same shit over and over

Classic will save WoW

And by save I mean kill, it will kill retail WoW. Nobody will want to play their mythic Farmville after tasting an actual MMO for the first time in 10 years

Only if it were based on Odyssey/onslaught

Imagine if heroics were in vanilla WoW. As it stood normally, you hit max level or something close, and you do scholo, strat, DM, BRD, and U/LBRS. That's it. That's all you run now. If there were heroics, that would open up 15-20 more dungeons for you to do. Similarly, imagine if they DIDN'T do it in TBC and the only two dungeons to run at max level were Tempest Keep and Black Morass.

Heroics let max level players choose between way more dungeons to run, and by locking them out of each individual dungeon after running it once, forces them to switch it up. That's the exact opposite of "running the same shit over and over."

My WoW addicted friend keeps going back to the game and only cares about mythic raiding. Saying it's insanely difficult and wants to pursue an esport in it like the world first people. Is WoW raiding really that big of an esport now?

its not a thing like actual esports that make money.
I think there is only one guild that gets properly sponsored for world first kills.

if you dont do it for fun you're fucking up. its absolutely not a career choice, even less so than actual esports.

That guy is on the verge of killing himself and mythic raiding is his only escape, how the fuck am I going to convince him that there is no future in that and that he should just play something else?

he should play whatever he wants. he just shouldnt expect to make money off it.

azshara sucks

Are you an idiot? If heroics were in vanilla wow, there would be no Strath, scholo, BRM or DM, only heroic stockades and heroic deadmines and heroic ragefire chasm.

>the absolute state of coping, seething Final Fantasy shills

WoW is going back to the top. BFA MEGA patches sandwiched between classic patches is going to send subscriber numbers through the roof. It'll be a constant conveyer belt of content.

You know it's over when you see 50 'WoW is dead' threads over and over.

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>There was a time when a single gadgetzan bruiser was killing 19000 players a day

I think they should just make a good game, the fact that they have to resurrect the corpse of oldWow just to entice people says alot about how Blizzard is a trashfire and all of the good people are gone. Why don't they just make a good game?
Should i send a letter to my senator about this?

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So either way, you're running the same dungeons over and over and over again. Your said that heroics are responsible for that, but now what you're saying implies that it'd be the case with or without heroics, and heroics play no part in it.

That image didn't age well. RIP dota. You will always be remembered as the game people played to play autochess before autochess went to EGS.

>Btw your trash game will die long before dota
LoL has survived dota, pubg, fortnite, minecraft, starcraft, hots, overwatch, etc. The list will go on. You are being contrarian for the sake of it.

Play LoL, you actually have roles unlike the mashed potatos in the form of a game, dota. Or if you can't stomach LoL go play HotS.

Shitty, really like DDO. Wish it wasn't an mmo at this point.

You suck.

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if you're gonna post ARR dungeons you can also post shit like this instead of focusing on the Ragefire Chasm equivalent

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this is a joke right?

since last decade

If he thinks world-first raiding is a viable career choice, he's already too far gone.

What happened to WoW? Didn't they give the players the classic style back?

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>large open areas with multiple possible routes
>branching areas with secret rooms and optional mini-boss
>time-limited, optional chests to collect by rescuing friendly NPCs being attacked outside of the main path
>open sky above meaning day / night cycle and weather changes according to what it is outside of the instance
what the fuck more do you want from a low level dungeon?

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Straight and to the point.

THE ABSOLUTE STATE OF HORDELET TRANNIES

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>Then we'll get a new generation of MMOs
Just like RTS right?

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There's clearly a linear path through that dungeon, though. Just because one area gives you room to run around like an adhd retard doesn't mean it isn't aggressively linear.

No not really retard. Once you finish low level dungeons, you don't have to repeat them again at a later stage. And I'd much rather have more dungeons than fewer dungeons.

What are you talking about, it is much better than it has been.

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Azshara needs to be redeemed and Tyrande needs to fall into the abyss with elune.
So night elves would split.

The problem is that after ARR everything turned into corridors because "Hurr, if I'm gonna spam it I'm just going to choose the fastest route anyway!"

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I AM MY SCARS

So how much longer till he comes back?

Ahem

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Yes.

Azshara and N'Zoth need to win.

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When Sargeras inevitably gets released for Legion 2

First they have to redeem Sylvanas at the end of this expansion.

they tried to do that with Overwatch, it originally was supposed be an mmo independent of world of warcraft, but the higher ups forced them to completely change direction (to an fps) because they didn't want to compete with themselves.

>WoW needs to realize where its strengths are and have been in the past. Its strongest content has always been raids and dungeons, especially M+, with PvP right behind.

Imagine missing the point of WoW this bad. We have the fucking numbers to see why things happened to begin with.

WoW's strength (and subsequent sub-numbers) came from the literal sense of being in an online RPG.
-Quests had value (gear rewards).
-Good gear was rare (Greens were the norm, Blues were rare, Epics came from raids/world drops)
-Community + sense of scale. World PvP/events.
-Raids as a goal to strive towards, a tiny % of the WoW population completed raids in Vanilla/TBC and half of Wrath.
-PvE gear being worthwhile in PvP. No sense of asinine balance/esports.

In Vanilla/TBC if you wanted to do a dungeon you had to fucking talk to people. Not hit the Group Finder button. The addition of 'easier'/'streamlined' systems in WoW almost always came with a sub drop after some time, alongside content droughts. The signs went like thisL:
TBC:
>Magisters Terrace (first sign of adding dungeons as a gear-catch-up mechanic)
>Welfare epics (PvP gear in TBC arenas)
Wrath:
>Group Finder added for Dungeons, first sign of streamlining
>Server-Merging for PvP battlegrounds (faster queues, but ruining server rivalries)
Cataclysm (FIRST BIG SUB DROPS)
>Slower content patches, daily-areas (Firelands)
>LFR added... (second sign of the end, removing all incentive to chase raids as a goal)

Then MoP, then WoD, then Legion.
More of the same really - Blizzard always designs 10/10 raids and dungeons, but the game has lost its core sense of prestige/progression. Its nothing but a waiting room where you hit Group Finder/LFR and see all the content with ease. Community is DEAD. M+ & Titanforging turned the game into World of Diablocraft, where they found ways to make you grind over and over to get the perfect BiS. Azerite Power/Artifact Power. etc.

WoW killed itself.

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I largely agree with you but vanilla had catch-up instances as well. Dire Maul & ZG for example.
And battlegroups were in vanilla unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant.
Dailies were in tbc.

Forgot about ZG being added after MC desu.
Could've sworn battlegroups were only added at the end of Vanilla?
Dailies were in TBC yea, Wrath too. But got tied to large factions/content prog/gear in Cata with Firelands. Which then followed with MoP (timeless isle) and much more. Areas to keep players occupied + timegated.

vanilla had me push only one button (frostbolt) and it was fine. cata had me push 7 buttons and watch 2 debuff timers just for my regular dmg rotation and it fucking sucked. made me quit playing feral.

>in vanilla we grinded furbolgs for fucking hours to get rep to buy recipes from them, but we had a goal, to get the recipes.

Dats pretty lame though

>Society has gotten too impatient and addicted to instant gratification

Or maybe people don't want to monotonously farm?

LFR gear was always inferior to just doing the raid with your guild or simply pugging it.

yeah i think battlegroups were 1.12 so it's technically late vanilla in terms of patches but that was still 4 months before the tbc pre patch and 5ish months before tbc.
You may have been thinking about how the wrath group finder was on your own server first and then became cross-server (and i think came from the battlegroup pool? but i may be confused). To be honest a lot of the memories blend together and i don't have the wrath patches memorized as well as i do the vanilla ones.

>How come these new devs want to remove all freedom in the way you control your characters stats,abilities, speed, gcd,talents, gear customization?
because otherwise you babies would cry and lament about how unbalanced the game is and how your ret paladin cant compete with a destruction warlock in the dps meters and how its all so unfair and how shitty the devs are.

>PvE gear being worthwhile in PvP. No sense of asinine balance/esports.
I so so miss this one. What's the point of doing hardest raid content when you are as strong as a player in greens thanks to pvp stat templates.

My friend joined Blizzard after they fired alot of people. He dreamed about working there and now he is 35 and is now in a lead position in developement.

>Everquest Next
Man that game looked so fucking solid.
The builder stand-alone thing which i forget the name of was really fucking fantastic too and at the time people were stoked since your creations/buildings/etc could end up in the game proper.
The only thing i didn't dig as much was all the parkour and grappling garbage but for the building stuff it was more understandable.

>t. Retard who never played tbc

That upsets me. Balance should be a dirty word in the context of mmorpgs and roleplaying in general.
E-sports in WoW were such a mistake and i say that as someone who really loves (or loved, at least) arena. I feel like part of the appeal to vanilla and to a lesser extent tbc is the "warts and all" approach to how things are balanced.

howabout camelot unleashed

nobody picked the same builds. you had different builds based on what content you wanted to do. leveling, dungeoning, raiding, farming, dueling, openworld pvp, bg pvp... they all had their separate builds.

the difference was that you were stuck with your build more back then while now you change it on the fly. when i do 10 arena matches i use a different build for every single one of the 10 matches. and when i do mythic plus i switch builds based on plus number, dungeon and affixes. youre a buildfluid char now.

It looks good so far.

WoW Classic
FFXI
RS
RO
Ultima
AC
DAoC

Wrong, confirmed not a vanilla player. There were multiple paths for every race.

Yeah more or less the impact that Everquest had 1999 is now completly done.

Wrong. SWTOR almost had a successful MMO with SWTOR. Instead of fixing bugs they concentrated on milking players with cash shop items and the game died. The dream is still alive.

Attached: Swtor.jpg (1280x720, 192K)