Which video games let me pilot really big ships in space? EVE's alright, but I've gotten bored of it...

Nexus: The Jupiter Incident is great

Attached: nexus-the-jupiter-incident_946308_full.jpg (1920x1080, 261K)

Is there anything else like Elite Dangerous that captures the trading/courier side of things too? Combat is alright, but most games seem to focus on it exclusively.

>start with the Stiletto
>but then get switched to that shitter
I fucking hated how they pulled that on me.

Attached: Stiletto.jpg (1011x840, 88K)

the x series has trading and empire expansion as one of its focuses, you can go through the entire game with minimal combat if you want

Isn't Star Trek free to play though?

It took a bit of time to get into but Starpoint Gemini: Warlords is pretty cool. You control a ship while having a map with light 4x elements. Lots of different modes/scenarios/ways to play, including big ships. I recommend it, it's kind of underrated. Just expect to take a bit of time to get into it, as with all space games..

Up to a point. A lot of the stuff, ships for most part, is behind a paywall. You can get up to Tier 6, I think, with the story for factions, and you get 1 free ship per rank, but anything that costs Dilithium, acquirable in-game but tedious as hell, or Zen, which is the paywall in question.

It bothers me a great deal that I can't dress up my Romulan as a proper Romulan without forking out real money for it.

Attached: 00a81b096810c27d9b7e218d906a06501373387645.jpg (1280x720, 623K)

Is X4 worth playing yet? I bought it, played it, hated it, just like X rebirth, and X3. I don't know why I keep falling for the same trick.

x4 is really feature lacking compared to x3 since it just came out, x rebirth is the black sheep of the family that tried to attract the console normalfag audience so no one likes it, x3 terran conflict or albion prelude are the games to play right now, there's lot of mods that spice things up like litcube's and other overhaul mods

There's nothing to do, literal arcade combat thats fun for 20 minutes til you realize grinding is the way to win. Cargo running is the same grind in the same places that look all the same. Its all just fly to point a then point b, Which is fine as a flight simmer i enjoy 2 hour commute flights. The issue with ed is that it all looks the same and theres no "Feel" to flying.
You just orient your ship in the right direction and then follow markers mindlessly

I kind of want something newer, i dunno. I tried X3 and didn't get into it before.

you'll have to wait a few years then, x games really only get good after egosoft have had a few years to refine them, except with rebirth since it was flawed at its core

You should get into piracy or hunting in wormholes. I never get tired of that.

Attached: hes coming right for me.jpg (1920x1080, 286K)

anyone here play rebel galaxy? Its single-player and pretty repetitive but its comfy. has a nice space western theme.

Attached: rebel galaxy.jpg (1920x1080, 372K)

I enjoyed it for a few days. It does get rather anoying when you are dragged out of super speed all the time for some text box.

>There's nothing to do
That's the fun part about it, the game's what you make it. I recently picked it up again and have been having fun space trucking and hauling shit through trade routes to eventually upgrade ships. Comfy as fuck to chug through space with the galaxy news playing in the background.

>but it's comfy
The game design is abject shit-tier and they genuinely don't care about improving it.

It's a space sim, literally, not a flight sim, you have to really like space and find your own purpose.

battle fleet gothic is fun for space naval battles

Attached: imperial ships.jpg (1000x563, 124K)

Imagine if it was actually space warfare in 3D though.

i've been getting my space fix from star wars galaxies. the space sim is light on content and its embedded in an mmo, but it does have large ships that require multiple people to fly properly.

Elite Dangerous, but it's literally a virtual job. Boring, repetitive, pays like shit and unpleasant. Takes ages to get a good ship you won't get bodied left and right on. (imperial cutter, one of the best ships, is 200kk, which is quite a lot, and full outfit of top-notch equipment is more than 1kkk, and you also need to grind for rep in Empire for it)
EVE Online, but it's autism and Excel simulator, tried to get into it but couldn't.
Freelancer was kinda comfy.

Did they ever fix Rebirth?

no

Also interested in this. Emphasis on big ships as there are lots of games out there where you can only pilot tiny shit like cruisers or battleships. I'm talking about fucking carriers or flying fortresses.

>takes literally an entire day to make any kind of maneuver
Gee, sounds thrilling

I've been devving space games for a while now, I've even released products that made me some money, I've tried most genres and gameplay methods

and I've come to the conclusion that big ships suck. You think you want to fly one, but you don't.

Dreadnought

no u

it's a mile wide and an inch deep

I genuinely love dreadnought but the game is dead and maintained by a skeleton crew. Deserved much more love.

Seconding Warlords. The 4x gameplay is basic, but the sense of scale with every ship upgrade feels so good. Lot of great designs to fly around in.

Attached: 20170209165824_1.jpg (1600x900, 231K)

I just want a comfy space game, I don't even give a shit about graphics as long as it can load in thousands of players in the same place. We don't have those kind of space games where it's hundreds of tiny ships dogfighting mixed with a few capital ships. Having commanders, squads, customising your ship etc.

Attached: il_fullxfull.1238076601_2rlp.jpg (2464x3000, 1020K)

i had a lot of fun flying a carrier in x3, yeah its less maneuverable, but you can launch something like 20 fighters to deal with anything thats too small and agile for you to keep up with. you've also got lots of turreted weapons on your ship for anything that makes it past your fighters.

as an added bonus, if you want to switch it up, you can launch out of the carrier as a fighter and get your dogfighting fix.

It's too bad the sequel is dropping big ships alltogether. Arcturus and the Blackgate are maximum fun.

>Every ship is boring and gray
>You can't tell ships apart because of the above so the actual screen with stuff happening in it is largely useless
>Calls itself a strategy game FOR SOME REASON
>No real choice, only A or B menus every once in a while
>Terrible interface and controls, they should've just lifted homeworld's system to order troop movements straight up instead of whatever the fuck they were thinking here
>Confusing as hell preparation screen between missions that you have to go out of your way to find even exists
0/10 it has the worst elements of space games and none of the good ones.

Are there seriously no fucking space games besides fucking Mass Effect I guess where you can actually walk around and explore your ship?

Attached: inside11.jpg (800x551, 88K)

star citizen I guess, but it's a big scam.

It's shit

This is the stupidest thing to want, and I hate that ED is adding it. It's pointless wish fulfillment with no mechanical value.

star wars galaxies has several different ships you can explore and even decorate yourself.

elite dangerous will get space legs eventually.

star citizen but by the time it's released you'll have a real space ship to walk around in.

I feel like space games have a higher barrier to pass in terms of sense of scale. Just doing the space part is so expensive you either have to either reduce that and make a single player campaign, or have literally just space exploration. It's why I want to make a graphically basic space exploration game sometimes, to make the cost reasonable so I can move inside my ship
>Ship is getting destroyed oh god oh fuck
>Stand in your cockpit in a panic as you realize there's nothing you can do
>Hear bullets and missiles hitting your ship and feel it shaking as you scramble to the escape pod
>See it explode seconds after you left it, damaging your escape pod
>Take your loss like a man and seek vengeance on the guys who beat you after someone's found you and possibly taken you to a space station
As opposed to
>Press button to scram
>Possibly load save

Not really a scam, just massively over-ambitious and very unrealistic in the past about how long it'd take to make or what it'd cost. They've been making pretty decent progress for the last year and a half or so though.

On the note of SC, for all its other problems I think it's the only game I've ever encountered that does big ships right. Most other games have an experience that's fundamentally the same regardless of what you're flying and no real way to get a sense of scale. In SC, you walk up to your massive ship, get in, walk through its corridors, etc., and that really makes you understand how big it is, and the fact that big ships are heavily multicrew oriented changes the experience of operating them entirely.

No man’s sky lets you walk around and customize your capital ship

There's a way to replace some files and get the ship model you want for the Angel Wing.

forgot to add, warframe's next big update will be adding pilotable player ships with proper interiors that can even be boarded while in combat.

This is functionally the same as just putting an escape button in the main UI. What're you gonna do, put shitty QTEs on whether you dodge the mass effect style falling beams on the way to your pod?

redpill me on no mans sky, it looks good now

There was an indie space game that I won't do the pleasure of naming that allowed it. That was pretty much all it was good for until the dev killed the game because people weren't making their ships like he was.

Warframe makes sense, in this context, because there's already an entire game based around being in a physical space.

Oh, while I'm here, there's a game called Angels Fall First on steam with a small but dedicated playerbase. It's primarily an FPS, but this includes space maps with gigantic human-steered ships that are constantly being boarded and defended.

shoot rocks: the game

Has SWGEmu added space combat then? I used to really like the space side of SWG.

This is like saying dark souls is functionally the same as morrowind because you press buttons until enemies die.

Core gameplay is still fucking garbage, it's just more polished and there's more shit to do, if you hated it back when it released you will still hate it now

nowadays is
>oh shit i'm losing
>lol kill process
this and the fact you can influence the open world playing "singleplayer" mode are two of the most important flaws of the game

shame, the visual and especially the sound are top notch.

Attached: stormnosound.webm (960x540, 2.71M)

I'm asking what gameplay you're suggesting adding that would make these two options distinct, because adding ship interiors just so you can walk through them for style points is pointless.

Some of the survival building type space games are alright for it. Space Engineers is the obvious one but I think Empyrion has a better big ship experience because it's got a lot more tools for making stuff look cool (texturable and colorable blocks, lots of furniture and decoration options, etc.) and you're not as constrained by physics so you can do whatever wacky scifi stuff you want.

x3

buy terran conflict & albion prelude, dont bother with reunion it's shit, just play albion prelude

last i checked, no, but theres a few options out there that have jump to lightspeed. i think most populated is legends.

Elite Dangerous is going to have pilotable capital ships in the future so that might be good, maybe in the meantime they'll even make the game fun to play and not a chore

The ships in Rebel Galaxy are supposed to be, I think, rather large.

It's hard to tell how big things are really supposed to be, though, because the scale of everything as it appears in-game is so obviously fucked. The planets and stars, in particular, aren't to scale unless the ships (including fighters) are way bigger than they have any right to be.

Scale aside, though, the game basically consists of flying big capital ships.

Attached: Rebel_Galaxy.jpg (460x215, 66K)

Even if they do, they'll make sure the fun stuff still pays like shit.

I can spend 3 hours bounty hunting and make less money than half an hour of pressing j.

Currently playing X3: Terran Conflict after trying and failing to get into the series a couple times in the past. Great fun, absurd amount of content and mechanics to learn. Currently tooling around in an M7 with a couple M6s as escorts, would recommend to anyone with the patience to play autism simulators like this. Kind of reminds me of Mount & Blade in space, scratches a similar itch.

the game is legit pay 2 win because you are stuck at tier 5 if you dont pay any real money and tier 5 ships at endgame are fucking useless, you cant tank for shit and you do absolutely no damage

its a huge shame actually because i really enjoy the game but theres no way im paying just to get access to the good ships

>homeworld's system to order troop
Is fucking awful.

Half of a game is style points.
Try playing a FPS without sound on your own guns.

This game is dead there's 1 player in each system

did they confirm carriers can be piloted? i know they just teased them recently but they never said how it actually works. i figured it would be some shared base that sits idle in a system, and moving it would be automated.

>here's some textures and geometry
>>okay, why am I looking at it
>for literally no purpose
nice

>x4 is still garbage and years away from having enough content and mods to be worth playing

That's because there are so many systems.

Attached: ScreenShot00087.png (417x87, 4K)

>buy an M2 or even a TL
>eject
>position next to it
>go into third person
>zoom out
Based game. It's also great for macro economics - it's possible to kill the game universe with bad economic decisions.

Does it even count as multiplayer with 0.1% player interaction

>it's possible to kill the game universe with bad economic decisions.

not the vanilla game it isn't. npcs just spawn random shit and don't rely on the economy at all. i think litcube's has a real economy.

Fleet carriers can't be piloted like a regular ship. They're supposed to be a base of operations for your squadron/guild/clan/whatever you want to call it. The heads of the group will pick a system where the ship's going if your carrier has enough fuel, which you need to supply.
Point and click, simple. But instead of waiting every thursday like all other megaships, your ppl can move the carrier whenever they want provided you have the fuel for it.

Attached: comfy.webm (640x360, 1.86M)

Hey, if FF14 can be called an MMO

Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2

i found one player in 50 hours of gameplay
he was elite and interdicted me while saying "GIVE ME THAT BOOTY", nearly killed me then left

X - universe games, mainly X 3. Don't bother with X 4.
ED ships are fucking tiny, he asked for really big ships in space. Capitals, carriers, superfreighters. You don't pilot anything bigger than a frigate in ED.

It is
>produce shitloads of energy cells in multiple parts of the universe
>release them into the market at minimum price
>all NPC factories get full of energy cells and start producing
>they fill up with materials and energy cells
>equipment docks fill up and their natural depletion is too slow to matter
>GoD starts removing stations due to stagnant economy
>universe gets left with only trading stations, equipment docks, shipyards and military bases

I've sunk 91 hours into it so far and I still feel like I'm very much a beginner. Got a couple complexes about the place, mainly selling 1MJ shields and food items in civilized sectors and producing weed and space fuel in a couple unknown sectors. I'm not normally that into trading and economics in games but it's really addictive in this to the point where I completely neglected combat for most of the time I spent playing so far. Thinking about picking up a Panther to accompany my Deimos, 32 fighters is just silly for an M7.

Okay, user. You've got me in a bind here. As a player who played every single one of those games you have, and then many more of the genre, if you want to pilot Capital Ships you're not going to find "the game" for you.

"Why?" you may ask. Because Capitol ship piloting is, in a word or 3, boring as hell. In nearly every game that allows Capital Ship piloting, You're big, bulky, and fucking boring. ESPECIALLY in EVE Online. I have 2 Minmatar Dreadnaughts, a slew of Carriers, an armada of T3 ships, and a bajillion of Battlecruisers across all the races.

In ST:O, I got all the way up to the Prometheus class cruiser, and the Sovereign battleship. Both were ass in the means of gameplay (but god damn did I have fun with the Prometheus...for a short while).

I feel you're just lacking in the "Engaging Gameplay/plot" that nearly every sci-fi ship-piloting game has failed to reproduce from 2005 and on.

I want to Introduce you to Freespace 2. It is an old as fuck game, I will warn you about that, so playing it *stock* will earn you ZERO points in the graphics department. I will also admit that it is, for lack of a better term, more of a "Dogfighter Sim" than anything else. However, I feel this is to the games benefit, as the story, events in the game, your training, and your rank as the player character, and such are far more in-line with how the game itself plays.

See, in Freespace 2, you are and always will be, in the games eyes, a grunt. You are given mission data, classified intel, and unclassified intel only as your rank as a pilot will allow. The game will withhold info from you if your ability as a pilot sucks and you've only done the bare minimum, or let high-value allies die under your command. That, in and of itself, means that you can potentially lose about 1/4 of the story line if you allow shit to go sideways.

1/2

Attached: FreeSpace_2_Beam-Combat-Anim.gif (320x240, 145K)

>ED ships are fucking tiny
No, they're big. They just all feel small because ED's sense of scale is ridiculously poor.

I'd prefer a game with fleet on fleet space combat with simple but fun gameplay, that incorporates hundreds of people. I don't know why people want a realistic expansive space sim. Devs have tried it and they always come out bland and boring.

You did the right thing by focusing on economics before jumping into combat, because to field anything serious in combat, you need a strong economic backbone to equip all your ships with the necessary hardware and software, including top of the line missiles which most likely you wouldn't even be able to buy and have to produce yourself. It's a royal pain in the ass, I tell you.

Ship with a testicle sack hanging below it.

Starsector.

Fractured Space
That game is good shit. The Gladiator in siege mode made my pewpew hard

world of spaceships w h e n

>singleplayer

the problem with really big ships in space is the bigger your ship the slower you feel
and you're always just watching said big ship from a distance as it moves through space not doing a whole lot
its the smaller scale shit where you pilot a cutter or dogfighter and fly around all speedy because you have said massive ships to compare yourself to where it's really at

Shit, misread your post.

EVE Online?

check steam reviews for the ones with dev responses and you'll get a good idea why its shit

Can confirm, pretty fun for a while.

Attached: 20190528035223_1.jpg (1920x1080, 409K)

I'd love something like this, but inevitably the aesthetics are going to be shit and it's going to be like thirty v thirty in big ships.

it's okay user, checked

fucking. this.
webm related. Go find a red giant star alone and you won't think it's any different to a regular star until you see your distance to it or it has a close companion to compare.

Attached: perspective.webm (720x404, 2.89M)

So you typically have command of your wing of 4 (including you) and you can issue *very* specific orders to them, and they will complete them to the best of their ability. It is your task as the wing leader to efficiently give them orders, such as "Take out that newly spawned wing of hostiles" to "Disable this particular subsystem of this enemy Capital Ship". It's incredibly in depth, and easy to issue said orders while you're attacking whatever you are trying to.

That being said, you're job is not going to be always dogfighting. You'll be piloting bombers, Air-Superiority craft, stealth fighters, support ships, science ships, and everything else I didn't mention. This game is not stagnant. It will throw you at everything and everyone it can, and in multiple places. The variety of ships you get to chose to pilot on a mission to mission basis are wildly varying, and your weapon selection is huge.

Now, back to Freespace 2 being old. You can circumvent this by downloading a mod called "Freespace: Open" which will upgrade the models and such of the game to be pretty much as good as any modern game can dish out. So if you're interested, go ahead and do that.

One last remark about this gem of a game: You will not fucking dislike this game. I promise you that. It will dig its claws into you so hard, you'll be wondering where the fuck the 10 hours you just spent playing it went. Do yourself a favor, and give Freespace 2 a shot. You deserve it, and it deserves to be played.

Attached: Freespace2box.jpg (324x401, 27K)

>bought the first game for 20$
>played the tutorial
>got off to eat dinner
>never opened the game again
fuggg :DDDD

>actually flying a carrier is good because you can launch a fighter from it and fly that
I get what you're saying, basically my goal in life is to command a space carrier but there's just a lot of things that are hard to overcome. Basically you move slowly, you just watch turrets fire. You can target stuff. Directly flying isn't fun, you can issue orders but again you're just sitting and watching.
Since piloting isn't fun you can add busywork and management, but that's just a distraction really.
You can launch fighters. This is the best solution I guess. Warp somewhere in carrier, launch fighter. Pilot fighter around your carrier as it looks badass.
But that's still not exactly piloting it or "commanding it".

Not saying it can never be done or anything just that the mental image of being a space admiral commanding a space carrier is cooler in theory than practice for the most part. because it's just sitting and watching really.

it's too point and click for me, I'd like something more manual. That and it's not exclusively a fleet on fleet game, and when it is it's slow and unfun. For me anyway.

Star Conflict might be the game you're looking for.
made by the same folks from warthunder

Attached: 1363728367800.jpg (1680x1050, 402K)

Yeah, even at the stage where I'm at with a small combat fleet arming all of the ships was enough of a pain that I'm thinking about building some plexes to produce CIGs and stuff. I've not been using missiles too much so far, but I've started running wasps and Thunderbolts on my M7 and Mosquitoes with the fighters and it's been working out well. Any advice on what I should be looking to invest in? I make a couple mill every in game hour, have about 25 UTs running and probably five complexes with commercial agents making money. My main fleet is a Deimos with a full hangar and a couple Skirons escorting. I've got a fleet tender and stuff so I'm starting to get the hang of fleet logistics, just not sure what to go for next. It's kind of a pain replacing the fighters when they get shot down, but it's so effective to vomit up a flight of Nova Raiders whenever I'm attacked by stuff smaller than an M6.

I hate being a game dev sometimes, I know all the tricks they're doing, and even if I didn't, you can see visually that you're just in a small level. The star is literally an orb you can reach out and grab, it's even worse in VR. If you let your mind think about it or actually see beyond delusion-vision, it's annoying.

I get it, computers have limitations and levels need to be small. It is what it is. But yeah once you realize how small everything actually is it sucks.

he wants to pilot big ships, you can only fly fighters and bombers in freespace 2

The ships in ED are actually pretty fucking huge but you would never know it since you can't walk around in them and you don't really have a baseline to compare them to while out in space.

youtube.com/watch?v=hkjWl4nkzCE

I really want to play Elite Dangerous on PC, I played it for over 500 hours on Xbone, have triple elite, fully upgraded most of engineers, both Admiral/King rank with federation and empire and huge bank but Frontier will only let me transfer money and I can't just let go of my ranks like that but I don't want to play on Xbone now that I have PC.
This is suffering

X3AP with XRM. you have to work to earn that ship though

hahahahahahaha

I understand that, user. But given the games sheer amount of fun, I needed to put it into the ring. Freespace 1 and 2 are both phenominal, but 2 is just plain better than 1 (an event we so rarely see in games today)

It took me 300 hours to realize this game is a huge piece of shit.

>want big ship
>need money
>best way to get money is to trade
>fly between two points for 290 hours
>get big ship
>do combat
>hmm..
>this is just sitting in a spot with infinitely spawning enemies for no purpose
>this makes less money than trading
>at least I can trade more with my big ship and earn money faster, haha

It appears you've fallen victim to Brabens VISION

Attached: 1434782717203.png (741x626, 541K)

This....

>mfw every game after AP was a complete fucking failure

Attached: 1542133347391.gif (497x373, 489K)

Which? EVE or Elite Dangerous?

Elite Sorry meant to reply to someone talking about Elite

>sets himself with a shit goal of having a huge ship with no purpose
>grinds like a retard for hours
>proceeds to complain

Was about to say, in EVE all you gotta do is go to belts and fuckin kill rats.

lmao give me a non-shit goal to do in Elite dangerous

AI Crew when?

Attached: 1499724223604.jpg (1920x1080, 316K)

well, when you consider the scale, the fighters are like gnats, and your main focus will be the other larger ships that are actually visible to you, which aren't that much faster or more maneuverable than you. you don't feel all that sluggish. even then, you could always switch to a smaller ship, which is still massive compared to fighters, and run circles around the other capitals.

Goddamn are you a boring person. Try playing something like Space Engineers if your imagination is so damn awful.

In Eve I set up a mining fleet using multiple accounts, my goal was to sustain them all by earning plexes, it was kinda fun, but then I realized how fucking autistic it was mining on 4 accounts to earn the money to mine on 4 accounts

So, knowing Gaijin, I'm assuming it's a game that WOULD be pretty good but is ruined by horrible F2P grinding mechanics, shit balance, and a god-awful playerbase that's 90% retards and 10% teamkilling trolls?

Rebel Galaxy was fun.... until the game auto-saved at a point where you always die and you can't load any other saves so you basically have to start all over.

That's a FUCKTON of dev effort that could be used on interesting content, yo

I'll give you the goal to try to have fun :^)

I was more thinking in terms of the man made structures. There are literally zero constants to clue you in to how big things are. Usually, sci-fi deals with this by giving ships/stations plentiful maintenance hatches, doors, control panels, people walking around etc. Not only does Elite not have any of this, but the cockpits of each ship vary wildly in size, seemingly deliberately, to the point where you'd never guess how big some of the ships are unless they were right next to one another. You know it's a problem when even in VR every ship feels mostly the same.

Playing EVE to buy plexes is what killed my enjoyment of the game and made it feel like a job.

I'm working on a game where you are a smuggler with your waifu and space pirates start a rebellion you get caught up in the middle of.

Waifu lipsync test: streamable.com/u2zvu
Extremely early WIP of cutscene prototype: streamable.com/0vqyr

It might even come out before Star Citizen!

AI crew never. Space legs never. Fun never.

Attached: 1464644890185.jpg (2560x1280, 623K)

My ideal space sim is like 30min long matches with two fleets facing off. We could have extremely unique factions with completely different gameplay and strategies. For example, the ayy players could utilise stealth tech to flank the entire human fleet. Seriously how the hell do we not have fleet space combat yet. People have dreamed of this stuff sincd the seventies and we have the tech to do it.

I love this part of elite. It's real. Perspective is bonkers because it should be.

Mosquitos aren't useful for dealing damage, they're designed to be anti-missiles and for clearing minefields. Most ships (including M5s) won't even notice when they get hit by them.
Important things to produce unless you'll want to kill yourself later
>computer chips
>Flail missiles
>advanced satellites
>one tractor beam factory somewhere
Things to produce to make obscene money
>space fuel
>silicon
>crystals

Star Sector lets you micromanage a fleet, but you don't really pilot the ship around space, you only pilot it during battles.

sometimes it can get even more fucky
>closer is a wolf-rayet star, one of the most massive "regular" stars in the game
>the M E G A C H O N K E R in the back is a blue-white supergiant star.

it was, minus the tking (non existant), at least when I was playing.
Last time I played they added open world shit.
I miss [COMFY]

You're totally right. Unless you're using VR, you can't really tell the scale of your own cockpit, least the size of your own ship or anything really.

Attached: Lysoogio AA-A h0(Lysoogio AA-A h0 A)_00001.png (1920x1080, 2.98M)

Completely agree

The best I've played yet was the fucking alpha combat prototype for Infinity The Quest For Earth

Would be astonished if anyone else even heard of that.

>470278729
meant to be

Because there's no playerbase for it. Just watch dreadnought die.

Nice, thanks. I've not been selling any crystals, just using them in closed loop complexes.

In VR, your cockbit feels way bigger, more real, it's great.

The flip side is that you realize how small everything else actually is. You're just in a small level like any other game. The star is just a sphere scaled up. Not even that much. You can almost reach out and grab it. It's mostly trickery to make it feel better, like controlling your speed and scaling things dynamically.

>put space weed and fuel factories right next to borders where its illegal
>people bring it back to their own space and get blown up by security

getting rich while cleansing the universe of degeneracy is top tier money making.

dreadnought is just world of tanks but you can up and down. I'm talking hundreds of small ships swarming the other fleet, with actual fleshed out factions instead of that "manufacturer" shit we see in dreadnought.

This, Starsector is fun as fuck

Attached: starsector2.webm (500x300, 2.17M)

It just makes it far more underwhelming than it could be. Why should I bother grinding rep to get a giant frigate when piloting it feels almost exactly the same as a Sidewinder?

you just need different gameplay mechanics/loops to make it work

play FTL, Starfleet Academy, Bridge Commander

I know it's not the same
but there's no playerbase for that either is my point

haven't heard anything about it, could you share some info?

I played it for a bit when it was 'free' on PS plus, enjoyed it for awhile got bored and no longer pay for plus though.

No playerbase for something that never existed, user

2d indie garbage

bridge commander modded out was awesome but unstable

The heat death of the universe might come before Star Citizen.

>2d space games
>3d space games on a flat plane like boats
big yikes

Just looked at it a bit on YT, looks really neat. I see there's also a sequel coming out this year? What's that shaping up to be?

>2d indie garbage
ok retard

game has been dead since February user

Too bad the game is fuckin dead :

The sequel is cutting literally all of the elements I liked about Warlords. So I'm a bit salty on it, but I'll check out the reviews when it comes out.

I remember looking at it ~5 years ago, vaporware now I assume.

It's old and dead (I think it became one of the universe simulators on Steam? Not sure). But there was an old game that was ambitious to be a full on space mmo.

It started with a "Combat prototype" that was actually really fun on it's own.

Each team had 2 capital ship and 2 carriers, they'd shoot at the other fleet. You started as a fighter and as you got kills earned money to buy bigger ships, all the way up to a carrier yourself. Flight physics were awesome, it was great.

Here's an old video of it doing a full space-to-planet transition, amazing for the time. youtube.com/watch?v=yrcEUO7TC28

Actually I just looked it up and it seems they have a new thing Infinity: Battlescape. I don't know anything about it, which is probably not a good since since stuff about it is a year old

>t's pointless wish fulfillment with no mechanical value.

Attached: 1556749526645.jpg (812x760, 67K)

>EVE's alright, but I've gotten bored of it. Trying
Try playing now in nullsec you slut. Local chat is literaly w-space now.

Story focused game like the original and 2 where you play as a set character with a questline unless you go freeroam mode. Unlike the others, you'll be piloting a customizable ship that ranges in size from some sort of heavy fighter to potentially frigate in size. Though the ship may be able to get bigger, devs talk about how they haven't decided how big they want the ship to become pretty often on discord. Needless to say, it probably wont get to be battleship+ sizes.

Warlords was a spinoff of the man series, one the devs have said they'd definitely do again, so look forward to warlords 2 eventually.

>Terran Conflict was released 11 years ago
>AP was 8 years ago
>Egosoft hasn't made anything good since then

Attached: 1513521141654.jpg (619x453, 28K)

Attached: screenshot_2016-08-23-14-15-24.jpg (1920x1080, 328K)

Isnt X4 shaping up?

it's a good foundation but like most initial releases it's pretty barebones
most people forget about how rough Reuinion's launch was

give it 2 more years

I just can't have faith in egosoft anymore

>no Terrans
It's shit

>hey we got this game that's filled with as many problems as it has systems
>I know let's spend an incomprehensible amount of development work on making some pointless scenery and then coming up with piss-poor excuses for attaching gameplay to it

You can't customize your ship without paying more money. It's retarded. New features are already locked behind DLC. Drones try to defend this by saying "it's an mmo they need money for teh servers!" but I didn't see a single other player when I played before refunding it. It's a glorified load screen simulator, not an mmo, and the devs are turbo jews.

any love for Nexus : TJI?

Your pitch was unnecessary, I'd already played Freespace and I just so happen to love the treason, but hate the traitor.

>Coming into a system with a pulsar Star
I don't know why but those things are fucking horrifying.

He's right though.
Unless your game has mechanics related to interacting with your crew, walking around has zero value.

they've already announced their new premium currency model, you'll be able to earn it in game to get your cosmetics

In another world we got a proper full game release of a Battlestar Galactica space sim game.

youtu.be/EFFYIMvIl74

Attached: file.png (2560x1440, 3.85M)

>You can't customize your ship without paying more money
Next update introduces a way to earn "Arx" a cosmetic currency to bypass buying them.
>New features are already locked behind DLC
Yeah that sucks. Hopefully the next one isn't as pricey as Horizons. It shouldn't be since there's fucking microtransactions.
>I didn't see a single other player when I played before refunding it
kek

SERIOUSLY?

I am literally flabberghasted, SERIOUSLY?

Attached: Untitled.png (1053x675, 82K)

>Diaspora: Shattered Armistice
A man of culture

Its more like a foot deep now. Its better, but not by much. I blame the fun hating forum dads.

>fun hating forum dads
It's great to see them collectively lose their shit everytime FDev tries anything remotely good for the game.

Sounds like it still needs few years, I did get a few dozen hours out of it at launch but it was completely broken.

Yeah, man, it's been ages since I played it though, so I might as well pick it up again when I exhaust all the other suggestions from the thread. I never really gave X3 much attention, but I figure I could give Albion Prelude a try.

I've been thinking of making a new space game.

So many ways it can be done though, not sure how I want to do it

>Because Capitol ship piloting is, in a word or 3, boring as hell.

See: every capital ship Freelancer mod

Can you do something like FTL but multiplayer?

Great, now instead of having to grind for credits to upgrade your ship you also have to grind super duper special credits so you can put a spoiler on your cobra

Attached: brendan fraser.jpg (540x720, 33K)

There's that one game that's like a sub game in space, Objects in Space, I think you move around in your ship? Or you might just move between stations.
There needs to be something that's like Silent Hunter but for spaceships.
Or a game where your ship's like the Millennium Falcon and you have to dig around in your ship's systems to fix shit when it breaks.

I probably could but i'm kind of more drawn towards direct combat as opposed to managing crisis. I like VR and a VR FTL would be fun though.

Anyone know if Underspace is going to let you fly capital ships?

Good. Whats bad for the dads is good for the game. The sooner we're free of the dad menace the sooner we get a 10/10 space sim.

pulsar lost colony is a multiplayer game where each member is a different worker on the ship, you got shit like captain, engineeer, weapons, pilot, science, etc. and you go around the ship and do shit

store.steampowered.com/app/252870/PULSAR_Lost_Colony/

>I don't want to pay money for cosmetics
>here earn them in-game
>I haven't seen how it'll work but I don't like it

How is Everspace, lads?

trainwiz said the flight model for the game doesn't work with big ships
he's right and capital ship tards in Discovery Freelancer were cancer

You could try Avorion. Pretty fun game.

garbage like most roguelites

Space games are wish fulfillment to begin with. I don't see any reason not to have a game with more of it in.

Decent but a roguelite

If you want space autism. Every button is pressable here.

store.steampowered.com/app/366000/Rogue_System/

Attached: hqdefault.jpg (480x360, 20K)

>should we make powerplay open-only since it's pvp?
>reeee fdev I'm going to sue your ass I want a refund what about modes parity I won't buy cosmetics for my spesstruck anymore
I can't wait for the next big meltdown.

>no new Star Trek Bridge Commander game that lets me play as a Klingon, Romulan, Andorian, Tholian, Breen, Starfleet, Borg, Jem'Hadar or Cardassian

Attached: screenshot_2016-08-19-16-00-12.jpg (1920x1080, 272K)

Huh
neat

Bridge Crew VR was pretty great, for a couple hours

Attached: dims.jpg (1600x1067, 290K)

I remember eons ago i saw videos of the dev showcasing this cockpit scene and how realistic he wanted it all to be. I can't believe so many years later and this cockpit still is all this game try to sell on. Dear lord, people hate managers but this is why they exist. Just move on to other stuff.

Fuck anyone that thinks powerplay being available to private groups and solo is a good thing. This is why I don't touch powerplay, because I know some faggot group is botting the everliving fuck out of it and I can't do shit against it because they're not in open.

Oh shit I remember the combat prototype, I played it a couple of times but my computer couldn't handle it very well.
Quest for Earth used what it looked like an old modified version of SpaceEngine to render the star system without newtonian flight.
Don't know what happened with Battlescape but apparently there's gonna be an early access release at the end of the year. Looking forward to it, I would like to see something massive like Planetside 2 but with spaceships.

Attached: EliteDangerous64 2019-07-04 23-12-59.png (1920x1080, 2.97M)

Yeah development seems slower than glacial.

listen i know it breaks immersion to require ultracredits to add a big gay spoiler to the back of your ship, but the way they described it makes it sound like you'll earn it from all content. you'll be getting credits and cosmicash at the same time. i can see them making a stipulation that you need to be in open to earn it, but otherwise it won't be anything extra you need to do.

>i can see them making a stipulation that you need to be in open to earn it
>actual players are rewarded for playing
>larping dads making the game worse need to get their credit cards
I hope they go with that idea.

>i can see them making a stipulation that you need to be in open to earn it
Have they fixed combat logging yet? If not then making players play in open won't mean a damn thing.

oh

Attached: file.png (655x432, 36K)

How does Star Trek manage to stay so great through it's massive inconsistencies and power holes throughout the eras? Just reading through the Iconian War and constrasting it with Wolf 359 is such a mindfuck holy shit I love it

Attached: 1563030955828.jpg (1200x675, 57K)

>Limit Theory dev goes to an insane asylum
>Rogue System dev gets his head smashed in and becomes a tarded
What the hell is with space devs

It is a peak of modding.

Attached: openonly.png (1159x126, 57K)

It isn't, Star Trek has always been peak neckbeard cringe

>warp 10
>warp 13
>time travel
>phase cloaks
>slipstream
>warp catapults

its only consistent in that they ignore things in the next ep

The whole genre is just cursed. All we get are endless promises and teases but never anything substantial.

Good. Fuck asswipes like this. Bastards ruin it for the ones that actually want to play and not just LARP.

not a clue, it's been a few years since i've played, but i wanna say i heard something about it being bannable now.

>literally implying he'll start cheating to play powerplay in open
The dads must be driven away.

Attached: cheatingdad.png (1835x206, 154K)

You have to look away from the NMSes and SCs, there are games out.

Does x rebirth really suck as first x game? Dont mods fix the retarded scaning grind etc? Interested because it has controller support for comfy bed gaming.

Attached: maxresdefault.jpg (1280x720, 184K)

There are games out there with potential and goodness*

>fixed combat logging
How could they? They can't prevent your ship from vanishing when you kill your game, it's p2p.
>bannable
I've never seen actual proof of someone being banned by FDev for any act of cheating or combat logging.

big robots too. shit tons of games, 99% terrible.

Attached: maxresdefault.jpg (1280x720, 42K)

>about it being bannable now
I stopped playing a year or two ago and even then the devs always said it was punishable yet I never heard of a player actually being banned for it. Hell I remember when the game released frontier said they were "working on a fix" that never seemed to materialize.

It's just not that great

yes it does, the scanning shit is a part of it but the main issue is that you can still only fly a single ship, there are mods out there that add controller support to x3 and x4 has it natively, even that's a better game than rebirth

X-Rebirth is just wrong.
I had so many hopes for it and it was just Spore 2.0 for me. I'm still waiting to try X4. But i'll be triple cautious this time.

>How could they?
Just make the ship stay in space for 30 seconds or something after losing connection. Fixed.

That sucks, that game did look promising.
I think a game that maybe wasn't THAT in-depth but still had some element of interacting with your ship's interior beyond just sitting in cockpit looking at menus would be neat. E:D can be fun but when trading or passenger ferrying is mostly just pointing your ship in a direction and waiting or hitting jump every minute, it gets kind of dull.
I remember playing Orbiter Space Simulator, and one of the custom ships someone had built came with a simulated nuclear reactor/engine that you had to keep operating in the right range to get the most power. Also stuff like the DeltaGlider IV and learning its startup processes.
I remember once I managed to pull off an orbital transfer between the ISS and MIR in Orbiter and I felt like a fucking genius.

Literally Euro Truck Simulator except somehow worst, I like grinding when it's worth it but in ED it ain't, fun to try out, get into combat, try out all mission types, few ships, then quit the game and not touch it until a new dlc or update is out

Star Citizen
KotOR 2
Battlegroup VR

>you can attach buggies to them and go drifting on low gravity planets.
that was so fun in Mass Effect and Spore. oh wait no it fucking sucked dicks.

what do you mean with dlc locked behind a paywall? like the horizon shit?

There's no real good space sim tag on Steam so it's hard to find good ones
is Between the Stars any good? Is Underspace?

It is the civic duty of every commander to interdict and kill all dads that cross their paths. Only then can we be free of the dad menace.

Attached: 9d6.png (396x418, 355K)

Not how it works, the game doesn't have servers like a regular multiplayer game, there's servers to handle missions so they are all given to everyone, but for the actual gameplay it's peer 2 peer.
I don't get what you're trying to say, sorry.

What games allow me to pilot a capital ship then jump in a fighter for intense dog fights?

>but for the actual gameplay it's peer 2 peer.
You know I forgot about that part. They should've made it a proper MMO from the start.

Is there a list of dads somewhere?
I know there's the Hutton Boomer's website with quite a few of them putting their CMDR names on it.
Also good luck finding a dad in open that isn't in some meme location like Hutton.

X4, if the game actually worked.

so play x3 ap instead

Star Citizen excels in ship interior design

Attached: 1538235400462.jpg (3840x2160, 1021K)

a useless mechanic

star citizen isn't a game you retard get off of Yea Forums

I'd ask /edg/ for that. Maybe they have it, I don't know. All I know is that dads are a plague and need to be exterminated.

No it doesn't, they've been remaking a bunch of their ships and they fucked up the interior, it looks awful, sometimes there's a ton of space for absolutely no reason, and one of the "luxury" ships they remade is absolutely cramped.

/edg/ is dead and gone.

I'd play EVE Online if they'd let me walk around the ship while it's flying around space

Attached: 1552253694043.jpg (970x545, 50K)

But you're in a pod with tubes up your ass.

Used to be fractured space

What's the point of it all when they haven't even come nowhere near to actually finishing the game? Sure, I love attention to detail, but it's utterly pointless if that's all you have in your game. It amazes me that people still keep pouring money into that black hole.

I kind of want just EVE Online that plays like Elite. I want the cool space MMO that's actually player driven, but the point and click gameplay doesn't appeal.

No, black holes aren't in the game yet.

Shit, it really is. Damn, when'd it die?

A while ago. E:D sucks and SC is dead, and nobody plays Yea Forumslancer, so there's no point for the space general to be around.

Wait I know the answer to that. The gacha plague got to them finally. o7 you beautiful bastards.

And we dont talk about /kspg/

>tfw hoping Underspace will lead to a resurgence of Yea Forumslancer-tier broventures

E:D is the best space sim we got. Not like that's saying much but its still saying something. Maybe if FDev finally pulls their heads out of their collective asses and stops listening to dads to make a good space game it'll come back, just in time for hell to freeze.

No, no we do not.

Pretty sure I saw a thread up two months ago, but it was completely dead, basically on life support.
/edg/scg/ might be gone for good

Never mention that general again.

>best space sim
The combat is okay and that's about it

He didn't mention any general, why are you?

You can't really do games of that size and scope without it being tick based. Also, Eve is a bit like WoW in the sense that the only possible usurper would be Eve 2.

>comfy
Dropped
Take it back to Ribbit

I like the sound design and general 'feel' of piloting ships. It's just a shame there's not more substantial stuff or decent goals to work towards.
Deep core mining is some of the best 'space miner' gameplay I've played. Popping open a rock is very pleasing.

Attached: PS_Messages_20190504_223807.jpg (1920x1080, 407K)

/edg/ died a long time ago. For a while it merged with star citizen general when both were dying so it could have a thread up but now even the combined thread is gone. Star citizen still has a thread up when a major update releases happens but that's it. The great space game revival is dead. RIP sira

Attached: 1434919795118.png (2000x1000, 255K)

Let me rephrase. The best MODERN space sim we have.

>even the combined thread is gone
Fucking jians better be there for Brabo's "late 2020" DLC
SC probably won't even be in beta by then

Attached: oeil_ok.jpg (450x386, 56K)

I hope we get space legs then. Or more stuff to do.

If the leak is true (which it has been for now) it's going to be spess legs and base building.

>base building
mite b cool
I also want a new SRV and atmospheric landing. But I'll let Brabo take his time with his VISION. We've got good stuff so far, no need to fuck it up by going fast.

>new SRV
Ha.
Also to tie into the base building thing, if Fleet Carriers turn out good and we get to customise them I hope it could be expanded to player owned stations (maybe just outposts).

Fuel Rats have a station (kind of) and Ganon has that megaship. It might be possible for large groups.

>tfw have e:d with horizons
>did the srv landing/fucking around tutorial
>get into the game
>can land on planetary stations just fine
>can eject my car from stations and fuck around on the planets surface just fine
>get planetary retrieval mission
>get to the location
>can't eject my car no matter what, the terrain never gives me the notification that its suitable for landing
>spend well over an hour walking through the issue and every basic solution on discord
>after all that the guy helping me just goes "idunno lol"
FUCK

I forgot to deploy the landing gear for an hour when I was drunk as fuck once.

I feel like Canon's megaship is going to be redundant when FT are added, maybe they'll turn it into one?
For the Fuel Rats it's their player faction, so they can't really do anything with it, I'm taking about actual management of the station.

kek

did you try relogging?

>you need to deploy landing gear
what the FUCK
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

That's why I said (kind of) since they can't really do anything with the station.

Attached: 1537197658767.gif (600x500, 2.91M)

When will we get actually meaningful content

That doesn't mean anything unless you expand on what you are looking for.

Never, just accept the VISION into your heart

Dunno about big ships, but hopefully this gets funded
kickstarter.com/projects/pastaspace/underspace

Pasta's never liked capital ships as a flyable thing, he shit all over them in Yea Forumslancer.

youtu.be/tuwFPk3ehpo?t=4
>Baltimore Shipyard: Due to overuse in Freelancer mods we will no longer be producing capital ships

I don’t dislike them, they just don’t work with the control system. Capships basically need their own way to fly and a lot of concessions that I don’t want to struggle with, at least until after launch

When do we get content that isn't RNG'd missions and actually has a point to it other than grinding to grind more.

Trading related?
Mining related?
Exploration related?
Combat related?
Bounty hunting related?
Expand on what your expectations are, people are playing this game in different ways and the devs have to keep all of them interested

Anything, just give me anything Braben you fucking hack.

I need to try X3 again
Last time I tried it I was slowly getting the hang of it but the gameplay was just "buy parts in 1 station and take them to another for a 5% profit".

No :^)

Sorry, but that's not part of the VISION

Play Star Conflict then maybe. Space dogfighting War Thunder, basically

Well then go see an optometrist already

Mining is literally some of the worst money per hour too.
Can make more from an hour in a wormhole than in a full day's mining
Just set up PI to get a passive 1-2 billion a month and that's enough to PvP non stop in small ships all month

let your minions do the space truckin while you explore

Explore what? X games have crap exploration.

>another space game that'll never get done

Star Citizen had a show where people made ships to try and get their ship in the game. On was Rejected. I got it on sale on CG Trader for 25 buckeroos. Interior in everything. I have a cute waifu character to be your smuggling companion in it.
I'm going to travel the stars in it with my waifu in VR.
Best thing to come out of Star Citizen

Attached: valkyrie-3d-model-obj-fbx-ma-mb-mtl.jpg (1920x1080, 159K)

Don't worry, I don't have a history of mental health issues besides liking trains.

Attached: IMG_U3.webm (1600x900, 2.03M)

What's wrong with the framerate?

I would love a game based on The Expanse where you can walk around on ships and there's no artificial gravity except what can be simulated with ship acceleration or rotation. It's such a fucking cool idea.

>space trains
heh

I dont see anything wrong

What else are space bandits supposed to rob?

RIP

I love them so much. I can't believe how they fucked it up.

You do you man, hope it gets kickstarted.

>have the opportunity to make a great space game
>instead waste it all on a roguelike

WARNING, this game is very addicting ( with mods)

youtube.com/watch?v=YwH5O_2ZBCU

Attached: screenshot613.jpg (1600x900, 375K)

It's 2k away with a week to go, it's definitely gonna get there and probably then some.

What would make a great space game?
I've made many and I feel as I have improved my programming skills I've gotten further away from how to actually make a fun space game
(not Underspace dev but I do have released space game product)

Lord knows I have the assets to make any kind of space game at this point

Just make space interesting and don't go all in on procedural generation like E:D or overboard on ridiculous features like SC

I feel like there's room for fucking any kind of space game these days.
If I'd make a one it would probably be about war for resources on the moon in the near future.

>resources on the moon

>a VR exclusive is the closest thing we ever get to a new Bridge Commander

after playing EVE no other space sim will ever satisfy me.

Attached: 1501997245083.jpg (640x358, 40K)

You must have terrible standards

>Because Capitol ship piloting is, in a word or 3, boring as hell.

Wrong. I remember playing as a capital ship in X3:TC, I warped into some sector where there was some gigantic invasion currently happened. Almost immediately all my ship turrets tracked to them an opened fire.

Looking out from my bridge, everything starboard was just a sea of fucking fire and explosions.

Well, I have what I think is a decent story and lore. I can make that good, I know where everyone else is going wrong. I'm talking more about the core game play.

After playing ED, NMS, Rebel Galaxy, Star Trek, I can tell you this: Star Wars Rogue Squadron was the best of them.

It's "4259 hrs. played. Not recommended": The Game.
Pretty good if you don't let yourself burned out of it and play in short burst of several weeks, then let it settle for a couple of months or so.
Really enjoyable with VR.

I had one of these bad boys back in the day. I used to stream Elite Dangerous to the bathroom and do trade runs on the toilet. Absolute vidya kino.

I also had it for VR, with tactile transducers for my chair to make it shake with my engines and my weapons. Fucking amazing. Too bad the game sucks

Attached: 61rpUV9K+tL._SL1000_.jpg (1000x902, 115K)

They've got their single player game that they've been quietly working on for the whole time as well, and most of the ships they've made so far were done because they're supposed to be in it.

At this point with Star Citizen I'll believe it when I see it

It was up for a bit a few weeks ago, can't remember exactly when but it was during the most recent Evocati period. I've been off the map for the last couple of weeks, been hosting friends from out of the country, so I haven't really checked since then to see if there was a thread.

Have we even got more than one star system yet

Starsector. Its 2d but its legit one of the most fun spaceship games i have ever played.

the difference in feel from piloting a small frigate to a full blown capital ship is wonderful

Also if you add in mods, things can get pretty fucking insane in terms of scale.

Attached: starsector.jpg (1200x750, 82K)

Is there anything in terms of story, exploration, etc

not really, it's basically space mount and blade

An AI crew would be amazing if mutinies were possible, then have an epic civil war on your ship. Of course, you can hard reset before the AI decided to Mutiny if you get beat by toasters

What happened to that strategy game, Flagship I think it was called. It was an rts but from the first person on the bridge of your flagship.

Cancelled, though I forget why

Elite Dangerous might be fun before Star Citizen comes out

>story
No
>exploration
Plenty

Star Citizen will never come out.
They barely have any money left.

It will come out, it'll just be garbage that feels like nothing works right, just like it is now.

Attached: BridgeCommander.webm (1200x675, 2.65M)

>3 grand for coffee makers
>10 grand for doors

the sooner they go out of business and normies realize they've been scammed, the better

Last I checked it was a “we didn’t get enough money from the KS so we’ve downgraded the scope but it’s still being worked on exdee”
Sucks to hear they’ve cancelled if they have. It genuinely looked fun

Should I try out EVE?
It's free now on steam.

its only free if your time is worthless

but in real life size does not correspond to size in stars. The most MASSIVE stars in the universe observed are nowhere near as LARGE as other less massive stars.

Do people just post this shit as bait or are there seriously people out there who think shit like that is unusual?

I haven't heard anything from them in years

Star Citizen as a scam is out, Star Citizen as a shitty game is in

You're right. Spending ten thousand on a single door is perfectly reasonable.

Yeah but they're not the size of a SMALL BUILDING

Fair