*ruins RPGs forever*

>braindead directions on where you need to go
You're only told what city you need to go to, not how you're going to get there. Unless you take the Silt Striders, you have to follow the roads and make sure you don't get lost along the way, and for new players that's not as simple to do when you don't always know the one direction you need to go in. Not to mention, having to pay attention to the game's world instead of a compass means you get to notice a lot more of it naturally. A lot of Skyrim players ended up inadvertently skipping all the events that happen on the way to Riverwood and Whiterun because they just ran as the crow flies.
>quest markers just skip the pointless hassle
"Skipping the pointless hassle" also means that a lot of connecting the dots of what an NPC said and the choices the player can make are taken away or otherwise reduced as the game just gives you a floating marker on places to go.

this might help you
gamasutra.com/blogs/FelipePepe/20160412/270100/The_history_of_the_Quest_Compass__its_dreadful_convenience.php

oh la di da, look at big man here, I bet he found dwemer puzzle box instantly

I don't want to read all that faff, I wanna play the game.

No normal person focuses "exclusively on the game world". Get a fucking life.

>no normal person focuses on the game while playing the game

> ruins Yea Forums forever

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Still not as bad as The Witcher's follow-the-dot magical GPS.

It's easy to navigate the world in AC Odyssey since you can climb everything so terrain isn't a problem.

You're not playing the game when there's a quest marker. The game is playing itself, you're just watching

>it's fine when obsidian do it

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Go to bed Pete!

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Oblivion did this before.

>plays role playing game
>doesn't want to role play

Redpill me on Skyrim

Don't forget your pird.

it's a 7/10 game that is massively overrated by normies.

It's nice to explore and you can just not track quests and pretend most people in the game are cunts that give you less information, or download that one mod that fixes it.

I know it isn't the same genre but how do you feel about the locator in Dead Space then? It's pretty much the same as a quest marker but even includes visible line to where to go

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You do know that following questmarkers actually results in a smaller, diminished hippocampus right?
And that you are more likely to suffer form alzheimers and other degenerative brain diseases because of it?
So people who play plenty of games without questmarkers have normal and healthy brains, kiddies that just follow instructions in their games are actual briainlets.
Your brain just like your body needs to be put through it's paces in order to be strong and healthy.
You are basically defending being stupid and senile, handholding in games is actually quite harmful to you.

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it's a solid 7/10. decent, but not a thinking man's rpg. only worth if you mod it to hell with 100+ mods to fix/replace the shit that it's lacking.

Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle.

yeah but Dead Space isn't an RPG. and the game world is confined to interiors that aren't particularly hard to navigate anyway
quest markers are a bad thing in games that feature QUESTS.

I think questmarkers are stupid but a lot of people that play skyrim do things besides play vidya user

what differentiates an objective from a quest

What mod

a game with quests is a game that allows you to roleplay. immerse yourself and explore a world. quest markers fuck with that
a game like DS has none of that so having a line pointing towards the objective in case you forgot is irrelevant

even better quest objectives

but you can just turn off the quest markers though

? This image only shows the first step of a quest from oblivion while showing multiple steps for gothic. What is this supposed to prove?

Do they really? Phones have GPS systems and you simply follow directions there too, reading a map and trying to figure out directions is not something many people do anymore, maybe older people but the young will always use their phones whenever they need something.
If they're not doing it in games it's unlikely they are doing it in real life because most people live fairly placid lives and have phones to remind them of things as opposed to building strong memory.
It's not just quest markers but reward systems like lootboxes and achievements are doing damage to memory along with the spatial shortcomings of questmarkers, then factor how much time is being spent in these game worlds.
Modern games with modern features, handholding and constant reward fixes, are actually detrimental to a healthy mind.

I disagree, as glowing trails have the same problem in those games as compass/quest markers do in RPGs.

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Yes it did but Oblivion still gave you directions and instructions along with quest markers so you can still easily play the game without them.
Skyrim rarely gave you any information of where you were going and simply relied on the quest markers.

in some games you can, but that doesn't make up for it. turning off the markers doesn't add new lines to your quest log with directions, nor does it add lines of dialogue from NPCs. it just makes the game unplayable because you no longer know where to go at all. like user said here what do you mean?

you could just explore the game despite no directions

youll eventually get to your destination

Yes, my liege

>Quest marker thread
I wonder if bear asses user is going to show up.

99% of those games don't have logs though so if you don't play for a while you can just check where to go. I think having a constant marker is fucking terrible but dead space did a really good job making it fit with the game world and not be intrusive.

But in the end it was Oblivion that started it

>bear asses user
the fuck is that

>complain game is too easy with quest markers
>refuse to turn them off because then it's too haaaaaaaard
lmao RPG babies are a fucking riot

I dunno, the few times I see this thread there is usually an user explaining why one way of doing quest design is better than another by using a quest fetching bear asses as an example.

This is the real issue. In Skyrim, the player character affirms they want to start the quest, then the quest giver just says "okay" and it marks it on your map. Nothing more. It's just lazy and assumes the audience is retarded.

Sorting directions for yourself is more engaging that an immersion breaking arrow.

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Keeping your sense of direction or regaining it is also an element to be aware of in action games and a crucial one for horror, otherwise the game becomes a glorified rail shooter, which in it self isn't bad but defeats the purpose of having freedom of movement in the first place.

When will you learn faggots that not everone is retarded like you and have 20 hours per day to play games? People who have families and work are gamers too so they don't want to spend their 2 hours free time to find a fucking npc.

>enjoy driving across the great American countryside
>with a map, a compass, and good directions written down in your journal, you can get anywhere
>the roads are curvy and smooth, but everything is designed so that you can get to where you're going to if you know where you're going
>really enjoy cruising around
>suddenly one day, autopilot installed in your car
>no need to understand the surroundings or listen to where you're going, just zoom zoom to the next destination marked on your waypoint system
>road system is redesigned with this in mind, no signs or trace tells of where you are or where you should go since everything is in your autopilot
>you can turn autopilot off, but since it's the designed way to travel the roadways now, going without it is a struggle at best and impossible at worst due to road designer over-reliance
>get called a gay baby when you want to just go back to simpler designs

Man, and I thought that asking NPCs where someone was and they'd point towards them when they knew would be standard 20 years ago.

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Not so much ruined as it's much easier to direct the average person towards objects by literally showing them where to go than trusting that they're literate and are able to think critically.

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Ew. I preferred Skyrim lewd posters when it was that guy with the blonde insanely thick babe with a giant penis.
I still agree with your post though.

>When will you learn I don't have the required brain cells to understand cardinal directions and press the forward key?
I'm so sorry user...

>suddenly one day, autopilot installed in your car
Suddenly, your wall of greentext falls apart because you can turn autopilot off. Bravo, RPG baby!

>replying to him
Dude it's clearly fucking bait. Come on

>the truth is bait
Imagine being this mentally ill lmao cant relate

>morrowind
Its clearly oblivion

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Yeah, I remember the quest in Morrowind where I went to Vvardenfell and talked to Caius Cosades.
You fucking retard.

*ruins driving forever*

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The point of driving isn't to get immersed, it's to get somewhere.

If you can shut yourself off from the outside world while playing, then that's very nice, but most of us have children and/or spouses that we need to pay attention to.

You described Skyrim perfectly

Then fucking do that instead! I'm sick of games catering to people that dont want or shouldnt be playing video games.
fuck off!

Normie btfo

He's not wrong. Most working adults don't have time for that unless they still live with parents working part-time at McDonalds

You're sick of games catering to adults? Yea Forums is 18+, kiddo.

Lucky for you you don't even need a quest tracker to find an NPC, you can just use a mirror.

>I'm sick of games catering to responsible people with stable family life and jobs who can be counted on to buy them because they have an income
Too bad.

Better be bait

doors?

>Oblivion
Wow, you are not only retarded, you're also blind.

Probably older than you faggot

I am a responsible adult and in my free time I play video games but some fags that don't want to play the game just pay money to get to where I am or even surpass me, you are cancer!

>I don't have time for games
>but games should cater to me!
yeah, how about no

Are you autistic? Can you multitask? Games shouldn't demand EXCLUSIVE attention from the player because any normal person should be able to pay attention to it and more important things at the same time. Games that require all of your attention all the time are for autistic children who thrive on that sort of singular-focus bullshit. Normal people want GAMES, not mental staring matches.

40 year-old manchildren != adults

>he's never fired up his favorite car in Assetto Corsa and taken it out on a modded scenic road and just drove and appreciated the driving experience
I pity souls like you who cannot appreciate things

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I'm literally seething because I wasn't born autistic so I can never truly experience pleasure in the mundane

Sexlab.

>ASSetto corsa
>instead of the glorious forza horizon
bruh look at this dude

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I'm the type of autistic that doesn't like cars, so yeah. Driving for fun is weird since you're not really trying to get anywhere for a reason, you're just enjoying the ride. But if you have a GPS telling you where to go, it detracts from the experience, since there's a reminder that you have somewhere to be.

I'm fine with or without quest markers. They were overdone by default in Witcher 3, but the player has the option of customising how much handholding they want. If they're something like Skyrim's then I won't mind them, because they only point you in the right direction. They're not a shining beacon on your map or minimap, so you still feel encouraged to explore the area.

Oblivion was one of the first games with moving NPCs though, so it was no longer possible to just say "hes at the bar".

there are plenty of casual phone games for people like you

>game set in the future
>obviously can GPS
>misses all the best side content though, you have the fastes, easies path shown but literally nothing interesting along the way, all the best shit is in obscure alleys and side paths
What do you think of this solution?

but you can just disable it

The fuck are you talking about? Mobile games tend to be exactly the sort of fast-paced arcade or intense puzzle games that do demand the player's full attention while playing.

Unless bethesda added that option without me noticing you literally cannot, only way is to mod it away.

The only game made by bethesda that isn't completely trash

>just disable it dude and then guess what did that desert questgiver mean when saying "by a sand dune"

bethesda games were never rpgs in the first place so fuck off

world where ubisoft makes small improvements to rpg genre

>reading 2 paragraphs requires exclusive attention

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I'm actually hyped for Gods & Monsters.

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I thought you were going to refer to real-life driving, this is much more pathetic.

Don't even know what the game play is.

Did you know in the olden days people read 500 page novels without their children dying from lack of attention.

I don't think you understand what autism means user. Perhaps you have asperger and it went unnoticed.

>customising how much handholding they want
It never works out like that. The games always end up being designed for quest markers turned on and become unplayable without them. I noticed in WoW they don't even bother writing quest text anymore, since everyone just blindly runs towards the quest marker anyway.

shallow normie AAA trash, might give you some hours of fun if you're a fan of RPGs but it'll also make you sad or maybe even depressed about the current state of the genre

*ruins your hamlet forever*

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When I played Morrowind, typically when I'd get a quest to go somewhere, on the way I'd find a cave or tomb or shrine or something. Almost every time I'd go in to see what I could find. When I played Oblivion and got a quest, I would just fast travel to the city closest to the quest marker and then run straight there, ignoring every cave or fort along the way. Markers really make you wear blinders.

On top of the quest marker pinpointing everything they have that spell (clairvoyance?) that draws a line on the ground straight to the quest marker.

you never played Morrowind. The game most certainly does not require all of your attention all the time.

>refuse the turn off the marker
>complain about marker bring there
Complete autism

I don't think Bethesda games even have the option to turn them off and they are completely designed around there use. Skyrim might as well just be a movie that plays itself once you click start on the main menu.

Dude ive played skyrim without markers for years,and always found my way. Sure some quests are a bitch without it,but finding dungeons,camps,outposts etc is really easy.

You can't turn off an idea you dumb dumb. The concept is out there and the new norm, and ALL games have a linear pattern to them. That's the whole point of this thread, how did you miss the point of this thread user? Are you having brain issues?

Oh look it's someone who's never played Morrowind. Quest directions was one of the best parts of Morrowind. People would give you shitty directions sometimes, and you'd end up getting lost pretty easily. It wouldn't be that frustrating cause you'd always find some cool shit whenever that happened.

Oblivion was just as bad as Skyrim for this, I don't know why Skyrim gets all the hate. Skyrim is objectively a better, more polished version of Oblivion

Fast Travel ruins any kind of exploration and adventure

Dead Space has side quests

>he is so broken that he rather get immersed in fake rpg shit than the real world around him

Couldnt be more zoomed if you try

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Fast Travel + Quest Markers, a killer combo, guaranteed to ruin any RPG

*sips*
back in my day we had to read 3 pages of directions from NPCs and walk 40 minutes without any sprint underleveled through elite mob spawns to get to the quest start
kids these days just teleport to the dungeon treasure room from their dang ipads

Fortunately there's a mod fixing that shit, Better Quest Objectives or something like that.

0/10

Guilty of the same sins and yet it’s loved

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because it's a good game in spite of that.

and then pay $2.99 to open the gold chest

Because it has other things working in its favor.

>sold less and scored lower than Fallout 3
>loved

It's the exact opposite, you use it to know what to explore before you complete the objective

Because zoomers pretend to like it

then you're just retarded. Oblivion is amazing for exploration because of the huge variety of side quests. It's not the game's fault you chose to skip everything

The Gothic one is deceptive. It's a journal that constantly updates with each new piece of information. That's still a thing in gaming. In fact, most non-AAA RPGs don't have any form of quest marker.

>game designed a certain way isn't shit because I'm actively making the experience longer so I can pretend it's as good as the previous game
Who's the retard, retard?

the game isn't designed to skip everything. The game allows you to do it but the fact that there is so much shit to do and see means they didn't mean for you to do it, at least not the fist couple of playthroughs. That's like saying Morrowind was designed to give you boots of blinding speed and 100% levitation because it's possible to do it

Role playing games are ultimately about player choice. If you CHOOSE to play like a retard, that's not the devs fault, it's yours

If fast travel wasn't unlimited and was actually a part of the world like in Morrowind your point would be okay, but it isn't.
The devs didn't take the time and effort to make a coherent world with means of transportation that make sense in it, and put a shitty fast travel mechanic, they are at fault.

>it's fun if you make it fun

Games are becoming more and more dumbed down for the masses. Games are degrading in complexity by the year. So why are you guys still playing modern releases?

>gothic instead of daggerfall
Hmmmmm....

Why not just watch a movie if you want to be instantly gratified?

I dont like how the quest marker is over everything, but I have no issue with just a compass and being able to mark a spot on the map. A compass is just there for the convenience of not having to pull out your map constantly to know you are going in the right direction.

If a character is able to mark a spot on your map, why not have the direction displayed on screen? The real issue is that non-map spots are marked, like doors inside dungeons

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A quest is just going from point-A to point-B now, there is no deductive reasoning involved, there is no exploration involved, pretty much every quest is the same as a result. You aren't going to stumble upon any secrets or cool shit when you are just following a GPS coordinate the entire time, it turns both questing and exploration into a chore.

I find it easier to get immersed when the GPS is on, because it means I can just enjoy the comfy ride instead of having to look at every sign to know where to go. I can also drive in another direction and not worry about getting lost.

>not worry about getting lost
That's what the map is for.

sounds like you need to immerse yourself in some pusy

quest markers actually encourage exploration and going off the beaten path, because it means you can just walk across the land off the roads to get there. Otherwise you are probably be going to following the roads and signs to know you are going in the right direction.

Is this supposed to make Morrowind's quests look simple?
That's not the first quest you get in Gothic but those are literally the first instructions you're handed at the start of Morrowind.

Yea Forums ruined Yea Forums forever.

I literally do not understand the problem. If you can mark a spot on your map, how is this any different from a quest marker? If you have a map, then you effectively already have a "quest marker" because it is telling you the right direction to go. I understand that maybe you want characters to explain which direction to go, and they should be better with that, but the existence of a quest marker itself is not really a problem. It was fine in AC Odyssey for instance.

>That one mission where you have to find that retarded dude's sister's corpse underwater with no clues other than she went to the small island (and her body isn't even at the island).

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>actually a part of the world like in Morrowind
>go up to static boat or static cockroach or temple
>click yes
basically the difference is that in Morrowind you have to physically go to the magic instant fast travel and in Oblivion you don't. I guess it makes a difference to some people

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Quest marker is terrible element in a game where exploration and adventure are core game elements. You stop thinking and inspecting the environment completely and just hold W. It robs a simple game of its gameplay's charm in favor of helping illiterate people complete the game.

For me it was the total opposite, in morrowind i always followed the directions exactly because otherwise i was worried i would lose the trail and get lost. if there's directions like "find the cairn on the beach and turn straight south until you reach the spot" you cant really afford to go off into another dungeon

people like you are the reason why horse riding in RDR2 is so fucking slow and boring. "just use fast travel if you want to get somewhere".

It matters because this way a developer can design the world around where a player needs to walk or where they can get around quickly. Many quests in Morrowind rely on you being able to get fast between certain towns but expect reaching certain places taking a lot more work.
In Oblivion, you can't always fast travel, and that's when you realize why they implemented it in the first place: running around Tamriel is boring and time-consuming. Because "muh big map".

if someone is able to give you directions that you can mark on a map, there is no reason to not have a direction marker for it.

it was a bandaid over a major design problem.

going around morrowind is also boring and time consuming. when doing a quest line where you have to go back to vivec all the time, for instance, you basically have to use a Mark and Recall spell to retain your sanity. Going back and forth into the city is a slow pain in the ass.

Most of the quests in Skyrim aren't like this.
Conversely, if you have a map and instructions on where to go, what do you need a quest marker for? At that point it's as good as already being there in your head.

thats a compass, not a GPS. you still need to navigate around stuff.

Going around in Morrowind is about three times faster than in Oblivion. There's also more content along the roads. In Oblivion, everything is around the towns.

Probably the worst thing about having the interface play the game for you is the tunnel vision effect it introduces.

I noticed back when I played skyrim that I was looking at the compass more often than the actual game.

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Nope, it's just autistic boomer whinging that doesn't mean anything. Same thing with fast travel.
What does ruin RPGs are things that are optional but it is absolutely required to pass to certain areas and isn't communicated to the player at all.

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>Conversely, if you have a map and instructions on where to go, what do you need a quest marker for?
its just for the convenience of not having to constantly pull out your map to know you are going in the right compass direction.

The game should at least have a HUD map.

Did you guys ever play fucking Asheron's Call back in the day? Zero quest markers. And you know what?

They even had goddamn Map Coordinates and it was still a royal pain in the ass trying to find a lot of shit.

based adhd zoomer

Poor excuses

Did it? The NPCs basically tell you exactly where the location is, you open the map and the notes from the conversation are there, so you just mark the spot and have the marker on your screen. Its a bit better, I guess, but all you're getting is just a few more seconds of having to look at a map to mark the right spot. I do like how the characters actually tell you the directions, though.

>I love getting lost

said no fucking body

More like has ruined games forever. You can't ever have a game without this shit anymore.

>In Oblivion, everything is around the towns
that's pure bullshit. Some of the best quests I found were in small inns way out on the road

>Old RPGs
>Here is the objective, it is located in this dungeon about a mile away from town. You take this road, and then look to your left to find it.
>It's then entirely up to you to find the objective with only a vague notion of where it is from a spotty series of directions that may not even be accurate with no warning of what you might encounter along the way.

>Modern RPGs
>Here's the objective, I'll mark it on your map
>You can open the map and see where you have to walk to in order to see it.
>Along the way, you can clearly see a very visible ambush point where you'll probably be jumped by bandits.
>You already visited the road that leads there earlier and can see it uncovered on your map, so you know that you'll probably encounter the same bear you killed earlier.

That's how. What's the point of a game about adventure when all the adventure is boiled out?
IMO All modern RPGs should have maps and objective markers like Miasmata had. You have a map of the area, but unless you have a compass and a landmark; it's basically fucking worthless. Sometimes, that map isn't even correct and you have to erase landmarks and add new ones. There are trails and roads listed, but none of them are named or marked, so you're just left with a vague direction to wander in with no clue if the road you're on is even the one marked on your map.

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I dont see the difference. In Morrowind if someone gives you direction, you are effectivelly following from point A to point B. Sure, maybe you have to be a bit more aware of your surroundings but there is still basically little exploration involved.
>You aren't going to stumble upon any secrets or cool shit when you are just following a GPS coordinate
a compass marker is not really the same thing as a GPS coordinate.

>Going around in Morrowind is about three times faster than in Oblivion
sure, if you abuse game mechanics and have 100% acrobatics. Otherwise LMAO

Nah, it's because the gameplay area is more dense from not being designed to allow free teleportation.

>I dont see the difference.
You should play the game. You're going from point A to point B, but you have no clue what you're going to find when you go there or what landmarks will be in your way. The direction indicator there to make you wander and then find fun things to do on the overworld. Which you skip if you just have a place on the map you have to go, and you choose the optimal path to get there.
>compass marker
Games shouldn't have this, either. Telling you to wander in a direction that updates to account for how far you've drifted off the path isn't much more complex than a map marker.

Kino game unless you are a retard who can't into modding like the 90% of Yea Forums

Not really, Morrowind has a very small map. It's way easier to traverse to places in Morrowind only because the towns are almost right next to one another.
If you remove the fog, you quickly realize that places that are treated as being days away are only a two minute walk.

there is nothing immersion breaking about fast travel. you can easily just imagine your character walking to the destination. the only way it breaks immersion is if the world is so incredibly dangerous that survival is never assured. this is not really the case in most games, though

>he doesn't disable all the hud
oh no no no no

it's the effectively the same mechanism but in a different genre
RPGs rely much more heavily on exploration, it's a bigger problem

>can't see health magic or stamina
cool

you do know what you're going to find because the NPCs tell you your destination in their directions.
>Games shouldn't have this, either.
if you have a map, then you basically have a compass marker. a compass marker on screen is really no functionally different from opening up your map all the time and looking to see which direction you are going.

stop trying to make everything a thing

the map is very small but you still move at a snail's pace at default

I actually like marking a spot on my map and being able to follow a marker I set, and then walking there and seeing what I find in the meantime.

you can't disable the lazily built world

quest marker isnt the problem, its NPCs not telling you directions when they should, is the actual problem

>quest markers just skip the pointless hassle
Why not just have a button that auto completes the quest for you? Seems like the whole thing is a pointless hassle.

You know you can turn it off right?

you can configure it to see magic, stamina and health

>le boomer
fuck off reddit

This. If characters were more descriptive you wouldn’t need markers but noobs could still use them it they felt the need.

Can’t do shit with only questmarkers and no directions

Exploration mode in odyssey was totally fine.

>needing the game to auto write down and remember things for you instead of using your own hand and brain
yikes...

Fast travel is fine if it's limited in some way like it is in morrowind. A bunch of different ways to get around, but none of them let you just warp to the nearest cave/camp/interesting bit of forest (unless you count mark/recall but that's limited in it's own way).

I feel like a sóygoy watching a swastika whenever I see this shit in the catalog

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>doomers cant into games after 1990

It's better than "Go find the White Guar... somewhere..."

The game has the capacity to be descriptive tard

The game was designed with the assumption that players had quest markers on. NPC's don't say "go out of town, follow this trail, and turn here" like in Morrowind. Turning the quest markers off, you'd have no directions of where to actually go to do a quest, let alone when quests have objective locations that change as you're doing them with no supporting dialogue at all.

6/10 without mods, 7-8/10 with mods. Overall pretty fun just not very deep.

>quest markers in BOTW just pointed you back to the quest giver rather than the objective most of the times
That was a nice twist desu

But then you have no clue where to go because the journal doesn't give you directions.

This is why I turned off the GPS directions in GTAIV at the beginning. You don't learn how the city is laid out or how to get places on your own if you depend on the game to tell you where to turn.

>Objectively
>Not as many cool glitches
It's trash

>I'll mark it on your map

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>look in the world for a White Gaur
>look at the compass for a White Gaur

Why the fuck wouldn’t someone mark something on your map if they could

Did I give you permission to draw on my map?

lil zoom zoom doesn't know that oblivion did it first

perfectly fine, as long as you have to acquire a map first, they ask you for permission to mark shit on your map, and then it's actually just a marking on a map rather than a GPS arrow on your screen

>Most working adults don't have time for that
Yes, please dumb down everything even more because adults don't have time! Fucking stupid excuse.

This. You never actually need to check the map in skyrim, you just mindlessly follow your compass. And unless they guy had an in-depth map of the dungeon itself how did he mark the exact location of the item? If the marker just led you to the dungeon and you had to explore it yourself I would have less of a problem with it.

And now I don't know where the fuck to go because the game was not built with no compass in mind.

Why the fuck not have a compass arrow in the screen? What’s the difference between having a compass marker and having to pull out your map all the tile just to check you are still going in the right direction? There is absolutely no difference.

Also a compass marker is not the same thing as GPS marker. RDR2 is a gps marker because it tells you exactly which roads to follow

zoom zoom

a compass is fine
a compass tuned for each quest is not
hell, giving you a gps and showing your position on the map is already a bit much

Right, they don’t need a compass for each quest, but if you mark the spot on the map yourself, I see nothing wrong with a compass marker on screen, and it’s actually preferable to nothing.

There are many reasons why I personally hate them, some of them being that I like minimalistic UIs, I like immersion, I like having things be visually incorporated into the game world. Same reason why I only like fast travel when it's an actual in-world mode of transport, like in Morrowind.

Zoomers love Skyrim map icon over the other two because you don't have to read stuff and zoomers hate reading.

I'll give you that, sure, I don't mind there being an option to set a waypoint on the map for yourself and have a compass arrow if you wish to. But it'd be neat if you also had to acquire a compass first.

I don't even want maps and auto-journals in games.

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bethesda ruined rpgs before skyrim was even released lol this was just an extra nail in the coffin

>Talk to NPC
>"Hey, I got a new job for you."
>Accept
Yeah, this is going to be easy without quest markers.

I'm fine with maps as in-game items you have to find and purchase. I'd like them to be imperfect though, and have many variations depending on where you get it.
Agreed about auto journals. The player actually having to remember what an NPC said, imagine that!

>we will never have a proper RPG with Miasmata's map system
Why live?

its a very solid 6/10 with mods.

No, what ruined RPGs was lack of mechanics and elements.
People spend 4 hours creating appearances of their hot waifu protagonist, while that time could be used to create out stats, attributes and other contributing factors that makes the character actually diverse from other protagonists you would create on another playthrough.

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its not loved.
we have to defend it since its all we get in this shitty timeline.

Voiced protagonist is worse

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You can literally turn the fuckin markers off in most games that have these

what if being a hot waifu protagonist does bring stats and perks ?

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>All that unnecessary fluff just to tell you to bring some salt to a dude.
Skyrim is based.

And they're replaced by nothing, dumbfuck.

>I can't be motivated to explore on my own terms, if I see a map marker anywhere on my screen then I'm obligated to ignore everything else and follow it

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The issue is that the games are designed around the quest markers, so they are fucked without them.

All you have to do is pay attention to what the NPCs say and use your map

What the fuck do you want to replace them with?

Fucking this you retarded OP. Just go out and explore

>Listen to the NPCs
>I'll mark it on your map.
based

The NPCs don't give you proper directions, because the game developers assumed you are using map markers. Replace it with the Morrowind journal system

is
>it's more convenient
the biggest red flag in game design?

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why not both

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>Lazy game design
Are you actually this retarded? It's up to the player to directly follow. Blame lazy gamers.

no. even a game like morrowind makes tons of compromises for convenience. full, total realistic immersion would be really boring and tedious.

Think of it like this: Have you ever used cheat codes on a game? It completely ruins the game because you get everything without effort, and it's hard to get that magic back when you try normally because you now know how to cheat it.

That's how "convenience" ruins games.

in skyrim anyway i tried to do that and some people and quest descriptions literally don't tell you where to go. so i just do the in the middle and use the hide ui mod which disables the compass and only shows it while you hold down x

your word filter tripped up

I wish, never going to have this deep level of conversation with NPCs in modern RPGs ever again.

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...

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Quest Markers are an excuse for lazy quest design.

>Turn off quest markers in Skyrim
>Skyrim's ""Journal"" just says "X wants me to go kill Y at Noname cave"

Skyrim's quest design was made assuming you were going to follow the floating arrow forever.

>Dunmer female
>"Nymph" in Primary Skill

checks out

if the npcs know where it is and you have a map why can't they just mark it?

Several NPCs in Morrowind do this for you already as well.

>Because it's a lazy game design that makes you dart to objectives instead of exploring the world
all my normie friends said how big and explorable skyrim was. and how they were constantly said they were finding new cool things by just going out and exploring.
literally the only people saying it hurts world exploration are you fucking "hardcore" faggots.
why are you such fucking casuals that a little arrow at the top of the screen hurts exploration for you?

>deep

None of these conversations were ever deep, unless you consider info dumps “deep”

A well written character with plenty of exposition would be pic related.

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skyrim is perfectly playable without quest markers.
if the quest giver knows the location they mark it on your map. bring up your map and use your eyeballs to find the nearest roads.

then you are a complete fucking idiot worse than all those normie gamers that Yea Forums always complains about.
all the normie people who played skyrim explored it completely.

>normie
You have to go back

>You aren't going to stumble upon any secrets or cool shit
except you have to you fucking idiot.
once you finished the quest what do you have at the top of your screen?
absolutely nothing, requiring you to go out and explore and find new quests or locations.

>Most of the quests in Skyrim aren't like this.
name one

again only you faggots complain about this.
everyone i know just talked about how cool exploring skyrim was.

You should then go talk to "everyone" instead of us.

I seriously think these guys have it backwards. If anything the marker encourages you to explore, because 1. you can just go straight across the map, through the non-road landscapes and patches, instead of following the roads and noticeable landmarks to find a spot, and 2. you know that if you go off the path, you will always be able to find your way to the objective.

You autists will literally argue about anything.

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they either mark it on your map or tell you everytime in skyrim.
i don't know why people keep saying it is unplayable when multiple people have said they have completed the game just fine turning them off.

Skyrim/Oblivion quest markers are not good, but they aren't as bad as people like to bitch about.

The saving grace for them is that you can't teleport somewhere unless you have been there already. This means that when your quest marker sends you accross the map, you still have to get there somehow at least once, which tends to mean you will be stumbling across other things along the way.

The problem mostly manifests about 30-50% of the way into the game, when you have visited enough locations that you can teleport nearby to anything you need to get to, limiting your chances to stumble onto something new.

What actually would have been good in Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim is if the map had a good fog of war system for exploration, making it more obvious where you have/haven't explored and therefore giving a good visual guide of places yet unseen. Morrowind kind of had this, but it only colored cells that you had loaded, and didn't really have much to do with whether or not you've actually explored a cell (considering default view distance was far less than the area of each cell).

why are you too fucking stupid to follow an icon on the map to your current location and figure out the way between the two with your eyeballs?

so then what is the problem?

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>this post
can you believe these zoomers? holy fuck

I know right. People playing the game differently than the way I do?? Who'd a thunk!

Yeah, technology makes it easier so you don't have to do that.

This is something I honestly hadn't considered. It's just speeding up your process to get the same goal.

I think they best approach would be a mix of both. Give us a marker that tells us where the town is, but not the person/item we're looking for. That way casuals aren't turned off by reading, but it gives hard core gamers the satisfaction of figuring shit out themselves.

Or you know, turn off the fucking thing in your settings..

It's a modern RPG that panders well to the general gamer audience well. It makes a solid gateway WRPG for casuals.

Shit, was Morrowind really that wordy? Maybe that's why it doesn't have voice acting.

Unfortunately these are necessary in today’s games. The dialogue is so poorly written, the quests are uninspiring, and the world is way too large and inconsistent.

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>people falling for this bait image
the only difference between morrowind and skyrim is that morrowind records it in your journal.
in skyrim all that information is conveyed to you. you just don't record it like an autist.

If it's marked on your map it's marked on your compass and the marker pops up if you are close enough.

That cabinet looks like wood.

desu this is only bad design if there's no conceivable way you should know where something is

NPCs would still mark some things on your map in morrowind, map markers there would be fine

But he's wrong, the whole point is to get to player to actually look at the game instead of following a dot.
Games have so much shit on the minimap/radar these days that the whole game might just be played on them.

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I say it: I dont want to read walls of text. I dont want to figure out where what is and search for hours. I dont give a fuck. I want to play the game.

I disagree. The point of the game is for players to complete quests, level up, and kill dragons.

I know this is an exaggeration, but imagine if tetris gave you a description of the next block instead of just showing you. Think about how modern gamers handled the pictures in BotW.. they all just looked up the spots online because the majority of people don't want to waste hours searching/reading for stuff.

I met plenty of people who spout the "i love skyrim/fallout 4! Exploration is great!". You want to know what else they say? That they never finished the fucking games, whenever I try to talk about quests they never go beyond the first introduction quests.

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I was talking about our point, not the point of the game.

>quest markers just skip the pointless hassle

Why are you even playing an open world game if you want zero pointless hassles in a game? Play Metal Slug.

Also recall that the orignal Morrowind released on a single CD-ROM. You'd have deal with really low quality audio samples, or really cut back on the total word count, to have every line of dialogue voiced.

Because the alternative is popping open a menu, opening up your quest log and taking a peek
This is just cutting out a middleman; unless you're that dumb that reading a map which is literally just four compass directions and some names comes off as difficult, the only difference is some text and menu opening.

And since it just highlights an NPC's name it's not like you have to sleuth it either.
I don't get the hype over opening a menu as opposed to having it squarely on the HUD.

That example is actually more acceptable for Tetris than other games. If the next block panel in a Tetris game simply had a big letter "Z", "T", "L", etc., instead of the image of the block, most players would adapt quickly.

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>I don't get the hype over opening a menu as opposed to having it squarely on the HUD.
One of them literally gives you brain damage.

That is indeed better that way, unless the RPG in question actually tries to breathe some life into its world which should be the main point for an RPG to strive for.

I sure missed wondering around invisible walls for ages until I happen open a open hole in the wall, so immersive for my mature brain!

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Sounds great; talk to people in taverns, buy a book about monsters, etc. Oh wow it eats mostly deers, usually has nests in swamps but has started eaten Johnsons sheep because the fucking goblins scared off the wildlife.

Actually low IQ.

Markers encourage lazy level/world design. Removing them isn’t answering the problem

>What the fuck do you want to replace them with?
Actual world building for an RPG would be nice.

ESO is boring as fuck.

Things are so bad now that zoomers cant even imagine an alternative.

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>eagle vision
>quest markers
>button prompts always on screen
What casual bait game is this?

Thanks for indirectly proving you are a brainlet.

I think that's Asscreed.

This would backlash.

she tells you to find a stone structure that looks like a hand. Then follow the Guar.

wikis

I seriously think you have this backwards. Quest marker discourages exploration because 1. it takes your focus and prevents you from noticing the environment 2. it gives you a straight answer which stops you from doing the math (in a figurative sense) yourself.

I don't think this would be a "solution" to the problem of a player not knowing where all the stuff is due to the sheer number of content that would be hidden (they'd have to spend more time reading the fucking wiki than 100%ing the game), the fact that someone would have to find it first to write about it on wiki and the fact that people reading the wiki would have to know what to look for in the first place

It does appear to be that way. But it really isn't. For a second let's forget about "immersion" and just pretend we are okay with doing quests that boil down to "follow the arrow" and kill stuff. Even if we are okay with not knowing why we are doing what we are doing (i.e. the game writing down what an NPC just said), it's pretty boring to have every quest have the same "follow the arrow" stage. You can say "well, the alternative is follow directions, and kill stuff", but every quest has different directions, whereas there's only one way to follow the arrow, and that's to place it straight ahead and make a run for it. You can't get lost, you can't get your bearings and find the location on your own.

Some very boring quests got much better in Morrowind because finding the destination was a fun challenge in and of itself.

Why have quests at all? Or if you really want to put quests in your game, why not have them all in a single area, let's say a 10 meters radius? It would remove all the hassle of following a fucking arrow without even knowing why the fuck you're going there or even where the fuck you're going. Just have everything happen in front of you. I mean, killing mobs and fetching stuff for quest givers clearly is the only meaningful interaction in your game, right?

Why do you keep making this thread?

>they never finished the fucking games,
Normalfags never finished games and that applies to all games of any genre. People already knew this since the NES days.

It's a good thread, go back to your waifu containment thread if that's what you dog

>check global steam achievements on a variety of games
>the more popular the game is the less people finished the main story line even if the game is single player only
>check achievements on porn games and such
>they always have good completion rates
The reasons for this are all super obvious but I'm a cheap shit who likes to get his money's worth so I always assume even the most casual players would finish their games so it always surprises me to see that they don't

My ass, they don't explore shit, all they do is follow the straightest line between one objective marker and another, they occasionally stumbl on a location on their way there or see a random encounter and that's about it, skip or ignore most dialogue, then they get bored after a few hours and never finish any quests and miss most of the content, and most of the content that is there is cut and paste dungeons, with minimal story and leveled loot.
All they ever remember of the game is the memes, lines repeated hundreds of times like Nazir and funny bugs.

Their definition of exploring is not the same as ours. To them running at every marker that shows up on the radar is exploring.

>There are people right now who still fucking care about skyrim
Fucking get over it jesus christ you goddamn dumb nigger. One RPG in a pile of hundreds. Pick one and get on with your life.

5/10 average rpg
10/10 GOAT sexgame

>he has never gotten into his car, thrown on some tunes, and just started driving

>finding new locations is not the fucking definition of exploring
what is exploring then you fucking idiot?

>all they do is follow the straightest line between one objective marker and another,
you can't get quests if you don't talk to npcs.
and none of the quest npcs are marked.
so these people aren't even playing the games then?

Thank god they labeled it.

>you can't get quests if you don't talk to npcs
Not true, how do most people get the Companions quest?
Aela comes up to them, they don't have to initiate nor are able to decline.
How do you get the Thieves guild quest?
Brynjolf comes up to them and you don't get to decline, there are plenty of quest givers that just walk up to you give you quests without you initiating it just by simply being in the area.
Some quests you simply have to be within ear shot of people speaking about a topic before it's added to your journal.
There are also plenty of ordinary npcs and merchants that if you simply ask about the city in general will automatically throw you into a quest not related to them but simply happens to be in the area.
Did you also forget about the courier that comes to you all the time to give you quests?
Exploration is hardly needed in Skyrim, the devs made sure of that by how they structured quest giving and quest markers.

It's a 6/10 RPG.

It's also the best porn game.

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oblivion did it first, but it also gave you the option to disable it, and the quest log had actual instructions on where to go and all written as a real journal.
skyrim questing depends enterily on the quest marks and the guidelines of the questlog is usually one phrase long.

>ruins
>by increasing playerbase and enjoyment 10 fold
The only thing it ruined is gatekeeping. You faggots feel special by excluding people from your hobbies. I for one am glad that they tell morons like you to piss off, because a) they gain more customers and b) the customer base overall is happier. You can rot in your depression like the faggot you are because the only way for you to be happy is by making everyone around yourself miserable.

>The only thing it ruined is gatekeeping.
>making people actually read and look at something other than the compass is gatekeeping
>removing the option to hide markers so people can play how they like isn't

honestly I hope more RPG's will just copy breath of the wild in that regard

>DUDE I LOVED WHEN GAMES WERE SHITTIER
>OLD THING SO GOOD NEW THING JUST BAD

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back to plebbit

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just popped into the thread to tell you to go dilate

That's not voiced protagonists and a billion cutscenes

>the old way is now a "newer approach"
well at least someone is trying to redpill normies on the correct way to play an RPG.

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It's all Todd's fucking fault. He introduced quest markers to RPGs and microtransactions in the same fucking game.

Markers are ok as long as it points to the location, not actual chest contain the required object or 1 specific npc in a city

Just do it like Larian did in Div:OS

>ass creed is on autopilot by default

Crafting systems dealt a big blow to RPGs in my opinion,i wanted to replay Divinity II but then realized that you can just make essential items like res scrolls by just consulting a wiki instead of needing to get a recipe in the game,fucking retarded and it killed all my interest.

>Because it's a lazy game design
it's a minor detail. If the game design is bad quest markers are a symptom of the problem not the actual problem.

>The NPCs basically tell you exactly where the location is,
just like in the old rpg games boomer
>you open the map and the notes from the conversation are there
just like in the old rpg games boomie
>so you just mark the spot and have the marker on your screen
again just like in the old rpg games

>Quest marker discourages exploration because 1. it takes your focus and prevents you from noticing the environment
its the opposite. if i have to follow a road or landmarks i am looking ONLY for those and basically ignoring everything else. on the other hand with a quest marker i can more easily look around at everything

its AC Unity and they give an extensive options for turning off hud elements so this complaint it kinda retarded

old games had a marker on the screen?

What is the last great WRPG that didn't have shitty quest markers or arrows and you had to rely on asking for directions from talking to NPCs and road signs.

nope,had a journal that told you where to go in detail

i think a fair compromise is to have certain quests give quest markers when it makes sense (npc marks it on your map), but to change the map itself to being something tangible, like an actual physical map you carry around that doesnt pinpoint your exact location. that way you have to pay attention to landmarks and directions to make sure you're on the right path. havent tried this myself in skyrim or oblivion though.

not counting elder scrolls games, older games usually didn't need quest markers and shit because the worlds didn't need them. You didn't have a huge samey world full of cookie-cutter dungeons and shallow quests.

>older games weren't samey blended muddy garbage

what they do like is learning the terrain and the world, though, so they are able to not be lost even without a map to help them.
The issue is with the design of the game world more than the markers themselves.

its honestly just not that fun to pull out your map so much. its fun to look at the map and mark a waypoint, like in AC Odyssey. Its not so fun to constantly pull out the map all the time when just walking to a destination, unless its a very specific type of game. i dont think it would be fun in most games

I have a deja vu

they weren't
and the dungeon crawler exceptions like Wizardry or Eye of the Beholder are specifically designed to be that way for the sake of difficulty which a coddled zoomer like yourself wouldn't understand.

I hope Elden Ring won't have quest markers.

I guess at your age everything looks a bit blurry

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHH

Skyrim's dungeons are extremely bland. Stop trying to defend them you're just making yourself look retarded.

I would love an answer also.
For me it's Baldur's Gate 2 and Everquest (if you want to count MMOs).

why does no one ever complain about this for new vegas?

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morrowind

lying to yourself
funniest thing about being a boomer in this thread is having been old enough to need to use maps to find places IRL and actually seeing the difference in how little people were able to learn about their environment after they no longer needed to learn anything.

The exception was some women though, who could never find anything anyway before GPS's so now at least were no longer constantly getting lost and having to ask for help.

That reminds me of the time a female friend could not understand the point of compasses no matter how hard I tried to explain the very simple concept.