Did Arthur deserve his fate?

Did Arthur deserve his fate?

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It's hard to say. His change comes on from fear of death, not a genuine will to change. He's seeking redemption to get forgiveness in the afterlife because he's scared.

Is that a noble thing to do? Does the reason why he does all the good things he does matter? If they do to you, then he probably deserved it. If the motivation doesn't really matter, then he didn't.

I think he was always inherently good.
You know when people are with their friends, they turn into assholes? I look at it like that. He was trying to keep an image.

>still no PC announcement
wtf is wrong with Rockstar?

Yeah I can definitely see that but that's on Arthur. If he didn't act good just because of peer pressure, he wasn't a good man, no matter what was inside. I agree that inside, he was a very sweet and caring person, but he never showed it to anyone until his time was up, so what was the point? That's like that silent kid who's extremely nice but he never talks so everyone just assumes he's kind of a dick and presumptuous.

None of the characters in the game are straight up evil. They all do bad stuff for good reasons. They all believe they're right.

He has been influenced by Dutch since the ace of 13, so imagine you were then. He was confused.
I think that's why he started questioning Dutch when people started dying off.

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he literally threatens an ill man with violence for not paying his debts and the man eventually dies- his wife can be seen giving Strauss money and mentions his death. Not to mention the countless people he kills in the game such as that guy you have a fist fight with and have to catch the witness.

He and his gang were not altruistic.

Yes and no. Yes, in that he was a bad person who did bad things and deserved the equal recompense for those things. No, in that his life just like every human life was outside of his own control and he was merely a product of circumstances.
>to get forgiveness in the afterlife because he's scared
I doubt Arthur believed in any afterlife. The "I'm afraid" line when he's talking to the nun is referencing his fear of non-existence. Weird as it is to say, the sheer terror and vulnerability that falls across his face for a moment when he says the line tells me he could only be talking about the fear of true death. That plus he never gives any indication of being a religious man or holding any religious views, in fact I'm pretty sure at one point he says he isn't a religious man.

Someone on here once said that John secretly loves violence whereas Arthur secretly hates it. I thought it was a pretty apt description.

You can see Dutch sermoning about how "everything is temporary" early in the game. I think he takes after Dutch's views.

>Not to mention the countless people he kills in the game such as that guy you have a fist fight with and have to catch the witness.
What? He didn't kill that guy. Before you start acting the retard and pretending that the witnesses's shrieks should be taken as word of God, the guy was clearly just frightened and exaggerating.

>he literally threatens an ill man with violence for not paying his debts

peer pressure

That's the beauty of RDR2's writing. Pretty much every character is nuanced enough that they left space for players to read between the lines and come up with their own interpretations.
Was Arthur actually a good person?
Was Dutch crazy from the start? Did he lose his mind after the crash and Hosea's death? Was he just a conman who got exposed when things went bad?
Was Abigail one of the rats?
etc

That's what I meant.
>in fact I'm pretty sure at one point he says he isn't a religious man
that's the thing though, no one is a religious man until they stare death in the eyes and start to question everything and reevaluating their entire lives. Arthur was clearly afraid of and battling after-life questions. No one goes on a redemption quest if they truly believe there's nothing on the other side.

What? He doesn't get up. He is dead.

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.

I'm glad they left it up you.

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That makes a lot of sense

People who are knocked out don't get up retard, why do I even have to explain this?

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>Arthur was clearly afraid of and battling after-life questions.
Do you know what "clearly" means? Arthur never once indicates a belief in the afterlife, nor does he ask questions about it or show any sort of fixation or attention to it once he learned he was dying. All of his fears are about his fear of death and the fear that his life meant nothing.
>I beat a man to death for...for a few bucks.
This isn't the line of someone afraid of some arbitrary hell he's just invented, instead it shows that he's reflecting on the evil he did in his life (which he always secretly despised doing) and realizing that it was all meaningless. Why did he do such heinous acts? For money? The thought disgusts him even more that death is right ahead of him.
Notice also that the nun reads this appropriately and instead of trying to assuage his fears of "hell" or talk about forgiveness and judgment, she simply says
>There is nothing to be afraid of, Mr. Morgan.
To me this is obvious commentary on the simple truth one human can offer another that death is not to be feared. "There is nothing to be afraid of." The statement can be taken literally.
Arthur's questions weren't on the afterlife, they were on his own life - in the immediate.

>No one goes on a redemption quest if they truly believe there's nothing on the other side.
I don't believe this is true. This is only true if you're talking about a person who only thinks in terms of personal gain and personal loss. Arthur's quest for redemption applied to his own life in the here and now - making it worth something, right now. It wasn't about some theoretical extended existence he might have elsewhere. That, to me, makes his quest more meaningful.

I think you're a fedora tipper and are assuming that I mean that Arthur fully converted to Christianism and would go to church if he wasn't busy. I don't.

This is quite literally too complicated and I don't have the patience to argue over it. The way Arthur starts battling with good & evil when he finds out his time has come is in an of itself a religious theme, because the concept of Good & Evil are intrinsically linked to religion. The way Arthur expresses his fear of death is him battling with the after life and what it all reflects on his life. That is a religious struggle.

>which he always secretly despised doing
cool fanfiction. he seemed to have a lot of fun beating the shit out of thomas downes to me, but maybe I hallucinated.

>I think you're a fedora tipper
I'm actually a Christian. You know what they say about assumptions.
> are assuming that I mean that Arthur fully converted to Christianism and would go to church if he wasn't busy. I don't.
Didn't think that. Please either address the topic at hand or don't.
>This is quite literally too complicated and I don't have the patience to argue over it.
Then why even respond?
>when he finds out his time has come is in an of itself a religious theme
Religions cover it, but good and evil is not intrinsically a religious theme. Although I would say in RDR2 it was. But that also doesn't therefore imply a belief in the afterlife.
>. The way Arthur expresses his fear of death is him battling with the after life and what it all reflects on his life.
Proofs?
>That is a religious struggle.
If that's actually the case then yeah, sure.
>he seemed to have a lot of fun beating the shit out of thomas downes to me, but maybe I hallucinated.
Read the journal entries you goddamned pleb.

>his change comes on from fear of death
I really don't think this is true. I think his change comes from knowing everything he holds as true or dear was possibly a lie or a con.

Arthur wasn't religious nor do I think he believed in the afterlife, he's just a conflicted person who validated his bad deeds with good intentions for the only family he's had. As soon as Dutch starts falling back on his own teachings to Arthur regarding greed and revenge, Arthur starts to doubt his past and present situation.

From the journal notes alone, he was always a good person, just deeply flawed and ignorant. It took him a new perspective from death to finally not be afraid of the consequences of his actions.

Ayyy bro wants some peaches? We cool right big bro?

I almost completely agree but I don't think Arthur's problem was ignorance. I think he feigned ignorance because he didn't want to accept what he always knew to be true.

based stannis poster

The problem is Dutch was grooming him from such a young age. In the 50's it was common to treat women and blacks like second class citizens because it was largely acceptable to the time they lived in. In Arthur's case living in the Wild West people of upstanding repute were a rarity during his upbringing. I think he's very much a product of the environment he lived in and the people he was influenced by

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you sound like a real hit at parties

switch port lookin good

Arthur may not be religious, but he's not a fedora tipping atheist either. What's there to be afraid about non-existence? He's afraid because he doesn't know what's on the other side, same as any of us.

He always feigned ignorance because he didn't think he was worth redemption or betterment. Mary's a great example of something he knows he wants but doesn't think he really deserves because of his own misgivings.

Also her letter fucks me up every time I think about it, it's like the most knife in the chest feeling in the whole game for me

Redemption doesn't mean you necessarily buy into an afterlife, it can mean something as simple as wanting to leave behind a positive legacy instead of a tarnished one

Damn. Mary Beth looks like THAT?

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My Dear Arthur,
You never showed up, and now, after looking at the newspapers I understand why. I don't imagine you will receive this letter but I nonetheless must send it. Arthur, oh, Arthur. I was just starting to dream the silliest and softest of dreams. I miss you, and I will always miss you but I cannot live like that, and it seems you cannot live any other way.

When I am with you, the world makes sense but when we are apart, I see clearly that your world is not a world from which one can escape. I am so sorry, for everything, for everything long ago and for starting up that business again. There's a good man within you, Arthur but he is wrestling with a giant. And the giant, wins, time and again. You've broken my heart, again, and I fear I have broken yours.

For that, I will never forgive myself but you must let me go now. I enclose a ring you gave me many years ago, when we were both young, not because I don't like it, but because I care for it far too much and it reminds me too much of you. I hope, one day you will find some people in love who can use this, for it kept me thinking of you all these years, and I hope by returning to you I can finally be free.

Goodbye,
Mary

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>I got a letter
>The name on the envelope said mary

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This. Even in some of the scenes Arthur always questioned Dutch's plans and hesitated to doing bad things.

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>john's proposal

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>got sick from beating a sick man to death
He wouldn't have gotten his fate had it not been for his actions in the most literal sense.

I think the guys right.

I like mustache Arthur

People don't forget. Nothing gets forgiven.