Smash reboot thread!

Since Yea Forums clearly doesn’t like the theory about why the next smash is going to be a reboot, let’s just have a regular discussion instead.

Next smash is a reboot, what do you expect?

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Other urls found in this thread:

nintendolife.com/news/2019/06/sakurai_says_getting_banjo-kazooie_in_smash_bros_ultimate_came_quite_easily
sourcegaming.info/2018/06/28/smash-is-special-part-2-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-558/
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

What's the basis behind this? Personally I'd like a more refined roster. Or some kind of faithful remake of 64.

>Or some kind of faithful remake of 64.
This except update the movesets to give them SOME of the shit from the current games. Like side B and charging Smashes. Nerf Kirby's Up-tilt and D-air a little bit.

The basis behind this is that you can’t tip everyone is here, the only way to improve smash is to downgrade, which in the best case scenario is a decent hard reboot.

There are people however who expect an ultimate port, they clearly know nothing about game development!

I think everyone who wants/expects a reboot assumes that they're going to refine/update movesets.

That’s the main reason I want a reboot. It has fuck all to do with cuts, they’re going to happen next game reboot or not, but I’d prefer a reboot if it fixes up most characters movesets.

I like the idea of a reboot if it adds a new mechanic. Like, say, aerial smash attacks, or an updated special list (back/forward special, or B+A specials)

Yes definitely, there would need to be tweaks to the main gameplay in a reboot.

I'm fairly certain every character not on this list will get cut in the next game, because Sakurai said that they're never doing something like Ultimate again. I don't necessarily like cuts, but you gotta be realistic here.

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poor sales

But Sakurai himself said that they're never doing something like Ultimate again. I highly doubt that more than 60 characters are returning. Hell, I'm assuming only 50 - 55 will return with a couple of newcomers.

I really doubt a Smash Bros reboot is happening any time soon. But if there was, I'm guessing these characters will be your starter ones and you'll collect basically every character in Ultimate including DLC with a more refurbished moveset with some more additional characters like Waluigi, a new IP character, Geno, Dixie Kong but that'll be it. Sakurai will call it "Smash Bros infinite", Smash Bros Infinite will be the definitive version of Smash Bros and he'll retire. Any future entry will basically be remakes for Smash Bros Infinite with minor changes for the next Nintendo consoles.

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Consider the alternative.

>Next Smash game is a port of Ultimate called Super Smash Brothers Champions (Super Smash Brothers 100 in Japan). It has every single bit of content Ultimate has including all DLC and eighteen more characters. Ten new characters, five DLC and three new Echoes, marking the roster to a grand total of one hundred characters

THEN the next game will be a reboot.

A reboot will never happen. The roster size and character matchups you thought were things of dreams are the reason Smash is so huge, when you strip that away a lot of the magic is gone. Literally no one outside of competitivefags and autists want a reboot.

It won't be a reboot but it'll basically be a reworking of much of the cast to make them more unique and/or more in line with how they are in their home series'.

I'm expecting something like this too. There's a lot of stuff they could do that they haven't tried yet. Imagine a Focus Attack-like system where you could automatically cancel out of Smash attacks by using meter, for mind games and shit.

Yeah, I don't see the point of ditching Ultimate.

That would be insane, all those newcomers would certainly make up for all those cut, especially third party.

45 character chads where we at?

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I like the idea of Smash just getting bigger and bigger each time. It's silly but it'd be pretty based nonetheless.

Champions is a port of Ultimate, then after that is Infinite which is a further enhanced version of Champions with even more characters and a remade version of World of Light that's more like a traditional Story Mode with cutscenes and an actual story.

After that is the remake called Super Smash Brothers Retro which is a remake of 64 but with a larger roster with exclusively Nintendo IPs but it can be connected to Infinite to unlock more content on Infinite like stages and characters only found in Retro

let me control it without sakurai trying to do my inputs for me

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More like 35-40 with 3-6 newcomers.

Nah, have sex, this won’t happen!

This image makes mentally ill cutfags seethe

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It probably will happen, even if it isn’t next game.

>Next smash is a reboot, what do you expect?

Not to care what is in it, and also not to buy it.

>Le cutfag thread
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!

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If they reboot the roster then just for the love of god base my boy on his Minish Cap version.

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I will never understand cutfagism. I think it's genuine, unironic, diagnosable autism. Like organizing lists but for the scum of the earth.

Please have sex, you need it because you are not thinking straight.

I don't know why people take "Ridley cannot work in Smash" Masahiro "Villager doesn't fight so he cannot be in Smash" Sakurai at face value literally all the time. He constantly changes his mind and backpedals on fucking everything. Why should I ever trust what he says?

>Banjo

this makes them actually cut themselves like the cutfags they are.

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Fuck off, you're just as mentally ill as they are.

You won’t ever get this roster, it’s too much work.

Ideal

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>Base 64 roster with updated movesets, some extra modes and all that
>main characters of each Nintendo franchise that has been in smash represented(Villager, Marth, Mac, etc)
>Sequel builds off roster of existing franchises in the game already, such as Zelda, Ganondorf(now with an original moveset), Falco(with upgraded animations to feel a lot more different than fox), mainly sidekicks and villains
>sequel adds in new franchises from Nintendo most obscure franchises in an attempt to make people regain interest in them(like Fire emblem did), Isaac from Golden Sun, Sami from Advanced Wars, Chibi Robo from Chibi Robo, etc, some more villains/sidekicks from the already in ones
>sequel now adds a few third party franchises that had a long history with Nintendo consoles
You get the gist of it

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>reboot
faggot

Fuck you he's here to stay wether you like it or not.

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>n64 roster with the least deserving 3rd party rep, please have sex, and suck that pussy/cock hard!

>discord zoomers have finally gone insane over Banjo
damn...

The only 3rd party that's completely safe is Sonic.

they aren't going to reboot it, just do more or less the same with an expanded dlc roster of vets

Why does his hand have teeth?

Cope and seethe. He's here to stay and your salty tears will do nothing to do about it.

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This.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up getting Ultimate 2 in like 15 years or so, with all the characters they've added in Smash 6 and beyond.

The one rule I hope he's consistent on is that they have to be from a video game. Fuck Goku.

>sequel adds in new franchises from Nintendo most obscure franchises in an attempt to make people regain interest in them(like Fire emblem did), Isaac from Golden Sun, Sami from Advanced Wars, Chibi Robo from Chibi Robo, etc, some more villains/sidekicks from the already in ones
I would be 100% okay with this and it'd be a nice change of pace after Smash has really catered to 3rd parties recently.

>snake, sheik (maybe), ice climbers, duck hunt, rob, G&W and banjo aren’t coming back.
>GE-FUCKING-NO
>I-FUCKING_SUCK
Please have sex, this is the exact opposite of ideal.

Meh, would be a lot of work.

Next Smash game will be a port of Ultimate.
First Party newcomers with unique movesets:
Dixie Kong.
Tetra.
Sylux.
Bandana Waddle Dee.
Porky Minch.
New Echo Fighters:
Shadow the Hedgehog.
Black Knight.
Medusa.
Masked Man.
Raichu.
New Third Party character:
Ryu Hayabusa.

He’s going to be cut, he’s dlc cause he’s a one off.

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cutfags are the most mentally ill, cope.

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>Jigglypuff instead of Charizard/Mewtwo/Shillmon
>Captain Falcon
>Ness
If they reboot, the autistic original 8/12 stuff needs to go.
Also
>Banjo instead of Sonic

No, they will reboot at some point!

because he's deformed, as all cutfags are.

>No Simon

Your lack of faith disturbs me.

He’s not here to stay, he’s dlc making him a one of fucking character, enjoy it while you can, cause he’s going to be shit tier and after this, never appear in anything again.

here's your ideal overly limited roster cutfriends!

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Have sex, your roster is a never ever!!!!!!!!!!

Nah Simon will probably be cut! I honestly think most things in ultimate are one offs, castkwva

Have sex!

I'd throw Palutena on there but honestly, that's actually a great downsized roster and a place to start at least. Also for as much as I hate to admit it, there'll be more FE characters than just Marth. I'm betting on Chrom or Lucina, and definitely Robin.

I'd like Dark Samus to come back too, decloned, but that probably won't happen.

How have cutfags not killed themselves yet after fucking CLOUD didn't get cut?

It’s shit actually.

Theoretically if they did a major overhaul of the game mechanics and whatnot then I would expect current characters to look completely different, or have expanded movesets in general.
Perhaps they could add more stuff by giving characters secret abilities and advanced techniques like how ryu / ken have extra inputs and can cancel into certain moves.

>Who? Kong
>Shrektra
>Shadow
>Waddle Dee
>implying anyone will pay 90$ for Ryu Hayabusa when they already have Smash on the same console already

Nah, I could see this more or less being the starting roster for Smash 6, plus some newcomers.

Also Cloud, don't forget about Cloud.

>Cutting Adult Link
how about you cut yourself in the throat next?

Nah Simon will probably be cut! I honestly think most things in ultimate are one offs, castlevania Included!

He would have been if it wasn’t EVERYONE IS HERE!

Replace Jigglypuff and Greninja with Mewtwo/Trainer/Charizard and Lucario.
Maybe replace Ness and Falcon.

Cloud is seriously never happening again, Sakurai said as such.

It won’t be the starting roster, mark my words!

This. I'd go as far as to say he got nerfed in Ult so people would start forgetting him and getting cut leaves as small an impact as possible

>Cloud is seriously never happening again, Sakurai said as such.
Where?

And for as much as I don't care for Cloud's inclusion, he's the Final Fantasy rep. Who the fuck are they going to replace him with? Noctis? Black Mage? Bitch please.

It will be! Mark MY words!

>Maybe replace Ness and Falcon.
This is literally never ever happening. Original 12, bitch.

Also, K. Rool really needs to be there.

Fag, you really think the retro reps and all them third party will return, no? Exactly, mark MY FUCKING words!

No. Sakurai has explained getting Banjo Kazooie in Smash was actually one of the most easiest things to do as he further elaborates in this article:
nintendolife.com/news/2019/06/sakurai_says_getting_banjo-kazooie_in_smash_bros_ultimate_came_quite_easily
And Microsoft arent really as competitive with Nintendo as they were back then, and Phil Spencer looks very keen on making that the status quota moving forward. And if the Banjo Kazooie reveal trailer indicates anything, Banjo Kazooie are here to stay and all what you can do is suck it up.
So if there were to be a Smash 6, Banjo Kazooie returning would be a safe bet.
Also Sm4sh's DLC characters like Ryu, Cloud, Roy, and Bayonetta returned for Smash Ultimate so you're an absolute dumb ass.

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Banjofaggots will learn, sooner or later brother

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The original 12 shit is actually a fan rule, but I agree it wouldn’t be smash without them, even though puff is the shittest Pokemon, it’s been there since the beginning.

If it wasn't for Sonic pushing the release date back Jigglypuff would have been cut back in Brawl, the original 12 isn't that sacred.
Also, they already replaced Link with Young Link in that pic.

I really just wish they could make something like SSE again. I hated that everyone was so against it when it came out. People are less against the idea now but it was also so fucking mindblowing to me. Seeing mario and link team up and then random characters like olimar and captain falcon or samus and pikachu team up was fucking crazy.

I would 100% be down for a roster reboot down to about 40 characters if it meant another sse type mode. that would be insane to me

Firstly

>Also Sm4sh's DLC characters like Ryu, Cloud, Roy, and Bayonetta returned for Smash Ultimate so you're an absolute dumb ass.

THAT IS BECAUSE EVERYONE IS FUCKING HERE!

Now

>And if the Banjo Kazooie reveal trailer indicates anything, Banjo Kazooie are here to stay and all what you can do is suck it up.
So if there were to be a Smash 6, Banjo Kazooie returning would be a safe bet.

Times fucking change, such as Phil no longer been in charge or Microsoft and Nintendo having a quarrel. No third party character is a safe bet (not even sonic) so don’t start feeding me that shit, I’m pretty sure YOU’RE the dumbass here, have sex!

I’m not even a Stevechad, I’m just someone who thinks Banjo is so fucking undeserving, don’t care if he was iconic, that was during an entire different fucking era, he hasn’t exactly stood the test of time, N&B flopped.

I pray to every fucking god that Banjo is cut next game, and him, his stupid breegull bitch and his god damn annoying GUH-HUH are never seen or heard again!

Me too user, me too!

he'd be one off too if banjo was y'know. steve literally depends on Banjo being able to stay in the roster

>calls them stevechads
exactly what a steve nigger would say, stay mad.

Not really, he still could be one of the last two fighters pass characters. But I heavily doubt it, even if Banjo did somehow fucking stay, Steve could still be in.

Honestly, I"d buy a game that was just SSE style. Doesn't even have to be smash. But having so many well known characters cross over in such a logical way was crazy to me and still is. Yeah they didn't talk or have dialogue which would've been nice but you knew what they were doing.

I don't even understand how anyone who really likes nintendo games could even not like the sse. I was only like 13 when it came out and even I knew about the characters and the history each had to be mind blown about it.

Somehow you're ignoring the fact Nintendo and Sakurai managed to gey Cloud in despite the legal mumbo jumbo they had to go through just to get Cloud for Ultimate. Also Smash Bros is highly recognized by the mainstream as a celebration of all things gaming. You may not agree, but its just how it is. So stripping Smash Bros of what it gave its identity in the first place by cutting half the roster wouldn't be a very good look on the Smash Bros brand. Sakurai and Nintendo know this and are aware of the public perception of Smash Bros, if they didn't give a damn then they wouldn't have bothered to bring in every character from Smash ever in the first place for the Switch. Plus the next Smash Bros game will basically be more of the same of Ultimate as how Ultimatete was more of the same for Smash 4 except with more characters and old ones returning.
Also what company wouldn't want their characters represented in Smash as of means to promote the brand for newer audiences? Its probably why Microsoft agreed to Banjo Kazooie in Smash so easily in the first place. I know you're just shitposting to get a raise out of me but I just wanted to point that out.

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Hoes mad

Hoes mad

And THIS...

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You’ve made your point, let’s just see what the future holds.

BASICALLY M.U.G.E.N, HAVE SEX WHILE PLAYING IT, IF YOU WANT THAT KIND OF ROSTER.

So fucking what, the rest of the fighters pass better make up for Trashjo and shitooie

wow it really does work, look at

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>BASICALLY M.U.G.E.N.
>Roster has Dee Bee Kaw on it
holy based

They need to cut all the 3rd parties out. This is a NINTENDO game. Also remove the women. Can’t stand seeing girls in a BROS title

i would main the fuck out of Polybius

I want them to revamp movesets, make them better/more interesting, Sakurai has been scared for years of majorly changing shit, the next game after Ultimate is his chance.

>remove third party
YES IT’S GONE TO FAR NOW, ESPECIALLY IF WE CONSIDER ALL THE FIGHTER PASS TO BE THIRD PARTY, WE DON’T NEED OVER 5 3RD PARTY CHARACTERS.

>Removed girls
First game had a female in it, the game never even was bros and never will be.

YEAH WE NEED ISSAC REX AND DEE

Yes, I totally agree with you, if he isn’t willing to, Nintendo should (even though they won’t) sack him and hire someone else to fix this mess Sakurai made!

No. It’s BROS not super smash ladies

>Link is now based off of the original version
>he starts off with the wooden sword and shield
>you can pick up rings to increase his level
>Link(blue ring): gains white sword, and magic shield, forward air becomes magic rod, back air becomes blue candle, boomerang has longer reach,
>Link(red ring): gains magic sword, forward air has fire effect, back air becomes red candle, gains power bracelet, which allows Link to throw opponents further
>Link's down special occasionally pulls out a piece of meat instead of a bomb
>Link's final smash is Stopwatch Slash, which is a variation of Triforce Slash, if used on a variation of Ganondorf, Link will finish by drawing his bow, and using the Silver Arrow, instead of a final powerful sword thrust.
>If you choose Link in Quick Play Mode, he will be locked into his Blue Ring stage.

if you say cappy mario, i will literally come through your screen and pimp slap you in the nose really fucking hard.

I see a lot of intense debate wether Banjo Kazooie will be in for Smash 6 or not.
To be honest, yes they will return they're here to stay for good
Don't believe me?
Wait until a Smash 6 direct comes up a few years from now when they're causally revealed for Smash Bros as base game characters.
In fact most of you shitposters throwing a tantrum over this will grow out of this edgy phase you're in and just accept the fact Banjo Kazooie are characters that are here to stay for Smash Bros.
You neckbeards can't seriously be keen on keeping this shitposting up for THAT long.
Also what type of dumb ass game developer would even cut a great N64 icon like Banjo Kazooie in the first place? That just wouldn't make sense in the long run when you understand just how long it took to get Banjo Kazooie there and the context of how Smash Bros is accepted by mainstream audiences as a celebration of all things gaming. You may not agree with it, but its just how it is. This is the real world, get out of your safe spaces for once.

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Here's your reboot roster bro (+luminary and banjo)

Now give it 8 newcomers + 6 DLC.

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>getting rid of Falco
Fuck. You.

Please fuck off, the reboot for zoomers is totally happening and this boomer cunt will be wiped from history before you know it, it’s time to say GUH-HUH-BYE to your 20 year old cereal mascot, let him rest in hell, where he belongs.

Don’t believe me, SAKURAI WON’T DIRECT NEXT GAME!

>keeping that many third party.

HAVE SEX, and drop dead afterwards.

>wanting more Bing Bing Wahoo

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I would only buy it if they wisen up and remove Gatornigger from the roster.

Nostaliga faggots should KYS asap. No one gives two shits or knows about some faggot gator from 1935 when your parents weren't divorced.

Literally should have never got in smash. Bayonetta got in because she was relevant and a recent game release, not some literal who green shit.

>inb4 muh rob muh pacman muh duck hunt
Icon characters of different eras or mascot characters. No one gives two shits about literal who the gator

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This but Keep K rool, it’s. Banjo who’s the cunt in all of this.

Stfu, he’ll be cut, nuff said!

Where the fuck is bandana dee
Why does Sakurai hate his fans

Why the fuck would they reboot Smash? That's probably one of the most stupid predictions I've ever read.

I'd expect more characters. That's probably the most exciting part of smash.

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No 3rd party rep is safe, stop talking bullshit!

Because, they can’t top everyone is here, but they can improve on it, by downgrading the roster but upgrading the movesets and gameplay

Mario is fine, I more mean characters like Young Link/Toon Link, Dr. Mario, Samus, Little Mac, etc.

Banjo is actually relevant, unlike gatorfuck

>implying adding more characters to the already existing ultimate roster isn't improving it more than rebooting it.

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The current roster isn't sustainable whatsoever, imagine how much they're paying in rights alone, SB will eventually lose steam as a franchise and they'll be forced to cut characters to keep the game profitable, rebooting will just allow them to avoid the embarrassment of having to make concessions with their next release.

heres your smash 6 roster

see you in 2026

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if nintendo is smart, smash ultimate should be supported for years. seriously it really is the “ultimate” version of the game with the most playable characters and stages. they need to do yearly season passes for a few years at the least because we aren’t going to get another smash like it

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>downgrade the roster
>remove anime sword wielders
Never mind, I take back my statement from earlier, you've convinced me.

Gatorfuck was basegame and has appeared in more games than trashjo, does that tell you who’s more deserving to be cut.

Your gatorfuck is here to stay but trashjo and shitooie are third party, and no third party character is safe.

>no new pikmin character

It actually is, and it would improve the franchise, sell nowhere near ultimate but quality over quantity I guess.

Never a main character and only was in the games for 5 minutes each

Quality over quantity, niggerfaggot gatorlover, no one likes Gatornigger and Banjo is a better choice.

>ideal
>no new characters
>all cuts
Nice delusion

I think you mean 2024 for super smash bros rebooted for the 25th anniversary, cunt! :)

I'd like to see a remake of Melee with buffs added to everyone below the top 8 and some of the inherit flaws ironed out like wobbling. Wouldn't hurt to add a few more characters either nor does it need to be a major installment with a huge team.

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Only 1 fighters pass, is happening, have sex and burn in Hell.

Thank you, I really appreciate it, I am absolutely glad I was able to knock some common sense into some people!

their loss i guess. could get serious money for it. next game people will complain at less characters

I have no idea what the next game is going to do or be like.
>But it's obvious that -
Only Sakurai and Nintendo know what the next title will be like. Until then, this is just patternfagging.

sourcegaming.info/2018/06/28/smash-is-special-part-2-sakurais-famitsu-column-vol-558/
>However, I think that “Everyone is here!” is something that won’t be repeated. Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely, but I still think this won’t happen again.
>Anything is possible, of course, so I can’t rule anything out entirely
Even he's saying he doesn't know what's coming after Ultimate or in this case, Special.

HE WAS THE VILLAIN YOU BRAINDEAD NINCOMPOOP, OF COURSE HE WAS A MAIN CHARACTER. I mean sure trashjo and shitooie are also main characters, but irreverent ones.

Here’s your new third party, bro

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Nintendo has such a weird habit of not investing further support into their game even when they could make a ton of money off of it. There's so much more they could do than just fighters and mii costumes, and they don't even have to keep Sakurai on the project for eternity, but Nintendo is run by senile nip suits.

Of course people will complain, they did before and are already doing so for Pokemon sword and shield, just you wait til the cuts hit smash again, and this time it’ll be big time cuts incoming.

>How will Smash ever recover without Dark Pit, Falco, lil' Joe Rogan, two extra Links, Lucario, or [INSERTPLAYERNAMEHERE] Awakening version?
New characters are the draw not more characters. If you are not Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Yoshi, Link, Zelda, Ganon, Pikachu, Kirby, Captain Falcon, Ness, Samus, or Lucina, no normalfags will even notice them missing. They already sold us everyone is here, Square won't let it happen again anyways, the licensing fees would be too high, balancing is an issue, relevancy (cut Fox) and correcting old mistakes (Jigglypuff) are tasks that need doing, and the old characters need to be completely reworked (Samus) on top of the games newcomers. My main is near the top of the cutting block and I have no idea how people can delude themselves into thinking roster bloat is sustainable and a good thing.

Ask multiple random people on the street, i will legit give you $100 if more of them know if Banjo is over gatorfuck.

Thank you user, your description is perfect, we need to convince as many people as possible that roster bloating is bad and that a reboot needs to happen!

I can fucking rig it you know, I could just ask people who didn’t grow up with an N64 chances are they’d know who Gatorfuckniggerass is over trashjo and shitooie. So that bets fucking useless!

>gatornigger fanfags need to rig a basic poll for their shit character to seem relevant
lol

>cut Fox
Yeah, no

>Shulk
>Essential

an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object

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>pit and shulk as essential over G&W and Metaknight
cmon son

I was just assuming something I could have done, chances are if I were to do this I wouldn’t actually rig it.

>OH HEY they're doing something a bit different OMG REBOOOOT!

Their right though, xenoblade has struck up in popularity, doubt they’d cut Shulk.

What's with this retarded trend in vidya circles that everything has to be rebooted for no reason?

G&W is retro and irrelevant in a reboot, Dedede and meta knight will probably stay though.

This would be my reaction! REBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT HECK YES PORT FAGGOTS BTFO!!!!!!!!!! I TOLD Y’ALL

For people to not make shitty threads. But I doubt a video game can do that on the contrary.

Resetera and cringe.

It’s not retarded, when something gets so good that there is legitimately no way to top it, the best thing to do is to improve it by starting fresh, by having a reboot. Obviously everyone is here’s is the best smash can get, there isn’t a way to top it, they can only improve they can only start fresh, the best thing to do is...reboot.

TIL cutting characters from a crossover game series means a reboot.

HE IS THE GAME DUDE
HE IS SO RUDE
HE IS THE GAMER WITH A BAD ATTITUDE

this is masuda thinking, dont be like this user, he is delusional and thinks removing characters will make more content somehow.

>masuda thinking
Wrong, it's Pokemon Company thinking. They are the Disney corporation of vidya and Game Freak is only but their unwilling pawn
But that's a different plate of cookies for a different glass of milk

Next smash has to be a reboot. Roster cut in half or more. I’m actually excited by this because I hope they’d take the opportunity to really shake things up and give old characters new moves.
Samus really needs new shit

>Dark Samus will be made into a Samus skin
Already is. Lots of recycled animations and lots of those moments where DS defaults back into Samus poses. Character got absolutely shafted. Not even different audio

>Yea Forums not getting more retarded

the remaining Stevefags have become so desperate they think rebooting the franchise and cutting half the roster is the only way to get their character in. they're truly delusional and evil.

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Since Young Link will inevitably be cut in the next game I hope they update Link and Zelda’s costumes and give them the Hero treatment

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if shulk and megaman are considered "essentials", then villager and pacman should be there too