Why is Tim Cain trying to kill rpgs?

when you only put 1 point into intelligence

>Good
>Good
>Yucky

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I get what he's saying. As in, what's the difference between 9 INT and 8 INT in the first place? Would make more of an impact if it was squished into a 5 level system. Excellent, Good, Okay, Meh, Trash.

But this only works if the game has a real focus on roleplaying. Using PoE in his example is bad. That is a combat focused, numbers autism game. It doesn't work there because there's no rpg skill checks.

you can be great at one thing and ok at two or good at two and bad at one

can you fucking imagine if this is what games became? i don't want to live in that timeline

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The AIDS must be affecting his thinking capabilities.

>never
That's not true but the wide market ones are all various degrees of autopilot.
Stuff like the original phantasy star is pretty much a straight ripoff of western dungeon crawlers at the time.

I think its that for a stat subset, you can either have:
- a normal triangle, in which 1 stat will be good, and 2 will be average OR
- An inverted triangle, in which 2 stats will be better, but the tradeoff is one will be shit.

Not really sure what the point is

But okay and good is a terrible indicator.

I agree, I think number crunching in games is retarded, I think big stat sheets are a relic of bad P&P systems (rollplay always was for low IQ troglodytes) and early videogames where computational power was extremely limited, and having retarded shit like RNG rolls on skills is fucking awful.

However I am sure he doesn't share my idea that it should all be replaced with pure player skill and preparation reliant systems, because that would make it much harder than just "I have 60 lockpicking skill and 80 sneak so I can waltz into the bank and open the vault" and God forbid the braindead retards of their "widest possible audience" are met with a difficult challenge.

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Why do they talk like this? What the fuck is wrong with these walking tampons?

This is gayer than when he married a man.

SHAPES GOOD
NUMBERS YUCKY

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poe skill tree is terrible, but only because it's so bloated with "+.004% damage" and health nodes. it looks way more impressive than it actually is and could easily be condensed a lot without losing any depth

They only seem to have no difference from a vacuum. If a game's roleplaying is deep and intricate enough, having double digit intervals can give a greater degree of roleplaying nuance than a game with retard proof "DOUBLE MINUS GOOD ATTACK/MINUS GOOD ATTACK/ GOOD ATTACK" rpg system.

I guess that's okay. It would be cool if he phrased it as "we'll have six classes" instead of this h

>what's the difference between 9 INT and 8 INT in the first place?
1 INT

You are 100% right and only people that have never played poe would disagree

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This is literally their end goal. Push button, receive dopamine, thinking is problematic and is for Nazis.

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>But this only works if the game has a real focus on roleplaying.
That would be terrible for roleplaying.

This, when I played it I only bothered allocating my skills when I had enough levels to reach a major node.

POE's character tree is fucking KINO. Every game should strive to be more like it

don't @ me

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Another guy that doesn't get that the autists that play RPGs including my self get off to large complex stats systems. Normies don't play RPGs and never will.

underrated post

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>PoE
Yeah, that one was maybe too complicated for its own good.
>Fallout
Oh, come on, I know it was a lot of numbers but that's what made it de-
>it's Fallout 4
Fuck off.

So you can be specialized in one thing, and average in the rest, or slightly compitant in 2 things but terrible at the other? How is that balanced?

No it's fucking awful, loads of shitty "+1.2% fire damage" modifiers that suck ass. Only retards with addictive personality disorders and minmaxing Asians like that shit.

Underrated

The current skill tree has been streamlined but they still have a ways to go. There is still too much minor stats nodes and medium nodes that you need to get to get to a major node, and there aren't enough of them.

>susan you know i'm allergic! every year we do this! i'm done with you, susan! i want a divorce.

this is the effects of mass appeal
you make something as simple and easy as possible while still being mildly entertaining, now the entry level is far lower and more people will buy your shitty game

Thats why niche hobbies are more fun, people and producers assume youre dedicated and dont need everything pre chewed and dumbed down

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I don't think fallout Special is too complicated but it is deeply flawed. Intelligence and Agility were broken in classic fallouts and still were in 3 and NV.

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youtube.com/watch?v=MEewLWDpscA

nice meme user

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That Q-Bert one would still be easy to fuck up at least.

The whole point of seminars like these is to thinktank on how to butcher genres popular with hobbyists and repackage them in an appetizing way for turbo normies while still stringing along the original autismo fanbase.

I.E. the Disney Star War strategy.

Indeed, who needs a leveling system in a role-playing game.

what amazes me is that he missed the preexisting triangle system for attributes which appears all over the place, and which makes intuitive sense. you place a point within the triangle, which can be close to one point but therefore further from the others, or in the middle, where it's not near or far from any. instead he made a hard to understand system where the triangle rotates or something to change your stats

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Shapes?
Playing with shapes is literally what babies do.
If I wanted to play literal baby games I wouldn't be playing an RPG

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I find it fun for your first character but it's just annoying later. I dread theory crafting builds for new characters or when they revamp the tree and refund all your points, it's the worst.

Maining Sandy Clay Loam all day erry day

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ohnononononono

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replace AGI with Luck in NV

rolling for sand

The difference is that plenty of actions COULD theoretically raise or lower your stats. There could be many ways to gain stats instead of just leveling up, gear is the number one example.
If you have no numbers you have no progression. Everyone knows progression-less games feel shallower.

not even any Fallout system but fucking Fallout 4
literal brainlets can build a good character in that game

fag can't even triforce

Uhh well nuFallout is definitely bad but its more an aesthetic revulsion to me, and my game experiences seem to be more bug filled than most.

I'm not terribly deep into POE but can't you eventually learn everything?

silty clay master race

sandfaggots need not apply

>SPECIAL
>too complicated

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post the presentation video

>PoE
>overcomplicated
That tree is just passive shit. There are a lot of nodes but that doesn't make the tree "complicated". Does this retard expect me to buy his shitty Epic Store exclusive?

> Everyone knows progression-less games feel shallower
Only if the core mechanics offer nothing in itself. There are entire action games and shooters in which you are as powerful at the beginning as you are at the end of the game and they are some of the deepest games ever made.

games need more cool class names

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>yucky

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>everything is needless bloat between major nodes and key stones
>nobody gives a shit about any of it except for getting the few More multipliers that every build uses
nah it's shit

BUT HE MADE SPECIAL. WHAT THE HELL.

>very addictive
This is some big brother tobacco shit man.

>very hard to extinguish
HAHAHA, THEY'LL NEVER BE FREE OF OUR ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCE! NOBODY EVER THOUGHT OF ABUSING ADDICTION TO BE RICH! WE'RE NOT EVIL, JUST SMART! XD

clay is slow and stupid
sand flows like water and hard as earth
put water in sand you get deadly quicksand
put water in clay in you get muddy faggotpaste
sand can blast clay into mist with a billion tiny grains
stay mad clayfags

I really want the game not to suck cause its right my alley of games from what we have seen and also i like light hearted sci-fi.

On the other hand i would like for these fucking hacks to starve

>>>>yucky
I'm at a loss for words. I can't believe an actual adult would not only write that, but also present it in front of other adults.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm having a hard time coming up with an example of what you're describing. I can't think of a shooter that doesn't give you access to more and more guns as the game progresses

>Reboot Develop 2017
>2017
Try harder next time.

>Everyone knows progression-less games feel shallower.

There is one game on my top 25 games list that has "progression" (Resident Evil 4 - weapon upgrades) and that's a stretch.

RPG shit is for grandpas and autists.

No he didn't. He ripped off GURPS. He never created an original system.

Right sure, from the perspective of an RPG I don't disagree. And even pure input action games have a progression of abilities or tools.

RPG mechanics are shit and make games worse. Witcher 3 would have been better without levels and equipment and stats. Level ups should just be for unlocking abilities no linked to damage and health.

how about do this instead because it's universally used and a much better system and visual indicator of stat levels

fucking morons

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>can't you eventually learn everything?
No, but you can go anywhere on the grid provided you can reach it, no level/class restrictions

ro

I mean he's technically right in that 99% of RPGs you either spec into ranged or close combat and everything else is skill/dialogue checks.
PoE's skill tree is impressive, but if you removed all the upgrades that don't benefit your character in any way then it becomes MUCH more manageable. PoE's problem is that if you make one wrong turn on the tree you're pretty much fucked and have to restart from scratch.

Oh I get what he's trying to say. Instead of presenting stats as numbers, it shows radar chart instead?

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Path of Exile is a shit example of a shit RPG tree. The tree itself is kidna shit, but the game is as far from RPG as you can get while still technically being an RPG.
The tree accomplishes what it sets out to do.

Looks like FFX's skill tree but more complicated

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It doesn't matter because now we're having an actual thread on RPG systems and role play mechanics. This is why shitposters see the forest rather than the tree.

Why is keith such a bro?

I'm fine with people trying new things but why does he have to shit on things people like to do it? People love gaining stat points who cares, make your own thing, who cares

The problem is that this still boils down to numbers in the game's code. And people are going to look into those numbers to find out what they are. Hiding stats arbitrarily doesn't benefit anyone.

>Do a triangle instead of numbers
>What makes one stat better than another in the triangle?
>Numbers of course!

>this still boils down to numbers in the game's code
No shit

yeah, unless the graph provides a genuinely useful way to view the stats there's no reason to even have it.

I would be interested in a game where stats could be displayed in a meaningful way on a graph somehow, like having them somehow fundamentally connected to each other with more space between each other being a less powerful connection.

Lol I have heard so many business people say yucky. Get a real job.

Will I cast spells, stab things or hit them with brute force, I wonder...

So I see this image all the time and I'm going to ask a dumb quesion:

Is that Andy Dick or a real person

It basically is the sphere grid, with a ton of +0.04% to random shit nodes you try to avoid.

this is just numbers but for babbys

>Great - 4
>Good - 3
>OK - 2
>Yucky - 1
>Left: 8, Right: 7
I don't FUCKING get it. This is just basic point distribution, any more "simplifying" and you're just making it more vague.

This just doesn't matter. The stat with the highest number is "great" and the stat with the lowest number is "shit". Changing it to words just reduces the resolution to which the player is aware of this. I'd play with either in a game and not thing twice about it.

>Dark Knight

Very nice, thank you RNGesus

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its a sionist plan to later make each attribute or triangle spin obtainable through lootboxes

Meanwhile at Bethesda meeting room, that's what they needed to simplify RPG in TES VI even more, just flip the reload button to become mage from knight wohoo

Ah, there's the problem, he is Satan.

>I mean, how would you even make a skill three so complex in a mobile game to begin with?

The small nodes add together and give you a stat system perfectly tuned to your character's playstyle. It's literally the end result of what Tim Cain is talking about with the triangle gradient system actualized for non-brainlets. Any character can hit any node in the game if they want to.

He's literally designing to brainlets with addiction issues. Every last one of these faggots need to be lined up against a wall and shot.

clicker games are the proof they can get away with this, the autistic geographic is way too populated

give me something that fights like a pussy

Western Devs largely do not understand what RPG players want, nor do they care.

see Destiny, all the talent you can imagine yet they can't make a RPG, and as time has gone on into Destiny 2, its even less so.

90% of all the armors in that game are so pointless its amazing, "you reload faster" great, thanks, Im glad that dropped.

its so streamlined that destiny 2 has really just one stat, "light level".

perfect

>As in, what's the difference between 9 INT and 8 INT in the first place?

Just check the manual it usually tells you everything you need to know. While the example with Yucky to Great is retarded. How bad is Yucky? Will taking it be a huge malus for me or just a small one. Is getting from Yucky to OK a bigger difference than going from OK to great?

Why would we want to make RPG's simpler and not more complex? Why not focus on creating a natural gradient from simple to complex as the player progresses through the game?
In every rpg you level up and get new skills and assign points etc. What if instead you could choose how far to level up (to whatever your current max is) and each level you would gain some skills and lose some others but overall the more you leveled the more complex it would become and the harder it would be to make a viable character build. Imagine making a fire mage so powerful that he kills himself with his own spells if you do it wrong.

most game directors, producers and lead designers in big companies are just business men that just want to make a quick buck, they obviously don't know what players want

This Its less complicated but also misses a point of possibilities and "realism".
Its like jokes on minecraft how to cut a tree for wood.
Or its like reducing the marathon to 100 meters.

they actually look more like Yea Forums posters, which would explain everything

throw a dart at the bottom row

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>fucking awful
>millions of players *at one time
Why not just let different games be different? If either one of you got their way that would alienate a huge chunk of people and they would just have to play old games (nothing wrong with that I suppose)

>They later make it up with a big knotting session

real person that works on nasa I think

And look how that is working for them

>stamina
>endurance
Why not make a bunch more stats and call them things like resilience, toughness, and constitution

Rollin for true warrior

well shit I've been fooled this whole time

>+.004% damage nodes
They're normal weight if you take them first.

hiding numbers doesn't mean your not using numbers your are just obfuscating important information from your player accomplishes nothing more than time waste for them to data mine it. don't like stats ? don't use them.

>warlocks
>pussy

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Cleric... great...

Sand can trickle, sand can abrase.
Be sand my friend.

He's a little special himself

Lol

D&D warlocks are not the same as say WoW locks...

I hate bards, let's see what I get.

Samurai plz

>so what did we gain?
>proceeds to list all the things lost

Jesus fucking christ, its too perfect.Pottery.

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If your class would be perfectly fine with its health being set at 1hp, it fights like a bitch

they could have made that graphic a lot easier to understand

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>Fallout
>Complicated

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Gimme something rogueish

So what's this guys email? I want to send triangles to him daily.

His are just numbers too, but in a triangle shape and absolutely retarded to look at

>Take life/ES nodes near your start and on the way to what you want
>Take nodes of damage type you use
>In some cases take some keystone
You didn't played PoE, right? It has a lot of interesting mechanics to offer, its crafting or gem setups for example, but passive tree is not one of those.

Exactly. Minmaxing Numbers isn’t roelplaying, but sadly a bunch of people think that way now. There’s a reason that a proper dungeon master doesn’t tell you “the monster has 5/20 hp left” they say “it looks badly hurt”

We should get away from numbers ESPECIALLY now that we have computers to do all the work for us

But PoE is bad character building design, not that his stupid triangles are any better.

beastmaster, summoner or necromancer please

>Basing your system on actual dirt

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He's the lead designer for Outer Worlds, so you can send your triangles to nu-Obsidian

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That is a baby compared to this.

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>Wait you don't want a divorce
>You're trying to kill me!
>I'm glad I slept with your sister!

Because normalfags want that dog treat that comes in form of RPG stat upgrades but at the same time hate having to actually manage those menus and actually plan their stats, because that take effort.
Same reason why AAA games like to go for that cinematic "wow you're fucking awesome, look at how your character is going!" feel while most of the time you're pressing a very shallow combination of buttons.

it only works really well when you are actively working with other people to have a good time AKA not metagaming, roleplaying out your actions. Computer games have lightyears to go before they are that immersive, and for anything competitively multiplayer more info is better to a point. Like why can't overwatch just show the damage numbers on the F1 screen? or have a scoreboard? just dumbing it down for no reason, a game like overwatch is never going to be some immersive experience like a tabletop rpg. For other games aka rpgs this would be nice but still the guy in OP is retardedly going about it

I agree. What he should say that the progression steps you see and feel are too many in between.
Dont make 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 but 1-2.5-5-7.5-10. That would even make the progression steps more feel able and significant.

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ROLLAN ROLLAN ROLLAN

Why not just put a point somewhere inside the triangle to show your stat allocation? Keep it vague so people aren't intimidated by scary numbers but allow yourself to either be jack of all trades or specialized in one or two while still having more freedom.

Always loved this chart

What's a good fantasy game to play? No weebshit

I c

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Rollin'

Such a fucking stupid way of playing. When your health hits 0 you die. When their health hits 0, they die.

You have spells that are balanced for certain classes. You can't cast more than a set number of spells. You can't attack more than a certain amount of times per turn. Nothing is gained by being creative or playing creatively. Playing sub-optimally is turning yourself into dead weight for your team.

Ignoring the system doesn't make it go away.

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This just makes it more vague and nebulous. Its like they designed the system to perform a digital shoulder shrug.

ROLLing not spamming

Paladin, nice.

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he made a shit character and had to restart, so he got so mad he became an avenger willing to destroy videogames he is too dumb to play

>Complex bad!
>Why is everybody getting dumber?

The first world's obsession with mediocrity will be it's downfall

what a bastard

All rounder chads where are you at?

Here I go

I wouldn't mind to see advancement be more like "You are a master at X" or "You are a novice at x", but in the end they are just numbers as well. If you want advancement to be like similar to oblivion excluding the level scaling system and some other bad aspects about it I guess that's understandable

>we have computers to do all the work for us
Wouldn't that just mean we'd know there are stats, but we just won't know the exact numbers, leaving us to do a vague work of it?

>he uses the word "yucky" in a formal presentation
>he uses it AT ALL
how about formally presenting your face to concrete several times you stupid bint

t. 4e endorser

You just need two stats. Tits, and ass.

>Not becoming winded
>Resisting damage
Do you not know what a glass jaw is?

In the wisest words of /tg/:

Have you tried not playing D&D?

Rawhide

>Why would we want to make RPG's simpler and not more complex?

At a certain point, it can be too complex and detract from the flow of the game. Don't worry about that happening any time soon though.

>no numbers
Bethesda is way ahead of you. I remember getting some kind of weapon in Skyrim that just had "does extra fire damage" in the descriptor. I almost through my computer out the window.

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10 INT post

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I could understand him thinking that PoE skill tree is complicated(it's really not once you get the hang of it), but SPECIAL? And in Fallout 3?

>Luck has a crossed out
What the fuck? Luck is the most underrated stat.

This system is deliberately vague because they want to mask that all characters are effectively the same regardless of stats.

can i get uhhh spellsword

what the fuck would a herald be

Thats factual wrong.
Because we live in a complex world, have complex equipment and are more linked/reachable with social media the dumb is more visible now.
Take a chimpanzee give him a animal test, he looks very inteligent. Give him a model kit, suddenly he looks dumb.

Come on Monk

Damn, this is nice, saved.

Silver Surfer

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...

how new are you?

For D&D, very.

This actually reminds me of why Crysis 2 and 3 were such fucking garbage compared to 1.

In Crysis 1
>Default state is armor great, agility and strength OK
>Special agility great, armor shit, and strength OK
>Special strength great, armor shit, and agility OK

In Crysis 2 and 3
>Default state is agility good, strength good, armor shit
>Special state is armor great, agility and strength shit

In Crysis 1 you had a balanced set of skills and then ways to specialize in an imbalanced way, but this was genius. It let one skill, armor, be passive while the others are far more risky to use with a higher reward. In Crysis 2 and 3, the passive skill is boring and imbalanced, and the only special state in relation to the three main skills just inverts it to be even more unpleasant. I think this demonstration shows that triangle 1 is a good way to balance characters, but can be changed if skillful play and experimentation are at hand. Triangle 2 is shit and always will be.

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that doesn't explain how it's bad. those modifiers are there to connect the more important nodes and how you do that defines your character. you will die sooner or later anyway so you keep optimizing with every new character

A Warlord that dips a bit into Magic, but only enough to moderately enhance your ability to be a Warlord. Like various low level mind control/charm spells.

Never played 4e, but judging by your disdain it might be fun

I've only played 5e and all of my DMs are such rule thumpers. Anything creative I think of immediately gets distilled to a "balanced" ruling which means it's gimped. The only way to have fun is to think of a creative way to break the game with its own rules so I can point to a line in the rulebook and tell the DM to choke on his own dick when he tries to ruin it.

Please tell me that you don’t try to force your homebrew classes on the DM

Yea they think hiding the stats behind shapes will solve for their game feeling hollow and shitty.

They think people won't notice when their game designs depth devolves into pic related.

Fucking obsidian. Is anyone going to listen to these losers after they released two flops aka pillars of eternity. It's good marketing I guess to horse ride off old games and ignore the reality.

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Interesting post

A herald is one who brings news from his God. The news can be of a prophecy, an upcoming calamity, an order or a warning. Work with your DM what the news can be. Heralds are blessed by their connection to the Divine and can bring forth small miracles and, on occasion, angels of their God to fight for them.

Class Bonuses:
- Divine Authority: Once per day, you may issue a simple command to a creature of a lower level than you. The creature will carry out that order for the next 15 minutes or until it is complete.
- Godly Guardian: Your God has sent a guardian to protect you. You do not know the nature of this guardian, but you sense it is always watching over and protecting you.

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I think Tim Cain's issue is that because he came to design from a programmer's role, he spends a lot of time thinking over and second-guessing abstract stat systems, while not spending enough time on the importance of world design, which is especially important for RPGs.

Rolling for Loam build.

>change the stat system to use this function
>in return, most upgrades are modifiers to abilities that give them extra functionality or further reward optimal use
I'd be down.
Stat points are pretty boring to micromanage, but it still feels good to pump the shit out of one or balance them a certain way on a general scale, so the pyramid thing could work.
Maybe make gear affect the triangle, like boosting low stats or allowing you go full Chad or glass cannon and stretch the difference in an upside up pyramid even further.

Divinity OS 2

It's also late stage capitalism running out of people to sell products to but still needing infinite growth year after year, so they keep dumbing everything down so that every year a new batch of people 3 IQ points lower will spend money on their shit.

No, and that's sort of my point. The lack of flexability and emphisis rule-thumping is absurd in a fucking imaginary system where anything is possible. And don't even get me started on fucking adventurer's league with their 2 book rule.

It gets to the point where the only way to have an interesting character is to go variant human and pick a defining feat because nothing is distinguishing or powerful about any of the races.

Of course don't let in the edgelords with their power fantasy OC, but for god's sake where's the fun in playing a bow user that does nothing but say "I shoot yet another arrow" and brainlessly roll dice. You might as well be playing an NPC

Rollin' (NOT SPAM).

>three of the stats are expressed as nouns
>two are expressed as adjectives
WHY.

PoE
Divinity
baldur's gat (Didn't play yet)

>will solve for their game feeling hollow and shitty.

They literally don't give a shit about whether their game feels hollow or not. All they want is massive social media engagement on the first week of release so their game's initial sales are as high as possible. After nine days or so they couldn't care less if active users craters to zero, they already have the money.

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>people saying the poe tree is bloated
the high iq part of the tree is the optimization, like the rest of the game

fucking christ this board is filled to the brim with gutter filth

Why is he shitting on his own series now?
But that looks like Final Fantasy X's grid system there on the left, fairly straight forward, Fallout is also very straightforward, you know exactly what every stat and skill is for so you can build a character easily and clearly and most importantly uniquely.
Is he working on some phone game? Did some AAA studio hire him?
There has to be a reason why he suddenly thinks appealing to retards is the way to go.

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Yeah, i dont understand these infinite growing numbers.
This only implies that you dont have competitors and sell something that is universall needed by every person every year.

What is it with people and actively trying to make their products worse? Going turbo autist over a skill tree and character builds in RPGs are half the fun.

also rolling for

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>expecting gay people to make good decisions

Diplomat? That sounds boring as shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Also, is Path Of Exile any good? This thread made me start downloading it.

thanks. I fucking love Crysis

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>Highwayman
Im gonna jack your boots while you sleep in the carriage paladipshit

You just have a shit DM. There are so many spells that do things that aren't just numerical advantage/damage that it's mind boggling how they couldn't allow things like using a silent image in the form of a nude orc woman to lure orc soldiers from an encampment one by one until finally a spellcaster sees through the trick only to have the entire garrison charge out at your party while changing the silent image to be a hermaphroditic slutty parody of Gru'umsh, orcish god of war to enrage and confuse them all.

>Elder Scrolls 6.jpg

>battlepriest is closer to mage than battlemage is

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But skyrim tells you exactly how much damage enchants do. I agree with you, bethesduh is a band of dipshit retards, but no need to lie about it

Unironically skyrim

it's not a great chart.

kill yourself

If you like taking one mechanic and turning it up to 11 by optimizing every aspect of it until it's broken and then using it indefinitely, PoE is the game for you.

If you like playing around multiple skills and cooldowns, or adapting to your environment it's not the game for you.

For your first character, I recommend picking someone who looks cool and following a "starter" guide someone else wrote. Watch this video and pick a clip you would like to experience for a few hours. Then go into the forums and follow a guide step by step youtube.com/watch?v=5_ByvfCaphg

Do you mean "does extra damage to enemies on fire"?

Because he sucks at RPG's and doesn't understand how to build a character. You gotta be fucked in the head to not be able to build a character using the SPECIAL system or any system in general.

Well if you watch the presentation that someone linked in this thread, it basically comes down to
>TOO MANY BUTTONS
>TOO MANY NUMBERS
>TOO OVERWHELMING
Basically, he's teaching the seminar from the perspective of winning over a turbo casual, browsing through an APP store or Steam sale, and catches sight of a bad ass male holding an Assault Rifle 15, thinks that the graphics and premise are cool, and expects the game to massage their shaft upon pressing start. From that perspective, all rpgs from before 2010 are basically a failure, as they do not start with some sort of prisoner escape or epic cinematic hook that lets the player know that this game is indeed awesome and not some gay nerd shit.

Fighter/Mage are concepts. Battlepriests in most settings use more spell-like abilities than battlemages do.

Looks like all the accountants are outraged someone is shitting on spreadsheet char creation.

That was never good design. It was just the first one you were introduced to and didn't know any better.

lets go bois

Wtf is this guy thinking? Why most game developers shit on the intelligence of their audience?

I won't go so far as to say that it's "never good design" but I will kind of agree with you and say that it isn't necessarily the only good design

when it comes to down to it, "accounting" (as you say) can be pretty fun

So the only way to enjoy the game is to play with spreadsheets so that your tree gets optimal everything? Fuck it, I'd rather just go back to playing Drug Lord 2, which at least has better gameplay and a more engaging story.

I wish I knew how to play Unlimited SaGa.

Holy fuck I tried to use minor illusion once in combat to create a copy of myself to confuse a low INT creature and it fucking ignored the image and smacked me. I tried to make a wall so it wouldn't see me and would have to go around and it went through the wall and smacked me. I tried to make a bonfire to scare it off and it ignored the bonfire and smacked me. I tried to make the sound of the predator to scare it off, and it heard the sound and smacked me anyway.

So I hid behind my pally and cast magic misssle the rest of the fight like a good boy. Fun game.

In theory if you’re playing a bow user you rolled Ranger and get access to all of that stuff too, but since 5E fucked Ranger completely and we now know WotC will never fix it ever you’re stuck with Fighter.

no Skyrim on launch had that issue. I think they fixed it in a quick patch, let me find proof for you

At least in the context of the OP, it makes sense since it's an FPS than whatever game using RPG elements. Crysis's sequels got far too streamlined and overemphasized on having two modes.

Apparently the low-INT creature wasn't dumb enough to be fooled by such weak illusions. Also, if you're a wizard, what in the Nine Hells are you doing standing right in front of the enemy? I hope you at least have Shield or Mage Armor if you're going to play full retard.

its a gradual process of continuous upgrades, there really is no perfect because the devs have made it that way

Gimme 03, come on, 03.

Adventurer please

>rpg to hard
>strip rpg of everything that make it rpg
>rpg good

Some fuckin caveman tier shit.

>assuming those spells aren't a fucking requirement on every wizard

The answer to your question is I pissed off a monster the dm didn't want us to fight and my party fucked off and left me there

Come on baby give me pugilist

Definitely shit DM, the first two I could understand if it had truesight or whatever, but the other two should have worked. Are you playing games with these people in person or over Roll20? If in person I'd suggest running them through a game, if Roll20 just drop that noise. Maybe play something more fun like Delta Green.

Can I get uuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

come on berserker

I like stat systems where stats adapt depending on your role, like Intelligence being useful to a STR-based melee character in some way.

>2017
Who gives a shit, it obviously effected nothing.

ok

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My two suggestions are to either find a DM that isn’t no fun allowed or play something more interesting than D&D

DISAPPOINT ME

Are you being serious? Have you seen the current state of Western rpgs?

>effected nothing
Wait until the Outer Worlds comes out before you make that claim

Fucking hell, I just had a flashback

>party is travelling through a cave
>encounter some giant crab-like monster
>manage to talk it down from trying to kill us
>one player decides that Chaotic Neutral means "fuck everyone I'm attacking"
>we all leave him behind for being a massive retard
>he dies and sits out for the rest of the session

I pray you aren't the same person, but I'll never understand players who openly attack shit despite the party not wanting to do more combat. At least he had the courtesy to not bitch about dying for his stupidity.

The problem is that games are rarely complex enough for the stats to actually make a difference. Most of the time they're just checks to see if you unlock a certain option or stop your progress altogether until you meet the requirement. This is a stark contrast to tabletop where stat check failures don't have an absolute result, it's always left up to the DM to tell you what happens. Games don't have that flexibility. Obviously his dumb idea still doesn't fix this, but it's not entirely a bad idea to remove shit that does nothing but artificially hinder your progress. Non-combat stat checks should be replaced with making the player actually pay attention to their environment/conversations, i.e. rather than you convincing someone to do something because your speech is 50 you convince them to do something because you know how to influence them.

Because games, like every other form of mass entertainment are being dumbed down to make the intellectual decline of the first world. When consumers were more savvy, read books and stimulated their minds it made sense to make nuanced entertainment. Now most consumers have no attention span, no reading comprehension. They are shallow and dumb and hard pressed to make any complex choices and thus the bar is lowered. You all have to eat from the same trough made for the growing number of retards the world over.

He's right. Both systems you can gimp and make the game unplayable via levelling.

onions

The problem that he mentions is real, however the solution he proposed is stupid but at least is a step in the right direction.

here's an example. I remember seeing shit like this all over the place in november 2011 and it pissed me the fuck off. I also vaguely remember these descriptors being corrected to be more specific in a later patch, but I cannot find anything like that in the patch notes

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whatever it is i'll combine it with barbarian

PoE's character building system is bad. It's needlessly convoluted and 90% of the board is passive skill up bullshit where if you don't follow the meta you end up with an underpowered build that is 100x less effective than what tier list mcshitter has minmaxed out and posted a guide for. Not only that, but every build effectively plays the same way anyway.

here's another example
>small chance
WHAT CHANCE
WHAT FUCKING % CHANCE
WHAT NUMBER

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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This retard is now working on what is perhaps the most Reddit, gay game I've seen in the last few years. Shows the absolute drop in quality between the classic RPGs to normie garbage like Outer Worlds.

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What a weird thing. I don't think a single RPG fan has complained about systems being to complex ever in the history of the medium.

>implying this seminar is about what RPG fans wanted

I refuse to believe this level of stupid, until I get a source.

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very sad to see this guy advocating that complex character progression in an RPG is bad design, it's fine if he doesn't like it but actually calling it bad design is insulting

I'll @ you to the ends of the earth for your terrible tastes.

Your DM is shit.

The worst I've heard is that some systems have a lot of sinkhole skills or that the game itself highly favors certain builds to the point that several skills are useless, but never that the system is too complicated.

Why are the people in charge of video games the same people who know the least about them and want to ruin them? I don't understand it. Is the system not working anymore?

How many brain cells has he lost since he founded and lost Troika?

rollin'

xd?

don't mind if I do

I spent the last 3 hours on my cell phone while the party bickered on and on about some stupid roleplay nonsense that I wasn't a part of. We stumbled on a big dumb overleveled monster on the quest we got afterward that we were supposed to run from but I knew we could take it down and I wanted blood. Combat with this dm was like a fucking oasis in a desert.

I stood and fought, shielded, used lucky, earthen grasped, illusioned, and burned all of my spell slots while its 30 damage multistrikes whiffed multiple times. My allies came back in right before I got knocked out and we finished it off.

I don't understand why people deliberately avoid playing the game and then spend hours talking to NPCs accomplishing nothing

youtube.com/watch?v=MEewLWDpscA&

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SPECIAL in the original Fallouts is actually my favorite system ever. Each skill has a very clear and distinct use depending on how you want to play the game. Except for Luck possibly there's no real dump-stat and each one of them greatly affect what you'll be able to do. Importantly for this to work the game itself needs to support and have paths for all of those styles of play, which they definitely succeeded in doing.

im a wizard

rollie pollie ollie

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Outer worlds is going to be shit
rollin'

Gimmie something cool

Roll it up and shove it in

non-fag job please

Not proper dump stats, but there's little reason to pump PER or END to the cap, STR in a lesser way since power armor boosts it, but normally it takes a while to acquire.
I've never played a run where I had more than 6 end or 8 PER

I'll take my chances

jkdasjd

Why not just make 6 character classes with linear development path?

Games like this would be so babby mode minmaxing would be so god damned pointless.

This dude is also in charge of these retards. If you had even the faintest hope that Outer Worlds was going to be good or even 'decent', give up now.

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There are a lot of reasons this could happen that aren't just the DM is shit... like if the monster had any form of supernatural senses then all of those visual illusions would be useless. Like, tremor-sense, heat sense, or echolocation alone would negate all of those illusions.

This was it. There were 4 of us and we were around level 5-6

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youtu.be/pnSJLnODRsE?t=7

9/10 agi is a must in the original Fallout games. More often than not it makes you attack two times in a turn, even with aimed attacks. Way too good pass up. The rest of the stats are more properly balanced.

I was unironically still hyped for Outer Worlds until I saw this thread

Rolling for Magic Knght.

What was the party composition? I will agree with you that 4 near-level 6s should be able to take them on, but I've seen my share of retarded parties (2 barbarians, a sorcerer and a rogue was quite the shitshow).

I love crunching numbers.
Its legit fun. But the game should not hide formulas. Its gay when its just guesswork, especially if the game doesnt allow you to redo builds.

YASSSSS QUEEEEN

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Why does it need to be a hexagon if the opposing points don't subtract from eachother? And if they do why would Strength and Endurance be on opposite ends?

>carrie patel
Looks like a lesbian Todd Howard.

>Shit talking PoE’s talent trees
I want him to hurt in the feelings, the body, AND the wallet.

The whole point of obscuring numbers in the foreground is to hide the fact that the number crunching has been dumbed down in the background. The whole thing is a psychological trick to make casual players feel smarter than they when the vague information conveyance tells them that they are making good decisions even though the possibilities for making bad ones are harder than ever.

waifu plz

In CRPGs, stats MUST be hidden from the player

I've never met or heard of anyone in the videogame industry who realizes this. The reason why stats are so prominent in real-life RPGs is because SOMEONE has to make the necessary calculations, and without the help of a computer the players are forced to do this boring work themselves. As anyone who has tried the role of gamemaster knows, the calculations get in the way of the actual game, and are therefore to be avoided as much as possible. When computers enter the scene, however, there is absolutely NO REASON why the player should have to see any numbers on the screen. Indeed, in my days as gamemaster back in high school I used to roll all the dice behind a screen: my players would simply tell me the action they wanted their characters to perform and I would respond with the result, without them ever having to calculate anything. This is how CRPGs should work. The reason why they never work like that is purely historical. As mentioned earlier in this essay, CRPG designers initially focused on the stats because it was the easiest part of real RPGs they felt they could simulate. Thus CRPGs started out as strategy games and never really moved on from there, creating, in the process, generations of players with an unhealthy numbers fetishism who miss the point of role-playing entirely. The end result is that decades-old adventure games such as The Secret of Monkey Island have more role-playing elements in them than most anything that gets passed off as a CRPG these days. (Some recent BioWare titles such as Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect do contain elements of role-playing, but the strategy and action components are so completely dominant, that the games end up feeling almost nothing like RPGs.)

ESCALATORS ESCALATORS ESCALATORS!

>eelementalist

I was wild magic sorc, we also had a drunken master monk, and Oath of the Tempest pally, and a moon druid that left us to die

>My legs are okay

Even worse is he used FO4 as the example. The simplest most casualized usage of SPECIAL was still too complicated for him.

nigger

Check this Dragon Knight.

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It's a roleplaying game user. If all you want to do is kill shit but the other players want to roleplay, maybe you're not a good fit for the game.

I like numbers though, I want lots of stats and attributes to think about when I am leveling up or before entering a dungeon. He can make his gay baby games for retards but don't go around trying to tell everyone that complexity is bad.

The fuck are you talking about? Stats are visible to the player because the player is the one choosing selecting the stats. All calculations are already handled by the computer. You can't make stats invisible without removing character creation entirely.

Lookit dat merbutt!

rolllling.

I dont believe that this is the cast in most games.
Especially not for older rpgs where you might see a stat like "luck" with no explanation on what it does. It could increase crits, it could increase item drop rates, it could change the story.
Or you might just see a skill name in a skilltree and a vague description but no actual numbers attached so it might be the best thing ever or awful.

If anything I'd rather think this is done out of incompetence, to hide terribly designed options or to force replayability in a shitty way.

>moon druid that left us to die

Sounds about right, druids tend to be fags. Good on you for actually getting them to help you fight, though. Hopefully they've learned something from the experience besides "The sorc is bloodthirsty."

I'd argue they should make a retard mode where they let you do this shit, but then you know they're just going to completely fuck up the game balance for non-retard mode and either make the game way too easy or too obviously focused on thinking you were using the retard mode

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Rolling.

There's definitely some design gaps for min-maxing and efficient players. But what I like is that the system works well if you don't know the game inside and out, and don't have all the numbers and the entire game mapped out. And you can chalk some of those down to margins. I was not very good at games when I first played them so I usually had to put some extra points into HP-boosting.

Okay isn't the same as good.
Okay is like that girl who has that chub and asks you if she's fat and you don't want to bring her spirits down so you say "You look okay"

Good is the girl who you're attracted to, but not super attractive to have all the guys drooling over her, but you might still lose her if you don't act quickly.

don't give me something gay

is this guy retarded, or does he think everyone not buying rpgs are?

How does this work when there are no dubs on Yea Forums?

holy shit thats awful

Replace numbers with accurate descriptions and the player build their character all the same.

user, everyone not currently buying rpgs is the "target audience"

Roll for guts

Numbers and grinding are not role-playing.

The game is called dungeons and dragons. It should have dungeons in it at the very least. What's the point of making stats and picking spells if you're going to bicker back and forth between characters without making meaningful progress.

I can role-play how I kill things and how I interact with dungeons and questgivers. That group dissolved anyway because the bickerering RPers were flakes.

You sound like a shit GM

no you smoothbrain

the distance from center is what determines the stat. the farther away the point is from the center the higher it is. each stat is independent from one another. Have you seriously never seen a radar chart before?

If you can't trust your GM then why play with them in the first place?

Those are still stats. Giving them awkward names doesn't change anything. The player is still deciding they want to play a guy this strong. Unless your character system is binary, stats will still be a scale and players will need to be able to understand that scale to properly build the character they want. You could come up with a bunch of different phrases for each tier within that scale, or you could do the far easier and far more legible thing and just have them pick a number.

So why not just have numbers?

>Take the circle
>straighten it out
>It's a bar chart again

Man I hope VtM 2 has the same bite and nastiness that VtM 1 had.

I think the good/evil mechanic is a bigger problem. There are hardly ever any real consequences to your actions in most games. For instance, destroying Megaton in Fallout 3 should have hard-locked you out of a lot of missions. I mean, you choose to be a piece of shit (and it should be a viable choice if it's offered) in a game, there shouldn't be any walking it back. That just encourages multiple playthroughs.

Very cool

They're doing away with numbers and trying to push comparison, superlative adjectives instead.
Makes it more descriptive to the user.

SPECIAL is fucking perfect. I wish every RPG including Tabletop just used it. This faggot can eat a bowl of cocks.

Google tells me that pasta is from this guy:
rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/best-thread-ever-no-sjw-related-posts-allowed.57009/page-291
->
lolcow.wiki/wiki/Icycalm

Souls series triggered western cuck

Hhgghbvvg

Think beyond the character creator.

To some degree I can understand and even agree that approaching a brand new RPG system can be overwhelming. But I also think the fact that it's overwhelming is important and draws people in, because if an RPG has systems that seem shallow you don't actually learn them. For example, although not an RPG, Dwarf Fortress has a bunch of complex systems that are totally overwhelming for a brand new player, but a significant amount of the appeal of a game like that comes from the satisfaction of learning and mastering those systems. I just don't think that's a very popular mindset unfortunately.

because numbers don't mean shit without context. Visual representations of numbers let people fully grasp the real scope of things. It's why graphs exist in the first place.

not really true because you can compare multiple subjects with many different variables at once by overlapping more radar charts. you cannot do multivariable with a bar chart as easily if at all

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wooden sword do bad damage
iron sword do good damage
mythril sword do gooder damage
dragonbone sword do goodest damage

Because he's a literal homosexual. AIDS rotted his brain.

Rise, all of you, Larianchads.

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wtf this sux i want to see 9999 EPIC NUMBERS

It's literally identical. What do you do if you want to be stronger after leveling up? You move from buff to brawny? How is that different from moving from one number to the next? How many levels before I reach Herculean? All of this is still just numbers hidden behind flowery descriptives.

A number between 1 and 10 means more than being some arbitrary spot on a graph.

Give me WIZARD

I feel like you’d fail a Voight-Kampff test.

It's a way to allow a person quickly assess the stat distribution without having to use numbers, and since any given distribution of stats will yield a simple shape one can presumebly learn how associate a shape with a specific class(and levels if base stats increase upon level up)

>all of those women
welp I admit it's irredeemable

another that game I wont be looking forward to

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>special too complex

Literally retarded

JRPGs are just as trash you filthy weeb

>because numbers don't mean shit without context
That's why literally every tabletop RPG has average target numbers, to provide that context. Players are given even more numbers than most CRPGs and this doesn't make the game more complicated, but easier to understand.

Graphs also don't mean shit without context.

if anything a programmer would want a fuckhuge amount of numbers and obscure formulas with a nightmare of a ui (not his problem) over a simple toggle

rollin for bard

What the hell is this shit, fallout's system is about as smoothbrain as possible. It is literally just a number between 1 and 10 where being closer to 10 is the best. I genuinely can't comprehend how anybody could not get that.

Not if he's lazy.

Why is this represented with triangles in this way? It doesn't make any sense and is just confusing. Surely there's a better way to convey this

>Replace numbers with accurate descriptions
DESU, there is no way to replace numbers with accurate descriptions.
As that popular saying goes: Math is the universal language. Everyone knows 3

Shouldn't you boys be playing Diablo 3 or something?

Bioware already killed them.
Todd pissed on their corpse.
CDPR dabbed on their graves.

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Who?

highwayman please

Its basically to prevent bullshit like dropping everything else to 1 and then putting everything into one stat and ALSO to prevent people just equally balancing every stat.

Both outcomes are terrible to balance for because the one trick pony can slip through the game easy as pie until "that one part" and they get frustrated while the jack of all trades is fine at the start of the game but later on has an extremely hard time since there is nothing he can leverage to beat the increasing difficulty.

This triangle forces players to have 2 fair stats and one good one they can leverage or one bad star and to above average stats they can leverage. This means that the developers can always reasonable know how powerful someone is and balance the game to it. Keeping it to three stats prevents the one trick pony from breaking the game and still giving him a small change but when that "one part" comes up his other starts are still fair and he can still attempt it and win while the jack of all trades now has a bad stat and forces them to give something up but with two above average stats can still do most of the game which is what most jack of all trades players want. They don't want to feel like they are missing out on any part of the game because they cant do something.

Its an interesting system with its merits but it takes a lot of control away from the player which I disagree with.

It's amazing to me how the one way RPGs truly needed to grow was in the ability of the player to ROLEPLAY according to their tastes and impact the narrative in meaningful ways, and most of them STILL struggle with the former.

rawlin

>food analogies

Yeah pretty much. Everyone goes down the exact same path for health anyway. Skill tree wise none of the builds are really unique.

I mean if you only have 3 stats then this is fine I guess, it's just a simpler way of doing it. I mean I don't really know what the point is, given most players don't mind having a regular number system, but this would still work just fine. That said I wouldn't play an actual RPG with just 3 stats, this feels more like it's for Skyrim style "RPGs"

>dirt analogies

Systems in an RPG are something that aren't assessed broadly, because they're a part in a greater whole so people find specific problems caused by the interaction (or lack thereof) those systems have with design, eg the amount of stats and skills in fallout 3 which were garbage because they were legacy fallout stuff crowbarred into oblivion with guns.

you eat dirt?

I feel called out

Depending on the kind of game it doesn't need to be perfectly balanced, as long as it's possible. Yeah making a very extreme character will result in certain situations where you'll really struggle, but that's part of the fun.

This is really cool

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No. Fuck this.

good/evil is just a glorified faction system.

I just want to thank everyone for engaging in a good conversation about the deeper mechanics of rpg system, and where they do or don't work. It's rare to get threads like this.

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>want to design decent combat system for d20 system in the vein of KOTOR2
>not good at complicated math but don't want it to be d20 with tiny hurdur modifiers
smoothbrain pain

rollin, not a spam you dumb mook

can't you do the same triangle system with numbers? Like, 3,3 and 1 or 2,2, and 4 or whatever it would be. At least I know that 2 is double of 1. I dont know how much better good is than yucky.

This is making it simpler on the surface but only hiding the numbers that are actually there. So is his goal to make it simpler or more complex?

>t. new player
it legit is the most boring fucking thing and every nearly every single specific build archetype will follow the same exact tree pathing with minor variations

Extreme characters and bland safe/ mediocre across the board characters have consequences and the point of an rpg adventure is to represent when these skills succeed or don't succeed, which is what makes unconventional or generic builds an interesting player choice tension. You miss the ultimate point of why a lot of classic rpgs are interesting and that is because it is possible for the player to fail or make poor choices, just as the possibility of dying and losing is interesting in an action game. Tension, trials, and utilizing tools or abilities to overcome those trials is what makes a game interesting, not sanding the corners off of a game so that no one feels left out.

My big concern would be, how are the most similar classes functionally and meaningfully different from each other?

this but more extreme. I fucking hate obsession with balance, as in balancing to make all decisions equally valid, when the game is suppose to be about fucking making good decisions, or living with the consequences of the bad ones

That's not actually true. Usually game designers don't give specifics on attributes. They have a rough idea, but numbers need to be specific and designers aren't mathematicians.

All the calculations are done by programmers and the designer just says to tweak them until it's what they want. Have you seen the calculations in most RPGs? They're insane. Because programmers are just throwing operations onto operations until someone's happy. The more numbers you have, the more of a mess it becomes.

It's all trial and error with very little intelligent design.

ROLLIN asfkljdsakljdasjkljkdlasjkldasjklasjkdjlkas

>Its basically to prevent bullshit like dropping everything else to 1 and then putting everything into one stat and ALSO to prevent people just equally balancing every stat.
I don't like where they're going with this.
From a RL perspective, people aren't built to be like that, most of us are just average 5s across all stats.
It also takes a lot of freedom to build your character like you said.

I like Grim Dawn's Devotion system more than this, honestly. They don't exactly fulfill the same role but there are similarities.

give me something pointy to work with

>red mage
>rapier
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck yeah

Oh hey, other red mage

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everytime

summoner baby come on

Alright Yea Forums you talk big shit but let's hear some of these specialist/roleplay builds you did.
>KOTOR 2
>theme is being a general/military leader
>take Duelist for bonus one-handing a blaster
>take Battle Meditation and powers that buff teammates
>high int and cha to be skillmonkey and leader
>use skillmonkey status to make busted as fuck modded weapons + armor
>go through the game playing a glorified combat support inspiring the fuck out of people
The hard parts were fighting Kreia and, because I sided with the nationalists on Dantooine, Kai-El/Vrook on Dantooine. That faggot fucking Vrook WILL outheal the shit out of you if you're not careful. I have no idea how I got past that. Otherwise very very fun and fit the theme of the Exile perfectly.

rolling spam

I remember rolling a pathfinder of sorts, but now I can't seem to find it. I'm either blind or it's under a different name.

Change the bottom three to DEX, CHA, and WIS.

nationalists on Onderon*

It's too good because the game is focused on combat. If there were less situations where you attack, it would not be as good.

>thinking Fallout is complicated
holy fuck how hard did this guy's parents drop him on the head

this guy, from this picture alone, should NOT BE TOUCHING GAMES EVER.

someone break his fingers, PLEASE

>addictive personality disorders
pls leave me out of this :(

Fallout's SPECIAL has that annoying problem where a single stat point means nothing, you need 2 to make a difference. 7 PER is no better than 6. That's stupid. If that's the case why not cut all the numbers in half? Not that they should, what they should have done was make sure a single point in any stat actually meant something.

what is this casual dirt bullshit
when I design RPGs I base the leveling system off steel

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Assassin because im edgy

This is the only acceptable pyramid in an RPG

ah shit here we go again

fug

Doot

rolland

He looks like a TF2 shitpost loadout irl

This is basically the square grid from FFX with 50 times more autism

Mmm

...

Rollung

When will the gaming industry kick these retards to the curb?

Because it's an industry. They are all about maximizing profits. Streamlining games means it's easier and cheaper to develope them, casualizing them means expanding your target audience, focusing on visuals, actors and marketing means expanding the reach of your product. Games are no longer made by enthusiasts and nerds, they are made by big corporations trying to make money out of it. For every person that you lose by dumbing down the genre you probably gain 10 casuals that pay more on average for those games.

I'm watching the video, this isn't exactly it. He wanted to split physical and mental stats up and have a triangle for each.

they said the sphere grid was a main inspiration.
also the skill tree in pic related is many years old now, the current one is a lot more refined than that (albeit still boring as fuck)

When their designs stop making money and the average gamer begins to prefer games that require at least a little thinking and planning

yay

Let's see Paul Allen's class

but then you couldnt be purely bad at mental and good at physical? Does he hate role playing?

I always thought of two combined fixes; originally meant for adapting Fallout to d20 but possibly as it already is? Haven't thought about it much lately might as well throw it to Yea Forums and see how many times i get called a nigger.
>1. Allow SPECIAL to bottom out at 0 instead of 1.
>2. 5 in any attribute gives a mod of +/-0. 6 gives +1, 4 gives -1; 0 is -5, 10 is +5

gimme

This is why you never let ideas guys have authority.

Technomancer get

>50% Sea
>50% Weed

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I knew it, it was the jews all along

>make a RPG
>numbers are yucky
I can agree that PoE may be overwhelming at first but calling SPECIAL overcomplicated is simply another meta.

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But I want to play as One Shot Jhonny

Have a third triangle for something other than physical and mental, then have an overall triangle that contains those 3 categories

does this mean outer worlds is going to suck? I was hoping to get an RPG with some character progression resembling fallout or arcanum

The problem with PoE is the lack of complexity.
You're forced to collect every HP node if you want a viable build, so most builds will be surprisingly similar.
PoE needs more (meaningful) complexity, not less.

Also, like others said, hiding numbers is peak faggotry.

rolling for 71

Maybe make it a percentage, so you can never get your melee to 100 if you're a 2 Str basedboy.

Dms that don't support/punish creative actions are the worst. There are few things worse than a dm that relentlessly tries to push their own brand of "realism" just to make sure the players don't try anything they didn't think of.

Wouldn't resisting damage be defense in that chart?

so star of david?

I kind of agree with you. People taking D&D and running various shit from lovecraftian detective game to social and political intrigue (and bonus points for making an economy-centric game like running a business) in it instead of picking from a variety of better systems is straight up annoying. D&D is best when you're given a "dungeon" and you have to solve it.

If you don't main 100% clay you're a virgin retard.

rolling for next game i play

Look at it like this: If the world was to end anyway, wouldn't you want to be the one ending it?

rollan1

lets rolan

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...

Yeah, the way you did it makes perfect sense to me. Every point matters, just how it should be. Though I don't think it really makes that an important difference whether you treat 5 as the default and use negative modifiers below it or start from 1 and use only positives.

I just don't get why they did it the way they did. Surely nobody looked at D&D, which has the same problem, and thought 'that's an excellent annoyance, we should make sure we annoy our players the same way.'.

Roll!

>slow walk designed to burn out all but the most addictive personalities coupled with seasons that force you to make an entirely new character to participate in any new content is kino
i like poe for its gameplay and the build aspects that aren't tied to how much you've studied the latest EXP route to actually play the update in a decent amount of time, but not this
level systems were devised to teach you a new mechanic in a comfortable amount of time before giving you the next one, this is just filler

but you die at -10 and there's no balanced edition of dnd

I see nothing wrong with it. Not all games need that type of a stat system but I'd play such a game if it were good. RPG need to be more streamlined not more archaic.

Rollo

Shit this game looks much more fun then the typical FPS shit I see today. What the hell happened to the FPS genre?

rollio

stripping complexity in favor of making it easier on stupid people is in fact not refining the system, the problem is not the numbers it is in fact the ui, OR its big money trying to appeal to people to dumb to play it anyway

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give me duelist, king of 1v1 melee non magic combat

one of the things non rpg players dislike about them is the fact that they have to choose stats, not sure this will fix that at all

This is still the worst image to use when hating on this game. The whole "No _____" list is all positive except mod support and third person, the dead space comparison is as fucking retarded as randy crying about ww2 stealing a brothers in arms cover, rigor mortis outs zoomers who've never seen any other crazy old scientist except rick. I don't even fucking know what the bottom left is supposed to depict, they're somehow copying skyrim when that first person melee stance has been in 800 fucking games honestly this had to have been made by bethesda, if not todd himself

Bard

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Nope.

The late 90s to 2010 was a very experimental time for shooters with companies trying new things to see what would stick. Unfortunately they just took everything good from that era and ran it into the ground. Some things lasted longer then others.

Give me Spellsword or give me death.

provide

>literally 3 numbers away
CLOSE ENOUGH THEY HAVE SWORDS AND SPELLS
TIME TO TIP THE SCALES

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its needlessly ugly and confusing and overcomplicated, if any character can get any stat why is it so spread out and convoluted? remember, it doesn't matter that you like it, it matters that players understand it because they pay your bills

and here i thought FFX had a stupid tree

no, especially if he's lazy. popular programming design philosophy: the more work you do, the less the user has to do. I'm a programmer and I love numbers and bad GUIs. I don't know what his problem is.

>enabling retards

Then why not just fucking make action games instead? The whole appeal of RPG is being able to build to your liking. These nu-RPG are already such stripped down RPG as it is. You never get to see shit like from Fallout 2 in a modern RPG because they are already vastly streamlined for the most part.

what are some rpgs that are actually overcomplicated

Doing it

DILATE

>you will never play an RPG with this many classes

give me something good

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrollling STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAART

lets see

rolling for that good shit

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>Strength: Unga
>Intellect: Bunga
>Agility: Bunga

ok

Give me that good shit

>reee I can't solo an entire encounter with a single spell
Get fucked, retard. You're just upset the GM didn't hand you a fee win.

stop, you're making me want to post bestiality gifs.

dumb cunny poster

Rolling for paladin

Shoot

We are at bump limit so go ahead

Rollrr

Fuck you user

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rollin gimme something magical

She really does not like it. Post more

Let's do this

White women, every time.

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All this means is you can only have two types of characters, you can either be the fighter archetype or the mage/rogue archetype.

Lol

There was one posted on /r9k/ once of a black girl and it was very hot but mods are fags and destroyed the thread

Well don't stop now, I'm just getting started

consoles. You can't do this shit with analog sticks.

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