How do we make MMO raid bosses feel 'epic' again?

Just start playing FF14 and realize you never knew what an epic raid boss was in the first place.

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You're right, but its also boring and too much work put in for too little reward.

>all spectacle, no soul
That's the problem with WoW. You're so used to poor writing that you can't even conceive of how much your game could be improved with competent storytelling.

Algalon's model really felt lame compared to his artwork.

Attached: Algalon.png (559x626, 806K)

Good audio and visuals, mostly.

SHIKI NI GOMI GA

Make people earn it. To even SEE bosses like C'thun, Illidan or Algalon you had to be a high-level player with hundreds of hours at the top level of play, never mind even killing them.
These days any geek can see and fight the latest and greatest raid bosses through LFR, and even if there wasn't LFR there are no difficult attunements, keys or questlines that need to be completed to unlock a raid or high-level dungeon.

Just do exactly what FFXIV does and you are golden.

youtu.be/WcWsZOUKlRk

If Algalon followed GOMAD, he would be called Algallon.

sandbox is the answer to all the mmos problems

These series of moments shook me. From the dungeon to the finale with the trail. This expansion had no damn excuse ending that good.

awful weeb garbage

we were pugging illidan pre 3.0, tf are you talking about

>weeaboos think ff14 has "competent storytelling"

true but the attunement system meant you still had to progressively completely the raids. although that itself had its own issues, but it kept the feeling of character progression for the most part that later xpacs removed.

There is inherently nothing epic about anything that you grind for loot.
It just becomes another lv. 1 slime.

At least miles ahead of world of faggots

Last time I played wow all of the main raids have a mythic only final boss that you could not see in LFR.

>my pile of shit is less smelly than that other pile of shit
Good job.

It's a video game. The actual mechanics are the most important part.

Ulduar was so good, i can't believe Blizzard pulled the Ulduar team off of WoW to work on Titan, which died anyway

Fuck

Shadowbringers is fucking amazing and I feel nothing but pity for people who still cling to Blizzard like you.

We're talking about how to make something epic. It has to be the full package, good music, good writing and good mechanics. WoW has been lacking on 2 out of 3 of those elements.

Don't bother, xivtrannies are absolutely fucking obsessed with wow for some reason. There's even xiv thread up right now talking about wow in the op despite wow being completely irrelevant nowadays.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=FT8lDuQtrgE
m.youtube.com/watch?v=dLqRKed8DAY

Come on son. I feel genuinely bad for wow raiders.

The fact that the post says "writing and music" makes me that think that the poster doesn't consider the mechanics to be that important.

I play wow

Nobody even plays wow anymore, who cares?

Stop making MMO endgame revolve around raids.

fpbp

I am the end and the beginning ginning ginning ginning
youtube.com/watch?v=xdV_bzJgRxE

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>member kefka?
>ooo i member when square was good too

take Ludwig "ah you were at my side all along" and make it a MMO boss. This is impossible though.

Cannot feel epic anymore since WoW casualized everything. What made encounters epic wasn't just the encounter themselves but all the organization required -just- to challenge the boss in the first place.

Algalon the Observer? More like Algalon the Guild Destroyer!

For making something epic? It really doesn't. Epicness comes from an emotional reaction. You make something epic through music and storytelling. You make the fight fun through mechanics.

>Interesting mechanics
Freefalling while fighting to the death, fighting on the boss' body which is fucking huge, etc. No bullet sponges.
>Sense of scale for large or powerful enemies
If an enemy can destroy a building with a punch, you WILL die if it connects with you. None of that anime power levels bullshit.
>Unique boss music
Most games do this, but a lot fail to add something so simple.
>Boss doesn't stand still
Take WoW bosses for example; they have attack speed, and only attack when their timer goes off. Say a boss has a 1 second timer; that means they will attack at least once per second. Fuck that noise, make them attack constantly.
>No arbitrary intermissions
"You're strong, but face my minions while I charge this attack in the back where you can't harm me until the timer runs down!" STOP THIS SHIT.
>Enemy attacks can all be dodged or blocked
No homing attacks like in WoW. No telegraphing like in Final Fantasy XIV. Look at the boss and react accordingly. Use your brain.
>1v1 boss encounters
Make parties have to split up and fight things 1v1. Even the healers. Stop making super large humans that everyone just shoots and hits until it dies.

Basically, use some fucking imagination when designing bosses. Phantasy Star Online 2 did this with some bosses, FFXIV does this for many bosses, and WoW did it for like 2 or 3 bosses. Make it feel like you're fighting a boss, not a large bullet sponge trash mob with a loot pinata.

have the higher quality bluray disc rip instead.
files.catbox.moe/9m9vvs.mp3

what competent storytelling
it's a fucking MMO, the player characters always win in saturday-morning-cartoon fashion by steamrolling through everything. there are no relevant decisions to be had because no person on this earth is willing to account for millions upon millions of people each picking their own choices

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Its really not hard. See this example of a fucking dungeon boss: youtube.com/watch?v=elUVA0O93Oo

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>Boss punishes you for attacking him
Ozruk was too good for Cataclysm.

Do what Lost Ark Online did.

See youtu.be/MAmn4x2r-O8?t=911

(15:11 if this didn't work).

>BREAK YOURSELF
>instantly die
it was too good. they never made a boss like this again.

>Lost Ark Online
Looked amazing but it's sadly already dying. Introduced new shit to it which crushed people's like of it, it got OK'd for outside East Asia with Russia taking it up but they are the biggest microtransations company in Russia and they do allow Western people in... if it ever gets to the West it'll be riddled with stuff.

Literally do what FFXIV is doing.

Yep.

Get rid of Action mmo formula and go back to RPG roots
Sure the old tank and spank was boring but when virtually all gear is now itemized towards specific specs and there's no room for trial and error in how you gear or play your class. Every fight is a mish mash of taunt swap, getting out of the fire, clumping or spreading for x or y mechanics.
Pressing tab or keybinds take no skill so might as well get rid of the pseudo ARPG mechanics and just bring bag strategy to the table.

Rastakhan was awesome, fuck off, you don't even play the game.

Cata had the absolute best boss lines. Too bad it became a dumpster fire after retail.

i liked how old school wow dropped bits of lore on you with environments, emotes and va, cutscenes and cinematics with no control suck

I hate how mmos are barely even rpgs anymore. The actual stats on gear in wow don't even matter, all that matters is the item level.

>emotional reaction
>through music and storytelling
What generated the most emotion was neither music nor story but what was at stake if you were losing. Because you'd needed 1+ hour to put a party together, another 2+ hours just to get to the boss. Add on top of that expensive consumable you bought for the fight and using abilities with very long cooldown meaning that you realistically only had a single clean shot where you could go all out. This is what gave people emotion, could it be the fear of losing, the rage of wasting an entire day, the joy of succeeding, being proud to be among the few to progress etc. Music and story were just a bonus.

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jaina was one of the greatest raidbosses of all time

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>little bitch elf kid with abnormal proportions
>taking this seriously
Gross anime pleb

Cata launch dungeons were fantastic, which is precisely why all the Wrath casuals couldn't handle them. Encounter design has slowly crept forward and I'd say that the stuff in BFA definitely matches what we had back then, though they've nerfed some of the stuff that wound up scaling really hard with key level, like Merethka's poison nearly instagibbing people.

>writing isn't important in the RPG genre

You faggots fucking slay me

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ARKS FUZEI GA

Shadowbringers is one of the better video game stories of the last decade.

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Memes can't be epic

Shadowbringers honestly blew me away. It's not only a good MMO story, it's a good game story, and one of the best JRPG stories since we had classics on the PS2/Dreamcast like Skies of Arcadia and Grandia 2.

>be me
>just hit 60PAL/30WAR on FFXI
>get invited to a Carbuncle Mittens raid run
>get told 'oh you need to have this item to even come'
>ask for guidance on where it is
>get shown
>'Okay user, it spawns in one of these dozen rooms, it's on a 24hr cool down, so stay here and try and grab it, it has a few people here so it might be soon'
>run around two rooms
>nothing
>go into third somebody ran past
>tab select
>Item You Need
>HOLY SHIT
>Grab it
>run out
>guy cheered for me
>fight all the way to the spawn point of the boss
>takes 4 hours
>even at Lv.60 with full AF1 I am at a risk of being raped without the Lv.75 help
>get to boss
>clear it three times, everybody who used their item spawned the boss and got the mittens
>guy leading goes 'Okay guys its been 8 hours, I gotta go, last one'
>I spawn it
>we kill it
>I roll to collect it
>dickhead tries to ninja it to avoid having to do another run
>I win it with a better roll
>everybody slags the cunt off
>We warp back home
>I only have a Lv.20 Summoner and have Carbuncles Mittens
>I still can't clear Rahmu boss fight
Oh well, still, an amazing feeling. One of the highlights of my time playing FFXI.

Sorry for blogpost but your image reminded me.

>it's an rpg because there are stats
MMOs are just shitty action games at this point.

Every mmo story has to end with "and then a bunch of random nobodies got together and beat him up". Things are rarely allowed to permanently change and the player character is forced to be a murderhobo that does what they're told. Good writing in an mmo is like winning the special olympics.

The fact that you remember everything is proof that shit on XI was so impactful. I still remember when I cleared CoP 8-4 after an 18-hours marathon with the same party which I cleared 6-4 with. It was just random people but eventually we all joined the same Sea Linkshell. I also still remember the day I got my novio earring like it was yesterday.

>weebs manage to make a better solo/casual mmo than blizzard
this is still not what anyone wants

>You make something epic through music and storytelling. You make the fight fun through mechanics.
Mechanics can absolutely tell a story, you need not look farther than Yea Forums's darling XIV to recognize that.

I was a Bong playing on Yank server. There was a real cunt. I quit the game and went to tell Linkshell I was and found I had been kicked. Got reinvited and said 'why was I kicked' and this dickhead went 'shut up or i'll do it again'. I raffled off all my gear too. Sword of Gluttony etc.

I also met somebody on it, said they were a girl, might not have been. Met them on the ferry. She (I'll refer to as she) gave me Lu Shangs fishing rod to try. I could have warped out and sold it. I didn't. When I quit she sat next to me quietly, sad, not speaking to me. She gave me her email. I never used it as I assumed it might have been a paedophile (I was 15 so, not an issue really). She was from Austria. I regret not writing it down. Wish I could contact them desu. Also found out you could duo HNM20 runs and make bank if you both went as summoners. Had I used Rahmu (which I couldn't get) we'd have cleared it in record time.

I liked how even simple navigation was an achievement in XI. None on this having a map to an area instantly upon reaching it, some you had to quest for others blindly find them sold by a merchant. The fun of exp groups in the jungle and having to guide people to your camp whenever a rep didn't have a map or kept falling into holes.

Oh and I forgot to say here I quit for personal reasons then went and played WoW and had lots of fun there too. Also lots of non-fun. So many cunts in the world who abuse power for no reason because they're not as liked as one person. I also had fun in Rift and Archeage. I really want a good MMO. I tried FFXVARR but got to Lv.20 odd and quit because I felt like I wasn't progressing quick enough.

Plot in an open world MMO is stupid, but, is okay for an instance based MMO to have a plot.

This is bullshit, here's why.

Raiding was a thing that started primarily in Everquest, the world would have super bosses in it and people would band together to kill these super bosses for loot, problem is, the developers didn't intend for players to have guilds 100+ players strong to kill these monsters during spawn, and there wasn't enough loot to go around, even then not everyone raided, most people in EQ were doing quests farming rare spawns ect, because thats where you got your clickables.

WOW came along and was developed by hardcore EQ nerds who were really into the idea of raiding, except the project lead who just enjoyed everquest as an online roleplaying game where everyone shared the same world.

The 1-60 content of WOW back in 2004 was 10/10 compared to anything else on the market at the time, arguably anything else that has come out since, as the original vanilla world was an immersive game with a ton of world building, opposed to the cinematic clusterfuck it became later on, this is what hooked players into playing WOW.

As for raiding in WOW? Yeah no everyone even back then fucking hated raiding, you'd hit 60, do dungeons, and slowly run out of content to do.

Some numbers for you, in 2005, the population of WOW was roughly 5 million active players, however the raiding numbers? only 30k players weekly. And the forums were flooded with people complaining about the lack of non-raid content, after diremaul, which came out a year earlier there was nothing added to end game except for the dungeon set questline that didn't really add anything new to end game for non-raiders.

After Vanilla came BC, and what was BC built for? Raiders, everything was streamlined for raiders and speed clearing, dungeons were a joke, linear loot hallways that were poorly designed and you'd only ever run 2-3 of them on heroic because they were the easiest to do for your badges.

And this trend continued with WOTLK, Cataclysm, ect getting worse each time.

I had fun on Rift initially as well, but I quickly grew tired. I was really used to old school MMOs like XI or DAoC. Rift was more wow-like, with a typical tier'd progression system, raids with weekly lockouts etc. Not my cup of tea.

RPGs are roleplaying games.

They're about storytelling, not story, there is a key difference.

You go to D&D to play a game where everyone plays a role and goes on an adventure with the DM acting as the creator and mediator of the world and the groups actions.

You don't go to D&D to listen to the DM talk about his shitty lord of the rings fanfics.

>The 1-60 content of WOW back in 2004 was 10/10 compared to anything else on the market at the time,
FF XI had better 1-75 content than WoW ever had, the comparison doesn't even stand. From the storyline, to music, to gameplay, monster diversity, areas etc.

Nothing in WoW was superior besides the QoL and the ease of access which pleased the more casual audience. XI was simply unplayable by an average joe due to all hurdle you had to jump even just to patch the fucking game. Hell you couldn't even ALT/TAB or play windowed mode without using a third party tool that could get you banned.

>My game was good because only weebs could enjoy its terrible grind and shoddy gameplay

Remove multiple difficulties

I loved it. The builds were fun as fuck. I made a build for my rogue(?) that basically relied on my dinosaur pet buffing me and me throwing bombs at it. Or something like that. Was amazing. I also found an amazing place to farm. Basically there was groups of 5-6 bats, with a boar nearby. 5-6 bats died in a couple of hits, idea being glass cannons. What I'd do is grab 30 odd plus a couple of boars and AoE them to death while my pet tanked. I then could skin them all. Each stack of leather sold for 1 Plat on the AH or 50 silver to NPC. I had so many I flooded the market (sadly it wasn't used for many good recipes). I sold a load to NPC's and bought my epic mount. I got really friendly with half a dozen girls or so, but got in trouble as I was flirting with them and one turned out to be married to a guild member who resented me being there. There was also a dude there who literally said once 'The reason we wiped is because of the girls' and wondered why the girls didn't help them. One day he asked for one of them, a healer, to come help me, but she said she was hanging with me. He then blocked me. He then whined when me and the girls went into private channels together. Finally, one of the girls was a camwhore and she became really clingy to me. So much so that I quit. Had I blocked her, she'd have topped herself.

Anyway, yeah... blog posting. I had a lot of fun.

It still had better content, I'm not denying all its flaw which I listed. Doesn't change the fact that no game came close at the time, content wise.

Stop using monster AI that should have stayed in the 90s?

Seriously, using the same basic monster AI from EQ for 20 years and making it harder by having the monster shit out instant death groundfire doesn't make the game fun or interesting.

>tfw I used to ALT/TAB to crash out of the game on purpose to avoid doing stuff if I was bored
I loved that.

Or when you wanted to GTFO a party without looking for a replacement. Tons of reasons to fake d/c for sure.

>dungeons were a joke
Heroics were god-tier and daily heroics meant that all of them got run on rotation. The vanilla dungeons that weren't linear were always farmed as if they were linear. Nobody regularly ran the entirety of brd, they'd run it once for quests and then only do emp runs.

nah, wow had way more iconic quests, ffxi is forgettable

>How do we make MMO raid bosses feel 'epic' again?

Play FFXIV, already got the epic raid bosses there:

youtube.com/watch?v=i5CKRr89YFs

play wildstar
oh wait
you let it die

and so the best raid bosses in mmorpg history are lost to time forevermore.

It was also a period where no broadband so somebody phoning in would cause a DC. My phone rang at 18:00pm on certain days to confirm my dad was on call as a doctor. So I'd always DC. Back then I loved farming as well. I befriended a Gold Seller (I'm this guy btw ) and he gave me full HQ Fishing Set, full HQ Mining/Logging Set and he told me how to grow those rare elemental ores that sold for like 400,000GIL each (I was too lazy to do it). I would kill those turtle monsters in the mines at the beach area (Sub-job quest area, forgot the name) and then would ask somebody to disenchant them for me to get ignots to sell. Hoping for Platnium or Darksteel Ignots to sell. The issue was, needed to spend like 5000g+ on a stack of Dark Crystals and it took hours to farm 20 backplates. Obviously I was mining in Full HQ Mining gear for the odd rare ore. I always fully maxed my gear so much so I was known in the levelling as the better Paladin choice because of it.

I keep talking about my experiences ;_; sorry

Why are there so many xiv shills on Yea Forums?

Point and laugh at this ignorant moron.

It feels bad that some people won't experience the amazing stuff that it has because of their stubbornness

Imagine being as retarded to believe linear hallways are fun.

>why does the most popular MMO have people who enjoy it

Truly a mystery.

Stop using the same gameplay design from everquest in 20 fucking 19.

Wow great argument, you really proved me wrong when I said that vanilla dungeons were ran like linear dungeons most of the time.

>haven't played ffxiv in years
>totally forgot the plot and how to play
>want to play the game but don't wanna restart all over again

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>Most popular
It just broke one million accounts created, thats the first milestone of any big budget WOW clone.

just check out the /vg/ thread and it'll become clear

stop setting everything up for the players and telling them what to do
the reason it felt epic was because all 24 people involved in the raid had to manually get to that point on their own and they had to arrange everything on their own somehow

M Jaina was a pretty epic and overall great encounter. It's rare to have a long, punishing multi-phase fight that still doesn't feel like it gets old or that you're wasting your time going through the motions on earlier phases when you should know better. Great sense of progression as you gradually master the mechanics and see more and more of the fight and before they can get old, they get replaced or get a new twist. A lot of long fights fall trap to the "okay now you've seen all this fight has to offer, just repeat it for the next 5 minutes" and that gets boring, but Jaina stays fresh because there's small or big new stuff being thrown at you all the time.

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youtube.com/watch?v=uv_b1-bsN5o

they just released a new expansion
it'll die down in a few weeks like any other new game

It's either linear hallways or linear hallways that involve backtracking and that confuse new players. There's no such thing as "exploration" in dungeons

It's at 14 million created, 1 million concurrent.

don't fall for xiv tranny tricks, pay attention to what they are saying, talking about a fucking 50 hour solo quest and not gameplay

Wow jeez wilikers you've convinced me, im going to sub ffxiv and buy everything in the cash shop right now!

I bet you're also one of the faggots who believe the forced cookie cutter specs are a good thing because everyone before hand just because you copy pasted theory crafted builds from elitist jerks.

Imagine being so retarded that you can't play a game without someone else doing it for you.

There was no fun or exploration in BC dungeons, they were hallways, you just cleared the bosses and moved to the next one for badges, they had almost no quests in them, and the quests that did exist were just 'kill the final boss and loot the item next to them' quests, with the exception of the speedrun attunement quests.

BC dungeons were a joke in level design.

Some RMT were bros to be honest, with some camping I sometime party'd with them so we'd do 50/50 and we had an easier time claiming against other players/RMTs.
>I keep talking about my experiences ;_; sorry
It's fine, post screenshot if you still have some also!

>google this
>youtube.com/watch?v=vanNDeedNrY
And I thought WoW's story was bad!

dire maul was fun but that one clusterfuck dungeon, was it brd, was too much

Any reason why you keep avoiding my point and keep trying to change the subject?

create 9 classes, 3 specs each and only give them 1 ability

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whats the harder game wow or ff14?
I've played neither

FF14 if you prefer high-tier raiding. The ultimate fights are the hardest in any MMO, bar none.

WoW has things like PvP though if you prefer that.

lmao

you're deluded, there is no serious raiding in xiv

WoW. FFXIV is so fisher price that healers spend most of a fight spamming one DPS ability.

you're not wrong but wowfags are still in denial about the difficulty of their game

wow hatespeech in 2009, hope he was banned

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Only thing that's missing is grinding for gear, since getting BiS is trivial

I only played up to the 1st expansion. The one that added the weird quasi-realm with Lv.30 cap and the cool tropical area. I forget the name of that expansion and the dungeon. I used to play a FFIX song as I attempted to clear it.

>The ultimate fights are the hardest in any MMO, bar none.
t. only played WoW and XIV in his life.

I wanted to like Rift but I git really pissed when most of the most recommended souls were purchase only. Really grinded on me.

Why do you have such a thin skin?

is joke

I-I knew that...

Rise of Zilart was the first expansion and the tropical area was like the Jungle.

Weren't soul free? I don't remember having to pay for my 3 souls. But I played at launch, maybe it changed when it went F2P?

Early Cata dungeons were unironically pretty fucking great. When Blizz gave into brainlets and made them facerollable it killed WoW for me for good.

Speaking of, how do I into raids in FFXIV. Do I need a group pls VC or duty finder is enough? New lvl 60 BLM here

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>tfw Lost Ark Online looks great
>tfw I know it won't be based on the info from people who played it have said it has changed
Help me bros. I just want a good MMO with lots of fun stuff to do. The reason MMO's have died is due to datamining.

>When the expansion's theme plays on the final boss of the expansion

Fucking. Kino.
youtube.com/watch?v=9O5-yJjJpZ4

If you want any hope of constant success, you'll need Discord and a static group. Otherwise it's a crapshoot.

WoW endgame raids have a shitload of trash mobs to go through and with 20 people in mythic more likely someone will fuck up but it doesn't cost too much unless it's someone important like tank or heal. Mechanics are complex at times but not that much harder or easier than stuff I see in XIV
XIV endgame raids have flashy indicators and full instructions on what to do. No trash mobs, they're all straight to the boss. Usually small rooms with 8 players only, so one guy fucking up has a huge impact and ruins everything guaranteed. Long-ass global cooldown on skills and constant timing mechanics in general is harder to deal with in XIV than WoW.
Overall idk, they're just too different to really compare, one is aimed more towards 20 people trying to put one thing together, and the other one is 8 people trying individually not to fuck up

There were dlc only souls, that most people considered to be the best and most fun souls. Costed over 60 bucks to buy them all last time tried to play. Killed my fun.

You can pug everything fairly reliably except Savage and Ultimate fights.

Even those can be pugged if you're determined enough and don't mind bashing your head into a single fight for a few days/weeks.

Most raid trash is actually fairly substantive. They usually use a couple bosd mechanics to ease you into things. Which I think is kind of neat. Modern wow doesnt really interest me anymore, but their raids are almost always good.

it's fine until savage, then you'll find a vastly improved experience with having people who you can communicate with live

Is it easy to solo an ARR raid at lvl 70?

based
Yeah some of those access items were a pain in the ass but once you got used to it, you even got better at doing IRL stuff. Higher level players often would help out lowbies just for the nostalgia of going into some of those old areas again.
Also fuck ninja looters.

CoP was one fucking hell of a filter. I was going a static with a guy who really wanted to finish it, a few weeks before the level caps were removed. Just to get past airship fight I had to learn shit like WHM does not cast Reraise, use an item instead, because that 150MP takes too long to recover.

>Also found out you could duo HNM20 runs and make bank if you both went as summoners.
SMN burns popping the 2hr were OP as fuck. That tunnel west of Bastok would cause the region to change alliance because of who had been running SMN burns that week.
Also faggots would repeatedly run into mobs and de-level just so they could be the level sync mule in a SMN burn. Of course they did it where I played a lot and it was annoying as fuck.

>The fun of exp groups in the jungle and having to guide people to your camp whenever a rep didn't have a map or kept falling into holes.
You-hate-our-jungle could get confusing as fuck, but you had to learn it just to keep from getting lost and dying to a random Goblin Smithy.

>Kino
???

Yeah, this was quite early on, nobody really knew of 2HR SMN runs because the items that dropped were never in the AH. I ran it with my mate and we made a fair amount on it. I still can't believe that girl gave me Lu Shang's Rod... I could have warped out and sold it for 30,000,000GIL+. Would have been a dick move but kek.

>want to get into raids
>have lots of time
>don't like talking in voice chat with literally who's

FUUUUUCK ME BROS

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MMO's are fundamentally simple games by design because you can't have a complex game with physics and movement and strict timing of abilities with a big connected world.
This simplicity means once you've done enough raid bosses you've kinda done them all. It's hard for them to feel "epic" again.
Additional layers of mechanics and a flashier presentation can help but those are just dressing for a fundamentally bland dish.
What makes raids feel epic comes from the logistics. A lot of people working together with a common goal, unpredictable elements playing a role and dealing with the complications of the format.
When raids went from 40 to 25 and 10 they didn't just become more accessible or easier to organize, they lost the logistics hell that was coordinating 40 people throughout a raid.
And losing that came at a very heavy cost. Raids will just always struggle to feel epic when the raid size is just 25, it's small and convenient, there's less chaos and less wow factor compared to seeing 40 people running around trying to manage to bring a boss down while a loud asshole yells at them for fucking up.

I played FFXI back in the day, and I was so sick of the idea of tier-after-tier raid gear crap. It's one of the reasons I never played WoW. I thought it was worse that the tiers in WoW were so generic that they got referred to by different colors.

>Some numbers for you, in 2005, the population of WOW was roughly 5 million active players, however the raiding numbers? only 30k players weekly.
Thanks, Tigole!

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Yeah, Deathwing was so much better, LMAO

The more I think about it, I think organized raiding was a mistake. Most of the difficulty comes from the logistics of managing 20/25/40 people rather than the bosses themselves. I always hated feeling like we kept losing because 1 or 2 people would make a single mistake and blow everyone up. I think it would be far more satisfying to have smaller group challenging content rather than having raids be the be-all-end-all of hard content.

I think raids work better for things like world bosses, where you just grab as many people as possible and and go fight the big bad guy, regardless of those players strengths. A big part of what made raiding feel epic to me was just the sheer number of people fighting.

I dont have much time and work nights. Which sucks because I love raiding and am good at it. But good luck to me finding a good group that raids Sunday-tuesday only.

Deathwing? Do not remind me of deathwing and Thrall "I am the chosen one" aka princess fairy magical saiyan jesus. I hate him, so, so much.

>Want to play FFXIV
>Even the 'fastest' class is boring as fuck

>Inb4 B-BUT COMPLEX ROTATIONS
come on, don't pretend like remembeing a 60 second cycle is a hard thing

inconsequential and has no effect in the story

I quit during Legion. Tell me what made this particular boss fight so good.

at least deathwing didn't walk in place and rotate around his z axis half the fight

if you go for high end raiding you get exactly what you ask for, content that is challenging due to its mechanics and gear restrictions

but then the problem there is the top guilds require autistic amounts of time commitment, you'd think there'd be a bunch of "look just be a good player and we can do this quickly" guilds but in reality there's like 3

Heh, I started in 2008 when the economy was deflating like a tire with a small hole in it. But I still managed to keep finding ways to get money.
My best was when RMT realized they could take wildgrass seed from AU and water crystals, then have new accounts do gardening to get good vendor trash from it. It drove the price of water crystals up by at least 4x. (to 4000/cluster) So I would wander around Passhow on BLM and one-shot nuke elementals to get clusters. It was funny watching RDMs that thought they were such hot shit try to wear down an elemental that I could insta-nuke.
Then SE figured it out, and nerfed gardening for any character newer than 45 days. (gardening always gave 1x of an item).

It's sort of like when a cliche is used well
It's a Yea Forums thing

boss itself is fun, you start on a ship and then Jaina freezes the entire ocean and that becomes the battleground

WoW PvP the difficulty is derived from your opponent so that depends
XIV ultimates are top but they're pretty unique fights, only two in the game so far
WoW raid tier last boss would be second hardest, and XIV raid tier last boss would be third after that

that's literally XIV
the hard content is for 8 player groups while 24 player raids are more casual fun

Guess where Tigole is now, Overwatch

Careful you might trigger a tranny

Ulduar was the peak of WoW. Everything went downhill from there

Boss arena gets bigger instead of shrinking? That's new, I think.

Having 40-man raids also depends on keeping enough of a player base to get 40 people to do the same thing for an evening. With more expansions there were more different things to do, and when the MMO bubble popped, it was hard to get enough people for all the content. FFXI post Adoulin was particularly bad about this. There was some content that you had to get a clear on so you could do important upgrades, but the gear was no longer godly enough for the people who had figured them out to care.
And then there was the guild pyramid scheme looting that meant new players would have to participate in raids for months to ever get the chance to loot the really good stuff.

>WoW population PEAKED during WOTLK
your entire post is now invalid.

not even him but that's factually correct, go check your numbers retard

>but then the problem there is the top guilds require autistic amounts of time commitment
Yeah, that's the other problem with raiding. It feels less like a game and more like a job. I played a holy priest in WoW and there were several times where I wished I could take the night off and do something else, but the raid needed a healer.

That sounds nice, though groups of 8 still sounds pretty big. When I said smaller group content, I was thinking more like groups of 3-5. You know, small enough that you can really feel your individual contribution to the team.

a bunch of what is said here Our guild killed Jaina world top 200 which is pretty respectable, I'd like to think we're pretty good, but the point is we killed her before pretty much any big nerfs. We had like 500 pulls before the first kill which is a lot, even among end bosses that's not nothing. And most bosses where you had that many pulls would really feel like shit towards the end, but with Jaina, progress was never dull because as you learn the mechanics of the fight, you really feel like you master them and then you get to see a bit more of the fight. And then you master those mechanics and see even more and so on and so forth. There is a real internal sense of progress, it's really a fight about understanding and properly dealing with the mechanics. And there's a lot of stuff going on, so it makes you feel good when you beat it all.

It's a bit hard to put into words, but a negative example might show just how rare it is for a long, hard fight to not feel like shit. The final boss of the next raid, Crucicle, was also a long ass, multi-phase fight, but that was a fight where most people didn't really enjoy progress because there it was just super punishing and you don't really see much new stuff in the fight. You see the gist of all the mechanics in like a minute and then it's just "well now play those perfectly for the next 7 minutes lol"

no it's entirely a different area, you have to move there or the wall closes and you die

>being a wowlet

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youtube.com/watch?v=tr2qJXmdmlU
phases change at 3:30

>not even him
Then don't bother jumping into the middle of this.He never mentioned the population during WOTLK, I was telling him that's when it peaked. Fucking retard.

Wrath was fine pre-TOC except that level 80 Naxx was too fucking easy.

When Ulduar was current there wasn't any other way to get 219-232 gear other than a few pieces from OS/EOE, doing the Heroic dailies for like 4 weeks to get one piece of gear, and extremely expensive craft-ables. That and half the Hardmodes were actually way too difficult for most guilds.

youtu.be/jHJ_hqJewM0

He was pretty ebin despite the expac being overall shit

You never "explored" in vanilla dungeons anyway, idiot. Why don't you listen to what he's saying? Someone in the group always knew where to go and you would never stray from that path unless there was a quest someone had to do. Vanilla dungeons were also shit and had the most braindead, boring mechanics in any expansion. They were boring to run. They were boring to play. They always took an hour or more to complete. They were improved upon in every way in successive expansions.

he legit said wow was bad
why do xiv players always default to "it must be wow" whenever anything bad is said about their game?
it's fucking weird

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Naxx wasnt even that bad because it's the first time they introduced raid achievement mounts (afaik?) and it was a blast going through the 25 achieves desu

it's tradition

Blackhand was too good for that shitty expac. At least Blizzard recognized that he needed an entire raid instead of what happened with Kargath.

if it is instance based it is not a mmo

Just finished the last fight, what did I think of this expansion?

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I don't think I really get it, but thanks. That was a good informative reply.

I'm okay with MMOs doing "layers" where it'll start a new instance in your local area after there are too many people nearby.
It's when the game always puts you in a private instance, so either you're alone or with just your party, that is the problem. If you can't randomly encounter other people all over the place, then you're just playing a solo game, but it's in "The Cloud!!!"

I miss the competition of claiming in XI
People complained that they couldn't claim and now everyone just fights everything in their own instance

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But is it worth it from a development standpoint to devote massive resources to something only 2% of the player base will see? I think LFR is a terrible mistake, but there has to be some middle ground.

this shit right here
you don't deserve to even see a boss if you can't get there
you don't deserve to see the story if you can't kill it
it's a videogame, not a book, you should have to earn your shit, there's supposed to be a barrier of entry

Some vanilla dungeons had split paths and non-linear design, leading to groups occasionally arguing about which way is right, what order to do bosses in, or whether they need to clear this pack or that pack. It's not much, but I preferred that over narrow linear corridors.

Other than that yeah you're right. There were a handful of interesting mechanics in Dire Maul (tribute runs) but that was it. Slow, boring, and simple.

Also one more thing you missed. Dungeons with wild level ranges, Uldaman being the bestworst example. People who could clear the place got jack shit from the first half, people who benefited from the early parts couldn't clear the end boss.

lfr should have been removed after flex raids, they're better in every way

I report anyone who calls me mean names
if you cant win - join them

Final fantasy is weebwankfest trash, everything is 'big and epic' and 'apocalyptic' there's no personal strife or emotion. Just a bunch of one dimensional caricature jap memes and bright shiny lights. Sailor moon for manbabies. Get wrekt anime shitters

Well there isn't much competition anymore when your aren't on Ass-ura. Also it's not fun when people would run claimbots ("NASA"?)
But I loved when someone was jacking around claiming stuff I wanted when I was going /WHM, I would start using Flash (and Dia during the cooldown) to claim shit.

You discovered a sense of self that allows you to form personal opinions and appeal. You now have the ability to define what is valuable to you as a complete person and no longer need Yea Forums to tell you what you think.

Faggot.

There was a study done back in pre-BC days, and only about 14 percent of players gave a shit about end-game.
This was at the peak of MMORPG's too!

This trend was the same when FFXI 2.0 was released. Only about 10-15 percent of the players downed Bahamut at the time he was the super boss.

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They're a much better substitute, but you still end up with people wanting to see achievements two weeks after the content releases. I am forced to make my own or join a group who obviously do not know the mechanics and end up wasting time. It's why I don't play WoW anymore.

Two weeks? Nigga shitters have been asking for achievements on patch day since forever.

XIV is adding more and more bosses that eschew the targeting indicators for 'pay attention or die' real telegraphing.

if your guild won't take you to a flex normal raid there's something wrong with you or your guild, any 10 retards can go derp around for easy loot

There's been a few oddball bosses here and there that ignore the ground marker system entirely. Coincounter and other cyclops and minotaur types, and those twin owlbeardragons in that one HW instace. The latter ones didn't give a shit about threat mechanics either. Fun stuff.

Also I don't think Dive Bomb type attacks make ground markers either, just mark their target and everyone has to look up where the boss is and figure out the attack's line by themselves.

Most savage/ultimate bosses also don't have indicators unless it's something that has to be very finely placed to avoid wiping the raid.

A lot of ShB's bosses also don't have markers for some mechanics. It's nice to see in more casual content.

Why are all mmos such shit nowadays? Is it because everyone is chasing money instead of trying to make good games?

If they're not chasing p2w they're chasing being a wow clone. Or if they're in Korea they end up making another pw2 waifu simulator with seizure-inducing combat grafics.

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Not all MMOs. There's a few good ones like FFXIV. But yes, in general, most companies just want the most money with least amount of work instead of finding a niche and sticking with it.

Hades is a very big and recent example of a boss that has barely any 'generic' attack markers, if that makes any sense.

>Not all MMOs. There's a few good ones like FFXIV.

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