Simplifying gameplay doesn't bring in more sales

100% although MK11 proves him wrong, I guess that's one exception

on occasion he shills for money, on occasion he shills because he genuinely likes a product, franchise or company and wants to get the word out
you can tell when he's being legit when he starts talking about some shit that's kind of inconsequential, like telling a story or playing a game nobody but him and his friends give a fuck about
youtube.com/watch?v=OalvWEJCZBA
like he makes a shitload of content on FFVIIR but it's because he's been waiting on it for his entire adult life, like a lot of people have, and just wants to talk about it and share information with his fans
does that make him a shill or a fan? you choose

I hate buying a fighter and feeling like I've had my fill of it forever in a single session, absolutely one of the worst feelings I've ever had with a game and it's happened more than a few times

>gameplay that still appeals to competitive
>Smash
have shower

>smash ultimate did so well
>appeals to competitive
>smash

Attached: 1536603218848.gif (220x160, 586K)

I also used to watch Max before he became a full-on twitch streamer. He used to be so cynical about fighting games. I remember when he did Online Warrior, he would talk about how new players aren't the ones buying fighting games and companies have to rely on old fans to survive.

in the video he also talked about just having more content in general, like how while smash ultimate improved the mechanics from 4, the whole thing with "Everyone is Here!" was a big thing that that drew people in. MK was also good with a bunch of content. When street fighter V made it the gameplay easier from IV it didnt have much content to back up the entire packaeg until AE released.

>Fighting games
Dead genre

>although MK11 proves him wrong
That game 100% sold on content not quality gameplay. Casuals weren't going wow look at the depth here this will be great for the competitive scene. They went yo Shao Kahn is back and he is in the big cinematic story mode? The graphics are super realistic? Boon said the krypt is the biggest and most epicest yet? Oh shit this trailer used the movie song, sold.

>I hate buying a fighter and feeling like I've had my fill of it forever in a single session
Strangely enough I felt this way after playing Street Fighter V. I loved 3 and 4, but 5 just didn't do it for me, it didn't seem to have the same depth.

Yes, most competitive games are actually jokes. Smash, CSGO, Overwatch, Mobashit, all of them have competitive but all of them are jokes.

people compete in Smash, it's an inherently competitive game
don't tell me you've never gotten heated cause one of your friends was whooping your ass with some character you hate in smash
it's the same shit, but the "competitive scene" is just a huge version of that campus scene you probably never experienced because you never went outside and made friends

I remember the good old days
I caught like his first or second stream ever, it was literally just him talking shit on cam and running through all of his tech he had set up for streaming, making sure his capture worked and shit
wound up watching the SF2 movie from the sf anthology on xbox and talking with chat, no donations, no subs, no bullshit
he's a cool guy deep down, he just has a career that necessitates appealing to a wider audience

>people compete in Smash, it's an inherently competitive game
I can smell you through the screen, mah dude. Bing boing wahoo to you, my smelly friend.

felt that way with sfv, dbfz, and persona a friend split it with me and I let him keep it
I'm saying this dumbing down of shit and "opening up the game to newcomers" is all handled in the completely wrong way

I don't even like Max but he's absolutely right here. If you have any friends that are just casual players then it's pretty obvious.

>I've followed max for a long enough time to know it's an act for the camera to make his persona more palatable to his main audienc
I stopped watching when he started uploading more DBFZ and MK11 cause those games are just so boring to watch. His new intro is too long, and his reaction vids are too forced. His cloud reaction to smash was pretty good tho.

Attached: cloud before tifa enters his mind.png (1245x650, 1.36M)

I never played Persona but always wanted to try it. I've been going back to older games and recently playing Tekken 7.

not really
when characters are balanced for 1 frame links or offline tournaments you might find yourself at a skill level in which a specific character ( with an easier execution but theoretical lower tier ) will absolutely dominate 99% of the playerbase

obviously people will leave that game en masse

Smash has basically been the same game everytime. I don't see any new mechanics (maybe except supers). The new things are characters, items and stages which could all basically have been DLC.

If you have "tournament legal" stages, your game is not a fighting game.

you must have literally never enjoyed competition in a single fighter in your entire life if you're willingly choosing to miss my point this hard
go outside

maybe persona got way, way better at some point in the series, I know it's been running for a long time now, but man that first entry just felt really bizarre and jank
like it had all of the gameplay elements of an anime fighter but it was shoehorned into this weird rotting carcass of a fighter with all of these comeback mechanics and forced recovery options and get-off-me buttons and shit, just made absolutely no sense to me
have to admit i don't love anime fighers though, only one I think is any good is melty blood, and I guess unist by extension though I don't love that either. I might be missing something fun about it

>Niggerdagger.

classic

Attached: 1361075134840.jpg (491x515, 45K)

The only people that watch Max don't actually play fighting games. They're there to watch a hypebeast scream at the screen

It worked for SF4

I think a good way to describe it is versatility. SFV characters are not very versatile, Woshige has even said when designing it he wanted everything to have a set purpose. That can be okay on paper, but characters like that then need a lot of tools to make it work. SFV characters don't. Your defensive options are very limited and pretty weak. Your offensive options are a bit less limited yet all highly risky. Pressure is also straight forward but you can extend it for a while. It is easy to steal turns if your opponent won't take some kind of risk to bring it back. And the nature of risky play is sometime you are just wrong.

I think that is why SFV feels dumb, the game doesn't give you options outside of a small pool of go stupid and hope it works out. You can get a better idea of the holes in pressure and how your opponent plays. But the game doesn't give you much of any real strength to take advantage of that in your own way.

Each Smash has a pretty different feel to it, you'd notice it big time if you tried Brawl after playing some Melee. Even Ultimate plays pretty differently than Sm4sh with it being a far more aggressive game where as in Sm4sh defensive play was king with how powerful shields use to be

well they can't keep milking the old fanbase forever, they need to get newblood in eventually. SF4 did it and they are able to do it without making it too casual

There are always new people who do want to get into them. Genres do need breakout games that will bring the masses in, but that isn't really related to the gameplay. SF4 did well cause it was SF coming back, the simplifications were more minor things with new complexities brought in on top. If SF4 hadn't made motions easier it would likely have been just as successful

He is correct sales fags want casual shit

He is a shill and barely tries to hide it
The stuff he actually enjoys doesn't make him enough money to make content on, you sometimes see him get annoyed/upset about that but he chose this life so whatever
and I don't even blame him to be honest, if I could get people donating a sizeable amount of money to me all day just for sitting on my ass playing video games with friends I'd do it too

Wtf i play almost only fighting games and i watch Max since the mvc3 days, sometimes the main reason for me to not bought a game is that i can't beat the living hell out of others players online, that's why games like Cyberpunk don't get my atention.

THIS IS HIS SISTER

Attached: 52d18f30d5f92.jpg (731x1100, 231K)

He openly used to make videos with the intention of getting casuals into fighting games. Nowadays he's just a more generic reaction video type streamer guy though, just with a leaning towards fighting games.

Tattoos always kills it for me and don't know why

Attached: 1559299774169.jpg (1280x1143, 80K)

I was going to make a giant post on why he's wrong, but I figured no one would read it. However, there are multiple examples that prove him wrong.

1. BlazBlue sells more than Guilty Gear. The games are practically identical except one's more casual and the other's more technical.

2. Every Morrowind fans says Oblivion is just a casualized Morrowind. Every Oblivion fan says Skyrim is just a casualized Oblivion. Skyrim outsold Oblivion which outsold Morrowind.

3. FFXI vs. FFXIV. Self-explanatory.

4. There's a -0.27 correlation between the sales of each Smash game and a variable which I'll have to explain: it's how much the biggest earner in playing that game competitively has won divided by how much was won by the player in the 90th percentile for earnings. This variable is a proxy for skill. The idea behind it is that every game is won by some combination of skill and luck. The more skill-loaded a game is, the less luck there is, and the more luck-loaded a game is, the less skill there is. Luck is evenly distributed between players while different players have more or less skill. This means that heavily luck-loaded games will have smaller gaps between player outcomes than heavily skill-loaded games. Imagine playing rock-paper-scissors with LeBron James 1000 times and then playing H.O.R.S.E. with LeBron James 1000 times. You'll win at rock-paper-scissors about 500 times, but you'll win at H.O.R.S.E., well, much less. In other words, games where one guy never seems to win twice are probably low skill, while games where the same faces win every time are probably high skill. This is all relative, of course. So, why 90th percentile? I wanted it to be a percentile because different games have a different playersize and I wanted that to be ignored; I chose 90th because it seemed appreciably distant enough without getting to outlier territory.

You're probably unironically a virgin who thinks a woman should be 'pure'. Tattoos imply she's not.
Get over it, tattoos are hot.

You posted a bunch of examples that back up what he's saying though

Because you're 100% guaranteed a virgin. That's only a virgin thing.

It's fine to just not like tattoos, ignore autists on here who tell you otherwise. There doesn't need to be a literal hivemind consensus on absolutely everything.

>You're probably unironically a virgin who thinks a woman should be 'pure'.
Ah, so he's a civilized man, then.
>Get over it
Don't tell him to be a nigger like you.

How did he get away with it

I thought what he was saying was that casualizing a game DOESN'T bring in more sales? My examples all show the opposite.

No, he said smash is a fighting game, fuck him

Imagine having that face
That balding hair
and making 1 million videos with other ugly ass people watching in "support"
Over shilling whatever gets him paid

Whatever happened to that rolling thunder fighter, wasn't that built around casuals.

The skyrim example isn't that great because the market has greatly expanded and the value of the IP has increased. You're correct though pluralist design works which is why everything breaks down to the lowest common denominator. It's all about hitting as many market demographics as possible.

Ultimately he is correct shit like granblue hype completely died once people got their hands on it. Arksys is going competely wrong about bringing more playsers to the FGC and fighting games in general.

Keep in mind the BEST selling fighting game series is shockvalue garbage that sells on presentation and presentation alone.

because he was clearly fucking around with tongue twisters during it, and the majority of people that watch him are 90s kids
that and he got the N word pass from steve and kenny

>Smash
>appeals to competitive
You are so stupid.

Attached: 235231322412.png (778x700, 467K)

>1
You clearly know fuck all about either.

>2
The point isn't more casual = sells less. Did you actually watch the video?

>3
You didn't make any point

>4
That is legit a load of nonsense. Smash has lots of characters and content so sells well. Unsurprisingly SmashU has outsold past games already cause it has so much. Casuals respond to content not gameplay.

Smash is actually considerably higher selling than Mortal Kombat.

And MK9 and MKX actually have solid gameplay. MK11 is getting by on the character roster more than anything else. The gameplay is only OK.

Comparing Smash to fighting games is retarded. Smash is like Mario Kart, it is bought and played by casual Nintendo players who just want a funny party game.

Granted, Mortal Kombat is the most casual of all big fighting game titles.

wrong

simplified mechanisms does not mean simplified gameplay at all. the thing that people outside FG nerds ploblematize is how fighting games are not intuitive enough to attract more people, not just being "difficult". the reason why FPS is so popular is the genre is really intuitive and beginners are really easy to get into it, but despite that, the genre do not deny having a skill gap between players. it has a very competitive pro scene as well.

these fighting games nerd's elitism that Fighting games are fun because it is "difficult" is a perfectly myth, and misses the point of the debate.

and, I am not sure what this idiot refers to in this video, but if he implied samsho then he is proving he is just a clown again. its not pandering to casuals at all. it is what the series has been.

>My examples all show the opposite.
They don't, you've assumed that more casual gameplay is the only factor in what made each game sell. Did DBFZ sell so well cause of the easier gameplay, or because IP, Graphics and content? Max wasn't saying if you dumb down the game it cannot sell, but that the real reason a fighter does well lies elsewhere.

Yes it's why DMC5 sucks. casual players didn't even get them passed expected sales numbers and pro players hate it.
noone likes V even tho he was specifically made for retarded braindead people.
it's a lose, lose.

Smash sold well because it's fucking Smash. The game could've been Sakurai literally taking a shit on the characters and it would've still sold.

What worked for SF4 is that it had literally no competition near nor for years after its release. It was just as much of a Duty Fighter as SFV is now.

I like Max

>simplified mechanisms does not mean simplified gameplay
He doesn't say that. Even praised a few simple games and how some games have simplified aspects. The truth is though that whether it is the most simple game ever or super complex, casuals don't really care and buy stuff cause of other factors.

> I am not sure what this idiot refers to in this video
I like how you are getting angry at what you think he said in the video, when he actually said the opposite and praised samsho.

Is there a popular YouTuber that ISN'T a shill?

>reddit spacing
>complaining about "elitism"
you have to go back

Older SFs just loosely threw shit together in an engine and balanced around it. Sfv has too much of the devs hands in the way combos are balanced. You dont get the feeling of "discovering" your character in ways the devs did not already plan out. It follows the overwatch esports design philosophy of no fun allowed.

SFV actually has the occasional unconventional cool combos and 1f links you can do, but there is literally no reason to do them other than style points.

I wouldn't even say the Roster is that great. MK 11 sold really well primarily because MK9 and X did their job and built up that brand recognition. Casuals have already dropped it, and the game is totally catered towards the esports scene. It's going to be interesting to see the sales for MK 12.

Yea Forums thinks everyone is a shill. There's no meaning to it

true.
but this video is unironically 100% correct

>Whatever happened to that rolling thunder fighter, wasn't that built around casuals.
Rising thunder, and it got shutdown along with S-Kill and co being bought out by riot. It was geared towards casuals with one button specials on cooldowns, no real intricate inputs or necessities that you can't learn in practice mode for a bit. Casuals hated it after a while because they never learned how to actually deal with situations like the instant air fireball Chel and they spammed rank until they fought actual fighting players which resulted in the casuals losing hard.

fuck off shill

>reddit spacing

You're a fucking retard. Nobody complained about this until recently

Skyrim is more complex than Morrowblivion.

>>>/preschool/

>I like Max
Look at this dood

Attached: 1485925917616.jpg (480x360, 20K)

>The point isn't more casual = sells less. Did you actually watch the video?
Yes, I did. He was telling developers not to dumb down a game just to bring in more sales, because it doesn't work. I'm questioning that hypothesis, because everywhere I look, the opposite appears to be true.
>You didn't make any point
FFXI was considered "hardcore," for whatever's that worth. FFXIV is normalfag shit.
>That is legit a load of nonsense. Smash has lots of characters and content so sells well.
You're calling my post nonsense, when your response to me saying some Smash games sell better than others and this is negatively correlated with skill is, "Smash sells a lot!" Wow. You sure got me.
>Unsurprisingly SmashU has outsold past games already cause it has so much.
It hasn't outsold Brawl and there's no reason to think it's going to. It's been out 8 months.
>Casuals respond to content not gameplay.
I never said they didn't respond to content.

shut the fuck up, look at your comment it's structured like a gay ass poem. Another shitter crying about not being able to perform a shoryuken, what a surprise.

Reddit has you so scared that you're afraid to put a space between complete thoughts. That's fucking pathetic

>They don't
'Kay. Prove me wrong.
>you've assumed that more casual gameplay is the only factor
No, I didn't. You're not even one sentence in and you're already wrong. Do you not know how a correlation works?
>Did DBFZ sell so well cause of the easier gameplay, or because IP, Graphics and content?
DBFZ is a horrible game to look at because what are you going to compare it to? I didn't look at it for a reason.
>Max wasn't saying if you dumb down the game it cannot sell
I didn't imply that he said that and I'm not saying that if you dumb down a game it will sell.
>but that the real reason a fighter does well lies elsewhere.
Perhaps the BIGGEST reason a fighter does well lies elsewhere. That's perhaps true. I wouldn't argue against that.

And I never did.

These are some really, uh, (((interesting))) counter-arguments you have for me, Yea Forums.

You

have

to

go

back

if you are an insectoid.
these arent aesthetic tattoos but tramp stamps.

You communicate like a soundboard with autism

>It hasn't outsold Brawl and there's no reason to think it's going to
Yes it has
vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros.

Then why did Rising Thunder and Fantasy Strike fail then?

I like Max, too. Even though he's a shitlib. And a kike. And kinda' soi. And he's from Commiefornia. And he hangs out with nogs. And he acts like one, too. And he thinks video games can't be played with a mouse and keyboard.

...shit, maybe I don't like him after all.

Hey look you made a sentence without fingering the enter key.
Was that so hard?

When it comes to fighting games, he's right.

No, its important for games to be easy accessable if they want a new audiance. Just look at quake champions for example (not a fighting game but it fits the principle). The skillentry is literally so high that the game is on lifesupport for years. New players wont join the game because the skillentry is so high that it will shoe the new players off, even actual fps players currently rather play overwatch because quake doesnt give them a chance.
Casuals dont care about competitive shit, they only want easy wins to get their dopamin fix. They want the feeling of "being good at a game". You cant let your game stay alive forever is all you do appealing to your same core audience. At some point the audience will leave and the game dies if they do nothing to get new players to join.

>Chat, of course i know WHO this Character is
>Its Naruto one piece from the popular Anime DARK Souls may cry: guns of the death Note

Least funny Person on the internet

>tfw no waifus with cultural/aesthetic as fuck tattoos
Fuck my boner for culture stuff

>The truth is though that whether it is the most simple game ever or super complex, casuals don't really care and buy stuff cause of other factors.

that logic will eventually make out the state that the genre is just existing thanks to characters and other factors outside gameplay, and if that is true, except for one or two titles, it will be that fighting games will always be niche, which these nerds have been trying to change. you are just admitting the way in which the genre is dying.

anyway, I dont think it is the general principle at all. there are a lot of games that people play simply due to the gameplay, not other factors such characters, and fighting games are not exception as well. that it is just not done by a right way doesnt mean it does not exit.

Casuals wont even play versus other humans so it's pointless to design gameplay around them.

All the single player features are what they do in fighting games.

>DMC5
Did you mean SFV?

Oh. Why doesn't vgchartz have these sales? Now I have to run all those numbers again...

There are lots of variables as to why a game may succeed or fail. I don't understand what we're doing right now. How old are you? Serious question.

speaking of max, he's gonna cosplay as cloud's crossdressing costume

Attached: aww yiss.jpg (125x125, 3K)

I hate his friends they're like all Woolie tier hypemen but boring

>because everywhere I look, the opposite appears to be true.
You clearly know very little about your examples though, you think BB and GG are exactly the same game despite not playing very similar at all. Also failing to prove any sold better from being simplified

>FFXI was considered "hardcore," for whatever's that worth. FFXIV is normalfag shit.
But this is a very bad example as XIV was a huge failure on launch, and that wasn't just because it tried to keep the series hardcore but then had to dumb it down. They didn't get people back by making it simpler, but making a better looking game with a lot of content that they actually wanted to do.

> some Smash games sell better than others and this is negatively correlated with skill
Yes you went on a nonsensical rant in an attempt to prove skill when you didn't even have the right numbers.

>It hasn't outsold Brawl
Man you didn't even google this huh? Almost like you are pulling ideas out your ass.

>I never said they didn't respond to content.
But the whole point is they do respond to it more. You've actually got to prove that is was directly the gameplay being dumbed down

>Casuals dont care about competitive shit, they only want easy wins to get their dopamin fix
This, but not quite. I'm tired of seeing people demonize casuals as some type of simplistic troglodyte yearning for instant gratification. Those people do exist, but the majority of casuals who get fighting games are genuinely interested in playing these games, but they prefer to play with friends and family. To casuals, most fighting games are essentially party games which they can break out when they have guests around, or are going to a party with people who'd be down to play, or have friends they can play against online. They like to play against people at their own skill level, slightly above, and slightly below. This is why smash is popular. This is why casuals don't drop smash. They don't play online against randos and go to meetups. They just want to have fun. Give them a fun, easily accessible game, and they'll give you money, and they'll keep playing it too. And you can do that and still have depth. Plenty of fighting games have done this in the last decade - Tekken, Soul Calibur, MK, Smash...

I just don't like the fact he is acts like he is some elite fighting game player when all he ever does, or show on his YouTube page is him wailing on butt fucking retards. I don't think I have ever seen him, on his steam or YouTube play against someone other than his friends that were remotely on his level. Which isn't that high to begin with, just blatantly better than the average joe online.

>DBFZ is a horrible game to look at because what are you going to compare it to
lmao, everyone was jerking of how DBFZ looked. There were loads of videos on how it directly captured manga panels and got the style of the series so right. You could also compare it to Xrd, as obviously it is an advancement of the same technology they were using there.

Are you ESL?

graphically it looks great but user is probably referring to actually watching people play it

my brain says no and my penis also says no

Max is a shill but he also knows quite a few things about fighting games. Most of his Real Talk clips are spot on and this one isn't exception.
I liked how he brought up that accessibility is bad only when it affects high level gameplay.

Also:
>people bringing FPS and other genres into discussion
You do realize he was talking only about fighting games, right?

Your dood there isn't known for being good or knowledgeable about fighting games in the competitive sense. When you ask a tournament competitor what they think of Max or if they'll play against Max they'll respond that they like Max. That's it, they like him, but they can't really respect them.

He is right though that fighting game accessibility is a myth. Many games sell the illusion of doing well at the game with simple repetitive mechanics. Simplifying the game wont help as much as adding a story mode and costumes does. So in that sense he's sort of in the right direction with his assessment. Look at the change with SFV when it came out and the reactions it got. The fact that they lowered the skill ceiling had them called retarded by the best tournament players. The fact they didn't have a fleshed out storymode and side content got them blasted by the casuals.

Even a guy like Max can do pretty well in fighting games in casual matches, so if people can't get on his level it's because they can't be bothered and don't care much about the game. It's a niche but they shouldn't change it to please people that don't care about those games.

He is literally repeating the Same Shit the people before him Said
Mainly momochi and Ultradavid/James Chen WHO He is qouting in the beginning
this Video is Just to Push His fightan credibility

But he wasn't. He made a very clear point that progression in a fighting game should emulate what is found in other video games, not on a mechanical level, but by mastering the game's mechanics over time. He cites God of War as a example. It is perfectly acceptable to compare other genres to fighting games to discuss this talking point. Did you even watch the video?

Rising thunder was a success. It died because Riot bought it out. Up until the day it died, it had active online.

He doesn't act like a big shot fighting game player in my opinion, but he does think he's an expert on topics he isn't that well-versed in. For a KI "fanatic", he sure as fuck can't commentate it or show that he can really explain the game well.

You posted a lot of correlations but no causations.
>1
This can be explained through people being drawn in by the story or waifufags
>2
Brand recognition and superior marketing strategies
>3
A retarded comparison that ignores the history of MMOs. A better comparison would be Everquest and WoW, but even though that was also seen as a casualization of gameplay the massive leap in popularity can be attributed to Blizzard’s massive prexisting fanbase
>4
lol I’m not reading that austistc shit but if you want to talk about Smash then Brawl’s massive success can be attributed to the fact that the Wii sold double that of the Gamecube and Wii U combined

>that logic will eventually make out the state that the genre is just existing thanks to characters and other factors outside gameplay
Why? Causals not making a purchase based on complexity doesn't mean they can't enjoy the gameplay and eventually learn more. It is a question of what gets people in the door first, which is true for any genre. Once they are inside they need some meat to chew on otherwise they will get bored and move on. Which is where the casual fighter falls down, but a more complex fighter can win out. What we need is a marriage of the two, a game with casual appeal (graphics, story modes, brand, etc) but complex gameplay that actually gets someone invested once they start playing.

>there are a lot of games that people play simply due to the gameplay
You really should watch the video cause you are missing the point so hard.

With casuals i mainly talk about the "competitive gamer" casuals you usually see in ASSFAGGOT games grieving for elo. The casual partygame bro is totally fine. So guess i agree

Rising thunder bought by riot to make a lol fighting game. That's success.

>to make a L OMEGALUL L fighting game
Fixed it for you

>You do realize he was talking only about fighting games, right?
no one cares whether or not how legitimate a game that they are going to play is fighting games in the way in which FG nerds define the genre. comsumers just play a game for fun. if FPS is being so intuitive compared to fighting games, then it it just that they will never have to feel liking these games. you are a part of the problem, and thats the reason why developers/publishers do not listen to your voices.

You're mixing up accessibility and complexity. Making fighters more accessible is okay, making inputs easier and having better tutorial features. But ripping out parts of games won't do anything to make them stick around.

Casual players may not care about competitive shit, but they like to at least bob around in the pool and see cool shit happen. Playing Tekken with your friends and finding all sort of moves you didn't know existed was always a blast. It felt like discovering secrets. Now the modern idea of simplifying fighters would be take all these moves out and just make it so you can mash either 1 or 2 and get all the moves. That is kinda fun for a while, but very quickly they see everything the game has to offer for them. Then if the game isn't full of characters and single player it is pretty much over.

>you think BB and GG are exactly the same game despite not playing very similar at all. Also failing to prove any sold better from being simplified
I know BlazBlue is the simpler one. Everyone knows that. They're the ArcSys games, one's famous for being technically complicated, while the other one's dumbed down for casuals. This is common knowledge.
>But this is a very bad example as XIV was a huge failure on launch
That's meaningless because "that game" doesn't exist anymore.
>and that wasn't just because it tried to keep the series hardcore but then had to dumb it down
You're strawmanning me again. I never said anything like this.
>They didn't get people back by making it simpler, but making a better looking game with a lot of content that they actually wanted to do.
That means nothing to this discussion.
>you went on a nonsensical rant
Excuse me. I actually use data to prove my point. I know you're unfamiliar with things like logic, reasoning, empirical evidence, the scientific method. I don't know what mudhut you immigrated from, but this is how we learn things about the world.
>you didn't even have the right numbers
I didn't have updated numbers for Ultimate sales. Now I do! And the correlation is even stronger in my favor, it's -0.3. Thank you!
>Man you didn't even google this huh? Almost like you are pulling ideas out your ass
"Ideas?" You sound like some spearchucker criticizing the white man for thinking he can make a metal bird fly. I got my numbers from vgchartz, which wasn't updated for whatever reason. You're right that I didn't Google Smash sales, I Googled ALL video game sales.
>But the whole point is they do respond to it more
That's probably true. Like I said, I wouldn't argue against that.
>You've actually got to prove that is was directly the gameplay being dumbed down
No, you small dumb child, I don't need to prove anything. I ran a correlation. It's -0.3. Max's hypothesis was that it was between -0.1 and 0.1. It's not.

>Smash has basically been the same game everytime
>parry
>final smash charging

I really like this new age of simplified fighters. I can make my character do what I wanna do when I want instead of grinding an input a million times in the training room til it is burned into my brain. I can focus on spacing and strategy. And it also makes it easier to switch between several fighting games.

Attached: oohthatfeltgood.png (355x355, 148K)

He is missing one crucial point. Simple mechanics keep people playing. Sure mechanics will not be the things that attracts a casual player but when they realize how many months they will need to spend grinding before they will be able to play the game they bough properly, it will cause a massive fall off. More casual mechanics, ability to shift the blame for losses all get the more inexperienced people to stick around.

>This is common knowledge.
Yeah you’ve never played either

How is it so hard to only nerf OP characters and buff low tier characters greatly? Always buff way more than nerf

Holy fuck, is a clone of me typing these "arguments"? There is a negative amount of points being made/refuted in this post that it couldn't even puncture wet toilet paper, and it's topped off by "HAHA I SMART BECAUSE I THROW NUMBER PULLED OUT OF ASS"

Attached: UHHHHHHHH.jpg (473x356, 13K)

>it's how much the biggest earner in playing that game competitively has won divided by how much was won by the player in the 90th percentile for earnings. This variable is a proxy for skill.
How is earnings a proxy for skill? That makes absolutely no sense, many games have very small prize pools so that is going to fuck the numbers completely. Games also don't distribute a prize pot evenly, smash is known for being way more fair and even with how the money is given out. Your retarded ass method would put games like SFV at the highest skill point as there are huge prizes for first place and a less even distribution. We don't even have that data for most smash games so you couldn't make any real comparisons.

it's cool user. wasn't necessarily calling out you, just used your post to make my point. Make no mistake, the "competitive casual" certainly exists, even in fighting games, and they are the ones that get talked about the most because they are always the most vocal, but they are not representative of the millions of people who actually end up buying whatever game. I have friends who are casuals who I still regularly play SFIV with, have only really played it against me, and against each other - and guess what, they liked to learn the game mechanics and they still have fun without being pro or playing ranked. They can't hit 1-frame links and can't hit confirm FADC into Ultra but that has not stopped them from having fun or even beating me fairly from time to time. These are the majority of casuals who are playing fighting games, and they are what the market needs to satisfy to stay alive.

>He is missing one crucial point.
He actually went over that. Someone might complain online man I hate 1 frame links so much I'll never get good. But SF4 entrant numbers grew every single year. If you like a game enough you will grind that shit out. Casual mechanics get tiring and will be as much a source of complaints. I've seen more complaints about vtriggers than I have about 1 frame links at this point.

>I know
Oh well please detail why.

>duuuhhh you're a virgin cuz you don't find ugly mold-colored children scribbles on women hot

>Casual mechanics get tiring and will be as much a source of complaints. I've seen more complaints about vtriggers than I have about 1 frame links at this point.
The thing about v-triggers is that they were already implemented in KI, but KI's instincts were pretty much given standing ovations. So, I think the issue with mechanics are the implementation than it is the existence of them.

I both agree and disagree with him about 1-frame links in SF4. My inability to reliably do them definitely limited my ability to play as certain characters who were very dependent on them. I originally played Vega and had a very tough time winning in SF4 because it was very hard to get the damage you need out of the opportunities you get without them. However he is right about not being able to do 1-frame links is not why the majority of people lose in SF4. Hell, I flat out switched to Dan and could win reliably with good fundamentals and basic as fuck combos a lot of the time. Once I got the hang of that, I started to do the same with Vega too, but it still was a hell of a lot harder because I couldn't take full advantage of the character. Being able to have that timing down to 1/60th of a second comes naturally to some and others will have to work for it. But you can't just ignore that there are people who don't have those motor skills and never will for various reasons. A mechanic like that seems to ask an awful lot of people if you ask me.

>everyone was jerking of how DBFZ looked
Anecdotal evidence.
>There were loads of videos on how it directly captured manga panels and got the style of the series so right
Anecdotal evidence.
>You could also compare it to Xrd, as obviously it is an advancement of the same technology they were using there
Wow, genius. Yes, let's compare the team-based fighting game inspired by one of the most popular IPs of all time to a different fighting game which sells to a niche audience. I am sure that is a totally fair comparison and brand recognition won't play a part at all!
>Are you ESL?
No, unfortunately, I can only spank you in one language.

>You posted a lot of correlations but no causations.
You can't prove causation, it can only be inferred.
>This can be explained through people being drawn in by the story or waifufags
You can say that and you'd have zero evidence to support it. I can say people prefer BlazBlue because people like the color blue! Whoa! I'm making science!
>Brand recognition and superior marketing strategies
Okay, show it. ... Oh, you're not going to do that? Oh, that's funny...
>A retarded comparison that ignores the history of MMOs. A better comparison would be Everquest and WoW
Comparing two MMOs made by the same developer sharing the same name and brand icons is a retarded comparison, but comparing two MMOs made by different developers with completely different audiences makes sense. I, well...I dunno, I'd like to say this is the dumbest thing said in the thread, but it's hard fought.
>lol I’m not reading that austistc shit
yeah numbers are tough lol i eat crayons
>Brawl’s massive success can be attributed to the fact that the Wii sold
Yeah, that's fair enough, you need to have a console to play on a console, but people buy consoles FOR the games on it. So, that's kind of redundant.

>The implementation
Which is where SFV really dropped the ball. For most characters, V-Triggers felt more like what the character should be at their base, not a limited special mode. Prime example being everyone is pissed that Karin's rekkas are V-Trigger only.

>Causals not making a purchase based on complexity doesn't mean they can't enjoy the gameplay and eventually learn more.
if this logic is true, then fighting games players base would have been increasing more and more as time has been going, but it did not happen as far as we observe, and publishers/developers think the same thing so they have been trying to make a change.

>Which is where the casual fighter falls down, but a more complex fighter can win out.
that is the myth as I said above. mere complexity does not define the degree of fun and freedom/variety of gameplay. FPS is simple and intuitive to the point where an elementary school kid can play it as he wants just after playing it for one hour, but no one says that the gameplay does not have variety and it is not difficult.

Eh, he's still a very chill dude, he enjoys titties in videogames and doesn't freak out about dumb shit being problematic.

>Simplifying gameplay doesn't bring in more sales

I'm sorry to sat this but he is provably wrong about this. The reason AAA development costs have been ballooning over the years is because ROI has been increasing at a steady rate as games have become more and more simplified, and this is because around 2007 developers started to shift focus towards Player Retention. Basically the new understanding was that the vast majority of players in singleplayer seemed to quit at around the 20% completion mark, and in multiplayer or MMOs most players would drop off after around 20-30 hours or so, which isn't nearly long enough to sell them on all the extra content your game has. So after a lot of discussions and internet thinkpiece articles, AAA devs started finding the best ways to engineer their games to keep players hooked for long long periods of time.

The main inhibitor of player retention was hitting brick walls, or points where the majority of playtesters would give up because they represent the most basic bitches of society. This was combated majorly by the likes of Infinity Ward (with Modern Warfare), Naughty Dog (with the first Uncharted), and Valve (with Portal 2 and HL2:EP2, which are both famously criticized for dumbing down their level design to account for retarded playtesters), which set the example for AAA devs going forward.

By making games just easy enough while feeling super rewarding, devs have put millions of average schmucks on that skinner box hamster wheel that keeps them playing and consuming more content for consumption's sake. And judging by the insane budgets of modern games, eclipsing $500k in some cases, I'd say the ROI is pretty high for games that make themselves more and more accessable and "retentionable" rather than complex and challenging.

It's a hard truth to reconcile with but making good challenging games just doesn't return nearly as much profit as dumbing them down. And AAA publishers always follow the money.

Attached: 1509611100860.jpg (462x579, 25K)

t. shill

>soul calibur 2
Tekken 3 was like this too.
You had cheese characters, high skill characters, a few modes and aesthetics for everyone.

he specifically talked about fighting though, you dumb reddit nigger

>then fighting games players base would have been increasing more and more as time has been going
You aren't making much sense. The casual is not brought in by the complex gameplay, the complex games often do a bad job at having the extra things that appeal to casuals. The casual is brought in by the extra stuff like graphics, but the over simplified gameplay gives no one a reason to stick around. What we need is more games with both content and complex gameplay.

>that is the myth as I said above.
You said the exact opposite above
>there are a lot of games that people play simply due to the gameplay

I don't need to. My personal experience doesn't matter.

The sweet smell of butthurt.

>How is earnings a proxy for skill? That makes absolutely no sense
Better players earn more money on average. Did I really have to say that?
>many games have very small prize pools so that is going to fuck the numbers completely
Except it won't and I said why.
>Games also don't distribute a prize pot evenly, smash is known for being way more fair and even with how the money is given out
Literally doesn't matter.
>Your retarded ass method would put games like SFV at the highest skill point as there are huge prizes for first place and a less even distribution
Well, should I ask you, then? Tell me, omnipotent user, rank the Smash games from 0-10 in terms of skill level. Surely, your opinion is just.
>We don't even have that data for most smash games
What does this even mean? We don't have the data for, what? We have data for hundreds of tournaments. Is hundreds not good enough for you? Tell me what arbitrary number we have to hit before it's good enough. Please, right from your ass.

And as a final note, I just ran SFV for your sake: it got worse than any Smash game. So, no, even when you try to flame me, you're just fucking wrong, user.

There is a difference between making anyone is able to complete a single player campaign, and making them stick around for a long time. Plus look what these AAA games put money into. Huge ad campaigns, amazing graphics, some famous actor and shit like that. Marketable stuff, not look at how easy and basic or game is which is what many modern fighters lead with.

>mk
>solid gameplay
PFFFTTAHAHAHAHAHA

his main audience is mostly old people. Children can't make $10k donations. The reason he's so friendly and neutered now is because of his sponsors. He has to be positive about everything to help promote anything. Very rarely you'll see someone younger than 25-30 playing a fighting game unless it is MK because the violence lures in the children.

Attached: 234235.jpg (355x265, 29K)

The fact that MvCI has the best gameplay of the past decade and but is now dead speaks volumes about how much people give a shit about actual gamplay.

>>I know
>Oh well please detail why.
What. What are you referring to?
>I know you're unfamiliar with things like logic, reasoning, empirical evidence, the scientific method.
That's the only time I said "I know." You want me to detail why you're unfamiliar with those things? Okay: you have a room temperature IQ. I got your back, user.

One of his biggest donors is a Saudi prince.

Not even just V-triggers and moveset "streamlining". I think the casualization of neutral hurt casual play a lot.

>The casual is brought in by the extra stuff like graphics, but the over simplified gameplay gives no one a reason to stick around.
look at guilty gear. complexity did not contribute to the purpose of making casuals play it longer at all. because casuals stop playing it just after beating the story mode or trying to learn it struggling to adopt that complexity like spaghetti code.

>You said the exact opposite above
its not the opposite at all, retard. what I am saying is people are playing due to gameplay that is being intuitive and easy to get into, not the one of a game that is constructing on the nerds' stupid notion that mere complexity defines the fun and variety of the gameplay. they are still playing a games due to gameplay thinking its gameplay is not fun at all for them.

yeah and a horrible roaster, graphics and animations.

MvCI gameplay sucks, changing the entire control scheme killed it

It sold well because the switch has no games.

Max would probably love Arcana Heart if he ever gave it a serious chance and could get over it all being cutesy girls.

>look at guilty gear
A game that lacks a big brand, story mode is a movie and launch with a very small roster of characters. Wow, look a game that doesn't qualify for what I said. Casuals didn't stop playing after story mode cause they never picked it up in the first place.

> what I am saying is people are playing due to gameplay that is being intuitive and easy to get into
You didn't say that, but site examples. What fighters are lasting a long time and even growing cause the gameplay is so easy to get into and is in fact a very simple game. Keep in mind the point with this was originally that these games did that on gameplay alone
>I dont think it is the general principle at all. there are a lot of games that people play simply due to the gameplay, not other factors such characters
So very simple game, which lacks content that has had a long life.

I struggle to think for myself & everyone else says he shills so Im gonna go with shilling

He's 100% right.

MvCI was a better playing game than DBFZ but it lost against it due to shit presentation and content.

Oh fuck off, MVCI had garbage gameplay and balance. I hate this fucking meme that MVCI was a tragic game with great gameplay, that game that made pressure strings go on forever because you can tag in to make pressure safe; stones weren't equally balanced, Space, Time and formerly Reality before the nerf were always the go-to stones. Dante and Dorm were hilariously broken, with Ultron Gamorrah closely second. The entire game should've stuck to 3v3 without dumb X-factor scaling and TAC infinites.

so basically what he's saying is, rosterfags are in the right.
based. cutfags need to die.

Attached: k rool chad.jpg (1024x936, 90K)

Momochi and Tokido had a far better talk about the desire to make fighting games easier. They talked about how they don't understand why that makes it fun for someone, and feel that it makes it even harder for the new players to overcome the old players because they'll never learn the lessons old players did while also putting less restrictions on old players via execution.

Either way Max is a fucking fraud who's shit at fighting games and regularly dodges skilled players when they challenge him.

>GBFV hype
>completely died
Are you actually daft? Once the JP pros figured out that you had extra links that could be done just outside proximity range for more free form combos that wouldn't be canceled by autos they started getting excited for more.

>Once the JP pros figured out that you had extra links that could be done just outside proximity range
That was straight up mash 2L into a special. You have to fight so hard to avoid the autocombos in this game, and up close you can't avoid them with standing normals

>got away with saying nigger
Definitely /ourdood/

Source it.

Companies just need to accept fighting games will not be FPS tier popularity.
They by their very nature require a lot of fucking time and effort to get good enough to enjoy it outside of locals with friends.

Just how it is, move on.

You really weren't paying attention to the end of day two JP streams were you? 2L 2L into special was literally the first night. They were already past that into M M H resets outside auto proximity by the end of the final night.

Post all these more complex combos then. This also doesn't avoid the fact you are battling not to do anything close up, a game that has to avoid getting close otherwise the combo variety plummets is pretty limited.

Fighting games are tough to learn because most of it takes place in the lab and most people don't want to punch a dummy AI for 100 hours.

If you're not good in a fighting game, you basically don't play, you can put your controller down and just watch the show to the same effect.

Stop treating the FGC and your e-celebs like they aren't complete normalfags and absolute casual sheep. They're no different than anyone else just because their preferred genre requires a little bit more skill, these retards will let everything non-popular or shit that doesn't earn them internet points on their social media feed pass like season passes, pre-launch DLC(SCVI), the whole MK multiple currency shit, day 1 DLC, mandatory upgrades like XRD's expansions which are just game patches that offer very little in terms of in-game content, bare bones features and continued jerking off of their favorite publisher like Bamco and preferred fighting game like Tekken when there's still no replays and so much more I'm forgetting. I really hope you FGC fags die in a car crash for letting fighting games become so shit.

Attached: angryfug.jpg (150x200, 20K)

>no one remembers the original YoVideoGames crew

It used to be him, Simmons, and the guy who play Leon Kennedy in the Assist Me videos. The 2 black guys came later when 1 of the original 3 left.

Attached: this is you.gif (450x253, 3.59M)

Its 10x more competitive than brawl or smash 4, your reactions are poor

>Fighting games are tough to learn

LITERAL CHILDREN played them in the 90s.

You're an idiot.

Choni ma

Ever wonder how much he pays them? To be his friend?

>Wow, look a game that doesn't qualify for what I said.
guilty gear Xrd's first trailer was really gathering big attentions from casuals thanks to its cel-shading anime-like graphics, and it was the title that has sold most in the series, retard. so how many casuals who bought the game due to its unique graphics and hype surrounding it are still remaining to play it thanks to its complexity. well, maybe a few portion added into the tiny fanbase, but it is obvious that its not a game changer at all. 99% casuals who bought it stopped play it.

>You didn't say that
sorry, I am saying the same thing. consumers play a game due to gameplay, which means consumers choose a game depending on whether a game that they are going to play is fun or not. no one said people play a game even though they feel its gameplay is not fun at all for them.

>What fighters are lasting a long time and even growing cause the gameplay is so easy to get into and is in fact a very simple game
what comes to mind is always smash, but you will say it is just thanks to its abundance of contents. but thats not true at all considering MK has been selling well but most casuals stop playing it after beating the story mode unlike smash.
anyway, as I said above, that the perfect example still does not exist does not mean it cant be done at all because they are still in the path of trying to find the best way.

>So very simple game, which lacks content that has had a long life.
I said above, but you still do not seem to understand: mere complexity does not define the fun and freedom/variety of gameplay. street fighter 2 is very simple compared to modern fighting games, but that game is still being played by many people around the world.

Wanting to get into fighting games is like wanting to get into counter strike.
The community has been around long enough that the only people part of it are so above you that it takes a year to be able to put of a fight before they kill your ass.
The difference being that counter strike is one game and other fps games are allowed to exist outside it's autism bubble.
With fighting games that's not the case, the games need to stay the same so that the skills the autistic fanbase has developed remain relevant, because otherwise the developer risks having the game not played by anyone.

They weren't good at them though