Reminder that indie games are just objectively better versions of retro games...

For 8bit platformers maybe

but goddamn if some retro games don't just have that nostalgic/childlike quality to them that makes you keep coming back

I rarely see soul in indie games. Mostly it's just smug self-congratulatory pretentiousness.

Here's a good starting point. Play all these games first and then talk.

N++
Return of the Obra Dinn
Velocity 2X
Trackmania Turbo
Trials Fusion
Factorio
Into the Breach
Hyperlight Drifter
Dead Cells
Shovel Knight
Spelunky
Hotline Miami 1+2
Thumper
Super Meat Boy
The Binding of Isaac
The End is Nigh
Terraria
FTL
Geometry Wars
Nex Machina
Resogun
Dead Nation
Stardew Valley
Darkest Dungeon
Bastion
Ori and the Blind Forest
Crypt of the Necrodancer
Cuphead
Assault Android Cactus
Super Stardust HD
OlliOlli 1+2
Sine Mora
Rogue Legacy
Runner 2
Dyad
Hollow Knight
This is the Police
Furi
Don't Starve
Katana Zero
Door Kickers: Action Squad
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night

"""Proper modern games""" do not bother doing even that though.

Compare the hitboxes and controls of a good modern platformer like N++ or Super Meat Boy to pretty much any NES, SNES, PS1 game and they just blow them out of the water

I'm not talking about how they're made, I'm talking about how the gameplay is designed. As in most indie games have the same casual philosophy of not actually punishing the player for mistakes and just resetting them back a few seconds infinitely.
Super Meat Boy and N++ aren't good platformers.

Don't kid yourself, people noticed in Skullgirls.
Because it was so terrible in practice.

Reminder that the mechanics of retro games reflect technological limitations.
Reminder that indie games that rely on these mechanics are part of a cargo cult.

I don't think classical greek artists were even aware of cave paintings let alone aspiring to be like them.

>Super Meat Boy and N++ aren't good platformers.
cringe

Retro style games are an artform, it just so happens that most indie devs fucking suck at improving upon the concept and end up with derivative nonsense

I have yet to play an indie game that does super Mario bros 3 better than tezuka and miyamoto did.

Yeah, because they're using concepts an mechanics that were invented more recently. It's the evolved form. A bicycle made for Tour de France may be significantly better than a pig iron one made two centuries ago, but even a crappy car outclasses it in every way.

No what's cringe is pretending casual 2 second level bullshit is good gameplay.

Banjo-Tooie > Yooka-Laylee

Checkmate atheists

You mean the evolution of technique

Reminder that people work better when limitations are present, and grow worse as lack of limitations gives room for complacency.

Came to say this. Though it's also really stupid to compare wall drawings to canvas painting to pencil sketches. The only objectively acceptable comparison is between the first two panels, and within those two the older is clearly superior. It's a bit sad to see the person that drew this comic not understanding that. Or worse, knowing it and intentionally doing it.

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Oh, you are that same autismo who thinks that any game that has frequent checkpoints due to the design decisions of the developers means it's casual and simplified. The type of game that N++ and Super Meat Boy are is meant to be brutally hard and meant to make you learn the levels, that's why you don't have 10+ minutes between checkpoints because that would just greatly increase the tedium and frustration of the game while not changing the difficulty or fundamentals of the game. Some games are more balanced or add more tension with longer checkpoints, but there are also games where it makes sense to have short checkpoints with instant reloads.

You also cited HCU as an example of a checkpoint system done right when the game is significantly easier (and a worse game overall) than N++, Super Meat Boy, HLM2, etc. and can be easily beaten in arcade mode in one sitting, or even without dying (which I have done)

Yep, same guy as the above post. Can't fucking wrap your peanut brain around the fact that not every game is designed exactly the same and that shorter checkpoints with harder difficulty is not any more casualized or worse than longer checkpoints with easier difficulty; it's just a design decision with what the dev's vision for the game is.

indie devs games are fixing the fps genre, so yeah

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I played A Hat in Time and thought it was fucking dogshit and unfun in nearly every aspect. What is the hype with this game?

How does Yooka Laylee compare to AHiT?

>You also cited HCU as an example of a checkpoint system done right
I have no idea what the acronym is supposed to be.
>shorter checkpoints with harder difficulty is not any more casualized or worse than longer checkpoints with easier difficulty
Yes it is. You are expected to master less of the game and can effectively just learn one level through muscle memory without learning anything about the game's mechanics.

Graphics may be better but I really hate that flash game aesthetic that so many indies use.

In rare cases thats true, BallisticNG almost makes the old Wipeouts obsolete, not quite but its close. But in most cases it isnt, indie devs simply dont have the exprience, money and/or talent to match classic games. Something will always be lacking, either the games wont be as well designed, or the art/music will be worse, or they will feel more like demos than full fleshed out games. Then there are cases where its just baffling how indie devs managed to go decades without surpassing games from the 80s and 90s, such as with 2D beat em ups. The classics are all flawed and the games are fairly simple. Yet despite this the only good indie 2d beat em up is Fight N Rage.

It's worse.

Based Grug.

How come the NES Mega Men and Castlevania 1 and 3 absolutely BTFO any indie game inspired by them then?

All platformer games with very few exceptions (actually N++ is an exception regardless of checkpoint length) are based on mindless muscle memory.

Unless it is a randomly generated game where the in-game systems are intuitive and consistently logical and you are given unique systems that you must approach, then it is muscle memory. Which is why even the hardest platformer or shmup is a complete joke in difficulty compared to almost any PvP game, but they are still fun.

I am curious as to what you would consider a good platformer, as it is probably easier and and worse in quality than the games I outlined above.

>All platformer games with very few exceptions are based on mindless muscle memory.
Real platformers are not.
>I am curious as to what you would consider a good platformer
Mega Man is a good example of both a platformer better than any indie game and one that doesn't rely on muscle memory. This segment is challenging but clearly outlined ahead of time and can be beaten without any sort of memorization.

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Say what you want anons, I would have KILLED to be able to play terraria in the late 90's/early 0's

How does that internet blogger cock taste you retarded indie developer?

indie games are like your picrelated - will omit some crucial element because it would take too much effort (in case of picrelated - there should've been one contemporary artist instead of two, one renaissance, one medieval that's missing - too hard - and the caveman)
Meanwhile good retro games have production value through the roof
youtu.be/upd1gySmD0Y

Japan in the 90s stole every musical idea they ever had retard
Uematsu is the only exception

It doesnt involve muscle memory because its an incredibly easy simple challenge, and it has no depth on top of that once you solve it once its done, theres no tricky timing or execution involved.

desu the best design is to just combine both. Have a level based mode where you perfect small chunks and have a proper arcade style mode which introduces an element of endurance and tests consistency. Shmups already do this with practice modes, you can spend hours practicing a single boss or level like you would beat a level in meat boy style precision platformers but you do it within the context of having to do a full run which by its nature demands consistency.

Nevermind I'm dealing with a complete brainlet who seems to be elitist about mainstream retro games. There is literally no functional difference between this and any other platforming level in a modern indie. They all give you signs and signals for how you should approach certain situations, and that is actually one of the main features that Team Meat wanted when the developed SMB, they wanted to slowly introduce new mechanics and let the player learn them and in what situations they would be appropriate. Light world are learning stages, while dark world are application stages.

The Mega Man games are also quite a bit easier than many modern indies, so your only determinant for how casual a game is is the length between checkpoints I guess lmfao

>theres no tricky timing or execution involved
Yes there is. It's not the most difficult thing in the world, but it definitely requires timing and execution.
>so your only determinant for how casual a game is is the length between checkpoints I guess lmfao
That is a defining characteristic of casual gaming, not being punished for mistakes.

Holy shit, you don't actually believe that do you? Even when the games aren't , the best you're getting is a group of people aiming to replicate something older. Very few indie games have actual soul and aren't just people aping older games with a new coat of paint

>implying cave paintings arent the untimate form of art
Their paintings last thousands of years in a cave exposed to many elements while your gay ass paintings need to be redrawn every other decade

UNGA BUNGA ROCK STOP TOO MANY PEBBLES GRUG NO AFFORD ART SCHOOL

UNGA BUNGA BAIL OUT CAVESTUDENT FEDERAL LOANS NOW VOTE BUNGA SANDSTONE CAVEPRESIDENT

It's no point, he couldn't beat SMB so he had to rationalize that the game is unfair bullshit and refuses to understand that games have different design decisions.

You are punished for your mistakes. SMB has multiple kid levels with limited lives, has ironman runs for completing entire worlds without dying (which I have completed all of them), and a strong focus on speedrunning (both individual levels and overall) which focuses on consistency. As someone with extensive experience with platforming games, you just come off as a complete simpleton.

There are hundreds of really quality indie games made by passionate devs who just want to make a genuinely great game. You just haven't put any effort into looking beyond the surface mainstream ones.

Indie and retro games are garbage. Late 90s/the 00s is where it is at.

There is a fundamental difference though. The games of old were being made with desire to take the medium new place and to push the technological boundaries. They invented new genres and engines. Indie games don't try to push or invent shit, they wallow in the nostalgia, particularly graphical.

>As someone with extensive experience with platforming games
Oooo sorry I didn't realize I was speaking to an expert in casual indie games. Can you beat Battletoads in under an hour? Didn't think so.

>1980
>have spent decades working with programming and logistics, have to build every single thing you do from scratch over and over and over again, have to work with big teams not to get the work done faster but because it'd simply be impossible to do it solo without being some kind of omnipotent being
>skilled in classical art design, every single hair length line has days of thought put into it by multiple people and massive storyboards are used to logically calculate everything beforehand
>stories and mechanics are inspired by real world events which influence everyone's lives as they're pressed down hard by new and frightening concepts and requirements instilled by a growing society always on the edge of the next world-ending war

2010
>go on youtube and copy this guy's tutorials
>just copy older game's pixel style but since you're inexperienced and kind of lazy you just make it as simple as possible, as long as people can parse what it is it's fine

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Retro games had the backing of actual studios, employed by professionals. No indie game art will ever match the likes of SNK. You can compare today's indies with yesterday's Amiga and Speccy eurojank. The polish isn't there, and it shows.

They're usually worse in every way, especially level design, enemy placement, depth, writing, theme, et. al. (see: retro FPS, metroidvanias, shmups, citybuilders/tycoon games, isometric RPGs (underrail/atom/etc)

Tabled drawing bad! Paper better!
Because
Uh

A very minimal amount of execution and timing to the point of being doable first try by anyone who has a bit of experience with games, thats really not something that can be considered challenging at all. See this is the problem with the obsession with muh fairness defined as something being doable first try, you run into the reality that a challenge balanced around the players first try wont be much of a challenge at all. Hence the band aid of using a hypothetical superhuman as a test of whether something is theoretically doable first try or not. Which undermines the entire point since games like meat boy are 100% doable first try when using that standard since they always introduce the diff level design elements in a safe or semi safe environment and you can see all the threats well in advance. In practice though it doesnt matter because people arent robots so they wont react in time, wont understand the timing immediately and will have to practice and repeat, turning it into a test of muscle memory.

There is more games coming out simply because the barrier to entry is so much lower nowadays, so clearly the proportion of good games will be a bit lower. However, there are still many, many indie games that are some of the best, if not the best, in their respective genres, or that don't really have comparable retro games.

I wonder who is behind this post.

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this - though there are some really good exceptions out there (mostly when they try their own thing instead of immediately leeching off pre-existing formula + adding 1 (one) unique feature they think is an instant game-changer)

Fixed

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vocaroo.com/i/s0EkDdSP8xuN

>A very minimal amount of execution and timing to the point of being doable first try by anyone who has a bit of experience with games
No, it definitely requires more timing than that. Someone who plays platformers all the time might be able to do it first try, but just someone who plays games in general is likely to mistime jumping.

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I guess I can get behind this image if I'm to believe (contrary to what the image implies) that each of the upper three panels are actually talking about people skilled in that specific kind of art (computer; cartoon; paintings). And the caveman doesn't give a shit because caveman is not worried about what other cavemen are doing.

Just because the devs are passionate and want to make a good game doesn't mean they actually make a good game that isn't derivative. You don't honestly think people set out to make bad games, do you? Lots of licensed stuff is obviously phoned in no one would argue otherwise. Sure there are tons of great indie games, but there's also tons of garbage. Same with studio games. This mentality of indie games getting a pass due to perceived soul is the most stupid thing I've seen evolve over the past decade.

this.
Solbrain (formerly Shatterhand)
Power Blade 2
Shitload of Sunsoft games will blow the fuck out 90% of indie 2d trash from last 10 years

BAAAASED

I agree with you, but you need to play Rain World and Brigador
Some of them expand upon old concepts in more advanced, incredible ways, such as the two I just mentioned.

You cant seriously be recommending thumper to people
Dont play trackmania turbo play trackmania nations forever.

Thumper is a great game though. Trackmania Turbo is the best singleplayer/time-trial of the series.

Anyone using the term “casual” seriously probably only plays video games to make their e penis bigger. Guess what retard, most people who are PAYING for something just want something fun or relaxing, if you want to show off go play sports or get a job

>better graphics
Nope
>sound design
Nope
>animations
Nope
>physics
Definitely nope
>AI
Maybe
>mechanics
Nah
>controls
Nope
>and hitboxes
Maybe

This. Cavemen were not as retarded as people think.

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Not really, they just add a persistent gimmick on top of the old concepts.

I like it, but the average person won't.
same reason i wouldnt list everspace or house of the dying sun, despite them being fantastic games

>Late 90s/the 00s
tfw there will never be games as fun and unique as the ones from then.

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I bet you’re the same kind of person who thinks beating super mario bros without continues or warps is a serious test of character that any normal person would give a shit about or should give a shit about. Overbloating the importance of le vidya skillz is the only way you hopeless losers can deluded yourself into thinking you didn’t waste your life learning to get good at something that has zero real world benefits.

>i need things to be "better" for me to enjoy them

just say "I'm a softbrain easy-mode loser"

Sounds like someone's a little jealous.

Ah yes, because we all know being good at video games makes you a genius right? How hard is it to get through Yea Forumseddit’s thick skull that video game skills have zero translation to real life in any way?

if it's inaudible how can you hear it?

Just how hard are you going to cope in this thread over the fact that people are better than you at video games?

Sure, why don’t you post le fox and the grapes so I feel even more jealous of not being an obese transsexual who’s only redeeming quality is being halfway decent at a game made to be mindless entertainment for children. No amount of armchair psychology on your part will ever make video games matter

>No amount of armchair psychology on your part will ever make video games matter
Literally nobody ITT has said anything about games "mattering". You're just incredibly insecure about your lack of skills.

Because you can't hear sound from a comic, moron.

It's suggested by jealousy.

Well, if we're talking about actually impressive level of skill, like speedrunning, then that would give you a higher social standing within video gaming community. But the likes of him aren't good enough for that.

>speedrun autists
>higher social standing
There is a big difference between being skilled enough to be able to fully analyze and enjoy games, and literally spending 10,000 hours optimizing in some dogshit game that no one cares about.

the right word would be
>unintelligible
kind of like you

How hard you going to cope that you have gained nothing despite spending thousands of hours and thousands of dollars on vidya? You are a shill, this is how I was tricked into wasting time platinuming the first in the main three soulslike series, and it’s only a good deed to help other young anons not fall into the same trap. You however are a corporate lapdog, you have been trained since the arcade days to believe that video games matter, that it is your duty to put another quarter in the machine to “prove yourself” and that you need to ruin everyone else’s fun. This is why every single discussion on this board soulfag tier dick swinging. This is why a game as piss baby easy as botw is defended with the classic “y-you’re just mad cause your le bad” argument, you can’t fathom that anyone would dislike any game without being bad at it, because you are a cocksucker. Why don’t you let an entertainment medium be an entertainment medium, and not turn everything into a chore?

Yeah, that's your usual defense mechanism of mediocrity: those below me are losers, those above me are autists.

>muh skillz
lol kill yourself, no real person describes video game abilities as “skills”

So that hard, huh?

Such a retarded thread
Both retro games and indie games have a tiny amount of memorable titles, and then thousands of forgettable titles, even if they are objectively good. This is just shitflinging.

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What a pedantic argument. As if there's any inherit value in the word "skill".

Not him but lemme get this straight its his fault that youre a fucking retard who got baited into getting cheevos that are blatantly unfun grindy shit in games that have the depth of a puddle? Yikes senpai, consider it as a hard lesson and try not being a retarded insecure cunt next time

>95% of everything is bad
unironically /thread

I never said they were losers. I like being skilled at videogames because it allows me to fully appreciate them and I enjoy the challenge and the satisfaction of overcoming it. That is lost when you spend several thousand hours repeating the same thing. I'm sure some people genuinely enjoy this, but to me it honestly seems like mental illness.

Pic 3 knew that they were the masters. The entire movement consisted about being the mother fucking best.
Coming up with color combinations that mimic irl lighting, coming up with brush stroke techniques for materials, textures, style, correct anatomy and perspective -- all that kind of shit that we take for granted nowadays.

I.e. comic strip a shit.

This part really is genius

No it's true.
They focus on raw design instead of the shit that bogged down the industry like a bloated tumor.
I love a lot of the old games and indies I play way more than modern "good games"

Also some modern nintendo games, because they still do that sometimes like with BotW.

Yep. That's why I play them almost exclusively. AAA devs aren't vidya players and don't know the good shit.

Not everyone is like that, many people just like applying themselves and the satisfaction of completing something. My profiles are private and I don't brag or even mention any of my feats unless it is relevant to that specific discussion. My friends irl don't even know lol, it's just something I enjoy for fun.

Pretty worthless statement. Even the most niche of indie titles are the top 5%, I mean just look at the massive volume that comes through steam every single day.

Yes, hard enough to type out a paragraph, which i’m sure an illiterate subhuman like you would equate with a great deal of effort.Try criticizing any video game on Yea Forums that isn’t a leapfrog game and watch the thread devolve into fox and grapes shittery. It’s not about ego, it’s about shitheads ruining everything for a chance to impress daddy gamedev. And it makes sense that I would be easily pressured into as a literal kid considering that’s when I played video games, do you not see it as stupid how many people in their mid twenties to middle ages are calling for literal children to be hung from trees because they aren’t good enough at vidya?

Hmm... it’s a solid argument. It explains why I like indie games but not retro ones quite well.
Renaissance art took months or even years to complete, it’s not in any way comparable with traditional and digital animations, you idiot.

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Shit like shovel knight is a yes on almost all of that, debatable on mechanics and physics.
Dont be blind or do you just look at the shovelware trash indie games?

The second panel is fucking animation. Show me the painting level animations that existed in the past. Oh wait, you can't because they didn't you fucking inept retard.

>triggered "artists"
Get a real degree.

Shovel Knight looks like ass despite having none of the limitations of the consoles it’s emulating

This is true of basically the entire universe.
Think about how much shit is concentrated into one fucking planet right now.

>it’s about shitheads ruining everything for a chance to impress daddy gamedev
What in the actual fuck are you talking about?

New technology doesn't improve an artist's sense of style.

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Did you know that there's evidence of both crude stick figure drawing and forays into portrait drawing at around the same time in prehistory? Just like today. Some cave paintings from around 30,000 years ago are quite impressive because they look like studies. The men who painted them observed the animals and made good attempts at capturing the anatomy and even motion. They could be realists.

Completely wrong

It’s really not hard to follow, even if you disagree. Everyone on here needs to suck up to their favorite game developer as they’ve been trained their whole lives to do. They shit up every discussion, they shut down all criticism with “fox and grapes, fox and grapes” on repeat. It is demonstrably not a probably of people not being good at games, as even shitter game like botw get in on it. Then of course they back pedal if you do complete the game “lol we didn’t actually expect you to finish the game we just weren’t going to accept any criticism if you didn’t. And now won’t accept criticism because you have finished the game”. None of this should be hard to follow unless you are an ESL.

problem* not probably

>degree

Sorry don't have a fancy debt slip at all, I'm net positive tens of thousands of dollars on this whole art thing.

How does it look like ass? Whats wrong with it exactly?

shit, you're right - some of the cave stuff easilyb topples majority of medieval professional scribblings

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Your parents failed you more than anything, this site isnt meant for kids and nobodys going to make their posts kid friendly. And if youre an adult, its on you for taking blatantly hyperbolic exaggerated posts so dead serious and letting people ruin games for you

>the joke
>your head

Cave paintings are unironically more skillfully executed and aesthetically pleasing than 90% of all art

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I don’t like it

Oil paintings and digital animations ARE different trades, dumbass. You’re just as ignorant as the people who think computer engineering and electric engineering are the same thing.

It ain’t just this site user, if it was Dark Souls wouldn’t exist, that whole game took advantage of that mindset, despite not really being all that hard, just a dreadful atmosphere and good ad campaign. And despite that, any criticism leveled at the game was inevitably and exclusively met “u r a casual” or the like.

>Yea Forums has truly become a cave painting forum
It has come full circle.

The art from Chauvet cave in southern France shows off some of the best examples of long extinct animals like European lions, wild horses, European rhinos and aurochs. They paid attention to the form and structure of the animals and even depicted motion by adding extra limbs like you would in animation today. To me they look like something you might find in an artist's sketchbook today. Got to give credit where credit is due. And just like today, masterful works can exist side by side with crude unskilled drawings. There were some men back then that practiced their craft.

Lot of good games on this list

I mostly agree. Limitations can coax out extreme creativity from humans

Unironically cringe

Thats just how people work, almost nobody accepts criticisms of things they enjoy in a rational robotic manner, the rejection is just expressed in different ways, usually in ways most convenient in the given context. In the case of Souls trash its because a lot of "critics" are shitters who refuse to adapt to a very simple game and blame it instead of their lack of patience and abilityil. Its especially hard to distinguish actual players with sincere criticisms from angry shitters on an anonymous website, takes a bit of discussion. Either way none of this matters, ok someone called you a casual and dismissd your opinion, what difference does that make? Youd need to have a serious case of insecurity combined with a need to impose your views on people to actually do unfun shit just to force others to accept an opinion youre expressing.

>In the case of Souls trash

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Seething soulscuck

wow you somehow combined 2.5 buzzwords into one thought

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Quite a few of these games have had a sizeable budget (due to kickstarter) with a proper team working on it. It's not much different than smaller studios on the past.
Also, quite a few games on the list do not actually eclipse older games by any means.

Stardew Valley is not better than the best Harvest Moon/Rune factory entries that all came before it, there are better platformers than N++ and Super meatboy, and Bloodstained is not the best designed Castlevania and so forth.

Factorio is my weakness though.

Not him, you're saying they're trash, because they tell "shitters" to learn from their mistakes.
Why does that make them trash?

Indie games are cheap and disposable and nobody gives a shit about the individual games. They're lumped into a collective and sold as bundles because they can't stand on their own.

The most popular games are the best.

I meant the games are trash though the fans are trash too because theyre essentially zoomers who know fuck all about games and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and elevate anything the games do well into godlike status (the games arent challenging because challenging games are fun since they demand more concentration and end up being more memorable, oh no theyre challenging for an artistic purpose!) and come up with excuses for anything the games do poorly (running back to bosses being tedious? Thats to add tension like oldschool games, nevermind the fact that in oldschool games the tension came from uncertainty about getting back to the boss which is non existent in Souls since how easy to run back is). I could go on for ages really this fanbase is a giant tumor

>The most popular games are the best.
You mean like Minecraft?

Are you implying otherwise?

explain to me how drawing with a pencil and paper is clearly superior to using a graphics tablet and advanced software that grants you innumerable creative options.

It took months and years because those faggots were fucking idiots who couldn't afford a Wacom tablet lol

>I meant the games are trash
Oh, okay.

>the fans are trash too because theyre essentially zoomers who know fuck all about games and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and elevate anything the games do well into godlike status
No. If you're talking about either the fanbase here or generally, they're most likely not "zoomers" and don't try to venerate it as the game above all others, they just think it's a series of mostly good games that get "criticized" by morons, as you stated earlier.

>(the games arent challenging because challenging games are fun since they demand more concentration and end up being more memorable, oh no theyre challenging for an artistic purpose!)
If you're referring to the post the other guy made, he saying the atmosphere gives off a feeling of dread, which synthesizes with the challenge the game offers quite well.

>come up with excuses for anything the games do poorly
That depends on what point and how well it's argued.

>(running back to bosses being tedious? Thats to add tension like oldschool games, nevermind the fact that in oldschool games the tension came from uncertainty about getting back to the boss which is non existent in Souls since how easy to run back is).
You do understand that the trek back is the punishment for dying, right? And that the game is balanced around you figuring out a path to the boss that's as quick as possible, right?

>I could go on for ages really this fanbase is a giant tumor
I'd rather you not, if this is the level of argumentation that can be expected throughout.

ITT Yea Forums argues about taking a joke too seriously

Yeah I beat Hotline Miami today and it kind of sucks. It's like a 5/10 game. But I've played a couple decent indies that make up for the overrated, overhyped crap.

do you think system shock 1 is better off with its flight sim controls? if system shock 1 was made in the dark engine with controls similar to ss2 and thief, would it be a worse game?

All of you are missing the point so hard. This comic in particular is just a silly joke.

You can't compare a digital Illustration to a Renaissance era painting. One needs to be doen within a week, if not days at must, where the other one took months, if not years to be completed (The Last Supper, for example took literal years to be finished and over 30 layers of paint).

Have some perspective, they're just different markets. Some of the best professional artists today have the skill to draw like the old Masters (it's part of their training), but they dont have the luxury of being able to spend months in a single piece.

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i can't confirm nor deny this generalization. Some indies are pretty bad, some old games are pretty bad. Some are good, etc.

Firstly youve got no clue what Im referring to so dont make assumptions. The challenge comment refers to the common "its not challenging for the sake of challenge" comment that gets parroted by every miyazaki dick sucking chuckle fuck under the sun. Its not only blatanly wrong since miyazaki himself stated that that he designed the games to be sadistic (because he described himself as a masochistic player) but also works to undermine the inherent value of challenge in games.
The run back is an unnecessary punishment that adds nothing of value to the game, thats the point you tard. You see kid back in the day you had to actually play levels to get back to the boss dealing with each challenge directly which meant that you had to get good at the levels and potentially save up resources for the boss fight, it was a consistency check and an endurance challenge which was even more prominent in arcade games where this was applied to the whole game instead of a level. Because Dark Souls is poorly designed though this isnt a requirement, anyone can easily run past all enemies, its completely braindead since they have no proper tools to counter it and unlike say DMC it doesnt lock you into areas until you clear out enemies.

Also there we go with more nonsensical mental gymnastics, the game isnt balanced around figuring out a quick path. What does balance even MEAN in this case, that it makes all enemies braindead and incapable to stop you? That it gives proper risk vs reward comparable to regular combat? The fuck are you talking about? The game is really poorly designed if running back to the boss is a challenge devs kept in mind because not only is it piss easy, but its also actively discouraged with shit like elevators

Too bad indie games are being made by vocal retards and injected politics and faggots who have bought into "video games = art" meme and make boring cinematic shit

tablets ARE superior because you have infinite resources but infinite resources turn you lazy and make your stuff less detailed than on paper.

*looks at AAA games*
>my inspiration... :)

>completely missing the point that the older artist is more capable than the younger one
>instead changes it to an argument about digital vs. analog

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yeah this isn't even a good generalization.
While I think indies have the capability to be better than retro games the average certainly isn't that.

Honestly though, it's surprising what some of those older devs accomplished on old hardware and how little some of these indie devs accomplish on modern hardware.

though indie games aren't just "side scrollers" or "retro styled games". There's plenty of UE4 games, some of which are actually good. I look forward to the flood of UE4 games coming, both for the entertainingly bad ones and the few really good ones that will come out.

>They're lumped into a collective and sold as bundles because they can't stand on their own.
Literally only the bad ones. If a game dev has pride in their work they don't let it become another throwaway game in a humble indie bundle.

laziness is your own fault. plenty of animators and digital artists pour their heart and soul into their work, regardless of the fact that they use superior, easier-to-use technology. and you can be significantly more detailed with digital art since you can zoom in and adjust the canvas size however you choose. you can't infinitely jam your face closer and closer to a sheet of paper for finer detail.
how are artists from the early 1900s more capable than artists today?

The point of the comic is to show that you need to stop worrying about what people better than you were capable of, because in the end your work will end up being appreciated for what it is. That's why the Caveman painting is at the end, which, despite being crude, is still appreciated historically. The first guy is just some random shmuck who no one knows about, who thinks on about the great Animators he's inspired by, who think back on the great painters he's inspired by, and so on.
It shows that art not only evolves, but always has a place. Of course most artists are shit, and that will always be true, but that's not the point of the comics; it's showcasing that the old masters doubted themselves as much as an amateur does.

There's nothing to defend. It's a meaningless and vague statement and just because you say "objectively" doesn't mean you're being objective at all.

ever considered the ratio between people who pour their heart into stuff and people who "pour their heart into stuff"?

>drop a list of like 30 games
>anons cherrypick one or two bad ones and dismiss the rest
Good list user. No sense in convincing anti-indie retards though, the money they sink into consoles and AAA games has caused the world's most dire case of sunken cost fallacy.

>Firstly youve got no clue what Im referring to so dont make assumptions
Which is why I stated "if you're referring to".

>The challenge comment refers to the common "its not challenging for the sake of challenge" comment that gets parroted by every miyazaki dick sucking chuckle fuck under the sun.
Nobody says this.
Or, I don't say that, and nobody here says that.

>The run back is an unnecessary punishment that adds nothing of value to the game
It gives punishment for your failure to kill/circumvent the enemies.

> back in the day you had to actually play levels to get back to the boss dealing with each challenge directly
And it's evolved into having the player forming a strategy to minimize the time spent dealing with the mooks, oh wait, it's the exact same thing as those old games.
The difference being that the problem is one of knowledge of where exactly to go, not "kill everything to advance".

>Because Dark Souls is poorly designed though this isnt a requirement, anyone can easily run past all enemies
The reward for a slower advance through the level is the map that forms, leading you to find the quickest route to the boss from the spawn point.
Unless you want to claim you just run past everything straight away?

>Also there we go with more nonsensical mental gymnastics, the game isnt balanced around figuring out a quick path
It's literally what every area does you halfwit
>explore slowly, find items/routes to begin with
>find the easiest/fastest path to the boss
>repeat
I'm done responding to this simpering bullshit. That you can't distinguish between "mental gymnastics" and statements of fact on the games design is all I need.

no because that's not quantifiable and that's not something specific to our time. there were plenty of lazy narcissistic failures in art that no one's ever heard of. and there are even some we have heard of, like adolf hitler.

Okay retard

die

>be based caveman
>draw deer
>wow that was fun
>forget about deer
>friend see deer
>what that?
>deer
>wow! i do this to
>friend draw man
>what that?
>man
>wow!
>caveman all use art for fun and continue doing what they need to do to survive
in the future
>WAAAAAAAAAH IM SO SAD
>draws picture
>WAAAAAAAAAAH IM NOT AS GOOD AS THE GUY I FOLLOW ON TWITTER
>100000000 likes, subs, whatever fucking stupid social media bullshit
>THEY JUST DO IT TO MAKE FUN OF ME I AM SO A PUNISHED AND SAD ARTIST!
art fags are literally cancer and should be hung in the street

youtube.com/watch?v=ZVUyyHYkBHk

only good post itt

depends. take the recent trend of classic fps throwbacks. something like dusk is EASILY far better than any fps released in the 90s, its undeniable. but then you have something like hedon or strafe, which are just cheap throwbacks without much substance. i cant say the indie scene as a whole has the best reputation in my books

imagine getting this mad over a simple jokey webcomic

Nevermind that the physics are fucked and Megaman drops like a rock, faster than his jump decent.

>something like dusk is EASILY far better than any fps released in the 90s
nice bait

im angry about everything desu

pretty based

well, it obviously is specific to our time.
there are way more artists on the internet that people know of than when the internet didn't exist!

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Umihara Kawase > any indieshit platformer

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>Or, I don't say that
Congrats
>It gives punishment for your failure to kill/circumvent the enemies.
Wut? It gives an unnecessary amount of punishment for failure to kill bosses, runbacks arent that good for regular enemies unless youre really familliar with the leashes. Its unnecessary because its too easy and presents almost no challenge or engagement
>And it's evolved into having the player forming a strategy to minimize the time spent dealing with the mooks, oh wait, it's the exact same thing as those old games.
No its devolved into that because fighting mooks actually has challenge, risk and depth, not much since its souls shit bht still. Dealing with a challenge is more engaging than circumventing it and just running past everything with maybe a couple of roles here and there. In older games going faster was actually more difficult, not less which is how it should be.
>The difference being that the problem is one of knowledge of where exactly to go, not "kill everything to advance".
Yeah so you replace planning and skill that goes into dispatching enemies and dealing with levels with a simplistic obvious route back to the boss. Laughable.
>The reward for a slower advance through the level is the map that forms, leading you to find the quickest route to the boss from the spawn point.
Its not a reward because rushing past everything blind isnt a valuable option to begin with, thats why Im starting with the assumption that the player already has cleared the level out normally, died at the boss and is using his knowledge to run back which is a mindless unnecessary process. Come the fuck on, dont be such a mong. I mean my standards for soulsfags are low already but this is unreal. And presenting this dribbling mental midget shit as "facts"...embarrassing.

based

Reminder that AAA games are just objectively better versions of indie games. A focus on gameplay but with better graphics, sound design, animations, physics, AI, mechanics, controls, and hitboxes.

Only good game in this list is Terraria. And I have beaten 70%+ of this list. I haven't played cumstained yet.

UK is mostly made by like 3 dudes, itd be considered an indie game now despite the publisher

*speaks in movie scripts*
nothin' personnel. also thanks for giving me control over myself. you must never do anything.

Terraria has some of the worst combat in existence, fuck off with that shit

I wouldn't go that far, but it becomes kind of retarded in hard mode once you ignore the existence of any kind of terrain.

>AAA
>A focus on gameplay

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Well a 'retard' just made you mad enough to defend a video game anonymously, by stating an opinion. Unless you're the developer of Hotline Miami then get fucked nerd.

I've had no problems using boomerangs, yoyos, swords, what is your gripe exactly with the combat? Or are you just bad

its not bait, the shareware model encouraged deminishing quality as the episodes released. even what i would consider the best fps of its time, the original blood is nowhere near the solid package that dusk is

No impact what so ever, spammy, braindead enemies, tons of cheese, hugely influenced by gear, not a single thing about this combat system is fun or rewarding you either kill shit with no effort or you find some cheese and then kill shit with no effort

yeah, early game on expert mode is fun but hard mode is kind of a chore.
I don't know why they don't have more enemies that morph the terrain. I kind of wish the enemies would destroy blocks more often or generate blocks to block you.

>spammy
imo that's my biggest grip with Terraria, you can't stay anywhere more than 5 seconds with the game starting to spam shitloads of enemies. And it's not that difficult to kill them, it's just incredibly annoying, specially when trying to do precise work.

I don't think the devs thought about the combat system much, they just made something simplistic and then kept adding more and more weapons and items to it with no sense of purpose or elegance. In short, endless feature creep instead of solid core design.

It's easy to be great when you stand on the shoulders of giants. The person who did the initial work will always be remembered as being better because they did it first.

Then how come we don't remember the name of the inventor of fire?

Do you really not see the difference in skill between being able to draw an anthropomorphic rabbit freehand and Loomis-ing simple shapes? Are you actually mentally handicapped?

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We do. His name was fire.

I'd add Dustforce, DUSK, Cities Skylines and Lethal League.

Yeah we got dusk, strafe, devil daggers, ion maiden, amid evil, and that one that looks like doom but with 16 sprite rotations, forgot the name though

But did cavemen ever draw anything fappable?

Anyone who like AAA and hates indie is a fucking retard end of story.

I play a bit of both. But indie or AA is where most of the real good games are these days.
Great list. Try Valdis Story and Dungeons of the Engless if you haven't.

Well we don't remember the name of the man who invented names!

do we have to pay copyright fees to the guy that invented names???

Tell me an indie game better than Chrono trigger.

Yes but you do have to take into account inflation, remember that money 300 000 years ago don't have the same value today.