How do we stop Crunchiness and bad labor practices in the videogame industry?

BASED
cringe.

based. fuck women, then discard.

video games.

It's funny because with crowdfunding and digital distribution there's literally no excuse other than they really like the taste of publisher cock.

Stop buying AAA $60+$30season pass garbage full of micro transactions with $150mil marketing campaigns that work the devs to death to break even

FpBp

teenie weenies

Unions have basically been busted permanently in America. Even the people that would benefit the most from them will say they are terrible and very often say something along the lines of "unions used to be good at some undefined point in the past that I have no real knowledge of, but now they are super corrupt if you pretend the private sector has 0 corruption and then compare them to that".

You seem to be very obsessed with dicks. Got something you want to get off your chest?

>>although you are making use of their resources for that to occur
>thanks for the free coffee and the macbook, i'll get to work on making that interstellar rocket for you now

basically this, short of a second French revolution we're not going to change much.

too bad no girls will be obsessed over your small dick, enjoy your virginity forever

>More talk about dicks
It's okay to just say you're gay, man. It is current year after all.

He is micropenis jew using money to fuck white women and hope jew pure women marry with him.

it does feel like sometimes lol, although resources does include other people and the output of their labor as well
game example is relying on the art department if you're in the programming department, or the fact that everyone works on different parts of the game that wouldn't make any money on their own but put together earn enough money to afford all the resources and make a profit

wagies lmao

>Crunchiness

He wants to circumcise you user.

Unions
/thread

Profit is theft!

Because expecting 100% of your revenue from resources you didn't buy nor manage is retarded, and you agreed to your profits for your labors which is why you didn't create a business yourself and chose to work for someone else. It's easier than ever to create your own business and studio these days thanks to the internet.

t. Someone that became a gourmet mushroom farmer for 100 bucks and now owns a house in California because I'm not a retard that thinks I deserve 100 bucks for stocking a shelf

if only everyone was self employed like when most of the country was, which also coincides with when there was more wealth distribution through extensive marginal tax rates and business regulations

You don't need that though. You just need to reverse the 1970 removal of the American School of Economics and favoritism of corporations, and allowance of exporting labor and importing goods.

Right fucking now you can become a gourmet mushroom farmer and have no excuse to cry about "I can't be self employed because WALMART exists!"

vocaroo.com/i/s0EkDdSP8xuN

How do I become a mushroom farming NEET

>Because expecting 100% of your revenue from resources you didn't buy nor manage is retarded
Getting the majority of the profit from resources and commodities you didn't create yourself is retarded. Its simply in working peoples interest to own everything they create who gives a fuck business owners don't like that idea they aren't making shit anyway so they deserve nothing.
>you agreed to your profits for your labors which is why you didn't create a business yourself and chose to work for someone else.
Thats how capitalism works dumbass if everyone was a business owner nothing would be made because business owners are parasite class who need the majority to do the labor so they can leech profits from it, the avergae person doesn't have the luxury or excess income to attempt to start their own business they simply have to find work which is available to them so they don't go homeless.

holy shit this guy just won at life
imagine winning this hard

spot the shitskin

Every fucking thread today brigaided with communists, can you fuckers die of starvation already

Start your own company.

If you farm mushrooms, you wouldn't be a NEET by definition, you retard.

There's literally nothing stopping you from gathering a group of likeminded people and starting your own commune and sharing the proceeds.

You dropped some ((()))’s, nothing will get better if people keep beating around the bush instead of acknowledging the problem

First you need to realize that, although you can grow in your own home, it does take quite a lot of labor and getting it to buyers (IE farmer markets or restaurants or stores willing to stock it)
grocycle.com/how-to-set-up-a-low-tech-mushroom-farm/ But this guide is relatively good.
I started it as a hobby and then looked into the business side of it, which I recommend, see if you like it before jumping in with both feet.
Even if you don't do it for profit, it's really worth it just for good mushrooms to eat and cook with, I recommend Lion's Mane, it looks awesome and tastes uniquely shellfishy.

>It's in working people's best interest to own everything they create
So you own nothing since you took the labor of miners, loggers, etc, or you took it from the people who shipped the products. The idea of owning everything you create, when you aren't primary market, and if you're not explicitly stocking, shipping, or managing every aspect of the logisitics to your "labor" you're a hypocrite exploiting others by another name.
>Business owners are a parasite class
You're banned from buying my mushrooms.

Wow I guess we should raise taxes

pretty good. took me a minute

vocaroo.com/i/s0v9PjBwi6GP

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If I believe I am producing more money than I get paid for the company, I can negotiate my pay with my employer
With taxes, I am forced to pay no matter what

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Fuck the termites and corporate fags that took over gaming.
And most of all fuck trannies
Fuck Jannies
Fuck fags
And fuck you

I would rather have slightly higher taxes than worry about being screwed over by student debt or medical bills.
Considering the sheer amount of people in America, a progressive tax hike needed to fund these services would be unnoticeable to the average person.

No you wouldn’t, your opinion as a failure is irrelevant and provided you don’t stay a failure, will be embarrassed you ever considered paying more taxes

wow it's almost like one is a voluntary transaction and the other is involuntary

>not being rich enough to be affected by a progressive tax is being a failure
Guess 99% of the American population are failures and we should all suffer unless we're lucky enough to have connections within that 1%.

Truly spoken like someone who doesn't understand shit. People don't get paid in accordance to what they produce, they get paid according to the laws of supply and demand. If your skills are in high demand and the supply for them is low you're gonna earn the big bucks. Managing a business may be a simple task but there are a thousand ways to manage a single business and only one of them is optimal. Since you're competing against a thousand other businesses or more you need to do it the optimal way if you don't want to go broke and then no one gets paid. And that's why successful business owners earn more than the guy flipping the hamburgers.

>12% $9,526 to $38,700
>22% $38,701 to $82,500
wow $38,701 per year so rich!

>breaks leg
>liquid funds are all gone from massive hospital kikery
Nothing personnel, Americano

Fpbp

>image implies that the green area is solely produced from your effort alone
Fill up the green circle with other people's yellow circles and change it to "our labor". Don't forget to put taxes in each yellow circle, along with a separate tax circle for the green circle. Then add multiple tax circles inside each circle for other taxes other than income tax. Remember, it is a privilege to earn money, spend money, have your money earn money, and it is even a privilege to die.

People see rich people as being the REAL problem when it isn't even close. The CEO of Walmart makes a shit ton of money, however if he donated his income to improving salaries, everyone would get less than a dollar raise while he works for free.

>didnt buy the factory
>didnt invest the money to even start the business
>dont pay for the materials
>dont pay for the machines
>dont pay for utilities
>dont pay for the other workers wages or benefits
>I deserve all the money
Why are commies so dumb?

>I have to dilate my festering wound everyday so it doesn't close up.
Fixed

Don't bother. They'll come up with some retarded reason they deserve all the profit with none of the risk. Ironically they'll also have a reason they don't just start their own business.

How do you "cheat" your wife out of money which is yours?

>strawmanning

If I have to wage slave, not having to pay taxes would at least be a start, you commie fuck.

dunno but prenups should be part of the Sims base game from here on out.
I want the full George Costanza experiene

Attached: the dough.jpg (1288x724, 79K)

George likes his chicken spicy.

Are you fuckin' daft? The total gross amount of dough made from a successful project is definitely not accurately depicted there, but all the extra money that could be going to the real devs just goes into the pockets of a select few, which is pretty silly considering they usually don't do a whole lot of the actual work

What an idea, that you have to get your spouse to sign a paper to agree to not rob you in order to protect yourself, but it doesn't even matter since she is allowed to rob you anyways if she just claims she felt "threatened" when she signed the non-robbing agreement.

How about you learn what a strawman actually is before using it? What he said actually literally happens now. It's not a strawman it's reality.

Who's stopping you from claiming that economic value for yourself? You chose to sell it to a capitalist because you couldn't be bothered to use your "economic value" to create your own business.

>>didnt buy the factory
>>didnt invest the money to even start the business
>>dont pay for the materials
>>dont pay for the machines
>>dont pay for utilities
>>dont pay for the other workers wages or benefits
Every single one of these comes from the labourers work you stupid shit. Additionally the graph is the work of a single worker.

Source?

The revolution isn't happening any time soon on this autistic video game discussion forum for low life degenerates, comrade.

>Look at this abstract graph! This abstract graph is empirical truth!
>wtf stop refining the abstract graph and explaining the depth of the economics and logistics
>Just listen and believe

Killing, violence is always the answer, that's the real way to take over a company, and as we all know the top of companies is where society's wealth is stored. All the über rich families do it too, why don't you?

>a worker is entitled to all labors of other workers
>But not the manager, the manager is entitled to nothing, because logistics don't exist, under communism all materials magically teleport to where they need to be with no intelligent oversight. Planning is a capitalist myth.

If you could do it yourself, you would. But you can't, so you settle for a smaller wage to do it for someone else. Quit your bullshit.

>You just need to reverse the 1970 removal of the American School of Economics and favoritism of corporations, and allowance of exporting labor and importing goods

These would be great starts to bring back the kind of america we used to have. If you think the complete reversal of self employment to selling labor is due to some weird cultural change that only working people are to blame for then I dont know what to tell you. This current economy literally cannot exist without employees and not everyone can be a "gourmet mushroom farmer."

Jesus fucking christ you are retarded and clearly did not read, That graph is the work one worker, Surely he is entitled to a bigger slice of the pie that HE produces. Manager do deserve to get paid, but when the worker gets paid smaller and smaller wages theres something fucking wrong. There is a reason the middle class is shrinking, and its because you economically illiterate retards who think people being paid more is a fucking crime against humanity.

any current House flipper type games about finance?

>not a retard
>owns a house in california

Come on now.

To be fair, I think it's pretty clear at this point the sorts of games you can afford to make on your average Crowdfunded budget is pretty limited in terms of scope. Consider all the medium-sized Kickstarters that end up running for Publisher cash when their well of fanmoney runs dry.
If you want to make a certain type of game you still need to chug that Publisher cock whether you like it or not.

What? That would be very hard to prove.

That's literally what the article is about, she is claiming the prenup doesn't count because she was forced to sign it. Many such cases.

>refining the graph
The graph is only supposed to represent a single person, doing what he suggested is retarded to begin with.

Plus it's already been said that the graph is not 100% the truth, just try to stop being so paranoid and butthurt

Who the FUCK made this bullshit graph ? Do they not live in a civilized country ?

Stop buying triple a games

Based

>tfw there's """"""""""people"""""""""" that actually take that image seriously

Attached: lmm.jpg (800x800, 42K)

>Chart is arbitrary circles with no defined numbers and doesn't explain where it's from, who it's for, what it's under, or anything
>"Wow retard can't you read? The chart explicitly states it's from a sole worker!"

Fuck off retard, you're defending an abstract blob with no statistics. Labor isn't equal, labour does not have inherent value. I can spend years of my life hauling 100 pound blocks of marble and carving your mouth getting fucked by 400 black guys, carved painstakingly with a spoon, and all that labor would be worthless if it's not in demand or useful.
If a game studio spends years to make a shit product, their labor did not magically create value, it was wasted effort.

income tax didn't exist when most people were self imployed. central banking and the income tax that supports it create inequality.

>random graph with random sizes meaning anything of worth
Giving you more money wouldn't cure you of your stupidity

Based and truthpilled

If the graph has no merit, then it's worthless. It's an abstract idea that isn't based on how the real world functions, and it purposefully neglects to mention all the other aspects such as the corporate tax, the upkeep, the insurance, etc. It acts like a worker is an island who doesn't rely on anyone else and assumes they never ever make any errors, and that their labor ALWAYS has a static value, which isn't true. The chart is worthless propaganda created by someone most likely in academia, who isn't a laborer but would likely see themselves as a champion of the worker.

The post I was reacting to was written in a "find out how to invalidate prenup with this simple trick, husbands hate her" way and I don't believe that's the case.

Confirmed retarded, try not to respond with an entire fucking strawman you dumb fuck.

you don't
crunch will always be a part of development; not just in software but in all products
it can be mitigated somewhat, but at the end of the day the product must ship
if the development got bungled so badly that you have to make a whole triple A game in the span of six months, your only options are riding that death march or jump ship and deal with the uncertainty until you find a new gig

I don't think it's unreasonable that the business owner earns more than, say, a low-level worker within a given company, due to facilitating the existence of said worker's job in the first place along with (usually) having higher levels of responsibility or, at the very least, shouldering the largest amount of risk when starting up the company, but I also don't think it's particularly unreasonable to argue that the current distribution of the profits is skewed extremely unfairly in favour of those on the top of the ladder.
And certainly, you can try and make the argument that if individuals don't like such circumstances they should try becoming self-employed, but I think that fails to realise that ultimately there's always going to be some subset of individuals who simply will not have the means to do so (whether that be through a lack of resources, intelligence/ability or something else) and that we shouldn't want said individuals to be in such a situation even in a society of 70% self-employment.

>I don't like this chart so it isn't true! Corporate overlords please fuck me harder!

I don't usually laugh at /pol/ memes but this one got me. I admit it. You are based. And redpilled.

Fuck off commie. Try to actually make an argument instead of going "Well you see, my abstract blobs actually mean something. Stop applying real world parallels to my perfect blobs, I shouldn't have to educate you because my chart is incomplete, JUST LISTEN AND BELIEVE

>using the commie retort
Ah here we have it folks, the retard can't come up with an actual argument and defers to ad honimem because he's too intellectually challenged to understand that a fair wage is not the same as communism.

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>If you point out that communist nonsense doesn't understand anything then you must be a corporate shill!
>Evil capitalists demanding realistic arguments! The revolution will be supported by hopes, dreams, and academia!

>Communism
There you go again not knowing what that word means.

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You didn't make that argument at all. You're defending a chart that is so simplistic it's worthless. It doesn't understand the relationship of workers and management in an economy. At this point it's fair to call you a retard.

>You used ad hominem!
Faggot, you started calling people retarded FIRST instead of refining or defending your chart, you're injecting things that aren't there.

M8 no one gives a fuck what you think, you literally don't know a word that fucking 5th graders know means.

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This would have more of a leg to stand on if this stupidly simple graph could also explain how different types of labor have different values. Someone providing a social service, like the dude who delivers my mail or takes out my trash, I get that. It's simple but I can see how its important. I can't imagine a part-time worker at a wal-mart looking at this graph and being like, "Yeah, I provide a lot of value through what I do".

lol no, crunch is a sign of bad management. I've worked on plenty of software development teams with no crunch because management has great engineering experience and knows how long something takes, leaves good buffers for unforeseen risks and pushes back against any scope creep. I've also worked on teams where management has no clue what they're doing so the deadlines might as well be calculated while taking crunch time into account. No engineer should have to stand for that shit.
OP is still bullshit though

As with everything, the problem lies in the majority stockholders demanding they get maximum possible growth even if non-sustainable. They're the ones who require games are put out at the paces that they are, because they want it to hit the market before competition. Development and project time doesn't even compute to them.
But the only solution to that is to either go private, which is not sustainable for a majority of firms, or completely reorganize how stocks work, which won't happen.

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You're not willing to have an actual argument You're defending a chart that is extremely simplistic and doesn't explain the nuance of the economy, and try to defend the "inherent value of labor" which simply doesn't exist. You're trying to back up your argument by insinuating anyone that tries to refine the argument as being more nuanced than it's being made out to be to be "retarded" and "unable to argue" which is typical academia "I'm better than you" bullshit while trying to control the narrative that other people are "starting to use ad hominem" when you come swinging with calling peope retarded for pointing out the chart is bad, overly simplistic, and is argued on bad faith without understanding of modern economics.

Get fucked retard. Or we can try this argument again, if you want.

I've seen so many Communist threads recently.

Is the tide finally fucking turning?

Counterpoint: How would things work without the walmart guy

It's like that episode of the simpsons where the people that bagged the groceries went on strike. Of course, nowhere nearly that level of disruption, but if those services weren't required, probably nobody would be hired to do that work.

Much like McDonalds jobs. Yeah, it's a simple job, but if they weren't there, would people be able to self-serve

No, communists are just retarded and loud. As soon as they actually act out, thousands will die and it'll cause a fascist counter to rise up. That's what happens almost every time.

the final scream is always the loudest

What I agree with is the massive wealth gap between corporations and individuals but what bothers me more is the playing field not being equal with tax exemptions and legal bribery through lobbies. The other user is completely right in that the work of employees can be wasted on a fleeting task and that you can ask for more if you master something in high demand. That's not strawman, that's just how it works.

if you produce so much value, why don't you quit your job and cut out the middleman?

Shut the fuck up and buckle up, we're going RED

Attached: 1557422590983.jpg (1280x720, 187K)

There are already automatic cashiers at Wal-mart.
A job paying minimum wage is a good indication that most people can do that job themselves.

I see that the taxes circle takes up a much larger portion of the yellow than the green

>which is typical academia "I'm better than you
Jesus christ you are so pathetic, There is no i'm better than you bullshit here, it's a very simple i'm smarter than you because i know what actual fucking communism is. I'm sorry you think academia = elementary school. Which is obvious you didn't fucking attend. Workers these day create way more than ever and yet are paid worse. The argument against the value of labor is bullshit because you have yet to cite one example of labor. We produce now more then ever yet are paid WORSE and the items produced have gone UP in price. So tell me dipshit, how the fuck does you're argument that labor isn't equal yet prices are going up and wages going down? Either there is a demand for such things and there should be a raise in wages, or someone is skimming off the top.

I used to work in pediatric operating room for minimum wage and it is definitely not something most people can do. I know you said indication, just wanted to point out my personal experience.

because green is a matter of negotiation, a deal I could take or leave, while orange is robbery at threat of jail-time.

Bagging is an interesting topic because it's not always necessary, which is why you see self check out becoming more and more common, but, at places like Home Depot, there's a lot of material that can't go through self checkout, such as planks and materials that are sold by length, rather than prepackaged.

It's a convenience that attracts people, rather than a necessity, in a lot of cases, but now people are finding it faster to serve themselves if they buy a few products instead of a lot of products,
Though with delivery being a thing now, you see people wanting to have less interaction, and bagging (And ordering at fast food places) are starting to disappear, people want to either do it themselves quickly, or just not interact with a persona and possibly deal with error.
However, some people still prefer the human interaction (Especially in cases where you talk on the phone, people hate machines and love talking to a person)
But it's mostly a service to attract customers rather than be a necessary part of the business. Plus it creates jobs.

Spooky times ahead when the world grows more mechanical.

Damn. My employer makes his wage wholly based off of only my wage and it's doubled?
I'm upset now.

>Pediatric OR for minimum wage
Jesus man, I wouldn't have the stomach to do that, much less at minimum wage. Good on you pal, your service helped. Probably. Maybe not, but I'd like to think you helped a surgery go well.

I am mad about both.
I work a shit wage job for a small company that makes around 32 million USD a month.
I know this because I receive all the data on our sales and costs.
You wouldn't believe how much we are paid to make the Nintendo Labo shit.

And yet I make only around 15% more than what my dad made in his warehouse job in the early 1980s despite inflation being 3x that.

Attached: poor college student paystub 2.jpg (642x624, 130K)

reduce paychecks of the top execs and presidents and c[whatever]o's that keep giving themselves bonuses, even when not meeting sales nor rating expectations for releasing unfinished games.

>crunch times exist for any industry with deadlines
>video games have had them for decades
>suddenly a problem because a bunch of hacky writers and designers who whine about everything are listened to

What happened to just doing your job and not complaining, especially when they have a literal dream career. If they hate crunch times so much maybe they can go work in garbage pickup.

uh i am mad about that at my job, that is the thing i am second most mad about in my personal life, the thing i am most mad about is being virgin and no gf

That's true! Lemme try to throw something to you as well. Let's say that walmart guy quit or all the walmart guys quit. Some mass market strike that went on throughout the stores. These positions are already so low on the totem-pole that I feel like they could easily be staffed by the next person down on their luck needing something to scrape by. By all means I'm not arguing that the walmart guy shouldn't aim for more pay, but I feel like its pretty much out of his hands already since its a private company. He has a simple job that benefits no one but his employer. We can say that he's providing a service to you, the customer, but to me its more like the company is providing a service, through him. It's a cold to think of people like that but that's just how I'm seeing it.

>tfw boomer dad talks to you about how "yuppies" are destabilizing the middle east and subverting western culture

Crunch time is the result of poor management not properly allocating resources and time to a project. It is not the workers fault.

>when they have a literal dream career
this belief is why the conditions are so shit. the reality is game devs do highly technical work, work long hours and are typically qualified to earn more in different fields. yet they choose to stick to game dev because muh passion. this is the crux of it. this is why they won't quit a shit job. this is why they won't risk it negotiating raises or flexibility etc.

Shut the fuck up bootlicker.

Every project goes this way. Crunch time isn't exclusive to the gaming industry. Any time there's a deadline in any field near the end you have to work twice as hard to get things done on time.

R e a l
W o r l d

The green portion is only achieved via economies of scale which you are incapable of single handedly

>It's yet another commie bootlicker episode
Imagine, if you will, believing that because the boot in your mouth is the standard union issue boot, that you're any less of a bootlicker for licking it.

Attached: bootlicker.png (770x678, 516K)

If you think its just the jews that are doing this you're in for some rough times. Everyone is fucking over everyone nowadays. Rothchilds just happened to get to do it before anyone else.

There are some jobs that are only there because law requires them.
I had a friend who was basically invisible at work and did nothing all day because his position was required by the company but they did not have any work for him.

No that's bullshit, i have worked on plenty of projects that had proper resources and reasonable goals and we never had to crunch. It is the failure of bad planning that management has done, PERIOD. If you are going to make a product that you know you cannot reach, you either need to scale to meet it or end up a blunder. You're defending literal stupidity as if thats an acceptable argument.

This has been drawn by a commie for sure.
Nothing as stupid as this kind of bullshit.

>Dream job

That's how they managed to keep doing that for decades. People were so "wondered" by the idea of making a living making videogames. Turns out it's a job like any other and if you are not part of the design team, you are not gonna have much say on what you'll make. Most cases, you are another code monkey like in many other shitty programming jobs.

Reminds me of all those WWE wrestlers that worked injured and for low pays for years because they were originally WWE fans and were doing their "dream job"

Oh sure, Hence why I turned towards bagging example, since different types of store might REQUIRE a decent bagger to prevent customers from clogging up lines.

>If you want to make a certain type of game you still need to chug that Publisher cock whether you like it or not.
Yeah, everybody hates publishers but they're needed if you want to make an AA game. And even indies needed one, such as Team Meat, Humble Hearts and Number None.

I work at Microsoft, deadlines are sane, in the event a deadline is not met it's simply extended and the launch delayed, this is more and more true as we shift to web microservices continuously deployed, somehow the company is still around 30 years later despite this. Stop swallowing your management's bullshit.

>put screw on plane
>plane gets sold for millions
>what the fuck where are my millions of dollar I built that plane, that entire plane is mine fuck capitalism and fuck laws and borders n shit
ok retard

>Generalizing this hard

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Indeed I wanted to do it for the experience itself, not the wages. My position meant that all of the patients would be operated on in a reasonable time (OR team is a sequence of hierarchies with defined tasks = everyone knows what to do) and since I was on more than 1000 operations (many of which were serious) I'd like to think that the answer to your string is yes, however small yes it is.

What we have right now is not exclusive to the game industry.
What might help is transparency and accountability at all levels.

Kind of hard to give cousin Bob almost zero hours and a 500k salary and explain it to overworked, underpaid Joe everyman when everyone can see and discuss these things openly.

here's a better image faggot

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His analogy is perfect. The image int he OP doesn't account for
>Equipment that isn't yours
>Building/office that isn't yours
>capital that was spent that isn't yours
If you want to earn 100% of what you earn, then you employ yourself. You make yourself your own employee. This is common fucking sense.

What about the education required for the worker?
What about the items he needs to survive?
You stupid fucks are ignoring all the other factors that the worker needs as well.

Transparency will not happen fo the same reason why tax payers are not given a report on what exactly their tax dollars are spent on.

If they had the breakdown info on that they would riot.

PARTY PEEPERS IN THE HOUSE TONIGHT

Attached: peepers.gif (326x204, 98K)

>What about the education required for the worker
What about it?
>What about the items he needs to survive
What about it?

oh fuck me wrong thread

based peepbro

that is a Plankton (from Spongebob) Illusion thumbnail, very nice

Havent been this tricked since the anime girl as Hagrid thumbnail

How the fuck does that not factor into the costs. The wages should reflect those factors, yet despite producing more then ever they DON'T. Stop being a corporate shill. The fact of the matter is, people work harder, and more efficient then ever, and yet companies still paying them less.

Good on you, man.

The problem there is the 1970s is around the birth of the PC and expansion of the micro processor.

This greatly advanced the productivity in many businesses.

I can attest to this from comparing the same job from the same company.
Both my Uncle and Aunt worked for Hewlett Packard.
My Grandmother worked for them from the late 1940s to the early 1970s and my Uncle worked for them decades later in the same building.

Attached: Grandmother at HP early 1950s.jpg (1237x1613, 518K)

what others business would you recommend to start from a scratch to gain fuckton of money?

>How does that not factor into costs
It does? They pay you, and they cover health insurance.

>yet companies still paying them less
>believing this in 2019 when the info is available
People are making more. That is a fact. The rich getting richer doesn't mean that your 10k increase in pay is a decrease... You dumb fucks need to go back to school...