There is NO """character action""" game

Combat is the crux of gameplay. You can split gameplay into others, progression, level design, etc. It is fair to say that DMC has better combat but Bloodborne has better level design. I'd say DMC has better enemies (in line with better combat, more things you can do) but it is okay to have different opinion.

All I'm saying is that I'm tired of having games with good combat judges unfairly because they're supposed to be on their entirely unique genre, while other games with bad combat (Witcher, Batman Arkham whatever, AssCreed, FFXV) gets a pass because "it is not meant to be DMC."

I also hated the term character action because it is meaningless.

I think I like the term "stylish action games" where the primary focus is on making the combat look Great. DMC and bayo. Both incentivize looking cool while fighting in different ways. Devil May cry with the style system. Bayonetta with a rating system and moves that do things like a camera snap for fun. High stakes high reward moves like royal guard and mirror of mahakala too.

Comparing them to other action games and even debatably Ninja gaiden, is a fools errand The purpose of other action games generally isn't the same purpose as Bayonetta devil May cry or other action games of that like. Just because you can look stylish in ninja guiden does not mean that's the primary goal in every combat encounter.

Combat has different motivations no matter what game you're in. Bloodborne is still aggressive for example but not focused on looking cool and stylish. It's about surviving That's why it's occasionally incentivized in souls games to cheese out enemies. because the goal wasn't to do it while looking cool it was to just to do it.

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>implying 'character action' isn't a useful descriptor for the sub-subgenre featuring games that notably share specific features (e.g. most common camera perspectives, enemy behavior, character progression, level design, sense of player empowerment, etc.)

The action-adventure subgenre is bloated to the point of being nearly meaningless as a descriptor, so creating a new list of descriptors that apply to the subgenre is valuable for actually giving people information about games. You can't tell someone "it plays like DMC" ([x] plays like DMC) and expect them to fully understand if he's only played God of War and Ninja Gaiden; if he knows that DMC, God of War, and Ninja Gaiden are all character-action games ([x] plays like DMC, which plays like GoW, which plays like NG, which plays like DMC), then telling him "it plays like DMC" tells him a lot even if he hasn't played DMC before.

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I think the distinction is mostly if the action game ranks your performance or not. It's the difference between "You did it!" and "Did you do it well?" That does include Ninja Gaiden, although it's less-emphasized due to the Karma prompts being toggleable on the screen, and that makes sense given how you're put to task to even survive most of the time in NG.

>muh character action
who's the literal mouthbreather who came up with this shit

what's wrong with calling them 3d beat em ups/brawlers/hack n slash, which is what they are

DMC has worse enemies, that's a fact. They have less moves, they're less aggressive (yes, even on DMD), and many of them have annoying run away phases. Enemy interplay in DMC is much, much weaker. There are no enemies that are threatening; they're just annoying most of the time until you launch them. This was intentional design to put an emphasis on offense, but the defense and enemy interplay is lacking.
Furthermore, combat being the crux is genre-dependent. Yes, it's the crux of a fighting game or a game like DMC. Not so much in the milion other games without it or genres that don't really focus on immediate combat.

The games aren't judged unfairly. They're a one-trick pony more or less.

people who are afraid of being associated with button mashers so they make up their own rules for character/stylish action

You've never played dmc4

Ryu Hayabusa is not exactly stylish action. Nor is Sora from Kingdom Hearts.

DMC and Bayonetta had completely different style rewards system. DMC punishes you by repeating the same action over and over again. Bayonetta doesn't, but ask you to chain combos and capitalize on point multipliers. NG incentivise you to do instant kill attack, while DMC punishes you for doing so (because you get less style points).

You could say that DMC is the only game fit of "Stylish action" while Bayonetta is "free flowing maintain momentum action" and NG is "efficient action."

You can make Monster Hunter looks stylish as heck, but they don't reward you for it. Does it keep MonHun from being in the elite club? They're just action games. Some with better combat than others. Some with better story than others. Some with better level designs than others. They all should be judged on the same scale.

It is shallow but far more engaging due to the difficulty. BB requires more precise timing and better positioning.

>what's wrong with calling them 3d beat em ups/brawlers/hack n slash, which is what they are
Because that loops a bunch of games that are actually quite dissimilar into one genre just because they are 3D and you hit things user.

Surprise game genres have been stupid and incorrect for fucking decades now.

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You've never played a dmc game. They absolutely do reward you with style points for doing instant kill attacks you retard.

Because "3d beatemup" brings to mind the fucking avalanche of Double Dragon ripoffs that took over arcades for a while. Nobody in their right mind would dump the Splatterhouse reboot in the same bucket as Splatterhouse 3.

I have. Twice. Once release and once just recently. It was so boring the second time I dropped it. I had forgotten Credo only had like 4 moves and realized I had grown out of the genre.

>3d beat em ups/brawlers/hack n slash, which is what they are
You still hack and slash people in nuGOW, Dark Souls, Nioh. You still beat up people in Yakuza. Hell, you still beat up people in the Sims. Does that mean the Sims is 3d beat'em up? lol, those names are dumb

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Just because the game is harder doesn't make it any better

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this isn't even a little bit true unless you're comparing small dmc enemies to BB bosses but comparing bosses to bosses, DMC requires a lot more engagement

Read nigga. You just reiterated what I said about ninja gaiden

Also your point about monster hunter is incorrect because the goal of the combat isn't to be stylish. It is to kill the monster and get materials I mean user read:
>Just because you can look stylish in ninja guiden does not mean that's the primary goal in every combat encounter.
Monster hunter doesn't give you more rewards for landing that level 3 greatsword charge. You get more rewards for breaking parts which you can do in other ways that muh crazy "gOtCha BiTCh" moments.

>You've never played a dmc game. They absolutely do reward you with style points for doing instant kill attacks you retard.
Go play DMC5 DMD and nuke every room with Sin DT and Faust meteor. See how much style points you get compared to playing honestly.

Only DMC3 rewards you from doing DTE, but even then it is treated as limited resource for you to pick and choose room to style for, and room to DTE depending on enemies and matchup to maximize your points at the end of the mission.

its a clever term made to avoid having games with shallow combat compared to games where the developers actually thought about their combat system

>You could say that DMC is the only game fit of "Stylish action" while Bayonetta is "free flowing maintain momentum action" and NG is "efficient action."
Also this is retarded for a myriad of reasons because you're pretty free flowing in all games.

AND

Bayo and DMC both have rating systems and this user put it best
>It's the difference between "You did it!" and "Did you do it well?" That does include Ninja Gaiden, although it's less-emphasized due to the Karma prompts being toggleable on the screen, and that makes sense given how you're put to task to even survive most of the time in NG.

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Can't people just call them hack and slash or beat em ups like always.

wahoo pizza man vs Bayonetta?

DMC bosses are literally 'run away for a while and then there's a DPS phase' where they let you whack on them. The best bosses, like Vergil 3, are basically average BB bosses.

combo fighting
hitbox fighting
target fighting

>beat em ups
thats streets of rage and final fight type games

>Combat is the crux of gameplay
most games dont have combat, yet they all have gameplay, therefore there must also be games that have combat, yet dont have their focus on it.

The sims has beat em up mechanics. You can go down the well from God Hand>Yakuza>Sonic Unleashed Werewolf level > the Sims at the lowest rung of beat em up.

>All I'm saying is that I'm tired of having games with good combat judges unfairly because they're supposed to be on their entirely unique genre, while other games with bad combat (Witcher, Batman Arkham whatever, AssCreed, FFXV) gets a pass because "it is not meant to be DMC."
Then you are a consummate idiot that deserves every bit of inconvenience and headache this justified distinction between genres provides you.

>most games dont have combat, yet they all have gameplay, therefore there must also be games that have combat, yet dont have their focus on it
That is a fair argument. Some people value one more than others. However in a game that predominantly combat (Witcher, Batman, Asscreed) it is fair to judge them on the same scale as DMC and Bayonetta.

Spectacle fighter is a better descriptor

>Monhun
>bad gameplay
It's the closest in intricacy and variance in gameplay a game could possibly be without beinga spectacle fighter. MonHun gameplay is absolutely riveting...... until you assemble an endgame set that allows you to just turn monsters into punching bags that can barely fight back due to being flinched all the time.

This is stupid, because DMC games are tiny in scope compared to something like TW3. You need to start subtracting points from DMC shit levels, instanced stage design, lack of customization, lack of dialogue options, etc.
You have to take account some matter of intent.

Character Action is a weak term, Spectacle Action game has always felt more appropriate.
The core of spectacle/character action games is that the game tries to put you in the mind-set of the character you're playing as.
Souls, Sekiro and MonHun are more centered around deliberate but fewer actions with more weight behind them, and typically against enemies with much more purposeful placement or extensive AI. The big difference is that in those games, the player is at a moveset disadvantage, they will typically have fewer options than the enemies they fight against.
I wouldn't put AssCreed, Witcher and Zelda in the same category. They're more adventure games with some light action combat wherein the action is mostly just meant to serve as the main form of conflict, but the game is about more than conflict compared to other action games. Exploration is the main component

>predominantly combat (Witcher, Batman, Asscreed) it is fair to judge them on the same scale as DMC and Bayonetta.
not really. As I listed above here The goal of Asscreed and Witcher is not to get rewarded for doing cool shit. The crux of the combat is not to be stylish

No one bought the witcher to get a fucking SSS rank on a warewolf encounter because they did a 1 frame counter. They like the story. Apples to Oranges again faggots.

Is Monster Hunter a spectacle fighter? You can make Monster Hunter look super cool, utilize Guard Point block with charge blade, etc. The game doesn't reward you for doing so, but it doesn't mean that you cannot upload Solo no damage Teostra kill on youtube and cannot make a spectacle out of it. It doesn't make it less impressive either.

funny you talk about bosses where you back off while they swing before a dps phase and you're not referring to BB
DMD vergil 3 alone has more interactions than the entirety of blooborne

>Apples to Oranges again faggots.
They're both fruits. I like some fruits better than others.

You're probably one of those fags that gets his knickers in a twist about "immersive sims."

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user read your own post
>Is Monster Hunter a spectacle fighter?
>The game doesn't reward you for doing so
seriously though looking cool isn't the goal or incentivized so why would it be one user? you fucking retard.

But it is. In BB you commit to every single move if it's not timed correctly you're fucked whereas in DMC you can just cancel if you regret the move you made.

makes sense for the witcher but there is no excuse for the absolute turd of a combat system in the arkham series

I'd say no, MonHun is more a boss fighter.
The core gameplay is about actually beating the monster, not necessarily how you do it (hence why World gave more weight to non-weapon resources like environmental projectiles and traps and the like).

The back-and-forth in Souls happens at a much faster rate that it's not like DMC. So fast it changes the gameplay dynamic. Bosses in DMC take breathers all the time, so you just wait for those and start mashing. It's the opposite of engaging to me because I know that each DMC boss will take a breather, so instead of trying to learn every move, I just learn the one move where he snoozes.

>he actually thinks this is an argument
Jesus user you have to be the biggest retard in this thread.

You cannot evaluate things as an equal when based on different criteria. That isn't a fair comparison.

Just because you like english class more than fucking math doesn't mean that english is better than math. You cannot compare them because they are DIFFERENT FUCKING THINGS.

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>'run away for a while and then there's a DPS phase'

>he doesn't know Royal guard

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>no excuse for the absolute turd of a combat system in the arkham series
correct which is why I left it out of my post. The goal of banham is to get points while playing well and there fore is ok to compare THE COMBAT ONLY to bayo and dmc.

discord.gg/sJpcEqV

Never tried it. Running away and waiting for mash time works just fine.

Good post user

hey thanks man. I have loved these kinds of games circa 2003 and have been playing them since so its only natural I actually put effort to the discussion of naming the genre for them.

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This what makes the comparison to Monster Hunter fair.

Even DMC style system broke when you do jittery fancy reversal and jump cancels. People don't just play purely for points. It is to show off. You can show off in both MonHun and DMC. Monhun rewards you for doing so less than DMC, but DMC still doesn't reward you fully. You can play like an efficient safe faggot in both games.

Is almost if, both are just action games and should be in the same genre

There is variety in weapon moveset, but the core of the game is still dash/dodge and punish with occasional visceral. And Arcane is one of the least used builds.

>DMC still doesn't reward you fully.
False at least in DMC 5's case because dante's strongest skill is locked behind maintaining SSS. At the very least you have to weapon and style switch to get there. How do you get SSS while being 100 percent safe?

Artorias doesn't have many moves yet its still one of the best souls bosses

The core of the gameplay is atmosphere, exploration, enemies, bosses, and combat. Some matter of intent has to be taken into account.
DMC has basically zero atmosphere, the enemies are lackluster, the bosses are almost all pretty lame aside from the occasional gem, and the exploration is non-existent. It wouldn't be fair to judge DMC by the standards of BB however, because DMC isn't trying to do what BB is.

I'm talking about fancy techniques.

Doing 20 reps of Side Star Raves are cooler, require more skill and dexterity than playing efficiently, do 1 combo, switch weapon, do another combo, etc until SSS. But the game punishes you for doing 20 side raves in a row because you're not alternating your moves. In that regards, any action game can be make into spectacle fighter. Spectacle is in the eye of the beholder

He's one of the best Dark Souls 1 bosses, but he's pretty poor compared to even mid-range bosses like Logarius.

You’ve been playing these games wrong then. The goal isn’t to beat the boss, the goal is to beat the boss and look cool while doing it.

>Bosses in DMC take breathers all the time, so you just wait for those and start mashing.
Only really if you stun them by being hyper agressive and dodging through their combos.

The only other time they take a "breather" is when they are charging up an big fuck off attack. Which then makes sense for them to be open to make that move fair.

yeah its no problem
honestly I gotta thank you for actually discussing game in a good way

stop baiting
If someone like Arin can make it through bloodborne then it really isnt a challenge on any level

Logarius is wayyy less mobile than Artorias and casts magic besides the use of his scythe, Artorias is more closer to Gael or Maria

the enjoyment of Bloodborne for me was the exploration and world, the combat itself was just okay given that it really just boils down to dodge out of the bad and then mash L1

But the goal of monsterhunter isn't to fucking land that level 3 great sword charge. It is to break the fucking head or tail or capture to get more fucking materials. You are missing the point

It isn't fair to compare DMC and MoHan because the goal of the combat is inherently different. DMC's goal is LITERALLY to land those heavy moves and combos to make your style jump up.

I never saw the point in any of that because I always played fighting games (and still do) to style on people. I never once looked at a DMC combo video and was blown away by how "stylish" it was.
The games are very bizarre in who they're trying to appeal to with the stylish nonsense. It's a weird audience and only a fraction of the people that buy the games.

Neither is DMC. Are you really implying DMD is hard?

Lmao. Everyone look at this dipsgit. Normie dudebro PS4 douchebag thinks his opinions on gaming are relevant. Go back to Madden fuckboi.

I didn't say they were similar, I said Logarius was better, which he is. There's a lot more going on in the fight. Also, he's just as fast, if not faster.

I love DMC but you're right. Have you seen the cringy fighting game combo competition? It is like that for a single player game. It is for people who just want to press buttons and style on AI enemies with predictable behavior and pattern that can be learned.

If you can find joy in styling on fighting game, doing set ups, frame traps, 50/50, and reset, then just with a slightly different brain wiring you can understand how people can also enjoy doing that to enemy AI and NPC.

Are your opinions supposed to be relevant? I'm guessing your bench is dogshit, soiboi

You went through that whole post and you brought up challenge?

Okay? Then these games just aren’t for you, which is fine but to act like mash L1 the game has an objectively superior combat system is ridiculous.

>Are you really implying DMD is hard?
Finishing DMD is not hard. Finishing DMD with S ranks without cheese tactics like SinDT nuke, Faust meteor is harder than finishing NG7+ bloodborne run

>DYEL

Fucking trailer trash PS4 fuckbios never cease to make me laugh. What's you pitbull's name, fuckbio?

People have fun trying to land heavy hitting moves and combos.

Thats it user what is so hard to understand?

also
>playing fighting games to style on people
>not just enjoying a good back and forth with someone slightly better than you
You seem like an asshole but ok
t. someone who loves fighting games and DMC

Well yes the atmosphere and exploration are big part of the package, but you get used to them after 1 or 2 playthroughs, the combat can determine the longevity of a game single handedly.
World design is something Miyazaki will nail everytime, but he also wants to improve the combat, but PvP is a big limitation for experimenting, that's why he wants to experiment with single player games like Sekiro

>Never tried it. Running away and waiting for mash time works just fine.
>I never saw the point in any of that [and am going to continue to disparage the people who do see the point]
?????????????????

I'd give Bayonetta my 'action' if you know what i meme ;)

>including adventure games
I get it, it’s called ACTION/adventure
But putting Zelda and Witcher in there is retarded. The adventure and world of those games takes priority over the action. They do not play or are even structured like any of the games above. Neither are Souls and MH, but you can argue they’re action games.
I can’t take you seriously if you can’t even categorize existing games properly you retard

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>World design is something Miyazaki will nail everytime
Not with Sekiro he didn’t

I wish DMC didn't force bad camera angles on me

>why do people practice dancing when they could just train to fight instead

the purpose of DMC style compilations is to explore the endless depth of the combat system to discover cool looking stuff. It works with DMC because Dante requires some of the most hand dexterity in all of video games. In that case it's a genuine spectacle
Just doing basic DMC 4 advanced techniques requires a shit load of practice

Sweet bait dude, calling zelda and witcher bad. I know that just because something's popular doesn't mean it's bad.
>INB4 "Duh, uuhhhh, but do not also mean it good!!"
Shut the fuck up.

Action Adventure is by far the dumbest of all genres for games, since almost every single fucking game either has action in it or adventure in it.

I understand the appeal user, it's just not for me and it's even MORE limited then the limited appeal of fighting games.

I prefer the Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro games as a whole to DMC but I would never suggest the combat is superior.
Unless by "gameplay" you mean the sum total of everything you do in the game, like quests/customization/exploring.
But I'm pretty sure OP just meant the combat by context.

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challenge also implies enemy and boss design
the fury and the blitz from 4 and 5 have a lot more going on than lunging enemy #78

Autism.

He has a few seconds of lag when he wants to decide his next move.
What does he really do besides swing a scythe, cast explosive skulls and rain swords on you?

Quality is really more important than quantity.
The Darklurker has a shit ton of moves yet is a slow as fuck boss who needs to use Mitosis to actually be challenging.

Okay Charlie, now go make some fucking videos.

You don't play games to just style on people; that's just part of the appeal. I don't go to weeklies and locals and majors to style on people—I go because it's fun. That includes things like socialisation and having a good rivalry.

I like Yahtzee's term "spectacle fighters" for it.
There's a huge difference between something like For Honor and Devil May Cry yet both fall under that category of highly technical hacknslash.

Go to fucking bed jeanne

Their combat is bad

That's fine. It's just that you literally said
>I never saw the point in any of that because I always played fighting games (and still do) to style on people.
Now I know but you painted yourself in a bad light there

A true game hobbyist doesn't box themselves into one genre. While they may have a favorite genre, there's no reason they can't enjoy a round of DS3, then hop on Thronebreaker for a bit, then play a little Euro Truck Sim, then cap the night off with some Grim Dawn.

Imagine being this retarded.

Not really different then any weeb fighting game desu. I had no problems doing vid-worthy loops and to this day still can't do some of Johnny's BnBs in ac+.

Well he also has sword attacks, he has lunging attacks, he has an AOE etc. There's also more interaction with the boss itself since he can be parried and BS'd.

Comparing DMC to Souls is completely retarded. They're very different types of games that both have good combat. Same with MH and NG. Souls is an action RPG. I agree that the term character action is silly though.

That I’ll agree on, but at this point the genre title itself explains what kind of structure the game will have.
Saying that Bayonetta (linear story, level by level with a high focus on the combat) is a better action game than Zelda (explorable world, story you take at leisure, puzzles and combat mixture) sounds retarded. You might as well include Mario and Crash on that list too

Do you have a single argument to back that up other than "The combat is bad," which is a complete joke of a criticism that's only pulled out on nearly universally beloved and critically acclaimed games. It's so easy to just pull shit out of your ass to throw under that statement, but do you have a single thing to back that up that isn't related to your personal tastes?

>There is NO """character action""" game
>There's only action games
oh wow, finally an intelligent poster....
with good gameplay (DMC, Bayo, Ninja Gaiden etc)
>mediocre ones (Souls, Sekiro, Monhun, etc)
aaaaand, you are fucking retarded
why the fuck does every fucking Yea Forumsirgin have to turn out to be a retard who just got lucky with saying a single or two intelligent sentence?

you clearly have the shittiest classification in your mind if you think games that put less emphasis on pure action and more on management/exploration/etc. have bad gameplay

no games on your "mediocre" or Bad" list are action games, they are either action role playing games or action adventure games

>There's only action games with
>good gameplay (DMC, Bayo, Ninja Gaiden etc)
shit games
>mediocre ones (Souls, Sekiro, Monhun, etc)
>bad ones (Ass Creed, Zelda, Witcher).
good games

It was more like, "I understand the appeal, but it seems limited compared to this alternative." Which it is in my opinion. Let bygones be bygones

don't go on the internet and lie
if you could keep DMC 4 enemies in the air for more than 10 seconds that would require you to practice it and that already completely contradicts your entire argument of not understanding the appeal

That's the point I was insinuating. Gameplay ≠ just combat.

By that logic Monster Hunter is also incredibly technical. You can do perfect charge point parry, etc. You can do solo run on Teostra. If Monster HUnter is spectacle, how about Nioh? How about Sekiro, how about Souls?

Everything can be made into spectacle regardless of the incentive. Donguri990 one of the best DMC player post combo videos on Tales game, does it mean Tales game is spectacle fighter? Spectacle is in the eye of beholder.

I enjoy that aspect of it a lot and really enjoyed the addition of The Void in DMC5. I lab things out in fighting games constantly; I want to learn how things work and what the optimal combo routes are in certain situations. In DMC I'm allowed to try even more stuff than in fighting games, because in fighting games going for style before damage is generally a bad decision but in a single player game that rewards varying things up you can do whatever as long as it gets the job done and the Style meter rising.

Of course I love playing matches in fighters and stages/bosses in action games, but that time where I can just sit down and crank out some combos on and off for a few hours is some real catharsis. I've put over 1000 hours into Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3's Training mode, about 8 or so of them being from just last month, and I'll put in more over time, not to mention the fact that I attempt to lab every character in every fighting game I own to the limits of my interest. The funny thing is that I don't play any of the DMC characters in Marvel 3, in fact I'm garbage with Dante & Vergil and barely know Trish combos.

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Their combat isn’t the focus of their games, unlike DMC and the others. This is basically an apples and oranges argument. No shit retard

I don't even own a PS4. Are you okay soiDYEL?

The problem I have with Bloodborne’s bosses compared to DS1 (and especially DeS)is that they all feel very samey, and less experimental. Sure Logarius and Gherman are fun fights but they both carry Artorias/Manus DNA, as do like 3/4 of the bosses in BB.
Of the more unorthodox bosses, only Micolash is interesting and really memorable, because fuck the witches and MYSTERYNIGGAS

Sure. I am sure you saw why I responded to your statement as I did because you didnt include your implied meaning in your original statment.

And I understand that you think deeper than some mouthbreathing retards that play fighting games for retarded reasons.

You seem alright user.

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Oh my god, you've never played Goobie.
Okay lol, we're done. Basic loops are simple because there's very little adjustment.

You misunderstand.
>The core of the gameplay is atmosphere, exploration, enemies, bosses, and combat
And you took challenge from that? The Souls games are the sum of their parts. No one plays DMC for the gripping narrative.

Because it's a well known fact those games arent praised for their combat dude, the Witcher 3 has had its combat criticized by reviewers but the quality of the rest of the game carries it, thanks to great writing and characterization,
For Zelda I guess well pick the last one which is BotW, a fully open world adventure paying homage to the first game and that offers inventive solution to enemy encounters encouraging use of the environment rather than direct 1 on 1 combat. So it's not the type of game where sticking Link in an empty arena would generate entertaining fights against enemies, the appeal comes from the use of the environment such as thunder or ice to your advantage.

>No one plays DMC for the gripping narrative.
People dont play souls game for their gripping narrative either. 95% of people who play souls game can't even comprehend the story without looking up youtube lore videos.

People play souls game to role play dressup as burly knight, fire mage, sorceres, etc, play goofy PvP and make jokes about amazing chest ahead.

The point of this thread was to hold other games with action elements to the standard of DMC, which is a major classification error. It would be like, "Let's compare this blues solo to a metal solo because they both have electric guitars", which I think is disingenuous. It also loaded its premise with "Gameplay = Just Combat", which is also silly.
Games should be evaluated against their peers. I don't say DMC is a shitty puzzle game, because that's fucking retarded.

>People dont play souls game for their gripping narrative
>Btw they watch someone dissect the story in minute detail
Stop.

and the point is that DMC is better at enemies, bosses and combat
obviously BB has more atmosphere and exploration and that is where the two differs. I guess a clear definition of gameplay is required to argue clearly but according to the criteria that guy offered, DMC still succeeds at more parts of gameplay than BB

>The point of this thread was to hold other games with action elements to the standard of DMC, which is a major classification error. It would be like, "Let's compare this blues solo to a metal solo because they both have electric guitars", which I think is disingenuous. It also loaded its premise with "Gameplay = Just Combat", which is also silly.
Exactly why I posted and and We agree user.

Even as a big fan of DMC that isn't very much into Soulsborne stuff, the only DMC games with overall good enemy design are 1 & 5.

We had threads where similar games were discussed but not frequently, mainly GoW, Darksiders, Bayonetta, LoS, etc.
But it's very rare

I consider a game where mechanics are useless and exist only for flair (IE dmc and bayo) to be absolute garbage. DMC has so many options but you never have to use ANY of them to complete the game. ninja gaiden definitely pushes you into using more skills to keep getting orbs but it too is pretty guilty of this. the souls games are so barren mechanically that you never really have a choice but to use everything you're given.

Im saying the core enjoyment of moment to moment gameplay is derived more from goofy PvP and playing dress up characters. People later watch lore videos to add the enjoyment.

I've never seen anyone who enjoy Souls lore without enjoying the gameplay, but I've seen plenty of people who enjoy Souls gameplay, dress up character building, play hundreds of hours of PvP but doesn't care about the lore.

Gonna keep using character action cause this is such a stupid thread and people know what you mean when you say character action and no, Dark Souls is not character action.

I don't think DMC has better enemies. Not only do so think BB has better enemies, I think it has much better enemies. BB enemies are genuinely haunting and getting caught by many if them off guard is instant death. The way in which you encounter them is much, much less predictable too.
Not even him.

You have to be stylish to complete the higher difficulties, i.e. you have to explore deeper options
I remember sticking with RG only back in DMC3 because I tend to like more defensive approaches, but the higher difficulties forced me to learn the other styles and utilize their strengths

Not even memeing here you would actually like DMC1

You like very tight games in the classic "here are all the tools you need. Here are the challenges you need to overcome" Style of games. DMC 1 is a very different game compared to the rest if the series.

Watch: youtu.be/b5v7NLT5fS0

>Zelda is an action game
The combat has always been like the 5th most important element of a zelda game, at most.

>doges
>dash behind you
>spam R1
compelling combat lads

Enemy design has never been a strongsuit of DMC, least of all compared to Souls.
>Im saying the core enjoyment of moment to moment gameplay is derived more from goofy PvP
The community at large disdains PvP. The Souls videos with the most views are story, and challenge videos.
>I've never seen anyone who enjoy Souls lore without enjoying the gameplay, but I've seen plenty of people who enjoy Souls gameplay, dress up character building, play hundreds of hours of PvP but doesn't care about the lore.
Anecdote to anecdote, I've seen just the opposite.

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Yet in terms of hours it absorbs a huge part of your playthrough

In terms of combat, absolutely not.
Bloodborne and Soulsborne in general do put a lot more thought into the level design and enemy placement though. That's the real strength of those games, not the core mechanics or the RPG elements.

i was mainly talking about combat design but sure BB has nice visual design in synergy with the game's aesthetic

Combat mechanics and enemy design are separate aspects of game design. A game can have varied and well-designed enemies even if the gameplay is incredible simple.

Souls is an RPG. Not a fucking action game.
Everything bad about the Souls games can be equated to it being action based series.
Don't even reply to me.

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What's the point of fancy enemy designs if they just play the same and do not have good back and forth interaction.

MIght as well look at a drawing. DMC implements enemy powers in unique way, Blitz, Fury, noclip scissors, etc. Even in term of art style you cannot argue that pic related has less strong artstyle and don't fit right in with any Souls game. I would say DMC enemy art design = Souls. DMC combat > Souls. Souls only win in level design and enemy placement (also PVP and lore)

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Post your favorite action games.
youtube.com/watch?v=AQVGcaghu0k

I don't think enemies are the problem in souls games really, even the skeleton enemies have a varied moveset from one type to another

>But the goal of monsterhunter isn't to fucking land that level 3 great sword charge. It is to break the fucking head or tail or capture to get more fucking materials. You are missing the point The goal of DMC is also not to land 20 reps of Side Star Raves.

The goal of MonHun is:
- hit the enemies
- dont get hit

In DMC is
- hit the enemies
- dont get hit
- hit it again slighly differently

Same shit, tomato təˈmeJtoʊ

How are bayo's mechanics useless? Have you played the game?

The reason for the decline in quality for the games you listed is because they go from pure action to action hybrids.

>bayonetta mechanics
>useless
What?

You're right. Every game should have one weapon. Even better, just one attack.

>I don't think enemies are the problem in souls games really
No it's not. The limited character movesets and interaction is. Imagine how cool it is if you can parry and disarm hollows with specific weapons. That you can do specific things with whips that you cannot do with swords. You know some enemies can be parried but not others? I wish souls can expand on that.

This is exactly what sets DMC apart. There's so many unique tailor made custom animations. You can parry assault's psycho crusher and grab them as Nero. You can deflect Vergil's summon sword. You can royal guard them. You can Shotgun slide into Vergil's Judgement Cut End. You can ride Behemoth as V and control him around. You can parry Furies in 17 different ways.

They are slightly different games. DMC wins in term of combat. Souls wins in terms of level design, enemy placement, world building, and I would say even boss buildup. Souls boss tends to be somebody with lore behind it, DMC boss is just I'm a fire demon, I'm an ice demon RAWR except Vergil and few others.

My personal Top 5 is:
1. Wonderful 101
2. NG Black/Sigma
3. Transformers Devastation
4. DMC5
5. DMC1/DMC3/God Hand (tie)

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Bayo won't let you score if you repeat the same action. You have to mix it up to get full points for the action

>Same shit, tomato təˈmeJtoʊ
Not really if you actually read the thread. The distinction has been clarified multiple times throughout this thread.

Since you like W101 so much, I have a legit question for you. It is unclear in W101 whether the slowdown is due to Witch Time or the Wii U just breaking apart from its toaster specs. There's so much hitstun that the game, especially on setpiece bosses feels laggy as shit and unreponsive. The Gergingha laser being the prime example, my game chugs to below 5 fps when the Witch time dodge is stacked onto framerate dips and generally unplayable.

W101 is a good package, but I feel like the combat is pretty tedious compared to the rest.

>Bayo won't let you score if you repeat the same action. You have to mix it up to get full points for the action
Technically no, but Bayo judges the combo on hit per hit basis. An XXXY combo counts as 4 different hits. So you can keep dodge offsetting XXXY combo and get maximum rank without penalties. The only way you get less than 100% multiplier gain if when something interrupt your combo offset, so you do X1, X2, interrupted, X1, X2 again.

>It is unclear in W101 whether the slowdown is due to Witch Time
What? Does dodging and the giant ass arrow mimicking a clock and the SCHWOOM and ticking sound effects not tip you off? Are you actually retarded?

The incentive argument is subjective.

In DMC style videos, people also don't play optimally. They play to show off to other people, through youtube. The game don't reward you from doing fancy jump cancel reps (in fact it punishes you from doing the same moves over and over again).

Same goes for MonHun. The game don't reward you from doing Guard Point. Lvl 3 charge greatsword do as much damage as couple of dozen hits from dual blades. But people still do it anyway because it looks cool and feels great to nobody but themselves.

I never had a problem with it chugging in my experience, but it has been a while since I ran through it. I know that Hero Time doesn't work 1:1 like Witch Time, mostly because it's an optional upgrade.

The combat has this weird balance of each tool being really simple but the sheer number of them and the expectation to use many of them in tandem being somewhat complex. I think it has the "first playthough is a tutorial" problem worse than almost any other game. Once you unlock all the Unite Morphs and different actions you have a crazy number of things you can do at any given time provided you have the Battery for it (which can be made more available if you learn Wonder Liner) and some are situational, some are staple combo extenders, some are better as assists than primary weapons, and some are basically only for style/combo enders.

>a faggot that doesn't know how to play, thinks his opinion on the genre matters

Games should be judged on how well they do the things they set off to do, and how does it compare to it's previous iterations
Some games have bad combat and that should be judged, but to tell it to be more like a different game because that has good combat is wrong, it should fix the problem it had and make it more enjoyable to maintain it's originality and soul

>They play to show off to other people, through youtube. The game don't reward you from doing fancy jump cancel reps (in fact it punishes you from doing the same moves over and over again)
you're proving your own point wrong here.

They aren't playing to do the best in the game. They are playing to impress their peers.
Which is playing against how the game was designed.

You can get SSS without having to do retarded fucking 1 frame jumpcancels to spam helmbreakers because the game wasn't designed like that.

Jesus.

So they are doing something different than the game is designed for that others think is impressive. Same with when someone can land 3 level 3 greatsword charges. You can break heads and tales more effectively if you chip away at it consistently than fucking trying to land the ultra mega hit all the time.

No matter how you frame this monster hunter and DMC are designed for different purposes. You fucking idiot.

No you're proving your own point wrong. You just described how BOTH dmc and monhun can be played against their respective design purpose to impress their peers.

This makes their respective genre characterization irrelevant, as if they're both action games with deep technical combat that should be judged on the same pedestal.

arguably complete fucking false

>Assassin’s Creed
>Good

This

>but to tell it to be more like a different game because that has good combat is wrong

Imagine if Witcher 3 has at least souls level combat, wouldn't it be nice

Imagine if Souls had Nioh combat rather than R1 spam, wouldn't it be nice

Imagine if Nioh had air combo and more strings like Ninja Gaiden, wouldn't it be nice

Imagine if Ninja Gaiden had dodge offset like Bayonetta, wouldn't it be nice