Melee or Ultimate? Why?

>Casual
Melee
>Competitive
Ultimate

Ultimate because I'm honestly pretty shit at melee.

this, any game not on the switch is better than the version on the switch.

Ultimate because melee is just too fucking hard. All that tech seems impossible to master, and I know I will NEVER, EVER be truly "good" at it.
...that aside, Melee is an incredible game with a very intense meta. They are still finding out new tricks to this day.
Ultimate has cleaner looks, sounds, a huge character roster and is just easier. Plus, ness isn't absolute trash in that one.

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Ultimate, because it doesn't rely on exploits and glitches to be playable.

3 different people made the same argument.
Melee is deep enough that is the best one to watch but not the best one to play for the average gamer.
Hence Ultimate>Melee

At least you guys are honest, unlike half the single digit IQ apes in this thread that can't admit they simply can't adapt to Melee.

Ultimate because of big croc cock pls buff him

Project +

Ultimate, because the "depth" melee offers came from a bunch of programming errors, and shitty hit boxes.

That and I’m shit at the game.

not everybody is a stupid zoomer memer. Some people actually discuss videogames.

Of course melee is the best one to watch, and I would ask the genie to make me a god at that one instead of ultimate. But ultimate skill ceiling is more balanced, letting me shine more and feel better, while still being deep enough and a fucking brilliant game.

Ultimate is the better game. Way more characters and stages,way more viable match ups, better graphics,online (even if its shit), 8 players and fucking BK is coming.
Ultimate is the better game, but melee is an unsurpassable classic,and I would argue it has the greater soul. I was never that good at it, but always better than my friends. I really wish i had known about the competitive scene when i was younger

This is what melee players have: dyslexia.

100% correct opinion.
Also ultimate has a huge soul potential. I already feel nostalgic for the mural music in classic after powering through them all to unlock all characters in the first day.

What did he even try to say?
I have no idea what the last two words are supposed to be.

>Melee because its .y childhood and i refusr to.move on or tale a bayb
Melee because its my childhood and I refuse to move on or take a bath

Can melee survive forever? Not that it isn’t loved, it is (to the point it’s overrated), but that the skill ceiling is so high that only so many could keep it going with the same passion of those who play it now.

I think it can, the old generation is already leaving space to the new one.
See Axe winning a major

sMelee or Ultimate? Why[shower]?

Axe winning a major isn't that surprising to me. I mean he has been a top player. The lack of newer top melee players seems like a problem imo.

Fuck of nigger

Never heard of any witch putting this in her cauldron

Fresh blood will always come in. Mango is still top notch. It just takes time for new players to be good because of the high ceiling and the veterans having 10k hours under their belt.
But Axe winning a major and Leffen winning EVO show that new blood can definitely thrive.

Lets be real, he won because he dodged hbox. Just like Wizzy wins by dodging mango. Bracket luck is a huge part of it

melee because I prefer fast fluid movement rather than rosterfaggotry

Melee if you want a good fighter Ultimate if you wanna dick around with a bunch of characters
Thread/

>/threading yourself
>while making one of the worst posts in the thread
>a post that's written like a fucking ESL shitter

You know it's true it's not even debatable

There's so many zoomers playing the game and becoming great, look at Zain

You are the first person I’ve heard use melee and fast fluid movement in a sentence together. It’s always felt chunky and sluggish despite how fast everything is.

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original

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It becomes fast and fluid once you learn the initial skillfloor, which you apparently haven't. Stick to your tr4sh2.0 zoomerbab

Melee.
I actually don't mind ultimate though. I just have some major issues with it.

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Why is this a thing with smash this happens in all "nerd hobbies" ever been to a card shop?

What a low iq argument, there is an item switch on every item in both games so your point is for lazy/dumb people who don't know where to find a menu, good for that incredibly small niche

Im ab hbox fan, i main jiggly in ultimate because of him. Saying that axe won because he didn't fight Hbox is ccomplete and utter bullshit. Axe is a god with pikachu, he has been consistently playing for years and now its finally payed off. He had an insane run and won because of his sheer skill, not because of bracket luck

Whatever makes you feel better you elitist twat.

Mods just go ahead and ban everyone in this thread

Maybe don't make fucking retarded statements if you have 0 idea how to play the game? It's extremely easy to emulate and learn the game, why not actually try?

>Umbrella
>Red Shell
>Balloon boy spinner
>Screwattack being throwable

wavelanding, wavedashing, dash dancing, jump momentum, L canceling
its all so responsive in melee to the point every smash afterwards feels slow and clunkey
but sakurai made it that way on purpose since he hates competitive fighting games

My niga.

PM is still the best competitive Smash out there.

I keep playing it in a daily basis (netplay at least)

I had gotten the hang of wavedashing/landing, and L canceling but I’d have to flick that C stick 3-4 times before getting a response. I hated the feeling and dropped the game.

I still prefer melee over ultimate. It just feels good to play compared to ultimate which is frustrating.

PPMD Only uses c-stick for down aerial, you can play the same way.

Forgot the fact I hate the buffer system in ultimate making it feel pretty unresponsive.

>ultimate buffer system
I hate it too. The only "good" thing about it is ftilt/utilt followups out of a throw are made easier. Everything else about it sucks, sometimes i'll accidentally roll after airdodging when hitting the ground and get punished for it.

Ultimate, 99% of Smash I play is with friends who are worse at it than me.

Nah, it boils down that I prefer Ultimate over melee. There’s too many things wrong with melee for it to deserve the praise it gets; wavedashing is a bug, hit boxes can be off character, the meta is too rigid. Most of this is exploitable, and to do so takes great skill, but that doesn’t make melee good. Overall, Ultimate is a better game with better balance, not perfect but objective better.

My first smash was Melee and I grow up with it but I prefer Ultimate in almost every way

>much more characters and stages. I think the character balance has never been better.
>Better graphics and more options to play
>Classic mode is much more fun to play through
>Stage builder (I know) and so many songs

I miss Fox melee voice and design and I miss Ocarina of Time Link. The only thing I would say is better in Melee is Adventure Mode, All Star mode and Trophy's. Oh also the announcer and the intro.

different user here, I can understand most of those arguments but not wavedashing is a bug. I'm not saying it isn't a bug but why would it being a bug make any difference?

Sakurai and the team knew about wavedashing before it was released, they just didn't think it'd have such a competitive impact. Also L-Canceling was purposefully introduced, as Z-Canceling was known about in Smash 64. Sure, there's some bugs, but there's a shitload in Ultimate as well. Game crashing, Icies 0-deaths, Diddy Kong's infinite, etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=sfQ75gr2znA

I won’t lie, that one is more personal. I personal don’t like to use it. It was never intended to exist in the game, by using it I’m winning by faulty means and that takes a lot out for me. I like to win, and I’m more competitive than I’ll openly admit, but I loath to win by bugs or "unfair" aspects.

I played a match against someone and got a chance to Spike, technically I hit but because the hit box went WAY of character and I paused and exit the game before he went down, and gave him the match.

I like Melee as an spectator but as a player Ultimate just feels better and looks better. I love how distinct each character plays from each other, yes even the clones. They really polished and captured their essence and personalities.The music and stage selection is godlike and don't even get me started on all the third parties we probably will never have together again in another video game.

They knew wavedashing is in the game, but it’s still a bug. They just didn’t have the time to fix it. Honestly, if the team had the game for as long as they needed it would be completely different.

It was known about and purposefully left in. You can't just admit you're bad and don't want to improve?

I have more fun in ultimate. Even if it is slower and has some meh mechanics, the positives of ultimate outweigh the positives of melee to me

Most bugs are purposely left in games. They have deadlines and have to prioritize which ones to fix. There was likely something more game breaking to fix over wavedashing. Also, yes, I’m bad at the game but all of my points still stand.

How is wavedash a bug?

Bug or not, it's not visually pleasing to watch characters moonwalk from one edge of the screen to the other. Impressive if you account for the technical skill, but it looks retarded and that's a turn off for me.

It was cause by Kirby sliding in his rock form, the issue is that it was coded directly into the physics, so all characters could slide, they tried to change it but it was still possible. However, game developers don’t have all time in the world and have to pick and choose which bugs to fix. They left wavingdasing assuming that it likely wouldn’t discovered or have a massive impact on the game. They should have seen what Luigi can do.

What the fuck is this post

Didn't they remove it in a 1.2 version of Melee or was that a different feature?

Anyone who says Melee is a poser. Ultimate has surpassed it in everything BUT the single player. And that’s literally only cause of Target Test.

>better balance
>larger roster
>mechanics a nice balance between fast and fluid, allowing for spontaneous combos, as well as new tools and options that allow for way more viable characters
>roster of 82 characters
>BANJO FUCKING KAZOOIE
>even low tiers are viable
>stage builder is awesome
>way more tourney viable stages
>online for those who want it
>thriving competitive scene worldwide
>better visuals
>less broken jank
>playstyles and archetypes not even existent in Melee

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Unironically can't understand people who find melee difficult. Taking off a stock with 1 or 2 neutral interactions is easier then you think, and the execution isn't that hard. If you can't competently press L 7 frames before landing, airdodge out of jump squat, or wiggle the stick in a certain direction while being combo'd, then I can only imagine how bad you people are at any other game.

melee's roster is better than ultimate

No? Wavedashing is left in. They even had a chance to patch it out in the newer version, and didn't.
Good bait

melee mechanics are better than ultimate

Let's see you beat any competent player, Ultimate has 0 mechanics to learn besides maybe attack canceling, even that is niche and not hard to pull off

Even if bait, you’re still a retard.

Ultimate literary has everything Melee has, but with all the dogshit characters buffed toward being viable, AND 55 more characters that you can also play competitively.

offline : ultimate
online : melee

If melee had Lucas, you would be correct to make this statement.
Too bad it came out half a decade later.

Melee has better online than ultimate will ever have, low tiers are viable in Melee, stage builder is shit, visuals is subjective and doesn't change gameplay, Melee has had a bigger and better competitive scene far before Ultimate and will, Ultimately outlive it. Ultimate also has less mechanics and is a slower game overall.

Just admit you can't put the time and effort into getting good at Melee and took the easy way out by enjoying a worse game. Buyers remorse is a dangerous thing.

Subjetive opinion. Ultimate’s mechanics still allow for “muh freedom of expression and creative spontaneous combos”:

youtu.be/tN4HP1er3Dk

While removing a lot of the jank that made more than half of Melee roster useless.

B A S E D
Ultimate zoomers and trannies need to die

just because ultimate has all the melee characters and more doesn't mean it's better
melee's roster is classic and all the characters, even the bad ones, complement each other
ultimate's roster is soulless, melee's has soul

Is L cancelling a bug? Or do you just think anything that requires time and effort is a bug because you can't cope.

cringe

No, they knew about it and purposefully implemented it. Z-Canceling is a thing in Smash 64, not that you'd know, and it was intentional.

Ult is more fun, melee is more competitive. Since I don't attend tourneys, I prefer Ultimate.

I've been playing since the N64 game and I pick Ultimate.

>melee if you want a good fighter
>ultimate if you want a lot of good fighters
based incidentally correct user
it's fox, get it?

>low tiers are viable
lol no

Explain to me why people refer to melee combos as “muh freedom of expression and creative spontaneous combos”

ibdw just got 4th at summit dude

Fox hasn't even been oppressive at the top levels of play

>low tiers are viable in Melee
No???
Nice samefag.

Allow me to explain better.

Getting the effect for Kirby sliding on inclines carried over to other characters. It takes a specific set of circumstances to get the same effect out of other characters but it stems from the same, unrelated issue. They decided not to change it, but it’s still a bug.

>Melee has better online
Melee has no official online. And only scrubs play online, now matter how good your netcode is. Irl is still the best experience.

>low tiers are viable in Melee,
No they are not. Kirby, Game&Watch, Pichu, Bowser, and Zelda say hello.

>stage builder is shit,
It’s not.

>visuals is subjective
Visuals are pretty much the one thing that’s literally objective in games you retard. Better graphics aside, all the characters are much more animated in Ultimate, bringing a lot more personality to the front.

>and doesn't change gameplay,
It affects the enjoyment.

>Melee has had a bigger and better competitive scene
It literally does not. Ultimate is currently the most popular fighting game in the world, and has an enormous scene where I live, Japan, aka, where it matters.

>far before Ultimate and will, Ultimately outlive it.
Nope.

>Ultimate also has less mechanics
Does not.

>and is a slower game overall.
Not significantly, and not in an obnoxious way. You still have a lot of spontaneity and fast combos.

>Just admit you can't put the time and effort into getting good at Melee and took the easy way out by enjoying a worse game. Buyers remorse is a dangerous thing.

Kid. I don’t need to “put the time” to get good at Melee. I’ve been playing it since my first Gamecube back in 2002. Ultimate is the game Brawl should have been. Melee has finally been surpassed.

So you understand why I asked you in the first place. Now switch L cancelling with wave dashing, would you still bitch and moan about it if it was intended. Because either way whether or not it was intended, wavedashing is only another mechanic like L cancelling. You don't just win the game since you know how to do it, like L Cancelling it takes time and effort to implement. Are you simply unable to do that and just use the "wavedashing is a bug" as a scapegoat to avoid that reality. Because I can't see why you wouldn't be able to accept the fact that wavedashing could be seen as something other than a bug.

Ne

Beats me, but I hear it from streambabies all the time.

Never said L canceling was a bug.

>top levels of play
it's almost like 99% of players will never play at top autistic tournament levels, crazy

Yeesh Melee tech isn't THAT hard guys no one's expecting you to be a top player whose spent 10 years grinding
As long as you can L cancel, wavedash, and jump cancel grab/shine you should be fine and you can learn these in a couple hours

Or you can play a game where all of those options have been streamlined to be more accessible: Ultimate.

>Nope
>Does not.
>It literally does not.
>It's not.
>Kid.
I know this is probably bait but considering the people who play smash right now I don't even know anymore.

Streamlined just code for dumbed down

There is such a thing as “being too obtuse.”

You don’t deserve lengthy answers for blind contrarianism user. If you’re not gonna put any effort into developing your PoV beyond “it’s shit cause it’s not Melee” why the fuck should I bother?

Even the top players are dropping Melee for Ultimate. It’s obvious which of the two is better.

I wasn't the dude you were replying to, I just think you could have explained your points better.

No shit IRL is better retard, everyone knows that and that wasn't the point to begin with. The fact that Melee can have better online than nintendo is beyond laughable.
Every low tier beyon the few you mention also say hello.
I'm really glad they use stage builder in tournaments, oh wait.
1 year of tournaments is nothing against the past 18 YEARS of melee history.
Name 5 mechanics unique to ultimate besides the power shield change.
Ultimate will NEVER last as long as melee, that is a fact.

STFU, you melee-married, hand-harming, stink-storming, FOXTROTTING FUCKTARD!!!

Which points exactly. Saying “stage builder is shit” and replying with a simple “it’s not” to what’s basically troll bait is the most deserving reply to a post like that.

Change your pants retard.

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L cancelling is kinda suspect, it's kinda just an extra execution barrier really, but wavedashing feels really intuitive and makes sense within the context of the game's physics. It just feels good man.
Jump cancel grab is kinda obtuse I guess but it's also piss easy.

Ultimate has playable King K.Rool
So Ultimate wins

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Well I understand why and here is my input. Both games have their own mechanics that make them deep, but Ultimate is far simpler compared to Melee. 'muh freedom of expression' is because DI is really strong in the game, so many combos are read based, unlike Ultimate's bread and butter. Let's take this for example: youtu.be/UC1zRgOjYY4 ; There's no video that tells you how to do that. s2j had to react and predict his opponent techs in order for that combo to happen, and at the same time, and for that he has to have knowledge of his character movement, knockback percents, frames, etc. It's something that flows naturally based on your experience in the game, but at the same time it comes from a high skill level, so not your everyday casual or average competitor can do it. In the video you linked, many of the interactions were one-sided, or far too simple and straightforward. If an unconventional one read, three piece combo interaction is what's considered the apex of hype in ultimate, no wonder Melee people are unimpressed by the newest title.
And I guess I don't have to explain 'creative spontaneous combos'. Melee does have many streamlined/notebook combos/interactions too. But at the end of the day, creativity is a constant in that game.

No U! Ya pants-pooing, tech-tarding, shower-shying, thumb-thrashing... WAVEDASHING WANKSTAIN!!!

>Every low tier beyon the few you mention also say hello.
>the few
>literally 1/5 of the roster
>those exact characters are not only better, but also really fun in Ultimate, with two being top tier
>I'm really glad they use stage builder in tournaments, oh wait.
OP asked which game was better. Which includes casual play. It’s an overall judgement of both games as complete packages. Which is also why online was mentioned.
>1 year of tournaments is nothing against the past 18 YEARS of melee history.
This is not a point in your favor. It’s a point in Ultimate’s favor. It’s still got a fledgling meta. Or were you not around for preWavedash Melee? Judging by your posts, it doesn’t seem like you even know Shiek was THE top tier once, and people thought Jiggs was trash.

>Name 5 mechanics unique to ultimate besides the power shield change.
Acting out of Dash freely, it’s a game changer. Ledge Trumping. The parry. Not needing L-Cancels. Foxtrotting. B-Reversing. Character unique tech, like Ken’s cancels, or Zelda’s use of ledge cancelling.
>Ultimate will NEVER last as long as melee, that is a fact.
You sure about that? It’s very likely this might be the LAST Smash game. In which case, it just might. If Nintendo intends to support the Switch for as long as they say, the game will last over a decade at least.

>wavedashing feels really intuitive
Not at ALL. Wavedashing requires hours of muscle memory to effectively and consistently pull off AND it’s not even useful or consistent with every character.

This is such bullshit. I am outright garbage at the game but once I got a decent explanation on wavedashing I’d screw it up 2/10. For every character.

That’s cause the meta is more developed, but as you can see here:

youtu.be/tN4HP1er3Dk

Ultimate is certainly not lacking in the spontaneous combo department. Honestly, for as much as Melee diehards like to throw shade at Ultimate players for “not being able to adapt to Melee” it’s they who in fact refuse to adapt to or even learn Ultimate. Which is shameful really. Melee has been my favorite game of all time since 2002, but the bandwagon streambabies have left such a sour taste in my mouth, I really don’t like being associated with fans kf that game anymore.

melee players don't need you and you won't be missed
when ultishit dies and you come crawling back to melee I'll laugh

You are far to sensible and self aware for this thread. You sure you play melee?

It’s not like (you) play Melee anyway, so it’s not like there’s much to be missed really. Most Melee tryhards stick to netplay only, or live in Commiefornia. I live in Tokyo where the Melee scene is basically dead, and everyone plays Ultimate. I think I’ll be fine.

I tried to bring a fair argument as to why Melee's more competitive, but you seem to deviate due to your emotions/experiences. Also I stated that creativity is a constant in Melee, but I realize that it's in Ultimate too. I think my conclusion is that both games have their strengths, but Melee's ultimately more faster and complex than Ultimate, and that may or may not change in the future depending on Ultimate development.

Ultimate. Picked up melee again just to try it and it's way too slow, floaty, and when you get smashed it forces you off the screen.

Anyone who still wants to play that shit is just shit at the newer games and refuses to let go of past glory of being good at melee.

The lack of buffer in Melee makes it hard to go back to after playing modern fighting games.

Melee feels better to play.

Not with that lack of buffer it doesn’t. It’s too clunky and janky.

melee for mechanics and comp
ultimate for everything else

Ultimate. While Melee does require more skill, most of it's tech feels more like exploits that the game isn't balanced around, the metagame was also extremely boring to watch as result of this gravitating players towards only a few viable characters that can work in the tech-heavy meta. While yes it is far more complicated to master than the other entries in the series, it also doesn't hold a candle to real fighting games.
Ultimate is probably the best representation of what Smash is intended to be. Shame the online sucks.

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Ultimate has a thriving competitive scene all over the world, Melee has a niche stagnant one based in west coast USA.

Ultimate.

I agree with slow part but characters fall like bricks in melee and overall survivability in Ultimate can be seen as a negative.

Careful. That pill is gonna be hard for some to swallow. We don’t want anybody choking.

Ultimate's metagame is way more cancer than melee's and combos stop working after about 20% thanks to balloon knockback and almost non existent hitstun. Opponent being able to nair or airdodge out of your combos when they're above like 25% is retarded. Before falcon got buffed last patch half of his moves couldn't follow up with anything.

Ultimate is like going to Disneyland and Melee is that hiking spot on the mountain only you know about. Good for different reasons.
I play them both regularly and also play Smash 64.

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>Ultimate's metagame is way more cancer than melee's and combos stop working after about 20%
Blatantly false:

youtu.be/tN4HP1er3Dk

Choke on those words. Maybe you should just git gud.

I fucking love Melee and and I'm happy that Axe won a major, but I stick to Ultimate cause it has my favorite character to play as in it

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Melee is for autistic people only.

Most of those aren't even combos, they're just hits followed by reading what the opponent will do next. Maybe a jab reset here and there. The only characters with actual true combos are the shotos and ice climbers, and the latter relies on janky nana AI. Ken being buffed last patch is a breath of fresh air though, hope to see more of him.

>git gud
I'm elite on a quarter of the roster. Feel free to 1v1 me. 56TXU password 7234

>The only characters with actual true combos are the shotos and ice climbers
Don't forget this fucking blimp

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>Feel free to 1v1 me. 56TXU password 7234

Sorry. On my way to a club to meet some sexy Asian bitches. Maybe next time, loser.

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The actual bugs can be counted one one hand. Stop calling every cool mechanic a bug you fuckstain. All the shit you've mentioned has been debunked years ago.
Let's pretend those are bugs and confirmed as such instead. So fucking what? They became tools that gave Melee the depth it needed to become one of the longest running scenes ever. You Dev intentfags are the fucking worst, you genuinely advocate for games to be worse either as a coping mechanism for your shittiness, or because you are a literal brainlet who's using an appeal to authority fallacy with some sprinkles on top.
Good thing we don't need to have this discussion in the first place because those aren't, and have never been, bugs

>Most of those aren't even combos
I think you don't know what a combo is

I probably should've said that most characters don't have kill combos. Sure, a lot of them have moves they can string together at low percentages, but after that it's basically just a cat fight and reading how an opponent will roll or when they will airdodg. Wario does have kill combos sometimes only because of his fart mechanic.

Whatever you say Chang. Hope you can make it another day in the sweatshop without offing yourself.

>I think you don't know what a combo is
No most smash players don't know what combos are.

Moves that link into eachother where the opponent can't act out of them is a combo. Hitting your opponent and punishing them for reacting how you thought they would is a read. Most of those clips are good reads.

>Chang having hair on their arms
Don’t be silly user. I’m a white guy in Tokyo. Literally living the dream.

Smash doesn’t really have true combos due to DI. Those are combos under Smash terminology.

I guess you're right. I've survived some pretty insane shit. Plus I've managed some recoveries to the ledge just barely with the help of air dodging up

Oh shit. You just made me realize Banjo’s recovery will be better than most think.

Side B > Up B > Jump > Air Dodge

not him but that's literally not what combo has meant in the context of smash ever. maybe in ultimate, but 64, melee, brawl and even 4 to an extent had potent real combos. ultimate's combo game sucks ass due to having basically no hitstun and ridiculous knockback.

>he said after watching a video of combos

what are you up to there? I met my wife there, moving there again soon.
日本語話せる?

i didnt watch a video of combos i watched a video of retards getting read. if jab comboed into falcon punch then falcon wouldnt be bottom tier

Melee does not have rosterfags, but Ultimate is easier to get good at

melee because Sonic, Tails, Toad, Metal Mario, Banjo, etc

>and ridiculous knockback.
Which doesn't even exist at low percent or even mid percent, but I'm a Wario main so maybe I can't speak for it

Ultimate because I take showers and wear deodorant.

wario actually has kill combos though and has the luxury of being one of the few characters where moves combo until like 50-60 which is why he's so fucking good. slap clap brap is certain death

Wavedashing being bug hasn’t been debunked, if so show me and I’ll be more than willing to admit it. The meta being to rigid is a fucking fact about the game and so is hit box be shite.

>you genuinely advocate for games to be worse
Your legit lack self awareness is astonishing. Bad hit box would be condemned in any other game, but melee players just can seem to cope that their favorite game is fundamentally flawed. Flawed IN THEIR FAVOR sure but still flawed and I had already said clearly that it takes skill to achieve most of the tech. What we have is a difference of opinion based on facts.
You like wavedashing, I don’t.
You don’t mind the extending hit boxes, I don’t.
You like all the janky things one can preform with hours of practice, I don’t.

Not even the Dark Souls fan base is so far up its own ass to look down on players for not wanting to sink hours in a game when they learn it’s a matter of preference.

Outright if I had to choose one and not both? Melee.

The depth of mechanics and controllability available in the game makes it so much more fun and rewarding to play, and for me that makes it have infinitely more replay value than any of the games that came after it. In melee you're only limited by the time you put into learning the game, and thats why its great. Whereas any game after it is intentionally limited to lower the skill ceiling so more casual players don't feel left out.

These things VASTLY outweigh any bonus you get from balance patches, more characters, more stages or other exaggerated content because the base game with Melee offers so much within itself. Is Melee unbalanced? Sure. That goes without saying. You can only win tournaments about to the mid tier, but honestly that's not a problem because even if you're not winning (and most of us arent, that includes you fags who cry about balance even in your own games) its still far more rewarding and FUN to play because it doesn't intentionally limit the player or what they can do with their characters. Until you're a top player, balance doesn't matter anyways, it's pointless whining because you lack the skill to figure out matchups in the first place, and that goes for Ultimate too.

I play both and enjoy both, but just sayin.

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my mistake, sorry i didn't consult my handy dandy smash translator guide.

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This pick made me laugh more than it should have.

next time i go to a local im gonna use this terminology

They likely already do if they play melee.

They likely already do if they play ultimate.

I'm not him but I can prove it through pure logic.

Wavedashing as an action is a pure result of the physics engine and the individual characters grip on the ground. Go into training mode and put a bunny hood on Luigi, Run, then try to come to a stop. You'll see that Luigi slides a lot, now go with Zelda, Fox or other characters and do the same thing. You'll see that they almost immediately come to a stop. This is because the individual traction varies on each character that allows them to slide.

Why am I saying this? because that's all wavedashing is. It's your aerial momentum from airdoding into the ground. In melee, characters KEEP their Aerial momentum when moving. You can see this by running and jumping with the faster characters in the game. When you get good at it, your airdodge will be so fast that you'll translate it into a further slide because you dont waste time with the airdodge being in the air, most of the momentum will be translated into the ground as a slide because of the characters traction.

To further their point, wavedashing was found during the debugging phase of the game, and Iwata and Sakurai themselves chose to keep the ability to do it in the game. It's a exploit of the physics in the game, and IS unintentional, but that doesn't make it a bug or a glitch, it's simply and exploit. Those 2 are not mutually exclusive. A exploit is not automatically a bug/glitch, it's simply a unintended consequence of 2 mechanics put together. A glitch in the game is the black hole glitch, Mewtwo using his side b to pull ppl under the stage, or ice climber sfreeze glitch. Not a result of momentum carried into the traction physics, both which are intentional.

They likely already do if they play children's party games competitively.

Based

So Brawl then, good choice, i like the mods.

Melee sucks. Can’t even use the c stick in training mode. Also half the characters suck, and even the high tiers have some moves that suck or just don’t function rigjt. Project M is the best smash.

based

Ultimate is better for casuals, Melee is better for competitive players.

There was an interview in a 2008 issue of Nintendo power where Sakurai says he was aware of wavedashing during development but opted to keep it in. It wasn't something he explicitly programmed, but rather it's just a consequence of the way airdodging and momentum in that game works. If he thought it was an unintended feature he would have just removed it or made it functionally useless like he did in Ultimate.

He removed it in Brawl because, according to him, he had no idea it would become such a staple of skilled Melee play and also thought it gave skilled players too much of an edge over casuals. It wasn't a feature he liked, so he removed it. Just like he removed edgehogging for example.

Shower.

>Just like he removed edgehogging for example.
I'll say that I actually like Ledge Trumping but I genuinely don't understand why it was nerfed in Ultimate
A mechanic that was underutilized in sm4sh is basically nearly irrelevant now

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melee because its very unique and replayable, cant ever get tired of it. Ultimate is a great effort but the online is lacking and the game is the 3rd iteration of a game engine that is now very polished but somewhat limiting.

Its a bit hard to determine as Ultimate is still “being developed”.

what about the numerous techs that are banned from melee. how is that good if its literally banned for you to play as good as you can because the game is broken?

Melee when I'm playing with my gamer friends. Ultimate for solo online 1v1s and playing with casual friends

I can counter this argument with even a simpler form of logic. I don’t agree with your definition exploits. An exploit is a bug or glitch used in the players favor and is typically unintended by the designer. That fact that it was left in by the designers doesn't make it any less of a bug or a glitch.

We can sit and argue semantics but unless we can agree on a definition on these terms we this argument can carry one forever.

yes there are like 4 entire banned glitches that are hard to perform and weren't discovered until several years after melee stopped getting revised bug fixed releases. the game is broken. phenomenal logic.

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Project M will always hold a special place in my heart. Many a late night spent smoking copious amounts of weed while learning the game with my brothers. Pissed off everyone with Samus footstool bomb combos.

I mean, thats your OPINION, and thats fine but you're FACTUALLY wrong. A exploit by definition simply means to take advantage of, that's it. It does not expressly by actual english definition mean bug/glitch.

A glitch/bug in a game is something that interrupts play or causes the game to act in unintended way outside normal operation. Such as, freezing the game, or causing loss of control of characters, items or interactivity with the stage by example.

Wavedashing does not fit this in any way whatsoever, because it does not ever stray from the normal games coding. You can open it up in action replay and bring up debugger, or even on dolphin. When you wavedash, and physically see with your OWN TWO EYES, that the game feeds you back no error when you airdodge into the ground and slide. If there was, the games own debugger made by Hal laboratories themselves would process an error out for the developers to see. The game has a section of code named for it, it's called Landfall special in the developer debug mode.

You are factually wrong.

>If he thought it was an unintended feature he would have just removed it
This isn’t necessarily true, no game is perfect at launch, especially older games and many modern games. Modern games have an advantage over older games in the form of patches. Since older games didn’t have this option they have to pick which bugs to fix and despite all bitching wavedashing isn't game breaking.

Melee did have this option. It had 3 re-releases that all aimed to fix buffs until 2003 and in none of the releases did he "fix" wavedashing despite being well aware of it.

melee did have patches and wavedashing wasnt removed in melee 1.1, 1.2 or PAL.

Ultimate
More characters, better maps, less tryhards

Melee. Gameplay is more important than content and Melee just feels so much better to control.

I hate how certain matchups have no fucking edgeguard potential. If I play Ike against someone with a godly recovery I either just let them get back or go for a super unreliable 2frame hit.

Yeah if your fuckin' retarded. I'm literally a country bumpkin and I can do that shit all day.

And yeah, don't let motherfuckers lie to you, wavedashing is still viable in Ultimate, motherfuckers just refuse to try to use it.

BASED
Fuck ultimate trannies and their inability to learn

Ultimate. It has more than 5 characters.

>Ike
>against someone with a godly recovery
Curious, which characters would those be? I always figured Ike could edgeguard fairly well with his disjointed range
I assume it might be teleport recoveries like Palutena

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People have been explaining the whole thread how wavedashing is just a natural consequence of a ground airdodge, that it was intended and left on purpose, because OF FUCKING COURSE they intended for something to happen when you airdodge towards the ground in a game where you have a literal friction value for every character. It fucking slides, color me surprised.
But you are completely deaf and blind, you keep repeating "s-still not intended though" for no reason while keeping shouting about muh hitboxes without providing even a single example, and pretending Ultimate is somehow exempt from that. Clearly you don't want to change your mind, and you don't have a single leg to stand on, just random word vomit about muh wavedashes muh jank and bugs muh not intended, like every single anti-melee fag on the planet.
Keep consuming the product Nintendo wants you to like a good goy, hope you have fun with perfectly polished and intended experiences like Ultimate and the fact the c-stick is STILL a macro and STILL doesn't fucking work for drift away aerials, or the amazing Smash 4, a game that is 95% neutral where the neutral sucks and consists of running > shield and spamming safe aerials because the lack of dashdancing and wavedashing make footsies impossible (but don't worry, they'll be back in Ultimate as pale shadows of their former selves and you'll be allowed to enjoy them as this time they have the Sakurai Stamp of IntentionTM)

Sm4sh

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>Wavedashing requires hours of muscle memory
This isn't a bad thing. Just rewards more dedicated players.
>AND it’s not even useful or consistent with every character.
Some characters aren't good at running and their jumpsquat windows are different too.

It's not viable in ultimate. There's basically no point in doing it because you can act out of dashes immediately using any attack. Plus he explicitly made it so that airdodges have a shitton of end lag so even if you wavedash you can't actually execute any moves out of it until a literal half second later. Plus he also made it so wavelands can't fall off of platforms.

Literally find me footage of someone good at the game using wavedashes in their play or even SAYING it's a good option or even a situational option. It isn't. It's garbage.

streamable.com/6sj4x

Also, Mkleo uses it quite a bit. Great job being a retard

I’d rather dick around in Melee

>You can wavedash behind a ganondorf charging a forward smash in a place that would have never hit falcon anyway

Stop the presses it's actually an insane move because you can use it to dab on retards

I prefer edgehogging to trumping it forced characters to mixup their recovery. I know it wasnt a perfect system but ideally every recovery would be like falcons not literally though. Falcon's recovery is really linear but if you go high you can really mix up where you land. Your opponent has to guess where you're going. Is he going for the ledge,the edge cancel,or top platform?

Kek, implying you're any good at the game, or any game in general.

you cant act immediately out dashes there's 6 (i think) frames before you can act out of dash.

Over all Melee is the better game but there are things I like more about Ultimate, so it isn’t a complete waste of time to play like Brawl and Tr4sh, which is a huge relieve because I had pretty much given up in the series before Ultimate came out.

Ultimate.
Roster and more friendly to a casual audience IE: my friends.

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kek literally explain to me how that ganondorf f smash would have hit him. any getup option would have avoided it except full hop jump and in the time it took him to do that falloff > wall jump > waveland he could have just done a roll getup and just grabbed him. it's not practical.

wavedash into the ground and try using a move, there's still way more lag than using moves out of dashes. this was by design, he did not want wavedashes to have any utility.

I assume that trumping was added probably because of some really shit tier recoveries in sm4sh (Mac, Ganon, Dr. Mario, etc.)

You know one thing I hate about ultimate is that it takes so long to play the damn game. Wanna play friendlies? Gotta setup your tag, gotta pick the stage, gotta pick your character wait 1 minute. Then when the games is over you gotta select start from selecting the stage again and if someone else has to join they have to put their tag in too.

I also don't like how ass the training mode is, but its been like that every game not like thats an excuse.

Also the online if fucking terrible. I want to play a competitive style match of quick play? Nope some fucking twat trying farm me for GSP with his gimmick ricther on a 3 minute game.

Ultimately I like watching melee and playing melee more but I am ass at the game and scene is dead here. I'm not saying I dont enjoy ult its just that melee is better.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm just correcting you its not instantaneous

So instead of giving them better recoveries they make an entirely new mechanic?

>So instead of giving them better recoveries they make an entirely new mechanic?
That sounds entirely in line with how Sakurai thinks
Doesn't help that Mac's design is incredibly shit so he was boned from the start

Because smash makes people mad

Too bad your movement through the air in ultimate is shitty.

I mean, honestly, why do you people try to pretend this isn't the case? Pick Captain Falcon in both Melee and Ultimate and run around and jump in both. Melee has better movement dude. It's that simple. That's why Melee and PM are more fun.

I still like Ultimate alot but you guys really are dishonest as fuck about this sort of thing.

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Brother I'm sorry you feel that way. Now, you're not entirely wrong, it's not as powerful as an option as it used to be, but it's still viable. Try incorporating it if you ever get bored.

I find it useful for minute spacing against aerials over dash back simply because dashing has a set distance. Oftentimes, I end up dashing further away than anticipated, plus, in doing so my direction changes. A simple wavedash back will suffice in that instance, for me that is.

I really recommend experimenting with it. You can easily wavedash with characters that don't have a tether by using the grab button. For characters with a tether, I set my shield to X (on the GameCube controller) so as soon as I jump, I slide over to X to initiate the wavedash.

The trick is to shorthop, if you longpress the jump button, it won't work.

mac is probably the worst design decision in smash after fucking tripping.

I really want a documentary about smash's development to see why everything is the way it is. Like why samus' multihits never work or why they nerfed worlfs downsmash by like 2% every patch.

>liking floaty shit

>he actually thinks buffers give you better control
They don't dude. Input buffers make games less responsive. They're there for people that just mash inputs without any care in the world and hurt those of us that actually have intent behind each and every input.

Care to explain what makes input buffers so great? I'm really interested in your ignorant opinion on input buffers.

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>liking the stage have the gravitational pull of a black hole

>t.

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Melee emulation actually has less input delay than real hardware so playing online with people in the same region can feel exactly the same as irl. Lots of high level players practice online.

No that's ultimate where you can recover from anything less than an fsmash at 300%

Anyone want to play?

not that guy, but
>buffer an input
>move comes out asap
>without buffer in inputs you have to be extremely precise to perform some sequences of moves

I don't understand what you mean by less responsive. Maybe just stop fucking mashing buttons then complaining that the move you mashed came out?

Me do, but my internet is dialup tier. Someone set up a lobby or whatever it's called?

If you mean Melee sure

Sure. You have Slippi?

Ultimate has Banjo and K. Rool. I think I know the answer.

Ultimate. More characters, more stages, more fun. I don't play Smash for single player, so the lack of it doesn't matter to me.

FXG7F
1233
Sorry I meant Ult. Got no GCC for melee

You can pirate on the switch you dum-dum

It's always gonna be 64, melee, pm vs the newest smash

Too tired to argue, that I’m clearly in the wrong on this matter. I’ll give you that wavedashing isn’t a bug but I’ll still hold to the fact that an exploit can be bug/glitch.
See above about wavedashing. About hitboxes I don’t need to remind you of Marth’s grab, Dorf’s d-air extends to his entire torso, and the fact hungrybox wins because of Jiggly’s funky back air, and I personal used Captain Falcon and his d-air had a habit of extend pass his feet and off too the side a bit.

I still believe that Ultimate is a better made game, but I think I’ll stick to Breath of Wild as my Nintendo game and play MTG when I want to get competive.

Melee is doomed to eventually fall out of non-Smash events (CEO is about the only Multi-Game Major still running it I think?), but it will probably be in Smash-only Majors/Super Majors forever.

Which is fine, it has its niche audience and players. Can't really expect much else from an almost 20 year old game that still needs CRTV's.

Give me one ho up, gotta hook my shit up.

Once low input delay monitors get cheaper, tournaments would be able to switch to using Dolphin and keep the scene alive.

CRTV's are only half the problem user
not many people outside of the hardcore Smash scene really give a fuck about Melee anymore.

1. Melee is a fucking bugfest. I'm not talking about "wahhh, all this stuff like wavedashing and L-canceling shouldn't be in the game" I mean there's a character whose grabs simply fucking fail on use, there's a character who deletes you from spacetime by pressing side-b, or the one who sometimes just doesn't go up from an upsmash and slides around like he's on ice. I mean the moves that simply go through the enemy while making a hit effect with no damage because fuck you.
2. I just like mega man a lot and he's really well represented and has great music.

Project M

Nobody:

Not a single soul:

Not even God himself:

Smelly Melee players: oUr game tAKes SkIlL, ouR MeCHaNics arEN't BUGS

>Twitter memes
Fuck off, normalfag.

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Melee tournaments generally get more viewers than Ultimate, and I guarantee half of them don't play the game. It's a very interesting spectator game

I could see that. Ultimate is slower but we can see some decent combos go off.

Most melee matches are typical nobody engages for like two minutes, getting combo out, or playing one side pong when someone gets knocked off stage. Often in that order.

>I mean there's a character whose grabs simply fucking fail on use
> there's a character who deletes you from spacetime by pressing side-b
I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about here.

>or the one who sometimes just doesn't go up from an upsmash and slides around like he's on ice
I assume you're talking about the Invisible Ceiling Glitch. It triggers under very specific circumstances and it's 100% consistent. It's not random or anything.
Hell, Luigi isn't the only character that can trigger ICG, it's just that his low friction makes it easier to perform.
It happens when you hit someone's shield and go airborne immediately after. All vertical knockback is cancelled until you land and stay on the ground for a certain number of frames.

>I mean the moves that simply go through the enemy while making a hit effect with no damage because fuck you
It's called a phantom hit. It's not a glitch in any way. It's just bonus % for an attack that would otherwise miss.

I don't mean to shit on you or anything, but there's a huge amount of misinformation about Melee's mechanics and glitches.
There's a plethora of bugs, but few people who criticize it have any idea what they're really talking about.

If anything, it's impressive that Melee isn't glitchier, considering the rushed development time.

>falling for bait
>posting normalfag splatoon shit
Yikes, go back normalfag

The raw gameplay of Melee is better, but I think Ultimate is better overall. The gameplay of Ultimate is "good enough" that the extra characters and stages can make up for the difference between the two.

>Most melee matches are typical nobody engages for like two minutes
This is entirely inaccurate.

project m is better than both
melee has a set in stone balance but fox is getting dominated now and is being replaced.
melee has smash ladder which is god tier online.
ultimate has shit online even worse than smash 4 and you have to pay for it.
more characters in ultimate that you won't play.
comp scene is cheaper for melee since a crtv is 10 usd and a gamecube with game is 150 retail used.
ultimate is 350 for switch and game.
comp scene for ultimate is still in it's baby form but we shall see.
melee is faster than ultimate and feels better to play.
melee has a community (good and bad) while ultimate might only exist while it is supported (we will see, also more people in ultimate right now).
personality it is melee but people can justify ultimate over melee.

A single minute then.

Teleports and a lot of fast ones. Ike can get gimped by a lot of stupid shit and a lot of his air moves hit higher than you’d like. No multihits either

Melee because ultimate has the 7 frames of input lag and annoying buffering and faulty c stick
But ultimate has more content

Not the guy your correcting, but do you know the mechanics of the invisible ceiling? Are there ways to intentionally trigger it on your opponent?

Can you give me a couple examples? Should be really easy to find since most matches are like this.
The only instance that comes to mind was that terrible set between the one Puff player and the ICs who ragequit because he couldn't approach.

I like both but I can't even be bothered to play a lot of my favorite Melee characters in Ultimate. Marth, Falco, Mewtwo, Luigi and especially Captain Falcon are unrecognizable from their Melee counterparts.

Thankfully Fox seems to have kept his playstyle mostly intact, I'm gonna miss his laser spam and shine shenanigans but other than that he almost plays exactly the same. I've also been enjoying Cloud, Wolf, Roy/Chrom, Mario/Doc Mario, Inkling, Ridley, and Zero Suit Samus. It's a different game, but that doesn't mean its bad.

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>Are there ways to intentionally trigger it on your opponent?
youtu.be/6YvvztrO6UA

This guy does a much better job than me at explaining it.

I kinda like Ultimate Luigi. This coming from a Luigi Melee main, where wavedashing is his primary method of moving around.
I think they did a pretty decent job at buffing him where it was needed and made him feel like a complete character.
Still think Melee is more fun because movement is more fun, but I can appreciate the design of Ult Luigi at least.

I know it's a common occurance with Luigi, but from the video, there must be similar properties to shielding involved with Marth's counter that allows him to sometimes trigger it on the opponent as well. I'm working on doing it more consistently and into my gameplay but don't fully understand how it works for Marth yet.

clips.twitch.tv/CorrectMildCroquetteBudStar

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>but muh Captain Falcon
Meanwhile all the bottom tiers of Melee play significantly better due to engine changes leveling the playing field. Why do sMeleebabies have such a hard time grasping the fact that aerial momentum was nerfed to balance the roster?

Melee, because the music is actually fantastic and the arrangements for Earthbound levels are genius.

Also, besides the intro, it primarily lacks that "Ebin Nintendu fightoo gaeme" feel that the new ones can't seem to dispose of.

Ultimate. It has Banjo

This

>aerial momentum was nerfed to balance the roster?
Thats absolute bullshit. Pm has the best balance by far and has momentum. You brawl 3 kids really are dumb.

>Smash
>fighting game

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zelda still plays like shit for the 4th game in a row

>Also, besides the intro, it primarily lacks that "Ebin Nintendu fightoo gaeme" feel that the new ones can't seem to dispose of.
And this is a good thing?

cope retard

No, not really, . She’s actually fun now, and places in tournaments now.

To be fair, in terms of option alone, even Ultimate outmatches most fight games while all the while having simple inputs.

Melee. The gameplay is more fun and crazy, you can have a million characters but if the game isn't fun it really doesn't matter. Also Melee is the last game to have good items, now it's only one shot kill stuff or garbage that takes like a minute to end.

>PM
>good
Lel

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>no argument
lel

she has tournament placings because the game is new enough and matchups are volatile enough that some japanese guy can get Top 8 with a shit character nobody has knowledge on. Little Mac has placings too but is fucking garbage

this, if I want a good and interesting system then melee. if I want a game to have fun full of great features then ultimate

Or maybe, cause, yknow, the game is ACTUALLY balanced?

Ultimate because it has Wolf and Fox and canonized their love/hate relationship

Not him but I can give an example
Any match where hbox plays

Ultimate for casual fun, Melee for a faster paced game. Don't get me wrong, I love and prefer Melee's speed any day, but sometimes I just want to hit someone with a final smash and look at all the cool visuals.

Out of 70ish characters how many are capable of getting top 8?

Hbox is a fag but he doesnt really camp people.

compare smash 4 year 1 to the last tournaments, it took years for people in Melee to realize how to actually play well. There’s balance but so many characters lead to stuff like certain matchups being almost impossible between two competent players.

That's actually an interesting point. Counter does seem to trigger ICG a lot. I wonder if it has to do with hitlag as well as knockback velocity.
I looked it up in 20XX and the action states don't show anything abnormal happening during a counter interaction, so I have no idea what's going on.

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Most of them.

So how many would you call most?

Why do people always talk aboit balance here? Not a single person here is at a point where the "balance" affects you. At most you play ranked in Anthers/take Elite Smash seriously.

Brawl. Best roster and Subspace Emissary.

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I went to check Hbox's recent set against aMSa at SS8. They're both pretty defensive players and prone to do some ledgestalling, but even on DL64 which is probably the most common stage for time outs, the first neutral exchange happens without 5 seconds of the match starting.
I think you're just full of shit, but you can try to prove me wrong. Melee is not a defensive game, which is why so many Melee players are upset when a player actually exceeds at defense. It's not the game they're used to seeing and playing and that frustrates them.

>hmm how should we buff these low tiers?
>oh I know let's nerf the high tiers so everyone's unsatisfying to play
Genius

Ultimate solely due to the fact that in Melee my friend switched mains from Peach to Fox because my C. Falcon would beat his Peach and when he started beating me I switched to Fox and started beating him again.

That summarizes Melee as a whole

melee because it feels better to play. moves come out when you want them to, not half a second after you press the button

Exactly! There doesn't seem to be any differences going on, which is why that video unfortunately isn't an informed enough source because it is not solely a Luigi specific trait. Perhaps the ability for Luigi to hit himself on the ceiling is unique only to him, whereas Marth conversely creates the ceilings on others? I don't recall having examples when playing as Marth where the ceiling affects my knockback momentum after a counter and not that of my opponent, so further still it might a fork of the ICG in a two sides of the same coin kind of deal?

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Melee isnt a counter pick heavy game though. You and your friend just suck.

>PM has the best balance by far
Objectively, it's SSB64. It's the most balanced Smash game, since every character is capable of absolutely demolishing one another.
You don't have to like it, but it's the truth.

Based

>I'm working on doing it more consistently and into my gameplay
You're fucking retarded

I like Smash 4 better than any of these games, Melee is too clunky and buggy, Ultimate just feels like a worse Smash 4. Anyone here play 4?

20CG is coming whether you like it or not.

>it is not solely a Luigi specific trait
He did mention that.
Dolphin Slash also triggers ICG consistently. Some absolute madman even made a combo video around the concept of Dolphin Slash ICG.
youtu.be/_2wU-JB6qdM
It's actually not that far out when you consider how common Dolphin Slash is as an OoS option. If you have the recognition, you could get some absolutely fucking retarded strings in.
Who the fuck is going to know to DI for ICG specific combos, right?

>pressing one button is a competitive gameplay
Zoomers will always be zoomers.

>Anyone here play 4?
No. No one. Even Smash 4 apologists, who SWORE that it was the best Smash game and promised that it'd outlive Melee, immediately dropped the game when Ultimate came out.

Easily the most braindead post here. Sm4sh is a fucking abomination.

But it is a counter pick heavy game. A shit one at that. Glad it’s dead desu

Ultimate for the best vanilla Smash. Brawl for mods

Spoken like true noobs, Smash 4 is better than all of them, you idiots just hopped on the next bandwagon instead of improving your skill

Lying fucking cunt I played PJ64 online for 4 years straight it's only Fox, Falcon and Pikachu I saw

why is competitive smash even a thing just play the game for the fun of it lol

Whoa thanks, this is great info! And this video came out really recently yet somehow I missed it. Exactly as you say, no one is going to expect or be prepared for ICG shenanigans taking place, so if you can work with it without your opponent noticing (kind of like Ness player's and the yoyo glitch) it could do wonders.

>he bought a Wii U

>Not mastering Samus and destroying tier abusers

Go look up tournaments, you dumbass. It has the most top 8 viable characters relative to the roster size.

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why is competitive handegg even a thing just play the game for the fun of it lol

It really isn't. Granted, Melee's balancing has its own issues like only a third of the roster being able to win big tournaments, but if you pick anyone better than Luigi or so, you can have success if you're good enough.

Ultimate is an extremely counterpick heavy game in comparison. The overall difference between tiers aren't nearly as drastic as they are in Melee, but you can't solo main anyone worse than probably Captain Falcon and win tournaments. And then there's shit like that Bowser double 3 stocking one of the best Inkling players in the world.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

>no reply
As expected

Smash 4 had no fans. Not even the people who played it liked the game. People only pretended to like 4 just to spite meleefags.

Yikes, it's incredible how zoomers can't handle skill caps and just jump from one game to the next. There's a reason Smash 4 died, and it's not because Ultimate is the better game (Protip: it was too hard for most)

I'm gonna play 3 more games and call it. You're samus moves dude. Never see any samus use breverses. I play samus a bit and I try to incorporate breverses into my play but I only use it for landing.

>improving your skill
But I did, it's called DLC

When will this stupid drama of what is the best smash game come to an end from melee players?? When we are on smash 9???? Other figthing game series aren't as butthurt about other games getting the spotlight as melee players, this is why other games of the fgc communities doesn't like you, all of you become assblasted the moment somebody says they prefer other smash games to melee or that they don't like melee, the fact that you compare peak viewers in top 8 as the metric of what is successful tell me that the majority of you aren't competitors but stream monster.

Ultimate because the online is so much fun and all my favorite characters to play were not introduced until after Melee. I hate the Ultimate gacha gimmick and miss trophies and the comfy single player experience of Melee though. But it makes up for it in the endless amounts of entertainment in online multiplayer and insane variety of characters to play.

I play 64, Melee and Ultimate and for every time I hear someone complaining about Melee players acting elitist there's 10 Ultimate players shitting on Melee. Most Melee chads stick to their game but acknowledge Ultimate is fun as well

Didn't know Esoi and MVD were zoomers

Smelee is literally autistic fucking garbage for autistic faggots who can’t play real fighting games

Why is Ultimate's online so shit bros? Why is it that I can netplay Melee with my local friends and it feels like we're playing together on the couch, but playing vs. them in Ultimate there's an extremely noticeable delay to everything?

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this. I rarely see meleeheads spout some elitism, it's usually the ult kids saying "lol ded gaem"

>mastering samus when mii gunner exist

Ah yes Mii Gunner my favorite Smash 64 character

>mii gunner in smash 64

melee, because of ultimate's buffer

If you played PJ64 online and have never seen Kirby you're a fucking liar.

Ultimate is just as deep as Melee. Its only because people played nothing but Melee for 20 years that a “deep” meta has emerged. In 20 years Ultimate will have the same status and only 2 characters will be viable.

ultimate because it's the best crossover game so far and it's still getting updated

The "melee only has 2 viable characters" meme hasn't been true in years. Falcon and Pikachu literally just won supermajors within the past month.

In 20 years, no one will play either game seriously.

Mechanics are what make a game "deep". The more control over your character the better. Ultimate is no where near Melee in that regard.

If people want a truly competitive game they need to go back to Smash 4, only the elites of that game still play it and it's inexorably harder than Smelee or Trashimate

Based contrarian arguing only for the sake of arguing.

GGs dude

Good shit Falcon and Cloud user. My pockets suck but I hope I at least made ya work for it with me Sammy.

Same here, it doesn’t matter that the physics are technically working correctly; any glitch in a game is going to be caused by the game following its own rules. The glitch is the unintended result, not the pieces, and Fox sliding across the stage at Mach 2 going “ATATATATATATA” looks and feels stupid.

Anyone wanna do some 5 character Ironman in Melee?

>feels stupid
You'd have to actually play Melee before you say that

If Ultimate's airdodge could slide off platforms i'd put it on equal footing with Melee

This. Melee, because I'm too old to enjoy games anymore.

Melee is as old as i am and i still consider it better. the movement is just so much more satisfying

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Why is Sm4sh hated again?

The games been out for less than a year and has over 70 characters. You’re a clown if you actually think it can be called balanced by now

Because brainlets can't comprehend the neutral game, and don't want to git gud. They just fall back on SSBM's crutches, or Ultimates free gameplay

Just to take a break from the shitposting does anyone remember the tiers are for queers thing? For awhile there was a legit sizable group of people who genuinely thought tiers could not and did not exist. It’s bizarre thinking back to it.

melee because the gameplay is a thousand times better and more fun both to play and watch. just use a graphics mod so it doesnt look like dogshit

heavily defensive gameplay, floaty movement, weak combos for the most part, Rage being too strong of a comeback mechanic and sometimes making the game not function properly, and Cloud and Bayonetta fucking over the balance by the end