Inmersive Sims

I've been trying to come up with a good genre name for these types of games but everything sounds clunky or wrong. Immersive Sim is ok. Sandbox action RPG? They're generally linear in story/missiob structure but wide open in mission areas and playstyles.

The Bioshock series are NOT immersive sims, they're action games.

Skyrim and Call of Duty are my favorite immersive sims!
fuck off with your meme genre name is what I'm trying to say

Play Arx Fatalis, Arkanes best game.

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Do you mean multiplayer or single?

Tbh sansar is pretty immersive even without VR

It sounds a bit ominous at first but it makes sense the more you get into how they work. Also that's what Warren Spector calls them, so I'm okay with it.

kys

You're not saying anything, because neither of those are part of the genre.

Okay, so what makes BioShock or Deus Ex """"immersive sims"""" but not for example Fallout: New Vegas or Hitman?

Open world bullshit has nothing to do with immersive sims, retard.

Disregard the "open world bullshit" and explain what makes the former two games "immersive sims" but not the latter two.

Meant for

>Any recomendations?
Deus Ex, System Shock 2

Personally I think immersive sims are about how the player interacts with the world. They are a playground of sorts with many ways to approach a situation. I would say that hitman is an immersive sim (though most people have first-person as a requirement) but Fallout is just about shooting or smacking shit, with the occasional option to talk it through.

and play this as well

>excellent
Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Vampire Bloodlines

>good
Deus Ex Human Revolution, System Shock, Thief, Thief 2

>average
Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Bioshock, Dishonored, Prey, Thief 3

>bad
Thief 4, Deus Ex Invisible War

>Inmersive Sims
Die.

Bioshock is not an immersive sim.

Kill yourself, retard.

I've played bioshock (planning on replaying them all again), and the dishonored series.

System shock and the old deus-ex seem too old to me, aside from graphics, how did they age control-wise?

>Immersive Sim
Stop using this cringy made up term

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This, these games are FPS RPGs.

Does INFRA count?

Controls are perfectly fine after some rebinging, and interfaces, for me, are better than interfaces of today. That's for SS2, SS1 is a bit different story.

No, INFRA is an example how great level design can make a game from nothing. It is more like point-and-click adventure than immersive sim.

Mass Effect is an FPS RPG, yet it isn't an immersive sim.

Making up fake names is retarded.
Deus Ex is an rpg and I have never heard anyone say otherwise.
Prey, Dishonored, and Bioshock are just stealth/action fps.

>mass effect
>fps

It is not an FPS and not an RPG.

That doesn't account for the emergent gameplay, you redundant sack of shit.

Lumping everything with RPG elements in the RPG bin isn't gonna help you find games you like. You play a Deus Ex game for the same reason you play a Final Fantasy or an Elder Scrolls.

>Making up fake names is retarded.
No, it's literally how language works. New things require new names, and immersive simulations are just that.

don't play*

they're atmospheric sims, not immersive sims.
they cost a lot to make, and atmosphere is not really gameplay, and is a matter of taste, so sales aren't so good.

Crysis maybe? Definitively not an immersive sim, but I enjoy these types of games and Crysis kinda did it for me. Don't know about the sequels tho.

what

Sim City. Although people claim the most recent one is shit, it's actually a pretty peaceful game and quite fun (watching your city grow and whatnot).

Miiverse is back!

You don't play a Deus Ex game for the same reason you play a Final Fantasy or an Elder Scrolls. I forgot a word there.

but user, you wouldn't play FF for the same reason you would TES
JRPGs are classified differently for a reason
like, what
WHAT

Mankind Divided was fucking terrible. A 10 hour long linear corridor with 8 trillion hackable side-rooms containing generic supplies is not an immersive sim. Human Revolution was much better.

Play thief gold and thief 2 , maybe play thief 3 (deadly shadows ) it was made for consoles but it still has some good stuff in it. DO NOT even think of playing thief 2014.

Also try system shock 2 as other annons suggested

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You've literally proved my point. If we need a genre distinction for JRPGS and Western RPGS, we can't dump immersive sims in the RPG bin either.

Western and Japanese are not genres though, they're geographical labels. The genre is RPG for both of them.

Yeah, sure, and it is impossible to tell apart Underrail and Planescape, cause they are same, they are both RPGs.

Genres are defined by the reason you play a certain type of game, and by that logic JRPGs and WRPGs should be considered different genres. The only thing they have in common is being in the role of a character. I think RPG as a genre is an entirely meaningless tag.
Unless you drill down and specify if it's an action RPG, JRPG, Western RPG, CRPG, etc. you don't really get a lot of information about the game.

>Western RPG, CRPG
Wait, what's difference here?

You can tell apart any two games. I can tell apart Doom and Quake. Does that mean they're different genres?

>Genres are defined by the reason you play a certain type of game
Is every single game in the escapism and entertainment genres?

>immersive sims

Wrong, they aren't shooters.

No, Doom shares gameplay with Quake, you can recommend Quake to Doom fans. On the other hand, you can't recommend ARMA to Modern Warfare fans, but from the formal standpoint they are both FPS-ers.

>pretending subgenres don't exist
shut thefuck up literal retard

Right. Then from a formal standpoint all those games are RPGs and there's no such thing as a Japanese subgenre or a Western subgenre.

Different things entertain different people. "RPG", or "shooter", or "action movie" are very broad genres.

>"Japanese" or "Western" refer to gameplay instead of origin
imagine being this incredibly fucking stupid

That doesn't change how they play them for the same reason. So based on what you said they belong in the same genre.

All of these games are very much shooters.

But there is not much point in such formal distinction. Japanese "style" or "subgenre" sure do exist.

They actually do, we just haven't moved past those terms. Dark Souls was made in Japan but you wouldn't call that a JRPG

The best immersive sim is the Hideous Destructor mod for Doom. No joke. The level of detail is insane:

>An imp can hit you with a fireball that sets you on fire. The fire can then cause your rifle to overheat and start cooking off the magazine. If you drop the gun it will still fire while on the ground and this can kill monsters or even the player.
>You can make a trap out of a hand grenade, some wire and a piece of chewing gum
>You have a drone that has a full set of AI commands that can also be duct taped to switches to activate them remotely
>Shotguns and bolt action rifles have to be operated manually and the game even models short stroking
>You can drag bodies into pits or under doors to crush them and prevent them from resurrecting
>Health items change the player's heartrate which has an effect on gameplay like in System Shock 1

pathologic 2.

Well, now I have to try it.

Yes, I would. Anyone with a shred of common sense would. It's an RPG made by a Japanese company. Hence Japanese Role-playing Game. It's really quite self-evident. Meanwhile Witcher 3 or Icewind Dale are western RPGs, even though they play absolutely nothing alike.

Then tell me the exact gameplay requirements to belong in the Japanese subgenre. And then proceed to explain why it's called Japanese rather than anything that would even remotely describe its features like "first person" subgenre for shooters or the "real time" subgenre for strategy games.

There are western-made JRPGs, believe it or not.

There aren't, believe it or not.

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Do we differentiate every genre by where it was developed? JRPG's are a genre of there own and have their own unique characteristics, just as said.

>the best way to identify games with all these common elements
What, being a video game? What qualifies something as an "immersive sim"? You can open and close doors? Holy shit stop the presses.

THWACK

What's supposed to be your point? They're both JRPGs, one of them is an Action RPG.

Please specify these characteristics.

>Please specify these characteristics.
Not him but games that play sorta like Wizardry. And yes, Wizardry was not made in Japan, but it was very popular there and it's what started the JRPG genre.

>player's heartrate which has an effect on gameplay like in System Shock 1
What? I finished System Shock 1 some years ago and i don't remember anything like that. Thought that heartrate screen was just a healthbar.

"Plays sorta like Wizardry" is not specific at all. Please go into detail.

> exact gameplay requirements
Weaboo shit that is similar to Final Fantasy.
>why it's called Japanese
Because of tradition, you dumb fuck.

>Do we differentiate every genre by where it was developed?
No, not all of them. But they do for some of them. Ever heard of J-rock? or K-pop?

Arx Fatalis with the Arx Libertatis compatibility mod. It was the first game made by Arkane, the devs that made Dishonored later. They also made Dark Messiah, which is a decent game as well.

The only FPS games that were mentioned ITT as being immersive sims are the Bioshock series, however you have to have not played any of them to think they belong in the genre. Those are literally FPS and not immersive sims.

The definitive immersive sims are Deus Ex, System Shock 2, and the first two Thief games. DX and SS2 have shooting elements, but are still not FPS games. Thief is not an FPS at all, and neither is its spiritual successor Dishonored.

I think your confusion comes from a lack of vocabulary. You want to peg anything in the FPP as an FPS. They aren't.

List those similarities.

What kind of tradition exactly? You and your whole family forming a bloodline of inbred mouthbreathing mongoloids?

Lol I called you a fucking retard and you (You'd) me. Seriously though shut up.

We're talking about video games here, give me a genre that differentiates game by where they are developed.

why

You should be more peaceful according to that chart.

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RPG

That's what is trying to be established, whether JRPG refers to a genre of just a place of origin, where is your argument?

Bloodlines is not an immersive sim.

JRPGs usually focus more on story while Western RPGs focus on player freedom and expression (customizing your character, exploring an open world)

In System Shock 1 your heartrate will determine how effective stimpacks are. For example using a medkit raises your heartrate which will make using a second medkit less effective.

You already named them
You can't get any better than MD and Prey.

Dishonored is good for the tricks you can pull of.

Bioshock is crap

here Meanwhile there's still no sensible reason provided why these alleged subgenres are named after their place of origin instead of the game's features like almost all subgenres. Still no sensible reason why these labels are different than those in music or cartoons. And still no definite list of the alleged subgenres' common features.

So where's your argument?

Why. What's the difference between them and Deus Ex?

Also, this confusion about JRPGs and Western RPGs ultimately stems from the fact that we're not very good at naming genres (FPS, Roguelike are other examples)
What I'm trying to say is you wouldn't recommend Dark Souls to someone who liked Final Fantasy and wants more like it, because they belong to different genres, even though both of them are Japanese.

They don't provide systems to solve different problems in different ways. Have you played any of those games?

midge

>muh climbing through vents instead of hacking is a separate genre
no. skyrim i.e. has many situations where you have a choice on how to overcome challenges
as does the metal gear solid series and countless other games

How is it cringy. Or are you the same user who comes into every immersive sim thread and complains about how "pretentious" it sounds?

Dude sex and SS2 play very well native.
SS1 use the recent enhanced edition which makes it play like a game from this century, unless you want the meme keyboard look 1994 experience.

Swiss Army Knives are named like they are by convention. You can cry about name origins all you like, doesn't change how they're used.

all genre names are made up, you dumb fart.
its a hell of a lot better and less "cringey" than moba, looter shooter, battle royale.

>And then proceed to explain why it's called Japanese rather than anything that would even remotely describe its features
That's a common naming convention. You call champagne champagne even when it's not geographically from Champagne (even though non Champagne champagne are shit like Paul Masson). On the other hand there are wines produced in Champagne that aren't champagne.
You really are a fucking retard.

Honestly, i'm starting to think he's just baiting.

>looter shooter, battle royale.
Those are succinct, at least. I love Looking Glass legacy, but "Simulator of Immersion" do sounds pompous. Every game has a bit of immersion.

>skyrim i.e. has many situations where you have a choice on how to overcome challenges
Most of those choices are only combat-related, which is no different than choosing to kill a demon in Doom with a shotgun or chaingun. Some quests do give you a choice on how to deal with a problem, but the key word here is "some", with most of the game not being designed like that at all. Hell, Warren Spector has outright said that he thinks recent games like Skyrim or Fallout are considerably shallow in comparison to the stuff he's worked on (although he tried saying it in a polite way).

And to other anons in this thread, the Bioshock games aren't really immersive sims either. I like Bioshock 1 and 2, but they're more so fps with rpg elements than immersive sims, just like Doom 2016.

An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer. This definition is not to be confused with game systems which allow player choice in a confined sense or systems which allow players to easily escape consequences of their choices.

Immersive sims by definition allow for multiple approaches, and typically incorporate elements of multiple genres, including role-playing games, stealth, first-person shooters, platform games and survival horror.

Exactly. Which is why everyone agrees games like Gothic 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 are both WRPGs even though they play nothing alike, just because they're of western origin. Or similarly that Xenoblade and Final Fantasy VII are both JRPGs even though they play nothing alike either. This also makes it immediately obvious these are not genres.

A drink analogy instead of a food analogy. The morons are breaking new ground. Name some other examples of media genres where this very common convention is used.

Well, here is whet everything comes to mess. "Immersive sims" are somehow all about the "player choice", but how is System Shock 2 is about choices? It's "I upgraded weaponry and forced to stick with handgun" kind of choices.

Just play open world games like the rest of us chads. I can't wait to explore another big ass empty map and play a game where 50% of game time is going from place A to B hahaha... it's very fun and realistic haha

>An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer. This definition is not to be confused with game systems which allow player choice in a confined sense or systems which allow players to easily escape consequences of their choices.
By this definition exploiting AI in 4x strategy is also an Immersive Sim. Spelunky is immersive sim, but System Shock 1 is not.

>haha le food analogy
It is used in so many ways, say, in architecture (what are French windows?) or finance (a European stock action), just on top of my head in five seconds.
In cinema, you can describe a particular framing as an American shot (apparently forbidden outside the US?) Even some sexual positions refer to geography.

>everyone agrees games like Gothic 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 are both WRPGs
"WRPG" is a dumb genre name that doesn't mean anything. That one actually is based on place of origin. I imagine that name of genre was created by people that misinterpreted "JRPG" and thought it had to do with hemisphere of origin.

>thief 2014.
Why do people shit on this game? It wasn't even that bad. Yeah the writing was pretty shit but gameplay wise I had a lot of fun and the traditional horror map was well made.

>Bought mooncrash in these steam sales
That's dlc looks like garbage though, it's rogue-lite or some bullshit like that.
As for your question: Dishonored from modern games, Deu sex 1, Arx Fatalis from early 2000s were great

>>"WRPG" is a dumb genre name that doesn't mean anything. That one actually is based on place of origin. I imagine that name of genre was created by people that misinterpreted "JRPG" and thought it had to do with hemisphere of origin.
I'd rather see it as people specifically telling that the game is not of the JRPG type rather than insisting on place of origin.

So where are those media genres, user? It's supposed to be a very common convention. Coincidentally I already named a few similar labels like J-drama or K-pop. How very curious that these fill the exact same function as JRPG and are not genres either, huh?

>it counts when it's convenient to me
Fascinating.

Underworld Ascendant is good.

just go outside

Recently I've been looking at systemic games in gener to scratch the itch given the subgenre is pretty dead.

The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Hitman 2, and Divinity: Original Sin 2 are the only ones to really do it for me though and each of them only hits parts of what makes love IS.

Thief 2 should be in excellent
Thief 3 should be in good
Mankind Divided should be in good
Dishonored 2 should be in excellent

give up LGScucks, FPSchads won

Many people would argue new vegas IS one though.

Hitman usually doesn't make the cut because of limited options for victory (you always have to kill), limited enviormental interactivity (2016+2018 basically resolved this issue imo), and various other quibbles. Personally I'd count them too by this point.

Dishonored 2 isn't an excellent game though. It's just a bigger Dishonored 1 with new abilities. Nothing groundbreaking. At least Dishonored 1 felt unique when it came out

>>So where are those media genres, user?
Why would you impose this bizarre restriction? It is a common naming convention across the board. Is Texas poker restricted to Texas?
there aren't many name of genre in the first place, so a general convention being used once for vidya is already more than many other common manner of naming.

Inmersive sims?

Why not just call them FPS RPGs? That's what they are.

Anyone using the term "immersive sim" is a certified idiot in my books.

>good
>Deus Ex Human Revolution
>average
Deus Ex Mankind Divided
The gameplay, level design, and side missions in Mankind Divided are better than in Human Revolution, which really just had a better narrative and side characters. Unless you consider narrative quality the most important part of an immersive sim, these two games should at least be on the same level, if not switched.

Farming simulator 17 is pretty good desu. Plenty of mods, and you can use a wheel, as well as a VR headset. Peak comfy and super immersive.

It's a TPS RPG.

Level design is mostly linear and boring with maybe 2-3 paths per section of level. Levels are now sectioned off with bottlenecks because consoles need to load the new area. Sound design is absolutely fucked (missing sounds, sound levelling, sound doesn't damping through walls, etc) and I was convinced there was something wrong with my computer until googling it. Story is bland and Garret is now an emo twat.

The only nice thing I can say about it is that it's beautiful to look at and was one of the best looking games at the time. The volumetric fog was incredible for 2014.

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>inmersive sims
is this the newest forced meme

>Nah.
based

>warren spector is an idiot
damn....

There is definite video on that matter.
youtube.com/watch?v=jPqwDGXxLhU

>inmersive sims
>is this the newest forced meme
The phrase is probably older than you are.

Deus Ex HR started strong for me but I lost interest halfway through mostly becasuse of the shit story/dialogue. Should I pick it back up and bear through it for MD? I realise the writing will probably be at the same standard but if the gameplay is on another level I'd be able to ignore it easier.

This one is good too. Similar content but a little more in-depth.

youtu.be/f-9fDku4Cvg

I remember some Finnish guy who bashed Thi4F for several videos, one video for story, one for gameplay, one for sound, etc, but couldn't find him.

MD doesn't require you to know a lot about the story beforehand, the one event it cares about is repeated and explained to you constantly
Don't play it if you don't want to.

Literally who?

fucking zoomers. god damn I hate what this place has become

Nah, I don't know what it is but I really cannot start a game series at the middle installment it just nags at me too much.

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Get out of here, metal nerd with a thesaurus

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based

What's the difference between TFix and TFix Lite?

I don't think Thief 3 gets enough love. SneakyUpgrade basically fixes all of the issues.

Because we are talking about media genres. So the conventions that apply to media genres are relevant, not hamburgers and champagne. This is how it works in television and in music, and no one at all has a fucking problem with it, but only when it comes to video games a few people have to go full contrarian for no good reason whatsoever. Laughable.

And even if just for shits and giggles we ignore the above point, you still have to go on and define exactly what are the rules that makes something a JRPG and a WRPG. Since these are totally subgenres, amirite?
Tales of Vesperia, Final Fantasy X, Xenoblade Chronicles, Vagrant Story, Dragon's Dogma, Lightning Returns FFXIII. All of these have been often referred to as JRPGs. But according to you that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. They have very different content. So which of those are JRPGs and why exactly? The only common thing is that they're Japanese-made. And WRPGs? Precisely what are the common elements in Morrowind, SR Dragonfall, Pillars of Eternity, Kingdom Come and SW Kotor that make all of them belong to this same mysterious "genre"?

Bottom line is, you have to go through absolutely retarded mental gymnastics to pretend these are anything but the place of origin. The meaning of the words Japanese and Western are simple and to the point. This is how it works in other media. This is the only way it can encompass all those games that play differently but are still commonly referred to as J/W RPGs. Sites like Steam and Wikipedia never use JRPG or WRPG as genre designations. These are facts. Your counterargument is your opinion that all this is somehow not okay.

TFix Lite contains only fixes and patches, not enhancements.

Neat, thanks.

Have you ever tried not being autistic?

What about the small load zones? That was the most obvious symptom of consolitis in that game.

JRPGs are turn based. Dragon's Dogma isn't a JRPG. I don't care what some retards refer to as JRPGs. If we were bound by the norms of what idiots say, I'd have to go around calling Hollow Knight a "Metroidvania"
And again, WRPGs is a meme term. I don't use it.

What's the game on the left?

Those are gone in SneakyUpdate. There are still some loading screens but I believe all the levels are now just a single map.

can someone post a pak with all those missions?

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PLAY THIEF 1 & 2

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Then Divinity Original Sin is a JRPG, correct? It's turn-based. And Tales of Vesperia is not a JRPG, because it has real time combat. Wow. Impressive.
>I don't use it.
Yeah, but you don't matter. If we were bound by the norms of what one ignorant guy says, I'd have to go around calling Temple of Elemental Evil a JRPG.

Literally just rebind the keys to whatever you want, that's not a good reason to skip on nice games friend

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>HR on par with SS, Thief 1 & 2
>HR above Prey and Dishonored

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People started using just a few years back, and rightly these people get told they are idiots.

perfection. I kinda wanna replay this but I get so bored because I can remember all the details and

>Then Divinity Original Sin is a JRPG, correct? It's turn-based.
Nah because of the free movement shit with the action points shenanigans.

>And Tales of Vesperia is not a JRPG, because it has real time combat.
Correct

gamasutra.com/view/feature/131523/postmortem_ion_storms_deus_ex.php

>Conceptually, Deus Ex is a genre-busting game (which really endeared us to the marketing guys) -- part immersive simulation, part role-playing game, part first-person shooter, part adventure game.

>It's an immersive simulation game in that you are made to feel you're actually in the game world with as little as possible getting in the way of the experience of "being there."

>December 6, 2000
>2000

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Elaborate further. Most turn-based rpgs have free movement when not in combat.

Original Sin has free movement when in combat, though.

zoomers

Then free movement in combat is what makes something a WRPG? Like Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy XV are a WRPGs?

>genre doesn't exist because i don't like its name

I like to imagine immersive sims as a teenage valkyrie rebelling against her parents atop a magnificent griffin. The griffin is immersive sims too.

As I already told you a billion times, "WRPG" doesn't mean anything to me. It was a term created from retards that misunderstood "JRPG" and wanted to make the equivalent.

>ITT: give me aesthetics with no substance because my IQ is low as fuck

>retards that misunderstood "JRPG"
Rather funny coming from the guy who says some of the universally accepted flagship JRPG franchises like Final Fantasy or Tales of are in fact not JRPGs, or that XCOM is a JRPG. You might as well be saying the sky is green.

Child of Light is a JRPG
The last two South Park games are JRPGs

This. Planescape Torment and KOTOR 2 as well.

Neither of those games are even turn-based.

And? They're JRPGs.

is EYE an immersive sim?

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Cyberpunk will reignite the Best Genre ever

Nintendo has some great immersive sims about a communist plumber tripping on LSD I think it was.

>Open world trash
Nah, this ain't it, chief

I played thief the dark project way back, before the gold version was even released.
I have never played the gold version!
I think the regular version is perfect.
thieves guild is crummy.

>inmersive sims
Is this some new meme? Never heard anyone call Deus Ex or Dishonored and all the other games mentioned here "immersive sims."

Get educated. It has been coined for nearly 20 years now.

>wannabe-RPG action adventure
Nah fuck off.

>even Arkane studio is thinking to change
y'all gonna need to source that right the fuck now

>literally my favorite genre
KILL ME

Doubt

Have you seen their new game? Wasn't exactly screaming immersive sim to me.

>Doubt

Prey.

Their last game was Death of the Outsider. Felt like an immersive sim to me, even if Harvey has really gone off the rails end with his identitarian lens of things.

>Wasn't exactly screaming immersive sim to me.
How could it scream anything to anyone when it just another cgi trailer with no gameplay.

Dishonored 2, Prey and DotO all bombed.

They might have sold poorly, but I always had the impression that sales figures were not priority #1 for them. I'd need a source that a studio headed by Harvey Smith would ever move away from immersive sims, because that just sounds bonkers to me.