Just a reminder that everything you did in Metal Gear Solid 2 was meaningless and that Raiden is just a pawn so that...

>Then why wouldn't you listen to what it was saying

because of all the lies and manipulating it put everyone through.
Now that the trust got revealed that the AI is a lying piece of shit, why bother?

> It had nothing to do with Solid Snake
then explain why Big Shell is an intentional half assed recreation of Shadow Moses?

>why bother?
Because you're missing out on the entire point of the game.
>then explain why Big Shell is an intentional half assed recreation of Shadow Moses?
Because of how crazy the events of Shadow Moses was. It was seen as the ultimate stress test to test GW's logic capabilities. Could it control Raiden to complete the mission when a bunch of random X factors get thrown into the mix?

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>Because you're missing out on the entire point of the game.

>the "point" of a game is in a speech delivered by a liar
that's a shitty way of delivering a point.

tfw the entirety of mgs3 was retconed into being pointless

>tfw the entirety of mgs3 was retconed into being pointless

Yeah. it sucked having the survivors of MGS3 being retconed into being the Patriots was just another reason why the Patriots (as a plot device) were a mistake.

>tfw when MGS4 and V shit all over MG, MGS2 and MGS3
Feels bad
Only if you have shit taste it is

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Everything past MGS1 was pointless.

MGS2 only existed so we could get MGR:R out of the deal. A fair deal, I might add.

BASED AND TRANQ PILL'D

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So you're just reminding me about how it ended??

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Does anyone else get slightly bothered that Dead Cell doesn't have a unifying motif like the other game boss groups?

>Solid Snake Simulation

No such thing. Did you even play the game?

>No such thing. Did you even play the game?

I did. I just did not listen to the lies of the AI.

>20 years ago
>I still remember the insane MGS2 hype leading up to release like it was last year

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What do you mean?
But you listened to the misinformation of Ocelot. And the game has been out for nearly 20 years. Have you never talked with anyone about it? Or are you some zoomer who recently played it.

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Not meaningless at all. Solidus was a threat that needed to be taken care of and Raiden's experience on the battlefield helped him out in later games.

>But you listened to the misinformation of Ocelot
Despite being a bad guy, he seemed more trustworthy than the fucking AI

>Have you never talked with anyone about it?
Outside of Yea Forums, not really.

>Or are you some zoomer who recently played it.
Played it once around 2004.

Like the animal motif bosses had in 1, the feelings motif in 3, throwback to 1&3 bosses motif in 4, uh vehicular motif in PW I guess.

Missing on some of the most interesting dialogue in the game because you are autistic, bravo user.

Why do you post the same comment about the AI lying to you every mgs2 thread? I suppose it has some merit but what do you get out of it?

>autistic

how does not wanting to listen to a lair count as autism?

>Just a reminder that everything you did in Metal Gear Solid 2 was meaningless

This is true for every videogame ever.
What did you gain from wasting away your youth Yea Forums?

I still have my Game Informer, PSMag and a couple other ones that had articles hyping the game and the Game Informer mag for when it came out that included a strategy guide. I don't think there's ever been a period in my life where I've been as hyped as I was between MGS VR Missions coming out and MGS2 getting released. I still remember when it came out (on a Wednesday). We had evening church. After service, my mom drove my brother and I to the gamestop at the mall where we picked up our reserved copy.

Since our cousins were staying with us for a bit (one of my cousins was having surgery for sclerosis-- we're Nigerian, so they came to America for the surgery), parents made a rule that we could only have the tv for an hour each. So that meant that my brother and I could only play the game for a couple of hours a day until we beat it.

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Inserting yourself and thinking characters are talking to you and not each other and getting personal in reaction to them telling a lie is pretty damn autistic user.

>you are just a pawn
That's literally every MGS

>Now that the trust got revealed that the AI is a lying piece of shit, why bother?
Because just like Liquid stopped impersonating Miller and told Snake the truth during MGS1, the AI had to play its own assigned role and give up the pretense and be straight with Raiden.

>Inserting yourself and thinking characters are talking to you

and where did my post imply that?

Narrative wise, the AI is a fucking liar and is not worth listening to. It doesn't matter who the AI is talking to if the AI is spouting nothing but lies.

He sounds like a broken AI

Solidus was only a threat, because the Patriots allowed him to be a threat. Everything about the Big Shell was a set up. Nothing about it was anyone's choice outside of Liquid and Snake

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I don't understand this "AI is lying" meme. I thi

So in every work of fiction you encounter you get upset if any character tells a lie? Just witnessing the act of lying upsets you? That's pretty autistic.

>I don't understand this "AI is lying" meme. I thi

they lied and manipulated Raiden throughout the course of MGS2 and MGS4 showed that they were continuing the lies/manipulations with all the Proxy War shit.

Not to mention they intentionally left behind that list of fake names to trick (another form of lying) people into think that list was the Patriots when it was just bullshit

>So in every work of fiction you encounter you get upset if any character tells a lie?
only when the character has been lying over and over and over (like the Patriot AI) and fucking NPCs (like MGS2 fans) still believe them.

I knew that when I first played MGS2. Solidus is unironically hero.

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Nah, in other MGS games the threat is actually real. In MGS2 it was not.

Well there is only 4 of them in mgs2 and fatman shouldn't even be there, he only was there to fuck up stillman by his request not raiden.

I think the theme with them is supposed to be tragedy. They all have tragic back stories.

>that theory about MGSV being about Solidus and his years on Africa

I'll agree with you on everything except
>Great use of the PS2's controller layout
Nigger, MGS2 and 3 have some of the most convoluted fucking controls of any game imaginable. You have to play fucking twister with your gamepad just to do basic stuff like stick-ups that shouldn't be a problem at all had the games used a more normal control scheme instead of essentially adding layers of complexity atop a control scheme originally designed for a 2D game.

>In MGS2 it was not.

I'd say that Solidus wanting to nuke NYC was pretty real.

Not to mention the Patriot AI threat was also very real, as we saw in MGS4.

>implying MGS2 isn't a simulation
>IMPLYING anything of it was real
>implying it wasn't MGS4 to retcon it into actually being real events and not just a simulation

Ignore this post, it's not part of the simulation

based and jackpilled

>stick-ups
How was that convoluted. You held R1 and Square. Two buttons that can easily be pressed together with the same hand.
1. Solidus never wanted the nuke; Dead Cell did. Solidus just wanted a list of names of the Patriots.
2. And while the nuke was real, it was never going to happen, because GW/the Patriots AI (at the time of 2 there were a lot of them and not just 4 and they were parallel AI not 4 separate ones with different functions) was never going to let that happen.

What are you talking about. It's square to aim, L1 to move with gun drawn R1 to go in first person. If pressing 2 buttons are hard for you, you should probably give up gaming.

If you are complaining about the button depression, git gud. The game was designed for the DS2 pad, not DS3.
That was not only added because of the new hardware tech but also for meta of getting the feel of trigger discipline and how dangerous your bullets can be.

No wonder people hated MGS2, if this is what they got out of it.

Solidus never actually possessed a live nuke. Ocelot literally explains that it was just a fakeout to enable the raid on Arsenal Gear and entice Dead Cell. He never once truly had the means to nuke us.

Werent you a pawn in basicalky every MGS game? I remember the Colonel turning into a skeleton in the codec and saying some weird ass shit it freaked me the fuck out playing it as a kid.

Nah, it was always real and never a simulation. A simulation would defeat the entire purpose of GW and the themes of MGS2. Also, the document of MGS2 is pretty clear that everything was real. I recommend getting it if you can.

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nvm your gay.

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I haven't played the game in years but wasn't pare of the plan to detonate a nuke to cause an EMP and create a patriot free zone?

Nah, Ocelot says that the hydrogen bomb is real, but is just the tip of the iceberg. The thing is though, that there was no way that Dead Cell could have taken control of Arsenal in a way that would have allowed them to fire a nuke.

A pawn yes, but still one with agency. In MGS2 Raiden has no agency. To quote the President: "without freewill there is no difference between submission and rebellion."

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Yes. Well, that was Dead Cell's plan. Solidus just wanted a list of names of the Patriots. But none of that matters, because they were all just pawns and none of them had agency.

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Yes they do, dumb ass. It's about death. Or legacy? Surpassing death, in some way. Also about wanting for death, but not having it, kinda? Look, fortune is too lucky to die, even when it's revealed that it's a trick, she's still too lucky. She wants to tho, cause she keeps outliving her loved ones. Fatman wants to die, but in a specific and glorious way to cement his name in history. Vamp dies all the fucking time, like constantly. At least during the game. Given how Fortune reacts, it's reasonable to assume that aside from his initial origin story survival, he's never used his res powers til MGS2, or at least very infrequently and he keeps it under wraps or something. I forget if he wants to die as well....I think he does by MGS4? Maybe not in 2 tho. Chinaman and Oldboy we dunno shit about, but since oldboy is old you can draw some death theming out of that. Solidus sorta bucks the trend, but I'm pretty sure he's not an original member, just got them to go rogue with him after he dipped the presidency. Nevertheless he has some death/legacy theming going on as well,

>a clone of a (at the time thought to be) dead man, tying into both death and legacy.
>prime motivating factor is to destroy that which threatened his legacy, so people didn't think he was just some monster.
>Is rapidly aging due to weird genetic bullshit, so there's some more death or whatever.

Is it as snappy as animal names and roles? No, but it's not supposed to be. Everything in MGS2 feels like you're waking up from a morphine nap or some shit. It's trippy and vague and only really sorta solidifies if you stare at it and even then the edges are blurred.

>sclerosis
I meant scoliosis

And Ocelot?

He's not a member of Dead Cell

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Holy fucking....do you people even play these games? is right.

Even then, he kinda has some shit i guess? Last survivor of his old team, evaded what shoulda been death from nukes (I know that isn't a reveal in MGS2, we already knew he was alive, still). Oh yeah and he's CHANNELING THE FUCKING DEAD AND WEARING PARTS OF A DEAD GUY ON HIS BODY FUCK HOLY SHIT FUCKING WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU NEED EVERYTHING SPELLED OUT FOR YOU HOW DO YOU EVEN PLAY THESE GAMES WITH THEMING THAT IS DIGESTIBLE BY FUCKING TWEENS IT'S NOT THAT HARD.

I love you.

I thought he was part of their team or working with them. It's hard to keep track of Ocelot.

I know what you mean, this dude posts in every thread about how the AI "lies" I'm every fucking thread without grasping the theme of "no true reality" that the game presents.

My theory is that he has some deep seeded trust issues within his family and associates them with this game cuz he probably played it as a kid. I remember in one thread he was saying something to that effect.

I hope you get help bro but stop posting in these threads cause it triggers me every time

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He was pretending to work with them, yes. But working with them doesn't make you a part of the team. Do you think the tengus all count as Dead Cell? Or like....pretty sure Solidus never said he was part of the actual dead cell team. Ocelot was just Solidus' old double agent who flew the coop when he did. Ofc he's actually a triple agent who flew the coop to help make things go the way the patriots wanted and shit, but you know what i mean.

He's working with them, but the terrorists as an umbrella are called the Sons of Liberty, which includes Solidus and Dead Cell, Gurlukovich Mercenaries (Ocelot and Olga), and whoever the fuck the Arsenal Tengu were (they didn't have Russian accents)

why does Kojima hate Solidus?

Because he's just angry that h wrote his best character ever and could never find a way to surpass him.

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The whole point wasn't that the whole thing was "fake". Just like a failsafe has to be rpoven to be able to work against a real threat the SSS plan had to be tested both through controlled situations and an honest to god real attack by outside forces out of the Patriots contorl. Otherwise it wouldn't do shit against society.

Saying it's fake undermines the whole plan. Even snake chatsizes raiden for thinking he can handle shit just through VR alone.

>someone actually defending a one-button action requiring three times as many buttons

Not even the same guy but come the fuck on.

>plot
Worse than MGS1
>gameplay
Better than MGS1
>bosses
Worse than MGS1
>graphics and technology
Better than MGS1
>overall
MGS2>MGS1

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It's supposed to be ambiguous my dude. It's ultimately irrelevant since MGS2 is generally aware of its identity as a video game and by its very nature it's not real.

One of MGS2's major themes is that of ambiguity of reality. Think back to Snake's speech at the end.

"There's no such thing in the world as absolute reality. Most of what they call real is actually fiction. What you think you see is only as real as your brain tells you it is."

"It's not whether you were right or wrong, but how much faith you were willing to have, that decides the future. The Patriots are a kind of ongoing fiction too, come to think of it...."

"Listen, don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide."

This. Solidus is also a great antagonist and the speeches him, Snake, and Raiden give at the end are beautiful. Still my favorite game ever, it makes me happy.

It's genuinely the only piece of media I can think of that makes a case for a positive outlook on postmodern life without sugarcoating what postmodern life actually looks like.

I feel nothing. I didn't play it for the story, because that part is fucking horrible. MGS1 had a good spy thriller cold war feel to it with just a slice of over the top here and there but nothing too far removed from typical James Bond film. While 2 was just ape shit, but not in a DragonBall or Commando in on the joke kinda way, but more like a conspiracy theorist lizard blog kinda way.

I played it because it was a massively impressive engine on the PS2 and putting C4 on the backs of bad guys doesn't get old.

>but you just didn't understand it
No I got it. But no really SSS stands for Semi Sausage Samsonite luggage snake!

Is this a Strand Game thread?

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Yea, not really. You're mixing reality (or rather you're boiling reality) with real vs VR, which is never even a debate that's brought up in MGS2 (I just replayed the game last week). Rather, the reality is tied into the concept of the sign and signifier, which the Patriots dive into when they're giving Raiden their raison d'etre. See and In short, with the growing digital age (and this was already happening in Japan and you can see parallels with certain anime from the mid-late 90s, such as SEL), there was/is a push for "truths" and lies to become reality and for people to create "digital selves" or for people to retreat into their own realities. The Patriots are trying to create a truth, but the truth that they're trying to create is just "a truth" and not "the" truth.

Thus, what Snake is saying to Raiden is this: with the overburden of information, it's not important to ascertain what is real/truth in the world beyond what you experience, because what you experience is all that matters in the end and is what you'll pass on.

Again, get the document of MGS2. You'll see that there's nothing in Kojima's notes about making it ambiguous regarding whether the events take place in VR or in the real world, and it's pretty clear that the events actually happened in reality (the game's universe's reality). Pic related.

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It really all depends on what you crave from media. MGS1 had plenty of the same themes as 2 with snake feeling like a pawn to both the government and his genes, but 2 leans into those themes more strongly than 1 while 1 takes a backseat to present a more fun campy B-movie feel.

It's a bit slefish to say that the story is "fucking horrible" because it didn't appease your tastes.

>A well thought out and plotted story
See, I get people impressed by its conventions to use confusion in storytelling, but I don't know why there are people who insist they understood that, or mock others for not, then confuse conventions of a story for a story.

The instant the AI, i.e. the writers, inform Raiden, therefore you, they specifically chose him, you, because of how disconnected those like him, you, are and chose to be to become virtual legends is supposed to shake you, Raiden, the easily immersed and manipulated person who though they were holding the controls, into questioning your willful ignorance when it's used to control you, but it's also the instant anyone with sense can see the logic of both shrugging.

The sense of Raiden's last minute debriefing is glossed over as a big "oh why not" by the supposedly routine AIs because the writing wants you to know all after bothering to set all this premise up, but doesn't want to bother actually setting it all up in conclusion.

So they rant at him to rant at you, AFTER Solidus had just got done ranting about his ow futile endeavors to someone he's going to kill. And then both threats just threaten an ultimatum and cease discussion anyway.

OK.

MGS2 is like the Last Jedi of the MG series. It's strongest leg is fan receptions to subversion of a predecessor and cumbersome commentary about its usual audience and some unusual principles about free choice and influence.
But read straightforward by anyone outside of tolerant fans, that limp starts to show.

Something like Would You Kindly is better built and brought up to Jack and the player simultaneously since its purpose and divulging its purpose are simultaneous too, not an info dump after the fact.

>How does that make you feel?
Disappoined. The irony is since MGS2 on many levels was about not learning the truth, learning the truth ends up antithetical on many levels.

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Would You Kindly is just as much of a dumb forced plot device as the YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED PLAYING shit in Spec Ops.

I'm not saying its horrible because I didn't like it. I beat every mode and unlocked everything and did a Tranq only run including bosses that can be done that way, which is most of them if I recall.

I mentioned Commando. That movie has errors in it, is completely batshit crazy, and it knows it, which is why its fun. Dragonball Z is a retarded mess and is the same four beats to its story every time, but I like it anyway.

The story in MGS2 is horrible because its actually bad. They replace the main hero for the same reason Vaan is in FF12 it was a marketing appeal not a story choice. Its shallow. I didn't mind Raiden honestly, but you can tell why he is there isn't for quality it was to sell some copies.

Next part is Kojima is the M. Night of Japan. A twist isn't a story and the motherfucker is hamfisted as fuck and the more reign he got the worse he got.

So yes it is bad. You can still like it. The same way I like Commando or Dragonball Z or shitty burgerr I know I'll regret later. Sometimes that can be why you like it. But its still bad.

No, it was a story choice. Making him look a bishie was a marketing choice.

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You seem to have misunderstood what he said in that interview, Raiden's DESIGN was a marketing choice, not his reason for being in the game.

Still solid snake did have a inspiring speech in the end. It wasn’t too bad.

I agree with what you are saying about the Patriots, reality, and the control of truth, but I also feel that you are not reading into the game enough.

There is absolutely a theme of the interaction between VR (gaming) and reality presented in the game, think back to when Raiden meets "Pliskin" for the first time and they have a conversation about VR

"I've had extensive [VR] training -- the kind that's indistinguishable from the real thing."

And then later in a codec call snake signals this:

"Diminished sense of reality, huh? VR training will do that."

By the end of the game, coherency of the layout of arsenal completely falls apart. You see lines of code floating and hexagonal patterns following Raiden. The "Fission Mailed" screen and the craziness of Campbell indicate that the game or "simulation" is glitching out. Eventually you climb a ladder and end up in a VR field reminiscent of MGS VR missions, with no indication of where you came from or where you can go, and I must feel this is an intentional choice to draw into question the reality of the situation.

This theme can be compared to what you are talking about though, with the control of "truth" by entities greater than the individual. We are living in a virtual "real"ity.

PS I do own the document and have gone through it thoroughly and I do not feel that just because Kojima did not explicitly explain it that this theme is not there.

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N A N O M A C H I N E S
S O N

What was the point of the dogtags

I really wished they didn’t left out chinaman. Most of his supernatural powers ends getting transfer to vamp and female vamp was hot too.

Didn't misunderstand shit. I don't watch his fucking interviews and I damn sure didn't back then on early days low kbps DSL barely out of dial-up.

His design is what people didn't like and its splitting hairs anyway. People liked their grizzled spy and didn't get that in a bait and switch of a tech demo that was the first hour of the game.

The end of the game felt like it ran out of budget. And the but wait no it means this and no but really this even then struck me in the way a small kid would keep changing the rules of a game they made up so they can't lose. Its fucking stupid. It reads like fanfic of Jason Bourne.

Kojima is a great designer, not a great writer.

Its just being realistic. Hell I like FF7, the game's plot is standard issue super soldier plot #79. It builds a good game around something generic. In the same MG2 built a fun game around a batshit writer. But to his credit a broke watch is still right sometimes, that damn parrot saying her name still gets me.

Raiden it literally the player. The vast majority of people would have entered their name in. Then there was the fun concept of collecting shit to get prizes without the need of "trophies"

>Just a reminder that everything you did in Metal Gear Solid 2 was meaningless

MG1: A distraction
MG2: Doing the patriots will by taking down BB
MGS1: Pawn of the patriots
MGS2: Pawn of the patriots
MGS3: Pawn of the US government's plan, forming the patriots
MGS4: Stopping the patriots
Peace Walker: Completely meaningless
Ground Zeroes: Failed mission
Phantom Pain: Pawn of the patriots

Literally the only Metal Gear game where you do anything is 4.

but in MGS4 you are both a pawn of the Patriots and Ocelot

Kinda yeah, but hey at least the patriots fucking died.

Good job admitting your ignorance and then trying to shift the goal post

>They replace the main hero for the same reason Vaan is in FF12 it was a marketing appeal not a story choice.
Is what you said. People called you out on your bullshit. Instead of admitting you're wrong, you try to shift the goalpost and then further make yourself look like an idiot by admitting that you haven't read or watched his interviews, which would give you key insight into story/stylistic choices made.

You talk like you're some authority and expert regarding MGS2, but then admit your ignorant when it comes to it. You sound like a fucking Facebook/Twitter muppet who tries talking like an expert in a field, but they actually know nothing about it. Like you're Dinesh D'Souza or some shit.

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>By the end of the game, coherency of the layout of arsenal completely falls apart.
this. the theme should be apparent by the time snake pulls the "infinite ammo" gag.

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I think the problem is that MGS has that "gamey" feel to it where it knows it's a videogame and plays to it so most people just dismiss it as being one of those instances.

>MG1: A distraction
Ends up defeating the mastermind and stopping Metal Gear and Big Boss's plans
>MG2: Doing the patriots will by taking down BB
This doesn't make him a pawn. There was a real threat and Snake was sent in to stop it. He had agency. It wasn't like the entire thing was a set up.
MGS1: Pawn of the patriots
The Patriots didn't really have anything to do with Shadow Moses. MGS2 makes that clear beyond being pissed off at the entire thing and then trying to play clean up. But again, as with MG2, the entire thing wasn't a set up. There was an actual threat that Snake had to stop. Hence why the Patriots us Shadow Moses as the backdrop for their S3 plan
MGS2: Pawn of the patriots
And the whole thing is a set up
MGS3: Pawn of the US government's plan, forming the patriots
Of course, he's a government agent, but the entire thing is not a setup (for the most part). There was a real threat. Volgin was using the Philosopher's funds to build Shagohod. No one was trolling everyone behind the scenes.
MGS4: Stopping the patriots
Peace Walker: Completely meaningless
Ground Zeroes: Failed mission
Phantom Pain: Pawn of the patriots

I think you're being obtuse and missing the point: In MGS2, everything from the threat to the hostage situation to the bomb crisis to everyone that was there at the Big Shell (minus Snake) were all there because the Patriots willed for them to be there. They create a fake crisis so that they could test GW. No other game in the series has a plot revolving around this fact (that what you're doing is just a test for an AI). While the main character gets tricked or deceived, there are always "real" threats. But maybe "actual" threat would be a better phrase.

Except that isn't unique to MGS2. MGS games constantly break the 4th wall (President Baker tells you that Meryl's frequency is at the back of the disc. Pyscho Mantis reads your memory card and vibrates your controller, etc).

honestly feels like you didn't grasp the story by thinking that the "twist" comes out of nowhere and you said not to claim that you don't get it to deflect from this fact.

Patriot errand job or not, Zanzibar Land was still party in openly kidnapping and killing a innocent environmental scientist as part of a political power play, it's inexcusable.

If the Patriots had taken/killed Marv and pinned it on them that would be one thing, but instead Gray Fox, Big Boss and Madnar were all just going nuts over there until Snake arrived to sort them out and to make matters worse MGS1 and 4 tries to resolve it by having them all go "Aw, that was my bad dawg" like the whole ordeal was the equivalent of forgetting to pay Snake 5 bucks.

They were willfully insane terrorist killers, it really speaks to Solid Snake's empathy and tolerance that he was even willing to listen and believe their handwaving after how senselessly they tried to kill him after how sensibly he tried during MG2 to talk all of them out of dying over an ego trip. For fuck's sake I'm not sure where Psycho Mantis, Liquid and Naomi got off calling Solid Snake a remorseless killer and aberration when those three men they'd admired were humans who'd lost their shit at the drop of a hat.

those are both references to playstation. infinite ammo makes a reference to the game universe itself. theyre both 4th wall breaks sure but the latter has also self awareness.