What killed the MMORPG genre?

The holy trinity was a mistake.

ironically black desert online would be a really good successful traditional mmorpg, but thanks to the cash shop it's really way too cluttered

Popularity of WoW. MMOs are social games, so why bother with other ones when all your buddies are playing the same one.

I came here to see "that" image.

video games in general are moving away from p2p interaction. they want fewer and fewer dependencies between players. consequently, everything in mmos is now about being a cog in the machine. if you read conversations in game you'll see that people only really discuss game mechanics. the magic is gone.

Just once I would like to see an mom break the convention and have raid encounters not based around obvious damage sponge bosses with phases.

Why not a cyberpunk "Heist" mmo or something where teams split off to different sections of a mega structure like a small hacking group goes to storm the mainframe and start disabling security systems while a social manipulation/infiltration group goes to bribe, disguise, and sneak their way into secure areas and a tertiary group of getaway drivers sets up a perimeter on the exterior to prevent law enforcement or private security corps from accessing the building while securing an exit and then successfully extracting their agents and escaping by car chase?

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raid chads

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Nothing, it's doomed from the start. There's nothing any dev can do to make a limited game fun forever; sure they might be able to hold on to a few dedicated fans after a few years, but it's not sustainable for anything that isn't a juggernaut like WoW so most of them die off. After a while of playing the same game, people get bored. People can't hang around with their guild mates forever, they move on and have lives. All the "new content" that gets drip fed into the game is really just the same thing with a new coat of paint, because devs are limited by the constraints of the world they've created.

I played Runescape for around 5 years, and FFXIV for 3, and I have no desire to go back to either of those games, or any other MMORPG. I enjoyed them at the time, but I don't feel the same way anymore. I've changed and moved on.

tl;dr nothing "killed" the genre, it could never have been any other way to begin with.

if i recall correctly the matrix MMO was going to have shit like that, your hacker class teammates would literally be playing their hacking minigames to slow add spawns during fights, take down automated security systems like turrets, unlock doors to bypass enemies, etc. too bad it never got off the ground, played the beta back in the day, was very barebones but it had some unique ideas.

free to play chinkshit

When WoW Classic hits, Im sure people will beat Ragnaros as soon as physically allowed for with timegating being the only constraint (by poopsocking for months), and then bitch about this same thing. Repeat for all the other content phases.

Pretty much, raids are made by Method for Method (ft. Limit/Pieces sniping world firsts) these days. Other content is built around stopping them from running through it in a day but the rest of the playerbase gets timegated for months as a result. See video for example of an attempt at stopping them and how they got around it youtube.com/watch?v=BlF58st2Vsg

WoW and FFXIV mostly

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trannies and jews but unironically

which image

I dont fully understand the video because they seem to be talking about mechanics introduced long after I left wow, but let me see if I get it:

The game allows you to trade BoP items if you had a high item lvl equip placed on that slot previously, so they learned and unlearned professions on 5 alts per person to make a bunch of slots tradeable, then grinded the raid on all five of those characters to get x5 the loot and then trade it all to one raid group and then beat the raid. They also bought a shitton of BoE gear and crafting material, so many that they emptied the AH of several realms.

Is this correct? Because if it is then holy shit thats some autism.

Zeitgeist

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Devs stopped making games and instead started making skinner boxes.

>There's nothing any dev can do to make a limited game fun forever;
Is that how you feel about real life, too?

Memento mori, negro

>I played Runescape for around 5 years, and FFXIV for 3
No wonder you feel MMORPGs are shit

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Blizzard by catering to the lowest common denominator

Just like they killed fantasy RTS before

Yeah pretty much. All that work just so they could trade gear to each other to optimize their raid team's damage to get the raid down first. Keep in mind they've been raid testing the bosses before the raid was even out so other people don't stand a chance since they haven't gotten any practice. They also paid a pretty penny in real life money with all the server transfers which makes the whole thing kinda p2w. It's all so fucked and I don't understand why people don't speak up about it

Trying to get away from the holy trinity. GW2 was dogshit because of it.

I remember when Cata came out I got super serious about raiding. Was in a top guild as a spriest/holy and we pushed cutting edge (normally about 2-3 weeks behind world top guilds progression wise) and I remember being amazed at how much fucking time it takes to play at that level.
Having to have 2 top geared alts to run new comps in raids to see what raid comp is best for what fights and stuff like that. About 24 hours a week minimum of raiding alone not including the prep and everything else you’d do in the game.
The people in top guilds honestly deserve the praise they get because the amount of poopsocking was too much for me for even 1 xpac I have no idea how people do it for multiple xpac a in a row

How do you innovate an MMO? What would the next groundbreaking thing have to be to revive the genre?

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The saddest thing is that I can't tell if the image is facetious or not.

I\d play FFXI if the base game came with a subscription or at least some game time

DotA

Yeah wow is a complete joke. I looked up the "personal loot" system, I have no idea what the hell they were thinking.

Osrs is unironically probably the most enjoyable mmo out there right now. Especially the ironman modes
T. I have a 2.1k ironman

>tigole ruined everquest
>tigole ruined WoW
>tigole ruined FFXI and every MMO that came afterwards
>tigole went to lead overwatch and completely ruined it after 1 year.

They put in a shitton of work at the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. If these autists didn't exist and content wasn't crafted around them the game would be much better. FFXIV kinda met them halfway by introducing Ultimate fights that required that level of autism to clear but they kept the difficulty of savage to a point where a non-retarded group can pug it instead of making everything harder

WOW

I'm a sick fuck

Grinding

More than anything else it's casualization. The millions of people that developers want to pay for the game either cannot or will not play the game 7+ hours a day in order to make incremental progress. If you really want a good MMO, it by necessity must be limited to either poopsockers or a small dedicated fanbase that absolutely loves even mundane shit like seeing the next set of polygons on the distant mountain peak. The games need to be challenging to have longevity.

Second problem with MMO's has already been mentioned, the total investment in an absolutely terrible end game design. One shot encounter that once completed is no longer relevant. FFXIV for instance invests in a set of 4 hard mode end game battlegrounds with some big boss or other. By design, these encounters require a maximum of 40 minutes to complete because of timers. So content designed to sate you for 3 fucking months is completely done within less than an hour should everything go smoothly. There's that period before you memorize the battle patterns where it takes longer due to failure, but with constant lowering of the game's difficulty this doesn't take more than a week even for world firsts.

Basically, MMO's are shit because they no longer require any dedication to experience the theme park thrill.

How does one manage to shit into a sock?

user, any MMO that tried to innovate failed. people say they want something besides WoW, but then won't play anything that isn't like WoW.

Almost forgot to say
>tigole ruined the team shooter genre
Someone must stop that asshole before he ruins everything.

with a high-fiber diet

practice makes perfect

although it helps if you first buy up all the socks you can find from other servers

you'd be surprised

I’m kind of disappointed because raiding (and arenas) have been pretty good to great for most xpacs even if the rest of the game was dogshit.
But now you basically have to choose between dealing with retards and slogging through normal and heroic difficulty. Or you have to turbo autism 2nd job for mythics. And it seems like each xpac and patch the distance in difficulty between heroic and mythic grows. At least that’s how I feel.

I just mean, the logistics of it seem silly. You would have to rig it somehow so that it stayed open, unless you used socks without elastic like it was the 1950s. The time it would take to rig all of this up doesn't seem feasible. If you're so much of a degenerate that you can't spare five minutes in the bathroom, it would make more sense to get one of those children's faux training toilets.

>one of those children's faux training toilets
I think they would go for that if it looked like an epic mount.

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user...a medium trashbag in a 5 gallon bucket is all you need, sit on the bucket to shit then tie it up when done to trap the smell.

though i will admit that walmart knee socks are the best to shit in, they stretch much more

the fuck

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The best way I can rationalize it is they were fat with massive calves of fat, meaning they had massive socks that could be stretched open pretty far, so aiming wasn't an issue

1) network effects ensure a positive feedback loop where the biggest MMO gets bigger because the more players, the more others want to join the game, and likewise with smaller MMOs, they're small so nobody wants to give them a shot, and since nobody gives them a shot they stay small.
After the positive feedback loop occurs, the developer basically doesn't have to do shit because there's no longer any real competition for the foreseeable future, leading to complacency and diminishing quality.

2) MMOs have always had shit design. They're designed from the top down to be giant skinner boxes where you just go around grinding bullshit and doing quests like "go collect 20 donkey scrotums"

you want that worlds first right? you have to make sacrifices.

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It needs more silly hats.

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it comes with a month

usually the entire anthology is 50% off (so like $10) in November for the game's anniversary

It's not, but whoever made it mixed up the word "sieve" and "filter"

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social media and games killed mmos. no one ever played mmos for the gameplay. they only cared about digital chatroom and epeen measuring contests. new people who would have gotten into mmos ended up playing social games instead, and the minority of people who played because they wanted to explore a world just play bethesda games.

All I know is I never played WoW, so the fucking airship fight (before level cap was removed) was my filter.

single player games are unironically better for that sort of thing anyway. Anything involving multiplayer will inevitably lead to competition and wanting to get an edge over others no matter what. Which means at the expense of things like exploration, immersion, roleplaying, etc. Sure, you can powergame in single player RPG, but there's no compulsion to do so to keep up with others. You can powergame skyrim or you can do a strict RP and only do certain things

FFXI still unironically more fun than XIV. I wish I got more content faster.

But it ain't dead.
>FF14 literally passed a million subs
>New xpac coming this week
>Wow Classic in another few months

instances, wikis and datamining

Aren't mobile gachas the new MMOs?

He wiped his asshole with the sock and shit behind the bed

I can't believe Bobby Kotick himself is on Yea Forums.

I don't know but it use to be one of the few ways I could play AND talk to a ton of people rather than local/couch with friends.
Nowadays, I could just go online, find a lobby with 16 other people/friends and never notice the difference
Sad but I accepted they're dying

100% of what you said was wrong.

MMO's are way too grindy because they are designed to make people with addictive personalities sacrifice their work and personal lives in favor of spending all their waking hours in a game that on it's own is a 4/10 at best.

>If you spend 60 hours a week in this game you can get this achieve that matters to the .0000002% of the game population that will look up your character.

Making shit account bound and scaling level isnt a big deal but it does cut back on the grindy nature of the shit system. it's still a shit system though that will take too many hours of your life from you

Companies that try to stop the holy trinity and then implement something even worse or boring

See Guild Wars 2 and its mash every button at once combat

Casuals
Lack of understanding for the core gameplay loop
Social aspects dying

This.
Also the simplifying/casualizing it plus the fact that new MMOs can't compete with the 20 years of updates and content in the already established MMOs.

>>FF14 literally passed a million subs
>>New xpac coming this week
You act as if these aren't related, dummy

Give it 3-4 weeks and it will be

>not having subgroups
>missing out on rdps and mdps
>not having mitigating low health pool tank vs self heal large health pool tank
>not having a support healer who does lower dps but also offers healing as well as utility to both pure healers and pure dpsers
The triangle is a meme

Boring gameplay. It was fresh when EQ came out but we've had the same shit for years. MMOs won't be interesting again until we can play action games together on a mass scale.

I would happily take a game with complex gameplay but shit graphics, I'm quite bored with the chasing of graphics when we can use computer architecture to instead render more objects and players on screen

Developers giving players what they wanted instead of what was best

The expansion hasn't come out yet user.

It wasn't the holy trinity. That shit is still dank af.

That's what he said, are you retarded?

Too much risk involved in making one for it to ever be something most studios are willing to fund.

trying not to downplay the mm part

They didn’t have enough loot boxes for real money.

Tigole will be leaving Blizzard soon. OW2 will be his last game.

>Poop-sockers
>high-fiber diet

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Why would the player count go down just after an expansion releases? It hit the 1 million mark while in a content lull.

is there any role that could really add to the trinity? or can we only break it into its base parts? stripping buffs from every class and making a buffer, Making ground and air versions of every class.

The proliferation of third party knowledge bases.

Support is often a suggestion, but at that point why not put buffs and debuffs on the already existing roles?

People come back a couple months before a content drop to get ready for the new content. Can't start on the gear treadmill if you don't have the requisite gear.

>why would reducing the number of people who can play a game cause the playercount go down

??

I don't think the player count is going to drop below 1 million, and if it does, I wouldn't expect it to happen until there's decent competition in the genre. (i.e. Classic WoW)

Retard.

Support should do more than buff and debuff. Support should have basically all the CC. This is what jack-of-all-trades classes are supposed to be. You aren't a focused role because you have several specialisms which are useful and unique to none of the trilogy.

DPS should be doing nothing but braindead number pushing. Tanks should be doing nothing but taking damage and maintaining threat. Healers etc. EQ and WoW fucked this up by putting everything on the 3 major roles when it should have been split. Warriors should not have amazing CC, stuns out the ass, best tank, best at PvP. DPS should not be doing CC

>>not having mitigating low health pool tank

This is what I miss the most from lord of the rings online with the warden. The warden didn't have heavy armor like captains and guardians. They wore medium armor and had the gambit system. You had 3 moves, a weapon attack, a shield bash, and a shout. You use them to build combos for different effects. You had damage over time (several types, one that is a strict bleed, one light damage, one whatever your weapon proc damage was like Beleriand elf damage for extra damage to insects and beasts), heals over time, threat, threat over time, defensive buffs, and utility skills. Like you had one skill that would give you back power (mana) but could only be used at less than 50% health. So it took practice to be able to manage which of your heal over time skills to stack together to keep you at 40% - 50% health (called morale surfing) until you got your power back and then could heal yourself to full again. It was the perfect character for multiple bosses in a fight since I could just manage on my own while the rest of the party took care of the second boss. It would take a while to kill anything, but they couldn't kill me unless it was a lucky crit or a mechanic. Also made it the best class for solo shenanigans.

Not to mention I found it hilarious to make my tank a hobbit, so that I would be stabbing most enemies in the shins with my spear.

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>the most enjoyable mmo out there is the one where you play the singleplayer mode

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I'd turn that around with
>Players wanting to progress faster by any means even if it means paying money for it.

Everything started with illegal RMT, players were willing to pay in order to obtain items/gold/levels in MMOs. Publishers saw that, at first tried only to fight it (which cost them money both with paying GMs, chasing bots etc. but also in loss of subs because of banned players). Then they realized: let's beat RMTs at their own game and sell gold/items ourselves directly. Now you have basically modern MMOs/mobile RPGs.

It ALL started because of retards wanting to pay more to gain an advantage, nothing else. Publishers never had the idea from the get go to sell power. This came from players themselves, as retarded as they are. Even games like didn't easily enable you to use two accounts (like DAoC) at first, changed their policy to adapt to the demand of players having buffbots. Mythic (before it was even EA) saw that people were willing to pay 2 subs in order to have an advantage, so they make it easier for people to do so (in the past you couldn't dualbox on the same machine, you needed 2 PCs), they made so you could run the game client twice on one machine after that.

You can legitimately see that loop in action with any private servers that share a patch/login server.

Again going with lord of the rings online, support was an important part of groups. Burglars could choose from a bunch of different debuffs like dust in the eyes (I think a 40% or 50% accuracy debuff, can be traited to affect a cone), others that reduced attack speed, defense, etc. They could then use another skill to "eat" the debuff in exchange for a powerful attack. They could also start fellowship maneuvers for big effects depending on what the team needed. Captains were the ultimate support class with tons of buffs, off-healing, and their standard gave even more buffs, or they could use an NPC pet isntead of the standard for DPS and utility. Loremasters were good damage dealers and great for off-healing and AoE debuffs like sticky gourd (enemies in the tar from the gourd are slowed and take more fire damage and burn for more damage per tick). Their pets are essentially another spell and offer more buffs or debuffs to the group (ravens increase defense, bears reduced enemy armor, cats had a bleed, etc.) I really miss playing the game, but after they "streamlined" the skills to be more in line with WoW they destroyed any kind of builds that were there in exchange for just whatever had better DPS.

I will never forgive those cunts for making warden one of the only classes oyu have to pay to play. Fuck that shit I want my spear & shield and I'm not buying a fucking sub.

I haven't played in years, I thought you got access to warden with the moria expansion? Or do you need to uy it now because of F2P?

If an MMO is F2P then I refuse to drop a single solitary cent into it, so it doesn't matter, I ain't buying the expansions either. But I know that I can't make a warden on my account which is totally f2p.

this man speaks the truth

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Age.

If you look at the playerbase. It used to be 12+ kids playing runescape&co and now it's 25+ for mmo players.

The gerne simply couldn't continue as it was because the modern playerbase doesn't have the time to nolive.

you fix it by scrapping it entirely along with tab targeting

Well that blows. Still, you are better off. When they did upped the skill cap for one of the expansions a few years ago they changed at what level you got your skills at. They only added a few skills to the high levels and spaced everything else out to fill in the gaps. Wardens got majorly fucked, their main tanking skills got pushed into the 50's, their skills that gave more options to deal with tanking got pushed to within 10 levels of max. You literally couldn't hold aggro against a fucking hunter, burglar, minstrel in war stance, champion, or a loremaster until level 50+. Until then you were just a substandard DPS.

100% this. Not having system build in to let players run the game, and also let other players fight back. Eve is the closest thing to an open universe no rules game. But the combat sucks, and there are no fantasy games that come close.

Devs have come close, but they keep missing the thing that would truly make their game great. Devs need to embrace the community for creating the majority of their content. Castle sieges on player created towns and settlements would go a long way. Have dynamic populations for NPCs to move into towns and become shop keepers or farmers or whatever would also create a more liveable world where players don't have to do boring things if they don't want to. Creating a world where all cities either creator their own items based on local resources or what is traded to them via caravans. Allowing rogue guild players to go and pvp and steal from the caravans, for their outlaw player towns. What this does it created roles for players who want to trade, who want to defend the traders for a profit and rogue players get the ability to steal. Just from having a trading system that is robust the game now also has a living economy where town depends on trade goods or they will become ghost towns, crafters depend on items from different regions that economically doesn't make sense to go on their own and gather.

A game needs to have a healthy trading economy in an open world, where all equipment is crafted, and everything is player driven and supplemented by dynamic NPC AI. End game dungeons are a way to get high-end materials to crafter better gear to keep the pvp economy going. Also to remove items from the game due to durability on items where their overall durability degrade after each repair. This will keep high-end items in demand and crafters always crafting. Keeping the system constantly moving to require players to keep playing.

RMT was only a consequence of their design.
>lets make a competitive pvp enviroment
>force them to grind hours pve to be viable in pvp

Locking one type of content behind a completely different kind was a major failure. Players who would only want to play the latter would naturally flock to any shortcut available.

And it got worse due to
with a aging playerbase having increasingly more people with a job but no time more and more would try to buy into the gameplay they actually wanted to play.

This is an important point that people often overlook, however I still disagree that this is the defining problem of the genre.

The defining problem of the genre is the high risk of creating MMOs. They require a large amount of resources (Time, Story/Lore building, PvP+PvE, Balancing, Servers, etc) with a great chance of failing because its a market dominated by the juggernauts like WoW. Why play any MMO that someone finds inferior to the already popular and unique ones? That being said, MMOs that are successful end up profiting more than single players.

Developers have a much better chance of breaking into other markets with less investment put into their games.

Albion online.
The problem is it's 2.5d moba combat. Not exactly what one would wish for.

Yeah, this.
Being cruel and mean are a part of human interaction. Attempts to make padded walls makes an artificial experience that is no different than just playing single player.

If another player can't fuck me over or act like an asshole, what's the point? I'm playing with glorified NPCs at that point who are probably worse at the game than the NPCs would be.

The continuously increasing cost to develop, update, and maintain bigger and better MMOs combined with a slowly dying userbase of MMO players hopping over to mobile games and the like means that most MMO developers are dying off or switching to mobile game development because it's many times cheaper and just as, if not many times more profitable.

that and the 2 or so generations of people that grew up with MMOs no longer have time to play them as they've reached adulthood and have jobs or have kids now.

Shit argument, the early generation of MMOs like EQ/DAoC/FFXI (basically whatever was decently popular pre-WoW) had a mature audience. I remember in my DAoC guild over half members had children, were like 25~35, the other half were mostly university student or young worker (18~25), only very few players were 16 or below since you needed a credit card to play (early on), no prepaid cards and kids wouldn't get their parents to pay for an MMO sub easily back then. Not to mention that broadband was nearly mandatory to play and that required lot of money too.

Likewise for FFXI, your typical FF XI JP player was a salaryman that was 30+. It was the target demographic really, not children/teens. Publishers needed people with a credit card to make money, so they target adults, online payments weren't what they are today.

RMT was rampant on FF XI and there was literally no PvP (well there was a pvp mode but no one even bothered to play so it doesn't matter). People are willing to RMT even in PvE game, you see it in mobile game too, even where there's no PvP, people pay lots of money just to go faster and not grind.

If GW2 had the holy Trinity it would be the best mmo on the market.

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>playing the old republic back in the day
>get to tatooine
>play a sniper
>stealth my way to the back of a republic camp
>far enough that I don't aggro the NPC max level guards
>but close enough that I can target players getting off the fast travel speeders
>if they respawn in the same camp they spawn right near the speeder
>if they spawn at the main camp, its another 5 minute speeder ride, until they are again killed upon arrival
>hate mail for days

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XI had rmt cause it was a cheat code for entry level endgame. You could instantly get HQ staves, Amemet+1, REMA, etc (depending on era of game). So you are right, pvp isnt the only thing that pushes RMT.

People expect to be able to consume 15 years of content development in 24 hours under the umbrella heading of "Accessibility".

t. World of Warcraft

the player base

People did RMT even for endgame items they couldn't afford. Like Gaiters or paying for Sky Loots etc. You literally had RMT running business of selling Rare/Ex endgame items for gil and RMT selling gil for $, so the whole cycle was covered.

>"I only play wow/xiv because everything else is worse by comparison!"
If you've ever said this you're the reason MMOs are shit and should kill yourself. That extends to all modern wow/xiv players in general.

You have to consider the size of the market. The earliest days it was very niche. I'm sure you find the same amount of 30+ noliving mmo's as before. However for the mass market the majority won't do it and that's where we current are. tldr: the early days demographic is not indicative of the mass market player behaviour we have today.

As for RMT. The argument is solid but too limited. It's not PVP players just skipping PVE. Any type of content that is not desirable by the player is a reason to pay for skipping it. It doesn't really matter what it is. The most common thing is not even the content type but the grind. People lack time as mentioned before and so they pay to skip the grind. Raid carries are the best example for that. And here again i would say it got worse because more people have jobs and can pay for it nowadays.

the 'G' part became the focus
MMORPGs are filled with minmaxxers and spreadsheet obsessed accountants.
They don't see MMOs as a world to explore but a game to exploit and sadly both the devs and the playerbase have resonated with that train of thought.

The dev's arguably trained the players into it.
The early days of exploration died when they implemented waypoints and map indicators. Sure you could use always websites but it trivialized it to the point people can't even avoid not following the ingame gps.

Secondary look at dungeon design. Dungeons got linearized from large multi-path instances with many optional stuff to streamlined kill trash kill boss cycle ^x = clear.

I PAID FOR IT AND I WANT TO SEE IT NOW!

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While the market was smaller for sure, what made the population older is purely technicalities like payment methods, access to broadband, access to a decent gaming PC and so forth. That instantly filtered out young people. Any game behind a credit card wall is going to have a population older than a game allowing prepaid cards, sms payments or even worse, being F2P. It wasn't very niche that being said, when a game like FFXI had 500K players already in like 2004 when XIV struggled to push over 1M despite spending 50x more in marketing and launching twice. DAoC had around 250K, EQ 400K etc. That's not niche. Almost no game can pull out such numbers today, especially not for longer than 3 years.

People just pay because they want more power faster that's it, regardless of how grindy something is. Keep in mind that the issue wasn't just the grind but people being literally BAD at making money. In a game like FF XI your average noob had no clue about what to farm and wouldn't be able to generate money easily. Good players knew what to camp, when, how to optimize their farming rotation, team up with friends to maximize profits etc. What is often perceived as extremely grindy wasn't so grindy if you weren't retarded. It was the same on DAoC and I was selling money myself so I'm perfectly aware of that. I was generating about 5+ platinum per hour farming specific ToA camps, I was selling 5 plat for 25 euros on eBay, I'd get about 23 euros net ouf of that. 25€/hr. Sounds like a lot? Well to my customers farming 5PP would take them 5+ hours, so them it was like 5€/hr to skip the "grind" and they were perfectly content with that.

You can't really scrap it 100% but you can add sub roles.

Wow

Before WoW's success, MMO developers didn't yet know how to make a bankable MMO and were more concerned with exploring the genre and making unique experiences you couldn't get from any other genre.

After WoW's success devs learned how to make an effective skinner box and started making MMOs around the same 'Do Quest, Get Loot, Level Up, Repeat' formula that every single post-WoW MMO is built upon today. MMOs aren't allowed to be fun and interesting anymore, they have to recoup development costs by being glorified dungeon crawlers.

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Allowing players to be dicks also gives them the choice not to be dicks. In WoW, being helped by the opposite faction felt memorable because you generally jumped at each other's throats.

>Think about getting into another MMO
>Look up my options
>Look up payment plans and subs
>Think about how much time I have to play games nowadays
>No longer want to get into another MMO

we killed the genre

>those alliance players that helped my little horde hunter tame an owl
>cleared out enemies for me and escorted me along the roads until I got to the zone
>later help alliance hunters get the named white lion
>kept the quest uncompleted in my log so I could spawn it for other players when I was in the area

I was trying to compare the average player who went into later mmo's like wow/teso/... vs early day player starting on EQ. The requirements you mentioned filtered the average normal adults out. That's why i think adult behaviour in EQ days should not be compared to the majority of adult behaviour in post-wow days. You could say that even in general - tech illiterate casual users joined the web later and changed the entire market while the early adopters became outcasts everyone dropped in pursuit of higher profits from the freshly arrived masses.

The MMO

>laughing beolves
>Agrias in the picture

wat

after they get bored of the treadmill, duh

>he didn't hear

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I was playing mmos before wow
Everyone left all the smaller MMOs when wow came out and all the Devs copied literally everything from wow
Wow ruined MMOs

How is this supposed to work in PVP? Why would dps every target tanks instead of hitting healers or DPS?
How does this tie into quest design? Do you end up having the same amount of quests about killing wolves and collecting their tails, as you do about tanking damage or healing NPCs? Or do MMOs not do that and only train you to DPS and reward DPS players through quests

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Umm sweetie? World of Warcraft made MMOs ACCESSIBLE.

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People on focused on becoming the "WoW Killer" instead of just designing a fun and rewarding world that makes the journey fun. They try and cram all the content into the end game but once you're there it turns into "Why bother" unless you have a very large player base to keep it up.

If people tried to copy Runescape instead we'd have much better MMOs, focused on the journey and on content that isn't just combat or end game. You don't even need to go super in depth with it, look at fishing in Runescape, it's simple as fuck and gives depth to the economy beyond just buying pots from an NPC and gear from people.

Unironically Discord

Casuals who wanted all the advantages (gearwise) of hardcore raiding or PvP, without committing even a fraction of the time
and the Developers who were all too eager to ensure those aforementioned didn't stop renewing for their false sense of elevated worth

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Ramza is gay. That picture is a lie.

the core problem is that mmos are shit games that people would rather pay someone else to play for them than play themselves.

Chinks and gooks
Corporate greed
Devs pandering to whiny entitled carebears instead of actual good and dedicated players

The first that use the trinity model instead of the pentagon model including the other roles of buff/debuff and Mez

You are gay, and I want a divorce

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Multiple different approaches.
Most common pvp is objective based and tanks are the best one to hold it.
Some give tanks moe cc skills, some allow pvp taunt skills that reduce damage against anyone but the tank.
Quite rare there's body collision and tanks can actually block as a true meatshield standing in front of their squishy teammates.

As for questing - tanks = kill slowly 10 enemies at same time while dd kills quickly 1 mob after another because he lacks the defense to fight many.

>Unironically BBS
>Unironically IRCs
>Unironically Forum boards
>Unironically Guild-only Forum boards
>Unironically Mumble/teamspeak
>Unironically Skype
>Unironically integrated chat systems
>Unironically website/program specific chat rooms
>Unironically Discord

Imagine ACTUALLY hating the march of progression

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MMORPGs should have been destroyed after Meridian59

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Homogenization, lack of fail states, removing the necessity to network with people, and streamers.

No, this one.

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Don't.....just don't try and pretend your literal who game was ever something anyone outside you and your friends played

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GTA ONLINE HEISTS ARE LITERALLY WHAT YOU DESCRIBE

jewish identity politics made creating a society based on merit impossible

I'm still holding out hope New World/ Chronicles of Elyria will let me build and manage my own town and keep das juden out

Fuck off zoomer, the best MMOs were pre-WoW

could just try something dumb like that one mmorpg minecraft server

>How is this supposed to work in PVP? Why would dps every target tanks instead of hitting healers or DPS?
The onyl MMo I remember that had an answer for this was Warhammer. Tank taunts worked in PVP and made you do 30% less damage to anyone who wasn't the tank, then they could guard someone and take 50% of the damage done to the person on top of that. Sometimes killing the tank was close to the only way to take down a healer or DPS.

XI, RO, Runescape, SWG, RF, Ultima, AO
I played all those fucking games, even ROSE online, god rest its sould
But i've NEVER heard of your janky ass, never mentioned ass, simply unimportant ass, literally who ass, max pop was 3 digits ass, sounding game

generic japanese "hey lets save the princess' tiara/dress/shoe" bullshit

Zoom zoom lil zoomey

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>Bring back potion chugging and lifesteal
Every girl gamer would instantly be out of a job

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Theme parks + casualization. The amount of work it takes to make constant content that dries up in a second is retarded. The content can't last a long time or else it'd be too hardcore. Thus you need a ton of money to simply keep lemmings barely entertained every week.

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In elder scrolls online you can build most character any way you want. Using gear sets you can make a magicka sorcerer that has 50K health in the pvp area (most tanks run 55k to 60K). They give up quite a bit of potential damage for that health, but with that much health they can probably take out a tank one on one in short order. A magicka character could also take stealth traits and be a nightblade and make a kind of shadow magicka caster. Attack from stealth, slow the enemy, then finish them with health drains and ice magick. And both of them can heal as well to be useful. Its pretty interesting how many potential builds you can make.

I was enjoying the old school taou private server but I got tired of being a meme so I dipped to a different game

I was the only blue mage tank on the server and people didn't beleive what I was capable of, knowing every spell at once and able to hot swap between then im combat was not a thing in normal ff11, nor was trick attack never falling off and making all your spells auto crit if you didnt auto attack

FFXI did it best. 6 men work together synergistically.

Tank
Healer
Nuker
Physical damage duo team for skillchains
last slot reserved for Buffer / Debuffer / Hate control / just a party mascot

considering everyone complains wow is too easy now, how does this apply anymore

noobs are what makes MMOs great. So to ostracize them is ironic. We were all noobs once and thats what makes playing the game so good the first time, until you pour countless hours and become a souless husk that is a veteran and you realize the game combat is shallow - the DPS charts don't matter but you still grind for the best gear because min maxing has become an obsession just so you have the big dick damage and tryhards go "that boy, he alrite"

>tfw the MMO you play is still alive and is pretty decent
If only the devs weren't so much of a retards.

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I honestly can't think of anything still alive that hasn't changed radically

The shithead mmo players who will play the game for life as long as they can get instant gratification.

It's why WoW turned to shit and it's why FF14 does so well. Just idiots paying a sub for a glorified VR chat so small autismo part of the community can do the 1 really hard raid and they can all pretend they are playing a game of skill and knowledge.

runescape

/thread
Basically any garbage mechanic that gets pushed boils down to this.

No amount of shit would fix GW 2 when these guys were around.

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devs balancing games and updates to fit the lowest denominator and adding shit for the silent majority

they only really listen to player feedback if they can make money off it

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Dofus. And yeah, surprisingly it's still alive. Monoaccount servers and ignoring multiboxers was the right idea after all

Forget adding to the trinity, all you need is the buffer.

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The fact that the people who made and played MMORPGs went from being tabletop rollist to clueless faggots obsessed by video game mechanics who don't know shit about actual RPGs.

The this the one and only reason why mmos are dead and you faggots don't even realize it.

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People also look at new MMOs and bitch because they don't have 10+ years of content like WoW and FF do.

Meanwhile when I have nothing to do, I log off and get on the actual VRChat. It's better that way.

Originally, MMOs appealed to a niche of outcasts, like the Internet in general did, but WoW casualized the genre, opening the doors for Mr. T and Verne Troyer. Now, I'm not someone who likes to say attracting new fans to a hobby kills it, but WoW's success caused MMOs to basically be redefined as WoW clones and I think this alienated the original fans while the more mainstream audience simply moved on to the next shiny object. However, that's an improvised just-so-story. The current popularity of WoW and FFXIV makes me feel like the genre isn't dead at all, developers have simply given up trying to compete when there's fresher, cheaper alternatives.

I also think part of the allure of MMOs was being connected to tons of people and that probably doesn't feel very novel in 2019 where everyone has instant access to everyone else across several platforms they carry with them in their pocket at all times. When I tried to make the jump from XI to XIV, I noticed something that absolutely puzzled me, which was that there aren't many websites where you can look up in-depth information on stiff, and the reason is no one needs to. Maybe you can watch a video to figure out how to fight a boss, but otherwise, you don't need to know jackt. This is so bizarre to me because half the things I loved about XI were fan sites. You just do what the game says now. There's zero sense of mystery or discovery and it makes the game feel small to me.

Logically, there are people of the current generation who would've played MMOs had they been around back in the day, so the question is: what are they playing instead? And my guess is: anything, because everything's online now.

Meanwhile, everyone I still talk to who played XI says they loved it, but they wouldn't do it again. They don't need a second life when they have a family, they've spent enough hours of their life grinding, etc.

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MMOs aren’t dead they just aren’t novel since online games are the norm now.

The whole word is incredibly easy to go through but the top raid challenge are incredibly hard.
However, they get nerf once the top guilds manage to beat it. Which means that the true content is only made for those guide, it is then trivalized to make it doable for everyone

>People just pay because they want more power faster that's it, regardless of how grindy something is. Keep in mind that the issue wasn't just the grind but people being literally BAD at making money. In a game like FF XI your average noob had no clue about what to farm and wouldn't be able to generate money easily.
FFXI wasn't exactly easy to make money in (compare with LOTRO), but I had my first 1M in like 4 months back in 2008. That was on the down-slide from the absurdly inflated economy when RMT ran rampant. The only thing that stopped me from continuing to make bank was Level Sync made level 20 gear unnecessary. (red grass was needed for the "good" lv 20 gear)
But then I just started looking for more things to make money from, ended up with 300M at the high, still had like 75M-80M left after making a mythic.

Niggers and other 3rd world trash with

>real life tank
>has a fucking cannon
>video game tank
>does no damage
explain this mmotards

I hate those fucking """sandbox"""" mmos where the endgame is
>use a bot to get a plot of land
>plant some shit
>go on trade runs where you have a slow ass cart and need to transport shit from point A to B

It was the first MMORPG (non-MUD) you retard

Depends on the MMO. Some MMOs let the Tank do stupid amounts of damage too. Then there are MMOs that don't let them do any and they only exist to hold aggro.

Two of the three trinity roles revolve around teamwork, support, and protection. Damage dealing is a skill check based on executing a series of consecutive button presses without the need for much communication and coordination. It is the odd man out, and ever since WOW, has perpetuated a sham of a team-based PVE design that has weakened the genre as a whole.

The original trinity was Tank, Heal, and Control, from the three necessary classes for an EQ raid, Warrior, Cleric, and Mesmer to handle dangerous spells or adds. One way to fix the design is to focus all player roles on teamwork in this manner. Another way might be to build a less coordination-heavy game around a more engaging 'skill check', like an MMOFPS.

Human nature.

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MMOs were serious business
youtube.com/watch?v=Opl77bP7vbY

nothing justifies barrens chat and the type of soccer moms who play/played WoW

how come dota players can play the same map over and over for years but mmo players get bored of a raid as soon as they get the loot from it? it's because no one actually likes playing mmos.

>Keep in mind that the issue wasn't just the grind but people being literally BAD at making money. In a game like FF XI your average noob had no clue about what to farm and wouldn't be able to generate money easily. Good players knew what to camp, when, how to optimize their farming rotation, team up with friends to maximize profits etc. What is often perceived as extremely grindy wasn't so grindy if you weren't retarded.
I think you're oversimplifying it and ignoring a few things.
1. Most people didn't want to do it - at all - even if you told them what to do. They wanted to hang out with their friends, level jobs and do end-game, and they had no time for farming.
2. The people who made a lot of money in FFXI could've only done it because there were so many people not doing it. Competition and an increase in supply causes prices to fall. Not everyone can "just do what the rich person did," it doesn't work that way.
3. The need for money in FFXI was always kind of a meme. The best gear you got from end-game and the Black Mage with +2 INT over the other Black Mage wasn't in another league or anything. Most people's desires for money came from wanting to feel awesome as opposed to actually being awesome. 2016 notwithstanding.

>steamcharts.com/app/893390
Looks like a shit game all in all, nice player count btw LOL

>They don't need a second life when they have a family, they've spent enough hours of their life grinding, etc.
Don't forget your friends, family, job, and friends!

youtube.com/watch?v=vEbwoo3lLwQ
>True DnD feels mmo never ever again
>DnD just turned into WoW nowaday anyway

All hopes are lost.

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As someone who played wow in Vanilla, what I hate now is lack of abilities in general and the abilities you do have are boring shit which doesn't really matter because you steamroll through the game like it's nothing
There's also no sense of identity to the classes themselves which boggles my mind, why remove the class quests in the first place?
Flying mounts ruined both the sense of the size of the world and eliminated the dangers, you don't longer have to trek through dangerous lands to get to your objective because you just get on a flying mount or get a taxi that's fucking everywhere (The Wetlands as a NE springs to mind)
You don't have to really plan your moves in dungeons, no cc is really needed and no patrols to watch out for
No need of reading the quest log to figure out where the objective is, no writing out coordinates from Thottbot
It's always the small things you don't think about but when they're gone, it's really noticeable

tl,dr no sense of progression or challenge

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No two Dota games are the same, because it's PvP with two teams of five players who are each using a unique character that gets updated every 6 months.
A raid is always the same and you optimize for it.
Is that a fair comparison, Stephen Hawking?

Because DotA games keep adding in new units, with infinite varieties and play styles with altering forms of play (china loves to farm, EU loves to dive, NA loves to lose)
Not to mention patches come out every 2 weeks on average

MMO's on the other hand, love to streamline and simplify rather than diversify and complicate (in a good way)

Albion Online looks and plays like an extremly bland and souless version of Runescape

I wonder how many people read that every day and ignored it every single time.

Me, as someone who made one of the XI fansites back in the day.

I almost want to try FFXI just to play Blue mage, still 200% mad about FFXIV.

Yeah I agree, but when you think about it, DPS are unnecessary, The trinity could have originally just been healers and tanks that just deal damage while tanking.

That's what I thought Guild wars 2 was doing based on its initial trailer where the shield guy would block what seemed like real time fire. Would love a really in depth DnD sort of game or MMO where it's fully real time, but carefully checked for fuckery so you can actually advance as a party with your shield guy blocking shit, or walling off passages while archers or mages throw fireballs over the top of the shield. And then things like getting overwhelmed by huge numbers, or enemies small enough to squeeze through or big enough to smash walls would fuck you regardless.

I feel like that's all modern MMOs are. Paladins are just cleric/warriors, Deathknights are necrowarriors, A hunter is just a rogue with a bow and a minion.

I think it would be cool if a role was there just to deal with big spells/abilities. Someone who interrupts, absorbs, shields, or changes the laws of physics to sway impacts etc.

FPS RPGs are always just so fucky though. I don't know if all devs are just lazy, or no one has found a way to make 3D multiplayer combat that isn't buggy or highly exploitable. Maybe 3rd person would be easier.

I didn't have a lot of fun playing BLU because I felt like I wasn't doing much, even if the numbers said otherwise. Maybe it's the animations. I'm pretty sensitive to that kind of thing.

But I had a ton of fun learning spells. I'll never forget my spontaneous adventures with friends traveling the world in search of spells. One of my fondest memories was running through a snowstorm with my Taru friend trying to learn Ice Break from Golems, she got bound and asked me to carry her. Dual wielding scimitars was also neat.

Theme parks

Theme park/sandbox are meaningless buzzwords at fhis point, now people claim if there’s instances at all it’s a theme park.

I'm convinced that the real reason for the decline is that developers aren't fostering the sense of community any more. Game mechanics keep making it easier for players to play alone with automated group finding and all these games including big individual story components. I think all the other "cancers" like theme parks and casualization and cash shops and whatever could all be managed if the pieces were just in place for people to want to communicate.

In your opinion, what are meaningful definitions for the two terms (if there are any)?

mmos are shit because of three things
1. they are by definition jack-of-all trades games. they offer you a billion things to do. usually all options are shitty, but there are enough options to keep you going in circles picking up and dropping timesinks within the game. generally all options in an mmo are shitty.
2. there are a ton of games out that are specialist games. they offer you one thing to do. they generally do this well or fail asap.

if this above model continued uninterrupted, mmos would be dead almost immediately, so what happens? some specialization occurs. mmos decide to become about the 'raiding.'
3. the false specialization into 'raiding' of mmos doesn't actually offer the player anything more than what occured before- it's still about a game that offers everything, but it's giving you a constantly moving finish line now- this isn't a specialization btw, it's just an illusion.

to make this clearer- there are pvp games and games that pretend to be pve but the only real attraction is that you're able to INDIRECTLY flaunt your superiority in skill (the single largest pvp game appeal- that flaunt of skill over lesser skill). mmos should die because they can't specialize, and when they try to they're outdone by having to compete with seven other games; the farming simulator, the fps arena shooter, the tower defense, the moba, the rpg game, ect.

the only strength of an mmo is being a game-driven forum/hangout space to chill with and make friends. but in the end you're not playing games to make friends and MAYBE have fun playing a game- you're playing a game and MAYBE making friends. the true competitor with the mmo is not other games, but actually programs like discord.

But City of Heroes is up! I thought this was suppose to save mmo! That is what Yea Forums told me!

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trannies unironically ruined the community

>DPS
The fact this term stuck is the reason MMOs died, because it's embarrassingly stupid. "Hello. I'm a damage per second."
>are unnecessary, The trinity could have originally just been healers and tanks that just deal damage while tanking.
This is arbitrary. "The trinity" only exists, however it exists, because those are the three basic functions of a game where characters with health values fight to keep their health value up and the enemy's health value down. And, if the game has co-op (an MMO will), everyone is going to want to specialize in one of those skills, because a group of specialists is more efficient than a group of generalists. If you created an MMO that let players create their own classes, like an FFII Online where you just level stats and skills, people are going to intuitively recreate the trinity.

And you can say what you said about damage dealers, about healers and tanks. You don't "need" any of them.

That's not the symbol of medicine, that's the symbol of commerce.

So many people get this wrong. Just driving around your city you'll see so many pseudo-medical establishments with the incorrect staff of Aeschylus. It really outs who is a proper establishment and who didn't even bother to google search the proper symbol.

God I heard the music before I clicked the link.

When WoW had Vengeance tanking was so fucking fun, being main tank and shitting out ridiculous amounts of damage after surviving huge damage was the biggest power fantasy

but its not dead, i thought it was for the longest time till a freind told me to pick up pick related

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This is just my opinion, but I would consider a sandbox lets you change the game world to your liking, to a degree. Like star wars galaxies, the planets were large, and quest objectives were procedurally generated as you accepted a quest and approached. Players could build player housing nearly anywhere that wasn't in a city and reasonably flat. You'd have players building cities with fast travel ports, and crafting guilds would get together and buy a mansion from an architect and then put all of their NPC merchants in the new mall and have them sell their shit while they are off crafting or offline. Shit like that, where you have an impact on the game world. Theme park games are where you have no real impact on the world. You just go from area to area exploring and questing then moving on once you've outleveled it.

WoW over simplified everything

This is what killed MMOs. DPS players.

youtube.com/watch?v=lJStjooGRvA

My favorite thing about this video is that the black dudes costume is that his helmet is an outhouse.

in other words dota is a real game that people play for fun while people only play raids for the rewards. if devs fucked up and made a raid not drop any loot how many people do you think would do it just for fun before it was fixed?

unironically WoW started the true decline of the MMO genre.

Literally all people want is a WoW clone that isn't owned by blizzard. We want generic fantasy, we want obvious roles and classes, we want 3d 3rd person view, hell most of us probably want tab targeting. We just want it's shit to not be fucked by babymode gameplay elements, unimmersive cash shops and tyrannical SJW agendas. Maybe with updated graphics for 2004+15.

Why do you think rift was so popular until they homogenized every class and fired their art department?

The truth hurts, user.

>Literally all people want is a WoW clone that isn't owned by blizzard. We want generic fantasy, we want obvious roles and classes, we want 3d 3rd person view, hell most of us probably want tab targeting. We just want it's shit to not be fucked by babymode gameplay elements, unimmersive cash shops and tyrannical SJW agendas. Maybe with updated graphics for 2004+15.
so? Final Fantasy XIV?

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It has to have actually good art design instead of WoW's fucking garbage, too.

People don't want a WoW clone. That's why the 900 WoW clones all failed. The people want a Runescape clone that isn't a browser game. They want quests that feel like an adventure and a consistent world that isn't a themepark. They want options other than combat. They want a world they can interact with. They want something to do while skilling, multitasking.

Fishing in Runescape has been one of the best chatrooms while doing something beneficial in the game. Trading (Prior to the GE) was so full of life with places naturally becoming trading hubs with people calling out what they have or want. The world revolved around the players. With things like the GE, the players started to revolve around NPC non-interactions.

>healerfags believe these straw mans

>Forgetting the ERP role

I had lots of fun on PUP, especially post-75, can't get that feel on XIV.

Lack of RPG.

>in other words dota is a real game that people play for fun
As someone with 2500 hours in Dota, I can say with certainty that no one plays it for fun. They play it to prove they're better than other people.
>while people only play raids for the rewards.
I don't like raids, but that's sort of besides the point, you're just saying MMO gameplay is bad. That might be true, but Dota has had events that were PvE, and it was almost indistinguishable from an MMO.

>Literally all people want is a WoW clone that isn't owned by blizzard.
That's every post-2004 MMO besides WoW.

>Literally all people want is a WoW clone that isn't owned by blizzard
Which is a shame, the WoW system is so simplified and dull. I miss tibia honestly, there was no hand holding, pvp anywhere, dying had consequences, people actually socialized, quests weren't everywhere and they weren't stupid fetch quests, wars were great, etc

discord fags even more so but kinda yeah

the game is still incredible, still has 24 patches worth of content base building mission editor power customization ect

no content was ever removed, when something got updated the old version was left in and hidden somewhere (usually oro)

Im having a blast, solo or in teams

Story.

>Say words on global chat
>Some random guy gets offended by words what didn't do anything and reports you
>Get banned

>Ruin someone's gaming experience and fuckton of progress(at least month of it) just "for lulz" by abusing some game mechanics and legal cap in rules.
>Nothing happens because devs are idiots and didn't mention it in rules and when your "victim" tells people about your he will get even more bullied while you become some kind of celebrity.

Literally that grinds my gears, for small harmless shittalking and mocking people on chat you get banned. But no matter how much you cross the line in griefing and literally make people lose fuckton of progress, or just waste hours of time as long as your actions are not mentioned in game rules, nothing happens. And even if your victims will talk about you, everyone else is like "hurrr stop crying".

>It's just a game bruh, why u mad?
Well games are supposed to be entertaining but if some untouchable fucklords in game make me more frustrated after playing some game and I can't do anything with that because they found legal caps in game rules while calling them assholes will get me banned. I will just go play other games, and many people will do the same. That's what killed many MMO.

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Come home, Yea Forums

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The Holy Trinity only exists in games with cartoonishly inflated stats that only exist to exacerbate said Holy Trinity, and that's precisely why almost all MMORPGs are shit, WoW absolutely included.

>Every boss has 100,000,000,000,000,000HP and infinite MP (or their skills simply do not drain their own MP)
>Every attack they do deals instant-KO damage to anything that's not a tank
>Immune to 100% of statuses that aren't "Damage Status #1-9 (Poison, Bleed, Envenomed Wound, etc.)"
>They also move slow as shit, or are utterly immobile, and again, only exist to inflict massive damage onto a tank to justify the healer while having oceanic HP because you need to force the players to slowly whittle its cartoonish HP bar down

You could have had a raid attle wherein players need to reach the actual boss, who is fought in multiple phases while players need to actually battle tons of respawning enemies (who are all reasonably weak) that demand players find multiple ways to deal with an army of enemies AND the boss himself, but that would be GAY. We need to have The Ancient Evil Dragon Who Has Awakened to be a 3-hour slog to battle so that players think the fight was "SO EPIC" because they spent hours chipping away at it without even a modicum of strategic planning or thought.

WoW was the start of cancer. The genre is now in stage4, and FFXIV took the baton and is carrying it to the grave.

They're usually f2p with in-game purchases, gachas and mobile phones murdered them
Nowadays it's either just not profitable or they become shit because they try to compete with those mobile games and become too money-grabbing

Unironically this. I like to make my own adventure as I go not have my hand held the entire game

Koreans

But FFXI was nothing like that until its current dead husk of shell that it is today, which only started forming like 6 years ago.

But GW2 is more fun to play than WoW and FFXIV...

Stuff that removed social interaction killed it. Dungeon/raid finders and worse, cross server dungeon/raid finders are the biggest culprit.

I like a quick fuck

Pre-expansion content lull does not count. What are you a nigger? The only reason it even got a bunch of its subs seems to be because of the apparently shit expansion WoW got and a bunch of WoWfugees are now playing to get ready for Shadowniggers.

That implies the genre isn't very much alive.

Thinking it's all about fighting.
And designing content by either ramping it to 10 and only allowing super hardcore players to have a challenge or for casuals to play whenever

FFXIV had a good fix by being simple and fun if you wanted to play for an hour a day, but also added eureka for the psychopaths.

shantae is shovel ware trash

Boring ass combat and gameplay made even more boring by extremely long grinds that artificially inflate play time so the addicted nolifers aren't done in 1 week and start bitching. For instance, if you go look at videos of stuff like FF14 raids, it might look like fun and all, but when you play it's a whole other reality.
Sure the raid/boss fight itself is often a very fun experience if not the highlight of the game, but only the first time or couple of times through. Yet to get daily bonuses, top gear, mats and all that you'll be repeating shit all the time and it gets very boring very fast. Then you remember that before you can even get to the fun parts you also have a shitton more grinding to do, along with clearing a bunch of boring ass side missions, fetch quests, tutorials and boring missions that only serve as lore dispensers.

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>all pretend they are playing a game of skill and knowledge
>when the raid tranny asks you to post your logs as if anything in this game is an accomplishment or difficult
Insufferable autists can't 40% themselves soon enough

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How the fuck do you make 300M? Is it just crafting autism? Or is it luck and being the first crafter so you can force the market?

are you retarded?

I remember I used to play this little homebrew MMO. It was before WoW.
No one used terms like "tank" before WoW (in that game, maybe they were already doing it in other games that I didn't play.)

I found it kind of offensive to come back to it later and see everyone talking like that. Presumably thinking that way upped everyone's ability to play these games well but they changed the culture.
It was like... Well it wasn't "RP" before it was like you were in a chat room in a game and having fun with people.
Then after it was like you were doing your grinding job and you had co-workers too.

>Wildstar

>responding to a very obvious shitpost 2 hours late
you should be asking yourself that summer fag

RMT

FFXI wasn't like that, though. "Raids" were a small part of the game. It had content for people to do at every level and most of it was out in the open world. The second expansion pack even forced people to be lower levels. After the third expansion pack, which also added lots of casual content, SE got bad press due to the two hardest enemies in the games, so they nerfed them. The following expansion pack was the most casual of them all, focusing mostly on story and a neverending event of monsters raiding NPCs.

I think part of what makes MMOs stale is how devs fear exclusivity because of fan complaints. For instance, if there's some event that can give mythical gear, then everyone has to have access to it and everyone must be able to get the mythical gear, it can't be a limited number or have requirements that gatekeep people, everything has to be accessible for everyone always. This means a meta is created and it's the same for everyone, which then removes the need to actually explore and do different activities, all you do is whatever takes you quicker to the current meta builds so you can do whatever the new endgame content is.
The biggest issue to a dynamic world where not everyone can have everything is making it so new players have at least a chance at getting good stuff, rather than have day 1 hardcore fans loot everything the second it's up.

>No one used terms like "tank" before WoW
The term was coined before MMOs even existed.

Control / CC / Support focus

trying to larp as single player story driven games but really just using that to pipeline mandatory main sequence quests fueled by fetch quests and not developing any solid raid or pvp platforms as a result

That is why I clarified that no one was doing it in THAT game but maybe they were elsewhere.

FFXI post 2017 era is actually pretty fun

>black mage

Any role can exist. It depends on how the game functions. People think the trinity is this hardcoded thing because the games are made that way. Not that the games give you the trinity as options, but that the game's innate mechanics present problems that are solved by the trinity. If you don't like the trinity, don't make game mechanics that pose problems that ask for the trinity in order to solve them.

>Okay, so, you and the enemy have hit points and the objective is to lower the enemy's hit points to zero before your's hit zero.
Is it a group game?
>Yes.
Can we control who the enemy fights?
>Sure.
Okay. One guy is going to go all defense and everyone else is going to go all offense. The defender will force the enemy to fight him while the glass cannons lower its hit points. Open and shut case!
>Well, you can also recover health.
One guy will do that, then, instead.
>O-oh...

And then you can add a crowd controller by having the fights be against multiple enemies instead of one. Or you can add a buffer/debuffer by literally just putting buffs and debuffs in the game, having classes that specialize in them, and having enemies that always use them themselves. Or you can have the players rely on a resource that doesn't regenerate quickly, causing a lot of downtime, and thus you create a new class of "mana healers." The last two descriptions are what Red Mages, Bards and Corsairs were in FFXI. Everyone called them Support, while White Mage was just a tried and true Healer.

And you can do this with ANYTHING. Add or subtract from the basic game mechanics and that will add or subtract a class you can create to specialize in solving the problems presented by that game mechanic. The trinity is so universal, because it's so basic. Me health beat your health.

WoW, or rather convenience and endgame. Good mmos are about overcoming convenience through socialization, what made them worthwhile and long lasting were the relationships and ecosystem of playing with other people. As WoW made mmos more popular and introduced questing and other single player driven mechanics convenience fags got more of a voice. Thus new mmos are mostly just mmos in name where most players just sit in discord to do dungeons.

Maplestory 2

Difficult content and forcing teamwork.

The best part of playing a MMO is playing with your friend in a new scary zone where everything is out to get you and you meet some people along the way to make the journey a little less frightening.

Your character is a main character.

Your character should just be a adventure or soldier or something not the warrior of light super powerful guy or the champion of Azeroth.

Make a bunch of cool cities and make them matter.

Every main city should offer something so your forced to go there and not everyone afks in Stormwind

Favoring microtransactions to progress in the game instead of having any meaningful gameplay or story. You basically have lazy faggots and autists willing to spend hundreds to see their waifus dressed up in game to blame. Take away the super long grinding of newer MMOs and you get a story that's 2 hours long at best. F2P it takes hundreds of hours, paying makes it take about a quarter of the time and you get the swimsuits and other skimpy clothing too. Damn shame too because some of them actually have some decent combat, but having to run one dungeon 1500 times, 10 minute at the fastest, with a "reset time" on dungeons being another 10+ minutes to reach the next tier of gear, then another dungeon with the same process makes it feel more like a job than a game. Every single aspect is designed to be tedious. The crafting system with a decent chance of failure, losing all the crafting items when you do fail, waiting for fucking anything to happen whether it's an event, for enemies to spawn, for NPCs to walk halfway across the map to the destination, stamina bars that fill 30 times slower than you use them, etc. You can also blame a lot of Japs and Koreans for perpetuating this with net cafes and shit that they all go to for hours after school/work, and the net cafes always advertise these kinds of pay to progress games. Since they work so much too they think nothing of dropping a quarter of that day's pay on the game since they'll "make it back tomorrow", thus keeping the vicious cycle of dogshit games and greed sustained. This applies to way more than MMOs too, and mobile gaming where you authorize google or apple to charge you at the tap of your screen makes it even easier for them to drain people of their money while keeping up the bare minimum of "quality" in the product.

it's the opposite. the problem with mmos is that players beg for content that will let them stroke their epeen instead of devs focusing on content that's fun to play for everyone.

the same thing that kills every good game
if you want the big bucks, you have to lower the requirements to play for the lowest common denominators

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This is only the reality we see because devs make everything non-exclusive. The truth is that people will always find something to bitch about and so long as devs keep listening to it and remain afraid of more bitching things will not progress in this genre.

korea

Call me a faggot, poorfag or retard I don't care, but for me personally the thing that kills MMO's the most is:
>Subscription system
Why:
Subscriptions are an archaic pay model that were only acceptable when the games had a lot of players and no other forms of monetization/microtransactions
Today, your average MMO has one or more of the following, when in truth they only need 2 at maximum
>buy to play 1
Just buying the game once
>buy to play 2
expansions and dlc
>buy to play 3
unlocking more content or options in a f2p (such as charcter slots or more dungeons etc)

>pay to play 1
Regular subscription - most expensive out of all
>pay to play 2
"patron" mode, aka more exp and benefits in a f2p game
>pay to play 3
pay to upkeep certain property in game such as houses, farms, vehicles, guilds etc

>cash shop 1
purely cosmetic things
>cash shop 2
ability to trade cash shop currency (gw) or 'membership' bonuses (runescape) for in game money - this is borderline pay2win
>cash shop 3
ability to buy buffs, gear, new classes, mounts etc - all kinds of things that give an unfair advantage

Like I said earlier, there is NO excuse for an MMO to have more than two of the formerly mentioned.
Everything more is just pure greed.

It's not an MMO, but for example, shit like fortnite has massive mmo-like server fees, and they don't ask for a subscription or pay2win
It's only cosmetics as far as I know

You may argue that only the most succesful games can afford to "be fair" , but that brings me to my point:
The most succesful games don't usually do this.
They always monetize their game to the brim and games like WoW and FFXIV have no real reason to be as jewish as they currently are.

This is coming from someone who has played and paid for dozens of MMO games in the past 15+ years.
In the past, MMO's were never as greedy as they are today, this is specially true in the case of WoW, which has most of the monetization that I mentioned above

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Im a sneed chuck i like a quick fuck
I'll seed your feed sneed
i'll buy you a german truck

Duty Finder.

And it's a fucking mess

>Someone buys everything in a cash grab mmo
>W-where is the problem, sweetheart? It's like real life.

>Chat
>WTF, BRO, DUDE!?
>*banned*

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Growing up

{True Strike}

the point is that exclusive shit is only for epeen. imagine if only a few people could use the awp in counterstrike or pick certain characters in dota. making exclusive content won't make a game better, people wanting it is just a symptom of the game being trash that people only play to look down on others.

>complains about subs but also complains about cash shops
literal retard

So then how would combat go? Would things just randomly target people? Wouldn't that mean that every class needs to have an equal amount of survivability? Also wouldn't fighting waves of weak enemies as a boss just get really boring after a while?

There are good cash shops (cosmetic or QOL shit) and then there are bad ones (pay2win, advantages and literal buying in-game currency with IRL money)

>ree you can't complain about things that are shit!
ok, retard

Once again, your vision is based on the current reality of such things and twisted by the models at play. I dunno if you've ever played Nioh, but imagine a game where rather than the tonfa gun weapon skill being obtainable by all, only a couple players managed to get it through specific actions or events. Players that have it might be inclined to use tonfas now when they weren't before, or they might prefer to sell them, and if they do use it, they'll likely try to implement it's gimmick into their playstyle, creating a build that deviates from a premade global meta build.
If done properly, this incentives players to play different classes or play in ways they wouldn't have thought of before, and it moves in-game economy and trading, since some people might prefer to change their unique gear for other gear that better fits their style. I'm not just talking an exclusive golden skin for some gear, I'm talking differences that are actually reflected in gameplay.

Time and technology. Youtube basically killed all SP content except for meaningless grinding, while 3rd party chat software made the world smaller- basically no one talks to people who aren't in their Clan now.