Is MGS2 really as clever as people would have you believe...

Who even cares? It's not fun to play. I hope whoever thought it was a good idea to make MGS1's environments even more confined was fired

No its a pretty simple premise thats slightly smarter than half the other shite videogames out there.
It more speaks volumes of how bad other video games stories are. As clanky and melodramatic as MGS2 it at least seemed to try to have something creative.

If you had issues understanding the plot you're a genuine retard however.

>people still don't care/know about Fukushima writing pretty much all the good stuff in MGS and Kojima mostly writing retarded things

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MGS 2 have lot twists for such short game. I finished it 6 hour. But when you Jack The Ripper end naked and Colonel starts to glitch, game break 4th wall. I almoust stopped there because it felt insane. MGS V have no plot twists after first 30 minutes.

It's another "come argue with a bunch of faggot contrarians" thread. This game was talked about to death almost ten years ago. Anyone who would want to defend its reputation in the past has long since gotten bored with the subject. So yeah sure, it's just a meh story. If you didn't played this game when you were 13 you will never understand.

It was extremely ambitious for the time. I think it's pretty difficult for young'uns to grasp the context in which it was released, so they will naturally believe it is simpler by today's standards.

>It predicted

Except it wasn't, it was a possibility already studied by a shitload of writers long before mgs2. But for the average gamer faggot only experiencing the world through mediocre video games I guess it did felt "new" and "avant-garde".

Today I will remind them

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Brainlets SEETHING

I thought it was fairly clever, but whether or not you enjoy it is subjective. I remember playing it and the gameplay was fun but by the end I was getting annoyed because story wise it seemed to be just an obtuse rehash of the first game. Which is the point, and the end of the game made me appreciate that.
Then there's the whole Patriot spiel about technology and the internet which was surprisingly prescient but I would say while it's thematically important to the plot, the reactions you see to it are more "WHOAH DUDE SO DEEP LMAO" than appreciation for the clever plotting.

not a prediction.... A prophesy

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stfu kojimbo

>it was a possibility already studied by a shitload of writers long before mgs2
name some examples

>But for the average gamer faggot only experiencing the world through mediocre video games I guess it did felt "new" and "avant-garde".
You're giving too much credit to the education system in a vast number of countries if you think it's only an issue with gamers.

Shit like 1984 wouldn't be brought up if it wasn't a meme. Most people people who bring it up haven't read the book and are just vaguely familiar with the story to know the end result, but miss the point entirely. Even fewer can actually explain what the fuck "Orwellian" is; instead just taking it to mean Authoritarian state.

This is a problem with the first world population itself. Be thankful our god, kojimbo, even decided to remind us of these topics.

Yes it's really an incredible game

Fukushima wrote side codecs and kojima wrote the dialogue in cutscenes, main codecs, and story planning.

Dunno about books other than 1984 but I remember Brazil and good night and good luck talking about mass control and the weight of the medias/ the system.

I really don't understand why people unironically think that MGS2 was trying to be "clever" or pretencious. It has a fairly straight-forward, pretty fucking great plot and a nice set of characters.

My biggest complaint about MGS2's story is that that's all it really amounts to. It doesn't work as a narrative because all of the buildup and characterization just devolves into author soapboxing at the end of the game. I don't care if that was the point or not, it doesn't make it enjoyable when you just cast aside most of the interesting plot threads to say something about memes or whatever. What went on to make Liquid possess Ocelot's hand? What happened to Fortune? What would Solidus have done had he survived? All things I'll never know because Kojima is a hack

>creating context speech

literally predicted twitter/social media doing that. see: DRUMPF BAD spam daily.

It correctly anticipated the concept of government top-down control of information in a digital age and how the government would attempt to manipulate it while all the while portraying it in an overall comprehensive narrative. Pretty damn good, in all senses.

>possibly already studied
what the fuck, so you've only taken a contrarian stance on this, without having anything to back it up but saying "possibly"? This is just a giant stroke of the ego for you, pretending you're more intelligent than others for seeing something that you don't actually see or know because you haven't read up on it.

Seriously? Fuck me, everything is a pissing contest, huh.

MGS2 wasn't entirely written by Kojima that's pretty much entirely why the story is good. It was before his ego got big.

>What went on to make Liquid possess Ocelot's hand? What happened to Fortune? What would Solidus have done had he survived?

Firstly I want to say that not every single question needs to be answered, and it's that kind of mentality that actually gives shit sequels and other unnecessary events. Fortune literally gets shot at the end so she's probably dead, also because Solidus is dead? Genuinely the most retarded thing I've read today.

based retard

let not your heart be trouble , it just like kojima prophesied.
contrarian just cant help themselves

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Not an argument

Nah we just all called you out for being retarded

Read the first line again faggot

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>What went on to make Liquid possess Ocelot's hand?
Supposed to be classic MGS1/2 spoopy shit that was explained in 3 and then retconned and reexplained in 4.

>What happened to Fortune?
Dead, but the end implication was that he luck was to some extent indeed real and thus the assumption it was all tech was misplaced.

>What would Solidus have done had he survived?

He clearly stated his plan. He wanted to give Arsenal to Dead Cell to let them serve as bait while he'd use the Patriot Locations on Raiden's body to kill the patriots. The EMP'd Manhattan would be the basis for Outer Heaven

MGS2 had its issues but your criticisms aren't among them. Try again.

>still no argument

>still can't into reading properly

The whole shitting on the concept of sequels while also being an enjoyable sequel thing was a clever idea for a game.

>he's still doing it

"Possibly already studied" has a different meaning than "it was a possibility already studied" you gigantic Faggot.

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It's one of the games people will bring up to defe'd "vidya gaems are art/deep/xyz".

unironically one of the best games ever and probably the best movie game ever made

Big Shell is the best setting in the series 2nd to Shadow Moses. Only tasteless plebs shit on it for being "boring". Artistically sublime, gameplay has a really good flow through it.

MGS1 and 2 did locations best, the metroidvania approach, forcing you to become familiar with the setting made for a more immersive experience.

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Deus Ex did it better and its just a better video game than this soulless movie.

>predicted the flood of information from social media becoming incomprehensible noise that destroys society
>books other than 1984 but I remember Brazil and good night and good luck talking about mass control and the weight of the medias/ the system
>Fallout, it's like Skyrim with guns -IGN

I was more interested in those questions than I was in whatever the fuck it was they thought would hold my interest with those codec calls in Arsenal Gear. That is the criticism I was making. They set up all these elements and then did not follow through on them in favor of pointless meme theory babble

Then you're an idiot considering every codec call and cutscene from Ames onward is absolutely jam packed and interesting as fuck. And fortune is the worst character in the game. All the elements were followed up on and brought together very well at the end, it's done well.

>edgy
dude what

They answered your questions in the shorter cutscene exchange and you're butthurt the codec calls were more detailed. Yeah, okay.

Other than the exact nature of how Liquid's possession worked, you were treated to (at the time) fairly concrete answers.

You're also missing the forest for the trees. The broad point was that you could manipulate a set of people to do or believe anything, including an unwitting agent. The basic principle of the S3 plan was that you could theoretically b& the right people into doing anything, including b& the right people into replicating a simulacrum of Shadow Moses. The fact that you can't recognize that despite the fact that it was explained in detail to you by the original story is honestly pretty sad and almost illustrative of the story.

I would say it's clever in a way but not entirely original as people would like to act like it is. It hits on a lot of themes about the information age and influencing/controlling a populace, and the way it is all revealed in the game is pretty well done, but I admit people overrate it quite a bit

youtu.be/fLF53T4eHWY
It's definitely clever

This. I thought it was a deep postmodern work of art. Then I actually read some postmodern literature like DeLillo and Pynchon and realized oh, shit, I've been playing with children's toys for years and thought they were meaningful, but there's a whole incredible world out there that games like MGS2 don't even scrape, they're not even in the same universe in terms of quality.

I completely understood the point of the game. I don't understand what it has to do with what we were talking about other than the fact that I didn't give a fuck about the S3 bullshit. I didn't care, it didn't matter in the end. I cared about what was being built up to in the rest of the game, and whatever answers the game had were not conclusive enough for the kind of narrative it was trying to be.

The characters and story being merely pawns to prove a soapbox point makes it barely an actual story. That's what I'm getting at.

I agree. Loved it. Great music too, so eerie and "off". Fucking love this game.

If you've walked away from MGS and walked away with a broader point than "smart people try to impose their philosophy on the world despite individual flaws" I heartily suggest you write and sell a bestselling book. Your "points" seem to be nitpicks over answers that were at least supersficially explained -and sometime explained in context- and thus reek of bullshit.

Chadjima, a survivor of the Osorubeki Kantoku project.

fucking insectoids

Even the terminology was pretty similar. I have to revisit the speech again but I think they used either echo chambers or safe spaces a lot
Nobody wants to fucking actually debate with anyone. People log in into their special places only to seek comfort and validation over their retarded points

Well let me put it this way: why should we care about anything that Raiden or Snake do during the game? According to the game itself, we shouldn't, because we're just being given a tour ride through the conventions we expect from a video game story with no real meaning or context for them. Just look at how inconsequential Emma was. As a result, I can't derive any enjoyment from the game's story, because it's all worthless fluff. The questions I was asking have to do with the meta-narrative of the MGS series, which as a whole is more interesting than anything that happens in MGS2. And that's why not having conclusive answers to them feels like a letdown. Stuff like that felt like the only part of the game that mattered.

Lol, the internet was already becoming a big booming cesspool of 'information' by the time this game released, it didn't predict things as much as assume that what was already starting to happen would exponentially and logically get worse.
Not to mention these ideas on the digital age, a shadowy organization pulling all the strings, and the idea of them stringing people along like puppets isn't some unique thing first done in MGS2 and nowhere else.

Not him but snake was never part of the tour during big shell. He's far from inconsequential and he makes raiden doubt at every single turn. It's meant to be watched in retrospective along with how AI colonel tries to shut him off from raiden's mind at every chance he gets

It was pretty clear in terms of what it's core message was, although as people have said, Kojima wasn't making any new observations-- He just brought these academic ideas into the public conscious. The game is well made though from a technical standpoint, and is historically important For arguably being the first postmodern video game.

Moving away from story, the game has problems with subpar level design and everything from Emma's rescue up until you enter Arsenal Gear being the low point of the entire game.

He played into it anyway, though. The one part of the time Snake does something that really ends up mattering in MGS2's story is when he decks Raiden and leaves him naked in the room that resembled the prison in Shadow Moses

Raiden wouldn't have taken solidus' heli without snake though. His interventions are vital even if they're not flashy. He's also there with otacon to help emma (who someone said is irrelevant) to plant the bug
I don't know why people try to write parts of the story or characters as meaningless. If you can't see how the AI failed to create context every time someone intervened then I don't know what to say

>What would Solidus have done had he survived?
Why would the game need to answer this? He explains what he plans to do, but is stopped by Raiden

People don't want to accept the game was as clever and smart as it is because it hurts their ego.

In France I have access to high speed internet and unlimited data for 26€/months.

I can't stop laughing at amerimutts.

>internet already existed and already had group think
>humans being tribalistic is fucking obvious to anyone who's been around for five seconds
It didn't predict shit.

isn't France basically a 3rd world country now?
youtube.com/watch?v=78cUAVjILeo

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I'm new to this (and it's crazy fun), do the soldiers wake up if I choose to knock them out instead of kill them after grappling them? and do they wake up from tranq bullets?
I heard the two V games take place between 3 and 4, so after this I'll play 4 and then three. Should I play Peacewalker for Paz's story?

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you should have started with 3.

You got it all wrong, just play the games in release order