Subtly destroys every RPG

Compass, yes. Compass indicators no, compass waypoints hell no.

>saves* every RPG
If you actually enjoy searching for hours the road to your objective, you must have brain damages.

If takes you hours to find a road in a game then you must not have a brain to begin with.

Well said homie Todds games always the best

are there even any games where you use compass?

Worst is when people spout "lmaooo just turn the quest markers off, bro!"
Problem is the games are still designed around quest markers. Nobody gives you detailed directions on where to go because the quest markers are already there, and it still doesn't change the fact that like 99% of all quests have turned into simple dungeon-crawl fetch quests as a result of this system.

Funny thing now about skyrim is that all the best quests in the game are now from mods.

If Starfield is spacekino I will unironically praise Todd. I've had a Mass Effect-sized hole in my life for almost a decade now, and I'd like to recapture the feeling. On the other hand, if it in any way resembles SkyrimInSpace I'll shitpost about it until the end of time for the creative bankruptcy and missed opportunity it represents

>play botw
>need to go to kakariko village
>game actually gives you detailed directions so you can find it without quest markers

Attached: 1553603542775.png (225x258, 149K)

>Skyrim
>RPG
It's a TPS you fucking retard. Unless you mod the shit out of it and add RPG mechanics.

So what's wrong with this?

voiced protagonist has done more damage

This. In Morrowind there are even detailed signs directing to to all the main settlements in Vvardenfell wherever 2 roads meet. If someone tells you to go somewhere you just have to follow the signs, reach the settlement and ask an NPC for directions.

I feel like botw has one of the best map systems I've seen in modern games. It lets you discover and learn for yourself instead of giving you a bunch of icons on a map. It really makes exploring really rewarding and fun.

instead of quests designed around using quest description, investigation skills, dialogue and rumors to find an objective, the game kills the immersion and spoonfeeds it to you with the compass right away.

BotW came out around the time I wanted to try Just Cause 2, I started the latter, got a hundred objectives all over the map at the start, dropped that shit and went back to the former

if your idea of gameplay is having your eyes fixated on a marker for two hours and playing a balancing act with your sticker to keep it in the middle of a bar, then nothing is wrong with it.

Attached: qwop.jpg (474x296, 18K)

Just Cause 2 is a great game, just not for the story missions

And to be fair, there are mods in Skyrim that overhaul the objective descriptions to include enough detail to make it possible to find the locations without quest markers. But that still doesn't change the fact that quests have been simplified to "go here, clear out bandit cave, grab ebin l00t, report back"

My favorite quests are the ones where you have to do some investigating. Skyrim still had a small handful of quests that did this decently (I remember the forsworn conspiracy being pretty good) but it was so much less than before. Even Fallout 3 did a better job, like with the first half of its main quest where there are a bunch of different ways to find clues on your dad's location

>subtly

Quest markers, fast travel and mini maps render open world rpg's as redundant.

Why yes, I indeed always wark to a quest marker in a perfect 0 degree angle. How could you tell?

Attached: eDQvTAB.jpg (1080x1331, 97K)

yeah it does seem as if Oblivion introduced quest markers to make navigating easier and quicker, then Skyrim introduced a shitload of fetch quests to give quest markers a purpose. In a way having quest markers isn't inherently a bad thing but it is stupid if your objective is to talk to an NPC you've never met and the marker will take you to their exact location at any time of day. I wouldn't mind if the NPC who gives you the quest tells you to speak to someone in a particular city and you get a quest marker once you're close enough to the city.

I think compass indicators are okay if you set them yourself, but otherwise I agree. I mean there's nothing wrong with being told an objective is to the northwest by an NPC and them sticking a NW indicator in your compass, so that you keep the approximate direction of the objective in mind if the route you take turns you around or something.

wait, I mean you only get the quest marker outside the city. once inside you have to search for the NPC

It's unfortunate that every potentially interesting location in BOTW ends up just being yet another copy-pasted shrine. Hopefully the sequel has some real exploration.

>Be me.
>Loved the way Morrowind dealt with guiding you. With written instruction that forced you to learn the world and get immersed.
>Oblivion comes out and throws all that "immersion" shit out the window in favor for braindead gameplay to help the lowest common denominator.
>Spend game following dumb arrow thingy
>Think: "Hey I can just mod it, remove the compass and I'm good."
>As soon as it's removed there is ZERO instruction from anyone telling you where to go.
>Grrrrr.jpg
>Turn dumb compass back on.

Attached: file.png (873x657, 392K)

That's how I think it should ideally be as well. Quest markers showing a general vicinity on where to look for something/someone. IIRC, of all games, MGSV did this correctly.
And yeah, quest markers aren't necessarily bad in and of themselves. It's just that they're most often either used to compensate for bad quest design, or their inclusion leads to the designers' quest design falling afterwards.

It's the same way I feel about bonfire warping in the Dark Souls games. DaS1 didn't have bonfire warping, and it's metroid-style interconnected world map was the best in the series. The sequels have bonfire warping right from the start, and those games had much worse world design. I'm not sure if bonfire warping was included in those games to make up for the shit level design, or if having bonfire warping resulted in them giving less attention to making the world connect properly, but either way, the result is the same.

>copy-pasted
All the puzzles are unique. Combat test shrines are copy-pasted but I'm not sure what the ratio is between these two types.

>I hate this feature
>You can disable
>Wtf this isn't how it works go kys
¿¿¿

>Where do I need to go?
>I've marked the location on your map
>Turn off marker
>Can never finish quest

>open world

into trash it goes

Zoomer, please. Before marked quests you had to give real directions in questlines. I know its hard to imagine. Disabling them in modern games is pointless as you literally have no other way of finding where a quest is.

If you disable it you won't know where to go because NPCs don't give you any directions and neither does the quest journal. Judging from your inability to understand the design choices made, you are exactly the type of person compass and map markers were made for.

Are you retarded? If a quest is designed around the use of quest markers, just disabling the markers themselves doesn't magically undo the way the quests were designed around them.

This is like saying the solution to Skyrim's excessive use of essential unkillable NPCs is to just use a mod to make them all killable. Except that doesn't solve the problem because the game still isn't scripted to take any of their deaths into account and reflect it in the dialogue/quests/etc, so you just break the game.

ITT: People pretending that they read what npcs says

And even if you did know where to go, it still doesn't stop the fact that designing quests around quest markers just results in quests all being tedious dungeon-crawl fetch quests instead of the type of oldschool quests where you'd have to figure things out, talk to various NPCs around towns trying to piece together information, and so on.

zoomers don't read/listen to what NPCs say because they know they just need to follow the big quest marker.

Me too, bro. I also check every wikipedia article available before playing a game.

Attached: 1546867933961.png (859x960, 327K)

That's because zoomers are a generation of illiterates.

Was fine at first but then it became a never-ending series of "GO INTO DRAUGR DUNGEON FOR X" quests.

Shit became so dull.

Attached: 420.jpg (995x933, 87K)

They're not. There are plenty of videos on youtube how zoomers discover that vidya can be something more than following an arrow.

Witcher 3 is the only modern rpg outside of crpgs that bother to put any effort into its quests. The whistling magic horse meme is a good laugh but there is legit so much you can miss in the quests, a lot of clues and things you can do that are not written out that lead quests to their real ending.

from software is the only dev making RPGs without minimaps and map markers
yet Yea Forums hates them

cd projekt makes generic shit with arrows and smell trails telling you where to go at all times
and Yea Forums loves them

>Zoomers have more information at their fingertips than any generation before it
>Can literally read any book in the world, at any time, on their phone.
>"illiterates"
Sure bud.

I was talking more about the 'reward' shrines, like at the end of the labyrinths and stuff. I don't mind the puzzle ones but when you've gone way out from the nearest road and think you might have discovered something cool, like some lore about the world, new characters, a mini-boss, something, and it's just a shrine that gives you an upgrade that stops mattering after the first 20.

>from software
>making RPG's
soulshit is not rpg

What would you do if you're Todd? Would you stay in Bethesda despite the shitty management, or would you leave and abandon the IP you've created? or maybe join CDPR and create the ultimate openworld game

Both symptoms of the DUDE HUGE MAP LMAO meme. Thar larger you make your map, the more you'll have to start making concessions in game design to fill it full of shit for the player to do. There is definitely a happy medium between making a world big enough for the player to be immersed in and a world small enough for the devs to reasonably design with quality content

>Except that doesn't solve the problem because the game still isn't scripted to take any of their deaths into account and reflect it in the dialogue/quests/etc, so you just break the game.
But that's exavtly how this issue is resolved in Morrowind and you fags never complain about that. Games are always going to have limitations of this sort, since it's impossible to take literally every single possibility into account when designing a questline.

I think one of the reasons they stopped doing the instructions was because it would require them to put more though into their map design.

>Can literally read any book in the world, at any time, on their phone.
>spend time watching twitch whores instead
illiterate and sad.

This implies that Todd has a different vision for his games than what Bethesda creates. He's not like Kojima getting hamstrung by Konami or anything like that. He's the one leading the way in the simplification and automation of his game design so that they're all turned into generic looter-shooter time sinks with infinite radiant quests.

>There are plenty of videos on youtube how zoomers discover that vidya can be something more than following an arrow.
What are these videos? Is it like all this "Dark Souls [X boss] reaction!!!!!" shit?

Only with a few of them that were actually vital to the game. Skyrim went above and beyond in how it made pretty much every single named NPC unkillable.

EverQuest from 1999

If you're so fixated on being able to kill people maybe you should consider getting some help.

you clearly is one, because in the past people would just use a walkthrough

>spend time watching twitch whores
Oh so by zoomers you mean literally children. Okay, gotcha, you're retarded.

Man, I always had this idea, maybe it's too involves, but what if like instead of it autofilling or getting pieces when you unlocked a tower, you had to reach a scenic spot and kind of pencil it in on a map, maybe the closer you got to matching the visual the more detailed the map became, or the more times you tried plus the level of detail. You could even implement a system whereby writing certain things in would activate easter eggs or cheat codes or other fun things.

Attached: maxresdefault (12).jpg (1280x720, 46K)

>I've had a Mass Effect-sized hole in my life for almost a decade now, and I'd like to recapture the feeling
>with a Bethesda game
do not

Attached: 1492744518080.jpg (718x705, 58K)

Whether or not NPCs can be killed is a barometer for how competent an RPG is, because having them killable being the game is going to be scripted to take certain deaths into account and change things up accordingly. See: New Vegas.

well, glad you're at least self-aware, zoomie.

So it's just an issue of arguing what arbitrary number of unkillable NPCs is acceptable in your opinions. The "issue" still stands and it's present in just about every RPG ever released.

>avoid reading by reading
no john, you are the zoombie

>old mechanic good
>new mechanic bad
If you can give a better reason than “it makes the game easier” i will not consider you a faggot OP

Having a few major NPCs vs literally almost every single named NPC. Yes, it makes a difference.

And millenials throw actual money at patreon whores. They're even worse

>that study that describes how this type of map lowers grey matter in the brain
Fucking hell dude, I just wanted to play video games

Attached: no fun.jpg (942x1080, 102K)

Persona Q had this

All I want is for the map to not have magic markers telling me where I and other things are so I have to figure it out from landmarks and descriptions.

Like any other game system, magic markers break immersion. The less between the games world and you the better. When you're made to pay attention to landmarks and quest directions you are forced to engage with that world. When you pay attention to mini maps and quest markers you are engaged with the games systems, not its world.

Go into an open world game, Skyrim, Witcher, Kingdom Come. Remove the hud, it becomes noticable right away how much more engaging it is the less 'clutter' you have. Quest markers is just one of the many pieces of clutter that are put into a lot of games, and its why if you look at any modding scene those that minimize or remove HUD elements are always highly popular.

you have a point.

Attached: 1497300842423.jpg (350x371, 19K)

The way he's talked about ship modularity/management makes me believe this is possible

Play an actual rpg then

Attached: 7E0771F1-986F-4EAE-8949-D7A92ECF54E9.jpg (640x869, 223K)

Attached: outward-pc.jpg (800x800, 150K)

I would if the controls weren't so shit. This is something you have to grow up with because trying to pick it up now is borderline impossible. Morrowind's controls still hold up well enough that it's still playable, but Daggerfall is just a mess.

>466820698
controls are fine

Is this any good?

>of all games, MGSV did this correctly
It really did actually. I first played it on Xbox 360 without any patches so I don't know if other versions had this issue (although it sold like shit on 360 so probably not). whenever an NPC told me exactly where to find something, in which building, the game would tell me map info updated but it wouldn't give me the marker. I stupidly thought I wouldn't be able to find the thing without forcing an NPC to tell me (like it just wouldn't spawn), so I kept doing this and then just searching for the thing anyway without a marker. It was actually fun but once I realized this was a glitch the actual system was even better.

To be frank, modern NPCs have terrible writing and VA is horrible every other time.

Yeah its pretty great for the price

>modern NPCs have terrible writing and VA is horrible every other time.
Thats because they're getting their lines from clickbait articles, at least old timey propaganda was well written

You can set the controls to play just like Morrowind with the exception of having to move your mouse to swing your weapon. Sure the controls are a bit clunky but they’re not bad

VTMB's hub based system was so well done that you didn't even need the map 90% of the time. And maps were in fixed locations on bus stations so you couldn't keep bringing it up every 2 seconds and had to remember where to go

Its a bit easy mode when a quest says "Go behind the drug store" and the entire game area is a single street with six buildings, one of which marked drug store.

>praising toucan sam fetch quests

Attached: children.png (527x3702, 2.13M)

That is BotW's entire idea around it's open world... that is what the towers are for, to be visible in the distance as a form of visual anchor, they give you a topological map of that zone (no icons though and no names for landmarks unless discovered), as well as a high spot to look down to to seek out interesting stuff.

The towers are also in strategic locations where you can see a LOT of stuff from. Then you can look at an object in the distance, place a marker and the map will automatically set a map marker there.

Side quests also have no marker to your goal... only to the quest giver that TELLS you where to look. You have to figure out the rest yourself.

Same goes for recipes... there is no notebook for them. When you find a description for a recipe /every inn has some in the form of posters), write down a note or make a screenshot yourself.

Unless you're on a corpse run, in which case you just spam /loc.

compass/minimap waypoints works for games where players would be navigating a maze of some sort(such as GTA:SA where the majority of movement is through driving on roads) as the challenge of finding the objective would depend on the player being able to find the correct the path and he could be put into a position where said waypoint is a stonethrow away, but is forced to back track or otherwise move past it as any direct way of moving there is blocked. The maps and player movement aren't designed with making the waypoints somewhat less intuitive to use so it makes searching for a bandit hideout trivial.

Attached: EQoverworldlol.jpg (1010x539, 113K)

I don't understand this notion.
Most quest mods are utter shit, there are like three fucking mods like wheels of lull that are good.
Most quests are shittier than did like blood on ice by far.

Dying for skinner boxes, retard?

There is a 0% chance you didn't miss a ton of shit in a Witcher 3 quest because you were blindly following the quest log or your toucan vision. That pasta is funny but clearly originally made by a retard who either didn't play the game or didn't pay attention.

But this shit is 50% of my problem. It's impossible to get lost

Attached: zelda-botw-tingle-20.jpg (1000x563, 83K)

A good gameworld doesnt need to take away the quest marker to make you engage with it. Sure i followed quest markers to the dungeon in skyrim but i cant count hiw many times i got distracted and wandered off or how many times i just went out to explore. A good game world attracts exploration with being good and not by taking away you quest marker

Vertical level design obliterates compass. Obsidian did this with Vault 34 and Dead Money so you could use your brain while playing.

>A good gameworld doesnt need to take away the quest marker to make you engage with it.
Non-argument. Getting rid of clutter always improves engagement. It turns okay worlds good, good ones great. The only possible way you could disagree with that statement is if you've literally never tried playing hudless.

>Not understanding the simple concept of tunnel vision
Glad you brainlets aren't designing games, oh wait you are because every game is full of fucking UI clutter, markers and garbage quest objective lists.

Skyrim >>>>>>>>>>> Breath of the Wild.

that's not even the point we're discussing, dumbass.

>SkyrimPrefs.ini
>bShowCompass=0
Repaired.

At least you can find collectable stuff in Skyrim that aren't just shrines and koroks

why is is so hard to use roadsigns like piranha bytes does?

sid meier's pirates treasure maps are dope for that.

I think peak location kino is Morrowind. I wish all quests and locating worked like that.

>ton of shit
Like fucking what?
A bonus dialog with jokes about tits?
Or 30 bonus gold?
Also, that pasta is totally accurate. Pretty much every quest is a fetch one (including one-way "go talk to a guy") with some decisive battles near completion.
And if you stumble upon some deadend you absolutely must use those witcher senses because without it a shield on the wall that opens secret passage is not interactable.

Not really, there are easily enough unique assets to locate stuff, it's not that hard.
And at worst you can make it so that map markers activate once you are in a range of 10 meters near them or something so you locate most of the road but exact location is mapped.

How exactly does being more exposed to a boring lifeless world make it better?

the game is designed around the quest markers. rather than designing quests in a way where you can use the environment/game itself to find your objective, the game is designed around blindly running in the direction your quest marker tells you to.

TES is for literal brainlets

I think it still misses basic map. Like, you should be able to look at one and see where a basic location like that Vivec city is before you travel there.

if you actually think another system would work with Skyrim without completly changing other aspects of the game then you're a brainlet

>gothic 2 and Morrowind are still pinnacle of open world RPGs
>they were released 17 years ago
This industry is fucked. We're constantly go back not forward.

Attached: 1485757962589.png (800x581, 888K)

So you're saying make Skyrim but not shit? Aye, also a solution.

no shit almost everyone seems to think the real problem is how the game is totally designed around following quest markers

>without completely changing other aspects of the game
Well that's what people are asking for, more involved quest design and a world designed around it

Attached: bethesda.png (624x495, 322K)

Dead Money was fully kino. One of the best things I've ever played.

>Skyrim is unfixable
Thanks for acknowledging it

>You can't make the game not shit
Incredible

unironically assassins creed odyssey

Why did so many people hate it anyway?

>other aspects
Like absolute idiots being target audience? Legit claim.
Otherwise, it's false: every location is either close to a road or some landmark like "the only one hill in the middle of hotsprings valley" or "a waterfall near bridge on the road between X and Y"

it really had a different tone than the rest of the game. I didn't dislike it, but it was a little weird at first.

Outward has a really good map system. It doesn't mark your location. It makes you use the landmarks to guess your position like a real map

Attached: 662px-Outward_chersonese_montcalm_clan_fort_location.jpg (662x663, 85K)

>It doesn't mark your location
It's kinda funny how this is a feature in every game, you just have this GPS tracking your character. I'll definitely have to check out Outward at some point, I saw it a while ago and it seemed like it uses a lot of concepts I've been thinking about for a long time

t. different guy

>A bonus dialog with jokes about tits?
>Or 30 bonus gold?
Or entire paths you can miss by not thinking things through, or by making stupid choices. There are tons of quests with extra paths you miss because the game marks it as complete. An abandoned village for example will ghouls in it, you get tasked to clear it out, but if you investigate the entire village not just the area it sends you too, you find evidence of another monster which leads you to another fight. Other examples being not finding the real murderer in the city, not uncovering why the lighthouse is haunted, etc etc. I'm not going to autistically list them all.
>B-But they only result in different dialogue, or a few extra lines!
That's the entire game and you're splitting hairs thinking you'd get something else.
>That pasta is accurate, every quest is a fetch quest
Aside from all the quests investigations that can lead to one or more different combat encounters, or the quests involving speaking to various people to undercover something, or the quests involving Gwent, horse riding, fist fighting, duels, etc. But I guess none of those count, after all every other game/rpg made lets you do countless different activities, and you're going to list them right? Gonna list those games for me? Surely video game quests don't all boil down to fetching something, looking for and fetching something, or fighting something, do they?
>You have to use your witches senses before you can interact with shield on a wall to open passages
That's literally the only legit complaint you've had, and even THAT falls flat. Lets take a random quest, a blood and wine one, and remove witcher senses. Part of the quest has to looking through a room, various objects have to be interacted with such as a broken mirror, some shit on a table, a candle holder etc. Without witcher senses you are still wandering around till you get a big interact button which would signal its usable. So either way you are getting your hand held.

Of course, because Skyrim like many other old timey set rpgs are 90% forest. What the fuck are they going to say? "Go find X its in the forest". Nigger, everything if a forest.

anyone falling for this bait should leave

Faggy shit, and a poor, lazy design choice. There is nothing fun about having to find your way on a map like that. If the devs gave a shit (Which they didn't) you'd be able to physically mark the map like Ultima Underworld.

it's ok, 6 or 7 out of a 10 for most people. Definitely a good game considering it was made by 10-12 people as their first proper open world rpg. Hopefully they will take what they learned and improve on everything for the next game while keeping the core concept the same.

Mankind Divided had and directions locations in dialogue. I did a playthrough with no markers once.

That's pretty lame optional content.
When it comes to fetch quest quantity - sure, I forgot things like Gwent or fistfights actually existed. I'll correct myself every quest is either a fetch quest or a sort of a minigame.
That may be an exception or a thing they patchef in that addon. I'm absolutely positive in thevmain game things like that were not interactable before you highlight them with vision. Shit like canles that do nothing were, but not hidden levers or similiar quest-related things.

Are you the guy who kept screaming during Bethesda's conference?

Its far easier to do with a city based game, you can't always give good directions when its just endless wilds. A few quests in Witcher does but generally most of them just say "Go east" and then rely on the quest marker.
>That's pretty lame optional content.
Yeah shit game, sidequests should include at least 40+ hours of extra content each when you do them right.
>I'm absolutely positive in thevmain game things like that were not interactable before you highlight them with vision.
I did a another playthrough just last week and its still there. I only have two complaints with the witcher, its that the senses aren't at all optional (Even if they were I don't think the game would be very playable without them, as a lot of tracks are not noticable without) and the absolute shit sound design for npc chatter, so much repeating.
>Every quest is a fetch quest or minigame
Or comat, but you can literally say that about every single game that ever has or ever will exist. How on earth is it complaint? Not only are you arguing that 'this game plays like the game it is', which is like complaining every single match in a football game involves playing football, you are willfully ignoring the amount of choice and optional routes in sidequests, and the sheer quality of the writing and little stories they tell. The side content in Witcher 3 ranges from a small contract to larger ones with mysterys, from a small fetch quest to ones involving multiple characters, from a small combat encounter to entire full blown tournament that involves multiple gameplay systems, choices and monster encounters.

Meanwhile in other popular rpgs you get a piece of paper that tells you go clear out another cave full of draugr, which in the Witcher are just POI nodes.

well
>Goblins are extinct in skyrim thanks to falmer raids in the 4th era
>giant population decreased due to bounties upon their heads and the later destruction of their new home given by "im not boethiah guys, im simply a lonely dunmer girl who trolls malacath"
>Fourth Orsinium is located in Skyrim side of the jerall mountains but bethesda probably cut it due to PS3 hardware being a utter nigger
>All ruins in skyrim are smaller due to years of plundering, Labyrinthian as we see now is just a crumbling ruin compared to the large complex of the 3rd era probably because we killed the twin guardians

really, skyrim is fucked and tamriel is probably worse.